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unicorn
06-Dec-07, 23:23
this article has thoroughly shocked and disgusted me. What on earth posseses a person to be so cruel to a living creature. A 15 year old boy freezes a hamster, sticks it in the tumble dryer and then puts it in the washing machine before dumping it in the bin and what does he get for it a 4 year ban on keeping animals and a 12 month supervision order :eek: psychiatric help would be a good start. As for not naming him I feel that if you are such a hard big man to do something like this to an innocent animal then you should have to face your actions in public.If this was my son who had done this I would be arrested after I got my hands on him.
Warning pictures may offend.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1295827,00.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1295827,00.html)

Liz
06-Dec-07, 23:32
What kind of warped mind could do this to a poor wee innocent animal?!

Did he get some kind of 'kick' out of it? This is definitely the mind of a murderer and the sentence he got was laughable.
I know what I would like to do to him!!!!
To think we share the planet with monsters like these!!!!

Afraid I couldn't look at the pictures.

Kenn
06-Dec-07, 23:34
Like you unicorn I am baffled by the mindset of this youngster, if capable of doing that to a hamster what is next?
I hope the years supervision order includes some serious counselling.

alanatkie
06-Dec-07, 23:37
OMG If he can do that to a defenceless animal what next?

lil_kim
06-Dec-07, 23:37
i cant believe that. i feel sick to the stomach. makes me so mad people getting some sort of kicks from hurting and murdering defenceless animals. 4 years ban from having pets!! what a joke. and i fully agree about naming the culprit!!

karia
06-Dec-07, 23:37
What kind of behaviour is he subjected to that he thinks this is acceptable?

I doubt that he just fetched up that way...spawn of satan like!:eek:


karia

connieb19
06-Dec-07, 23:39
There's something seriously wrong with someone who could harm an innocent defenseless animal like that. It makes you wonder what he's going to turn out like later in life. It's sad to think there's folk with such warped minds. [disgust]:(

johno
06-Dec-07, 23:40
Two men have been fined for kicking a hedgehog to death by using it as a football during a stag weekend.

Self-employed joiner John Cathcart and his colleague Gordon Devenish admitted kicking the animal back and forth until it died as a result of its injuries. The pair were fined a total of £760 at Perth Sheriff Court for the incident in Aberfeldy, Perthshire, in June.
They aught to ashamed of themselves also. [disgust]

Rheghead
06-Dec-07, 23:40
I agree that this is a despicable act but if you agree this boy should have been guided by a recognition that animals do feel pain, suffering, a state of well-being, sensations and emotions, then we should remind ourselves that we are also culpable on many scales of magnitude more by demanding cheap food, burning fossil fuels to excess, and clearing land for development.

unicorn
06-Dec-07, 23:40
I don't see that as an excuse at all for extreme cruelty such as this anyone with an ounce of compassion or respect for life would see this as absolutely wrong to even think about, never mind actually do it.

lazytown
06-Dec-07, 23:44
The 15 year old should be named and shamed for this heinous
act never mind this crap 'cannot be named for legal reason'.

SICK LITTLE...better stop there before I get told off.

Rheghead
06-Dec-07, 23:44
I don't see that as an excuse at all for extreme cruelty such as this anyone with an ounce of compassion or respect for life would see this as absolutely wrong to even think about, never mind actually do it.

So if you pay for a man to inflict acts of cruelty on an animal whilst you sleep soundly in your bed, does that make you innocent?:confused

unicorn
06-Dec-07, 23:48
we are hardly talking eco warriors here, we are talking about someone torturing an animal slowly to death for his own sick amusement. It was not even his. I cannot stop climate change or anything else but I do think that the criminal justice system and the new animal welfare bill should have been able to apply a tougher sentence. By the way I do try to do my bit for the planet, recycling, energy saving lightbulbs, not using carrier bags etc.

karia
06-Dec-07, 23:58
I agree that this is a despicable act but if you agree this boy should have been guided by a recognition that animals do feel pain, suffering, a state of well-being, sensations and emotions, then we should remind ourselves that we are also culpable on many scales of magnitude more by demanding cheap food, burning fossil fuels to excess, and clearing land for development.

Absolutely!

Following your argument these ' barbarians' were causing less damage and being more up front about it ..while we hide our animal cruelty behind a societal net curtain of respectability and the gift of distance from the brutality involved in some of our more mundane daily activities.

Like destroying their habitats and other mild mannered deeds!:roll:

The 'visceral clutch' brigade have a lot to answer for... but 'Child blows up hamster' will always attract more attention than 'child digs up garden plants but fails to provide new nesting material for hedgehogs.'

Respect Rheghead!:D


Karia

unicorn
07-Dec-07, 00:01
So this case is just fine by you both, and we all kill animals anyway so who cares, sorry no respect here.

Rheghead
07-Dec-07, 00:02
Unicorn, I agree with your abhorence to animal cruelty and this case in particular, but for goodness sake, in terms of global effects, it is only a hamster! It won't be the first and it won't be the last animal to get killed by a sadist! But consider this, I don't know how much court cases cost these days but if that amount of money was spent on educating third world farmers on how to farm sustainably or providing a dancing bear keeper with alternative employment then I think we will get better value for our money in terms of preventing animal cruelty. Just my 2p. Unicorn, please don't feel I am picking on you or that you need to justify your position, you don't, I AGREE with you, it is sick.

Rheghead
07-Dec-07, 00:05
So this case is just fine by you both, and we all kill animals anyway so who cares, sorry no respect here.

That is not what I am saying at all, in fact, quite the opposite. You have taken my post out of context.

karia
07-Dec-07, 00:06
No..Not at all!:(

It is a question of despising individual hateful acts and accepting that 'corporate' brutality is both more far reaching and receives almost no blame!:(

karia

unicorn
07-Dec-07, 00:06
It's only a hamster so it doesn't matter as it is a cheap pet, that is something that really gets me with a large part of society, I bought it I own it and it only cost a fiver so it's disposable no big deal. Sickening.

shazzap
07-Dec-07, 00:11
It's a well known fact that children who hurt animals go onto hurting humans

Rheghead
07-Dec-07, 00:11
I bought it I own it and it only cost a fiver so it's disposable no big deal. Sickening.

Ah, I see. You only see things justified monetarily.

Forgive me, I don't really mean it. Let us just say that we don't need to actually do the evil deed to be sick. Not seeing the end result of our actions must be a complete blind comfort to us.

karia
07-Dec-07, 00:14
Ah, I see. You only see things justified monetarily.

I think unicorn was suggesting that was the view of new owners ..cum torturers!

karia

unicorn
07-Dec-07, 00:16
no I don't actually, as I have already stated the sentence is laughable considering the pain and suffering inflicted but hey it's only a hamster. It had a life, it felt pain and fear. No animal should suffer this type of treatment but while these types of slaps on the wrist are handed out nothing will change. It would be great to save the planet and all living creatures in it but sadly no one person can.

karia
07-Dec-07, 00:30
Read through this thread properly and you will see that neither Rheg nor I are against you.....we just want to widen decent living conditions and sustainable environments .. not get tied up with chicco the hamster or whatever!

To conclude that this means we don't care about chicco doesn't make a lot of sense!:confused

1 hamster badly treated and dead - horrible and questions should be asked!

1 species of animal wiped out and made extinct by our actions in de forestation..?:eek:

It is a question of quantity Unicorn...would that it were simply a simple case of saving one animal!

Karia

Camel Spider
07-Dec-07, 00:35
I was worried it was Richard Hammond for a minute there.

Heres hoping the wee hamster is in the big wheel in the sky .. RIP mate.

Margaret M.
07-Dec-07, 04:13
Cruel acts like this are probably more common than we think -- unfortunately, it's only a few that get caught.


then we should remind ourselves that we are also culpable on many scales of magnitude more by demanding cheap food, burning fossil fuels to excess, and clearing land for development.


And let's not forget the millions of animals/poultry that in many cases, particulary in the case of factory farms, live in horrendous conditions and die horrible deaths before being devoured by humans. Check out some undercover videos of slaughterhouses or poultry processing plants if you want to see heart sickening cruelty.

dandod
07-Dec-07, 11:27
what a truly disgusting thing to do the child should be named and shamed. its such ashame i never had the same response on a thread i posted in november about a dolphin cull in japan in a port called taijie where dolphins are speared and bludgeoned to death in the water and taken into port before being chopped up and sold for meat. i did have a few great response so i thank them i just wish i had the same response as what one dead hamster is getting.:~(

golach
07-Dec-07, 11:41
Read through this thread properly and you will see that neither Rheg nor I are against you.....we just want to widen decent living conditions and sustainable environments .. not get tied up with chicco the hamster or whatever!
To conclude that this means we don't care about chicco doesn't make a lot of sense!
1 hamster badly treated and dead - horrible and questions should be asked!
1 species of animal wiped out and made extinct by our actions in de forestation..?
It is a question of quantity Unicorn...would that it were simply a simple case of saving one animal!
Karia
I dont think Unicorn posted this thread as a concern for the hamster, but as a concern for this despicable act of cruelty by a teenage sub human on a defenseless animal that was someones pet. IMO this 15 year old is old enough to be named and shamed, and is in the same category as the thugs that played football with a hedgehog.[disgust]

bluelady
07-Dec-07, 13:11
It basically boils down to the fact that some people have a disrepect for life in whatever form and for reasons known only to them proberly, have a desire to destroy it. through anger, lust, hate, who knows, but yes name and shame them and let fellow beings know who they share their community with. At least they will be more aware to save the lesser beings in their area.:(

Liz
07-Dec-07, 13:18
Any act of cruelty is abhorrent whether to one wee hamster or a whole species of animals!!!
On the whole, humans have failed to look after the animal and plant life we share the planet with.

Is it that the vast majority have lost respect whilst the others are high on drugs etc?!!!! Sadly though ,cruelty of any kind has been with us since time began. I suppose it's just that we have the media now to report it all.

Thankfully there are many socieities working hard on all these points and we can help by supporting at least one.

Of course we can help individually as well.

karia
07-Dec-07, 13:20
I dont think Unicorn posted this thread as a concern for the hamster, but as a concern for this despicable act of cruelty by a teenage sub human on a defenseless animal that was someones pet. IMO this 15 year old is old enough to be named and shamed, and is in the same category as the thugs that played football with a hedgehog.

Crikey yes! God forbid that any topic be broadened out and explored in any real world context!:roll:

Bad lad..should have corporal punishment brought back just for him..indeed why stop there ..capital punishment..or is hanging too good for him?:lol:

That's an answer you are more comfortable with..requires no real thought... just a knee jerk!

karia

nanoo
07-Dec-07, 13:29
The destruction of the hamster and the hedgehog in my estimation is DISGUSTING to say the least. Also in the paper today i read that two swans(a mating pair) were found by someone yesterday and they had been shot(pellet gun) by yobs. The male swan was dead with 8/9 pellets to the head and the female was dying beside him having been shot 7/8 times. Needless to say, she is now dead as well. These yobs, surprise, surprise got away and nobody knows who they are. [evil]

unicorn
07-Dec-07, 13:47
People seem to have so little respect for human life these days, so what is an animal to these people. Education from a young age is maybe the key although it is a sad world when compassion for other living beings and creatures is something that needs to be on the national curriculum :roll:

NickInTheNorth
07-Dec-07, 14:01
<snip> ... psychiatric help would be a good start. As for not naming him I feel that if you are such a hard big man to do something like this to an innocent animal then you should have to face your actions in public ...

Hope you don't mind me snipping away some of your post, I don't think I am misrepresenting what you are saying.

I do agree it is a despicable act, and one that thankfully most people would not dream of carrying out.

I therefore would agree that the lad would probably benefit from some psychiatric help. But if he were to be given such help, presumably the intent would be to help him to understand what he did was wrong, and get him to change his ways so that he would not do the same thing again?

That being the case why do you believe that society would benefit from knowing his name? Even at 15 he is still a child, why should a child (however misguided) be named and shamed in public. Surely he deserves a chance to learn from his mistakes, and to be allowed to grow into an adult without a stain on his character. A stain that in our media driven society would never be allowed to fade away.

Liz
07-Dec-07, 14:04
People seem to have so little respect for human life these days, so what is an animal to these people. Education from a young age is maybe the key although it is a sad world when compassion for other living beings and creatures is something that needs to be on the national curriculum :roll:

Completely agree. However, I think you either have compassion or you don't? Can you really be taught to be compassionate?

As someone else said it has been proven that those who inflict cruelty on an innocent animal often go on to be criminals and murderers so these cases should be treated far more seriously. Of course they should anyway as cruelty to animals should be treated with far tougher sentencing!
Many of the sentences passed on those who have caused cruelty to an animal are ridiculously lenient and don't serve as a deterrent!

It is beyond me how any warped mind can find fun in the suffering of others!!
Are they born like this do you think?
I know that some will say they are doing this because of their upbringing but then there are many who have had awful childhoods but grow up to be compassionate , good people.

NickInTheNorth
07-Dec-07, 14:04
I agree that this is a despicable act but if you agree this boy should have been guided by a recognition that animals do feel pain, suffering, a state of well-being, sensations and emotions, then we should remind ourselves that we are also culpable on many scales of magnitude more by demanding cheap food, burning fossil fuels to excess, and clearing land for development.


So if you pay for a man to inflict acts of cruelty on an animal whilst you sleep soundly in your bed, does that make you innocent?:confused


Unicorn, I agree with your abhorence to animal cruelty and this case in particular, but for goodness sake, in terms of global effects, it is only a hamster! It won't be the first and it won't be the last animal to get killed by a sadist! But consider this, I don't know how much court cases cost these days but if that amount of money was spent on educating third world farmers on how to farm sustainably or providing a dancing bear keeper with alternative employment then I think we will get better value for our money in terms of preventing animal cruelty. Just my 2p. Unicorn, please don't feel I am picking on you or that you need to justify your position, you don't, I AGREE with you, it is sick.

Can't put it any better so I'll just use your words Rheged

carasmam
07-Dec-07, 15:27
Crikey yes! God forbid that any topic be broadened out and explored in any real world context!

Bad lad..should have corporal punishment brought back just for him..indeed why stop there ..capital punishment..or is hanging too good for him?:lol:

That's an answer you are more comfortable with..requires no real thought... just a knee jerk!

karia

Dont think there is any need to be quite so sarky [disgust]

karia
07-Dec-07, 15:39
Dont think there is any need to be quite so sarky [disgust]

Hi carasmam,

Sometimes you have to paint your irony with a heavy hand here, lest it be innocently misconstrued or deliberately misinterpreted and I wouldn't want anyone to think for a moment that I was actually in favour of either corporal or capital punishment.

karia

Margaret M.
07-Dec-07, 18:39
I know that some will say they are doing this because of their upbringing but then there are many who have had awful childhoods but grow up to be compassionate , good people.

I totally agree, Liz. There are evil people in this world who get their kicks by inflicting pain and suffering on other human beings or animals that cannot defend themselves. My wish for them is for their hearts to soften and their conscience to trouble them for the rest of their lives for their despicable deeds and acts of cruelty.

_Ju_
07-Dec-07, 18:47
So this case is just fine by you both, and we all kill animals anyway so who cares, sorry no respect here.

The point is not that the animals are killed for food, but the way they are raised in "factories" that totally disrespect any instincts and need they have except that of food to grow quickly and cheaply. That in it's self is cruel, if not as cruel as what was done to this hamster. Everytime a person opts for that battery raised chicken or bacon, we are re-enforcing the production systems and are personally responsible for the life that animal lead.

paris
07-Dec-07, 18:55
I worked for the R.S.P.C.A. for a number of years and believe me this is nothing compared to some forms of crueltyi have seen in the past. What must go through the minds of these people who do this sort of thing ? Me, i would like to do the same to them as they do to animals. ![evil] jan x

percy toboggan
07-Dec-07, 19:04
It's a well known fact that children who hurt animals go onto hurting humans

No they do not. Not all of them. You need to think about 'well known facts'
Many do ,I will not deny. It is not a good sign. Sometimes the inadequacies of a childs mind mature down the right path.

This sicko , at fifteen , is a pervert - plain and simple. A hamster is a hamster is a hamster. A sentient being which deserved better. That said , the boy should be closely supervised and perhaps given a good thrashing.

Liz
07-Dec-07, 19:14
I worked for the R.S.P.C.A. for a number of years and believe me this is nothing compared to some forms of crueltyi have seen in the past. What must go through the minds of these people who do this sort of thing ? Me, i would like to do the same to them as they do to animals. ![evil] jan x

That must have been so awful for you to witness such cruelty first hand!
It's sickening!


No they do not. Not all of them. You need to think about 'well known facts'
Many do ,I will not deny. It is not a good sign. Sometimes the inadequacies of a childs mind mature down the right path.

This sicko , at fifteen , is a pervert - plain and simple. A hamster is a hamster is a hamster. A sentient being which deserved better. That said , the boy should be closely supervised and perhaps given a good thrashing.

Yes, you are right. I know of some people who did awful things to animals whilst they were young but turned out okay. Hopefully, they regret it now!

However, I think that such an ongoing attack on this poor wee hamster shows a more 'wicked' (can't think of another word as I am tired!) mind don't you think and I am sure this is the kind of person who has been shown to go on and become criminals when adults.

connieb19
07-Dec-07, 20:01
Why is this bloke not banned from keeping pets for life? [disgust]:(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7133435.stm

golach
07-Dec-07, 20:15
I don't think Unicorn posted this thread as a concern for the hamster, but as a concern for this despicable act of cruelty by a teenage sub human on a defenseless animal that was someones pet. IMO this 15 year old is old enough to be named and shamed, and is in the same category as the thugs that played football with a hedgehog.

This is what I said Karia, nowhere did I mention punishment of any kind, except naming and shaming!!!


Crikey yes! God forbid that any topic be broadened out and explored in any real world context!
Bad lad..should have corporal punishment brought back just for him..indeed why stop there ..capital punishment..or is hanging too good for him?:lol:
That's an answer you are more comfortable with..requires no real thought... just a knee jerk!karia

By your use of a smiley in your sentence referring to capital punishment and hanging, are we to assume you think these subjects are somewhat humourous, because I don't, I think they are a very serious subject

hotrod4
07-Dec-07, 20:15
This lovely little darling will probably get a nice little holiday at our expense due to the "trauma" he has suffered.

A size 10 right up the exit sign would be too good for this little thug.
Remember the old qoute-"do unto others as you would have done to yourself"
and not forgetting "what goes around comes around".
Hope Karma comes back on him big time.

badger
07-Dec-07, 20:17
This is obviously sickening, like all other acts of deliberate cruelty. It scares me that the number of cases of child abuse seems to be increasing, sometimes again with unbelieveable cruelty. But - are all those of you who are so rightly shocked absolutely sure that all the meat you eat has not been subjected to weeks or months of cruelty in its short life. Do you know where your Christmas turkey comes from? Turkeys, if allowed to be, are apparently very affectionate animals. Not much chance for them in a factory farm. All pork marked EU is suspect - have you seen the way pigs, which are highly intelligent, are kept in some countries? Do you only buy genuinely free range chickens? Same goes for eggs. We may not be directly torturing all these animals but so long as we support it indirectly are we all so blameless?

unicorn
07-Dec-07, 20:23
The sentences for animal abuse are ridiculous, there really isn't any justice for their suffering or any concern on the part of the abusers of getting a stiff sentence.
Banning a man who beats a puppy to death from owning an animal for 10 years is pointless, who polices it? You can't get the police out for serious assaults and thefts in some area's so what are the chances of getting them out if you report someone for being in possesion of an animal when banned. Very slim I would think

Welcomefamily
07-Dec-07, 21:03
Children are what they learn, what they are taught, some family values.

scorrie
07-Dec-07, 21:12
Some differing opinions here. The world is surely filled with cruelty. Man on beast, man on his fellow man. Most of it we never hear about, probably most of us prefer it that way.

There are different reasons why people resort to acts we would consider to be cruel. Some people are simply from a culture that regards animals differently to the way we do in our country. To them, a cat or dog is the same as a cow or pig to us i.e. a meal. Another reason for actions that directly, or indirectly, inflict cruelty on animals, is the simple matter of scraping a living.

It can be easy for us to judge people in other situations, when we have jobs, money, a home, food etc. Some people don't have that luxury and have to resort to some dire acts in order to make a life for themselves. People in the UK prostitute themselves for money. I don't see a big difference in someone else in another country carrying out an act we would consider cruel for the same ends.

Then we come to people who seem to enjoy inflicting cruelty. There seems to be no other motive than an evil act for amusement. I recall two guys at Wick High who killed a cat for fun and who took great delight in relaying the gory details. I don't know where one guy ended up but the other joined the Army, so I assume he was not THAT dysfunctional. Our current culture of blame would tend to suggest that we should question why (and in what ways) WE failed those lads. Surely their parents are to blame?

I take the view that it would be pretty much impossible for any child to go through life without encountering some basic concept about what is right and what is wrong. Parents obviously play a massive part in the way a child develops but outside of that is the basic level of social acceptability which should allow most youngsters to understand that it is not correct, for example, to use a dormouse as a golf ball. I believe that cruelty is something you are either capable of doing or not. So often I have listened to all the reasoning as to why a heinous crime was committed. Society is blamed, culture is blamed, parents are blamed etc. I simply ask, WHO pulled the trigger?, WHO wielded the knife?, WHO tied the Guinea Pig to the firework?

Capital Punishment? Too much. Corporal Punishment? Maybe too much.

Let's hear it for Private Punishment i.e. a good old boot in the Tom Jones.

karia
07-Dec-07, 21:16
This is what I said Karia, nowhere did I mention punishment of any kind, except naming and shaming!!!



By your use of a smiley in your sentence referring to capital punishment and hanging, are we to assume you think these subjects are somewhat humourous, because I don't, I think they are a very serious subject

Really?!:eek:

I am surprised..you do seem to bandy them about as cure alls for everything!

Am glad you have reflected on their seriousness..there's hope for you yet!

karia

golach
07-Dec-07, 21:23
Really?!:eek:
I am surprised..you do seem to bandy them about as cure alls for everything!
Am glad you have reflected on their seriousness..there's hope for you yet!
karia
I beg your pardon, I do not understand what your twittering about, would you please elaborate?

Angela
07-Dec-07, 21:25
I am concerned about animal welfare in general. I only eat free range chicken and eggs, and occasionally pork and bacon where I'm led to believe that the pigs (who are very intelligent and sensitive creatures) have been humanely reared.

I do think that deliberately torturing and killing an animal solely for some kind of pleasure and satisfaction is a different matter however. Years ago, the nursery my son was attending was broken into and vandalised. It was hard to see what enjoyment the perpetrators could have got from destroying wee kids' toys. It was even harder to grasp why they had tortured and killed the class guinea pig and stuffed it in a drawer for someone to find. :( :confused

karia
07-Dec-07, 21:35
I beg your pardon, I do not understand what your twittering about, would you please elaborate?

Twittering!

Personal insults again..sheesh!:roll:

To drag out every post where you have cited corporal punishment as the obvious answer to societies ills would be a lifes work ......but people have long memories so I don't have to.:D

karia

golach
07-Dec-07, 21:46
Twittering!
Personal insults again..sheesh!:roll:
To drag out every post where you have cited corporal punishment as the obvious answer to societies ills would be a lifes work ......but people have long memories so I don't have to.:D
karia
What personal insult? I never brought up the subject of corporal punishment in this thread, you did.
My opinions on Corporal punishment do not have anything to do with this thread.
So with respect to Unicorn, who showed her concern reference this incident, and posted her opinion on here, I am not going to enter into any more correspondence on this subject, I do not steal threads for my own gratification.

Welcomefamily
07-Dec-07, 21:48
First Scorrie I must agree that the concept of killing an animal has to be culturally bound however the kid is hardly using the hamster as food and the fact that he has a frezzer, tumble dryer, and washing machine must be evidence for his social economic class. If he was hungry I would have no problem with him biting the head off the hamster and eating it.

However all children do develop a concept of right and wrong from an early age, this concept is refined greatly during repeated experiments to test his social conception in these early years.
At the age of 15 he should know what was right and wrong, the development of an ability to harm is a long term process which has been influenced by all of his social inputs to date and as you say the parents play a huge role.
To be evil you have to learn evil.

unicorn
07-Dec-07, 22:07
Really?!:eek:

I am surprised..you do seem to bandy them about as cure alls for everything!

Am glad you have reflected on their seriousness..there's hope for you yet!

karia


Twittering!

Personal insults again..sheesh!:roll:

To drag out every post where you have cited corporal punishment as the obvious answer to societies ills would be a lifes work ......but people have long memories so I don't have to.

karia

Can we not just keep the thread vaguely on topic? If you want to discuss the morals of corporal punishment can you do it in a seperate thread please?

karia
07-Dec-07, 22:11
Can we not just keep the thread vaguely on topic? If you want to discuss the morals of corporal punishment can you do it in a seperate thread please?

I would be more than happy never to have to discuss them again!

All torture is wrong!

karia

Rheghead
07-Dec-07, 22:13
However all children do develop a concept of right and wrong from an early age, this concept is refined greatly during repeated experiments to test his social conception in these early years.
At the age of 15 he should know what was right and wrong, the development of an ability to harm is a long term process which has been influenced by all of his social inputs to date and as you say the parents play a huge role.
To be evil you have to learn evil.

Your comments have roused my thoughts about right and wrong and I don't really know what the answer is.

Take for example snails or rats. We could put out snail pellets or rat poison out in the garden, nobody would claim that to be cruel because that is pest control. However, if we told a bunch of young boys to go out into the garden and kill snails or rats for the purpose of pest control then we would see a whole manner of deaths being executed. And some folk would say that is wrong and cruel but pest control poisons would provide a slower death than some of the 'live' experiments. So who is being cruel? Who would want a lingering death?

Is it a case of it is wrong that the kids are getting enjoyment out of killing or is it wrong that children are just satisfying their curiosity?

helenwyler
07-Dec-07, 22:27
Surely the most important question in this particular case, and others like it, is why some children do these unimaginable things to animals. Where has this destructive behaviour come from? I don't believe they were born with these tendencies.

They obviously lack empathy and compassion, but why? Most likely they are perpetuating acts of cruelty they have experienced behind closed doors. There are probably other psychological issues which contribute too. This kind of behaviour doesn't come from out of the blue.

The fact that this boy's family possessed a tumble-dryer and a freezer has no bearing on this at all. Do only the very poorest torture animals? A knowledge of right and wrong can also be overridden by disturbed states of mind. Hasn't that happened to all of us at some time?

Both boys who committed the Colombine Massacre had early histories of animal cruelty.

Punishment will satisfy our sense of horror and fear, but it will do nothing to help those children back, if possible, to normal feelings of empathy and compassion.

karia
07-Dec-07, 22:36
[quote=karia;307375]What kind of behaviour is he subjected to that he thinks this is acceptable?

I doubt that he just fetched up that way...spawn of satan like!:eek:
quote]

Thanks helen..tried to say that way back here in post 6 or so.. see above!

TBH
07-Dec-07, 23:15
The way this animal was killed was horrendous and a product of the desensitizing of the worlds vulnerable minds to acts of extreme violence portrayed in movies and video games and perpetrated in real life, i.e, beheading videos available to watch online or download to their mobile phones. Keep feeding them violence until they are apathetic to it.

Is all life precious or is it just the way that we kill them that separates them, when you go to the butchers remember the poor cows that are killed 'humanely' by a bullet in the head, just so you can have your steak but, when people hear about the Koreans or Vietnamese having a penchant for cat or dog then there is an uproar and sheer disgust. Why is eating dog or cat any different to eating cows, sheep, pigs or rabbits? Is it the way they are treated or because they are seen as pets in this country, i.e, if they are killed humanely would people in this country have the same level of disgust or just accept that those people see them as little more than a food source, I doubt it?

shazzap
07-Dec-07, 23:53
No they do not. Not all of them. You need to think about 'well known facts'
Many do ,I will not deny. It is not a good sign. Sometimes the inadequacies of a childs mind mature down the right path.

This sicko , at fifteen , is a pervert - plain and simple. A hamster is a hamster is a hamster. A sentient being which deserved better. That said , the boy should be closely supervised and perhaps given a good thrashing.

Ok i stand corrected i have just read again what i posted and missed out
( some ) children.

scorrie
08-Dec-07, 00:07
However, if we told a bunch of young boys to go out into the garden and kill snails or rats for the purpose of pest control.


There is still a difference in killing vermin simply to prevent unsanitary conditions, potential diseases etc and the mentality of killing solely to provide enjoyment/pleasure for yourself. I think we need to keep that distinction clear in order to analyse the mindset of individuals who carry out the latter.

scorrie
08-Dec-07, 00:13
Punishment will satisfy our sense of horror and fear, but it will do nothing to help those children back, if possible, to normal feelings of empathy and compassion.

You must also consider the fact that taking the softly-softly approach and lavishing attention on the problem children of the world may well breed a culture where children see that they can be the centre of attention through anti-social behaviour. We are already at that point, to some extent, as it is by being legally obliged to look after prisoners, while the law-abiding citizens can starve in their frozen homes without a second glance.

TBH
08-Dec-07, 00:20
There is still a difference in killing vermin simply to prevent unsanitary conditions, potential diseases etc and the mentality of killing solely to provide enjoyment/pleasure for yourself. I think we need to keep that distinction clear in order to analyse the mindset of individuals who carry out the latter.What about those that keep animals in horrendous conditions and just do it not because they derive any pleasure but because they see that animal as nothing more than sustenance?

scorrie
08-Dec-07, 00:37
What about those that keep animals in horrendous conditions and just do it not because they derive any pleasure but because they see that animal as nothing more than sustenance?

That is not the subject of this thread. The situation you describe would be classed as neglect. If we are to look at neglect amongst those who keep livestock, then we are into a scenario where we have to consider that we are all responsible for it to some extent. As others have said earlier, we tend to desire cheap food and not ask too many questions about what happened along the way to our plates. Free range, organic and Freedom food is available but is invariably more expensive. Some people simply can't afford to eat ethically, others will have a point where the wallet outweighs the conscience.

helenwyler
08-Dec-07, 00:45
You must also consider the fact that taking the softly-softly approach and lavishing attention on the problem children of the world may well breed a culture where children see that they can be the centre of attention through anti-social behaviour. We are already at that point, to some extent, as it is by being legally obliged to look after prisoners, while the law-abiding citizens can starve in their frozen homes without a second glance.

Scorrie, 'softly softly' and 'lavishing attention' are loaded words. I am not a bleeding heart liberal by any means, and I don't think my post suggested that stance. I've had animals all my life, and am truly sickened by what some people do to them.

I agree that anti-social behaviour should be stamped on in young people. I would never want to encourage or defend it.

But this kind of destructive cruelty is surely darker and more complex than merely 'anti-social'.

Stavro
08-Dec-07, 01:24
How awful, that is truly sick behavior to treat a small and defenseless little creature like that. If he can’t be trusted with little then he can’t be trusted with much. The very fact that he is harboring such hate thoughts could lead to further and greater crimes. That small hamster was a living and breathing soul just as we are.

I wonder if anyone has seen the video entitled “Earthlings”, it is a very disturbing picture, so very sad what man is doing with the Earth.

“We need another and a wiser and perhaps a more mystical concept of animals. Remote from universal nature, and living by complicated artifice, man in civilization surveys the creatures through the glass of his knowledge and sees thereby a feather magnified and the whole image in distortion. We patronize them for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren; they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth”. - The Outermost House - Henry Beston

Changing subject slightly, Karma is probably true, every action has a re-action and we can never escape the cosmic justice. We should always try and do good, and even little things go a long way.

danc1ngwitch
08-Dec-07, 15:10
this article has thoroughly shocked and disgusted me. What on earth posseses a person to be so cruel to a living creature. A 15 year old boy freezes a hamster, sticks it in the tumble dryer and then puts it in the washing machine before dumping it in the bin and what does he get for it a 4 year ban on keeping animals and a 12 month supervision order :eek: psychiatric help would be a good start. As for not naming him I feel that if you are such a hard big man to do something like this to an innocent animal then you should have to face your actions in public.If this was my son who had done this I would be arrested after I got my hands on him.
Warning pictures may offend.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1295827,00.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1295827,00.html)
mayb he is being abused......... u do terrible things to animals wen u abused.

honey
08-Dec-07, 15:12
It's a well known fact that children who hurt animals go onto hurting humans

aye, how many serial kilers to you read about who "started of hurting small animals" before going on to commit some of the most depraved acts we could ever imagine?

luskentyre
11-Dec-07, 01:12
The sentence is an utter joke. A 4-year ban on keeping animals? That should be a lifetime ban for a start.

It's frightening to think that this individual is capable of having children in the not too distant future.

I think I'd stick him in a freezer, until his hands were raw from trying to get out, and then he'd just get a taste of what it feels like to inflict that on a living creature.