View Full Version : Courier
Highland Laddie
19-Sep-07, 18:11
More developments earmarked beside Tesco,
I'm surprised there has been no outrage on the Org yet.
why an outrage ,developments. bring em on, the more the merrier. :cool:
Highland Laddie
19-Sep-07, 18:49
Quite agree Johno
was just surprised the doom and gloom merchants
haven't started their tiatribe on the org yet.
Highland Laddie
19-Sep-07, 19:00
1 x 25,000 sq foot building with a 10,000 sq foot garden centre
and 3 additional 10,000 sq foot buildings, no names given.
up for planning application toward the end of the year.
changilass
19-Sep-07, 19:34
Yippe I love garden centres:D
Murchiemannie
19-Sep-07, 21:51
Hope they get the approval needed. It's great to see all the "chains" opening in the North. Bring 'em on I say.[lol]
DarkAngel
19-Sep-07, 21:57
The more shops the Merrier!!!
My word...this thread was started at 10 past 6 and still no doom and gloomers......things are looking up!!
My word...this thread was started at 10 past 6 and still no doom and gloomers......things are looking up!!
I think everyone gave their opinions already on the Tesco and ASDA threads. Most people want new shops, so that is what will happen. Do you think Wick is better off for Tesco et al being here? It doesn't look like a town on the way up and, employment wise, we seem to be little, if any, better off.
I like positive vibes as much as the next person but, while having more shops is great for giving you choice, it is clear that the overall spend will be averaged out over greater numbers of stores and the average take will decrease in some shops. Once targets stop getting met, stores become less viable.
Like it or not, Caithness does not have the population base or the economic growth to sustain endless influx of new stores. You simply cannot create a local economy that is based on constant increased consumption. We cannot spend our way to prosperity. If you look at UK companies, they send their manufacturing and service jobs overseas in a manner that has almost become de rigueur in today's marketplace. Why would anyone send any of these jobs to Wick, when they can have someone in the Far East work in a sweat shop for literally pennies per hour? I read somewhere that Primark had their products made in such countries, hence the reason they can sell a dress for £6
We seem to be a nation of shopaholics looking for low prices. To meet that demand, it becomes impossible for companies to use the UK workforce to produce goods at low prices and job opportunities are lost overseas.
Chelsea are owned by a Russian, Man Utd by an American, how many of "our" companies are actually owned by people from other countries?
I have the feeling that, one morning, Britain will wake up and find that it has sold itself!!
My word...this thread was started at 10 past 6 and still no doom and gloomers......things are looking up!!
I must tell Eleanor Scott about this!:roll:
It'll be a disaster! We're all Doomed! [lol]
With reference to scorries point that the arrival of Tesco has not boosted employment in Wick, Are you mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Tesco has given jobs to people who were long term unemployed who couldnt get jobs with local business, due to snobbery,and cliques.
I have seen people in Tesco's working who havent worked in a long time and also "older" employees who thought they were on the scrap heap.
And with regard to the point that Caithnes cant sustain large companies how do you know? I personally know the turnover for Tesco and believe me Caithness CAN sustain these companies.
It is quite a bad argument when the local press reported on the takeover of somerfield and couldnt even be bothered to research the story. They stated that they had sold the premises even though they were advertising they were cheaper than Tesco, this was soooooo wrong as the pic that they showed and I think most of us know stated they were MATCHING Tesco on prices, It seems the doomgloomers are to quick to critsise.
For every 10 happy people theres always a doomgloomer!
(Dictionary extract below)Extracted from Caithness edition
Doomgloomer:(verb)-word used to describe a person who can only see the bad points in an argument and vents their frustration via caithness.org.(also see sadmannie,sadwifie
crashbandicoot1979
20-Sep-07, 09:11
I'll save the doom and gloom until I know what shops are going in :lol: I'd be happy with most of them but theres a choice few I personally would rather stay away.
bring them on, Wick was dying, the place was turning into a ghost town, the place needs new development and fresh input to survive, from what I've seen Wick is begining to come to life again, it's nice to see.
More power to their elbow, i say. This has been a long time coming and i for one can't see them here quick enough. This town has been a carbon copy of my home town for years. Every time something was to come to my home town, Ayr got it instead, just like for many years Thurso came first. Wick is a great place to stay and anything that revitalizes her is okay in my book.;)
Its not before time that new outlets are to be built in Caithness I left last year before Tesco in Wick opened although Hombase argos etc had opened It saved me trips to Inverness !! the More the merrier and gives people more choice be interesting to see what they put in the outlets
With reference to scorries point that the arrival of Tesco has not boosted employment in Wick, Are you mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
Tesco has given jobs to people who were long term unemployed who couldnt get jobs with local business, due to snobbery,and cliques.
I have seen people in Tesco's working who havent worked in a long time and also "older" employees who thought they were on the scrap heap.
And with regard to the point that Caithnes cant sustain large companies how do you know? I personally know the turnover for Tesco and believe me Caithness CAN sustain these companies.
It is quite a bad argument when the local press reported on the takeover of somerfield and couldnt even be bothered to research the story. They stated that they had sold the premises even though they were advertising they were cheaper than Tesco, this was soooooo wrong as the pic that they showed and I think most of us know stated they were MATCHING Tesco on prices, It seems the doomgloomers are to quick to critsise.
For every 10 happy people theres always a doomgloomer!
(Dictionary extract below)Extracted from Caithness edition
Doomgloomer:(verb)-word used to describe a person who can only see the bad points in an argument and vents their frustration via caithness.org.(also see sadmannie,sadwifie
I assume you work for Tesco, given that you are privy to their turnover figures? I suspect it will be difficult for you to express a neutral opinion if this is the case. In any case, turnover itself is of no use whatsoever, you need to be able to run at a sufficient PROFIT to make any business viable.
Am I mad or even "mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!."?
Don't think so. Whatever the case may be, I CAN read unemployment figures and know for a FACT that Wick is still an unemployment blackspot.
Tesco's did indeed recruit from the ranks of the unemployed. They had no choice in that, it was part of the deal. How many have been dismissed since then though? I know that there has been theft carried out by staff and perhaps that may be why there was a "clique" imposed by other prospective employers who, unreasonably, expect their staff to keep their fingers out of the till!!
Caithness may well be sustaining Tesco but at what cost to other shops? How many ex-Somerfield staff are now in Tesco, how many came from other existing businesses in the town? It is not rocket science to work out what is going on. It is equally easy to calculate that there is a limited pot of money available to spend by Caithness consumers as a whole. If people are in Tesco, then they are not in Somerfield or the Coop. There is no increase in spending, it is simply spread differently. I was in Somerfield this morning and it was like a ghost town. They had leaflets stating that it has never been a better time to join the ranks of Somerfield staff!! Oh yeah, who really believes that? I have to say it looks bleak for Somerfield right now and the Coop is little different. If they close, it seems certain that few will mourn their passing. However, we will then have lost two supermarkets and simply replaced them with one bigger one. There will be less to draw people to the town centre, which is already pretty stagnant looking.
So let's sum it up, unemployment is still a problem, nothing new is happening in the town centre, yet it seems that the town is coming to life in some eyes. I would love to see some real evidence of this theory. All I see is wishful thinking and a blind faith in different shops equating to prosperity. It makes me laugh to have read that so many in Caithness were so poor that they needed Tesco for the cheaper shopping. The next thing you read is a wish list for Harvey Nichols et al
I have no connection to any of the Wick shops, I have no sympathy for some of them but accept that others cannot compete on price, which, sadly, is the sole factor for most shoppers.
I am not a Doomgloomer, more a Shopper with the Foresight to see the bull. The new word is "too racy for the org";)
correct me if i am wrong, did tesco not buy dobbies garden centres,so it may be a dobbies garden centre you may be getting, their is a big dobbies in fife next to the m90 motorway at dunfermline which is very good,so they maybe setting one in wick for you folk:Razz
The more companies, the more jobs. Don't we need jobs?
The more companies, the more jobs. Don't we need jobs?
It is not that simple. Companies tend to prefer to recruit people who already have a job. People tend to like the idea of working for a new company. Staff migrate from one job to another. What then happens is, because there is new competition, sales in the shop that the person has left will fall, meaning that staff have to be laid off, or, as was the case with Somerfield staff who went to Tesco en masse, they are simply never replaced. Wick remains the area of the Highland Region with the highest rate of unemployment, despite the "magic bullet" new stores.
It does not matter how many times I say this. Some people will still say that new shops means more jobs. That could only be the case if we could increase our spending exponentially to match the increased opportunities to spend.
Highland Laddie
21-Sep-07, 01:29
The more companies that come to caithness, the more staff they will need
the more staff there are, the more wages there are to spend,
the more wages that are spent.The more companies that come to caithness, the more staff they will need the more staff there are, the more wages there are to spend,the more wages that are spent.The more companies that come to caithness, the more staff they will need the more staff there are, the more wages there are to spend,the more wages that are spent.
and so on and so forth.
and you say your not a gloom munger
i would hate to see you on a bad day. :-))
The more companies that come to caithness, the more staff they will need
the more staff there are, the more wages there are to spend,
the more wages that are spent.The more companies that come to caithness, the more staff they will need the more staff there are, the more wages there are to spend,the more wages that are spent.The more companies that come to caithness, the more staff they will need the more staff there are, the more wages there are to spend,the more wages that are spent.
and so on and so forth.
and you say your not a gloom munger
i would hate to see you on a bad day. :-))
Yes and all that is fuelled by the provision of better or more frequent rail , road, ferry, and air links. Things are looking up if we truly look.
Murchiemannie
21-Sep-07, 08:57
The more employment that comes to Wick must surely be a good thing as it may stop some families from migrating South to look for better prospects.For too long now Wick has had to live under the shadow of Thurso starting way back in Dounreay's hey day and as an exiled Wicker I for one am very happy for them.
The more companies that come to caithness, the more staff they will need
the more staff there are, the more wages there are to spend,
the more wages that are spent.The more companies that come to caithness, the more staff they will need the more staff there are, the more wages there are to spend,the more wages that are spent.The more companies that come to caithness, the more staff they will need the more staff there are, the more wages there are to spend,the more wages that are spent.
and so on and so forth.
and you say your not a gloom munger
i would hate to see you on a bad day. :-))
My goodness me. The solution to all Britain's problems is laid bare. No more unemployment, no more people below the poverty line, a Eutopia is born on the back of more, more, more and yet MORE shops. I suggest that you write to Alastair Darling and tell him that he can ensure full employment for all and a high standard of living by simply opening shops in every nook and cranny of the country!!
This has to be the most ill-thought out pipedream I have read in a long time.
I am a realist, I live in the real world. No need for your "hate to see you on a bad day" cheap jibe. I am not stopping anyone from living the dream. When I see an improvement in the town and lower unemployment in the town, I will be only too happy to admit that it was I who had the old head up the ASDA!!
Until then, I comment on the evidence I see, including the obvious decay that has set in within Somerfield and the Coop.
Yes and all that is fuelled by the provision of better or more frequent rail , road, ferry, and air links. Things are looking up if we truly look.
Show your evidence then. Where is the improved employment rate? Where are the new jobs that can be sustained by outside investment, rather than having to push the flexible friend up to the paps?
If you think that WE, as consumers, can spend our way to prosperity then you had better run, rather than walk to a business school.
Show your evidence then.
Well what about all the new incoming workers into the county and the housing shortage, they can't put up houses quick enough. Better communications will help .
Well what about all the new incoming workers into the county and the housing shortage, they can't put up houses quick enough. Better communications will help .
Gee whizz Rheghead, it seems hard to get any meaningful logic out of you. The increase in housing is coming against an overall population decline and often against failing local economies. It is a problem of affordable housing and suitable housing that is being addressed. This section from a document on Housing Strategy on The Highland Council website explains:-
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Despite the overall projected reduction in population the number of households in Highland is projected to increase by around 12% by 2014. This is because household sizes are falling.
The greatest increase is predicted in single-person households (by 38%). Lone-parent households are also expected to increase (by 23%).
Whilst a substantial reduction in younger, economically active people is predicted, older people over retirement age are expected to form a much greater proportion of the population by 2014 – far higher than expected in Scotland overall (30% compared to 24%).
The growth in single people and lone parents impacts on housing as they are least likely to be able to afford home ownership and so are more likely to require affordable housing. The increase in older person households will require investment in equipment and adaptations,and a range of support and care to enable people to remain in their homes. It may also require additional sheltered housing or other specialist housing provision."
----------------------------------------------------------
Part of the strategy is to help regenerate some areas through providing, suitable, affordable housing. That equates to building houses to try to help the area and NOT because the area concerned is already booming and over-flowing with incomers. You will see in the above extract that "a substantial reduction in younger, economically active people is predicted", that would seem to be a worry for me.
I appreciate that people are working to help the area regenerate but we have a long way to go in my mind and it is certain that shops alone are not going to get us there. If people want to take certain facts at face value and read happy times into it, then I doubt that I could change their minds. It would be nice to see those "indicators of prosperity" investigated more thoroughly though.
Gee whizz Rheghead, it seems hard to get any meaningful logic out of you. The increase in housing is coming against an overall population decline and often against failing local economies. It is a problem of affordable housing and suitable housing that is being addressed. This section from a document on Housing Strategy on The Highland Council website explains:-
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Despite the overall projected reduction in population the number of households in Highland is projected to increase by around 12% by 2014. This is because household sizes are falling.
The greatest increase is predicted in single-person households (by 38%). Lone-parent households are also expected to increase (by 23%).
Whilst a substantial reduction in younger, economically active people is predicted, older people over retirement age are expected to form a much greater proportion of the population by 2014 – far higher than expected in Scotland overall (30% compared to 24%).
The growth in single people and lone parents impacts on housing as they are least likely to be able to afford home ownership and so are more likely to require affordable housing. The increase in older person households will require investment in equipment and adaptations,and a range of support and care to enable people to remain in their homes. It may also require additional sheltered housing or other specialist housing provision."
----------------------------------------------------------
Part of the strategy is to help regenerate some areas through providing, suitable, affordable housing. That equates to building houses to try to help the area and NOT because the area concerned is already booming and over-flowing with incomers. You will see in the above extract that "a substantial reduction in younger, economically active people is predicted", that would seem to be a worry for me.
I appreciate that people are working to help the area regenerate but we have a long way to go in my mind and it is certain that shops alone are not going to get us there. If people want to take certain facts at face value and read happy times into it, then I doubt that I could change their minds. It would be nice to see those "indicators of prosperity" investigated more thoroughly though.
So single parent families are driving the economic boom in Caithness?[lol]
If there's one thing that government both national and local are good at getting wrong it's population dynamics. Here in Glasgow the predictions of school populations were all wrong largely due to the influx of Eastern Europeans. Not only have they predicted falling school roles in some areas but they've failed to react when those roles have risen. In Edinburgh the influx of Eastern Europeans and English has had the same effect.
It is not rocket science to work out what is going on. It is equally easy to calculate that there is a limited pot of money available to spend by Caithness consumers as a whole. If people are in Tesco, then they are not in Somerfield or the Coop. There is no increase in spending, it is simply spread differently.Like most simplistic arguments your claim is a good starting point but it's not the whole story. According to the casual observer (that's me ;)), Wick's town centre has been going downhill for years but it didn't look worse to an exile last month than it did last year or the year before. Whilst the pot available for retail spending by Caithness residents may be limited a lot of it has been spent in Inverness in recent years; a quick eye-spy survey of the 'SK' plates in the Tesco and Eastgate car parks on an average Saturday lends immediate support to that particular hypothesis, and these are all old cars! Then there's internet shopping. New shops in Wick will make dents into both sets of external spends and bring a non-negligible fraction of that huge spend back into the county.
The hypothesis that Caithness retail spending is constant is more interesting. I suggest that total retail spend would increase with the expansion of local shopping facilities but that increase is hard to quantify without hard data.
Do more shops lead to more shops lead to more ... ?
What little evidence we have is affirmative but it's obvious that long term exponential growth is ludicrous as scorrie has explained. I'm not sure what the true behaviour is but it's an interesting exercise in mathematical modelling. Do we have any volunteers to do it?
So single parent families are driving the economic boom in Caithness?[lol]
There is no economic boom in Caithness.
There is no economic boom in Caithness.
For the house builders there is, and then they spends their money...
Like most simplistic arguments your claim is a good starting point but it's not the whole story. According to the casual observer (that's me ;)), Wick's town centre has been going downhill for years but it didn't look worse to an exile last month than it did last year or the year before. Whilst the pot available for retail spending by Caithness residents may be limited a lot of it has been spent in Inverness in recent years; a quick eye-spy survey of the 'SK' plates in the Tesco and Eastgate car parks on an average Saturday lends immediate support to that particular hypothesis, and these are all old cars! Then there's internet shopping. New shops in Wick will make dents into both sets of external spends and bring a non-negligible fraction of that huge spend back into the county.
The hypothesis that Caithness retail spending is constant is more interesting. I suggest that total retail spend would increase with the expansion of local shopping facilities but that increase is hard to quantify without hard data.
Do more shops lead to more shops lead to more ... ?
What little evidence we have is affirmative but it's obvious that long term exponential growth is ludicrous as scorrie has explained. I'm not sure what the true behaviour is but it's an interesting exercise in mathematical modelling. Do we have any volunteers to do it?
Hi Crayola, I think you should do more than just have a look at the shops in Wick. Go in, have a look around and see how busy they are, ask the owners/managers if business is down. Look to see where staff have been laid off and how ghostly Somerfield and The Coop are compared to what they used to be. It IS very noticable. I think you would find D R Simpsons to be completely different now. It is virtually dead as a bookshop, They are stocking scented candles, soft toys, ornaments etc in a big way. The till in the back part of the shop no longer exists, that tells me that they are not as busy as they used to be. Bring another batch of new shops and what will the prognosis be for the town centre? As the chap who was looking for premises stated in another thread, the rent/rates for town centre buildings is very high and I think one would have to come up with a niche market to offer what the big stores cannot offer. The trouble with niche markets is that, by their nature, their turnover is normally lower leading to viabilty problems.
Your point about Inverness is very valid and a refreshing change from the Shops Jobs Shops Jobs Shops Mantra. Obviously we would need to take all the shops in Inverness up to Wick to make sure all monies being spent in Inverness were now spent in Wick instead. We would then have the very real problem of trying to keep those shops viable in Wick, even with every penny being shaken out of every man, woman, child and piggy bank in the town.
My main point in all of this, is that I see no evidence of Wick being any more properous since Tesco et al arrived. I don't feel any better off financially and do not get any more feeling of pride when walking through the High Street. Unemployment is still higher than anywhere else in the Highland Region. I don't have the answers, I am simply trying to let people see that the "Good Times" seem to be giving off a very rose coloured shine at present.
Thanks for your input.
For the house builders there is, and then they spends their money...
What about Joe Public?
You can't get your head round the bigger picture at all. Best not to stray beyond your own front gate Rheghead. You seem to be quoting from the Janet and John book of thinking here!!
If there's one thing that government both national and local are good at getting wrong it's population dynamics. Here in Glasgow the predictions of school populations were all wrong largely due to the influx of Eastern Europeans. Not only have they predicted falling school roles in some areas but they've failed to react when those roles have risen. In Edinburgh the influx of Eastern Europeans and English has had the same effect.
Where do you think the figures may be off the mark then? It seems certain that the Bionic Crinklies will continue to grow. What say yea on the other areas?
What about Joe Public?
You can't get your head round the bigger picture at all. Best not to stray beyond your own front gate Rheghead. You seem to be quoting from the Janet and John book of thinking here!!
I don't see your logic, you say there is no economic boom, yet new retail outlets are springing up, new houses are going up, new road,rail and air communications are on the up. C'mon, where's your logic?:confused
Where do you think the figures may be off the mark then? It seems certain that the Bionic Crinklies will continue to grow. What say yea on the other areas?Yes, the bionic crinklies' numbers will grow but the influx of young families from England and Poland has increased Scotland's population significantly in each of the last two years respectively. I can probably dig out the figures if you really want them. The new Polish children with no English are poviding a lot of extra work for our teachers.
I don't see your logic, you say there is no economic boom, yet new retail outlets are springing up, new houses are going up, new road,rail and air communications are on the up. C'mon, where's your logic?:confusedI suppose it depends on how you define an economic boom. Your version seems ok but unemployment is also a factor and it usually falls during a boom. I have heard it said that there's little demand for work amongst Wick's unemployed, expecially the long term unemployed, but I have no way of gauging the accuracy of that statement.
I must admit that the demise of Dounreay scares the economic pants off me.
Sorry, I forgot to use the multiple quote feature.
I must admit that the demise of Dounreay scares the economic pants off me.
As far I know/understand the future of Dounreay should have little effect on the economic prosperity of Caithness given the timescales involved that determines a period of economic boom, I may be wrong though. Economic boom/busts are usually on the 5-7 year timescales, Dounreay will be here for at least 30 years though what the staffing levels during that period is uncertain. There is still a need for seeking new work for the existing workforce btw. There isn't many employers that will guarantee 10 years of work, let alone 20 years yet 10 years is normally enough to be considered a period of boom in other fields of economics.
There is a lot of panic about it.
I read this extract (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/3071/'Can-do_attitude'_as_Caithness_faces_up_to_life_after_D ounreay.html) in yesterday's Groat.
Aberdeen-based academic Dr Holger Bergmann said better transport links and a 10 per cent increase in local net output value are needed to maintain job numbers in the region. Dounreay currently employs 2000, which will drop to virtually zero when the clean-up is completed in about 25 years' time.
Dr Bergmann, a research fellow at the University of Aberdeen's Business School, said: "My research highlights the continuing importance of the Dounreay site for the local labour market in Caithness and Sutherland."
He found that the decommissioning programme accounts for 33 per cent (around 4300 jobs) of all employment in the area.
I don't know what 'a 10 per cent increase in local net output value' means but let's accept for the moment the claim that 'the decommissioning programme accounts for 33 per cent (around 4300 jobs) of all employment in the area'. Not only is this a huge fraction of Caithness' total employment but as you say it's stable employment and a significant fraction of it is relatively well paid so its loss will be devastating if the rest of the local economy is not transformed. Caithness may have 30 years to do something about it but it's 30 years since they finished building the last reactor and nothing on this scale has happened in that 30 years. That's why it scares the pants off me.
It's not just the simple job count that matters. Some Dounreay employees will leave the area in search of work and that will lead to empty houses and lower retail spend in Thurso, which in turn can lead to gloom and doom and a downward spiral.
There's big talk about tidal and wave energy but big talk needs big investment and big new technology not just big ideas. Where is this investment going to come from? Who's going to develop the technology? As far as I can tell last week's meeting in Thurso addressed these issues but the way forward looks far from straight. I know there's a long time to make it all happen and I know a lot of people will put in a lot of effort but the possible economic disaster awaiting Thurso in particular still scares the pants off me.
Whitewater
23-Sep-07, 02:03
The town centre in Wick was finished years before Tesco or any of other new shops in town set up their premisis. If you required a particular article you had to go to Inverness. The town centre in Wick had the opportunity to do well if they got of their backsides and supplied some of the goods which people required, but they did not do that, they continued as their fathers had done before them, "it's in the shop, take it or leave it, I don't care, somebody else will come along and buy it at my inflated price" this was the mentality of the local shop 100yrs ago, 50 yrs ago and sadly in many cases, also today. 50yrs ago they had an excuse, the transport was not available for people to move around, but it all came slowly, people could expand their horizons, go further afield and see how the rest were doing, and realize they were being ripped off. Now Tescos and all the other stores are doing the ripping off , but the difference being that the shoppers are having to pay less, these shops can supply the goods, be a pleasure to shop in, have pleasant staff, and will do, of all the unthinkable things, even accept goods back and refund your money. My goodness!!! where did that ever happen before.
I personaly do not care where I shop. If I require a particular item, I look around locally, go to the big shops and also look on line. I buy where I get the best deal for the quality I require.
The one thing that Tescos can't do better is the service that I get from the local butcher shops. I can go into the local butcher shop, tell him/her the particular weight and cut I require, and have it delivered at short notice if necessary, but if I go to Tesco for a particular cut it 's OK if I want a couple of pound of stewing steak, it's on the shelf, but if I ask for the salmon cut of a silverside or a whole boned and rolled gigot of pork with the skin removed and tied loosley around the joint they are unable to supply it as all their meat comes in pre-cut and pre-packed. OK for perhaps 80% of the shoppers, but not if you require specialist service.
The county is booming, there is pleanty of work for the people that want it. Although Dounreay is now being decommissioned at grossly inflated figures, empoyment is provided with better than average payment. It might be different in the not too distant future, but at the moment it is doing OK.
Sure there are high unemployment figures in Wick and Thurso, and there has been for a very long time, just look around the county, how many jobs are now being done by migrant workers, these jobs could all have been filled by local employees if they had got off their butts, but sadly, too many feel that hands-on work was below their dignity, and they were perhaps doing too well under the Benifit systems to bothered by any menial tasks.
The County is booming at the moment, and the new shops are all OK, if they want to open here, thats fine. They will have done their homework and know what to expect.
The county is booming, there is pleanty of work for the people that want it.
I don't know how you would go about proving that.
As you say, work at Dounreay is at a rate of pay better than average. Much of it requires special skills. That is the problem with most of the work provided by shops, it is not particularly skilled and it is not that well paid in the main. Take a look at Argos for example. They are currently advertising for sales assistants at a rate of pay of £5.48 an hour, that is a lofty 13p per hour more than the national minimum. I have seen numerous adverts where the rate is not quoted but the statement "minimum wage criteria satisfied"is used instead. I wonder how much they are paying there then?
If shops ARE to provide the main employment in the area, it hardly looks as if most of the population are going to be flush. It also begs the question of what we have to offer our brighter kids and what incentive there is for them to stay in the area.
I think that the gap between benefits and the minimum wage IS probably too small. If you think about what you have left with of £5.35 an hour after deductions, and the benefits you lose by being in work, perhaps the incentive to look for work just isn't there. If a better wage were offered, I am sure that more people would be willing to give it a go.
I don't know how you would go about proving that.
As you say, work at Dounreay is at a rate of pay better than average. Much of it requires special skills. That is the problem with most of the work provided by shops, it is not particularly skilled and it is not that well paid in the main. Take a look at Argos for example. They are currently advertising for sales assistants at a rate of pay of £5.48 an hour, that is a lofty 13p per hour more than the national minimum. I have seen numerous adverts where the rate is not quoted but the statement "minimum wage criteria satisfied"is used instead. I wonder how much they are paying there then?
If shops ARE to provide the main employment in the area, it hardly looks as if most of the population are going to be flush. It also begs the question of what we have to offer our brighter kids and what incentive there is for them to stay in the area.
I think that the gap between benefits and the minimum wage IS probably too small. If you think about what you have left with of £5.35 an hour after deductions, and the benefits you lose by being in work, perhaps the incentive to look for work just isn't there. If a better wage were offered, I am sure that more people would be willing to give it a go.Crikey scorrie, they must be getting to you if you can even contemplate considering what would happen 'if shops ARE to provide the main employment in the area.' :D
I think we agree that this employment scenario is not feasible but I suppose it's worth considering the sort of society it would lead to if it were.
Two minutes later......
I tried, but it just isn't feasible. The local economy would collapse because no-one could afford to buy enough to keep it going unless Caithness becomes a sort of commuter belt for oil/offshore workers in which case we shouldn't claim that shops provided the main employment in the area unless we choose to be pedantically literal. Either way, most of the brighter kids would leave and never come back.
Hi Crayola, I think you should do more than just have a look at the shops in Wick. Go in, have a look around and see how busy they are, ask the owners/managers if business is down. Look to see where staff have been laid off and how ghostly Somerfield and The Coop are compared to what they used to be. It IS very noticable. I think you would find D R Simpsons to be completely different now. It is virtually dead as a bookshop, They are stocking scented candles, soft toys, ornaments etc in a big way. The till in the back part of the shop no longer exists, that tells me that they are not as busy as they used to be. Bring another batch of new shops and what will the prognosis be for the town centre? As the chap who was looking for premises stated in another thread, the rent/rates for town centre buildings is very high and I think one would have to come up with a niche market to offer what the big stores cannot offer. The trouble with niche markets is that, by their nature, their turnover is normally lower leading to viabilty problems.You're right of course, a cursory glance is far from the whole story, and my glib comment was simply that the town centre was in a bad way long before Tesco and chums appeared on the scene.
I don't think there's a lot that can be done about rates in the current uniform business rate regime but I may be totally wrong. Can anyone shed some light on this? Rents however are a different matter, is there any chance that they can be lowered, either by economic good practice or intervention/subsidy?
Your point about Inverness is very valid and a refreshing change from the Shops Jobs Shops Jobs Shops Mantra. Obviously we would need to take all the shops in Inverness up to Wick to make sure all monies being spent in Inverness were now spent in Wick instead. We would then have the very real problem of trying to keep those shops viable in Wick, even with every penny being shaken out of every man, woman, child and piggy bank in the town.Lol, and I thought I was good at drawing attention to the extreme side of things. Very nice. :lol:
My main point in all of this, is that I see no evidence of Wick being any more properous since Tesco et al arrived. I don't feel any better off financially and do not get any more feeling of pride when walking through the High Street. Unemployment is still higher than anywhere else in the Highland Region. I don't have the answers, I am simply trying to let people see that the "Good Times" seem to be giving off a very rose coloured shine at present.The feelgood/feelbad factor is one thing but it would be better to see some sort of quantitative measure of Wick's prosperity. I don't doubt anythng you say here but your financial situation may not be typical. It probably is though.
Crikey scorrie, they must be getting to you if you can even contemplate considering what would happen 'if shops ARE to provide the main employment in the area.' :D
I just wonder how far some people have thought the scenario through. If spending is to increase to meet the greater opportunities to spend, then wages will only support that so far before our Flexible Friend, Victor Visa has to step in. Some stats on UK Debt can be found here:-
http://www.creditaction.org.uk/debtstats.htm
They seem somewhat worrying to me.
In all my days, I have never heard anyone willingly admitting that they had debt problems. Nobody likes to talk about it but it exists in a bigger way every year. I worked for a short period of time with people in debt problems and they were not stupid people, they just had easy credit made available to them and underestimated how hard it would be to pay back. Every one of them left it too late to admit there was a problem and to finally address that problem. The debt advisor I worked with told me that Debt was the biggest growth area in Caithness but, to listen to people, you would never get the impression that it existed at all.
Many people I spoke to before Tesco came said they were looking forward to the cheaper shopping in order that more luxury items could be afforded. I would say that most, if not all, now tell me that they are spending more on their weekly shop than before Tesco came. Quite a lot more in some cases. I see no evidence that those little "luxuries" are being sacrificed to take up the slack, so where does the extra spending power come from?
Credit is relatively easy to obtain and, if there are more shops on the horizon, I wonder how many will let the plastic take the strain out of sampling the new wares?
I only ask that people consider the knock-on effect of ever more stores in our increasingly "shopaholic" society.
I just wonder how far some people have thought the scenario through. If spending is to increase to meet the greater opportunities to spend, then wages will only support that so far before our Flexible Friend, Victor Visa has to step in. Some stats on UK Debt can be found here:-
http://www.creditaction.org.uk/debtstats.htm
They seem somewhat worrying to me.
It is those who can afford to spend that are the ones that the retailing outlets are interested in. Nobody wants debt that can't be recovered, least of all the shops.
I am amused by Credit Action's slogan 'Better thinking about money'. If my thinking about money was as naive as theirs I would still be a pauper today, but I suppose they are targetting their efforts towards those who need help so perhaps I shouldn't be so haughty.
Nevertheless, the way they lump unsecured personal loans in with mortgages in an era of unrelenting house price increases is pretty poor in my opinion.
Having read all the arguments it took me sometime to get off the service bridge as I thought we were all doomed, doomed I tell you! Then I realised that it was only scorrie so alls well then.
I have found some of the comments hysterical and full of doom and gloom.
Maybe I am just an optimist but I can see the benefits in the town. True the town centre is dead but it was anyway it only looked busy with all the unemployed people hanging around, now where are they? Probably employed now so its not all bad.
There is money and there are jobs in the town some vacancies have been up and readvertised numerous times, either loadsa people are working or are on caithness.org all day so cant apply!!!! :}
Its not all bad, bring on the shops, bring on the smile on my face!!
It is those who can afford to spend that are the ones that the retailing outlets are interested in. Nobody wants debt that can't be recovered, least of all the shops.
You are totally and utterly clueless Rheghead. Retail outlets don't give a Fiddler's about what type of money is coming over the counter. Can you really, even in your wildest dreams, believe that a shop has any idea whether or not the purchaser is in financial difficulty or not? Unless the card is refused, in which case there is no purchase anyway, then the problem rests with the card user and the credit card company.
I am shocked at your lack of even the most basic savvy, when it comes to this topic. Retail outlets are leeches, they will take the very drawers off yer erse given the chance. Dear Doctor!!
I am amused by Credit Action's slogan 'Better thinking about money'. If my thinking about money was as naive as theirs I would still be a pauper today, but I suppose they are targetting their efforts towards those who need help so perhaps I shouldn't be so haughty.
Nevertheless, the way they lump unsecured personal loans in with mortgages in an era of unrelenting house price increases is pretty poor in my opinion.
Are you disputing that debt is rising then?
Having read all the arguments it took me sometime to get off the service bridge as I thought we were all doomed, doomed I tell you! Then I realised that it was only scorrie so alls well then.
I have found some of the comments hysterical and full of doom and gloom.
Maybe I am just an optimist but I can see the benefits in the town. True the town centre is dead but it was anyway it only looked busy with all the unemployed people hanging around, now where are they? Probably employed now so its not all bad.
There is money and there are jobs in the town some vacancies have been up and readvertised numerous times, either loadsa people are working or are on caithness.org all day so cant apply!!!! :}
Its not all bad, bring on the shops, bring on the smile on my face!!
Aye, ignorance is bliss.
Have you any worthwhile comment to make, or are you the usual scoffing sarcasm merchant?
What part of unemployment figures do you not understand?
Your post contains nothing that can be backed up with any evidence. It is the usual, cheap innuendo.
I am one of the very few with sufficiently large cojones to come on here and make comment against the tide of wishful thinking.
If you are walking around with a permanent smile don't let me worry you.
Walk on by or hit ignore, if you are really feeling ambitious you could even try cobbling together something worthwhile in the way of a response, instead of a schoolboy type jibe.
1 x 25,000 sq foot building with a 10,000 sq foot garden centre
and 3 additional 10,000 sq foot buildings, no names given.
up for planning application toward the end of the year.
Didn't tescos buy Dobbies garden centre chain for £156m?
Didn't tescos buy Dobbies garden centre chain for £156m?
Oh yes, you can be sure Tesco will not rest until they manage to kill off the retail park on the other side of town. One up the old fertiliser outlet for Homebase!! ;)
You are totally and utterly clueless Rheghead. Retail outlets don't give a Fiddler's about what type of money is coming over the counter. Can you really, even in your wildest dreams, believe that a shop has any idea whether or not the purchaser is in financial difficulty or not? Unless the card is refused, in which case there is no purchase anyway, then the problem rests with the card user and the credit card company.
I am shocked at your lack of even the most basic savvy, when it comes to this topic. Retail outlets are leeches, they will take the very drawers off yer erse given the chance. Dear Doctor!!
I think you are quite naive and biased about the relationship between customers and commerce. No shop wants their customers to get into debt and not get out because that means they will be black listed from obtaining credit. No credit no sales. Lots of chains have their own credit cards, I think it would be unwise for the big chains to encourage people to get into irreversible debt. In a future world where credit card transactions will be the perfect norm, it will be folly to make sure your customers can't use them, hence I think you are wrong about where the onus should be placed.
I think you are quite naive and biased about the relationship between customers and commerce. No shop wants their customers to get into debt and not get out because that means they will be black listed from obtaining credit. No credit no sales. Lots of chains have their own credit cards, I think it would be unwise for the big chains to encourage people to get into irreversible debt. In a future world where credit card transactions will be the perfect norm, it will be folly to make sure your customers can't use them, hence I think you are wrong about where the onus should be placed.
I am far from naive and have no reason whatever to be biased.
If stores did not want customers to get into debt then why on Earth would they be handing out store cards like confetti? Have a think about that, for just a little while at least, and you will find that you are contradicting yourself. These store cards come with a crippling rate of interest as standard. Please tell me of any store card that does not incur interest if you do not clear the balance every month? These store cards are often given to people who would not be able to obtain a normal credit card, again contradicting your theory that stores do not want to let people spend beyond their means. The store cards are nothing to do with the store themselves, they are provided by finance companies. Any problems that arise are between the customer and the finance company. Retail outlets do not give a Donald about customer's debts, nor do they think too far ahead. It is all about the maximum spend as fast as possible, how that spend is financed is of no consequence.
Your logic, if it exists, is a mish-mash of contradiction and simply does not make a lick of sense.
Does Scorrie have a valid argument or is he just on here to pick fault at everyone elses comments.
Not a post goes by but scorrie has to have a dig.
Everyone has their own opinion after all we live in a democracy?
But scorrie seems hell bent on arguing so I am no longer taking part and playing into his warped hands.
He is entitled to his own opinion But I for one wont be reading his arguments as it is depressing me!!!!!!
Have a nice day and "every little helps" :)
Does Scorrie have a valid argument or is he just on here to pick fault at everyone elses comments.
Not a post goes by but scorrie has to have a dig.
Everyone has their own opinion after all we live in a democracy?
But scorrie seems hell bent on arguing so I am no longer taking part and playing into his warped hands.
He is entitled to his own opinion But I for one wont be reading his arguments as it is depressing me!!!!!!
Have a nice day and "every little helps" :)
Oh aye, everyone to their own opinion, so long as it agrees with your own!!
All I asked for was a reasonable post with some substance to it, rather than you simply having a go at me.
You wrote:- "Then I realised that it was only scorrie so alls well then."
That is hardly the most constructive statement ever made, nor did it show any respect for my opinion. If you can't take it, you shouldn't dish it out in the first place!!
Oh so I am warped am I? Very reasonable stuff again, and so well said.
Margaret M.
27-Sep-07, 23:34
But scorrie seems hell bent on arguing so I am no longer taking part and playing into his warped hands.
He is entitled to his own opinion But I for one wont be reading his arguments as it is depressing me!!!!!!
I think Scorrie adds a lot to any thread to which he contributes but then I appreciate any post that is well thought out and well written whether I agree with the view stated or not. I don't consider his presenting facts to back up his opinion as being argumentative. If you find his comments depressing, then he has obviously convinced you that he is right.
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.