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nanoo
18-Oct-07, 12:53
i thought i'd let folks who are interested know that there is a programme on channel 4 tonight at 9 o'clock about the abduction of the little girl. A team of 5 of the UK's best criminal investigators travel to Praia da Luz to detail how they would have responded to Madeleine mcCanns disappearance. They are all retired now but were experts in their own field of work. The man leading the team was in command of the Soham murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, and was responsible for the arrest of Ian Huntley. According to todays press, the 5 man group have said they found the portuguese police completely inadeqate to deal with the situation. It will be interesting to hear what they have to say about the whole thing.;)

paris
18-Oct-07, 13:04
Thanks for that ! jan x

Ash
18-Oct-07, 13:07
i thought i'd let folks who are interested know that there is a programme on channel 4 tonight at 9 o'clock about the abduction of the little girl. A team of 5 of the UK's best criminal investigators travel to Praia da Luz to detail how they would have responded to Madeleine mcCanns disappearance. They are all retired now but were experts in their own field of work. The man leading the team was in command of the Soham murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman, and was responsible for the arrest of Ian Huntley. According to todays press, the 5 man group have said they found the portuguese police completely inadeqate to deal with the situation. It will be interesting to hear what they have to say about the whole thing.;)


hey thanks for reminding me as i want to watch this tonight, still cant believe she hasnt been found,:~( very interested in this case.

Ash
18-Oct-07, 22:07
oh my god!

watched this thinking why didnt the portugese police do more?

they didnt check bins? drains

for heavens sake its a four year old child:~(

jinglejangle
18-Oct-07, 22:20
i didn't think programme up to much at all - no hard evidence - going on hear-say and what been in papers. Also as they couldn't get Porteguese police to comment we don't know what has been done in the search or not. was very disappointed with the programme - thought they would have shed some more information rather than what we have been reading in tabloids since 4 May.

katarina
18-Oct-07, 22:28
All they did was point out the failings of the portugese police. Nothing new here. I was disappointed too - hoped they could come up with some new leads. Poor little girl - I think about her every night.

Ash
18-Oct-07, 22:29
i didn't think programme up to much at all - no hard evidence - going on hear-say and what been in papers. Also as they couldn't get Porteguese police to comment we don't know what has been done in the search or not. was very disappointed with the programme - thought they would have shed some more information rather than what we have been reading in tabloids since 4 May.


i totally disagree, i thought the programme was done really well, considering these men werent allowed access to certain parts of the apartments the mcanns stayed in, we were hardly going to find out anything major, but in away i think that we did, it has now been made clear that the portugese police didnt search the area properly - the media were far to involved so if there was any hope of her being found i think they have stopped that happening - will be interesting to see the results of the dna.

i got a shiver down my spine at the end when the narrator said how many days she had been missing and was pretty much to the minute

crayola
18-Oct-07, 22:33
I was a little disappointed too but I've been following the case more closely than most so I'm not surprised I didn't learn much. I did however manage a wry smile when they showed tabloids with essentially contradictory headlines (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=275121#post275121) and went on to suggest that the media might be making it up as they went along. They also suggested that the police were less than thorough in both their organisation and methods. I remain less than optimistic that the wee lassie will ever be found. :~(

Ash, you haven't been following the case carefully if you learned a lot.

JAWS
19-Oct-07, 07:25
With the number of "experts" who seem to know exactly how the Portuguese Police should have had this all sorted out by now I'm surprised we have any unsolved crimes at all in Britain.

Mr P Cannop
19-Oct-07, 08:26
will this prog be on again ??

paris
19-Oct-07, 08:52
nanoo, Please dont shout at me.....I forgot AGAIN !! :lol:lol jan xx
as mr p says is it on again ??

jinglejangle
19-Oct-07, 16:41
i totally disagree, i thought the programme was done really well, considering these men werent allowed access to certain parts of the apartments the mcanns stayed in, we were hardly going to find out anything major, but in away i think that we did, it has now been made clear that the portugese police didnt search the area properly - the media were far to involved so if there was any hope of her being found i think they have stopped that happening - will be interesting to see the results of the dna.

i got a shiver down my spine at the end when the narrator said how many days she had been missing and was pretty much to the minute

thats good that you thought the programme really well done - I have followed the case closely from day one as I like everyone else wants Madeleine found safe and well - however I could have gone over to Portugal and told you the possible escape routes from the flat - its not rocket science! also with regard to the searches it was stated from day one that the porteguese police did not carry out proper searches - just not enough manpower and that the volunteers were kind offering their time but were not given any brief as to what to look for.

i didn't think we would learn anything much more than we knew or the papers would have had hold of it but everything they said was in the papers or hear-say just like you and i could say she may have been abducted or not! no further on!

Rheghead
19-Oct-07, 17:08
I didn't see the documentary, but how could it give an accurate account of the portugese police investigation if they say nothing to the press?

Ash
19-Oct-07, 17:09
ok they arent further on,but as i have never considered the escape routes i was interesting to see, im sorry if i didnt know how a padeophile would know how to abduct a child:confused

Julia
19-Oct-07, 17:24
It's a bit late now but how on earth could they leave children asleep that far from the restaurant, they could not even see the door or steps to the apartment from their table, as they said last night somebody could easily have walked out with her and up the lane to the car park. They stated last night that the sliding doors to the apartment were also left unlocked.

IMHO I think they left the doors unlocked to make it look like an abduction, I'm 99% convinced the parents are to blame for her disappearance and she was not abducted at all. I doubt she will never be seen again.

scorrie
19-Oct-07, 18:22
I'm 99% convinced the parents are to blame for her disappearance and she was not abducted at all.

And what evidence are you basing this level of certainty on?

I haven't seen a Hunch that big since a guy was swinging about the bell tower of Notre Dame yelling "Ethmerelllda"

porshiepoo
20-Oct-07, 10:41
And what evidence are you basing this level of certainty on?

I haven't seen a Hunch that big since a guy was swinging about the bell tower of Notre Dame yelling "Ethmerelllda"


Doesn't matter what evidence it is based on, it's an opinion is all! Would you be asking the same question if Julia had said she was 99% convinced the parents hadn't done it?????????????

I personally thought the programme was quite interesting. I really didn't realise just how easy it would have been for someone to have gotten her away without being seen. I thought the shutter theory was a bit far fetched though cos there's no way that someone would lift the shutter with their thumbs in that position or so close together surely!
If someone had sourced the child and taken her when they knew it was safe I personally think they would have been more likely to take the babes or at least all of them.
Here's a couple of theories I thought about going by that documentary 1) It was a burglar that woke Maddy and he/she ended up having to take her because she may have recognised them. 2) Maddy woke up and went outside to look for parents and an opportunist snatched her. 3) Parents gave her sleeping pills to keep her asleep and accidentally killed her.

Will we ever know? I doubt it! The first 24 hours were the most critical and the portugese police handled the whole thing badly. Bins were still emptied that night, drains weren't checked etc etc. The whole thing was a botch from beginning to end.
The only real 'fact' we know for definate in this case is that Maddys parents let her down and this whole sorry event could have been avoided. But let's not dwell on that hey, after all they don't seem to be being held accountable for it - not in this life anyway!

northener
20-Oct-07, 11:12
Perhaps the Portugese police could employ the 'Psychic Investigators' that are so highly thought of in this country.......

scorrie
20-Oct-07, 13:14
Doesn't matter what evidence it is based on, it's an opinion is all! Would you be asking the same question if Julia had said she was 99% convinced the parents hadn't done it?????????????



We have to work on a the assumption that people are innocent until proved guilty. Julia's statement is beyond a mere opinion, it verges on libel. In any case, an opinion that is based on a mere hunch, is an opinion worth very little.

I think I am within my right to express THAT opinion based on your definition. Would you be OK with Julia making the decision on the Guilt or lack thereof of one of your family members, based on the same "Hunch" methodology?

I rest my case!!

scorrie
20-Oct-07, 13:18
Perhaps the Portugese police could employ the 'Psychic Investigators' that are so highly thought of in this country.......

Plenty have offered their services. I came across one such couple a few days ago, will try to post the link later so that you can judge their credentials!!

porshiepoo
20-Oct-07, 14:07
We have to work on a the assumption that people are innocent until proved guilty. Julia's statement is beyond a mere opinion, it verges on libel. In any case, an opinion that is based on a mere hunch, is an opinion worth very little.

I think I am within my right to express THAT opinion based on your definition. Would you be OK with Julia making the decision on the Guilt or lack thereof of one of your family members, based on the same "Hunch" methodology?

I rest my case!!

To be honest I think I would accept the fact that a case like this is going to attract opinions and speculation of all kinds. I'd be thinking that the whole time people are willing to express opinions of any kind means that the story is being kept to the forefront of peoples minds and I wouldn't be too fussed about the methods of it being there.
Finding the truth always starts off as someones hunch anyway!

Hunch away I say!!!!!!!!!!!!

ashaw1
20-Oct-07, 14:11
I really can't make up my mind what i think about this case. But to be totally honest i think it will be one of these cases that will never be resolved.

nanoo
20-Oct-07, 14:20
Hi, according to press reports today saturday 20th, the forensic results are in for drugs being used to keep the children asleep on that night. They came back Negative, so ending the speculation that Maddie died of an overdose and the parents covered it all up. If this is true it sure looks like an abdution after all eh. [disgust]

porshiepoo
20-Oct-07, 14:22
Perhaps the Portugese police could employ the 'Psychic Investigators' that are so highly thought of in this country.......


LOL. I assume that was a very tongue in cheek remark however I have just had this same conversation with a friend (As we walked in Rumster Forest on this gorgeous day) and we were both saying that we would both be thinking of along those lines already.
I personally would definately be enlisting the help of a psychic detective. I'd also be doing a hell of a lot more besides.

I don't think I would have been able to leave the country either. There may have come the time when I would have sent hubby home with the remaining kids but I don't think I could have left the country, certainly not until I felt that I myself had exhausted every avenue of possible hiding / dumping grounds.
I would still be knocking door to door, I'd be combing the beaches, I'd be checking out all those pipe lines, the refuse site etc etc and I'd be doing it by any means possible.
Personally I don't think the McCanns have done nearly enough to look for Maddy themselves. Meeting with the pope, going to church once a week and sporting Maddys teddy in a rucksack does absolutely nothing.
They have means at their disposal to take advantage of, especially during the early days, I'd have been doing that and alot more besides.

Perhaps Maddys parents are completely innocent and know nothing of Maddy's whereabouts, perhaps they've done searches from dawn to dusk, perhaps they've enlisted the help of everyone they can think of, perhaps they've exhausted every media avenue they can with pleas of help, perhaps they've even sincerely expressed their guilt at the situation they put Maddy in and have been held accountable for that. Perhaps they've done all that and more besides, I just haven't seen it and until I do I will express my opinion the same as Julia. IMO there is a very high chance that Maddys parents are guilty of murder.

porshiepoo
20-Oct-07, 14:26
Hi, according to press reports today saturday 20th, the forensic results are in for drugs being used to keep the children asleep on that night. They came back Negative, so ending the speculation that Maddie died of an overdose and the parents covered it all up. If this is true it sure looks like an abdution after all eh. [disgust]

How so?
How can there be any forensic report that says that drugs were definately not used on Maddy when Maddy herself hasn't been tested.

nanoo
20-Oct-07, 14:33
According to speculation early in the case, the local police thought all three kids were drugged to insure they did'nt go wandering around when the parents were out. At that time the press said the twins were tested to see if any remnants could be found. I'm assuming if they were clear, then so would maddie be.I'm only telling you what i read this morning in the papers.

porshiepoo
20-Oct-07, 14:38
According to speculation early in the case, the local police thought all three kids were drugged to insure they did'nt go wandering around when the parents were out. At that time the press said the twins were tested to see if any remnants could be found. I'm assuming if they were clear, then so would maddie be.I'm only telling you what i read this morning in the papers.

I've just taken a look on the net and yes it does say that the twins have tested negative.

However, it never entered my head that there would have been a need to sedate the twins as I assumed that they had been in cots and couldn't have gotten up and wandered about had they woken.
Maddy is slightly different in that again I assumed she would have been in a bed and as such could have wandered about had she woken up.

Unfortunately I don't think we'll ever know the whole truth. We can only hope that wherever Maddy is she's at peace.

Ricco
20-Oct-07, 15:16
According to speculation early in the case, the local police thought all three kids were drugged to insure they did'nt go wandering around when the parents were out. At that time the press said the twins were tested to see if any remnants could be found. I'm assuming if they were clear, then so would maddie be.I'm only telling you what i read this morning in the papers.

Perhaps this is a clear statement about how local parents deal with their kids whilst the parents are out? Perhaps it is the norm in Portugal?

connieb19
20-Oct-07, 15:29
If this is true it sure looks like an abdution after all eh. [disgust]Not only is there no evidence of an abduction and no trace of an abductor, we only have the parents word for this. As far as I am concerned the parents have alredy lied by saying the appartment was in line of sight, it was like dining in your garden ect, so it makes me wonder what else they are lying about.

nanoo
20-Oct-07, 16:35
I'm assuming that as the apartment was out of the line of sight, you watched the programme the other night with the retired experts from britain. If so, you are accepting their word on that, if so you should also accept their view on Maddie wandering off. That only leaves abduction whether we like it or not.

connieb19
20-Oct-07, 16:43
I'm assuming that as the apartment was out of the line of sight, you watched the programme the other night with the retired experts from britain. If so, you are accepting their word on that, if so you should also accept their view on Maddie wandering off. That only leaves abduction whether we like it or not.
No you're wrong, there was a third option, which was a cover up and family involvement, which is more likely than an abduction.

scorrie
20-Oct-07, 17:14
To be honest I think I would accept the fact that a case like this is going to attract opinions and speculation of all kinds. I'd be thinking that the whole time people are willing to express opinions of any kind means that the story is being kept to the forefront of peoples minds and I wouldn't be too fussed about the methods of it being there.
Finding the truth always starts off as someones hunch anyway!

Hunch away I say!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, if one of your kids had the misfortune to fall off a cliff, you would be happy for people to state, on this forum, that they were 99% certain that YOU had pushed the child off the cliff? By the same token, how would you feel if someone posted here that THEY had a 99% certain feeling that Kevin MacLeod's parents were behind his demise? These are also simply, seemingly harmless, hunches and, by your logic, the truth always starts off with someone's hunch.

You are correct in your statement that many speculations have arisen. I am also correct in my opinion that many of those speculations are utter cack, based on snippets in the media, personal prejudices and a judgement of two individuals none of the speculators have ever met.

nanoo
20-Oct-07, 17:45
Your right. There was a third option, Only three. Option 1 - the child wandered off. This was quickly counted out as the child would have gone the way she new and it was well lit and quite busy. Option 2. it was a cover up by family because the children had been drugged to keep them quiet and Maddie had been given too much and died. Discounted in the press today as forensic results confirm negative for Drugs (and the local police believe all 3 kids were drugged) Option 3. Abduction, which it seems most likely to be now.

scorrie
20-Oct-07, 17:48
Plenty have offered their services. I came across one such couple a few days ago, will try to post the link later so that you can judge their credentials!!

Here is the link to the site I was referring to:-

http://amberconnections.com/index.php

If you click on "latest" you get the story of their involvement in the McCann case. There is also a link to this "article":-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Madeleine McCann and the Psychic Tracker

by kizzi in Uncategorized

Slip road - high wall on right hand side, red/orange bricked - Maddie in there at present. This is no ordinary residence. See black iron gates. See guard dogs, lawns and statues. Off beaten track. See a dolly being bathed in a small tin bath tub. See a lot of turquoise and gold ornate material - very expensive cloth, feels like a costume of some kind or clothing. Royal connection.

(Name withheld) has disposed of evidence now. Saw red book again and plastic square and oblong shapes, probably discs and videos that have been removed and placed in plastic bags and dumped. There are imprints of deleted information on his computer that links him.



Miscarriage of justice. Recovery will be swift. A female will bring light to this situation and bring information forward. A move is imminent. This is the end of a problamatic time and wrongs will be righted - but in time. Patience and perserverence is required for a good outcome. Resolution imminent.



Amanda

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dated 13th July, this would appear to bring a new definition of the word "imminent"

I don't think the word "cobblers" needs any change though!!

nanoo
19-Nov-07, 13:26
I see in the press and on television that, Metodo 3, the agency that the McCanns hired to find their daughter, are very close to solving the mystery. Francisco Marco(the lead private detective) has told american tv station CBS that the net is closing on the youngsters abductors. Metodo 3 are 100% certain Madeleine is still alive. This is the first positive news i've read about this case in weeks.

nanoo
19-Nov-07, 13:31
Sorry folks, i also meant to say, there is a Panorama special on tonight at 9 O'clock about Madeleine.

Ash
19-Nov-07, 14:04
hey thanks for that nanoo, im very interested in the case

johno
19-Nov-07, 14:15
well lets just hope that they dont involve the same phony,s that were in the last televised case. [disgust]

nanoo
19-Nov-07, 16:32
your getting the Gerry Mcann side of it according to their recordings on video and his laptop, while still in Portugal Johno.

porshiepoo
20-Nov-07, 11:09
So, if one of your kids had the misfortune to fall off a cliff, you would be happy for people to state, on this forum, that they were 99% certain that YOU had pushed the child off the cliff? By the same token, how would you feel if someone posted here that THEY had a 99% certain feeling that Kevin MacLeod's parents were behind his demise? These are also simply, seemingly harmless, hunches and, by your logic, the truth always starts off with someone's hunch.

You are correct in your statement that many speculations have arisen. I am also correct in my opinion that many of those speculations are utter cack, based on snippets in the media, personal prejudices and a judgement of two individuals none of the speculators have ever met.


Hardly the same is it!
Maddy didn't have some misfortunate accident, she was left in an unlocked room in a foreign country by parents who claim that they are responsible.
Completely avoidable!

As for my thoughts on what people think with regards to the demise of other innocents, again your analogy is somewhat off.
The incidents you mention have absolutely nothing in common with the Maddy case.

Ash
20-Nov-07, 11:35
i found the documentary better than channel4's one, it was interesting, i dont agree with them leaving there kids, but if someone abducted her then they had no right, regardless of her being left alone, i think she was abducted, before i did think the parents may have had something to do with it but now i dont

nanoo
20-Nov-07, 13:52
I have never thought anything else other than this child was abducted and last nights programme has'nt changed that. Yes, they should never have left the kids alone in the flat and for that they will punish themselves forever. The police don't like the inconsistencies of the stories related by the 9 friends but surely it would have been more suspicious if they had all related exactly the same story. Remember they had a meal, prosumably with wine and they admit to a few drinks afterwards, so if one person says 9.30pm another might think, no it was later/earlier that that. Hopefully, Metodo 3 will bring this to a happy conclusion and Madelaine will be reunited with her family very soon. God Willing.

scorrie
20-Nov-07, 21:40
Hardly the same is it!
Maddy didn't have some misfortunate accident, she was left in an unlocked room in a foreign country by parents who claim that they are responsible.
Completely avoidable!

As for my thoughts on what people think with regards to the demise of other innocents, again your analogy is somewhat off.
The incidents you mention have absolutely nothing in common with the Maddy case.

Wow, took you a long time to answer that one!!

I notice that, after all that time, you still didn't answer the questions. By their nature, no two cases will be identical. Either you would be happy for people to speculate about your possible involvement or you wouldn't be. I strongly suggest that you wouldn't be happy about it. That said, why should it be OK for YOU to speculate about others in a similar situation?

I really think you are clutching at straws here to try to wriggle out of your own flawed logic.

"Absolutely nothing in common"? Where's my sleeve? I need to have a rather long guffaw up it!!

porshiepoo
20-Nov-07, 22:03
Wow, took you a long time to answer that one!!

I notice that, after all that time, you still didn't answer the questions. By their nature, no two cases will be identical. Either you would be happy for people to speculate about your possible involvement or you wouldn't be. I strongly suggest that you wouldn't be happy about it. That said, why should it be OK for YOU to speculate about others in a similar situation?

I really think you are clutching at straws here to try to wriggle out of your own flawed logic.

"Absolutely nothing in common"? Where's my sleeve? I need to have a rather long guffaw up it!!



Ok just to clear it up.
I took a long time to answer because I hadn't noticed the thread for a long while and that's probably because I haven't been checking in that much!
I don't beleive there is a time scale expected when replying to these things, maybe you know something we all don't!
Does that answer that for you? :roll:

Next, I can only answer your query in the context of how I feel now. Of course things could very well change should I ever find myself in the situation Maddy's parents are. But, as I said in one of my previous posts I would accept that there would be speculation if my theoretical case followed the same direction as the McGanns is.
Perhaps I wouldn't like it, but I would accept it.
So that kind of negates your question as to why it should be Ok for me to speculate on this case - why shouldn't it be Ok!

You can speculate as much as you like as to what I would and wouldn't think, that is your perogative.

scorrie
20-Nov-07, 22:51
Ok just to clear it up.
I took a long time to answer because I hadn't noticed the thread for a long while and that's probably because I haven't been checking in that much!
I don't beleive there is a time scale expected when replying to these things, maybe you know something we all don't!
Does that answer that for you? :roll:

Next, I can only answer your query in the context of how I feel now. Of course things could very well change should I ever find myself in the situation Maddy's parents are. But, as I said in one of my previous posts I would accept that there would be speculation if my theoretical case followed the same direction as the McGanns is.
Perhaps I wouldn't like it, but I would accept it.
So that kind of negates your question as to why it should be Ok for me to speculate on this case - why shouldn't it be Ok!

You can speculate as much as you like as to what I would and wouldn't think, that is your perogative.

Part 1:- I was not being serious about the timescale, no need for rolling eyes.

Part 2:- It is as certain as Christmas that you would be distraught if you found yourself in the situation the McCanns are in. It is even more certain that you would be gutted to the core to hear people speculate that you had murdered your own daughter. These are simple and obvious truths. You are going against all logic, simply to avoid admitting that my points are correct.


I think that far too much tittle-tattle takes place in our society and most of it seems to be about revelling in the misfortune of others. I read that 70% of the UK population believe that the McCanns are guilty. I also read that 22% of working-aged people in the UK are incapable of comparing and contrasting TWO seperate pieces of information. Jury duty anyone?