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Doodle
16-Dec-07, 20:01
1st generation black labradoodle puppies for sale, house reared both parents familly pets with ex pedigree,s both parents can be seen. Ready to go early jan Im for more details.

labsrus
17-Dec-07, 22:49
Have the parents been hip scored and eye tested under the KC health scheme?

Julia
17-Dec-07, 23:02
How can the parents have excellent pedigrees if what you are selling is a mixed breed which the Kennel club does not recognise and will not (and never will) register? I just don't understand how someone can pay hundreds of pounds for what is essentially a mongrel.

dragonfly
19-Dec-07, 14:37
grrr [evil] they are not mongrels they are crossbreeds (planned as opposed to unplanned) these puppies parents can and probably do have excellent pedigrees because they are not labradoodles themselves - the dam will probably be a labrador and the sire will be a poodle - their offspring are first generation (F1) labradoodles

and the reason people pay the price for them is because they want them and will pay the amount they can afford to pay for something they want!

Yours

A (proud) labradoodle owner

mrsmo
19-Dec-07, 14:46
go girl you tell them!!

skinnydog
19-Dec-07, 14:48
Well if you ask me it all comes down to supply and demand. If there is a demand for them and people supply them good and well. It is totally up to each individual what they pay for their dogs. Mine cost me a bottle of gin and some home made scones but hey to me he is priceless!!!

goldenguernsey
19-Dec-07, 19:00
Not only are they planned "cross breeding" they are purpose bred for the qualities of their coat. We have a 1st generation Labradoodle with full pedigree Labrador and Poodle sire and dam. Her puppies are 2nd generation crossed back to a poodle and have tremendous curly coats, they also have a pedigree.

crustyroll
19-Dec-07, 21:01
Okay, people that know me, know I do not agree with or like these dogs. I know a few 'doodle' owners and I know that they love their dogs to bits, we all love our dogs to bits, that's not what's in question.

The question is, is it right to 'make' this breed?

The owners I have met have all categorily stated that their dogs CAST, or for others, shed their coat. It is known that Labrador genes are so strong that Labrador always comes through in one way or another. Now who regulates or decides which Labradoodle traits should be bred on? What if Labrador starts to come through more and more, or go the other way and poodle is more dominant? I don't think it's that easy to fix the 'doodle' traits as throwbacks will always occur. Every one that breeds doodles with a conscience (?) will be breeding for different traits so this opens another whole new set of types.

Plenty of people have heard of Hip Dysplasia and the information on this condition is out there but time and time again, pet owners are still having dogs with this problem. There are thousands of labrador puppies bred every year from untested parents because there are people out there that that DEMAND cheaper puppies or believe as its 'just a pet' it doesn't need all these health tests carried out. This is true of any breed that carry health problems, the poodle included.

Another problem which the majority of pet owners will not know about is Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA). Labradors and Poodles both have PRA in the gene pool so you are doubling up on another problem that respectable Labrador and Poodle breeders are battling against to weed out.

Something I do know is that all the top Labrador and Poodle breeders would NEVER knowingly let their kennel name or dogs be used to 'crossbreed' so you can guarantee then that the 'doodles' that are being bred are not from the highest quality stock of either breed [evil][evil]

dragonfly
19-Dec-07, 21:33
hey crustyroll, was going to do a long reply but seeing as we know each other I'll just agree to disagree with some of your very valid points and save the argument for next time we meet and let our dogs play with each other ;)

Julia
19-Dec-07, 22:35
Something I do know is that all the top Labrador and Poodle breeders would NEVER knowingly let their kennel name or dogs be used to 'crossbreed' so you can guarantee then that the 'doodles' that are being bred are not from the highest quality stock of either breed [evil]

Excellent point, my poodle is of the highest quality stock and I am quite sure that the breeder from whom I purchased him would have nothing less than a hairy fit if I even mentioned letting him get it on with anything other than another top quality poodle! :eek:

mongrel


• noun a dog of no definable breed.




i.e. labradoodle = undefined breed, unrecognised by The Kennel Club

crustyroll
19-Dec-07, 22:41
Hi dragonfly, saw the pic and wondered if it was who I thought it was..:lol:

People will always disagree, just like the way I feed my dogs (RMB) and until I can 'understand and see' why they are bred I will always hold true to what I say.

However, Labradoodles are here and I think will eventually be KC registered and a recognised breed. If a person is wanting to breed and produce Labradoodles, then they should do it to the utmost of their abilities and carry out all the health tests available to both breeds, using the healthiest and best quality stock they can.

Can the poster who is selling these pups honestly put their hand on their heart and say they have carried out all the tests? If they have, I would have thought they would be stating that fact as a selling point. Are they charging huge amounts of money for these pups? Some breeders are and yes there are people out there willing to pay huge sums of money for one of these pups. I am not being bitter, but it does p you off when you've health tested the parents, spent hours upon hours lovingly raising a litter of puppies, put your money and any extra spare cash you have into your dogs only to be told 'we can get a puppy cheaper than that'.

Dont worry I'll still let my dogs play with yours on the beach :lol:

Julia
19-Dec-07, 22:47
However, Labradoodles are here and I think will eventually be KC registered and a recognised breed.

I completely disagree, I can't see that the Kennel Club will ever recognise them as a breed, or all the other 'cross breeds' i.e. cockapoo, jackapoo etc.. the mind boggles :eek:

dragonfly
19-Dec-07, 22:57
Crustyroll, I hope like you that the poster selling these puppies can produce the certificates and isn't just jumping on the high price tag bandwagon associated with labradoodles.

I know from the labradoodle forum I am a member of that the price of doodles is falling - people (or potential owners) are beginning to realise that the only true non shedding dog is a poodle and if they have allergies then only a poodle can guarantee a non allergic reaction. Labradoodles do have tendancies to shed less than a standard labrador (something which I can personally vouch for having one of each) but how much or how little they shed cannot be determined until their puppy coat is out.

As you know I am considering putting my dog to stud but I will only do it once he has had ALL necessary health checks done and the results are satisfactory - and thanks for your advice which I will be taking into consideration.

dragonfly
19-Dec-07, 23:00
I completely disagree, I can't see that the Kennel Club will ever recognise them as a breed, or all the other 'cross breeds' i.e. cockapoo, jackapoo etc.. the mind boggles :eek:

where do all recognised breeds come from originally?? some of the breeds shown in crufts now were not around years ago :confused all come from cross breeding somewhere along the way for example Dandy Dinmont a cross breeding between an otterhound and "some kind of other terrier" - at least the origins of a labradoodle are well known

Julia

this is taken from the Kennel Clubs own website

Crossbreed Dogs
04-May-07

A crossbreed is a dog of mixed blood, whose parents are of two different breeds, or a mixture of several breeds. A mongrel is a dog of unknown parentage.

Crossbreeds often display a mixture of their parents traits. So it is important to take this into account when thinking of buying or rehoming a crossbreed. If you know the mix of breeds this may help but otherwise find out what you can about the parents.

The Kennel Club have been registering crossbreed dogs on its database for over 50 years. If you are considering getting a crossbreed, why not consider being part of the Kennel Club and enjoy the benefits the registration brings? The Activity and Companion Dog Registers offer lots of benefits that can enhance your crossbreed dog ownership experience.

Tilter
19-Dec-07, 23:18
where do all recognised breeds come from originally??

Um - didn't all breeds come from the wolf? Haven't we bred hundreds of 'recognised' breeds through the ages for specific traits to suit our own ends - hunting, herding, making money etc? Likewise all domestic animals.

Wish posters wouldn't slag off mongrels. It's not their fault they're mongrels and they can love you just as much as a champion Tootledoodle or whatever if you give one a chance (and a home).

Grrr from me too.

porshiepoo
19-Dec-07, 23:44
I know this is off topic but I have to say that I kind of agree with Crustyroll on the subject of these mixed breed dogs.
To me it seems that people are just sticking two breeds together, combining the names and selling them as a breed as opposed to a mongrel, which they in fact are. Then they put a full pedigree price tag on them.
I'm sure Labradoodles are a fun dog but they are not a breed nor will they ever be recognised by the kennel club.
Incidentally what group would the KC place them in anyway? Labradors are Gundogs and Poodles are Utility!!!!!!!!

Like I said I'm sure these are lovely dogs and I hope they all find great homes.

dragonfly
19-Dec-07, 23:59
aww porshie, you edited it, I liked the thought of a gindog, personally my (pedigreed and highly inbred) labrador prefers lager to gin ;)

porshiepoo
20-Dec-07, 00:05
aww porshie, you edited it, I liked the thought of a gindog, personally my (pedigreed and highly inbred) labrador prefers lager to gin ;)



Hahahaha, I nearly left it in too. lol.
Gosh you must have been quick off the mark reading it cos I edited it within seconds. :lol:

brandy
20-Dec-07, 00:24
well golly gosh, i have a labradoodle.. so i must be one of those dimwitted fools who wanted a celebrity mongral.. *flutters and twitters away.. isnt she dahhhling!
*rolls eyes*
bubbles has been an absolutly wonderful addition to our family.. she has been a god save to me.. and my children well.. they cant imagine life without her.
she sheds, a lot! as she is a first gen im hoovering black hair up daily... not bothered.. not why we got her.
didnt care to have a pure bred or show dog..
simply put, i wanted a dog that would be absolutly lovable, clever, smart, guiless, gormless, loving, loyal, playful , bouncy, ingenious, and could cope and keep up with the demonic duo i call sam and ben.
and i have her in bubbles.
she will lay in the floor while ben climbs all over her... rolls with her... kisses and hugs her.. she will meet them at their bedroom door every morning to say hello, and put a smile on their faces..
she will bounce across the house for a plush fish
she will steal any and all crumbs that fall to the floor,
she will lay at your feet for hours
sit with sam and let him pet her and just be with him.. she follows me well like a little *huge* lost puppy... and she never ever has a bad day..
so how much is she worth?
well shes priceless...
i would have gladly paid more that any pure bred pedigree pooch for my girl.
i have her pedigree.. and yes she does have one.. oohhh and i can also reg. her as a cross breed ive been told.
so im sorry if some people have their noses stuck up in the air.. and are on their high horse.. obviously they are animal lovers but look down on the lesser ones..
i love my dog just as much as if she was a high class poodle/ Lab... she has more charecter in her tail than a lot of other dogs in their whole body..
whew.. end rant!

Lassie
20-Dec-07, 00:53
Excellent point, my poodle is of the highest quality stock and I am quite sure that the breeder from whom I purchased him would have nothing less than a hairy fit if I even mentioned letting him get it on with anything other than another top quality poodle!

Ok Julia once you've stopped bragging about the superb quality of your Pedigree dog!...

I really cannot understand why it matters if the dog is able to register with KC [evil]! If a family pet is all you want a dog for then what does it matter?!? The dog isn't going to love you more if it is showed at a KC show!

I was talking to a lady who is trained under KC regulations and who is a KC judge, who reckons that KC will start to register Labradoodles as a breed!

My labradoodle is perfect for our family and to be quite honest is the most loving dog you could come across! He's a big fluffy lump and looks at least 10 times better than any poodle you see walking around!

As they say, opinions are like backsides...everyone has one! ;)

xxx

crustyroll
20-Dec-07, 01:15
simply put, i wanted a dog that would be absolutly lovable, clever, smart, guiless, gormless, loving, loyal, playful , bouncy, ingenious, and could cope and keep up with the demonic duo i call sam and ben.

i would have gladly paid more that any pure bred pedigree pooch for my girl.
i have her pedigree.. and yes she does have one.. oohhh and i can also reg. her as a cross breed ive been told.


Brandy that's fantastic that you have a dog that is all those things, but as you state, all you wanted was a dog.

A pedigree is a written record of parentage and doesn't guarantee that the dog is healthy, I could have written anything down for my puppies parentage and made it look even better than it is. The fact that they are KC registered is so you are able to check with the Kennel Club that the pedigree is correct and I have been honest. You would also see that the KC have the proof that I have carried out all the health tests on the parents. My dogs pedigree's prove that they have many many years of established breeding behind them and not backyard breeders making a quick buck.

Why would you willingly pay more for her than a pure pedigree pooch that has had all the testing behind it?? You can say that now because you love her, but in reality you shouldn't be paying more when no health tests have been used. Others take advantage of this and still charge 'pure pedigree' prices.

crustyroll
20-Dec-07, 01:39
Lassie, if all I wanted was a dog then it wouldn't matter to me whether it was KC registered or not but that's not all I want.

I want a pure bred dog that I know has not got any other breed mixed with it because I love the characteristics of my chosen breed. I don't want to have the yappiness of some small dogs, or the bad temperedness that I remember in my parents Pomeranians (I know not all of them are like that :lol:). I love Labradors and I want them to STAY Labradors, long term breeders are striving to keep them as Labradors.

Have you looked at Labradors at all and wondered why oh why they all look so different? I get criticized quite a lot for the shape of my dogs (okay I'll admit one is carrying too much weight after her puppies but that's my fault) but that's because they are closer to the breed standard than some of the other Labradors you see in this area.

There is a huge split between show and working strains. After World War II numbers of dogs were at an all time low and lots of cross breeding happened to increase numbers. Labradors had Greyhound (to increase speed), Flatcoats, Elkhounds, Foxhounds and probably quite a few others all thrown in there. Its only because the Labrador gene is so potent that they have essentially remained Labradors but you can spot the divergence if you know what you are looking for. NOBODY can guarantee that my dogs are 'pure' 100% all the way back in their ancestory as lots of things were done very quiety during those years, but I know that for the last 50 years at least they are 'Labradors' and haven't had anything else thrown in there. Thats what I want and what I have paid for and what I strive to keep.

Yep, the KC will end up recognizing Labradoodles, they are opening up the register to more and more breeds and they don't ever want to loose money!!!! The KC is working hard to make things better for dogs but where do you think a large part of their income comes from? How can they afford the 6 million it takes to hold Crufts?

porshiepoo
20-Dec-07, 10:55
Pedigree or mongrel, the choice is purely preference with maybe a bit of 'Ah bless' at the time thrown in ;), my point is that some people seem to have jumped on the bandwagon of breeding 2 completely different breeds, giving them a choice name and selling them at ridiculous prices. The reason for kc registered recognised breeds is to enable (in theory) breeders and future buyers to know exactly what they are getting themselves into with regards to breed standards and health problems with each breed. Breeders (again in theory) try to limit these possible problems by testing for known health issues and sticking to the breed standard, ensuring the longevity and popularity of the breed, and believe me ALOT of work goes into this for the majority of breeders.
When a person purposefully mates 2 completely seperate breeds without any concept of what this will do and then sells them at extortionate prices it simply does not help the breeds involved. It can actually be very detrimental to the breed and helps undo all the hardwork and money that serious breeders have put into each breed.
IMO it's pure laziness and greed, no effort is expected to go into the testing of the parents involved because the end result will be a Labradoodle or a Yorkiepoo :confused and there are no breed standards or health warnings available for these dogs because they are not a breed. Who knows if the health issues of one breed dilutes or exacerbates those of the other?
This is all well and good, mongrels make great pets but to sell them with fancy names with ridiculous price tags is ripping people off. If you want a mongrel go to rescue or get one from someone who really has had an accidental mating.

If someone was selling a GSD cross Collie for £350 most people would steer well clear, sense would tell them not to pay that for a mongrel, but call a dog Labradoodle or Yorkiepoo and all sense seems to go out the window for some reason. Advertise those same dogs as Labrador cross Poodle or Yorkshire Terrier cross Poodle and they don't quite have the same appeal do they!
People have just learnt how to exploit the market!

brandy
20-Dec-07, 13:23
yet at the same time.. when you go to a rescue center and Adopt a dog.. that really is a mongrel, (nothing wrong with this by the way) where most times their is no idea of the parentage or history of the dog in question.. or even past history of dog in some cases you still are paying a 100 pounds for adoption fees.. so even though a labradoodle is not a pure bred.. as it dosent breed true yet.. they are still pedigree as both parents come from pedigrees.. and you know the histories of the dog and its ancestors.. i have the last five generations of bubbles pedigrees and they were loaded with champions. but i also met the mum and dad, saw thier natures and was well impressed.
we were originally looking at a lab as a pet, but im not keen on the thick set of brittish labs.. they are just to stocky for my liking and are like brick houses.. where the labradoodle has the looks and lovability of a lab but with the leaness of a poodle ... and as both teh standard poodle and lab are highly intellegent dogs.. its a great combo..
at the end of the day its down to personal choice.. but i have been given a lot of abuse over bubbles being a labradoodle.
she is not a fashion statment.. nor a hypoallergenic dog.. as if you will look up the labradoodle-rescue site you will see how hard they are working to try to make the public aware that these dogs are not ideal for allergy and asthma sufferers as some breeders repute. and that the forum is trying to get breeders to stop advertising them as such.
there is a load of work and love going into the breed.. to make a breed standard and to turn the labradoodle into a reconized breed.
it will take a long time and a lot of work, and their will always be those who will stick their noses in the air... but lets face it at one time.. all breeds were mongrels and cae down from wolves and wild dogs. and it has only been in the last few hundred years that the breeds has really meant anything.

Liz
20-Dec-07, 13:37
I don't care whether a dog is a Cross Breed, Pedigree or Mongrel. Love them all!
What I do not like is people breeding dogs without, as Crustyroll rightly says, checking for health problems as they just want to make money.

Responsible breeders will always do this and so keep the breed healthy.

If a couple of unneutered dogs of different breeds 'get together' by accident then that is one thing but deliberately putting different breeds together doesn't seem right to me. However, if it is going to be done then every health check necessary should be carried out.
This will not only stop unnecessary suffering for the dogs but potential heartache for the owners.

They are doing the same thing with cats with some awful results!

nanoo
20-Dec-07, 14:13
I think it's only a matter of time till the Labradoodle is recognised by the KC. I myself in my time have grown up with various Pedigree dogs ie- Greyhounds,Spanials,Westies, German Shepherd dogs and a Samoyed. After i got married, we had a Norwegean Elk Hound and Border Collie. 'Shock horror' my father was angry as he always said 'if you keep a dog, keep a Pedigree' when i first married the Border Collie was'nt recognised as a Pedigree. They are the best dogs ever and look where they are now KC recognised around the world. It's only a matter of time.:)

ANNIE
20-Dec-07, 15:14
These dogs were first bred for the blind in Australia about 20 years ago for those who were allergic to dogs. So there is a genuine reason for this breed. I am biased too as I am a proud labradoodle owner and wouldn't change for anything.

Julia
20-Dec-07, 20:53
My labradoodle is perfect for our family and to be quite honest is the most loving dog you could come across!

And you have the cheek to say I am bragging! My point was, which you have missed completely, is that quality breeders spend a lot of time, money and effort maintaining their pedigree's quality and I am quite quite sure that if you spoke to any worthwhile breeder they certainly would not find 'cross breeding' with their particular dog or bitch acceptable! The parents may well have papers but the offspring won't.

I have nothing against mongrels at all and know that they can make fabulous pets, I will never get how someone can pay hundreds of pounds for a dog with no papers.

unicorn
20-Dec-07, 21:08
I don't suppose the original poster is having much luck with selling their pups with all this hoo hah going on in their thread. Surely a seperate thread should be started to discuss this issue if thats what people want to do instead of hijacking a sale thread. :roll:

crustyroll
20-Dec-07, 21:29
Well actually she has put the advert in the pets corner, as well as the items for sale section and we are discussing it in the pets corner section... :D

This debate will run forever and nobody wins the argument, they are still arguing over the divide between show and working Labs 50 years on :eek: I have to pick up on a point Brandy made -

"we were originally looking at a lab as a pet, but im not keen on the thick set of brittish labs.. they are just to stocky for my liking and are like brick houses.. where the labradoodle has the looks and lovability of a lab but with the leaness of a poodle"

Labs aren't meant to be like brick houses but neither are they meant to be lean and flat sided. It's because others want different things in the breed from what the Breed Standard states, that we have such a variety in one breed. This is true of lots of dog breeds that have a dual purpose and will continue until the sun sets.

dragonfly
20-Dec-07, 21:31
if nothing else its keeping the thread at the top of the thread list and getting people looking.

Must say that I am disappointed that the originator has not come on yet and answered the question posed about the dam/sire's health checks as this is the most important question that should be addressed by the breeder and potential buyers whether the pups in question are from the scraggiest mutt or the poshest pedigreed pooch - its all down to responsible breeding

Julia
21-Dec-07, 13:18
I agree Dragonfly, whoever buys these pups should make sure they are healthy and see the original documentation showing that the parents have indeed had the appropriate health checks, i.e. hip scores and eyes tested for PRA

Doodle
23-Dec-07, 11:08
Sorry for not replying sooner I have been busy looking after my six puppies and parents, The dam is a labrador who we bred ourselves 3 years ago we also have her mother who is an inernational feild trial champ, both parents are regulary checked at the vet, we have bred and trained dogs for many years and I can assure you there is no great price tag as with my labs also a good loving home is more important to find than just someone who can afford a so called designer dog.. Hope this answers some of your questions.

Tilter
23-Dec-07, 17:53
Sorry for not replying sooner I have been busy looking after my six puppies and parents, The dam is a labrador who we bred ourselves 3 years ago we also have her mother who is an inernational feild trial champ, both parents are regulary checked at the vet, we have bred and trained dogs for many years and I can assure you there is no great price tag as with my labs also a good loving home is more important to find than just someone who can afford a so called designer dog.. Hope this answers some of your questions.

You tell 'em Doodle. Wish I was in the market for a LD because I think they're lovely dogs, but we have our full complement of dogs at present (two - both rescue).

labsrus
23-Dec-07, 19:39
Thanks for answering my question however, "regularly checked at the vet" goes for nothing I am afraid as a vet cannot tell just by looking at a dog if its hips are sound, they MUST be x-rayed and sent off to the BVA for scoring and a specialist opthalmologist has to do the eye test.

It makes me quite fed up as a breeder (who does do all the appropriate health tests before breeding) that vets dont seem to advise people considering breeding to get these tests done, just pronounce that the dog is healthy enough to be bred from. You would think that they of all people would only want 100% sound dogs to be bred from?

Nowadays more people are starting to sue so I hope for your sakes this doesnt happen if one of the pups you bred turns out to have hip dysplasia or goes blind with PRA.

I know it is still possible occasionally to get a pup affedted with HD from 2 parents with good scores, but at least if you have screened the parents you have done your best to breed sound puppies so cannot be held totally to blame if problems do develope.

It is not quite the same IMO when you are knowingly selling puppies who may well have problems (as you cant tell for sure parents have good scores without x-rays or clear eyes without an eye test) and I am sorry but I feel it just creates the impression that money for puppies is of more importance than their future health.

In my opinion breeding should only be undertaken with the dogs best interest at heart, to produce sound, healthy happy dogs who will live long and happy lives, not have a life filled with pain from sore hips or for the owner to have to cope with a young dog going blind when these things are avoidable.

Some cases of hip dyslpasia are so bad that very young dogs have to be put to sleep because they are in so much pain, what a waste and such heartbreak for the pup's family. I know that I personally wouldnt like to have that on my conscience.

crustyroll
23-Dec-07, 21:23
I'll just add that breeding done correctly doesn't make you rich, here's a rough breakdown of the costs associated with the recent litter I bred.

Eye Test for Sire & Dam (closest Opthamologist Vet Inverness) - £110 which includes £30 for fuel.

PRA test for Sire - £90

Potential Stud fee - £400 plus travelling costs - I used my own dog this time so havent it in the final figure

Hip & Elbow Scoring for Sire - £230 (£80 for each plate (2) & £70 for Kennel Club fees)
Overnight stay - £26
Fuel - £80

The price of fuel & stay was extra as I took him to a specialist as the quality of the positioning and plates can affect the overall score.

Hip Score for Bitch - £120 (£80 for 1 plate & £40 for KC fees)

Coat Colour test - £40

Vet examinations, worming, puppy checks etc - £150

New whelping box, vet bed, puppy supplies - £200

Extra advertising as some puppy buyers had to pull out - £90

KC Registrations - £100

Folders for puppy packs, paper for packs, teddy for puppy, sample packs from Dorwest Herbs, small supply of wormer & homeopathic nosodes, book on raw feeding - £130

Extra feeding for bitch and food for puppies plus a weeks supply of food to new owners (raw feeders don't get free food from dog companies) - £300

This basic figure comes to £1646 and I sold 5 puppies at full price, I've kept one, I gave one to a close relative and one at a reduced price to the right home. There were a huge amount of pups for sale at that time of year, the majority not having any health tests and buyers being tempted by the cheaper price or not wanting to travel any great distance. I also kept a few pups longer than 8 weeks till the right homes came along so had extra feeding costs then as well.

I havent even included all the washing and drying of vetbed, keeping the house warm and heating on until the pups are a couple of weeks old. The extra cleaning products, rubbish bags for soiled papers, new puppy toys, kitchen roll, baby wipes, telephone costs to new owners, telephone costs to other potential owners and dog contacts, puppy run for garden, stair gates, new stair carpet as pups chewed it, also new kitchen carpert as laminate flooring does not like puppy pee!!! Oh, also dog crates, dog guards, dog leads, collars, actual purchase price of dogs. I also havent included any costs for showing my dogs, ie entering shows, travelling to shows, wear & tear to car, dog sitter, any & all other vet visits and treatments.

Now I know some of these costs are what pet owners would pay anyway just to have the pleasure of a dog. The little money that was left over from the puppies went back into showing costs, feeding & maintenance costs, PRA tests for two pups I have, one of which I bought this year, plus annual eye tests which are due. In fact there actually no money left and all the ongoing costs come out of our pockets and we sacrifice having any holidays, fancy clothes, nice house or nights out which is our choice.

The non-financial costs are all the time it takes to plan the mating, making sure the bitch is healthy, travelling, care of the pregnant bitch, sleepless nights, stress of making sure bitch & puppies are healthy and are keeping well. Extra time you need to devote to your other dogs on top, as well as keeping your house running, kids happy, blah blah blah the list goes on.....

I havent touched on the bad things that can happen, the loss of puppies, possible loss of bitch, vets fees when things go wrong. Olders dogs having to come bach through no fault of their own and needing re-homed. Breeding is not for the faint hearted or should I say 'correct breeding' is not for those that cannot put the time and effort and money into their breed.

What would you rather, a slightly more expensive puppy that has had lots of time, love and care with proven healthy parents, lifetime support OR a slightly cheaper puppy that has possibly not had the same start in life, certainly doesnt have health tested parents and will probably not have the guarantee of being able to return the puppy or grown dog if circumstances change, or run the possibly increased risk of needing a 4 figure sum for joint surgery. So maybe not such a bargain after all?

porshiepoo
23-Dec-07, 21:51
Yep, there's most definately not much money to be made in breeding if it's done properly. I had 1 Dane litter about 5 years ago, had 9 live pups and the selling price was £550 (much more now though).
In all one covered the cost of the stud, 2 I kept for show purposes (the boy was later rehomed as he only dropped one testicle so I had to have him castrated too), 1 went to the stud dog owner in exchange for one from her litter (show purposes) and 1 had to be put to sleep at 18 weeks.
Then when you take into account scanning, 200 mile trip to stud dog, care whilst pregnant, care after birth, dew claw removal, numerous test costs on the one that had to be pts, Royal Canin food for all of them and the mum, health checks before selling, KC registration, etc etc etc, I made a grand total of ...... zilch. But that was OK because the main purpose was to have show stock out of it.
THEN, you have the added responsibility of being available to help those that do buy your pups plus I had to take one back and rehome him cos the owners couldn't look after him. The costs involved for petrol, chipping and castration and then rehoming him just kept adding up.

The responsibility to those pups does not end when you've sold them on, if you're a responsible breeder it will last a life time.

Tilter
27-Dec-07, 12:36
Tell me - don't pedigreed dogs have more health problems because they are most often inbred or linebred, or are bred from a localised gene pool?

Won't crossbreeds or muts or whatever tend to be healthier because they are, by definition, outbred?

Just curious. Would like to know what breeders and owners think.

crustyroll
04-Jan-08, 13:30
Most breeders of old did line breed quite tightly as there were no genetic tests or x-raying facilities available for them to find out any underlying health problems. Tight line breeding will throw up any genetic problems that are lurking under the surface.

There is a difference between 'Inbreeding' and 'Line breeding'. Inbreeding tends to be continously breeding between siblings, mothers to sons, fathers to daughters and so on. Line breeding is breeding to a relative within 5 generations, to go any further back you are loosing the qualities you are wanting to keep. Generally you have a better knowledge of what genes are at work with line bred pedigree dogs as you know 'whats behind it' and therefore they are healthier as you are breeding bad genes out. You can 'outcross' and take in completely new blood but this can throw in another set of genes which may not be as compatible as you think.

Mongrels are like Russian Roulette, you have no way of knowing what you are getting and what the outcome will be. You don't see disease that often in mongrels because there will probably never be the same combination of genes happening more than a few times. It's not that the dog doesn't carry a problem, it just hasn't met the other dog that would bring the problem to light.

Tilter
05-Jan-08, 18:11
Hi Crustyroll,
Thanks for the explanation - it makes sense. I guess the moral of the story is, you can get problems whatever the dog, and mongrels tend to exhibit them less as they are never purposely bred and therefore the unwanted genes aren't perpetuated, though that's not true for deliberate cross-breeds. Anyway, I hope all those puppies that started this thread have gone to good homes.

kwbrown111
19-Jan-08, 21:58
As one that has bought one i certainly think they are far better natured than your mainly highly strung KC dogs. As has been said before most modern breeds of dogs were cross bred. I also think that the price of these Labradoodles fair.
PS We also have a (normal?)lab