View Full Version : Teacher arrested
Has any one else seen this ?
What go you think ?
I think it's madness
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20071126/tuk-sudan-britain-arrest-a7ad41d_1.html?printer=1
Sorry about heading spelling slip of the fingers
Metalattakk
26-Nov-07, 17:50
LOL! You're lucky there - I was just about to suggest another teacher that needed arresting!
Madness ! why ? she is in a country where islam is the religion and allowed the teddy to be called Mohammed which clearly upset a few of the parents. Its their country, their laws and their religion. She is clearly an educated person and should have known better, yes i agree with her teaching methods and ideas behind what she was trying to achieve but she should have been a bit more thoughtful.
Every one's entitled to their opinion Solus
Has any one else seen this ?
What go you think ?
I think it's madness
It's not long since we were just as mad, in the 1920s someone was sentenced to 9 months hard labour for comparing Jesus to a circus clown.
If a Muslim from Sudan teaching six year olds in Britain had called a Teddy Bear Jesus and the Sun got wind of it what do you think would have happened?
I find it a bit strange, but will seek the thoughts of some Muslim friends tomorrow. The default name for everyone (if you dont know their name) is Mohammed - can't see it causing offence myself, but will find out more.
Yes your correct , we are entitled to our opinion.
It's not long since we were just as mad, in the 1920s someone was sentenced to 9 months hard labour for comparing Jesus to a circus clown.
If a Muslim from Sudan teaching six year olds in Britain had called a Teddy Bear Jesus and the Sun got wind of it what do you think would have happened?
Ah, but Jesus is Jesus Christ - Mohammed (Peace be upon him) is just a prophet;)
It's not long since we were just as mad, in the 1920s someone was sentenced to 9 months hard labour for comparing Jesus to a circus clown.
Are you saying that the Islamic world is 80 years behind the times?
Islamic countries follow the Hiijra Calender Rheghead...........its 1428 just now.........make of that what you will:)
Are you saying that the Islamic world is 80 years behind the times?
.........No.
The responsibility for this rests with the British embassy.
Teachers need to be thoroughly briefed before taking up jobs in a land ruled by fundamentalist fanatics.
I would also question the intelligence of this teacher
.........No.
So we are 80 years ahead of the times?:confused
So we are 80 years ahead of the times?:confused
AFAIK our blasphemy laws haven't been repealed, there was talk of it a year or two back but I haven't heard that they actually did it yet.
AFAIK our blasphemy laws haven't been repealed, there was talk of it a year or two back but I haven't heard that they actually did it yet.
Laws don't need to be repealed to stop them being used, public attitudes is the key to that. Though, there were calls for the writer of the 'gay Jesus' play to be prosecuted by religious groups.
Laws don't need to be repealed to stop them being used, public attitudes is the key to that. Though, there were calls for the writer of the 'gay Jesus' play to be prosecuted by religious groups.
We still have religious laws which are enforced, such as bigamy.
northener
26-Nov-07, 21:57
Blasphemy laws are still enforceable in the UK.
There was a very good debate on Sunday morning telly regarding the validity of the current blasphemy laws. Didn't see all of it but even Archbishop Carey ( i think it was him) said he felt the blasphemy laws were outdated and an irrelevance in a multi-cultural society.
There was one (one!) Imam present in the whole audience/debating group. He was challenged over Islams' stance on blasphemy and apostacy (punishable by death). Unfortunately the 'presenter' cut him dead every time he tried to answer.
I'm not a great fan of any religion that doles out death sentances for challenging beliefs, but I'd sooner hear their side of the argument rather than ask them a question and do them the disservice of not giving them the chance to reply in full.
northener
26-Nov-07, 22:02
We still have religious laws which are enforced, such as bigamy.
Good point.
I think that would be slightly different though as bigamy has legal implications (rights to property etc).. Whereas blasphemy is challenging beliefs.
We still have religious laws which are enforced, such as bigamy.
Marriage is a civil contract between a man and a woman. Therefore, Bigamy no more a religious law than murder is. There is no legal requirement to repeal marriage laws, in fact there is greater reason to make it compulsory if anything.
Marriage is a civil contract between a man and a woman. Therefore, Bigamy no more a religious law than murder is. There is no legal requirement to repeal marriage laws, in fact there is greater reason to make it compulsory if anything.
It's still based on religious beliefs.
The laws on alcohol sales are civil laws but it's Sunday morning you can't buy a bottle of whisky.
It's still based on religious beliefs.
The laws on alcohol sales are civil laws but it's Sunday morning you can't buy a bottle of whisky.
#1. It goes further than religious law, it goes against our code of morality, same as murder.
#2. Now you are on hard ground where religion has influenced the laws of this country, but you are scraping the barrel for producing this strawman as a justification for lashing a woman 50 times for breaching blasphemy laws over a teddy bear.
Back to basics! Isn't Mohammed the most common/popular name worldwide?
You'd think they would be pleased having the class bear named after their Prophet.
Not even considering the countries laws etc, I keep thinking how the kids in the class must be feeling if they are aware of what may happen to their teacher.
I don't know what the kids think but if they are Muslim kids and they've been brought up with Muslim teachings of right and wrong then they might think 40 lashes are appropriate. I don't and I'm sure you don't either, but we might if we'd lived in Khartoum all our lives.
There's a longer story with a bit more detail on the BBC (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7112929.stm).
#1. It goes further than religious law, it goes against our code of morality, same as murder.
A morality code based on religious beliefs. Murder is illegal everywhere, if having more than one wife is illegal depends on the state religion of the country you are in.
#2. Now you are on hard ground where religion has influenced the laws of this country, but you are scraping the barrel for producing this strawman as a justification for lashing a woman 50 times for breaching blasphemy laws over a teddy bear.
I wasn't aware that anyone had been lashed 50 times and I wasn't using it to justify anything.
Lolabelle
27-Nov-07, 09:40
I heard about this on the radio this morning!
I think her naming the teddy Mohammad was a bit silly and you would think she didn't think about it.
But to be given 50 lashes is pretty extreme for a misunderstanding.
Can the UK polititians do anything?
According to the BBC, her "crime" was to allow the children in her class to name the bear.
I thought that we had gone PC mad in this country, but these religious fanatics have taken correctness to a new level when they can contemplate administering up to 50 lashes for this sort of thing.
Would they not have been better thought of if they had had a quiet word with the teacher and then issued some sort of statement to the effect that it was not acceptable but that it had been sorted.
It angers me that we are expected to accomodate the every wish of Muslims resident in this country but they will brook no deviation from what they see as being correct.
Live and let live is OK but it should be reciprocal.
I don't know what the kids think but if they are Muslim kids and they've been brought up with Muslim teachings of right and wrong then they might think 40 lashes are appropriate. I don't and I'm sure you don't either, but we might if we'd lived in Khartoum all our lives.
There's a longer story with a bit more detail on the BBC (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7112929.stm).
I meant from the point it was the children who had voted for the name, they are bound to feel a bit confused by it.
:)
On Gmtv this mprning their was a muslim on on who absolutely agreed this was ridiculous and it was just an excuse for a certain faction of people to cause trouble.
We don't name boys here "Jesus", but in Spanish speaking Catholic countries Jesus is a common boy's name, just as Mohammed is in Muslim countries.
I very much doubt that the name Jesus would be given to a teddy bear though! :eek:
I'm really surprised that the teacher apparently didn't realise that naming the bear Mohammed could cause offence. :confused
Sought opinion on this matter today from Muslim friends and colleagues - none of them could understand it, and thought it totally crazy that the woman has been treated like this. As I said earlier Mohammed is a name given to everyone- if you don't know someone's name, you call him Mohammed.
Changing the subject slightly, not sure if anyone remembers an old movie called How Green was my Valley - but there is a scene in the film where the young boy calls his horse Jeehovah, as he thinks it is such a majecstic and fantastic name, when he tells his father, he gets the hiding of his life for taking the Lord's name in vein.
Marriage is a civil contract between a man and a woman. Therefore, Bigamy no more a religious law than murder is. There is no legal requirement to repeal marriage laws, in fact there is greater reason to make it compulsory if anything.
Which one is the woman, Sir Elton or Mrs Sir Elton?
I heard about this on the radio this morning!
I think her naming the teddy Mohammad was a bit silly and you would think she didn't think about it.
But to be given 50 lashes is pretty extreme for a misunderstanding.
Can the UK polititians do anything?
Nobody has been given 50 lashes.
The maximum sentence for a similar crime in Britain is life imprisonment but nobody ever receives it.
Nobody has been given 50 lashes.
The maximum sentence for a similar crime in Britain is life imprisonment but nobody ever receives it.
I'd rather be hit with a taser.
A morality code based on religious beliefs.
It is morality and simple science that forms the basis of many religious practices, not the reverse.
Fundamentalists of any religion are scary, wherever they are.
It is morality and simple science that forms the basis of many religious practices, not the reverse.
A man can co-habit with as many women as he wants to legally but marry only one.
It's a religious law.
A man can co-habit with as many women as he wants to legally but marry only one.
It's a religious law.
Not everywhere.
A man can co-habit with as many women as he wants to legally but marry only one.
It's a religious law.
It is a civil law that he can only marry one and it is only morally acceptable that he co-habits with one woman.
It is a moral law.
back to the teacher being arrested
i dont get it
she didnt do anything wrong, its soo silly for her to be arrested
yet some rapists, paedophiles get off scott free![evil]
back to the teacher being arrested
i dont get it
she didnt do anything wrong, its soo silly for her to be arrested
yet some rapists, paedophiles get off scott free![evil]
......and those who rape and murder in Darfur get off scott free.........there is more to this story than is being told, this unfortunate lady is being used as a political pawn.
I meant from the point it was the children who had voted for the name, they are bound to feel a bit confused by it.
:)Good point, some might be upset because they feel responsible.
I read on the BBC News (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7117430.stm) that she's been charged. I deduce from the various reactions that the issue is now very political. And also very sad, for everyone involved.
......and those who rape and murder in Darfur get off scott free.........there is more to this story than is being told, this unfortunate lady is being used as a political pawn.
We shouldn't need to be told, just look back through the pages of this forum and it should be obvious.
There are those in Sudan who are afraid just as there are people here who are afraid. This isn't about a Teddy Bear, named after Theodore Roosevelt BTW, it's about a fear that they are being invaded, that their traditions and cultures are being eroded and replaced by Western ideals and cultures. I think even the fact that there is a Western teacher teaching Western values to young children scares many in Sudan. They see it as their country being invaded through the back door.
Go back and read the "A German's point of view on Islam" thread and read the sentiments expressed there, how we should build a wall at Dover and only let foreigners who will accept our cultures and values through, see how many here have the same fear of being invaded through the back door that has motivated the arrest and trial of this teacher.
We shouldn't need to be told, just look back through the pages of this forum and it should be obvious.
There are those in Sudan who are afraid just as there are people here who are afraid. This isn't about a Teddy Bear, named after Theodore Roosevelt BTW, it's about a fear that they are being invaded, that their traditions and cultures are being eroded and replaced by Western ideals and cultures. I think even the fact that there is a Western teacher teaching Western values to young children scares many in Sudan. They see it as their country being invaded through the back door.
Go back and read the "A German's point of view on Islam" thread and read the sentiments expressed there, how we should build a wall at Dover and only let foreigners who will accept our cultures and values through, see how many here have the same fear of being invaded through the back door that has motivated the arrest and trial of this teacher.
True, this isn't about a Teddy Bear. It is about paranoid people jumping on any opportunity to stir the pot. The following is taken from The Independent:-
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"An influential and semi-official association of clerics, scholars, and preachers known as the Sudanese Assembly of Ulemas, who are thought to have the ear of the Sudanese government, suggested the incident was part of a broader Western "plot" against Islam that is exemplified "in the writings of renegade Salman Rushdie and the blasphemous caricatures of the Prophet Mohamed."
"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles plotting against Islam," the Ulemas added. "It is part of the campaign of the so-called war against terrorism and the intense media campaign against Islam"."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read that statement and am thankful for the fact that I live in the UK. For all our faults, we at least have a degree of common sense and are tolerant beyond the wildest dreams of those who fear the name of a cuddly toy.
ps I assume the use of the word "scholar" in the article was applied in the loosest possible sense.
danc1ngwitch
29-Nov-07, 15:56
Madness ! why ? she is in a country where islam is the religion and allowed the teddy to be called Mohammed which clearly upset a few of the parents. Its their country, their laws and their religion. She is clearly an educated person and should have known better, yes i agree with her teaching methods and ideas behind what she was trying to achieve but she should have been a bit more thoughtful.
Let's just beat another human being because of a name.
Madness... indeed.:roll:
Her culture is not theirs, i don't think she meant any harm at all.
I think she was keeping the children happy.
I don't think she was dis-respecting anyone. ( but who knows ):roll:
connieb19
29-Nov-07, 16:00
I wonder how she would have been treated if she had refused to call the Teddy Muhammed?
xx_chickie
29-Nov-07, 16:14
I wonder how she would have been treated if she had refused to call the Teddy Muhammed?
Very true, connie! It's ridiculous...people can't do anything right these days.
I wonder how she would have been treated if she had refused to call the Teddy Muhammed?
It could have been worse, she could have called it Gordon.:roll:
Well she has been found guilty on three counts of insulting religion, inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs.
Sentence is 15 days imprisonment.
connieb19
29-Nov-07, 19:39
Well she has been found guilty on three counts of insulting religion, inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs.
Sentence is 15 days imprisonment.And then she'll be deported. :eek:
Still to find a Muslim who think this is anything other than ridiculous, and that includes two Mutawas.
We shouldn't need to be told, just look back through the pages of this forum and it should be obvious.
There are those in Sudan who are afraid just as there are people here who are afraid. This isn't about a Teddy Bear, named after Theodore Roosevelt BTW, it's about a fear that they are being invaded, that their traditions and cultures are being eroded and replaced by Western ideals and cultures. I think even the fact that there is a Western teacher teaching Western values to young children scares many in Sudan. They see it as their country being invaded through the back door.
Go back and read the "A German's point of view on Islam" thread and read the sentiments expressed there, how we should build a wall at Dover and only let foreigners who will accept our cultures and values through, see how many here have the same fear of being invaded through the back door that has motivated the arrest and trial of this teacher.
So the perceived threat to the Sudanese culture is reason to take an innocent teacher, trump up charges agianst her, find her guitly of something she did not do and put her in jail..........aye Fred, I see where you are coming from.
So the perceived threat to the Sudanese culture is reason to take an innocent teacher, trump up charges agianst her, find her guitly of something she did not do and put her in jail..........aye Fred, I see where you are coming from.
No you don't, you don't even know where you are coming from or you would be joining me in arguing against such attitudes when you see them on this board.
When you can see the injustices we commit on others in the same light as the injustices others commit on us then you will see where I'm coming from.
We can breath a sigh of relief that the teacher will be out of jail and home safe and sound in 9 days but the fate of Jahongir Sidikov is still very uncertain.
I know EXACTLY where you are coming from fred - as it appears that you subscribe to the two wrongs make a right brigade.
Penelope Pitstop
30-Nov-07, 12:19
I think it is absolutely ridiculous.
The way I see it is:
She's in their country and must adhere strictly to their culture and traditions...OK that's fair enough. (When she's out there do you think they give a hoot about her culture and traditions.....)
BUT when they come to our country we take account of their culture and traditions....special muslim schools for the kids, etc.....in fact I'd say we bend over backwards....too much so in some ways. If they want to come to our country then they should fit in with OUR culture just as we have to do with theirs when we go out there.
This is my opinion...
I know EXACTLY where you are coming from fred - as it appears that you subscribe to the two wrongs make a right brigade.
Quite the opposite, I just don't turn a blind eye to the wrongs I'd rather not see, I've never said either was right.
Someone spending 15 days in prison through no fault of their own is wrong but it is a relatively small wrong compared to so many which receive no attention whatsoever.
Take a look at this link and see if you can spot the weasel worded hypocrisy of it.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article492638.ece
For once fred, just once - why can't you just stick to the issue we are discussing, look at the facts and informaiton that is presented and give an honest objectice answer.
This woman's actions do not deserve the attention or punishment that she has received. Do you agree?
connieb19
30-Nov-07, 12:47
I think it is absolutely ridiculous.
The way I see it is:
She's in their country and must adhere strictly to their culture and traditions...OK that's fair enough. (When she's out there do you think they give a hoot about her culture and traditions.....)
BUT when they come to our country we take account of their culture and traditions....special muslim schools for the kids, etc.....in fact I'd say we bend over backwards....too much so in some ways. If they want to come to our country then they should fit in with OUR culture just as we have to do with theirs when we go out there.
This is my opinion...Exactly!....
For once fred, just once - why can't you just stick to the issue we are discussing, look at the facts and informaiton that is presented and give an honest objectice answer.
This woman's actions do not deserve the attention or punishment that she has received. Do you agree?
For once just read what I write, I just said it was wrong didn't I?
Now can you explain to me why drug smugglers caught in Ghana suddenly become sweet innocent little girls just because they are British and why someone being deported to face almost certain torture and execution gets no media attention whatsoever just because they aren't.
No you said:
Someone spending 15 days in prison through no fault of their own is wrong but it is a relatively small wrong compared to so many which receive no attention whatsoever.
This could relate to any person, anywhere and not specific to this case - and agian you choose to link it to other unrelated matters.
This could relate to any person, anywhere and not specific to this case - and agian you choose to link it to other unrelated matters.
Precisely, if something is wrong it is wrong as who does it, I don't see right and wrong as a variable depending on who it is.
Now I've joined you in saying that for someone to be held in prison for 15 days through no fault of their own is wrong the next time the government advocates holding people for 90 days without trial will you join me in saying that is wrong or do our fears justify that injustice?
Camel Spider
30-Nov-07, 15:27
I have just seen the News and apparently some Muslims in Sudan are marching and demanding the death of the teacher Gillian Gibbons. Apparently she is a subversive put into Sudan to orchestrate the fall of Islam, and she started this by allowing a classful of children to name a teddy bear after a muslim prophet ?? .. the situation is absoloutely ridiculous.
The Sudanese goverment is just trying to make political capital .. http://www.guardian.co.uk/sudan/story/0,,2068419,00.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/sudan/story/0,,2068419,00.html) .. possibly why ??
If so, not a good move.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7120000/newsid_7121200/7121278.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&ms3=22&ms_javascript=true&bbcws=2 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7120000/newsid_7121200/7121278.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&asb=1&news=1&ms3=22&ms_javascript=true&bbcws=2)
Once again, the "offended" take some time to realise that they are offended. The naming of the bear happened in September!
I find this whole situation absoloutely ridiculous,[disgust] what will the next thing be complains over the teddy's rights :roll:
Demanding death by firing squad for a cultural gaffe? It's a mindset I can't even begin to comprehend.
mums angels
30-Nov-07, 23:17
My daughter got a teddy yesterday for her birthday and we have decided to call it mohammed in protest :) i realise that these people have their beliefs etc but this whole story is just ridiculous and whats worse is that now they are calling for the womans excecution ..whatever is the world coming too .
Is it cultural?
Is it politics?
Yes, it's both. And this poor woman is caught up in the midst of it all. [disgust]
I have a lovely teddy bear, his name is fred. :)
Moi x
I have a lovely teddy bear, his name is fred. :)
Moi x
I bet you never get a straight answer out of him...:lol:
so the poor woman got 15 days in jail and deported, what a relief that must be to her, I bet it will make others think twice about doing that kind of work.
I seriously cant believe all the carry on over a teddy being named Mohammed[disgust] and it wasnt even as if she herself decided thats what it would be called.
I bet if she had said "NO" to calling it Mohammed, she would of been locked up for insulting the name, [disgust]
Demanding death by firing squad for a cultural gaffe? It's a mindset I can't even begin to comprehend.
Try imagining how you would feel if a coalition of Muslim countries had already invaded and occupied two Christian countries and you might start to understand.
Try imagining how you would feel if a coalition of Muslim countries had already invaded and occupied two Christian countries and you might start to understand.
Try imagining the Hundreds of Million of pounds of aid poured in to the Sudan and the neighbouring countries in the recent years Fred, before any coalition went anywhere near Iraq?
Just Remember Live Aid and similar schemes, all run by Christians and the monies came from Christians too, and remember the tonnes of Aid donated by the Governments of our own country and of the US.
Nothing to do with invasion Fred, just greed of the tribal factions in the Sudan.
We shouldn't need to be told, just look back through the pages of this forum and it should be obvious.
There are those in Sudan who are afraid just as there are people here who are afraid. This isn't about a Teddy Bear, named after Theodore Roosevelt BTW, it's about a fear that they are being invaded, that their traditions and cultures are being eroded and replaced by Western ideals and cultures. I think even the fact that there is a Western teacher teaching Western values to young children scares many in Sudan. They see it as their country being invaded through the back door.
Go back and read the "A German's point of view on Islam" thread and read the sentiments expressed there, how we should build a wall at Dover and only let foreigners who will accept our cultures and values through, see how many here have the same fear of being invaded through the back door that has motivated the arrest and trial of this teacher.
That will be the cultures and traditionsthat have allowed the situation in Darfur to occur and permit it to continue.......don't see many people on the streets of Khartoum complaining about that, only us Westen infidels seem to be concerned.......wonder why?
Try imagining the Hundreds of Million pounds of aid poured in to the Sudan and the neighbouring countries in the recent years Fred, before any coalition went anywhere near Iraq?
I've seen the pictures coming out of Sudan, the people there don't look rich to me, I'll bet that heart disease isn't the commonest cause of death there despite the aid and despite the half a million barrels of oil they export a day.
Welcomefamily
01-Dec-07, 15:11
We should stop sending monies there, put it towards better causes, let what ever his name is feed them.
We should stop sending monies there, put it towards better causes, let what ever his name is feed them.
We already did, we haven't provided economic aid to Sudan since 1991 other than humanitarian aid through the aid agencies.
You wouldn't want to see a load of peasant children who can't even read or write starve to death over a Teddy Bear would you?
We already did, we haven't provided economic aid to Sudan since 1991 other than humanitarian aid through the aid agencies.
You wouldn't want to see a load of peasant children who can't even read or write starve to death over a Teddy Bear would you?
You wouldn't want to see a teacher killed over a Teddy bear would you?
They ain't getting help from these either:
'Sudan's support of Iraq in the 1991 Persian Gulf war alienated the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia, sharply curtailing their economic aid to Khartoum. The increasingly close ties between Sudan and Iran in the early 1990s also concerned the Gulf states and Saudi Arabia and was a factor in their diminished financial aid to Khartoum."
Not a Christian in sight!
That will be the cultures and traditionsthat have allowed the situation in Darfur to occur and permit it to continue.......don't see many people on the streets of Khartoum complaining about that, only us Westen infidels seem to be concerned.......wonder why?
Oh I think there are a lot of people in Dafur a lot more concerned than we are.
You wouldn't want to see a teacher killed over a Teddy bear would you?
No I wouldn't, I have never suggested that I would.
Oh I think there are a lot of people in Dafur a lot more concerned than we are.
Khartoum is not in Darfur fred.........nice wee ploy to change tack, but it didn't work. The government in Khartoum (the ones who are responsible for Sudan) have shown little (and I'm being kind there) sympathy for those unfortunates in Darur.......and I see no people campaigning/demonstrating for those Sudanese citizens in Darfur on the streets of Kartoum.
Khartoum is not in Darfur fred.........nice wee ploy to change tack, but it didn't work. The government in Khartoum (the ones who are responsible for Sudan) have shown little (and I'm being kind there) sympathy for those unfortunates in Darur.......and I see no people campaigning/demonstrating for those Sudanese citizens in Darfur on the streets of Kartoum.
Well no, I expect most of the people of Kartoum have as little regard for the lives of children in Darfur as most of the people in Britain have for the lives of children in Iraq and I expect those who are concerned are afraid to speak up for fear of being ostracised and branded a terrorist sympathiser.
Well no, I expect most of the people of Kartoum have as little regard for the lives of children in Darfur as most of the people in Britain have for the lives of children in Iraq and I expect those who are concerned are afraid to speak up for fear of being ostracised and branded a terrorist sympathiser.
But can you tell me WHY fred? In this "Muslim" country that fears "invasion", and wants to protect its "culture" and "tradition".
But can you tell me WHY fred? In this "Muslim" country that fears "invasion", and wants to protect its "culture" and "tradition".
Same reason as here. Just as in the back of everyone's minds hides the fact that we are addicted to Middle Eastern to oil and our high standards of living the people in Sudan know that there are too many people and not enough food and water. The Arab population will refuse to see the atrocities committed against the African population and the African population will refuse to see the atrocities committed against the Arab population, they will find excuses, they will blame someone else, they will blame the victims.
As global warming progresses and famine spreads the problems will get worse.
Fred: "for the lives of children in Iraq"
What's that got to do with 'Teacher Arrested'?
Fred: "for the lives of children in Iraq"
What's that got to do with 'Teacher Arrested'?
If you had posted the entire message it would have been obvious but then I suppose people are more interested in finding someone to blame than understanding why.
That was the case in July when I posted this message:
http://forum.caithness.org/showpost.php?p=238156&postcount=13
Since then Sami al-Hajj's, who is Sudanese by the way, health has deteriorated, he's been on hunger strike for over a year and his kidneys are failing.
Still never mind, only another 8 days and we get our teacher back safe and sound, all being well.
Camel Spider
01-Dec-07, 21:53
If you had posted the entire message it would have been obvious but then I suppose people are more interested in finding someone to blame than understanding why.
That was the case in July when I posted this message:
http://forum.caithness.org/showpost.php?p=238156&postcount=13 (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/showpost.php?p=238156&postcount=13)
Since then Sami al-Hajj's, who is Sudanese by the way, health has deteriorated, he's been on hunger strike for over a year and his kidneys are failing.
Still never mind, only another 8 days and we get our teacher back safe and sound, all being well.
Well maybe if he came off hunger strike and had something to eat he might feel better .. ;)
Back on topic .. the Sudanese Goverment are just playing political games. Muslims everywhere have condemned this and I believe some British muslims are in Sudan at the moment working on Gillian Gibbons release. Anyone with half a brain cell can see that the whole situation has been blown out of proportion to fit the agenda of a Goverment that is trying to boost its status in the world.
northener
01-Dec-07, 22:27
Same reason as here. Just as in the back of everyone's minds hides the fact that we are addicted to Middle Eastern to oil and our high standards of living the people in Sudan know that there are too many people and not enough food and water. The Arab population will refuse to see the atrocities committed against the African population and the African population will refuse to see the atrocities committed against the Arab population, they will find excuses, they will blame someone else, they will blame the victims.
As global warming progresses and famine spreads the problems will get worse.
Good comment, Fred.
Would it be fair to say that this whole situation has been hijacked by extremist elements and is being used as a ploy to divert attention away from the countries' plight and to rally people to the extremist cause?
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"Still never mind, only another 8 days and we get our teacher back safe and sound, all being well."
Pleased you care Fred!
Good comment, Fred.
Would it be fair to say that this whole situation has been hijacked by extremist elements and is being used as a ploy to divert attention away from the countries' plight and to rally people to the extremist cause?
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That's about the size of it.
But to be fair the Sudanese are just as bad.
Welcomefamily
01-Dec-07, 23:43
Well maybe if he came off hunger strike and had something to eat he might feel better .. ;)
Back on topic .. the Sudanese Goverment are just playing political games. Muslims everywhere have condemned this and I believe some British muslims are in Sudan at the moment working on Gillian Gibbons release. Anyone with half a brain cell can see that the whole situation has been blown out of proportion to fit the agenda of a Goverment that is trying to boost its status in the world.
I totally agree, its certainly has not done the muslim community any good at all, if I am finding it hard not to generalise about Muslims, I would imagine there a lot of people out there getting very worked up over it.
I bet you never get a straight answer out of him...:lol:Now that you mention it...
I give him lots of hugs, I share my innermost thoughts with him, and I ask him simple questions about life, the universe and everything but he hasn't come up with a straight answer yet. :(
Back on topic...
This row isn't doing anyone any good. It deepens the prejudice of British muslim haters and it can't be doing Sudan's international relations much good either.
Can't we bribe the Sudanese with Tesco vouchers or the real fred or something else they don't have over there? How about an anonymous donation (aka a bribe) via a third party? Our party of government is evidently very experienced in these matters.
Moi x
I see the teacher is to be freed later on today after recieving a pardon from the President of Sudan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7124447.stm
northener
03-Dec-07, 11:14
I see the teacher is to be freed later on today after recieving a pardon from the President of Sudan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7124447.stm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7124447.stm)
Nice to see that even though in this country we don't take to the streets furiously demanding death sentances be dished out to all and sundry, we can still reach a conclusion that satisfies us.
She was found guilty (rightly or wrongly), under the laws of their country she was sentanced and through diplomacy a pardon was granted. No loss of face, no sabre rattling, no bloodshed on either side.
.
Nice to see that even though in this country we don't take to the streets furiously demanding death sentances be dished out to all and sundry, we can still reach a conclusion that satisfies us.
.
Have you considered the possibility that what translates to the words "death to" in English doesn't actually mean "kill" to the Sudanese?
It's just a generic chant like "down with" is here, they use it for anything they don't like.
northener
03-Dec-07, 12:42
Have you considered the possibility that what translates to the words "death to" in English doesn't actually mean "kill" to the Sudanese?
It's just a generic chant like "down with" is here, they use it for anything they don't like.
Can't say I had, Fred.
I know that people say a lot of things when they believe passionately in something.
But I believe that some factions were calling for a firing squad - which would be pretty terminal, I would think!
I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush, but the level of protest against a relatively minor incident would suggest orchestration at a fairly senior level - either inside or outside the Religious/Government leaders control.
I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush, but the level of protest against a relatively minor incident would suggest orchestration at a fairly senior level - either inside or outside the Religious/Government leaders control.
The subject seems to have received a lot of attention in this country too, if it's only a minor incident how come it's been splashed across all the front pages?
Have you considered the possibility that what translates to the words "death to" in English doesn't actually mean "kill" to the Sudanese?
It's just a generic chant like "down with" is here, they use it for anything they don't like.
Oh, of course that's what it meant. I always like to wave a huge machete when I am shouting "down with taxes" as well!!
northener
03-Dec-07, 13:46
The subject seems to have received a lot of attention in this country too, if it's only a minor incident how come it's been splashed across all the front pages?
Because we cannot understand how such a relatively minor incident (in our eyes) could create such a harsh reaction. As British citizens, we are used to freedom of speech and the ability to question everything.
When a westerner makes a relatively minor gaffe in the eyes of Islam, we would expect an admonishment. Unfortunately we view other cultures as we view our own. - Completely wrong thing to do.
If it was say, a French teacher involved in this, it wouldn't have headlined as much as it wouldn't have created as much interest in this country. Media outlets can only survive if they play to the public and tap into the 'wavelength' of the people.
Anything that portrays Islam in a bad light is 'good news' to the media - they know it will spark a huge reaction. Twenty years ago it probably wouldn't get a mention more than once as Islam was not percieved as a threat then.
What a wonderful world we live in.
.
Well no, I expect most of the people of Kartoum have as little regard for the lives of children in Darfur as most of the people in Britain have for the lives of children in Iraq and I expect those who are concerned are afraid to speak up for fear of being ostracised and branded a terrorist sympathiser.Let's not forget the rwandan genocide and the fact that the west couldn't give a damn how many tutsi or hutu were slaughtered, there was no way they were going to interfere, as a news reporter said in the movie hotel rwanda, "I think if people see this footage, they'll say Oh, my God, that's horrible. And then they'll go on eating their dinners".
Have you considered the possibility that what translates to the words "death to" in English doesn't actually mean "kill" to the Sudanese?
It's just a generic chant like "down with" is here, they use it for anything they don't like.
Yep... and 'Black & Decker their skulls' doesn't really mean drill a few holes to let some sanity in. It is good to see the Sudanese govt have seen sense. What is it with hot countries and mob hysteria?:confused
I was interested to hear this line from one of the British Muslim envoys in the Sudanese bear incident.
"All religions are respected in Britain"
Let's not forget the rwandan genocide and the fact that the west couldn't give a damn how many tutsi or hutu were slaughtered, there was no way they were going to interfere, as a news reporter said in the movie hotel rwanda, "I think if people see this footage, they'll say Oh, my God, that's horrible. And then they'll go on eating their dinners".
Or that while we are condemning what is happening in Darfur as genocide there are between 10 and 20 times as many people being killed in the Congo unnoticed.
But then the Congo isn't floating on a sea of largely untapped oil so we wouldn't want to go marching into there...for humanitarian reasons of course...now would we.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/congo.html
Because we cannot understand how such a relatively minor incident (in our eyes) could create such a harsh reaction. As British citizens, we are used to freedom of speech and the ability to question everything.
Then why are we not questioning why Sudanese national Sami al-Hajj has been held without trial at Guantanamo for over six years?
The ordinary people of Sudan must be wondering what sort of hypocrites we are.
From the Daily Telegraph of 8th August 2007:
The first tangible outcome of this change of posture emerged yesterday with the Government's formal request for the release of five British residents from the American detention camp at Guantánamo Bay. It was disingenuous of the Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, to depict the request as simply a helping hand to the Americans as they "move towards the closure of the detention facility". In reality, it is a highly symbolic political gesture designed to show the Brown Government's distaste for Guantánamo. The five are not British citizens, and there is no obligation for us to take them.
Sami al-Hajj ? he is hardly a good ambassador for Sudan is he ?
Sami al-Hajj ? he is hardly a good ambassador for Sudan is he ?
I think the point is Solus, if the USA have evidence then they should bring charges against him - if not they have no right in detaining him. It is wrong.
Glad to see she was released. All she was doing was teaching the kids to look after and care for all of gods creatures.
The press did jump on it though but that can be a good thing as it has brought darfur back into the limelight.
She was basically a pawn being used by both sides in trying to score points.
Common sense prevailed in the end though,thankfully!
From the Daily Telegraph of 8th August 2007:
So being held without trial for 6 years gets you a paragraph in the Telegraph and being convicted by a court and spending a few days in jail gets your name on the front page of every newspaper in Britain.
Sami al-Hajj ? he is hardly a good ambassador for Sudan is he ?
In Sudan he is a national hero.
Which crime are you saying he has committed?
I'm glad the teacher is on her way home.
Now let's join our politicians and put some effort into sorting out other injustices. Guantanamo Bay is a good place to start. It's a disgrace to our liberal society and I find it incredible that most European politicians don't speak out more strongly about it. Do we have to continue to appease the Bush administration? Charge its inmates or let them go! And close down the Godforsaken place!
Moi x
Not for me to say he commited any crime but he certainly has a lot of explaining to do !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_Al_Hajj
I'm glad the teacher is on her way home.
Now let's join our politicians and put some effort into sorting out other injustices. Guantanamo Bay is a good place to start. It's a disgrace to our liberal society and I find it incredible that most European politicians don't speak out more strongly about it. Do we have to continue to appease the Bush administration? Charge its inmates or let them go. And close down the Godforsaken place!
Absolutely ..but I am not sure it will be a case of us joining our politicians rather than dragging them traipsing and procrastinating behind us.:(
Karia
Too true karia. Our politicians managed to get the teacher out of Sudan with great speed yet they're still mumbling and bumbling and making lame excuses about Guantanamo.
karia x
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/congo.html
I said largely untapped oil, as your link shows the Congo is past peak and as your link shows western oil companies are already in there. Investment in Sudanese oil fields is coming from China, Sudan is China's largest supplier of oil.
Not for me to say he commited any crime but he certainly has a lot of explaining to do !
No he doesn't, all I see there are allegations, the only thing we know for sure is that he was kidnapped and has been physically and mentally abused for the last six years.
It's the American government that has a lot of explaining to do.
So being held without trial for 6 years gets you a paragraph in the Telegraph and being convicted by a court and spending a few days in jail gets your name on the front page of every newspaper in Britain.
Ahh twisting the facts again fred, I have seen many column inches devoted to Guantanamo.............as you have.
I said largely untapped oil, as your link shows the Congo is past peak and as your link shows western oil companies are already in there. Investment in Sudanese oil fields is coming from China, Sudan is China's largest supplier of oil.
Oh no it isn't. (not by a long way)
However China is the largest supplier of arms to Sudan...........wonder why you never mentioned that.
Oh no it isn't. (not by a long way)
However China is the largest supplier of arms to Sudan...........wonder why you never mentioned that.
As I have said many times before, it doesn't take much digging to debunk the fantasies.;) You beat me to it.
Oh no it isn't. (not by a long way)
I'll not argue with you, after a search I've found various figures published at various times ranging from first to sixth, it makes no difference to my argument, Sudan is still a large supplier of oil to China and China is still by far the largest investor in Sudanese oil.
However China is the largest supplier of arms to Sudan...........wonder why you never mentioned that.
How would that be relevant to why Darfur gets so much attention but the Congo doesn't?
As I have said many times before, it doesn't take much digging to debunk the fantasies.;) You beat me to it.
Did you have anything positive to add to this discussion?
Ahh twisting the facts again fred, I have seen many column inches devoted to Guantanamo.............as you have.
I'm not twisting anything, the media attention devoted to one teacher tried legally, treated humanely and released in days is massively disproportionate to the media attention given to hundreds of people kidnapped from around the world, held without trial for years and tortured.
Did you have anything positive to add to this discussion?
Only to say that I agree with Scotsboy that you were wrong again.
Only to say that I agree with Scotsboy that you were wrong again.
You mean it was just part of the cliques attempts to discredit me?
You mean it was just part of the cliques attempts to discredit me?
Do you think proving someone is wrong is a good way of discrediting them?
I'll not argue with you, after a search I've found various figures published at various times ranging from first to sixth, it makes no difference to my argument, Sudan is still a large supplier of oil to China and China is still by far the largest investor in Sudanese oil.
How would that be relevant to why Darfur gets so much attention but the Congo doesn't?
Eh the thread was about a Teacher being found guilty of insulting islam in Sudan Darfur is in Sudan (the Congo isn't) - however the Chinese are offering arms for oil in the Congo as well.
Do you think proving someone is wrong is a good way of discrediting them?
Sorry, I didn't see you post any proof of anything.
As far as I'm concerned it all depends on who you believe and as it makes no difference to my argument whatsoever I don't want to get into an argument with scotsboy over it.
Now if you don't mind I find my discussions with scotsboy interesting do you think the clique could refrain from disrupting them with their ad homine attacks.
What is very interesting about Darfur is that the majority of Islamic countries are not rallying agaisnt the slaughter and rape of "black" Muslims in the area by mainly "Arab" Muslims.
The Sudanese Government are also putting a lot of obstacles in the way of the required Peace keeping forces.
Now if you don't mind I find my discussions with scotsboy interesting do you think the clique could refrain from disrupting them with their ad homine attacks.
I'm certainly not in any clique, but thanks for the ad hominem remark. If you keep posting fantasy facts then you should accept they will be debunked. If you don't accept the debunking then you are living in a fantasy world.
Eh the thread was about a Teacher being found guilty of insulting islam in Sudan Darfur is in Sudan (the Congo isn't) - however the Chinese are offering arms for oil in the Congo as well.
Yes and we have been talking about media attention on Darfur and what motivates it, if it were merely humanitarian concerns then the Congo would be getting greater attention.
The Chinese aren't the only country in the world to supply arms to other countries and they are supplying them to the government. Britain sells a lot of arms around the world as do America and France, it was Israel who first armed the rebels in Darfur. I don't see what point you are trying to make.
Yes and we have been talking about media attention on Darfur and what motivates it, if it were merely humanitarian concerns then the Congo would be getting greater attention.
The Chinese aren't the only country in the world to supply arms to other countries and they are supplying them to the government. Britain sells a lot of arms around the world as do America and France, it was Israel who first armed the rebels in Darfur. I don't see what point you are trying to make.
I think if either Britain or the USA were offering arms for oil in Darfur, then it may be slightly higher up your agenda fred;)
I think if either Britain or the USA were offering arms for oil in Darfur, then it may be slightly higher up your agenda fred;)
China isn't supplying arms to Darfur, they are supplying arms to the Sudanese government just as the Americans have just agreed a $20 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia and just as America supplies the Israeli government with arms.
Arms for oil is how it works, that is how the deal the Americans are about to sign with Iraq works, if it were individual people doing it not governments it would be what is known as a protection racket. It isn't right I'm not saying it is I'm just saying you can't condemn the Chinese for doing it while condoning the Americans, British, French and Israelis doing it.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j5-NoUxmBcNx2e2-L93XgSUIQ1gQ
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/11/africa/AF-GEN-Sudan-Rebel-Attack.php
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