View Full Version : This is serious!
Evening Guys,
Can I have your thoughts on the following,
An elderly gent in his mid eighties had an accident and broke his shoulder, a day or so after returning home he had a fall and his wife, also in her eighties, was unable to move him. The fall happened at night and she didn't want to disturb the emergency services so put some pillows etc. around him on the floor until daylight, when she phoned the ambulance.
The ambulance control informed her that since there was no new injury, they would not attend. In some distress she phoned the Fire Brigade who immediately turned out a crew to assist. Fire Brigades control contacted the ambulance control and asked that an ambulance meet them at the address...they were told that without a new injury they would not attend.
Fire Brigades control asked 'If we lift this chap and injure him doing so..will you attend then?'
'Only if you injure him' was the response.
This is not a hypothetical situation, it happened a few days ago here in central Scotland..my husband was the one who authourised the Fire Brigade attendance.
Can I make it clear that my concern here is with the policy decisions made, not with the wonderful service provided by ambulance and paramedic staff.
As I said...your views please?
Karia
Oh my god, i for once dont actually know what to say!
Speechless!:confused:eek:
SandTiger
16-Sep-07, 19:25
Evening Guys,
Can I have your thoughts on the following,
...
As I said...your views please?
Karia
Yep, get everything that happened written down by those involved, see their MSP and also http://www.scottishambulance.com/comments.asp
SandTiger
16-Sep-07, 19:28
However expect the response to be along the line of the SAS is an emergency response service not a taxi service and because there was a delay in reporting the matter then urgent assistance was not required :roll:
However expect the response to be along the line of the SAS is an emergency response service not a taxi service and because there was a delay in reporting the matter then urgent assistance was not required :roll:
Thanks SandTiger,
As you can imagine many reports are 'winging their way'.
I don't believe that the ambulance service was informed of the delay, which had the poor chap been in shock (not unlikely) would merely have made matters more critical.:eek:
Karia
SandTiger
16-Sep-07, 19:50
Have a look at http://www.spso.org.uk/index.php also.
hth
It's a great pity the ambulance control did not have the humanity of the Fire service - like sandtiger says MSP and Ambulance head office AND a call to the local papers would not be amiss..
this is horendous, do our old folks get any consideration at all? because of his advancing years they could have made an exception surely. Disgusting just disgusting.
It's a great pity the ambulance control did not have the humanity of the Fire service - like sandtiger says MSP and Ambulance head office AND a call to the local papers would not be amiss..
All been done mate,..but have YOU seen anything in the press?!:roll:
I wish it were a one off but know it isn't...just the one I feel free to speak of!
karia
this is horendous, do our old folks get any consideration at all? because of his advancing years they could have made an exception surely. Disgusting just disgusting.
Exactly nanoo,
Also who is to say that he didn't sustain an injury during the fall?
Is his elderly wife..or indeed the Fire Brigade, supposed to assess that?:(
karia
that is almost unbelievable. I'm sure if a doctor was called and he requested an ambulance it would have been sent out, and yes when a frail 80 yr old takes a fall how can anyone say whether an injury has happened until that person has been seen by someone in the medical profession. [disgust]
Sadly it is only too true Johno!
Best break something else on the way down or you are on your todd!
What would have happened had this man not had an attentive and persistent spouse?
Karia
Name and shame the individuals involved - it will act as a warning to others.
Have they still got that pool table at the Thurso ambulance station?.......... maybe they were in the middle of a game?
souperman
16-Sep-07, 21:54
Name and shame the individuals involved - it will act as a warning to others.
Have they still got that pool table at the Thurso ambulance station?.......... maybe they were in the middle of a game?
The first posting in this thread states it took place in Cantral Scotland, nothing to do with our local service.
kwbrown111
16-Sep-07, 21:58
I think i could think that up here it wouldn't be the same as services aren't so stretched. I've every confidence in the paramedics up here. whats wrong with having a pool table, i would think that would releive boredom and keep concentration levels up
Name and shame the individuals involved - it will act as a warning to others.
Have they still got that pool table at the Thurso ambulance station?.......... maybe they were in the middle of a game?
to be honest here i think that ambulance call outs are regulated by a central office and the local ambulance stations have no control over the way they are called out.
kwbrown111
16-Sep-07, 22:01
and by the way mareng if you looked properly you would see that this was Falkirk
to be honest here i think that ambulance call outs are regulated by a central office and the local ambulance stations have no control over the way they are called out.
Hopefully they are called out to the situation they are closest to, though again that is not always the case.
I have no problem with rest rooms or leisure facilities.
Just the policy that was in place here of non attendance unless there was a new (established) injury,..a policy that probably applies nationwide.
Karia
I think if the NHS24 service was called they would have arranged an ambulance. After all if an elderly person falls you dont know if they are injured or not, and they could have schock or concussion. Only a doctor could tell if they were injured and the ambulance would have been called.
Fran is right in that a call should have been made as soon as it happened.
Too often our elderly do not wish to "disturb" anyone during the night and surely it is time that they are made more aware that doctors, paramedics etc., are on duty; they are being paid; they want to help, it is why they are in the job. They would be upset to know that someone didn't call for them for fear of "bothering" them.
And as to having a pool table for passing the time; what the heck is wrong with that? What do the ambulance service, fire service etc., etc., do when they are not out on a call - sit in their vehicles with the engines running ready to go in a split second? Get real mereng - there is no naming and shaming required in this instance; are you seriously suggesting that our paramedics were in the middle of a pool game and ignored the telephone; go channel your righteous indignation to somewhere that needs it. As has been said before, it is the central office that makes the decisions. Local crews do not know a call is made until their control alerts them.
karia that could allmost be a horror story.
Both in their 80s but the authorities give them aggro.
I know full well that rules have to be followed-don't know what to say now-80+-down-distressed call from partener also 80+ hold on love must check the rule book here-'there is a lad drunk as a skunk 'fallen over coming out of the pub in the high st,he might be hurt-I'll send the ambulance there-
Dashed sad post karia.I could woffle on for hours about this I shall just close my eyes an get on with life-an try not to fall over;)
That is a horrific story. Too late for those involved but hope something is done about it. Unfortunately we are hearing about these type of incidents too often. What is happening in this country? It seems common sense is disappearing.[disgust]
NickInTheNorth
17-Sep-07, 15:24
In no way do I wish to be an apologist for the Ambulance service concerned, I think the reaction is totally disgusting!
BUT (you knew there was going to be a but didn't you :) )
It would be interesting to know exactly what the elderly lady concerned actually said when she called the ambulance service. Without knowing that very important detail it is very difficult to know if in fact it sounded as though she simply wanted the ambulance crew to come along to lift the husband back to his feet, or if she wanted him assesed to see if there were any new injuries. It would be nice to think that the ambulance service would respond in a humaitarian way for all calls, but they really do not have the resources to turn out for whatever folks want. Once the call had been made and assesment made that no ambulance was required then I am not surprised that even when the fire crew asked for attendance it was turned down.
Whitewater
17-Sep-07, 16:40
I know several ambulance men and have seen them at work, they are always compassionate when attending patients, elderly or otherwise. As has already been said all ambulance calls go the central control office, local personnel are not aware of the situation unless they are called by central control. It depends really on what information has been passed on to them as to the manner in which they respond.
As for the people who are hurling ctiticism at the emergency services for having pool table or TV in the centre, they don't really know what they are talking about. These items help to keep the crews awake and alert, it can be a long night sometimes if they are not called out.
Perhaps these critics are the same ones who hurl stones and abuse at the emergency services while they are at work.
Its ashame that it happened but the elderly woman should have phoned there and then and got an ambulance i know if it was my better half i wouldnt have let her lie there all night.Its a bit like haveing a sore tooth if u dont make a big deal of it u have to wait ages to get it fixed.
I think if the NHS24 service was called they would have arranged an ambulance. After all if an elderly person falls you dont know if they are injured or not, and they could have schock or concussion. Only a doctor could tell if they were injured and the ambulance would have been called.
Sorry Fran but the ambulance service refused to attend and contacted NHS24 and gave them the problem to sort out..they phoned the Fire brigade who attended.
Eddie, if the ambulance had been called 'there and then' their response would have been the same...not to attend and she would have been left even more frightened in the middle of the night.
What would have happened in this instance had the Fire Brigade decided not to attend?
Karia
In no way do I wish to be an apologist for the Ambulance service concerned, I think the reaction is totally disgusting!
BUT (you knew there was going to be a but didn't you :) )
It would be interesting to know exactly what the elderly lady concerned actually said when she called the ambulance service. Without knowing that very important detail it is very difficult to know if in fact it sounded as though she simply wanted the ambulance crew to come along to lift the husband back to his feet, or if she wanted him assesed to see if there were any new injuries. It would be nice to think that the ambulance service would respond in a humaitarian way for all calls, but they really do not have the resources to turn out for whatever folks want. Once the call had been made and assesment made that no ambulance was required then I am not surprised that even when the fire crew asked for attendance it was turned down.
Hi Nick,
You made a few salient points there, which I will reply to if I may.
Whatever the elderly lady may have said to the ambulance control, and I am not privvy to that, she was not in a position to gauge her husbands condition as she isn't medically trained...but he had an extant broken shoulder and a subsequent fall...at 80+! It's hardly using the ambulance as a taxi service is it?
The Fire Brigade are also in a position where they do not have the resources to turn out to 'everything'..though thankfully the humanity to turn out to most...but not the medical expertise to move patients about.
Had the Fire Brigade not attended , the chap would probably have gone into shock..or, his wife would have attempted to get him up and caused herself an injury, in which case the ambulance would have turned out......result!:roll:
What if the Fire brigade had caused some damage( new or to the extant injury) whilst lifting him?
BUT...I don't think you are entirely wrong!
A properly joined up care provision for the elderly would (surely!) make certain that someone was assigned to the assessment of such falls and the returning of the person to a position of relative comfort.
It may not be the job of the ambulance service,..it sure ain't the job of the Fire Brigade!
Karia
ats really shocking karia, bloody disgrace infact!!
somethin really should be said til prevent it fie happenin again, poor wifie, think how distressed she wid o bin, for her poor husband :(
of course e services must hev policies, ats a definate but i think e phone people should go on some kind o course til train them on how til assess a situation an then apply some common sense.
well done til yer husband, im sure e auld wifie thought o him as a hero, as do i too now :D
Have they still got that pool table at the Thurso ambulance station?.......... maybe they were in the middle of a game?
i da ken aboot thurso but i hev nothin but praise for e ambulance service in weik. wi workin wi e auld folk ye do tend til use their service more so than usual. iv never been kept waitin for long in an emergency.
ats really shocking karia, bloody disgrace infact!!
somethin really should be said til prevent it fie happenin again, poor wifie, think how distressed she wid o bin, for her poor husband :(
of course e services must hev policies, ats a definate but i think e phone people should go on some kind o course til train them on how til assess a situation an then apply some common sense.
well done til yer husband, im sure e auld wifie thought o him as a hero, as do i too now :D
i da ken aboot thurso but i hev nothin but praise for e ambulance service in weik. wi workin wi e auld folk ye do tend til use their service more so than usual. iv never been kept waitin for long in an emergency.
Thanks trix,
Sadly folks in the ambulance service are being blocked from providing this service and the Fire Brigade are stepping into the breach.
A lot of old folk fall and break limbs,..not a lot spontaneously combust!
If you or yours had a bad fall, would you want a fire engine and associated personnel to attend,.... or an ambulance and a paramedic?
Simple, isn't it?
Karia
It's a sad reflection, Karia, that our older folks expect so little and receive less at the expense of others. I'm appalled by your story and I really don't know what "protocols" exist in the ambulance service here in Caithness. I'd like to think there are few or none but no doubt someone will correct me.
;)
,snip>
Too often our elderly do not wish to "disturb" anyone during the night and surely it is time that they are made more aware that doctors, paramedics etc., are on duty; they are being paid; they want to help, it is why they are in the job. They would be upset to know that someone didn't call for them for fear of "bothering" them.
And as to having a pool table for passing the time; what the heck is wrong with that? Local crews do not know a call is made until their control alerts them.<snip>
Torvaig - you are wasting your typing skills here. Mereng/ang or is it Meringue? wouldn't even begin to understand the dedication of any frontline NHS staff. Nuff said - good post Torvaig.
Fran is right in that a call should have been made as soon as it happened.
Too often our elderly do not wish to "disturb" anyone during the night and surely it is time that they are made more aware that doctors, paramedics etc., are on duty; they are being paid; they want to help, it is why they are in the job. They would be upset to know that someone didn't call for them for fear of "bothering" them.
And as to having a pool table for passing the time; what the heck is wrong with that? What do the ambulance service, fire service etc., etc., do when they are not out on a call - sit in their vehicles with the engines running ready to go in a split second? Get real mereng - there is no naming and shaming required in this instance; are you seriously suggesting that our paramedics were in the middle of a pool game and ignored the telephone; go channel your righteous indignation to somewhere that needs it. As has been said before, it is the central office that makes the decisions. Local crews do not know a call is made until their control alerts them.
Well said Torvaig, I totally agree.
Fran is right in that a call should have been made as soon as it happened.
Too often our elderly do not wish to "disturb" anyone during the night and surely it is time that they are made more aware that doctors, paramedics etc., are on duty; they are being paid; they want to help, it is why they are in the job. They would be upset to know that someone didn't call for them for fear of "bothering" them.
And as to having a pool table for passing the time; what the heck is wrong with that? What do the ambulance service, fire service etc., etc., do when they are not out on a call - sit in their vehicles with the engines running ready to go in a split second? Get real mereng - there is no naming and shaming required in this instance; are you seriously suggesting that our paramedics were in the middle of a pool game and ignored the telephone; go channel your righteous indignation to somewhere that needs it. As has been said before, it is the central office that makes the decisions. Local crews do not know a call is made until their control alerts them.
Well said, Torvaig!
I have nothing but praise for the ambulance service - unfortunately I've had plenty of experience of them in recent years.
I think quite a lot of people, not only the elderly, can feel really confused and anxious about who to call now that few GPs provide an out of hours service.
It's so sad that the elderly couple in this case appear to have had little, if any, support from friends, family, neighbours...it can be so reassuring to have a contact number for someone who can pop round and help sort things out.
I wonder if they had any care package arranged through social services? And consequently an emergency contact number for them?
Here, if the gentleman had been hospitalised with his shoulder injury, I would have expected them to be in the care of the Hospital Discharge Team for a month after his return home. I do understand that elderly folk in particular are often very reluctant to accept this sort of service, because a) they don't want to be a "burden" on anybody and b) they find it intrusive. However, in Edinburgh at least, I think it very unlikely that this elderly couple would have been left to fend for themselves, if they had no relatives close by.
NickInTheNorth
18-Sep-07, 09:39
Hi Nick,
You made a few salient points there, which I will reply to if I may.
Whatever the elderly lady may have said to the ambulance control, and I am not privvy to that, she was not in a position to gauge her husbands condition as she isn't medically trained...but he had an extant broken shoulder and a subsequent fall...at 80+! It's hardly using the ambulance as a taxi service is it?I totally agree, unfortunately as has been pointed out old folk are very good at not "troubling" anyone, so they often downplay problems. Depending on what details she gave to the ambulance service they may have made a judgement that all she wanted was help to get the gentleman to his feet. It is a wrong judgement, and I really hope that my extrapolation of a possible course of events from the very sparse facts is correct. Unfortunately I suspect that it is closer to the mark that some nameless target driven manager has come up with a policy that precludes such call outs.
The Fire Brigade are also in a position where they do not have the resources to turn out to 'everything'..though thankfully the humanity to turn out to most...but not the medical expertise to move patients about.Let us not forget that most Fire Brigades are actually Fire and Rescue Services (though I don't know about your specific one). Again I totally support what you say about them also not having the resources to turn out to everything (which is another black mark on modern "society") they do however seem to have a wider remit, and thankfully a slightly more humane outlook. The only part of that statement I would take any issue with is regarding moving patients. It is part of the training of most Fire Services to deal with casualties, and they do a brilliant job of it - that they should not have to deal with the situation you have described however is not in question.
Had the Fire Brigade not attended , the chap would probably have gone into shock..or, his wife would have attempted to get him up and caused herself an injury, in which case the ambulance would have turned out......result!
You know that I know that, and anyone reading the details given on this thread know that, but once again I have to revert to what I said earlier, the ambulance controller may not have been given a clear enough picture by the elderly lady caller.
What if the Fire brigade had caused some damage( new or to the extant injury) whilst lifting him?
BUT...I don't think you are entirely wrong!
A properly joined up care provision for the elderly would (surely!) make certain that someone was assigned to the assessment of such falls and the returning of the person to a position of relative comfort.
It may not be the job of the ambulance service,..it sure ain't the job of the Fire Brigade
Karia
I totally agree that there should be provision for help for the eldely in situations such as this, however whilst we as a society are prepared to be governed by politicians that only value sound bites and statistics we are doomed to have a decreasingly competent care provision. Indeed we are doomed to get to exactly where Margaret Thatcher said we had arrived at many years ago. At the current rate of degradation I honestly believe that there will be "no such thing as society" within my lifetime. (Using a very narrow definition of society in which providing for the needs of those that cannot provide for themselves is central to all government actions.)
Stories such as these shock me, but no longer surprise me. They highlight to me just why I am ashamed to be British!
If this sort of thing, which I am 100% certain is a great deal more common (despite being despicable) than it should be made it into the media more often, I am sure ignorant jobsworths like these and the cretins who make up such stupid rules would be if not lined up against the wall and shot (as they surely deserve) then at least lightly grilled over metaphorical hot coals.
lady penelope
18-Sep-07, 19:37
Karia
This is shocking! Most elderly people don't want to 'bother' anybody when something goes wrong. Cutbacks in the NHS has centralised a lot of services and doesn't make it easy for infirm people to utilise. Had she called her GP I'm sure the outcome would have been so different:(
I just hope if I get to 80+ I would get better treatment.
Karia
This is shocking! Most elderly people don't want to 'bother' anybody when something goes wrong. Cutbacks in the NHS has centralised a lot of services and doesn't make it easy for infirm people to utilise. Had she called her GP I'm sure the outcome would have been so different:(
I just hope if I get to 80+ I would get better treatment.
Hi Lady penelope,
Unfortunately due to the ambulance Service's policy the GP would not have got a different response.
The ambulance service knocked this back to NHS24 and they called the Fire Brigade....not the GP ..a bit backside foremost isn't it!:roll:
If you do not have a new injury...the ambulance will not attend no matter who calls them.
I wonder how long it would take the average 80+ year old lying on the floor in a state of shock with an extant broken shoulder before it was deemed a 'new' medical situation and responded to.
I want to make it abundantly clear that my problem here is with the 'policy' in place.. and not the sterling work provided by our ambulance crews.
Karia
Likewise I agree with Karia, the ambulance staff themselves are truly beyond reproach and do a truly superb job despite 'the system'. It's silly rules that are the problem, although I do also think some 'selective hearing' when an obvious problem situation is being phoned in would enable common sense to prevail over folly.
I am aware of a similar but actually much more sinister situation that made the last days of a very dear old lady and mother of a friend of mine a living hell when she passed away in a Glasgow hospital that makes me look sidewise when hearing about stupidity being buried by beaurocracy in the NHS in general. I can be little biased.
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