Chiefs of Staff shout enough.

[Kenn]

I am intersted to hear what folk up north think of the attack on the government by The ex Chiefs of Staff.
As a country Scotland has a higher percentage of men serving in the armed forces than any other part of the UK.
I am an interested party as until recently I had memebers of the family serving in the armed forces and if the tales they have to tell are 50% true then I am ashamed of the treatment that our servicemen and women are recieving.

[rob murray]

I am intersted to hear what folk up north think of the attack on the government by The ex Chiefs of Staff.
As a country Scotland has a higher percentage of men serving in the armed forces than any other part of the UK.
I am an interested party as until recently I had memebers of the family serving in the armed forces and if the tales they have to tell are 50% true then I am ashamed of the treatment that our servicemen and women are recieving.

The attack was aimed at Gordon Brown and its timing comming so soon after the data loss debacle indicates that it is politically motivated. Brown would claim that in real terms forces budgets now are higher than at any point since the 1980's, but this of course assumes that they are adequate and meet new increased demands. Clearly the view from the coal face is that they are not and I believe the guys on the ground. There is nothing new here as the UK have always starved the armed forces of funding and despite the shouting the tories or anyone else won't do any better, in historical they never have.

[Camel Spider]

I am intersted to hear what folk up north think of the attack on the government by The ex Chiefs of Staff.
As a country Scotland has a higher percentage of men serving in the armed forces than any other part of the UK.
I am an interested party as until recently I had memebers of the family serving in the armed forces and if the tales they have to tell are 50% true then I am ashamed of the treatment that our servicemen and women are recieving.

Its about time someone spoke up for the rank and file isnt it ??, its appalling that when the Falklands War was fought we spent 4% of our Gross National Product on Defence, now its 2% .. not nearly enough. Labour just dont give a hoot about the militairy though, does anyone remember Tony Bliar saying the troops could have anything they wanted ?? .. :roll:, the British Forces have always punched above their weight but now they are fighting to stand in the ring. The services are undermanned as people leave in droves becuase the wages and and accomodation are rubbish, the time off and perks are vanishing, the equipment is old and the replacements are well overdue, take the new Nimrod for example. The troops dont have the essential equipment available and are having to buy their own in some cases. Bottom line is the Goverment simply doesnt care does it ??, for example the French have 26 dedicated Militairy Hospitals .. we have none .. ZERO .. an absolute disgrace with the amount of wounded we are caring for.

Unfortunately the British Public seem to be apathetic about it all. Look at the thread recently on here about the Support our Soldiers campaign .. it sank without a trace. That just seems to be symptomatic of public opinion these days where people cant seem to differentiate between the Service's and the Politics of current operations. The treatment of Servicemen and Women in America compared to the UK is a gaping chasm that we should be embarrased about, In the states I have seen people give up their seat to a person in uniform and openly appluad them at the airport when they return. In this country Forces charities have to raise money to build a deicated centre for the rehabilitaion of the wounded. There is something seriously wrong with the Militairy Covenant and this country in my view. Isnt it funny how the Goverment cant equip our troops properly but at the drop of a hat they can find Billions to bail out Northern Rock ??

All we need now is for the current Chief's to get some spine, risk those pensions, gratuities and perks and do what they are paid to do .. Back up the Men and Women they are responsible for. General Dannant has already done so to be fair but the current CDS needs to lead the charge .. and soon. This Goverment has decimated all three Services and it needs to stop.

[Bobbyian]

Is´nt it amazing how pathetic the majority of the British Public are. They just don´t recognise what our Forces have to undergo to carry out these tasks. they are all shouting about the so call leaders that decided these things but are totally oblivious to the poor souls that have to handle the situation. I add that we are volountarly there but that doesn`t mean we agree with everyting that is or was decided. and the public should put more pressure on the MPs to help the forces with the best possible means to do what they must do to carry out what the Governmemt has Decided. but then again things haven`t changed much in 400years they didn`t really care then either.

[fred]

The attack was aimed at Gordon Brown and its timing comming so soon after the data loss debacle indicates that it is politically motivated. Brown would claim that in real terms forces budgets now are higher than at any point since the 1980's, but this of course assumes that they are adequate and meet new increased demands. Clearly the view from the coal face is that they are not and I believe the guys on the ground. There is nothing new here as the UK have always starved the armed forces of funding and despite the shouting the tories or anyone else won't do any better, in historical they never have.

Yeh, there just isn't enough money available.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2214477,00.html

[golach]

If you want to see a proper Leader of men, watch a programme on BBC 2 at 8pm on Monday night 26th Nov, "Mad Mitch and the last battle of the British Empire."
Now he did things his way and his Troops loved him for it, I know because my brother served with him in Aden.
He cared about his men.

[Tristan]

If troops are going to go off and fight they deserve the best! Shame on anyone who denies them that!

[Camel Spider]

If you want to see a proper Leader of men, watch a programme on BBC 2 at 8pm on Monday night 26th Nov, "Mad Mitch and the last battle of the British Empire."
Now he did things his way and his Troops loved him for it, I know because my brother served with him in Aden.
He cared about his men.

Have read about him Golach and I agree .. a truly great leader.

I had a boss in that vein once. After a party at which us mortals, Junior and Senior NCO's and Officers were present complaints were made by some civvies who were not pleased at the drinking games that went on. The Boss got pulled up in the morning for an "interview without Coffee" with the Colonel. On his return all ranks were called together and the Boss said he was asked to make the situation clear to everyone.

He then pulled out a pocket tape recorder on which he had recorded the bollocking from the Colonel, put it on the table, pressed play and stood with us at attention while we listened to the dressing down together, he said as he was as guilty as the rest of us it would be hypocritical for him to do anything else .. He was truly a class act.

[northener]

Our Armed Forces would be better off working in a bank. Say, Northern Rock.

First sign of trouble and the Government will throw billions at you to keep you afloat.

Pity they can't see any further than fiscal policy......

Then again, as was pointed out to me many years ago, it's the politicians who start wars and the accountants who finish them.
Poor old Tommy Atkins is just a statistic as far as they are concerned.

[Cattach]

I am intersted to hear what folk up north think of the attack on the government by The ex Chiefs of Staff.
As a country Scotland has a higher percentage of men serving in the armed forces than any other part of the UK.
I am an interested party as until recently I had memebers of the family serving in the armed forces and if the tales they have to tell are 50% true then I am ashamed of the treatment that our servicemen and women are recieving.

Easy to throw insults at your former employers once you have retired on a full and generous pension and gone up to the House of Lords. They were happy to take their big salaries for years and not take any moral stance until they were in the clear and comfortable.

[northener]

Easy to throw insults at your former employers once you have retired on a full and generous pension and gone up to the House of Lords. They were happy to take their big salaries for years and not take any moral stance until they were in the clear and comfortable.

Fair comment Cattach, but the senior military try to avoid 'going public' as much as possible. They see themselves a professional soldiers that unfortunately have to deal with politicians and the Civil Service whilst remaining 100% military.

Complaining in public is viewed by the military as tantamount to admitting defeat and only really happens when they are absolutely exasperated. - Which should say a lot about how serious the situation is.

[Camel Spider]

The Forces were always the bottom of the list for cash under Labour, they are socialists after all and see the Forces as a waste of Money. Brown did everything he could to drop the funding when he was Chancellor and his claims that we have seen a rise year on year is just a plain old lie.

When he was Chancellor the Service Chiefs could always appeal to Blair but that route is gone now. Gordon Brown's decision to make the Defence Secretary's job a part time one by combining it with the Scottish Secretary post speaks volumes on his opinion of the Services, he can find £40 Billion at the drop of a hat to prop up Northern Rock and buy a few votes but seems quite happy to send guys and girls in harms way with inferior equipment and not enough of it. Then stands on the News and tells Porkies about it. The NHS and Education dont seem to have any problem getting cash from him but its a different case when it comes down to the troops. But it seems that there is a bit of momentum developing and maybe the British Public will start to give a hoot at last.

The Defence Secretary is now openly referred to as "Swiss Des" by Service Personnel after the Swiss Tony character from the Fast Show .. says it all really.

[MadPict]

Shame they didn't speak up when they were in office......

[Camel Spider]

Shame they didn't speak up when they were in office......

Maybe they did, not that Liarbour listen anyway. I agree though that the current chiefs need to speak up more and do what they are paid for, I posted that previously. I would imagine the current chiefs would have been told what was going to be said, too sensitive an issue for them not to know. The problem is that the Militairy is there to preserve Democracy .. not practice it. Its not like they can walk up to Gordon Brown and tell him the way its going to be, public opinion is the one thing that Politicians are truly scared of and until that swings with enough momentum to convince old Gordy that he needs to stump up the cash then it aint going to change.

I mean we are in the situation of the Typhoon Fighter being deployed to Afghanistan next year for the first time in the Close Air Support role. It has a 27mm cannon for strafing runs but the Goverment has bought no ammunition for it as a cost saving measure. They even wanted the gun removed but the cost of re -writing the flight control software to compensate for the removal of the gun was horrendous. What are the Pilots supposed to do in situations where dropping a bomb isnt an option ?? .. use bad langauge ?? .. hand gestures ??

Come the coup we are going to need a big wall .. ;)

[Welcomefamily]

The demands are much greater on the services over the last few years, the cuts the army are making like getting rid of the gap year scheme for officers and the various University funding scheme which have all been reduce, will in turn reduce the amount of people going in.
This could have an impact three or four years time, we should just bring them home and the government should just admit its made another massive mistake sending troops they cant support to War.
At least when the Iron Maiden sent the troop to the Faulklands she was totally behind them and showed huge amounts of support for them. Brown appears to be as much use as the second shoe to a person with one leg. (It saves me getting a warning for what I would like to write)
With one son in the forces and a second one going to start his selection process next March, I am a bit one sided but those out there are giving in some case every thing.

[golach]

At least when the Iron Maiden sent the troop to the Faulklands she was totally behind them and showed huge amounts of support for them..

Welcomefamily, Maggie had just dished out redundancy notices to hundreds of Officers and Senior Rates in the RN, when suddenly she needed ships and men to make her become the Iron Maiden, how many of those sailors went to the Falklands with their redundancy notices in their pockets, and never returned to collect them?

[Moi x]

Brown did everything he could to drop the funding when he was Chancellor and his claims that we have seen a rise year on year is just a plain old lie.Can you substantiate this claim quantitatively?

The BBC seemed lost in a recent news report. They showed a plot of defence spending in pounds against time and this showed a nominal huge increase in spending, but it wasn't useful because it didn't account for inflation. Then they showed a plot of defence spending as a percentage of GDP against time and this dropped from 4.<something>% to 2.<something-else>% over the same period. At this point they threw up their hands. There were some mutterings about defence inflation being higher than ordinary inflation but nothing substantial followed. It didn't engender confidence in their analysis.

Moi x

[northener]

I seem to recall a comment recently that in real terms, defence spending is lower than what it was in the early 1930's.

In other words, when Britain was farting about with outdated kit whilst our Teutonic cousins were arming and training.

Always the same, cuts, cuts, cuts and then 'our brave boys' rhetoric.

[Camel Spider]

Can you substantiate this claim quantitatively?

The BBC seemed lost in a recent news report. They showed a plot of defence spending in pounds against time and this showed a nominal huge increase in spending, but it wasn't useful because it didn't account for inflation. Then they showed a plot of defence spending as a percentage of GDP against time and this dropped from 4.<something>% to 2.<something-else>% over the same period. At this point they threw up their hands. There were some mutterings about defence inflation being higher than ordinary inflation but nothing substantial followed. It didn't engender confidence in their analysis.

Moi x

I agree. I did a bit of research and found the Spiri Institiute, as they are Swedish I figured they would be impartial. Have a look here .. http://first.sipri.org/non_first/milex.php (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://first.sipri.org/non_first/milex.php) .. at first glance it seems to back up Gordon Brown as the actual figures are rising. However the Defence percenatge of the GDP is falling. So as the economy grows we are spending less and less of that on Defence. At a time when we are fighting on two fronts why is that ??, why are we cutting back at the time when our Forces are fighting on two fronts ??, I mean Brown can find £40 Billion for Northern Rock at the drop of a hat but cant seem to find the cash to properly equip the very troops he is happy to send off to fight.

Defence Spending as a percentage of GDP .. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html) .. we rank number 70 in the world.

The Bottom line for me is that the Militairy Covenant has been well and truly broken. The sevices are undermanned, under -equipped and at breaking strain which is why these ex chiefs spoke out. The only thing that will force the goverment to change is public opinion and the fear they will lose votes. However the public seem to care more about X factor than those dying In Iraq and Afghanistan, here is an example .. http://icsurreyonline.icnetwork.co.uk/leatherheadadvertiser/localheadlines/tm_headline=swimmers-throw-abuse-at-injured-servicemen-in-pool%26method=full%26objectid=20146160%26siteid=50 101-name_page.html

However it is not all Doom and Gloom .. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=WADC4CC5XFTZPQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2007/11/23/wuganda223.xml (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=WADC4CC5XFTZPQFIQMFCFGGAVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2007/11/23/wuganda223.xml) .. if the Forces have to "compete" for funds I am pretty sure the boys have the other Departments outgunned !! .. ;)