View Full Version : Hallowe'en Questions
It may not surprise you to know that we don't plan on sending our kids out for hallowe'en at all. As a Christian, its not necessarily something to celebrate for us and so in order that our kids don't miss out on the fun, we simply provide alternatives for them. Tomorrow, we're taking our son out of school to provide an alternative for him to the Hallowe'en party.
Since coming back to Scotland this year after being away since 2003 I've been surprised to find out how much of a big thing hallowe'en has become. Whilst I don't believe there is anything wrong in kids dressing up, having fun, playing games etc, we chose not to focus our kids attentions on the darker side of things at all.
Was just wondering why you celebrate it? Have you ever considered an alternative to something that has potentially darker links with stuff? Are there any parents, not necessarily Christians, who don't let their kids get invovled for any reason?
Is it just that its good to have 'something' at this time of the year for kids and hallowe'en just happens to be it, or do people really go in for the whole meaning of it?
Also, just a question for those out there who are either anti-Christian/ anti-God. Does Hallowe'en not have the same 'traits' as you accuse Christianity of with all its bump-in-the-night stuff, supersticion and 'primitive' mindset? If it does, then I'm intrested to hear why there doesn't appear to be any critisism of it considering the many who like to have a pop at God or Christians :o)
Just wondering...I'm an inquisitive kinda guy. :o)
highlander4
30-Oct-07, 19:25
For my son it's nothing to do with the dark side of anything. It's just a night of fun where he gets to dress up as what he wants and gets to go and show people his costume.............oh and of course the sweeties. I think it's the same for most people i know. All just a bit of fun for the kids. :)
NickInTheNorth
30-Oct-07, 19:28
I don't approve of kids wandering the streets begging off the neighbours, so my kids will not be out tomorrow evening. They are however quite welcome to attend Halloween parties, and all of them have/are attending numerous parties.
Being an atheist I don't have any issues with Halloween from a religious perspective.
Undoubtedly there are similar issues regarding the superstitious and mythological nature of Halloween as there are with all the Christian and other religious festivals, but I try not to stop the kids having fun just for the sake of my non beliefs.
It may not surprise you to know that we don't plan on sending our kids out for hallowe'en at all. As a Christian, its not necessarily something to celebrate for us and so in order that our kids don't miss out on the fun, we simply provide alternatives for them. Tomorrow, we're taking our son out of school to provide an alternative for him to the Hallowe'en party.
Since coming back to Scotland this year after being away since 2003 I've been surprised to find out how much of a big thing hallowe'en has become. Whilst I don't believe there is anything wrong in kids dressing up, having fun, playing games etc, we chose not to focus our kids attentions on the darker side of things at all.
Was just wondering why you celebrate it? Have you ever considered an alternative to something that has potentially darker links with stuff? Are there any parents, not necessarily Christians, who don't let their kids get invovled for any reason?
Is it just that its good to have 'something' at this time of the year for kids and hallowe'en just happens to be it, or do people really go in for the whole meaning of it?
Also, just a question for those out there who are either anti-Christian/ anti-God. Does Hallowe'en not have the same 'traits' as you accuse Christianity of with all its bump-in-the-night stuff, supersticion and 'primitive' mindset? If it does, then I'm intrested to hear why there doesn't appear to be any critisism of it considering the many who like to have a pop at God or Christians :o)
Just wondering...I'm an inquisitive kinda guy. :o)
Samhain(sp) is the old celtic new year when the end of the old year is celebrated with the symbolic death of the God of Nature. His rebirth is celebrated at Christmas, the feast of Yule having been celebrated for centuries before Mithra and Christ decided to be born then. It is also believed that the veil separating the realm of life and the realm of death is at its thinest . I can see nothing evil or dark in the true meaning of Hallowe'en. As for the rest of the garbage that has become the accepted norm, it is only important to the kiddies and, more importantly, the merchants who have created the modern myth in order to sell rubbish.
Anyway, what can be more supersticious and primitive than the belief in the coming back to life of a Jewish martyr?
How proudly you wear your conditioning, proud Captain!!!!
highlander4
30-Oct-07, 19:29
I don't go to peoples houses that i don't know. It's mainly family and the few neighbours who have kids around about the same age and have agreed for the kids to visit each other. I have to agree with you NickInTheNorth, i don't like the idea of just anybody you don't know appearing at peoples doors
George Brims
30-Oct-07, 19:31
What I don't understand is why people who consider themselves Christians don't want to have anything to do with Hallowe'en? Surely Christianity and belief in good/evil spirits is a prerequisite to paying any attention to the festival in the first place? The name means the Eve of All Hallows (All Saints) day after all.
Now from my totally atheist point of view, I'll answer your question as to why a person such as me would have anything to do with Hallowe'en. Simply put, any excuse for a party, however thin, is better than none.
Now I'm off to buy a nice scary mask so I can scare as many weans away from the doorstep as possible so there's more sweeties left for me.
I don't approve of kids wandering the streets begging off the neighbours, so my kids will not be out tomorrow evening. They are however quite welcome to attend Halloween parties, and all of them have/are attending numerous parties.
Being an atheist I don't have any issues with Halloween from a religious perspective.
Undoubtedly there are similar issues regarding the superstitious and mythological nature of Halloween as there are with all the Christian and other religious festivals, but I try not to stop the kids having fun just for the sake of my non beliefs.
Yeah, in the same way I don't stop the kids having fun just for the sake of what I (we) do believe.
I think its perfectly possible to provide this kind of fun at this time of year without getting anywhere near the darker side. I suppose I'm just wondering why people don't brighten Hallowe'en up. Culture I suppose.
What I don't understand is why people who consider themselves Christians don't want to have anything to do with Hallowe'en? Surely Christianity and belief in good/evil spirits is a prerequisite to paying any attention to the festival in the first place? The name means the Eve of All Hallows (All Saints) day after all.
Now from my totally atheist point of view, I'll answer your question as to why a person such as me would have anything to do with Hallowe'en. Simply put, any excuse for a party, however thin, is better than none.
Now I'm off to buy a nice scary mask so I can scare as many weans away from the doorstep as possible so there's more sweeties left for me.
Yep, I love a good party myself George. I don't doubt at all that there has been an attempt with the All Saints day thing for the church in the past to Christianise the thing. Not sure myself it was something worth getting their underwear in a twist for, but there we go.
The issue I suppose is that, as you can see from Gleber's quote below, it has a different world view to Christianity and thats why we don't support it. Also, the present day non-sense about all the ghosts ghoullies and goblins make it something which is the anti-thesis of the Christian faith.
Samhain(sp) is the old celtic new year when the end of the old year is celebrated with the symbolic death of the God of Nature. His rebirth is celebrated at Christmas, the feast of Yule having been celebrated for centuries before Mithra and Christ decided to be born then. It is also believed that the veil separating the realm of life and the realm of death is at its thinest . I can see nothing evil or dark in the true meaning of Hallowe'en. As for the rest of the garbage that has become the accepted norm, it is only important to the kiddies and, more importantly, the merchants who have created the modern myth in order to sell rubbish.
Anyway, what can be more supersticious and primitive than the belief in the coming back to life of a Jewish martyr?
How proudly you wear your conditioning, proud Captain!!!!
Yes, I don't dispute any of the pagan roots of either Hallowe'en or Christmas. You'll realise that no sensible Christian beleives that Jesus was born on the 25th December, it is simply a hi-jacked pagan festival by the early church. However, for us we would want to celebrate Jesus birth anyway, so makes just as much sense to do it then as anywhere else.
I recognise Hallowe'en for what it is both then and today. I'm by no means scared about the harmles fun that kids do have, but we all have to admit that there are some who take it far, and the associations of this time of year to the occult are clearly there. I wasn't brought up in the church or a Christian home, so I had a good few Hallowe'ens growing up and I know what I got up to!
Your second last sentence, yes that was sort of my point. To the atheist/ anti-Chrisitan/God person there should be enough in halloween to send people reeling about the non-sense of it all, but people don't seem to be. I just find that interesting.
As for the modern myth, it is something I think that needs challenging as well as the modern Christmas hype.
Dont you think that by enforcing your beliefs on your children you are stoping them from becoming the person they should be?I have nothing at all against religion,I was brought up a good god fearing christian who regularly attended church,I also attended a free church bible class and also had connections with the SA, but I feel that by not allowing children to attend parties that they have been invited to or indeed have been arranged by their school, is unfair to the child and can also cause other children to believe that your child is different.Childhood is for fun,learning and interaction and a small halloween party is hardly going to decend in to a full blown devilworshipping orgy is it? I have very good friends one of whom is a minister and I quite often feel sorry for their kids as they are "volutarily excluded" from events like these and I feel that the child misses out for what the parent belives, IMO let the child (within reason) make their own choices as to whether or not they want to attend and when they are old enough to decide whether or not they want to follow your choices they will be grateful that you allowed them the freedom to discover what they want to believe in not what they are made to belive in.How many children celebrate easter but when asked what it means they say things like....chocolate eggs :eek: For children Halloween is harmless fun,for others it is what they choose to make it x
changilass
30-Oct-07, 21:14
Andrew I don't believe in god but it don't stop me having fun with the family at xmas - its one of the few times when most of the family can manage to get together and there is no school for the kids so a great reason to celebrate.
I think you are being unfair on your kids not allowing them to join in the fun. I went to school with a lassie who was a JW, she wanst allowed to go to the school xmas party, she cried her eyes out, all we did was eat yummy things and play games, I have remembered this vividly so how she remembers it is anyones guess, but it aint fair to take out your prejudices on your kids.
By and large, Halloween has nothing to do with anything these days. It is the same for Easter and Christmas. They are all festivals that have been hi-jacked and turned into a relentless commercial onslaught, Christmas in particular. If you are not partaking in a big way by piling your trolley high with baubles and trinkets, then you get labelled as Ebeneezer, bah humbug etc. It is a powerful vehicle that sweeps most people along, although some try to pretend that it is "Just for the bairns nowadays". I was on the train a couple of weeks ago and saw a woman carrying a Santa, covered in fairy lights, that must have been about 5 feet tall. The wifie was cooing to her pal "Ooh, I can't get over the size of this Santa". Fifty, going on five at that moment. Oh aye, it's just for the bairns!!
I like Christmas, mostly for the fact that it is one of the few times when Families feel obliged to make the effort to "touch base". Anything that encourages that has to be good in my mind. Outside of that it is totally overblown and is one of the most stressful times of the year. Halloween has never been a big deal for me and it only seems fairly recently that so much was made of it in the supermarkets and chain stores. It all seems to be pretty plastic, in all respects, now.
I never had any inclination to turn to the "dark side" at Halloween and never knew anyone else who slipped into the Devil's evil clutches after donning an old bed sheet with holes cut out for eyes, although I did see a boy "sacrifice" a turnip in a vain attempt to construct a lantern using a blunt butter knife.
Halloween? Religion? They both have association with Ghoulies in my mind ;)
Lets be honest the people who celebrate halloween by going around knocking on peoples doors expecting treats are, purely and simply copying one of the worst Americanisms. It has nothing to do with religion whatsoever and is particularly scary for older people targetted by mindless wayward kids.
To cite atheism as a reason to celebrate is totally ludicrous
Lets be honest the people who celebrate halloween by going around knocking on peoples doors expecting treats are, purely and simply copying one of the worst Americanisms. It has nothing to do with religion whatsoever and is particularly scary for older people targetted by mindless wayward kids.
To cite atheism as a reason to celebrate is totally ludicrous
Thanks for that munro...its always nice to be told that by allowing our children to be children and have some fun we are allowing them to be "mindless wayward kids" That really makes kids feel valued [disgust]The children who go out guisin' are at PRIMARY school and I for one havent seen any primary school kids "targeting" older people,infact my Mam is an "older person" abd she loves getting the wee ones at her door saying a wee poem or joke x
I never suggested that all kids come in that category and if parents accompany them it should'nt happen, but the fact is some kids who should not be out without parental company just make trouble and from what I read on the Org. Caithness is not without its share of problems with youths/kids.
I agree with you there munro and I apoligise if I came across too strongly before :( Older kids can be intimidating,but they would get upto the same bad behaviour whether or not it was Halloween.IMO its a time for the kids to have a bit of fun dressing up and going to friends and neighbours to do a "party piece" get a wee treat and just enjoy the night,nothing dark or sinister there just harmless fun...kinda like "firstfooting" for kids :) x
I like the atmosphere. I enjoyed guising as a kid and tomorrow night I reckon I'll watch a couple horror films in the dark with the sound up. It's all a bit of fun really. If you want to know my religion then I suppose I'm agnostic.
Isn't it just a bit of fun, what do kids know about the darker side of things? most of the costumes aren't even scary, it's about dressing up (which is fun) and getting some sweetie's. None of the kids in my street go out and I don't know any that come to the door but I don't see it as begging at all.
By and large, Halloween has nothing to do with anything these days. It is the same for Easter and Christmas. They are all festivals that have been hi-jacked and turned into a relentless commercial onslaught, Christmas in particular. If you are not partaking in a big way by piling your trolley high with baubles and trinkets, then you get labelled as Ebeneezer, bah humbug etc. It is a powerful vehicle that sweeps most people along, although some try to pretend that it is "Just for the bairns nowadays". I was on the train a couple of weeks ago and saw a woman carrying a Santa, covered in fairy lights, that must have been about 5 feet tall. The wifie was cooing to her pal "Ooh, I can't get over the size of this Santa". Fifty, going on five at that moment. Oh aye, it's just for the bairns!!
I like Christmas, mostly for the fact that it is one of the few times when Families feel obliged to make the effort to "touch base". Anything that encourages that has to be good in my mind. Outside of that it is totally overblown and is one of the most stressful times of the year. Halloween has never been a big deal for me and it only seems fairly recently that so much was made of it in the supermarkets and chain stores. It all seems to be pretty plastic, in all respects, now.
I never had any inclination to turn to the "dark side" at Halloween and never knew anyone else who slipped into the Devil's evil clutches after donning an old bed sheet with holes cut out for eyes, although I did see a boy "sacrifice" a turnip in a vain attempt to construct a lantern using a blunt butter knife.
Halloween? Religion? They both have association with Ghoulies in my mind ;)
Scorrie; many thanks for saving me a lot of typing! Eb Scrooge
Camel Spider
31-Oct-07, 00:14
Its just a bit of fun isnt it ??, but does anyone "dook for aipples" anymore ??
All the flats round me have kids but I dont think they stray to far on the 31st. Tomorrow night the tennants have a wee get together and judge the costumes, winner gets a prize. Last year there was a wee lad of about 6 or 7 who was dressed as a punk rocker. Last year he had ripped jeans and jacket with gelled up hair etc etc, best bit though was when he took out his ghettoblaster, kicked in White Wedding by Billy Idol and mimed away to the whole song .. he was awesome.
Apparently he is going as Elvis this year .. should be good.
Here we go again !!! Andrew C no disrepect to you and yours again !!!
what is the point of this thread as we already have one and people have viewed there opinions as I have
please just just enjoy each to there own i say
see Age for Halloween thread !!! I think we are all halloweeened out !!!!
Lets be honest the people who celebrate halloween by going around knocking on peoples doors expecting treats are, purely and simply copying one of the worst Americanisms. It has nothing to do with religion whatsoever and is particularly scary for older people targetted by mindless wayward kids.
To cite atheism as a reason to celebrate is totally ludicrousIf you know anything about our history and culture I'm surprised you would say 'the people who celebrate halloween by going around knocking on peoples doors expecting treats are, purely and simply copying one of the worst Americanisms.'
This is taken from the Rampant Scotland website:
In Modern Times
By the end of the 19th century Hallowe'en had become very much a festival for children. Dressing up and going "guising" is a tradition which has lasted to the present day. The original idea was to dress as spirits of the dead but options have widened over the years. When money was tight, dressing up in some old clothes from grandparents was all that was required. But witches (with broomsticks, cloaks and pointed black hats) have always been popular, with blackened faces harping back to the pagan days when the Druids may have smeared their faces with ash from their bonfires. Long before "trick or treat" children went round the houses and had to perform a poem or a song or tell jokes before receiving nuts, apples, sweets (candies). In recent years, concern about child safety has reduced the amount of "guising" and the children who do go out seem to think they should get something without having to do a "party piece".http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow_halloween.htm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.rampantscotland.com/know/blknow_halloween.htm)
Guising has absorbed some aspects of the American version but it's a native Scottish tradition.
Moi x
Here we go again !!! Andrew C no disrepect to you and yours again !!!
what is the point of this thread as we already have one and people have viewed there opinions as I have
please just just enjoy each to there own i say
see Age for Halloween thread !!! I think we are all halloweeened out !!!!He's evangelising. That's what they do. Simple really.
From the horse's mouth:
Mission statement
The Salvation Army is a worldwide evangelical Christian Church and human service agency.
Its message is based on the Bible; its motivation is the love of God as revealed in Jesus Christ.
Its mission is to proclaim his gospel, to persuade people of all ages to become his disciples and to engage in a programme of practical concern for the needs of humanity.
Its ministry is offered to all persons, regardless of race, creed, colour or gender.
The Salvation Army (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www1.salvationarmy.org.uk/uki/www_uki.nsf/vw-sublinks/5D35EC2B04BC515880256F1900494FA9?openDocument)
Moi x
I am not getting in to a discussion again about Religion or Halloween each to there own!!! all organisation do good works
Soup thread was good Andrew C
helenwyler
31-Oct-07, 02:01
I agree with everyone who's pointed out the Christian co-opting of this pagan festival, and the commercialisation of it too. I also admire all the parents who try to make this a fun and socially acceptable time for their kids and neighbours.
When I was a young village child in the 60s, I went to church twice on Sundays, mainly because of a desperate desire to get away from home:mad:! Few options for a child in those days. I'm an atheist now.
But the Methodist Chapel always held a Halloween Party. Apple Bobbing and Doughnut Dangling is what I remember...and the drinks served were Tizer and Orange Squash...we cautiously dubbed them Witch's Brew and Witch's Wee...a licence indulged in a straight-faced way by the Methodists.
We came out reeling with the aftermath of a fun-filled evening...or was it the effect of two hours in a smallish room heated with parrafin oil?
Those Methodists knew that most people don't really believe that ghouls were released on 31st October, and anyway, they had 364 days left of the year to strike the fear of god into us.
That's a long time ago. Some kids these days are doubtless influenced by modern commercialised versions of what Halloween is about...but that's not their fault. This is how it's presented to them via the media (often their main source of information), unless, like many excellent parents on this forum, they learn to see it differently.
Andrew C, 'withdrawing' your children may be the right thing to do in your mind, but remember, your children will be developing their own minds more and more as they grow up (God willing). There are so many examples of children who are brought up within strict religious confines, who later 'break out' in a spectacularly excessive way...you experienced Halloween in the conventional way, you say. Yet you became a Christian. Why are you so frightened then of allowing your children a bit of exciting, fun-filled nonsense?
BTW..I'm glad my yoga class isn't on a Wednesday;)!
DeHaviLand
31-Oct-07, 02:02
Here we go again !!! Andrew C no disrepect to you and yours again !!!
what is the point of this thread as we already have one and people have viewed there opinions as I have
please just just enjoy each to there own i say
see Age for Halloween thread !!! I think we are all halloweeened out !!!!
Nobody forced you to read it, and nobody has censored it, so I'm guessing its ok.
I'm assuming you read through this thread before you decided to criticise it and the OP. You say "each to their own" but would be so presumptious as to deny Andrew C the right to post perfectly reasonable questions. Something seems very strange there.
Aaldtimer
31-Oct-07, 04:32
Lets be honest the people who celebrate halloween by going around knocking on peoples doors expecting treats are, purely and simply copying one of the worst Americanisms. It has nothing to do with religion whatsoever and is particularly scary for older people targetted by mindless wayward kids.
To cite atheism as a reason to celebrate is totally ludicrous
What absolute nonsense. This has gone on long before there was an America!
What strikes me about this thread is the inability for some posters to be able to even spell the word, "superstition" , even the Sally man!
Sheesh!
It's a bit o' fun for the kids.
Why does religion have to be dragged into it? [evil]
SunnyChick
31-Oct-07, 11:36
D'ye know what? I think anything goes! You want to celebrate Halloween, Divali, Christmas, whatever.... I'm up for all of that. As long as no one straps a bomb on their back, there where is the harm in everyone joining in?
i was raised a southern baptist and they are hard core religion.. yet we had halloween parties and still do back home as i know my cousins will be going to the church later on. they still go trick or treating and its great fun
their is nothing evil about halloween in its origins. and my best friends growing up were JW and sadly they are now all atheist because of the way they were treated as children.
they were tortured in school.
every year.. they were ostrasized because they could not join in on celebrations. and the other children made fun of them, and ridiculed them..
mike smith dosent belive in christmas! so dont you belive that jesus was born at christmas! what kind of looser are you that you dont get presents... your a freak! you dont even have a birthday!
yeah and that was the nice things that were said.
my kids go door to door and trick or treat.. but i dont see it as begging. we buy more candy to hand out than we get thats for sure!
and i love giving out sweets!
It may not surprise you to know that we don't plan on sending our kids out for hallowe'en at all. As a Christian, its not necessarily something to celebrate for us and so in order that our kids don't miss out on the fun, we simply provide alternatives for them. Tomorrow, we're taking our son out of school to provide an alternative for him to the Hallowe'en party.
Since coming back to Scotland this year after being away since 2003 I've been surprised to find out how much of a big thing hallowe'en has become. Whilst I don't believe there is anything wrong in kids dressing up, having fun, playing games etc, we chose not to focus our kids attentions on the darker side of things at all.
Was just wondering why you celebrate it? Have you ever considered an alternative to something that has potentially darker links with stuff? Are there any parents, not necessarily Christians, who don't let their kids get invovled for any reason?
Is it just that its good to have 'something' at this time of the year for kids and hallowe'en just happens to be it, or do people really go in for the whole meaning of it?
Also, just a question for those out there who are either anti-Christian/ anti-God. Does Hallowe'en not have the same 'traits' as you accuse Christianity of with all its bump-in-the-night stuff, supersticion and 'primitive' mindset? If it does, then I'm intrested to hear why there doesn't appear to be any critisism of it considering the many who like to have a pop at God or Christians :o)
Just wondering...I'm an inquisitive kinda guy. :o)
As far as I am aware, the christian church has its roots in the old pagan religions of the middle east. Jesus just simply replaces another deity etc. Again, the church superimposed itself on another pagan religion in western europe but still retaining the basic elements or rituals. In other words, christianity is just another pagan religion where the feasts take place at the times of the pagan feasts. Even the Bible lends the idea that God has a multitude of personality traits to suit different situations ,which mirrors polytheism.
Enjoy your day, but (no matter how you make your excuses,) you are just simply celebrating another form of a hedonistic pagan festival in the same way as others are doing.
Wow, what an amazing amount of different opinions on the old halloween and various holidays chestnut!
I wonder are there any religious people out there who might care what God's opinion on it all might be?
Would you be willing to change your opinion if God disagreed with you?
I found this on a Christian website and it puts it better than I could...
"Despite our strong stance and disagreement with them, we certainly would support the right of Wiccans and pagans to celebrate their religion's feast days unmolested. They are citizens and human beings whose religious convictions should be respected in civility. But such respect should not be viewed as agreement with their pagan belief! Tolerance does NOT equal compromise. We view paganism as a misguided spiritual dead-end that involves occultic practices that clearly displease God and exalt demonic power. And pagans deserve to hear about the majestic power and sovereignty of God from our godly lives, our communication of the Gospel of Christ and our neighborly recognition of them as fellow citizens and human beings. However, if pagans want to persist in the pursuit of a myth that in the end leads nowhere, their right to do so should be respected just as surely as we Christians would expect our rights to be respected in holding to our beliefs.
Spreading The Word About Halloween: Instead of simply blasting Halloween as "the devil's night", Christians should earnestly set about providing "an answer to every man" who would need to hear about the need to avoid any involvement with the darker side of the day. Reasons - not railings - are the need of the hour for the church. Pastors and other church leaders need to be involved directly in spreading soundly balanced and Biblical admonitions for the Christians they are in leadership of to be aware of Halloween's spiritual snares. The sheer amount of misinformation about the occult alone is a major problem that garbles clear communication. Add to this the temptation to evangelical smugness about being "in the light" and a miltantly witch-hunting posture and the task of intelligent dialogue about the dangers of Halloween becomes almost impossible. Encouraging others to avoid Halloween's occult snares to please God out of love for His direction should be done in the right spirit, out of love for their spiritual condition, yet with passion tempered by humility and a commitment to truth.
Shabbychic
31-Oct-07, 15:52
Why can't people just do their own thing and stop trying to put their beliefs onto others. If you don't want to celebrate Halloween that's fine, but if you do, that's fine too. It's an individual choice on what is right for you and nothing to do with anyone else.
Dont you think that by enforcing your beliefs on your children you are stoping them from becoming the person they should be?I have nothing at all against religion,I was brought up a good god fearing christian who regularly attended church,I also attended a free church bible class and also had connections with the SA, but I feel that by not allowing children to attend parties that they have been invited to or indeed have been arranged by their school, is unfair to the child and can also cause other children to believe that your child is different.Childhood is for fun,learning and interaction and a small halloween party is hardly going to decend in to a full blown devilworshipping orgy is it? I have very good friends one of whom is a minister and I quite often feel sorry for their kids as they are "volutarily excluded" from events like these and I feel that the child misses out for what the parent belives, IMO let the child (within reason) make their own choices as to whether or not they want to attend and when they are old enough to decide whether or not they want to follow your choices they will be grateful that you allowed them the freedom to discover what they want to believe in not what they are made to belive in.How many children celebrate easter but when asked what it means they say things like....chocolate eggs :eek: For children Halloween is harmless fun,for others it is what they choose to make it x
True, for many kids Halloween is harmless and there are plenty of sensible parents out there and all the rest. Everyone brings their children up according to their own ways and beliefs, as do I. Not every Christian would do the same, although I do know other families in Wick whose children are at home today.
My son is at home this afternoon having a great time playing games with mum, so he's definetely not missing out. Its not a decision we made lightly but the final decision was made on Sunday night where my 5 year old wouldn't go to sleep because all the Halloween talk at school up to that point had him convinced that there were ghosts in the cupboard.
If you met my son, you'd have no reason to think that he was a deprived child in the slightest, in fact he's confident, out going and as lively as the next lad. Its rather a prejudiced view to think that because we have a Christian home we all wander around bored with big bibles and sandals with socks all days. No...instead we wear funny Sally Army hats, uniforms, and wave flags instead...we learn the trumpet, play tambourines, eat our dinner like we were at a homeless feeding programme and drink our hot chocolate out of collecting tins before retiring to bed with the good old War Cry.
With regards to rules at home, I know many parents whose line is 'when you're under my roof, you'll do it my way' or something to that affect, and that is faith or no faith. When my children are old enough to make their own decisions, they will be allowed to. Up until then, I am their father and its my responsibility to raise them as I see best. Don't we all do that? As a father, I am bringing my children up to be the people I think they should be. If they decide thats not for them, then they will do what they please eventually. I'll love them just the same.
I don't really expect people to understand our reasons for not letting our kids take part and I'm in no way suggestion that you do the same, I was simply asking why it was popular and the common answer is 'its fun for the kids.' I suppose my point is that its just as easy to have the fun without scaring the kids witless or opening up the world of the occult to them in that way.
Andrew I don't believe in god but it don't stop me having fun with the family at xmas - its one of the few times when most of the family can manage to get together and there is no school for the kids so a great reason to celebrate.
I think you are being unfair on your kids not allowing them to join in the fun. I went to school with a lassie who was a JW, she wanst allowed to go to the school xmas party, she cried her eyes out, all we did was eat yummy things and play games, I have remembered this vividly so how she remembers it is anyones guess, but it aint fair to take out your prejudices on your kids.
Hi...I've covered some of your points above. Sure, many people celebrate Christmas...I have done myself for 27 years and I've only been a Christian for 12 of those. Its more than a time for family for us though, and the Christian aspect of Christmas is always more prevalent. We celebrate it because its a Christian focal point, but Hallowe'en isnt. As I've said, there are many things with it which don't match with the Christian ethos so we just don't do it...simple as that. The difference with Christmas is that I presume that even although you may not believe, you don't see any potential harm, so its fine. For me, there is potential negative things in there with Halloween so I make the choice to protect my children from it...one day they will make their own choice.
Incidentally, we don't go the whole hog with Christmas either...we still have a great time, our family get together and its a special time for the kids as well as the adults, the focus of it is just....well, different for us. We celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ by sharing gifts, singing about it, sharing a special meal and by caring for others. My children and I will havea great time on Christmas morning singing carols to those who are ill in the Caithness General Hospital on Christmas morning.
Here we go again !!! Andrew C no disrepect to you and yours again !!!
what is the point of this thread as we already have one and people have viewed there opinions as I have
please just just enjoy each to there own i say
see Age for Halloween thread !!! I think we are all halloweeened out !!!!
My quote was simply to ask why people celebrated it. The answer is 'its fun for the kids.' The second reason for it was to highligh the prejudice in some orgers who as soon as a Christian topic appears, will have a good old pop at it but something like Halloween comes along and no one questions it at all. You say you are an 'each to their own person' but yet on several occassion you've had difficulty hearing my view. Perhaps what you mean is 'each to their own, but if its different to me, I don't want to hear it.' ?
He's evangelising. That's what they do. Simple really.
From the horse's mouth:
Mission statement
The Salvation Army is a worldwide evangelical Christian Church and human service agency.
Its message is based on the Bible; its motivation is the love of God as revealed in Jesus Christ.
Its mission is to proclaim his gospel, to persuade people of all ages to become his disciples and to engage in a programme of practical concern for the needs of humanity.
Its ministry is offered to all persons, regardless of race, creed, colour or gender. The Salvation Army (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www1.salvationarmy.org.uk/uki/www_uki.nsf/vw-sublinks/5D35EC2B04BC515880256F1900494FA9?openDocument)
Moi x
Thanks for the plug! :) We're all about God, his love, his salvation, about caring for others, offering that care to all. Its the reason I get up in the morning. I'd be a fool to believe I had discovered good news and didn't want to share it.
Why can't people just do their own thing and stop trying to put their beliefs onto others. If you don't want to celebrate Halloween that's fine, but if you do, that's fine too. It's an individual choice on what is right for you and nothing to do with anyone else.
Did you read the article?
"Encouraging others to avoid Halloween's occult snares to please God out of love for His direction should be done in the right spirit, out of love for their spiritual condition, yet with passion tempered by humility and a commitment to truth."
I am doing it in the right spirit, out of love and concern. God has always allowed people to "do their own thing" and I do too, but being a Christian involves evangelising, and that is all I am doing. Are the ones promoting Halloween not "putting their beliefs" onto me??
Are the ones promoting Halloween not "putting their beliefs" onto me??
Can you tell me what those 'beliefs' are?
Hi everyone. Just flying in here to wish you all a Happy Hallowe'en whatever your beliefs are.
Where's Crayola when we need her? ;)
Hi everyone. Just flying in here to wish you all a Happy Hallowe'en whatever your beliefs are.
Where's Crayola when we need her? ;)
Giving flying lessons to wonky witches Moira [lol]
Giving flying lessons to wonky witches Moira [lol]
Well her flight must have been delayed Golach. Too late for me now I'm afraid [lol]
Giving flying lessons to wonky witches Moira [lol]
I bet the obstacle was a sign from God though...:Razz
I bet the obstacle was a sign from God though...:Razz
ROFLMAO!Nice one Rhegs! x
Can you tell me what those 'beliefs' are?
Yes, the belief that Halloween is harmless.
Shabbychic
31-Oct-07, 18:00
Did you read the article?
"Encouraging others to avoid Halloween's occult snares to please God out of love for His direction should be done in the right spirit, out of love for their spiritual condition, yet with passion tempered by humility and a commitment to truth."
I am doing it in the right spirit, out of love and concern. God has always allowed people to "do their own thing" and I do too, but being a Christian involves evangelising, and that is all I am doing. Are the ones promoting Halloween not "putting their beliefs" onto me??
I was making no reference to any particular post, but the topic in general.
I didn't read any posts about promoting Halloween, just some stating what they choose to do.
Evangelising out of love and concern is great as long as the recipient wishes guidance, but it is wrong to force this love and concern onto those who do not wish to participate in a particular belief system, nor use it to dictate to others what they should or should not do. Can't you just love and care for others unconditionally?
I myself don't celebrate Halloween, but that is my choice, and should in no way interfere in what others have the right to do.
Yes, the belief that Halloween is harmless.
Halloween is harmless. Isn't it?:confused
Sorry if I have come across too heavy...it's difficult to get the right tone over wif typing. I never meant to offend. Of course everyone is entitled to do their own thing. God loves you anyway, regardless of your need of His love.
xx
cullbucket
31-Oct-07, 18:29
It may not surprise you to know that we don't plan on sending our kids out for hallowe'en at all. As a Christian, its not necessarily something to celebrate for us and so in order that our kids don't miss out on the fun, we simply provide alternatives for them. Tomorrow, we're taking our son out of school to provide an alternative for him to the Hallowe'en party.
Well I suppose if there were enough people who thought like you, then the schools would have no option but to cancel their halloween party.... As an atheist, I have no problem filling my kids heads with halloween, tooth fairies, easter bunnies, Christmas, etc. and have no problem with other people filling their heads with god, religion, easter, Diwali etc. Let them join in with everything and as they get older they will filter the real from the imaginary themselves - whatever makes them happy....
Are you sure the sally army is not linked to the free church, sounds more up their alley....
God loves you anyway, regardless of your need of His love.
xx
What is God's love?:confused
Well I suppose if there were enough people who thought like you, then the schools would have no option but to cancel their halloween party.... As an atheist, I have no problem filling my kids heads with halloween, tooth fairies, easter bunnies, Christmas, etc. and have no problem with other people filling their heads with god, religion, easter, Diwali etc. Let them join in with everything and as they get older they will filter the real from the imaginary themselves - whatever makes them happy....
Are you sure the sally army is not linked to the free church, sounds more up their alley....
I believe that ultimately everyone decides what they will believe. My kids have their whole life to do that but I feel it my duty as a Christian parent to share what I believe with them. I am their father after all. We all do the same with our children. You believe that you let them join in with everything and so thats what you do. I don't, so I don't! :)
The Salvation Army just take the bible, our faith and God seriously. We're Christians like many others. Thanks for your comment
I myself don't celebrate Halloween, but that is my choice, and should in no way interfere in what others have the right to do.
Just wanted to point out that I was asking why people celebrated it and the general concensus is that its fun for the kids, which is what I expected. I just wanted to raise the possibility in some peoples mind that there is a way to give the kids a good time without opening the door to potentially dangerous occultic practice. Speaking from the experience of my own childhod. Didn't insist that everyone does what we do, thats our choice, but just wondering if there was a fundamental belief in the whole Hallowe'en thing, or whether it was just a good excuse for a party (which we all like, if we're honest...even in the Sally Army!!)
Thanks for your post
Andrew
I just wanted to raise the possibility in some peoples mind that there is a way to give the kids a good time without opening the door to potentially dangerous occultic practice.
Firstly, I don't know if the occult is anymore dangerous than christian practices, at least the mainstream but that applies to both.
Secondly, the occult is part of British history. It is also very much part of the writings in the Bible. So if you want to open the door to occult practices to children then there is no better introduction than reading the Bible or sending them to school to learn history.
But if you are going to create a 'contrived nice alternative' to Halloween then children's curiosity about what you are hiding will give them enough reason to learn what real Halloween is all about.
cullbucket
31-Oct-07, 20:21
I believe that ultimately everyone decides what they will believe. My kids have their whole life to do that but I feel it my duty as a Christian parent to share what I believe with them. I am their father after all. We all do the same with our children.
Actually I don't do the same with my kids, I don't force my beliefs on them as I believe that is a kind of brainwashing. I can guarantee that if I was forcing militant atheism on them then they would end up being religious as anything. When there are 2 or more sides to an argument / belief etc. I give them both sides and tell them that some people believe one thing and others another... I tell them what my opinion is, but qualify it by saying other people have other opinions / beliefs. This way they can relate to concepts / comfort blankets like heaven, god etc. that others reference and come to a conclusion later on what it all really means...
cuddlepop
31-Oct-07, 20:27
Actually I don't do the same with my kids, I don't force my beliefs on them as I believe that is a kind of brainwashing. I can guarantee that if I was forcing militant atheism on them then they would end up being religious as anything. When there are 2 or more sides to an argument / belief etc. I give them both sides and tell them that some people believe one thing and others another... I tell them what my opinion is, but qualify it by saying other people have other opinions / beliefs. This way they can relate to concepts / comfort blankets like heaven, god etc. that others reference and come to a conclusion later on what it all really means...
At last someone is talking sense.:D
cullbucket
31-Oct-07, 20:37
I guess what I am trying to do is promote independent thought and to teach that any information they receive has to be qualified by it's source. Just because daddy, the vicar, the prime minister or president says it is so does not mean that is true or right..... I would say that would leave the kids better prepared for life than accepting any dogma or authoritarian doublespeak shoved their way....
Just wanted to point out that I was asking why people celebrated it and the general concensus is that its fun for the kids, which is what I expected. I just wanted to raise the possibility in some peoples mind that there is a way to give the kids a good time without opening the door to potentially dangerous occultic practice. Speaking from the experience of my own childhod. Didn't insist that everyone does what we do, thats our choice, but just wondering if there was a fundamental belief in the whole Hallowe'en thing, or whether it was just a good excuse for a party (which we all like, if we're honest...even in the Sally Army!!)
Thanks for your post
Andrew
I don't celebrate it now for the simple reason that most of the kids in our family are grown up and the ones who are still kids are doing their guising in their own immediate neighbourhoods. I still buy in some treats every year, as usual, for anyone who cares to knock at my door though. The numbers have dwindled as the years go on.
You're absolutely right Andrew - my childhood experiences of dressing up for Hallowe'en, visiting some neighbours & friends, quoting a few lines of poetry or singing a wee song for them, dooking for apples, trying to grab a bite of treacle bannock suspended from the ceiling and munching "real" toffee apples seriously scarred me for life. It opened the door for me to indulge in dangerous occultic practices like flying around Caithness.org trying to raise a smile here & there today. I blame my parents ;)
Actually I don't do the same with my kids, I don't force my beliefs on them as I believe that is a kind of brainwashing. I can guarantee that if I was forcing militant atheism on them then they would end up being religious as anything. When there are 2 or more sides to an argument / belief etc. I give them both sides and tell them that some people believe one thing and others another... I tell them what my opinion is, but qualify it by saying other people have other opinions / beliefs. This way they can relate to concepts / comfort blankets like heaven, god etc. that others reference and come to a conclusion later on what it all really means...
I am with you on this thinking. I don't tell my kids anything, one way or the other, regarding religion. I simply let them make their own minds up. When you look at it, kids can resent things that are forced upon them and can be very curious about things that you seem to be hiding from them. I guide them in the basics and leave them to decide what they want to make of this life, which offers so many choices and possibilities.
To my mind, there has been no book written that can, or will, steer anyone along the perfect path. Life is all about making mistakes and, hopefully, learning from them. We are all born knowing nothing whatsoever and we can only hope that when our mistakes come, they are not mistakes which we can never overcome.
Halloween is all about ancient legend, symbols and the overactive imagination. A bit like religion really.
It may not surprise you to know that we don't plan on sending our kids out for hallowe'en at all. As a Christian, its not necessarily something to celebrate for us and so in order that our kids don't miss out on the fun, we simply provide alternatives for them. Tomorrow, we're taking our son out of school to provide an alternative for him to the Hallowe'en party.
Since coming back to Scotland this year after being away since 2003 I've been surprised to find out how much of a big thing hallowe'en has become. Whilst I don't believe there is anything wrong in kids dressing up, having fun, playing games etc, we chose not to focus our kids attentions on the darker side of things at all.
Was just wondering why you celebrate it? Have you ever considered an alternative to something that has potentially darker links with stuff? Are there any parents, not necessarily Christians, who don't let their kids get invovled for any reason?
Is it just that its good to have 'something' at this time of the year for kids and hallowe'en just happens to be it, or do people really go in for the whole meaning of it?
Also, just a question for those out there who are either anti-Christian/ anti-God. Does Hallowe'en not have the same 'traits' as you accuse Christianity of with all its bump-in-the-night stuff, supersticion and 'primitive' mindset? If it does, then I'm intrested to hear why there doesn't appear to be any critisism of it considering the many who like to have a pop at God or Christians :o)
Just wondering...I'm an inquisitive kinda guy. :o)
Sorry to include your whole post in the quote.
Every Christian holiday has a "Pagan" origin behind it. The church found it would be difficult to deprive people of their celebrations and instead chose to hijack them. Halloween is no exception, being a celebration of the end (death?) of harvest/summer and making ready for the long dark-winter(samhain?). The Christian belief hijacked this festivity to make it into the day of rememberance of the dead, which in my opinion, is not negative.
In Mexico families will go to the cememtary to celebrate with their dead relatives, in a way reuniting the whole family, including those that are no longer with them. We call today "All Saints Day" in Portugal- for those departed.
The ghosts and goblins walking the streets today just reflect a mixture of the old magical beliefs and christian remembering of the dead. I do not think either are anti-christian or anti God. Infact, in a way, considering that many dress as ghosts and skeletons, probably it is a more accurate reflection of the christian side than the pagan.
I don't think that there are any links to "darker stuff". All living creatures have a life and die. It's just part of a cycle, that can in a light way be expressed at halloween.
Do you feel as strongly about Christmas, exclusively celebrating the birth of Christ and excluding Saint Nicholaus, the Christmas tree, ect?
I made up 48 bags today for the guisers....by 7.00pm I had run out!:( eneded up passing out biscuits to the poor wee ones who arrived after I had run out,it seems to me halloween is still very much celebrated!;) x
Thanks for the plug! :) We're all about God, his love, his salvation, about caring for others, offering that care to all. Its the reason I get up in the morning. I'd be a fool to believe I had discovered good news and didn't want to share it.It was meant to be an explanation rather than a plug but thanks for your thanks anyway! :)
Moi x
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