View Full Version : How do you define "rock music" in 2007
rob murray
04-Dec-07, 14:28
I thought I would start up a new thread to see if I can get a bit of clarity on the definition of "rock music" in 2007 : ie what exactly is rock music and which bands play it ? Most people can say what it is not ( "indie" ?? and thats debatable ) but what is it ? Answers please !
I thought I would start up a new thread to see if I can get a bit of clarity on the definition of "rock music" in 2007 : ie what exactly is rock music and which bands play it ? Most people can say what it is not ( "indie" ?? and thats debatable ) but what is it ? Answers please !
It's all in the beat, the beat that started with the tribal drums in Africa and was taken to America by slaves. Middle of last century they put the beat to all sorts of music, country, blues, jazz, gospel and rock music was born, they all converged and immediately started diverging again, like an hour glass with rock and roll in the middle.
If it has the beat it's rock as what else you want to call it.
It's all in the beat, the beat that started with the tribal drums in Africa and was taken to America by slaves.
The beat that started in the Highlands and was taken to America by Highland refugees.
Camel Spider
04-Dec-07, 18:50
Foo Fighters.
Jeemag_USA
04-Dec-07, 19:18
From the british side of things I still think of these bands, just a few examples. (and yes I am out of touch a little bit). For me it is bands who ar playing guitar/drum/bass based music but cnnot be defined into any genre like Metal/Grunge/Thrash/Punk except I have made an exception in the american list.
Stereophonics
Radiohead
Manic Street Preachers
From the USA
Red Hot Chilli Peppers
Foo Fighters
Green Day
Nickelback
Linkin Park
I include Green Day even though most people in the music industry tag them as a Punk band, I don't think they sound anything like punk and feel they are more a guitar rock band. Along with Linkin Park I also think Incubus has helped in pushing the boundaries of rock music, I like both of them a lot. Another band that I thought were a great rock band from the UK that most felt were a punk band was ASH, I thought they were brilliant!
The beat that started in the Highlands and was taken to America by Highland refugees.
An interesting theory but you know the early purveyors of rock and roll tended to have dark skins and tended not to wear kilts.
The snare drum of Led Zeppelin and the hand clap of the negro spiritual are one and the same animal.
An interesting theory but you know the early purveyors of rock and role tended to have dark skins and tended not to wear kilts.
The snare drum of Led Zeppelin and the hand clap of the negro spiritual are one and the same animal.
Quite a few theories that the spiritual singing is based on mouth music from Scotland
Boozeburglar
04-Dec-07, 20:44
Taj Mahal, Tinawiren, Ali Farka Toure, Peatbog Faeries… Zeppelin, Sabbath, Van Halen, AC/DC, The Dead, Beefheart, all of them...
It is all a crossover. Whatever way you look at it.
I do feel Africa is the greater source, but is it really reasonable to suggest that Rock, Blues, Soul, Jazz, Gospel and all the rest somehow descended from a limited ancestry without integrating many other influences on the way?
It takes just a little to turn a soul song into a heavy metal song, relatively speaking. If you were to contrast Mongolian throat singing and the 1812 Overture played by a large orchestra; you begin to see how little 'popular' music formats vary.
Quite a few theories that the spiritual singing is based on mouth music from Scotland
I'm sure it was influenced by many things all music is.
I know which I believe to be the greatest influence but people can look on youtube for traditional Scottish mouth music and traditional African music and judge for themselves.
loganbiffy
04-Dec-07, 21:46
From the british side of things I still think of these bands, just a few examples. (and yes I am out of touch a little bit). For me it is bands who ar playing guitar/drum/bass based music but cnnot be defined into any genre like Metal/Grunge/Thrash/Punk except I have made an exception in the american list.
Stereophonics
Radiohead
Manic Street Preachers
From the USA
Red Hot Chilli Peppers
Foo Fighters
Green Day
Nickelback
Linkin Park
I include Green Day even though most people in the music industry tag them as a Punk band, I don't think they sound anything like punk and feel they are more a guitar rock band. Along with Linkin Park I also think Incubus has helped in pushing the boundaries of rock music, I like both of them a lot. Another band that I thought were a great rock band from the UK that most felt were a punk band was ASH, I thought they were brilliant!
Incubus are a great band, seen them live too. I say Green Day are a Punk band as its only there most recent record that is more 'rocky' even thought a lot of the songs on it are punky, but there old stuff is most definatley punk.
Also don't really class The Chilis as rock, they were very funky before they released "By the Way" which is pretty shoddy along with their newer stuff too.
One Hot Minute was more of a Rock album. I liked it best out of all RHCP albums.
I don't think Rock music can be defined by any one band, or in fact, any group of bands. I think Rock is whatever you think it is... same goes for any style of music. Punk is especially hard to pick out. There are too many sub genres of genres now. Ie, Foo Fighters, one person on this thread has said that they define rock music for them. I'd say they are Pop Rock. Green Day, the same.. or is it pop punk? I don't honestly know. I don't see it as an important.
If I had to define rock music however, personally it's a band consisting of 3-5 members playing loud distorted guitars, a tight rhythm section and a melodic, catchy vocal.
Each to their own though...
loganbiffy
04-Dec-07, 22:49
One Hot Minute was more of a Rock album. I liked it best out of all RHCP albums.
I don't think Rock music can be defined by any one band, or in fact, any group of bands. I think Rock is whatever you think it is... same goes for any style of music. Punk is especially hard to pick out. There are too many sub genres of genres now. Ie, Foo Fighters, one person on this thread has said that they define rock music for them. I'd say they are Pop Rock. Green Day, the same.. or is it pop punk? I don't honestly know. I don't see it as an important.
If I had to define rock music however, personally it's a band consisting of 3-5 members playing loud distorted guitars, a tight rhythm section and a melodic, catchy vocal.
Each to their own though...
I see what you are saying about One Hot Minute being more rocky than previous albums, i think this is to do with Dave Navarros' iinfluence, him coming from a rockier background. I also think One Hot Minute has plenty of great funk moments on it as well tho, especially through the bass playing and certain parts of the songs on guitar with little funky licks.
Then again it's all down to personal opinion.
Indeed it is biy. If you compare it to how I view rock bands, then it fits with the pattern. Distorted guitars, tight rhythm section and a melodic vocal on top.
Navarro is better than Frusciante in my personal opinion anyway...
loganbiffy
05-Dec-07, 00:19
Indeed it is biy. If you compare it to how I view rock bands, then it fits with the pattern. Distorted guitars, tight rhythm section and a melodic vocal on top.
Navarro is better than Frusciante in my personal opinion anyway...
Tbh i prefer Hillel Slovaks' style of play to either johns or daves. Hillel also taught Flea to play bass, a very talented but troubled man Mr. Slovak was.
Jeemag_USA
05-Dec-07, 01:22
I grew up through and with punk and was a fan, I have been to see Stiff Little Fingers and The Stranglers several times, and I was a fan of Sex Pistols, Clash, Exploited and so on. For me Punk is defined by the people who started the genre, not those who made a very flat attempt at a second wave, thats why to me Green Day are nothing like a punk band, they are a rock band, but like people always say, its down to the individual and the way he listen to it. If Green Day were around in 1977/78 they probably would have got laughed at for claiming to be punk.
The Pepsi Challenge
05-Dec-07, 04:37
Fred, you might want to read up a bit on Willie Ruff.
Fred, you might want to read up a bit on Willie Ruff.
You don't need to read you just need to listen. What makes rock rock, the beat and the tempo, the hard accentuated off beat, is there in Gospel, it's there in the music of the Caribbean, it's there in the tribal dances of the African natives who dance to drums. You can take a traditional African song and pass it off as modern music because it has the beat, wimoweh wimoweh wimoweh wimoweh.
There are many forms of rock music and they vary a great deal but they all have the the beat that is typical of African tribal music not of traditional Scottish music.
rob murray
05-Dec-07, 10:50
An excellent thread with good debate. I go with Jeid, to me rock is a sound : guitar / riff centred as played distorted, tight bass / drums with a structured melodic top line vocal arrangement. Interestingly I saw a TV programme a couple of years ago where the investigated the source of gospel in the states, one theory as demonstrated by comparing like with like was that in the 17 / 18th century Scots emmigrants to the states established their own churches following the non musical approach still prevalent in the western isles ie sole gaelic singing. A professor of music in the states who was totally against this theory went to the western isles listened and recorded gaelic psalm singing and compared it to early gospel as regards tonality, rhymn and structure. He was blown away as they were both mirror images but with very slight differences in tonality. He accepted that the least that happened was that african slaves, through being directly exposed to their slave owning masters religion and religous ceremonies absorbed key aspects. Its a bit like the chicken and egg question, which comes first, but there is no doubt in musicoligist circles that scottish / gaelic "culture" had a massive impact on music in the states 17 / 18 / 19th century.
The Pepsi Challenge
05-Dec-07, 11:10
It was Willie Ruff from Alabama. Read here: http://heritage.scotsman.com/traditions.cfm?id=609532005
By the way, Chobbers, if you're reading - here's my taste in rock music. You'll find the original link to FSU in the first clip. Enjoy!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cbwxLGohUM0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ui_ZM58HJSg
loganbiffy
05-Dec-07, 11:29
I grew up through and with punk and was a fan, I have been to see Stiff Little Fingers and The Stranglers several times, and I was a fan of Sex Pistols, Clash, Exploited and so on. For me Punk is defined by the people who started the genre, not those who made a very flat attempt at a second wave, thats why to me Green Day are nothing like a punk band, they are a rock band, but like people always say, its down to the individual and the way he listen to it. If Green Day were around in 1977/78 they probably would have got laughed at for claiming to be punk.
I agree, i also enjoy The Clash, Sex Pistols and older Punk bands but times change and so can the styles. If you listen to Green Days' first album 1,039 Smoothed out slappy hours through to their Nimrod album you will hear a lot of Punk tendancies, but as you say its down to the individual.
I see what you are saying about them being more rocky, this is apparent on their most recent album, still with subtle nods to punk.
It is all down to personal choice and i just don't see Green Day as a rock band.
It was Willie Ruff from Alabama. Read here: http://heritage.scotsman.com/traditions.cfm?id=609532005
I'm not saying that the negro spiritual wasn't influenced by Scottish music, I'm saying the part of it which went on to define rock music was African. It is typical of African traditional music, it is typical of the calypso, ska, reggae as well as the Black American music like gospel and New Orleans Jazz.
Take a look at the headbangers at a rock concert, were they influenced by African ritual dancers or a Presbyterian congregation?
I'm not saying that the negro spiritual wasn't influenced by Scottish music, I'm saying the part of it which went on to define rock music was African. It is typical of African traditional music, it is typical of the calypso, ska, reggae as well as the Black American music like gospel and New Orleans Jazz.
Take a look at the headbangers at a rock concert, were they influenced by African ritual dancers or a Presbyterian congregation?
Four to the floor swing and 6/8 lament was the beat of the highlands, the main beats used in trad, blues and swing jazz. As Louis Bellson is reported to have said, " Jazz and Scottish music are the only ones to swing".( not a verbatim quote). We were the last transported slaves and our music combined with the tribal music of the African led to bluegrass, country, blues and jazz. The chords of a blues are so similar to the chords in Scottish traditional.
The Pepsi Challenge
05-Dec-07, 14:14
Take a look at the headbangers at a rock concert, were they influenced by African ritual dancers or a Presbyterian congregation?
Over-expensive cider and badly-produced drugs, I'd say. But I take on your point about rock music, fred. And I have to agree with Gleber2 - I reckon The Blues has its true origins in Scotland.
"Weel ah woke up iss morneen/ cullick, I wiz stingin' way e' blues
I went doon till 'e Crossroads, near Mey/ Feel doon on ma knees
By Christ it was sore/ Especially on 'e hard frost
Bit mind 'e, there wiz old wifey Budge till tend till eh wounded Wullug here.
Ma hert wisna so sore efter all... especially when I got eh biest o' her biested cheese"
Over-expensive cider and badly-produced drugs, I'd say. But I take on your point about rock music, fred. And I have to agree with Gleber2 - I reckon The Blues has its true origins in Scotland.
I expect the ritual dancers in Africa lick the occasional toad and partake of a drop of jungle juice as well but that only enhances the sensation same as with the headbangers.
The ritual dancers of Africa will go into a trance, just like a strobe light at just the right frequency will cause an epileptic fit the rhythm of the drums has an affect on the body and it alters the mind. Same happens with the voodoo dancers of the Caribbean and in the Black American churches, the effects of the rhythm are spiritual and the effects are communal.
That, above all else, is what defines rock music, it's the rhythm that gets into your heart and soul.
The Pepsi Challenge
05-Dec-07, 15:05
Right on, brother.
Over-expensive cider and badly-produced drugs, I'd say. But I take on your point about rock music, fred. And I have to agree with Gleber2 - I reckon The Blues has its true origins in Scotland.
"Weel ah woke up iss morneen/ cullick, I wiz stingin' way e' blues
I went doon till 'e Crossroads, near Mey/ Feel doon on ma knees
By Christ it was sore/ Especially on 'e hard frost
Bit mind 'e, there wiz old wifey Budge till tend till eh wounded Wullug here.
Ma hert wisna so sore efter all... especially when I got eh biest o' her biested cheese"
George Gunn wrote a poem that was on that very subject..... a resurrected Robert Johnson battles with a whistle player for the poets affections outside Castletown hall. You're in Embra ain't ya? Scottish Poetry Library should have it, its in the collection "Whins".
Plus why are we talking about rock? Its the machines that are making the progress these days....... ;)
rob murray
07-Dec-07, 15:44
George Gunn wrote a poem that was on that very subject..... a resurrected Robert Johnson battles with a whistle player for the poets affections outside Castletown hall. You're in Embra ain't ya? Scottish Poetry Library should have it, its in the collection "Whins".
Plus why are we talking about rock? Its the machines that are making the progress these days....... ;)
The whistle player widna be my late faither ( Bobby Murray ) by any chance ? Machines !!! Machines!!! whit kinda machines are ye on aboot check!! Grass cutters, bacon slicers, sausage machines ???
Machines !!! Machines!!! whit kinda machines are ye on aboot check!! Grass cutters, bacon slicers, sausage machines ???
http://tinyurl.com/3bs5gm
rob murray
10-Dec-07, 14:17
http://tinyurl.com/3bs5gm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://tinyurl.com/3bs5gm)
No very good though eh!
i dont know about frankzappa but bob dylan rocks man
Dead Kennedys often get overlooked & i luv em...In fact theyre ma 2nd favourite punk band after the Ramones.
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