View Full Version : Was he right?
j4bberw0ck
04-Nov-07, 23:38
A political party candidate has just stepped down (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://politics.guardian.co.uk/conservatives/story/0,,2205165,00.html) after suggesting Enoch Powell was right; unrestricted immigration to the UK "is madness".
Was he - Powell - right, or wrong?
Anyone wanting to read the speech can see it here. (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/powell_press.htm)
And no, I'm not a BNP supporter. I happen to think it's an important piece of social history becoming more relevant every day.
I'll be perfectly honest, and I'm in no way racist, but immigration in the country is a complete joke. I'm sick of the amount of people who can walk into this country and recieve benefits. The man was right... immigration is out of control and has been for a long time. I think only now, are the people of this country realising how big a problem it is.
People are over PC these days. We can't say no to immigrants because they are ethnic minorities... what a load of crap. We can say no to anyone. The government choose not to.
A political party candidate has just stepped down (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://politics.guardian.co.uk/conservatives/story/0,,2205165,00.html) after suggesting Enoch Powell was right; unrestricted immigration to the UK "is madness".
Was he right, or wrong?
Anyone wanting to read the speech can see it here. (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/powell_press.htm)
And no, I'm not a BNP supporter. I happen to think it's an important piece of social history becoming more relevant every day.
I cannot imagine why anyone would would wish to seek refuge here, unless they were truly persecuted in their own country.
Kariax
He made that speech nearly forty years ago, and died nearly 10 years ago.
I wonder what he would have said about all the immigrants that have come to this country in the last 10 years with all these counties joining the EU.
Since 1997 1.1 million people have come to the UK and taken an estimated 40.7 percent of the jobs available.
luskentyre
05-Nov-07, 00:16
Ok, being a bit of a devils advocate here - but people seem to criticise immigrants for claiming benefits, AND for taking jobs. Now, they can't be doing both - so is it just their being here that people object to? If that's the case then aren't we guilty of just disliking people because they're born in another country?
Luskentyre, that is a misconception. Admittedly an individual can't do both but certainly a large number of people are able to do both by a proportion of them doing one and the rest the other.
~The immigrants I have met so far all seem to be doing the jobs that people from the UK do not want to do.......
Perhaps in the south there is a lot, but to be honest most of them are far more hard working than the average SCOTTISH benefit claimant sitting in a flat in glasgow :(
Immigration, in my eyes, isn't the biggest problem.
My biggest issue is with "asylum seekers" who so desperately need to escape their "torture" in their home countries. These people queue at the channel tunnel to get to Britain. Can anyone tell me what "torture" they would experience if they stopped in France?
Britain has been too tolerant with immigration for too long.
In my view the influx of migrant WORKERS is a totally different issue. If people are coming here, finding jobs and working in jobs that were previously unfilled, so be it.
I can honestly see a huge change in politics in Britain in the next few years, as the political parties suddenly realise that the "man on the street" would support policies against immigration etc. I just hope it's a "reliable" party that starts the moves. I'd hate to see the BNP getting "protest votes" just because none of the other parties address the issue.
I suspect a lot of trouble is caused by the speed with which the numbers have increased. Add to that the fact that the Government and various other organisations, both Government run and Voluntary, have constantly lied. What makes it more ludicrous is the, “Oops, look what we’ve just found, a few hundred thousand people we hadn’t noticed before!” as if they had just found a fiver in their pocket they didn’t know was there.
The result of the constant lies and misinformation means that the situation is made much worse by the fact that absolutely no provision could be made to provide what was necessary for the numbers involved. Add to that the fact that many of them end up in particular areas and the strain on the services in those areas must be horrific.
It would be like five thousand families (just to pluck a figure out of the air) suddenly moving into Caithness and every organisation outside the area burying their heads and denying they existed. Try and imagine how Schools, the Health Service, Housing etc would cope with no increased facilities or funding.
I would suspect the problems such a situation created would, to say the least, cause some friction and that would hardly be the fault of the local population or the new arrivals. I would also add that I doubt it would matter if those families came from the other side of the world or somewhere else within Scotland, there would still be problems.
Camel Spider
05-Nov-07, 09:56
All this Politician did was express a viewpoint that is important to the country and which most people agree with, at least if the Poll results on this thread are anything to go by.
Call me old fashioned but isnt that what they are supposed to do ??, for me he hit the nail right on the head. But would he have had to resign if he had said that the non immigrant population of Britian were lazy and the immigrants were amazing people and much harder working than the white heterosexual male population.
Exactly .. Political Correctness strikes again.
Where are the rivers of blood then? I think 40 years should be long enough for the flow to begin. If it hasn't then he was plainly wrong, he gave legitimacy to thousands of racist thugs who still go round with their black bomber jackets and shaven heads leafleting for the few that think wearing a suit makes them respectable politicians. Leafleting in the areas second and third generation incomers live, spreading their hatred under the guise of the democratic process. A number of their candidates have pasts that include convictions for violence and/or inciting racial hatred.
I know it is a step to go from the original premis to the rise of the BNP but a lot of the ideas taken to their conclusion unchallenged go against having a society that is fair and equal for everyone in it.
I am sure people are not racist but sitting at home seething about the fact that people from the EU can claim benefits anywhere in the EU, or that asylum seekers who can't get benefits until their asylum claim is granted are somehow undermining society; is to fall for the spin that the Daily Express and the like put on what happens. It is the seed that if allowed to flourish becomes National Socialism, that somehow a group of other people are responsible for all our ills. Personally I don't like the fact that manufacturing has moved to low income countries but its a fact, we've got to live with it.
The qualities our countries are known for; tolerance, democracy and justice are worthy and worth fighting for. Political correctness may be difficult sometimes but the values that underlie it make it something to cherish.
Enoch Powell was racist....out and out.
Anyone hoping to go into politics, really needs to have the gumption to stop the soundbites if they can't be bothered to read the whole speech...so a candidate without gumption is no loss.
I agree with much of what davem has said, but I have no problem with immigration controls, provided they are colourblind.
Camel Spider
05-Nov-07, 12:05
Where are the rivers of blood then? I think 40 years should be long enough for the flow to begin. If it hasn't then he was plainly wrong, he gave legitimacy to thousands of racist thugs who still go round with their black bomber jackets and shaven heads leafleting for the few that think wearing a suit makes them respectable politicians. Leafleting in the areas second and third generation incomers live, spreading their hatred under the guise of the democratic process. A number of their candidates have pasts that include convictions for violence and/or inciting racial hatred.
I know it is a step to go from the original premis to the rise of the BNP but a lot of the ideas taken to their conclusion unchallenged go against having a society that is fair and equal for everyone in it.
I am sure people are not racist but sitting at home seething about the fact that people from the EU can claim benefits anywhere in the EU, or that asylum seekers who can't get benefits until their asylum claim is granted are somehow undermining society; is to fall for the spin that the Daily Express and the like put on what happens. It is the seed that if allowed to flourish becomes National Socialism, that somehow a group of other people are responsible for all our ills. Personally I don't like the fact that manufacturing has moved to low income countries but its a fact, we've got to live with it.
The qualities our countries are known for; tolerance, democracy and justice are worthy and worth fighting for. Political correctness may be difficult sometimes but the values that underlie it make it something to cherish.
I have never read such utter tripe in my life.
Do you know anything about Enoch Powell ??, are you aware of the "Rivers of Blood" quote and the context it was made ??, what Enoch actually said was that mass immigration would change Britian forever and it has. Go and do a bit of research before you start basically accusing people of being somehow racist or sympathetic with the BNP just because they have an opinion that you dont agree with. We cannot even express an opinion in this country these days if the politically correct brigade say you shouldnt.
Try Here for the Speech .. http://www.hippy.freeserve.co.uk/rofblood.htm .. and here for a little about Enoch Powell .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enoch_Powell
And if you really want to find a river of blood then look no further than recent events in this Country where immigrants that we gave shelter and aid to reward us by trying to bomb, kill and maim the very people who helped them in their hour of need.
Now tell me Enoch was wrong .. [disgust]
If you read what i wrote you will see that I said it was the seed that leads to the growth of facism. I do not accuse anyone of stepping down that road merely that believing that the problem lies within people who are other than ourselves is the start of that journey and needs considering. I know full well who Enoch was and know enough of his beliefs to have been surprised that he would make a speech that a man as intelligent as he, might have anticipated the results of; and the interpretations whether erroneous or not.
As to bombings over here, I think zealotry of any description should have no place in any society. I do think invading Iraq without a plan, Guantanamo Bay etc makes it easier for these people to recruit.
You can happily disagree with my sentiments, I'd appreciate you reading what was written rather than assuming my ignorance.
"Slogan: "Enoch was right"
In the United Kingdom, particularly in England, "Enoch was right" became a phrase of political rhetoric throughout the 1970s, employed generally by the far right, inviting comparison of aspects of contemporary English society with predictions made by Powell in the Rivers of Blood speech. The phrase implies opposition to immigration and multiculturalism."
A quote from the Wikipedia - your reference, it may be unjust but, thats how the far right took it.
What I meant to add was that as far as the fundamentalists go, you can't fight ideas with bullets, we used to leave other countries well alone, if there was an injustice we would complain diplomatically but not wade in with cruise missiles. If you react to any provocation by attacking the source you have lost the moral high ground. We do have a reputation for tolerance, I just feel it is worth working on, the UK as a whole has slipped up on that lately and I think it is worth thinking on individually too.
And if you really want to find a river of blood then look no further than recent events in this Country where immigrants that we gave shelter and aid to reward us by trying to bomb, kill and maim the very people who helped them in their hour of need.
We gave shelter to an awful lot of immigrants and many of them and their children went on to do great things, our health service has benefited greatly from them to name but one, they have saved countless lives.
Yet you only see the few, call the deaths of 56 people rivers of blood, hold them all responsible.
Davem got it right.
Camel Spider
05-Nov-07, 13:58
If you read what i wrote you will see that I said it was the seed that leads to the growth of facism. I do not accuse anyone of stepping down that road merely that believing that the problem lies within people who are other than ourselves is the start of that journey and needs considering. I know full well who Enoch was and know enough of his beliefs to have been surprised that he would make a speech that a man as intelligent as he, might have anticipated the results of; and the interpretations whether erroneous or not.
As to bombings over here, I think zealotry of any description should have no place in any society. I do think invading Iraq without a plan, Guantanamo Bay etc makes it easier for these people to recruit.
You can happily disagree with my sentiments, I'd appreciate you reading what was written rather than assuming my ignorance.
Im sorry but your first paragraph sounds like two dictionaries collided !!, I keep thinking of the Pulp Fiction scene where Samuel Jackson keeps asking .. "English .. do you speak it ??"
I cant engage in a battle of wits with you, its not fair as you are clearly unarmed.
j4bberw0ck
05-Nov-07, 14:16
If you read what i wrote you will see that I said it was the seed that leads to the growth of facism.
A quote from the Wikipedia - your reference, it may be unjust but, thats how the far right took it.
Fascism isn't defined by racial or religious intolerance. Fascism is a political belief system in which the interests of the Government and the State override and outweigh the interests of the individual or individuals. Equally, there's nothing exclusively right wing about racial and religious intolerance. And if by "far right" you're thinking of the BNP - forget it. Like Hitler's National Socialists, they're Socialists; they believe in State control, and increasing centralisation of Government functions. They're certainly Fascist but it's another all too common misconception that Fascism is a disease of so-called right wing politics.
Quote - Im sorry but your first paragraph sounds like two dictionaries collided !!, I keep thinking of the Pulp Fiction scene where Samuel Jackson keeps asking .. "English .. do you speak it ??"
I cant engage in a battle of wits with you, its not fair as you are clearly unarmed.
__________________
Then you live happily with your undoubted superiority.
thebigman
05-Nov-07, 15:23
I
And if you really want to find a river of blood then look no further than recent events in this Country where immigrants that we gave shelter and aid to reward us by trying to bomb, kill and maim the very people who helped them in their hour of need. [disgust]
That's a bit harsh, there are thousands of innocent, hardworking Irish people in this country.
Camel Spider
05-Nov-07, 15:43
That's a bit harsh, there are thousands of innocent, hardworking Irish people in this country.
:eek::eek: .. youre winding me up right ??
I was referring to Muslim Extremists.
:eek::eek: .. youre winding me up right ??
I was referring to Muslim Extremists.
What's the difference?
Mrs Thatcher will now realize that Britain cannot occupy our country and torture our prisoners and shoot our people in their own streets and get away with it. Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always. Give Ireland peace and there will be no more war.
IRA statement after Brighton bombing.
thebigman
05-Nov-07, 16:34
:eek::eek: .. youre winding me up right ??
I was referring to Muslim Extremists.
So it's only the coloured or Arab immigrants that are the problem then?
As far as I'm aware most of the Muslim extremists responsible for terror attacks in country were born here.
Asking a Scot if he/she is racist is like asking the Pope if he is Catholic
We are English but love Scotland and the Scots people we have met whereever in Britain, but i am not sure those sentiments are reciprocated.
My wife is one quarter Scottish but I still love her!!.
There is still time for the rivers of blood, racial unrest could start so easily.
As a very recent immigrant to the UK I am following this discussion with interest.
I am working in a position that had been vacant for two years. I don't think I took employment away from anyone.
As to claiming benefits, well I haven't yet received a bill from that nice young doctor who drew blood from my arm about a month ago. So I must be on some kind of social register.
On a positive note, I have finally signed up for a TV licence.
Camel Spider
05-Nov-07, 17:40
So it's only the coloured or Arab immigrants that are the problem then?
As far as I'm aware most of the Muslim extremists responsible for terror attacks in country were born here.
Did IQ's suddenly drop since this Morning ??
When was the last IRA bombing on the mainland ??, why on earth would you assume I was talking about the Irish ?? The situation in Northern Ireland had zero to do with Immigration, it was a political situation in a part of the United Kingdom.
And if you cant work out that the Extremism problem in Britian today is down to one group then nothing I say will convince you.
Funny thing is I am going to be an Immigrant in another country myself very soon .. and I am glad to be going.
Camel Spider
05-Nov-07, 17:52
Asking a Scot if he/she is racist is like asking the Pope if he is Catholic
We are English but love Scotland and the Scots people we have met whereever in Britain, but i am not sure those sentiments are reciprocated.
My wife is one quarter Scottish but I still love her!!.
There is still time for the rivers of blood, racial unrest could start so easily.
And asking an Englishman if he is arrogant is like asking the Queen if she is Protestant.
And asking an Englishman if he is arrogant is like asking the Queen if she is Protestant.
QED !
Camel Spider
05-Nov-07, 19:04
It is just too easy.
thebigman
05-Nov-07, 19:55
Funny thing is I am going to be an Immigrant in another country myself very soon .. and I am glad to be going.
Hopefully your new abode will be more tollerant of immigrants than yourself.
Immigration, in my eyes, isn't the biggest problem.
My biggest issue is with "asylum seekers" who so desperately need to escape their "torture" in their home countries. These people queue at the channel tunnel to get to Britain. Can anyone tell me what "torture" they would experience if they stopped in France?
Too true!:roll:
Fruit pickers are cool dudes but folks who have had electrodes strapped to their 'nethers' or their feet birched....who needs the grief..they will just want counselling on the NHS!
Why don't they stop at France and be grateful for having escaped? :eek:
Forgive my irony!
Perhaps they are not far enough away from the source of their torture ..or perhaps they have a misguided belief that the 'Empire ' who put, or left them in such countries after exploiting them for all they were worth..really DID mean that they were part of the family and that they could find compassion and justice here!
Poor deluded souls..how we have let them down..not to mention ourselves!
karia
A workmate described Enoch Powell today as 'Britains greatest Patriot' I did not disagree. I think its important to see the speech as a whole, not only the parts that set off the PC brigade.
Camel Spider
05-Nov-07, 21:37
Hopefully your new abode will be more tollerant of immigrants than yourself.
So I am deemed intollerant because I disagree with you is that it ??
Typical PC thought police cop out .. if you dont agree with me I will make you out to be the bad guy.
If you cant argue the toss at least have the decency not to throw assumptions as you skulk out.
DeHaviLand
05-Nov-07, 23:33
Asking a Scot if he/she is racist is like asking the Pope if he is Catholic
We are English but love Scotland and the Scots people we have met whereever in Britain, but i am not sure those sentiments are reciprocated.
My wife is one quarter Scottish but I still love her!!.
There is still time for the rivers of blood, racial unrest could start so easily.
I agree with your last sentence, and it may well come about through the stupidity of people who want to tar every member of a nation with the same brush.
Your assertion that all Scots are racist is idiotic in the extreme. And you wonder why the Scots may not like you!! Sheesh [evil]
I'm quite sure that Enoch is enjoying the company of Bernard Manning somewhere somehow!
thebigman
06-Nov-07, 01:02
So I am deemed intollerant because I disagree with you is that it ??
Typical PC thought police cop out .. if you dont agree with me I will make you out to be the bad guy.
If you cant argue the toss at least have the decency not to throw assumptions as you skulk out.
So is it the immigrants that are the problem or the extremists because as far as I have been able to work out they are not necessarily one and the same?
And I aint skulking out anywhere.
George Brims
06-Nov-07, 01:14
A workmate described Enoch Powell today as 'Britains greatest Patriot' I did not disagree.
Well you should have. Enoch Powell was no patriot. He was a self-serving mean spirited opportunist who saw the exploitation of the lowest forms of racist sentiment as his last chance at political power. He was already yesterday's news when he made that speech.
helenwyler
06-Nov-07, 18:59
Well you should have. Enoch Powell was no patriot. He was a self-serving mean spirited opportunist who saw the exploitation of the lowest forms of racist sentiment as his last chance at political power. He was already yesterday's news when he made that speech.
No disrespect to George...very good post.
But why, when he posted at 00.14 is it coming up on my PC as posted at 17.43?? And as a post I haven't read? Which I have.
As I type it is 17.45.
I've noticed this with other posts too:eek:.
Helen (confused).
No disrespect to George...very good post.
But why, when he posted at 00.14 is it coming up on my PC as posted at 17.43?? And as a post I haven't read? Which I have.
As I type it is 17.45.
I've noticed this with other posts too:eek:.
Helen (confused).
It is rather confusing isn't it.
This is a poll and it shows the time someone last voted as the time of a last post even if they don't write anything in the thread. It counts a vote as a post.
helenwyler
06-Nov-07, 20:39
Thank you fred...fount of much wisdom, as per usual:)!
I totally believe in FREEDOM of SPEECH and especially the HUMAN RIGHTS of the individual......................... BUT ...........
Is this Scotland in 2007?
Our lives are richer because of our multi-cultural society and we should embrace it, NOT make scapegoats out of others because the tabloid press fuels you into believing you live in a superioir country, are a superioir person and outsiders are going to 'spoil' it for you!
Many of the words that have been written in these posts are uniformed and bigoted. As a country we have always traded and travelled to other continents, how many Scots went to Austrailia & New Zeland, because they were driven from their own homes or sought a better life for their families!
There will alway's be a 'Enoch Powell' as there will always be a 'Nelson Mandella'. We live in a shrinking world, we are free to travel and work in other EEC countries. Welcome people, broaden your horizons, look at the benefits!
Just found this quote on another post, think it's apt:- "We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation" -- Voltaire
You may also like to look at the following site, and count your blessings.
www.amnesty.org.uk (http://www.amnesty.org.uk)
Many of the words that have been written in these posts are uniformed and bigoted. As a country we have always traded and travelled to other continents, how many Scots went to Austrailia & New Zeland, because they were driven from their own homes or sought a better life for their families!
It is strange that we applaud those that went to the Americasand Australasia to get a new life but we condemn the motives of them that went to Africa or India to get the same.
It is strange that we condemn them that come to our shores today for a better life but we applaud 'white flight' to Eastern Europe etc. with equal social problems in the country.
It is strange that we condemn Enoch Powell for being racist when he was one of the biggest critics of British Imperialism.
It is strange that Trevor Phillips, former chief of the Racial Equality Commission is now the biggest critic of multi-culturalism (the same criticism that Enoch Powell was making in the rivers of blood speech), and now has been compared with the BNP for doing so.
The world is completely barmy.
percy toboggan
06-Nov-07, 22:37
I just mentioned Enoch on another thread (Britz) not having noticed this one ...I'm delighted to see this vote going so well.
In truth he was a visionary - a brilliant but flawed man who had the misfortune to look as mad as a hatter with that glint in his eye.
He was a genius - not because of his views on immigrants , just a very clever, highly educated man.
That said, anyone with an ounce of common sense could have predicted the pitfalls of mass immigration. Even me. I've been banging on about it for several years. It's no longer taboo, it seems. Good.
percy toboggan
06-Nov-07, 22:39
Many of the words that have been written in these posts are uniformed and bigoted.
The 'B' word again :roll:
Anyway, who said soldiers and cops can't have opinions - parking wardens too ! :)
Boozeburglar
06-Nov-07, 22:47
It is strange that Trevor Phillips, former chief of the Racial Equality Commission is now the biggest critic of multi-culturalism (the same criticism that Enoch Powell was making in the rivers of blood speech), and now has been compared with the BNP for doing so.
You need to do a bit more reading.
You need to do a bit more reading.
Care to expand?:confused
Now, now, Rheghead, you are not supposed to read the speech in it's entirety and take the trouble to understand what was really said. You are only supposed to pick out the convenient sound bites that suit any claims of “racism” to silence any debate on the subject.
At no point in the speech did Enoch Powell claim there would be “Rivers of Blood” either here in Britain or anywhere else for that matter.
The connection between what he actually said on the subject and the usual knee-jerk reaction from certain quarters is like claiming somebody talking about “Nero fiddling whilst Rome Burned” hates musicians because they are alleging they are all “Maniacal Arsonists”.
When Enoch Powell made the speech he was anything but a “Yesterdays News”, he was, in fact, a serious contender for Edward Heath’s leadership of the Conservative Party and Heath simply jumped on the “shock – horror” bandwagon and used it as an excuse to dispose of a very serious rival.
To imply that Powell was just an empty-headed racist thug bent on grabbing power at any cost is too ridiculous for consideration.
The fact that he could take part on a live intellectual debate on live prime time TV (giving no opportunity for convenient editing), and give as good if not better, with somebody of the eminence of Malcolm Muggeridge demolishes that idea completely.
The speech is actually about having “controlled” immigration rather than a free-for-all, (now where have I heard that recently?), that there should be proper integration rather than separation, (now where have I heard that recently?), that having sections of the community who cannot converse at all in English is unacceptable, (now where have I heard that recently?), that those immigrants who have decided that they have made a mistake and no longer wish to remain should be enabled to return home or to move elsewhere if they desired by giving them financial assistance, (now where have I heard that recently) and that if the subject were ignored it would lead to disharmonyand distrust, (Now where have I heard that recently?).
Some of those suggestions have even been made by that extreme racist organisation called the Commission for Racial Equality besides being promised as Government Policy.
How shocking, how disgusting, how dare they? They should not be allowed to say such racist things!
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