White-Black Scots-African blues-gospel connection

[The Pepsi Challenge]

There's been many a discussion surrounding the Blues and its origins: everyone has their own idea of how and where it came about. So let me open a can of worms. Willie Ruff, the musicologist and French horn player from Alabama, studied the roots of blues and gospel in the Hebrides a few years back. For me, his findings relate to my own personal feelings about the Blues. So please take the time to read this piece: http://heritage.scotsman.com/traditions.cfm?id=609532005

To think that blues, rap, bebop, tap, jazz, ragtime, funk and beyond, all might have originated in the Western Highlands. Now that's food for thought.

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Anyone interested in reading up further on the subject might want to check this thread on Footstompin.

http://www.footstompin.com/public/forum?threadid=28838

[fred]

There's been many a discussion surrounding the Blues and its origins: everyone has their own idea of how and where it came about. So let me open a can of worms. Willie Ruff, the musicologist and French horn player from Alabama, studied the roots of blues and gospel in the Hebrides a few years back. For me, his findings relate to my own personal feelings about the Blues. So please take the time to read this piece: http://heritage.scotsman.com/traditions.cfm?id=609532005

To think that blues, rap, bebop, tap, jazz, ragtime, funk and beyond, all might have originated in the Western Highlands. Now that's food for thought.

That's wishful thinking.

Having an influence on isn't the same as originating in. Blues means a lot of things to a lot of people, to me it's the drudgery of the train wheels in the bass and lonesome whistle of despair in the lead.

[K dragon]

i thought blues originated from early black slave "chain gangs"

they would sing their woes together in the fileds or wherever they were being forced to work. it was expression of their feelings but also a mechanism to show that they were united. it also acted as a small warning to the wardens and masters that is pushed to far you deal with all, not one.

well thats what i was "taught"

but true there are many many origins. maybe there all right. small slices in the same pie.

[rob murray]

There's been many a discussion surrounding the Blues and its origins: everyone has their own idea of how and where it came about. So let me open a can of worms. Willie Ruff, the musicologist and French horn player from Alabama, studied the roots of blues and gospel in the Hebrides a few years back. For me, his findings relate to my own personal feelings about the Blues. So please take the time to read this piece: http://heritage.scotsman.com/traditions.cfm?id=609532005 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://heritage.scotsman.com/traditions.cfm?id=609532005)

To think that blues, rap, bebop, tap, jazz, ragtime, funk and beyond, all might have originated in the Western Highlands. Now that's food for thought.

G2 makes a similar point. But what we are discussing is structure or musical form ie rythmn and melodic structure. Traditional Scottish music is centred around the three chord trick or i iv v (with, where required, the related minors ) as is blues in its basic format ie i iv v. ( G2 's point ) But this is just structure, music has to be seen and interpreted within a social economic context / wider context. Put simply, afro american slaves / afro americans post slavery, used a "familar" music structure, but one which was unknown to them in their home countries and hence had to be adopted and modifed ( primarily in subtle rythmic changes ) from their white masters. The lyrical content and feel however of black blues, what makes it definitley totally unique is derived from shared experiences, hence making the "familiar" there own ! However it could also be argued that trad scottish music ( lyrical content ) is based on personal hardships as derived from lsoing land and identity. Only difference is some scots did very well in the US whilst no afro americans did to the same extent.

This is the best crack I bhave had on this site, excellent stuff, well done to all !!

[Metalattakk]

That's wishful thinking.

Having an influence on isn't the same as originating in. Blues means a lot of things to a lot of people, to me it's the drudgery of the train wheels in the bass and lonesome whistle of despair in the lead.


To me, it's the stoking of the boiler of delusion and the futility of the ticket-collecting of the, er, ticket-collector.

And don't get me started on the buffet car of heart-break. ;)

[rob murray]

To me, it's the stoking of the boiler of delusion and the futility of the ticket-collecting of the, er, ticket-collector.

And don't get me started on the buffet car of heart-break. ;)

Brilliant !!

[Gleber2]

) from their white masters. !

Most of the highlanders who moved to America were indentured servants who had to work for seven years to pay their passage etc. After the civil war the black workers had to be paid whereas the Celtic newcomers did not. The blacks learned the 6/8 lament and four four march from the new slaves who replaced them.

[rob murray]

Most of the highlanders who moved to America were indentured servants who had to work for seven years to pay their passage etc. After the civil war the black workers had to be paid whereas the Celtic newcomers did not. The blacks learned the 6/8 lament and four four march from the new slaves who replaced them.

John I would take issue here, post 1865 freed slaves enjoyed parity of economic, legal and social rights ? Black workers had to be paid !! lol loll lol. Absolutely not, ever heard of the terms Jim Crow and Sharecroppers, southern afro americans denied the right to even register to vote and in economic terms ( sharecopper ) the term to use is "serf". Defy the man and people became "strange fruit" eh !! The origins of the KKK ( imagery etc ) came from scots, scots populated the carolina's and south c17th century and beyond, the majority of carolina scots actually fought for George 111 in the war of independence, the irony is that most of the scots were land owners who left after the 45. ( Flora Macdonald of the skye boat song / prince charlie fame, lost her US estates after her husband fought for the crown.No afro american ever owned estates !! ) Yes ordinary scottish serfs ( clansmen ) suffered badly ( primarily in scotland ) but not in a million years can the lot of the scots ( indentured or not ) be compared to the suffering endured by afro americans

[scotsboy]

Rob I suggest you have a read of Born Fighting: How the Scots Irish Shaped America...........it paints a slghtly different picture.

[Gleber2]

serfs ( clansmen ) suffered badly ( primarily in scotland ) but not in a million years can the lot of the scots ( indentured or not ) be compared to the suffering endured by afro americans
I never suggested that Scots had it worse than the Africans and nor would I.

[rob murray]

Rob I suggest you have a read of Born Fighting: How the Scots Irish Shaped America...........it paints a slghtly different picture.
I dont know where you are comming from, please give me the basic arguement I would welcome it, however try these

http://www.1718migration.org.uk/s_whyTheyLeft.asp (http://www.1718migration.org.uk/s_whyTheyLeft.asp)

why people left scotland

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/world/victorian_west.htm (http://www.electricscotland.com/history/world/victorian_west.htm)

what scots expereinced in the Victorian era “wild west”

http://www.saorsamedia.com/shop/HSTeachingMaterials.pdf (http://www.saorsamedia.com/shop/HSTeachingMaterials.pdf)

Expereinces of Scottish highland immigrants in north americas

You will find that on balance, scots did well as immigrants in the US

[fred]

i thought blues originated from early black slave "chain gangs"


I've no doubt it did but I think what most people think of as "The Blues" took off in the depression of the thirties with musicians travelling from city to city looking for work. All the aspects of blues certainly existed before that, in various places, as did the name but that's when it all came together and spread, before that I think it was just a form of country music. It's an urban music not rural, about the bars and clubs they played in and the freight trains they travelled on and the prisons they usually ended up in, distinct from the songs of the workers in the fields.

[rob murray]

I never suggested that Scots had it worse than the Africans and nor would I.

Your own words check " Most of the highlanders who moved to America were indentured servants who had to work for seven years to pay their passage etc. After the civil war the black workers had to be paid whereas the Celtic newcomers did not. The blacks learned the 6/8 lament and four four march from the new slaves who replaced them."

I would say that you clearly make and have made an implication. Read it again or re phrase what you originally meant to say, especially your statement ....

"After the civil war the black workers had to be paid whereas the Celtic newcomers did not".

So, former slaves were paid therefore their economic lot relative to unpaid celtic new commers was better, thats your implication !!!!

"The blacks learned the 6/8 lament and four four march from the new slaves who replaced them"

Here you end your implication by clearly implying that celtic newcommers were the new slaves

You are clearly using a negative relative arguement !!!

[scotsboy]

I dont know where you are comming from, please give me the basic arguement I would welcome it, however try these

http://www.1718migration.org.uk/s_whyTheyLeft.asp (http://www.1718migration.org.uk/s_whyTheyLeft.asp)

why people left scotland

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/world/victorian_west.htm (http://www.electricscotland.com/history/world/victorian_west.htm)

what scots expereinced in the Victorian era “wild west”

http://www.saorsamedia.com/shop/HSTeachingMaterials.pdf (http://www.saorsamedia.com/shop/HSTeachingMaterials.pdf)

Expereinces of Scottish highland immigrants in north americas

You will find that on balance, scots did well as immigrants in the US




Not arguing or coming from anywhere Rob - simply suggesting it is worth a read.

[rob murray]

Not arguing or coming from anywhere Rob - simply suggesting it is worth a read.

Sorry, just checked it out on Amazon reviews, its now on my christmas list, thanks very much !!

[scotsboy]

You are welcome. It is a very good read.

[Gleber2]

Your own words check " Most of the highlanders who moved to America were indentured servants who had to work for seven years to pay their passage etc. After the civil war the black workers had to be paid whereas the Celtic newcomers did not. The blacks learned the 6/8 lament and four four march from the new slaves who replaced them."

I would say that you clearly make and have made an implication. Read it again or re phrase what you originally meant to say, especially your statement ....

"After the civil war the black workers had to be paid whereas the Celtic newcomers did not".

So, former slaves were paid therefore their economic lot relative to unpaid celtic new commers was better, thats your implication !!!!

"The blacks learned the 6/8 lament and four four march from the new slaves who replaced them"

Here you end your implication by clearly implying that celtic newcommers were the new slaves

You are clearly using a negative relative arguement !!!
I imply only that the Highlanders were treated like slaves and replaced the emancipated negroes after the Civil War.
If you want to start an argument about the comparative bad treatment received by disparate groups of displaced people in the US of A, then I suggest you start another thread in the General section where music is not the subject. The observations I made were relative to the musical questions not the social conditions under which both the negros and the Scots/Irish had to live.

[Jeemag_USA]

Listen to the band called "Baka Beyond" and see how well scottish folk and african music fit so beautifully together. For those of you who haven't heard of them before you may have heard of "Outback" a couple of the members from them formed Baka Beyond. Great music.

Personally I think its a bit silly for anyone to lay claim to any country being an origin of music. Its not really important where it came from, it came from humans and their fascination with rhythm.

[fred]

Personally I think its a bit silly for anyone to lay claim to any country being an origin of music. Its not really important where it came from, it came from humans and their fascination with rhythm.

No, it doesn't matter about "The Star Spangled Banner" being British...or "Hail to the Chief", they're nice tunes anyway:)

[Jeemag_USA]

No, it doesn't matter about "The Star Spangled Banner" being British...or "Hail to the Chief", they're nice tunes anyway:)

You lost me there Fred ?

[fred]

You lost me there Fred ?

The music for Star Spangled Banner was an English music hall song and Hail to the Chief was nicked from a British opera.

[rob murray]

I imply only that the Highlanders were treated like slaves and replaced the emancipated negroes after the Civil War.
If you want to start an argument about the comparative bad treatment received by disparate groups of displaced people in the US of A, then I suggest you start another thread in the General section where music is not the subject. The observations I made were relative to the musical questions not the social conditions under which both the negros and the Scots/Irish had to live.

I am not arguing my friend, I am correcting you, your opening statment, as repeated above is factually and historically in correct. On your second point to open anothe rthread : The history of the Gael is recorded in songs and poems ie the "music" is grounded in the economic and social context of the Gael and their experiences as expressed through words / music, ditto what is populary known as "blues". Music is derived, shaped and influenced by factors that impact upon societal elements...( social conditions ) I think you would agree here, wouldnt you !! Hence logically you have to be wrong. Remember...I am not arguing, I am merely correcting you.

[WeeRob]

If these two pensioners can stop "correcting" each other then we can talk about music...........

Good to hear you're passionate about black music Pepsi! I had this all dreamt up years ago after hearing a recording of the Back Free Church on Lewis 'lining out'. Sounds similar to a lot of Lomax's recordings. Though, it has to be stated, the black churches tried to bring themselves in line with 'white' churches in the 30s - 40s by introducing hymnsheets: hence why lining out is only rarely practiced in black churches these days. Put on a gospel channel on the TV - doesn't sound the same does it?

But you can't link lining out to the whole spectrum of black music - you have to take into consideration the disperate other influences, the songsters, the borrowed folk traditions from other nations. Jazz originates in New Orleans, a French speaking city - not much Scottish influence there!

There was a TV programme on this not long ago. One old black singer heard the gaelic choir and was asked his thoughts......

"Makes me wanna get on up and holla!"


PS If we're talking african american / Scottish relations then didn't we invent the KKK????? Food for thought!

[canuck]

And it was in American Scottish Churches where the movement began to abolish slavery.

[Aaldtimer]

"PS If we're talking african american / Scottish relations then didn't we invent the KKK????? Food for thought!"
No Weerob, we didn't. They, in their perversity, took a Scottish symbol (the fiery cross) and used it to their own ends.
They may have been Scottish, indeed a lot of slave owners were, but I don't think this was an "invention". This was a bunch of bigots looking after their own interests.

[WeeRob]

"PS If we're talking african american / Scottish relations then didn't we invent the KKK????? Food for thought!"
No Weerob, we didn't. They, in their perversity, took a Scottish symbol (the fiery cross) and used it to their own ends.
They may have been Scottish, indeed a lot of slave owners were, but I don't think this was an "invention". This was a bunch of bigots looking after their own interests.


Well, there is a lot of debate about the Scots role in the KKK. From the article Pepsi referred to : "Although the Enlightenment, especially Francis Hutcheson’s A System of Moral Philosophy, inspired the abolitionists in both Britain and America, Scotland’s darker role in the slave trade is also well known. Scots were influential in founding the Ku Klux Klan, including the traditional Scottish symbol of the burning cross and the KKK’s oath ceremony, which originated from a Highland custom."

See also : http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=723412003 An article by a Scottish historian

Though perhaps the last word should be had by Willie Ruff, who kicked this thread off to begin with: "There will be Scots who are uncomfortable with the relationship and the involvement in the slave trade. But the Scots are like anyone, and there were many who were abolitionists and who set up schools for black children after emancipation."

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Continuing the blues theme, for those looking for blues that's a little... well... real (in the true sense of the word), you might want to take a look at what Fat Possum - a label from Oxford, Mississippi - are doing. A few years ago I spoke with Matthew Johnson who runs the label. As he said to me, and indeed in this fantastic, gripping feature written in The Observer (link below), fleshing out what is left of authentic old-school blues is a bit like squeezing out what's left inside the toothpaste packet. Anyone with a genuine interest in the blues ought to read this well-written piece.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/omm/story/0,13887,1083277,00.html