View Full Version : new orleans and surrounding areas
just wondering if everyone has been keeping up with this horror story come to life!
i never in all my life thought that help would be so slow in coming..
i dont even know where to begin!
even when the tsunami hit they started gathering the dead right away! here we are on day 5 and they are just begining to get mobile morgs in!
im most upset because this was unecessary..
when there is a mandatory evac.. thats just it it is madatory and everyone has to leave
they are suppose to send in the national guard or army and help move the people that can not be moved or cant get out because of finalcial reasons.. they had a week to evac. but yet 10's of thousands of people were left in the city.. 30,000 alone in the dome..
im american and like the rest of my country men are discusted with how things were done..
i can not imagine what those poor people are going thru.. now they have a urban war going on around them as well!
was wondering about doing a charity collection but no idea how to go about it.. any ideas?
was so touched to see that sri lanka donated 25.000 even though they couldnt afford it! god bless them !!
honestjohn
02-Sep-05, 23:11
What country in the right mind builds a city below sea level any way? Only America can think of doing something like that. It was an accident waiting to happen. It is very, very sad what has happened. But does America not realise that TIMBER framed house do not withstand hurricanes?
there are many citys across the world built below sea level actually... and new orleans is a very old city as well.. and was made long before moden tech.. that would have told them the prob of flooding
George Brims
02-Sep-05, 23:58
It wasn't below sea level when they built it - it has sunk. Also the sea level is rising. A bigger problem is that making ship canals through the delta and building levees to protect particular areas of land has increased erosion of the Misssissippi delta. Rather than growing as deltas undisturbed by human activity do, it is shrinking fast. Miles and miles of swamp that would have absorbed and held back the storm surge are gone. Also funding to shore up the levees was cut to support the war in Iraq.
Now honestjohn, have you never heard of a wee place called Holland? Most of it used to be sea floor before it was reclaimed. It's not just America that builds below sea level (just as it's not just America that elects grinning buffoons to positions of responsibility).
It wasn't below sea level when they built it - it has sunk. Also the sea level is rising. A bigger problem is that making ship canals through the delta and building levees to protect particular areas of land has increased erosion of the Misssissippi delta. Rather than growing as deltas undisturbed by human activity do, it is shrinking fast. Miles and miles of swamp that would have absorbed and held back the storm surge are gone. Also funding to shore up the levees was cut to support the war in Iraq.
Now honestjohn, have you never heard of a wee place called Holland? Most of it used to be sea floor before it was reclaimed. It's not just America that builds below sea level (just as it's not just America that elects grinning buffoons to positions of responsibility).
George Brims came through on this one. He has his act together telling it the way it is. Thank you George for putting the truth together.
just wondering if everyone has been keeping up with this horror story come to life!
Do you not think there was an angel riding in the whirlwind and directing that storm?
fred what does your post mean? would you mind specifying what sort of angel and for what purpose? are you saying the storm was an act of God?
that those poor people deserved it?
I did hear that Sri Lanka had donated £25000 for the relief effort. How humbling and generous is that? Bless 'em, after all they have been through as well...
i know Rheghead that is something isnt it?! makes you think that if they can do it so can we!
Margaret M.
03-Sep-05, 13:37
My heart goes out to the poor souls on the Gulf Coast. The state and federal government's response, or lack thereof, to this tragedy blows my mind. So much for Homeland Security -- this was a disaster they knew could happen any time and they've had YEARS to plan for it. There is no excuse for so many of the deaths and the absolute chaos that has resulted. If reporters can get in to the worst hit neighborhoods why on earth can't relief/rescue workers? The Superdome set up as a shelter with no planning done for the obvious necessities like ample trash cans and porta potties. The more I watch the more disgusted I become. I shudder to think what will happen when an unexpected disaster comes our way.
That said a huge thank you to the Coast Guard and rescue workers who have been there all week working around the clock rescuing people from roofs, attics, etc.
I cannot fathom why the Army Corps of Engineers felt OK building levees to withstand a level 3 hurricane knowing full well a 4 or 5 could hit at any time. Surely they factored the cost of the resulting devastation from a 4 or 5 into their cost/benefit analysis.
I think Hollywood should create Disaster Recovery Plans for every state/city. In my opinion, they could do a much better job than the Washington fat cats who I am starting to believe put little value on any life other than their own.
Fred, what on earth do you mean by your remark???? I certainly hope I am misinterpreting it -- surely not even you could make such an atrocious statement.
just wondering if everyone has been keeping up with this horror story come to life!
Do you not think there was an angel riding in the whirlwind and directing that storm?
I think there is more chance that it might have been guided by the collective will of bitter and twisted aerosols worldwide. You know the kind of people , they hide behind anonymous Ids on the internet because they know that, made in public, their comments would result in a trip to the nearest A&E Department.
Just like Iraq, or anywhere else, the USA has loads of poorly educated people who live in poverty. These people can do next to nothing about the fact that big business effectively runs the country. In their current plight they deserve every bit as much consideration as any other human beings in dire need.
I don't know about Angels but you are certainly away with the Fairies!!
The whole purpose of a delta, is that it will flood and the river mouth will move position.
If peolpe dam deltas and provide an un-natural river path, it is hardly surprising when a natural disaster occurs mother nature will win.
The present path of the mississppi river is a man made one, so when a levee is breached the delta will revert back to its natural state.
If you build a house on a river's flood plane, what do you expect, its called a flood plane for a reason. It might only flood every 1000 years but if thats the week you move house then tough I guess.
Don't get me wrong what is happening is terrible, and I feel very sorry for all the people caught up in this disaster. But the Goverment have been well aware of this for many years.
fred what does your post mean? would you mind specifying what sort of angel and for what purpose? are you saying the storm was an act of God?
that those poor people deserved it?
Ah, you don't remember the Bush Inaugrural Address of Jan 2001.
Immediately after the huricane there were offers of help, Paul Martin in Canada offered troops, equipment, supplies, as much as was needed for as long as was needed. Same with the UN, they have people trained to deal with disasters like this one, they have the expertise and they have the equipment to save lives, a lot of lives.
Can you think of any reason why these offers of help were turned down?
[quote=brandy]fred what does your post mean? would you mind specifying what sort of angel and for what purpose? are you saying the storm was an act of God?
that those poor people deserved it?
Ah, you don't remember the Bush Inaugrural Address of Jan 2001.
Immediately after the huricane there were offers of help, Paul Martin in Canada offered troops, equipment, supplies, as much as was needed for as long as was needed. Same with the UN, they have people trained to deal with disasters like this one, they have the expertise and they have the equipment to save lives, a lot of lives.
Can you think of any reason why these offers of help were turned down?
[/quote
Good old Freddy, a specific question asked that is totally ignored in the reply. Please answer the question so that we all know where you are coming from (other than the heart of your bottom)
fred what does your post mean? would you mind specifying what sort of angel and for what purpose? are you saying the storm was an act of God?
that those poor people deserved it?
Ah, you don't remember the Bush Inaugrural Address of Jan 2001.
Good old Freddy, a specific question asked that is totally ignored in the reply. Please answer the question so that we all know where you are coming from (other than the heart of your bottom)
I didn't ignore the question but if you want it spelling out no I wasn't saying that the storm was an act of God, an angel riding in the whirlwind and directing the storm is how George Bush described himself.
Friday they declare they are going to accept international aid, it was Tuesday those people needed help.
The National Guard sent in to shoot looters on sight, what do material goods matter at a time like this?
Politics and posessions are all well and good but humanity should come first.
you are twisting words fred.. they are not shooting looters on sight in fact what the gov said was that people should get food and water any way they can.. the ones they are aiming for are the ones with guns shooting at victims the ones who are raping and pilaging.. not the ones just trying to get necessities..
honestjohn
03-Sep-05, 22:30
you are twisting words fred.. they are not shooting looters on sight in fact what the gov said was that people should get food and water any way they can.. the ones they are aiming for are the ones with guns shooting at victims the ones who are raping and pilaging.. not the ones just trying to get necessities..
On the news last night the State Governor had ordered the National Guard "shoot to kill" any looters.
I didn't ignore the question but if you want it spelling out no I wasn't saying that the storm was an act of God, an angel riding in the whirlwind and directing the storm is how George Bush described himself.
Friday they declare they are going to accept international aid, it was Tuesday those people needed help.
The National Guard sent in to shoot looters on sight, what do material goods matter at a time like this?
Politics and posessions are all well and good but humanity should come first.
Well thanks for clarifying that, it is disgraceful that the response took so long to come in this particular area of the USA, when it would have happened much sooner in California, for example. The USA may be the world's richest and most powerful country but they have major problems of their own but, like the UK, they seem intent in putting the world to right before they put their own house in order. Reality is that the human being is self-interested, that is nature and if it came right down to an "us" or "them" situation then"us" would win every time. In the comfort of our own homes and on our own, Google powered, intellectual high horse we can all be "World Leader Pretend", spouting the ideal without any of the consequences or accountablity. Humanity should indeed come first, then why not invest your spare funds into helping these people instead of buying a DVD recorder and reminding us of what we already know about George being a muppet?
Tom Cornwall
04-Sep-05, 00:52
How is it that a country which can do what it did to Iraq in 3 weeks, takes so long to help its own people. Is it because all the well-off people got out before the hurricane and the ones who wereleft, were, in George Bush's eyes, not worth bothering about?
Well thanks for clarifying that, it is disgraceful that the response took so long to come in this particular area of the USA, when it would have happened much sooner in California, for example. The USA may be the world's richest and most powerful country but they have major problems of their own but, like the UK, they seem intent in putting the world to right before they put their own house in order. Reality is that the human being is self-interested, that is nature and if it came right down to an "us" or "them" situation then"us" would win every time. In the comfort of our own homes and on our own, Google powered, intellectual high horse we can all be "World Leader Pretend", spouting the ideal without any of the consequences or accountablity. Humanity should indeed come first, then why not invest your spare funds into helping these people instead of buying a DVD recorder and reminding us of what we already know about George being a muppet?
Yes with modern technology we can look out over the world and through forums such as this one we can discus world politics and world leaders and share ideas and ideals. I think that is a healthy and positive use for for the internet which could eventually bring changes in the way we all think, bring the world closer together, perhaps we are participating in the start of a revolution which will have an impact on civilisation as great as the invention of the printing press all those years ago.
Alternatively we could just look inwards at the forums themselves and those using them, spend our time finding fault with one another and pointing the accusing finger, instead of criticising the injustice in the world and the policies that breed it we could just criticise one another and while the world squabbles among themselves another muppet will get themselves elected.
landmarker
04-Sep-05, 22:11
The National Guard sent in to shoot looters on sight, what do material goods matter at a time like this?
Looters of anything other than food or drink should always be shot on sight.
It has nothing to do with material value, just a need to maintain some sense of law and order and to resist the emergence of mob rule. Those who exploit such disastrous situations for their own ends deserve no sympathy in my opinion. If I had evacuated, and Armed policemen saw a looter in my house I would definitely want him despatched.
landmarker
I seem to remember London has flood barriers, how would it fare if these were breached, underground et al. Perth, Carlisle & Inverness were flooded recently and that village in the south west of England was swept away. A storm surge in the North Sea swept through sea defences in Norfolk in the 40's -50's ? These things are closer to home than many seem to realise.
honestjohn
05-Sep-05, 16:02
I seem to remember London has flood barriers, how would it fare if these were breached, underground et al. Perth, Carlisle & Inverness were flooded recently and that village in the south west of England was swept away. A storm surge in the North Sea swept through sea defences in Norfolk in the 40's -50's ? These things are closer to home than many seem to realise.
But at least Britain is quick to respond.
I seem to remember London has flood barriers, how would it fare if these were breached, underground et al. Perth, Carlisle & Inverness were flooded recently and that village in the south west of England was swept away. A storm surge in the North Sea swept through sea defences in Norfolk in the 40's -50's ? These things are closer to home than many seem to realise.
But at least Britain is quick to respond.
This 80 year old man also remembers the problems during the 40's - 50's.
Thank you honestjohn for pointing this out to the readers of this subject on the Forum.
I seem to remember London has flood barriers, how would it fare if these were breached, underground et al. Perth, Carlisle & Inverness were flooded recently and that village in the south west of England was swept away. A storm surge in the North Sea swept through sea defences in Norfolk in the 40's -50's ? These things are closer to home than many seem to realise.
The whole disaster echoes of the North Sea flood in the 50s. Much of The Netherlands lies below sea level and was badly hit during the flooding as was the UK. Over two thousand people died and tens of thousands were evacuated. Both countries were fairly un-prepared but as a result they created the worlds most sophisticated sea defence system.
The National Guard sent in to shoot looters on sight, what do material goods matter at a time like this?
Looters of anything other than food or drink should always be shot on sight.
It has nothing to do with material value, just a need to maintain some sense of law and order and to resist the emergence of mob rule. Those who exploit such disastrous situations for their own ends deserve no sympathy in my opinion. If I had evacuated, and Armed policemen saw a looter in my house I would definitely want him despatched.
landmarker
Only if you value property higher than human life.
So you've got all these kids who were born poor and lived poor in the richest country in the world where the rich make their money by hiring marketing experts to make their products irresistable, the madia has been brainwashing them from the day they were born to believe they just have to have whatever the sponsor is selling, things they will never be able to afford. Then one day all the rich folks and policemen ups and goes and leaves them all alone with all those wonderful goodies and expect them not to help themselves.
Just what is the difference between mob rule and democracy anyway?
landmarker
05-Sep-05, 22:44
[quote="fred
Only if you value property higher than human life.
Just what is the difference between mob rule and democracy anyway?
[/quote]
I'd say brains and brawn. Democracies tend to be led by those who think things out.
Mobs are more often ruled by the bullies.
I'm not saying that both groups are mutually ecxlusive Fred but your question deserved an answer.Also, there is never very much debate when mobs are on the rampage.
Democracies love debates.
My property, hard earned , is, when I have complied with requests to evacuate, more valuable than the life of some opportunistic scum looter. Your heart bleeds for the poor, and to an extent mine does to. Poverty is no excuse for extreme lawlessness, rape and murder.To those who bear their poverty with dignity I wish every assistance.
Poverty is relative anyway. For true poverty these American blacks should look to their cousins in Ethiopia and elsewhere on the African continent.
landmarker
just to clarify
they are only shooting those they have no choice and they are shooting armed looters..
like the 4 they killed yesterday were killed because they opened fire on the contracters trying to get in to fix the levees... no one has said anything about people looting to survive.. and as for getting out how could some of them?
the elderly the infirm the young? was mothers suppose to walk hundreds of miles on foot with small children to exscape?
no one knew how bad this was going to be.. and they prob thought they could ride it out..
what broke my heart today was a small boy maybe 4 told one of the rescuers matter of factly " my mamas dead" " your mamas dead?" "yes they pushed her under the water"
no tears no sobs.. just a child having his innocene ripped away and being forced to not only see his mother die but find himself all alone in a world where people are too good to help.. and are of the mentality .. "they were warned they deserve what they get!"
But at least Britain is quick to respond.
If the disaster covered the whole of the Britain, do you really think that would be the case?
I'd like to see anyone get an ambulance out of 6 feet of water to answer an emergency call...
The media should take some of the blame for the slow response as well. In the immediate aftermath they were too eager to report that Katrina had avoided New Orleans and the disaster was not as serious as it could have been. So eager to report this that they didn't allow enough time to survey the full damage report on the levees. Then came the floods and the real disaster.
I don't blame the US or Bush for this, I blame innaccurate reporting by the media. Any emergency service on hearing those first reports would have stepped down from high alert.
Go figure
Margaret M.
08-Sep-05, 14:38
don't blame the US or Bush for this, I blame innaccurate reporting by the media. Any emergency service on hearing those first reports would have stepped down from high alert.
Rheghead, if the governments of this country rely on the media for their information, we are in worse shape than I thought. In this case, their response may have been better if they had been tuned to CNN.
I don't blame the US or Bush for this, I blame innaccurate reporting by the media. Any emergency service on hearing those first reports would have stepped down from high alert.
Go figure
Rheghead,
I agree with Margaret and her comments above, but I dont agree with yours, the Federal US Government was caught with their pants down. The "Media" were in there when the Hurricane was at its height, and were the only means of getting the news out to the world after Katrina had passed. It took days for the US Government to react, leaving the State and Municipal governments to fend for themselves.
I think the Mayor of New Orleans, and his Police Chiefs did a stalwart job in extremley difficult conditions
Here’s a thing – some of this is in response to Fred.
Why do we think that the US is refusing aid from outside?
To Keep a Lid on the Reality of the Situation!
You should see the absolute shambles that is New Orleans right now. The Fed Gov are doing a PR damage limitation role right now. The last thing they want is European or other nations citizens (help teams) roaming New Orleans and seeing for themselves the squalor that these people lived in both prior to and subsequent to Katrina.
Example 1. Last weekend carloads of youths were driving around some of the neighbourhoods of New Orleans looting, raping, and murdering people. There have been instances of “Private Security” who have been hired by multinational corporations who have assets in the flooded areas being barred entry by Sheriff Deputies to prevent them from seeing what is actually happening in certain areas as the law no longer exists. As Fred says – the preoccupation with material wealth over human life is nauseating. These corporations are using resources to protect their material wealth that surely should be directed at saving human life first?
Example 2. As soon as people started to congregate at the Superdome in New Orleans and it became obvious that their evacuation was not imminent, again “Private Security” were sent in to “extract” High Net Worth Individuals for fear of kidnapping/hostage scenarios etc. The other targeted group for “extraction” were foreign and predominantly “European” (read Caucasian) tourists. Get them out before their governments complain or they have horror stories to tell.
Example 3. A famous celeb in the US hired “Private Security” to “extract” members of their extended family when they arrived in the Houston Astrodome, before it became known in the media and to eliminate any threat to their safety. I am sure the 20,000 or so other people in there would have liked to have been “extracted” and brought to safety too. Was it not a slap in the face for the ordinary people trapped in there that their lives were somehow worth less and they were labelled threatening by their very existence?
So it seems, if you are a high net worth individual or corporation – you can move mountains (selectively) – after all, money talks – but if you are not – role the dice and take your chances. How much money should an individual or corporation be allowed to have when their neighbour has only the clothes they stand up in and nothing else?
As my mum says, there are no pockets in a shroud, you can’t take it with you so you might as well do good with the money when you are alive.
As the bloke with the lisp once said, when it comes to dealing with the poor South…. its more than just the Louisiana shrimp that are shellfish.
To address some of the other contributors, its not just the media, or the president, or FEMA or local government, or the weather man who is to blame – it’s the collective mindset of “more is better” and as long as I am alright, then everything is alright. Having a huge outpouring of grief and donations and volunteering etc while needed in the aftermath of an event like this also serves to ease the conscience of the nation for a while. What about the day before Katrina hit, did anyone care about the living conditions of those poor people then? Were people even aware?
As the poor become poorer and more desperate there are two choices for those who are at the opposite end of the social and economic spectrum; help out or build bigger walls…and we know where the latter will lead, it doesn’t bear thinking about.
Any guesses as to which route will be taken?
I am etc.
PS. Fred, this does not mean we will swapping Christmas cards though – so don’t get any ideas.
;)
PS. Fred, this does not mean we will swapping Christmas cards though – so don’t get any ideas.
;)
Don't worry, the truth will all come out in the investigation, Gerge Bush is heading the investigation himself to make sure. Even I couldn't believe that one and I wouldn't have put anything past him. Mind you it's better than declaring war on weather and invading the Amazon to get the butterfly responsible I suppose.
George Brims
08-Sep-05, 23:46
Perhaps some good may come of all this...
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_resignation.jpg
Why do we think that the US is refusing aid from outside?
To Keep a Lid on the Reality of the Situation!
So it seems, if you are a high net worth individual or corporation – you can move mountains (selectively) – after all, money talks – but if you are not – role the dice and take your chances. How much money should an individual or corporation be allowed to have when their neighbour has only the clothes they stand up in and nothing else?
;)
It doesnt take a disaster like Katrina to ask that question or to point out the injustice and greed innherent in capitalism. Neither does it take a disaster like Katrina to create the type of crime you talk about in Mew Orleans. It happens every day throughout the world but it takes a disaster like Katrina to make people more aware of it.
What exactly could the governmet do to combat the problem that came to a head as
the result of Katerina? I believe its a side effect of capatilism where no ones to blame but everyone is responsible.
Maybe its an American thing. I recall the tsunami or other disasters. Non of the social problems develop or at least non are reported like which occurred after Katrina.
It would be niave to say that money didnt talk.
Money makes the world go round. :~(
Perhaps some good may come of all this...
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/bush_resignation.jpg
Sorry to say this Georgie boy but,
Three more years!!!!....and a bit! :lol:
It would be niave to say that money didnt talk.
Indeed, but its the kind of talking that money is currently doing that I am questioning.
Money makes the world go round. :~(
Indeed, but shouldn't it make the world go around for everyone in it?
The point is that the US Administration is trying to keep a lid on this as really they should get their own house in order before they go preaching 'freedom' elsewhere. It makes it a wee bit more difficult to be taken seriously by the international community when they throw stones overseas when they live in an increasingly more fragile glass house at home. It would appear that this event has been the largest expose of how the US Admin do not practice what they preach to the rest of us.
As you say, this type of thing does happen every day throughout the world but it creates potential for major unrest when it happens in the self proclaimed beacon of modern civilization, democracy, coca-cola and the land of the free...
Watch this space... blizzards a comin'
It would be niave to say that money didnt talk.
Indeed, but its the kind of talking that money is currently doing that I am questioning.
Money makes the world go round. :~(
Indeed, but shouldn't it make the world go around for everyone in it?
Watch this space... blizzards a comin'
What your talking about has nothing to do with hurricanes or blizzards. Your claims of injustice are an innherant consequence of capatilism. Its more transparent in New Orleans because of the disaster but my point is, the very same things are happening in all capatilist societies but welfare amongst other things tend to keep the lid on poor peoples gripes They are powerless when the chips are down. Its still happening though and will continue to happen in city ghettos not only in New Orleans but in London or Birmingham or Glasgow. It shouldnt take hurricanes or blizzards to address the injustice your talking about. How many of us would take into our homes one of those socially deprived families for 6 months until the government get their act together?
Economics and social problems go hand in hand. (Marx said that and I agree with it)
Its all very well standing up for the less well off in our societies but ultimately each and every person is responsible for their own stuff. That includes how they behave when hurricanes hit.
Dosvidanya Commissar Gleeber, from your attack on the "Capitalisti" society I take it you have joined the ranks of the orange tanned Tam Sheridan. We be seeing you on your soapbox at the foot of the Mound next.
You sound as if you are the Editor of "Pravda" or worse a full blown card carrying memeber of the Politburo.
You mention the ghettos of London, Birmingham & Glasgow, what have those big citys done to you? Why no mention of the ghettos of Thursa or Week?
Well Tovarisch, I will be sunning myself on the beaches of the Balierics for the next two weeks, I have to spend my ill gotten gains some how :lol:
What your talking about has nothing to do with hurricanes or blizzards.
Way-hay - you got there in the end! I think I mentioned earlier that the hurricane served to expose the socio-economc flaws in the US.
Your claims of injustice are an innherant consequence of capatilism.
Thats a bit of a sweeping generalisation isn't it? I think you will find that capitalism/socialism isn't a black/white issue - its many shades of grey. Your polarised statement sounds very much like a Bushism - "you are either with us or against us" no shades of grey.
Capitalism has the potential to increase the quality of life for all if practised with a conscience....
and the blizzard I refer to was metaphorical...
Way-hay - you got there in the end! I think I mentioned earlier that the hurricane served to expose the socio-economc flaws in the US.
...
There are socio economic flaws in every country in the world. So do we sneer at every country's problems every time a disaster hits there or does US bashing make us feel especially satisfied?
So do we sneer at every country's problems every time a disaster hits there or does US bashing make us feel especially satisfied?
Eh, sneer, bash, no - I was merely observing and pointing out that now that this has become highly visible on the global stage - look out as there will be repercussions....
When Laura Bush has to defend her husband publicly that he is not a racist and that he "loves all his people" you know there will be "trouble at mill" (due to a rapper celeb on TV stating Bush is doing nothing because he doesn't llike black people)
In Nov the republicans pulled out all the stops to mobilise the african american vote to help win the election - now in their hour of need, the african american population are asking we did for you, now what are you doing for us?
And wake up rheghead - my comments have nothing to do with the terrible nature of this disaster which anyone can see is a great tragedy regardless of where and when it happened. I am talking about the hidden side of the deep south which has been exposed as a result of this disaster. Two distinct things.
Stick to talking about football and Jackie Bird if you aren't prepared to read the posts on this topic properly...
George Brims
09-Sep-05, 20:27
My thoughts on this, in no particular order:
The question is not whether or not we have a capitalist or a socialist society. It is about whether the society you have is being managed in a competent manner. Putting a guy who was fired from his last job and had little or no relevant experience in charge of FEMA was not a good management decision. Taking FEMA, a department regarded as a success story under the last administration, and putting it under the umbrella of the huge new Dept of Homeland Security, then cutting its budget, was not a good management decision. Saying publicly that the guy is doing a good job while it is blatantly clear he is not was a bad management decision and a worse political one.
New Orleans was a mess in terms of the size of its poor underclass for a long time before this disaster. It has not helped that under the Bush administration the number of people living under the official poverty line has grown by 9%, whereas it shrunk by 25% under Clinton. So you can have a capitalist society that's improving or one that's going down the tubes. It all depends on the competence of those in charge, and in particular on whether they put pragmatism ahead of doctrine. One of Bush's advisers stated a goal to "shrink government until it's small enogh to drown in a bathtub". Well it just drowned in New Orleans.
Margaret M.
09-Sep-05, 23:30
Very well said, George! Have a wonderful vacation, Golach. We expect a full report when you get back.
Apparently the reason why federal help didn't arrive earlier was that the Mayor of N.O. and the Louisiana governor were reluctant to declare a state emergency,( they were in 'major cover yer back mode). Federal help can't intervene unless one is declared. As I understand things it was Bush who pushed them into declaring one.
Apparently the reason why federal help didn't arrive earlier was that the Mayor of N.O. and the Louisiana governor were reluctant to declare a state emergency,( they were in 'major cover yer back mode). Federal help can't intervene unless one is declared. As I understand things it was Bush who pushed them into declaring one.
That just isn't true.
The Louisiana Governor declared a state of emergency on the 26th Aug. Bush signed it on the 27th.
Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.
BY BOB WILLIAMS
Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT
As the devastation of Hurricane Katrina continues to shock and sadden the nation, the question on many lips is, Who is to blame for the inadequate response?
As a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, I can fully understand and empathize with the people and public officials over the loss of life and property.
Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.
The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.
The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.
In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.
A year ago, as Hurricane Ivan approached, New Orleans ordered an evacuation but did not use city or school buses to help people evacuate. As a result many of the poorest citizens were unable to evacuate. Fortunately, the hurricane changed course and did not hit New Orleans, but both Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin acknowledged the need for a better evacuation plan. Again, they did not take corrective actions. In 1998, during a threat by Hurricane George, 14,000 people were sent to the Superdome and theft and vandalism were rampant due to inadequate security. Again, these problems were not corrected.
The New Orleans contingency plan is still, as of this writing, on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored.
Mayor Nagin was responsible for giving the order for mandatory evacuation and supervising the actual evacuation: His Office of Emergency Preparedness (not the federal government) must coordinate with the state on elements of evacuation and assist in directing the transportation of evacuees to staging areas. Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation.
The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.
The evacuation plan warned that "if an evacuation order is issued without the mechanisms needed to disseminate the information to the affected persons, then we face the possibility of having large numbers of people either stranded and left to the mercy of a storm, or left in an area impacted by toxic materials." That is precisely what happened because of the mayor's failure.
Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.
The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.
In addition, unlike the governors of New York, Oklahoma and California in past disasters, Gov. Blanco failed to take charge of the situation and ensure that the state emergency operation facility was in constant contact with Mayor Nagin and FEMA. It is likely that thousands of people died because of the failure of Gov. Blanco to implement the state plan, which mentions the possible need to evacuate up to one million people. The plan clearly gives the governor the authority for declaring an emergency, sending in state resources to the disaster area and requesting necessary federal assistance.
State legislators and governors nationwide need to update their contingency plans and the operation procedures for state emergency centers. Hurricane Katrina had been forecast for days, but that will not always be the case with a disaster (think of terrorist attacks). It must be made clear that the governor and locally elected officials are in charge of the "first response."
I am not attempting to excuse some of the delays in FEMA's response. Congress and the president need to take corrective action there, also. However, if citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request.
The Louisiana Legislature should conduct an immediate investigation into the failures of state and local officials to implement the written emergency plans. The tragedy is not over, and real leadership in the state and local government are essential in the months to come. More importantly, the hurricane season is still upon us, and local and state officials must stay focused on the jobs for which they were elected--and not on the deadly game of passing the emergency buck.
Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.
BY BOB WILLIAMS
Wednesday, September 7, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT
I know what he said, he was lying like I said.
The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.
Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209
Dear Mr. President:
Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster
Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5121-5206 (Stafford Act),
and implemented by 44 CFR § 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency
for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period
beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the
southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the
mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20
corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the
areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.
In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State
law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26,
2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of
Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations
of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the
remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering
Plan.
Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of
such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the
capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that
supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect
property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a
disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures,
direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP)
assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.
Preliminary estimates of the types and amount of emergency assistance
needed under the Stafford Act, and emergency assistance from certain
Federal agencies under other statutory authorities are tabulated in
Enclosure A.
The following information is furnished on the nature and amount of State
and local resources that have been or will be used to alleviate the
conditions of this emergency:
. Department of Social Services (DSS): Opening (3) Special Need Shelters
(SNS) and establishing (3) on Standby.
. Department of Health and Hospitals (DHH): Opening (3) Shelters and
establishing (3) on Standby.
. Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness (OHSEP): Providing
generators and support staff for SNS and Public Shelters.
. Louisiana State Police (LSP): Providing support for the phased evacuation
of the coastal areas.
. Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries (WLF): Supporting the
evacuation of the affected population and preparing for Search and Rescue
Missions.
. Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD):
Coordinating traffic flow and management of the evacuations routes with
local officials and the State of Mississippi.
The following information is furnished on efforts and resources of other
Federal agencies, which have been or will be used in responding to this
incident:
. FEMA ERT-A Team en-route.
I certify that for this emergency, the State and local governments will
assume all applicable non-Federal share of costs required by the Stafford
Act.
I request Direct Federal assistance for work and services to save lives and
protect property.
(a) List any reasons State and local government cannot perform or contract
for performance, (if applicable).
(b) Specify the type of assistance requested.
In accordance with 44 CFR § 206.208, the State of Louisiana agrees that it
will, with respect to Direct Federal assistance:
1. Provide without cost to the United States all lands, easement, and
rights-of-ways necessary to accomplish the approved work.
2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the requested
work, and shall indemnify the Federal Government against any claims arising
from such work;
3. Provide reimbursement to FEMA for the non-Federal share of the cost of
such work in accordance with the provisions of the FEMA-State Agreement; and
4. Assist the performing Federal agency in all support and local
jurisdictional matters.
In addition, I anticipate the need for debris removal, which poses an
immediate threat to lives, public health, and safety.
Pursuant to Sections 502 and 407 of the Stafford Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 5192 &
5173, the State agrees to indemnify and hold harmless the United States of
America for any claims arising from the removal of debris or wreckage for
this disaster. The State agrees that debris removal from public and private
property will not occur until the landowner signs an unconditional
authorization for the removal of debris.
I have designated Mr. Art Jones as the State Coordinating Officer for this
request. He will work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency in
damage assessments and may provide further information or justification on
my behalf.
Sincerely,
Kathleen Babineaux Blanco
Governor
Fred, That was released on the 27th.
Here is the release from the White House on the 27th. Looks like the president did his job too.
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
August 27, 2005
Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana
The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing.
The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn.
Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding.
Representing FEMA, Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary for Emergency Preparedness and Response, Department of Homeland Security, named William Lokey as the Federal Coordinating Officer for Federal recovery operations in the affected area.
Fred, That was released on the 27th.
Here is the release from the White House on the 27th. Looks like the president did his job too.
Yes he declared a state of emergency in Louisiana on the 27th if you call that doing his job.
Now if only he hadn't given all the top jobs at FEMA to his mates who had no qualifications or experience. If only the 256th Louisiana National Guard Brigade hadn't been in Iraq along with their High Water Vehicles. If only the budget for the repair of levees hadn't been slashed to finance tax cuts for the rich.
Now fred you are changing the goal posts. I agree that some of those decisions were wrong but they were not done maliciously to make the lives of black new orleans citizens intolerable. Nor was the delayed response racist latency which was first banded about. They had a evacuation plan but it was seriously flawed.
Yes this tragedy has unearthed the desperate poverty of black america in the american south but as far as the rescuers go they have done a good job with the tools that were available.
If only the holes in the emergency plan had been rectified after they were first exposed...
Now fred you are changing the goal posts. I agree that some of those decisions were wrong but they were not done maliciously to make the lives of black new orleans citizens intolerable. Nor was the delayed response racist latency which was first banded about. They had a evacuation plan but it was seriously flawed.
No, I'm not moving the goalposts. I have never claimed that Bush was directly responsible for the failings in the relief operation as you claimed the Govenor of Louisiana and the Mayor of New Orleans were. I never said those decisions were made maliciously, I never said anything about racism.
As it happens all three of those decisions were based on one thing, greed, the greed of a small group of ultra rich ultra right people who put Bush in the Whitehouse for one reason and one reason only, to make them even more rich and even more powerful. That is why the men and resources which were needed in Louisiana were in Iraq, that is why the well paid posts at the head of FEMA were taken by incompetents and that is why money wasn't spent on upgrading the levees to withstand a category 5 huricane which everyone knew would come one day.
If only the budget for the repair of levees hadn't been slashed to finance tax cuts for the rich.
Well as a litmus test to see if you are correct about Bush, the hurricane and everything in it, can you prove the above claim. If not then you are talking rubbish.
Fred, That was released on the 27th.
Here is the release from the White House on the 27th. Looks like the president did his job too.
Yes he declared a state of emergency in Louisiana on the 27th if you call that doing his job.
Now if only he hadn't given all the top jobs at FEMA to his mates who had no qualifications or experience. If only the 256th Louisiana National Guard Brigade hadn't been in Iraq along with their High Water Vehicles. If only the budget for the repair of levees hadn't been slashed to finance tax cuts for the rich.
There were no shortage of military even with the 256th being in Iraq. High water vehicles. There were hundreds of buses available that were not only NOT used at all but not moved to higher ground either.
The budget for the repair of levees was NOT ordered initially by Bush, but by Clinton. The Levee Board of New Orleans misused the budget they were given.
Tax cuts for the rich? It's simple math. Those who paid the most, got the most back. Even those who paid very little in taxes often got back more than they paid in, but everyone who paid in got something back. There were no tax cuts just for the rich.
[quote="fred"][quote=Rheghead]
There were no shortage of military even with the 256th being in Iraq. High water vehicles. There were hundreds of buses available that were not only NOT used at all but not moved to higher ground either.
City owned buses were in use prior to the huricane ferrying people to the Superdome. If you think about it logically the busses would have to have been making over a 200 mile round trip to get people out of the danger zone, they could only manage to evacuate a fraction of the people and those left would have nothing. By using the buses to ferry people to the Superdome everyone could be in a place of safety.
School buses were not used due to their drivers heeding the evacuation call, anyhow the school buses not being controled by the city it would have been FAMAs job to coordinate them once the state of emergency had been declared.
I see Haliburton were the first company to get a contract for the clearup operation, thought they would have screwed enough money out of the American taxpayer in Iraq, wonder if it had anything to do with their ex CEO being Vice President.
Fred where is evidence to back up your claim that money set aside for levee maintenance was used to provide tax cuts for the rich? Are you not prepared to back that one up? :roll:
Fred where is evidence to back up your claim that money set aside for levee maintenance was used to provide tax cuts for the rich? Are you not prepared to back that one up? :roll:
Which bit don't you believe? The reduction in the levee repair budget or the tax cuts? The tax cuts which did not apply equally to rich and poor as you claimed.
Are you denying either of those happened?
George Brims
12-Sep-05, 19:38
Facts:
The Army Corps of Engineers requested more money for levee improvements than they were assigned.
Most of the tax cuts enacted by the Bush administration have been heavily biased towards giving money back to the rich.
Opinion:
You can't say that there is a *direct* connection between these two things, any more than you can say the tax cuts for the rich are impacting education, or the highways. What you can say is that this administration has given high priority to rewarding its rich donors for their support in getting elected, and low priority to the things they were elected to maintain (such as education, or highways, or disaster preparation).
To me what is worse than the poor job they did in response to this disaster (and the local administrators are not blameless) is the concerted effort they have made to take NO responsibility whatsoever. Spreading these continuous lies about the federal response being hampered by the locals not asking for help is just despicable. The local state of emergency was declared before the hurricane arrived, as was the federal state of emergency. The legal consequence of the latter is that the federal goverment is immediately responsible for coordinating the whole disaster response. And that response was lacking; severely lacking. The FEMA director asked his boss, the head of Honeland Security, for 1000 people to help, not because there was some kind of a plan that called for 1000 personnel, but because it would give a good impression. Pitiful.
Do I have to spell it out for you?
If only the budget for the repair of levees hadn't been slashed to finance tax cuts for the rich.
You claimed that one was done specifically to enable the other.
And I say prove it.
So far I am still waiting for proof, like with a lot of other things that you have claimed.. [lol]
There were no shortage of military even with the 256th being in Iraq. High water vehicles. There were hundreds of buses available that were not only NOT used at all but not moved to higher ground either.
City owned buses were in use prior to the huricane ferrying people to the Superdome. If you think about it logically the busses would have to have been making over a 200 mile round trip to get people out of the danger zone, they could only manage to evacuate a fraction of the people and those left would have nothing. By using the buses to ferry people to the Superdome everyone could be in a place of safety.
School buses were not used due to their drivers heeding the evacuation call, anyhow the school buses not being controled by the city it would have been FAMAs job to coordinate them once the state of emergency had been declared.
I see Haliburton were the first company to get a contract for the clearup operation, thought they would have screwed enough money out of the American taxpayer in Iraq, wonder if it had anything to do with their ex CEO being Vice President.
Have you read the interview with Mayor Nagin by Tim Russert? Even Mayor Nagin admits that the breakdown in evacuation/rescue efforts were at the local and state levels and he absolves the president. Nagin's excuse about the busses was that he couldn't find drivers.
I'd be willing to bet that a large number of the evacuees would have been happy to drive those busses. New Orleans had so many available busses they could have evacuated over 1,000 people per hour and could have at least gotten them beyond the city limits where they could have been picked up easily by rescue vehicles. Instead, they were ferried to the SuperDome which had not been stocked with food or water and where the roof leaked and the electricity went off, etc.
Your immediate response is to question if the awarding of the contract has anything to do with the vp being Halliburton's ex-CEO. My immediate response is are they the most qualified to do the job? Halliburton is a massive company with many resources and much talent. Do you know of another more qualified candidate? Do you hear complaints from those other more qualified or even equally qualified candidates?
Do I have to spell it out for you?
If only the budget for the repair of levees hadn't been slashed to finance tax cuts for the rich.
You claimed that one was done specifically to enable the other.
And I say prove it.
So far I am still waiting for proof, like with a lot of other things that you have claimed.. [lol]
Like I said, which bit don't you believe, the tax cuts for the rich or the budget for the repair levees being slashed? They both happened.
It seems to me like it's you who has been doing all the claiming about specific events since the Hurricane and trying to point the finger of blame. You may notice that my claims are about American government policy before the hurricane, the policy of invading other peoples countries to take their oil, the policy of robbing the poor to give to the rich, the policy of giving jobs to the boys instead of the qualified.
You claimed that the local government delayed in declaring a state of emergency, I proved they declared a state of emergency three days before the hurricane hit. You say buses wern't used yet city owned buses were in use ferrying people to the Superdome
and the reason the other busses wern't used is because there was no one to drive them.
I'd be willing to bet that a large number of the evacuees would have been happy to drive those busses. New Orleans had so many available busses they could have evacuated over 1,000 people per hour and could have at least gotten them beyond the city limits where they could have been picked up easily by rescue vehicles. Instead, they were ferried to the SuperDome which had not been stocked with food or water and where the roof leaked and the electricity went off, etc.
Better off with a leaky roof and no electricity than standing at the side of a road somewhere when the hurricane hit because some city official had decided not to follow the emergency plans,
Your immediate response is to question if the awarding of the contract has anything to do with the vp being Halliburton's ex-CEO. My immediate response is are they the most qualified to do the job? Halliburton is a massive company with many resources and much talent. Do you know of another more qualified candidate? Do you hear complaints from those other more qualified or even equally qualified candidates?
Are you saying that years of prefferential treatment from the government has resulted in Haliburton having a monopoly?
Are you saying that years of prefferential treatment from the government has resulted in Haliburton having a monopoly?
No I think you are gonna say that. So far you have not proved or presented any evidence to make any proof that levee monies was diverted to enable tax cuts for the rich. Without proof how do you come to that conclusion?
OK, I could counter claim by saying those monies were diverted to provide money for the Tsunami disaster.
Now both our suggestions are without proof, I admit mine is a wild suggestion, are you gonna retract yours?
Are you saying that years of prefferential treatment from the government has resulted in Haliburton having a monopoly?
No I think you are gonna say that. So far you have not proved or presented any evidence to make any proof that levee monies was diverted to enable tax cuts for the rich. Without proof how do you come to that conclusion?
I don't need proof to come to that conclusion any more than if the chancellor declared at the next budget he was abolishing capital gains tax and slashing the national health budget I would need proof that the exact same money saved slashing the national health budget was spent on abolishing capital gains tax to say he took money from the sick to give to the rich.
If there is a box with a hundred pounds in and ten pounds is taken from one person to put into the box then ten pounds is taken out of the box to give to another person you don't have to prove it was the exact same ten pound note to say ten pounds was taken from one person to give to another.
I can prove the budget for levee repairs was slashed, I can prove tax cuts which greatly benefited the rich and that is all the proof I need for my argument. If you want proof for your strawman arguments find it yourself.
Wrong fred. In the budget the chancellor will describe his strategy to fund such things like tax cuts for the rich, and he will state where the money is coming from. The americans are just the same.
OK, I claim that the cuts in NASA spending have now been used to subsidise Halliburton defence contracts and the money saved on school books in Ohio were used to pay off warlords in Somalia, the savings on new shoes for animal control officers in florida are used to fund covert operations in Columbia against drug barons, ad infinitum
All these claims are just as true as your claim fred, just don't ask me to prove them... :roll:
Wrong fred. In the budget the chancellor will describe his strategy to fund such things like tax cuts for the rich, and he will state where the money is coming from. The americans are just the same.
They do?
So in 2003 when Bush annouced he was abolishing the federal tax on share dividends where did he say the money was coming from to pay for it?
That is nothing to do with hurricanes. Likewise in 1991 we were given a £150 reduction each on our poll tax but VAT was increased from 15% to 17.5% to pay for the reduction. Why are we still paying that extra 2,5%? Further more, what is it being spent on? Scottish devolution?
Non sequitturs
That is nothing to do with hurricanes.
When they stop spending money on flood defences to pay for it it is.
That is nothing to do with hurricanes.
When they stop spending money on flood defences to pay for it it is.
They never stopped spending money, they just never got what they wanted, nobody gets what they want unless there is some extraodinary political gain for the ruling party, eg the scots parliament.
Anyway, I have heard a report that the levees were blown up the day after Katrina but it unconfirmed at the moment. This may be bunkum but if proved correct you will hear it before me probably.
Anyway, I have heard a report that the levees were blown up the day after Katrina but it unconfirmed at the moment. This may be bunkum but if proved correct you will hear it before me probably.
I wouldn't rule out the possibility. If you know the levee is going to go somewhere it's good sense for it to be where you want it to go not leave it to chance. They would probably have plans made well in advance of the hurricane working out exactly where the best place for a breach would be for minimum damage.
Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, maybe we will never know.
George Brims
15-Sep-05, 00:43
"The levees were blown up" falls into the same category as "There were no Jews at work in the World Trade Center on Sept 11th", an utter and outright lie that probably started out as speculation.
What isn't clear yet is whether the levees broke because they were overtopped and the spilling water eroded them, or they collapsed before being overtopped because they weren't strong enough to hold back the water at their design height.
Rheghead wrote:
In the budget the chancellor will describe his strategy to fund such things like tax cuts for the rich, and he will state where the money is coming from. The americans are just the same.
There is no equivalent occasion in American politics to the CHancellor standing up in front of Parliament and outlining the spending and taxing plan, including stating what changes are tradeoffs. It would be a damn good idea if there was. Most people here have no idea of some of the things being done in their name. Spending bills for different categories such as energy or transport(ation) are slipped through Congress one by one. Here's a ridiculous example of what that does. In the recently passed Transportation Bill, the sum of $233 million was earmarked to build a bridge from Ketchican, Alaska (population 8,000) to the nearby island where the local airport is located (population 50). This bridge will be as long as the Golden Gate and big enough to allow ships to pass underneath. All because the Representative from Alaska heads the House committee that drafted the bill. Now $233 million worth of levee spending might not have prevented the flooding of New Orleans, but I bet it would have gone a long way.
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