View Full Version : Should the McCanns be punished?
They left their child alone in a foreign country without supervision. They have paid the ultimate price for their negligence, but should they be charged with neglecting their children?
NickInTheNorth
12-Sep-07, 15:59
They left their child alone in a foreign country without supervision. They have paid the ultimate price for their negligence, but should they be charged with neglecting their children?
an unequivocal yes!
If nothing else it may help to spread the message that leaving a child of that age is not an appropriate course of action.
porshiepoo
12-Sep-07, 16:03
I've gone through several stages regarding this issue. First I would have said yes they should be punished, then I said no they've been through enough, but now I'm back to feeling that yes they should be punished.
At the end of the day poor Maddie went missing because they left her and her siblings alone in an apartment, in a foreign country, with unlocked doors while they went off and had dinner. And they didn't just do this once, they did it several times.
If it had been a less educated family that had done this then I think the whole thing would have been handled differently by the press and the public - they would have been held accountable from the off. For some reason the general public have been reluctant to actually acknowledge that the whole sorry, sad story is down to one thing only - Maddies parents failed her and let her and her siblings down by leaving them alone the way they did.
Assuming of course that the parents aren't responsible in some other evil way also. I really don't know whether they had something to do with her actual death - if in fact she is dead - but there are lots of things that seem really suss! Would such well educated, responsible, pillars of the community such as two GP's really think it was OK to do something like leave toddlers alone in a foreign country with unlocked doors?????????
If they're innocent of murder then I think the twins are at risk of being disregarded in the same way in the future.
I hope and pray that Maddie is alive and well somewhere but the chances of that are looking very slim.
cuddlepop
12-Sep-07, 16:11
It has to be a yes,otherwise it could be construed as acceptable to leave your child and we're all in agreement its not.:(
YES YES YES...Anyone else in england would have social services on the back for leaving three children alone,so the mccanns are both guilty of neglect...
YES YES YES...Anyone else in england would have social services on the back for leaving three children alone,so the mccanns are both guilty of neglect...
Do you think the twins should be made wards of court?:confused
no i dont think they should be made ward of court but i do think that they should be punished for leaving all three children alone.They should never have been left alone at home never mind on holiday...
Why would i want the other two to be taken, things will happen in there own time and by the right judgement once the rest of the case is dealt with...
NickInTheNorth
12-Sep-07, 16:54
Do you think the twins should be made wards of court?:confused
I'm not certain that being made wards of court would be the best way to proceed. But I do think that some continuing support and observation of the family as a whole may be appropriate. Certainly should have a social worker assigned to help the family deal with the reality of looking after children.
connieb19
12-Sep-07, 17:02
I dont think the Macanns can be punished much more than they are just now BUT they must be charged as a message to other people that it is not acceptable to leave young children unattended. They went for a night out leaving 3 babies under the age of 4, anything could have happened, it just so happens that the worst possible thing did happen but what if they had wandered out into the swimming pool or electricuted themselves, who's fault would it have been then?
After all that has happened they have never said they were wrong to leave the kids, they still say they were responsible parents, they need to accept some of the responsibility for whatever happened to madeleine.
SandTiger
12-Sep-07, 17:05
... Why would i want the other two to be taken, things will happen in there own time and by the right judgement once the rest of the case is dealt with...
Wardship proceedings does not mean that a child is automatically placed in alternative care, it means that a the Court has the ultimate say in relation to significant matters which relate to the Ward (child). Since the introduction of The Children Act 1989 Wardship Proceedings have been used less and less as a tool for legal remedy. The Local Authority can and may bring an application under the Children Act which would be dealt by The Family Court if it is deemed appropriate. This would be aside from any alleged criminal matter.
Indeed they should! They are responsible for her disappearance.
I had this arguement with someone the other day I said (the day they returned to britain) well social services should be around having a word (for leaving the children alone in the 1st place) and their response was "oh dont be so stupid people do it all the time on holiday!!!" Whenever I am abroad on holiday the restaurants are always full of children sleeping in buggys and I wouldnt expect anything less! I wouldnt even leave my young child sleeping or not, alone in my house here for 5 minutes let alone abroad!
Anything could have happened, the apartment could have went up in flames but the parents who are meant to be responsible for those children where out having dinner! And from what the newspapers say it wasnt the 1st time on the holiday their children had been left!
im in know doubt they should be punished, and their other children removed from them until this case is solved
I know we cant even begin to imagine what they are going through at the moment its a parents worst nightmare, but i do believe they should be charged with neglect for leaving the kids alone.
As others have said if only to make them realise the consequences of their actions, even if Madeleine hadnt gone missing any number of things could of happened.
If nothing is done about it then it will send out the wrong message to others some of who willl think its ok to leave their kids while they go out and enjoy themselves, these kids were in a creche every day so why they didnt take full advantage of the child minding service god only knows, at the end of the day its Madeleine who has suffered the most and we shouldnt forgot that no matter how much sympathy we feel for her parents:~(
lady penelope
12-Sep-07, 19:19
Sadly ,yes.It is neglect whichever way you look at it.
orkneylass
12-Sep-07, 20:36
If the abductor has climbed in through the window while the parents were asleep next door, rather than in plain sight of the front door to the apartment 50 yards away, would that still have been neglect? Do parents generally get up every 30 minutes in the night to check on their children? Would it be neglect to let children sleep in a room at one end of your house while you were at the other? Don't you think these poor people have suffered enough for all of this? I can't believe how callous people can be...mind you Pontius Pilot knew how viscious mob mentality can get.......
All I can say is that I would never leave my child alone especially in a different country. I would never leave my child alone here.
They have to live with that fact for the rest of their lives.
I do hope she will turn up, for their sakes.
connieb19
12-Sep-07, 20:54
If the abductor has climbed in through the window while the parents were asleep next door, rather than in plain sight of the front door to the apartment 50 yards away, would that still have been neglect? Do parents generally get up every 30 minutes in the night to check on their children? Would it be neglect to let children sleep in a room at one end of your house while you were at the other? Don't you think these poor people have suffered enough for all of this? I can't believe how callous people can be...mind you Pontius Pilot knew how viscious mob mentality can get.......
That's not what happened though is it?
If the abductor has climbed in through the window while the parents were asleep next door, rather than in plain sight of the front door to the apartment 50 yards away, would that still have been neglect? Do parents generally get up every 30 minutes in the night to check on their children? Would it be neglect to let children sleep in a room at one end of your house while you were at the other? Don't you think these poor people have suffered enough for all of this? I can't believe how callous people can be...mind you Pontius Pilot knew how viscious mob mentality can get.......
It is not a question of being callous. I doubt there is anyone here that is not saddened by their loss. However, some (I would say many) people are not comfortable with how the children were left. If the children had woken up or something had happened in the flat the parents would not have heard them in the situation they put themselves in - it is a simple as that.
Living in Caithness I was always happy to let my children play when they got to a certain age as long as I new where they were and who they were with. Not that we have moved south, even though we are in a safe area, we are exercising more control.
I remember going on holiday with my 3 children (aged 2, 8 and 10 at the time). It was a closed family resort well off the main road. The children were either with us with their activity group (which they were signed in and out of) or if we wanted a meal or our own (which happened twice in 2 weeks) we payed the extra for a sitter.
It is important not to smother children and things can happen even to the most conscientious parent - parents still need to exercise control and take responsibility for theirs and their children's actions.
If the abductor has climbed in through the window while the parents were asleep next door, rather than in plain sight of the front door to the apartment 50 yards away, would that still have been neglect? Do parents generally get up every 30 minutes in the night to check on their children? Would it be neglect to let children sleep in a room at one end of your house while you were at the other? Don't you think these poor people have suffered enough for all of this? I can't believe how callous people can be...mind you Pontius Pilot knew how viscious mob mentality can get.......
This is about FACT not FICTION........ FACT Madeleine & the twins were left unatended and why anyone would think that its ok to do is beyond me.
They broke the law plain and simple, yes i feel for them but i feel more for madeleine who seems to be forgotten here, they need to face up to theIR lack of parental responsabilites which contrabuted to her abduction no matter how you put it[disgust]
NickInTheNorth
12-Sep-07, 21:08
If the abductor has climbed in through the window while the parents were asleep next door, rather than in plain sight of the front door to the apartment 50 yards away, would that still have been neglect? Do parents generally get up every 30 minutes in the night to check on their children? Would it be neglect to let children sleep in a room at one end of your house while you were at the other? Don't you think these poor people have suffered enough for all of this? I can't believe how callous people can be...mind you Pontius Pilot knew how viscious mob mentality can get.......
Bad things can happen, no matter what precautions are taken.
However to suggest that because bad things can happen even if you are careful does not and should not absolve parents of their responsibilities. Parents should take normal sensible care of their children.
That does not mean the need to get up every thirty minutes to check. But to leave three under 4's in a strange house in a strange location by themselves whilst out enjoying yourself...
I would just like to say that all the parents in the group who left their kids should be charged with neglect not just the McCanns
changilass
12-Sep-07, 21:12
Not only should the Macans be investigated by social services, but also the other parents that were known to do the same in the resort.
No one can totally protect their kids from harm but there is a level of responsibility that all parents should be able to manage.
connieb19
12-Sep-07, 21:16
I posted this on the other thread, maybe it's more appropriate to this one but it echos my sentiments exactly.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22402077-5000117,00.html
rockchick
12-Sep-07, 21:27
If the abductor has climbed in through the window while the parents were asleep next door, rather than in plain sight of the front door to the apartment 50 yards away, would that still have been neglect? Do parents generally get up every 30 minutes in the night to check on their children? Would it be neglect to let children sleep in a room at one end of your house while you were at the other? Don't you think these poor people have suffered enough for all of this? I can't believe how callous people can be...mind you Pontius Pilot knew how viscious mob mentality can get.......
In a word...no. Neglect can be considered a legal concept, where one fails to do something that the "reasonable man" (another legal concept) would do in the same circumstance(s). I would think it is considered reasonable protection in our society for a responsible adult to be sleeping in the same building as their children. Had the McCanns been sleeping in the room next door, and someone snuck in and stole Madeleine, they would not have been negligent, as they had done everything reasonable under the circumstances to protect her.
The courts could bestow no higher punishment than that which has already been meted out, however!!! if, as it sounds like from other postings, this is common occurence when people go on holiday, perhaps the McCanns should be punished by the courts to set a precedent, so that this type of behaviour may change and this won't happen again.
SandTiger
12-Sep-07, 21:29
If the abductor has climbed in through the window while the parents were asleep next door, rather than in plain sight of the front door to the apartment 50 yards away, would that still have been neglect? Do parents generally get up every 30 minutes in the night to check on their children? Would it be neglect to let children sleep in a room at one end of your house while you were at the other? Don't you think these poor people have suffered enough for all of this? I can't believe how callous people can be...mind you Pontius Pilot knew how viscious mob mentality can get.......
I guess the obvious response is; put the alleged abduction on the back burner for a moment and consider a different angle. What if a fire was to have broken out and all 3 infants were to have been wiped out by smoke inhalation whilst the parents were out dining. What would your feelings on neglect be then, in fact, what do you think the general consensus be?
The McCann's must have considered that there was a risk in leaving these infants alone but chose to discount that risk prior to going out to their meal.
The apparent abduction has raised great public sympathy and much hope because any rational person would want to see that child return unharmed but that does not detract from the initial actions.
Had there not been the issue of a disappearance as opposed to a more tangible set of circumstances then I have no doubt that Joe Public would hold an entirely different view then has been held until the last week or so.
changilass
12-Sep-07, 21:34
I don't think the McCans should be punished simply to set a precedent or to show others its not right, IMHO the majority of folks already know what is right.
They should be investigated for what they did as should any other family doing the same.
connieb19
12-Sep-07, 21:42
I don't think the McCans should be punished simply to set a precedent or to show others its not right, IMHO the majority of folks already know what is right.
.
I actually find it frightening the amount of people who think the McCanns have done no wrong. These Dotors are supposed to be well educated but yet they say they were "niave". I'm sorry but being niave is not a valid excuse for their actions.
Something I've noticed a lot over the years though, is that a lot of people who think they are well educated have hardly any common sense at all. :confused Just a little common sense would tell someone why it's not safe to leave toddlers unattended, for all sorts of reasons, abduction being one of the last things to worry about.
All the children could have been taken. The parents have and will regret the decision for the rest of their lives. Was it not reported that friends with them had also left children in rooms and were continually checking them? I am not sure if child minders were with them or not though.
SandTiger
12-Sep-07, 21:48
All the children could have been taken. The parents have and will regret the decision for the rest of their lives. Was it not reported that friends with them had also left children in rooms and were continually checking them? I am not sure if child minders were with them or not though.
It would appear that childminders were available but not taken advantage of...
They left their child alone in a foreign country without supervision. They have paid the ultimate price for their negligence, but should they be charged with neglecting their children?
an unequivocal yes!
My first thoughts when I read some this thread was that the org has had a severe dose of sanctimony. Theres plenty of it about so why not use it? Theres always a mug who will bare the brunt of it. In this case two.
Theres no defence against the charges.
So why do I feel differently?
I notice about a third of people voted no in the pole.I vote no too, not because they wernt negligent but because i'm a parent.
SandTiger
12-Sep-07, 21:52
I don't think the McCans should be punished simply to set a precedent or to show others its not right, IMHO the majority of folks already know what is right.
They should be investigated for what they did as should any other family doing the same.
And if the outcome of the investigation points to negligence or gross negligence would some form of rehabilitation be in order?
i for one wouldnt and have never left my child in that way, but im on the fence here as we dont have all the facts, yes they left 3 children unsupervised and at present we are lead to believe one was abducted, as she is missing, i just dont get where all this stuff about the kids being sedated came from, does anyone actually have any proof, no they dont its speculation, right now there are guilty of child neglect and until ive heard proper evidence that they have had something to do with the disaperence im not going to believe the media
The long and short of it is the negligence shown by thousands of parents whilst abroad is shocking. I see children and parents abroad that have me literally on edge most of my holiday. People seem to think because they are on holiday the normal rules don't apply to safety or general common sense and this I find absolutely ridiculous. I remember being in one hotel where there were regularly searches for a little one who was most often found playing in the lifts :eek: did it make the parents keep a closer eye on her NO. They just assumed that the staff would. Awful behaviour:mad:
That's not what happened though is it?
and that's retrospect then..happily!
does the 'outcome' affect your view of the 'process'?
Karia
its not just abroad, we went camping this year to embo in dornoch and the amount of kids who were allowed to run about on their own was unreal, it was like just because its a holiday place that nothing bad can happen! my god people get a grip! bad things happen all the time! i never leave my kids unattended, whilst the little ones in bed i still use a monitor, cant bare the thought of somethig happening to her, also people who think that when on holiday its ok to consume alot of alcohol is unreal, these types of people im afraid should not be allowed kids, i always know where my little one is and i always know she is safe
sorry rant over!
changilass
12-Sep-07, 22:12
The 'outcome' is what is giving the Macans sympathy, because it is such a bad outcome should not stop them from being investigated and apropriate action taken.
The long and short of it is the negligence shown by thousands of parents whilst abroad is shocking. I see children and parents abroad that have me literally on edge most of my holiday. People seem to think because they are on holiday the normal rules don't apply to safety or general common sense and this I find absolutely ridiculous. I remember being in one hotel where there were regularly searches for a little one who was most often found playing in the lifts :eek: did it make the parents keep a closer eye on her NO. They just assumed that the staff would. Awful behaviour:mad:
Thats a good post corgiman and it renforces my point.
Millions of parents take similar risks, some more than others but no one could ever imagine something like this happening.
I go tp Blackpool most years with my youngest daughter. When she was 11 she wanted to wander the pleasure beach on her own. I was uncertain but trusted her and we were always within touch by mobile phone. I was in the park too but just relaxing. Imagine if anything had happened to her?
I understand the outburst of morality but I dont go along with it.
SandTiger
12-Sep-07, 22:16
The 'outcome' is what is giving the Macans sympathy, because it is such a bad outcome should not stop them from being investigated and apropriate action taken.
I'm just wondering what that appropriate action should be? :)
changilass
12-Sep-07, 22:23
That wouldn't be up to me to decide Sandtiger, it will be decided by social services and the courts
SandTiger
12-Sep-07, 22:24
... I understand the outburst of morality but I dont go along with it.
Call me cynic but... could it be more an outburst of potentially 'someones had one over on me' which might now be lurking at the backs of a few minds?
SandTiger
12-Sep-07, 22:34
Yep, but you said...
I don't think the McCans should be punished simply to set a precedent or to show others its not right, IMHO the majority of folks already know what is right.
They should be investigated for what they did as should any other family doing the same.
I was just genuinely wondering how society should deal with this whole situation if:
a) They are found to be negligent.
b) Grossly negligent.
highlander
12-Sep-07, 22:36
I do think the should be punished for neglect, did the papers not say that one of the other doctors went to check his child, as he had been sick? surely the other doctors who left thier children should also be punished?
It may reinforce your point gleeber but neither does it make your view correct as that is not the way I look at it. I think the way people neglect their children on holiday is horrendous, I am also sure that 90% of these people hire safety deposit boxes for their cash and valuables and then treat their absolutely most precious treasures with such blatant disregard.
Call me cynic but... could it be more an outburst of potentially 'someones had one over on me' which might now be lurking at the backs of a few minds?
Thats an interesting idea. not sure what you mean. Do you want to say more about it?
It may reinforce your point gleeber but neither does it make your view correct as that is not the way I look at it. I think the way people neglect their children on holiday is horrendous, I am also sure that 90% of these people hire safety deposit boxes for their cash and valuables and then treat their absolutely most precious treasures with such blatant disregard.
I dont disagree with you. I just feel different.
Does anybody want to defend the druggy parents who left their child with an alcoholic grandmother who, in a moment of thoughtlessness let a pit-bull terrier in the house and ended up with a dead savaged toddler?
Don't most parents leave their children with their grandparents at some time, I know I did regularly, and my mother had a terrier as well.
I can't understand why people are writing to newspapers complaining that "somebody must be made to pay" and that the parents should be punished for leaving the child knowing what the situation was.
A man in Glasgow, only this last week, has been fined for leaving his children, who were a lot older than two, alone whilst he went out to work. I have little doubt that they are now on the "At Risk" register.
Outpourings of sympathy for them anybody? Oh, and just because "everybody does it" does not make a thing right or that it should be ignored.
i get freaked out by the thought of young children playing in the streets of wick unsupervised.
in my book that is negligence.
but then again i come from a place where small children are never let out sight, for pure saftey reasons.
we went to majorca a couple years ago.. the apt. only had the one bed room and then a pull out bed in the living room. we just piled the boys in the bedroom with us, as i was afraid to let them sleep in the other room one in a travel cot and the other on a pull out bed. as i was afraid that sam would get up and open the balcony door.. and somehow fall over!
yes. leaving your children unattended is neglect.
tragically they have paid the ultimate price.. thankfully the twins are unharmed.. it could have been a lot worse. all my sypathies goes out to the family.. but at the end of the day they did leave their children alone.. and for frivilous reasons.. that is where they are in the wrong.
SandTiger
12-Sep-07, 22:58
Thats an interesting idea. not sure what you mean. Do you want to say more about it?
I'm saying I feel, rightly or wrongly, that there has been an element of 'smoke & mirrors' here. Be it media manipulation, manipulation of the public, a healthy fund-raising exercise along with some very high profile intervention, some fairly expensive lawyers, Kingsley Napley don't come cheap at the end of the day.
All this served to detract from the original issue of leaving the infants alone whilst they had the publics sympathies and hopes.
Suddenly there is a massive turn of events - They are named as suspects and there is mass speculation on the potential evidence that may or may not justify that or exist.
Now the point I'm making is over the last week they have gone from saints who have met up with the pope and other modern icon to potential child killers - Therefor it would be a perfectly normal reaction for someone to feel they may have been duped or at least harbour such a nagging doubt.
The 'outcome' is what is giving the Macans sympathy, because it is such a bad outcome should not stop them from being investigated and apropriate action taken.
The 'outcome' is as yet unknown.
The 'hypothesis' of what may have been, is much bandied about.
'Everything' should be investigated, and nothing should be decided without evidence to support it.
All I ever asked was that the 'strongly opinionated' should wait until the facts are in.......is that less than reasonable?
This is my last post on the subject as arguing further is simply pointless.
karia
changilass
12-Sep-07, 23:01
There is already evidence that they left their kids unattended, that is what is being discussed on here.
Now the point I'm making is over the last week they have gone from saints who have met up with the pope and other modern icon to potential child killers - Therefor it would be a perfectly normal reaction for someone to feel they may have been duped or at least harbour such a nagging doubt.
I dont see that being the case on the org. The McCanns have always had a tough time.
Alternatively and the opposite to your idea, could it be that now they are appearing guilty, no one wants to be seen to be supporting them?
If it was teachers who were taking kids on a foreign holiday and they were the ones that were slapping it up in a restaurant, would they be given the same amount of sympathy?:confused
connieb19
12-Sep-07, 23:09
If it was teachers who were taking kids on a foreign holiday and they were the ones that were slapping it up in a restaurant, would they be given the same amount of sympathy?:confusedOr a Portugese babysitter who nipped out to the bar for half an hour?
I support the poor child and hope for her sake that this all turns out wrong and that she is alive somewhere and will be found. I do not support parents who put their pleasures before their childrens safety though.
I personally am not going to vote on this poll, which I think Rheghead need not have started, the McCanns are in a no win situation as far as this poll is concerned.
We, the .Orgers know nothing at all about the case other than what the Media feeds us, and if you are all hungry enough for blood then keep reading the gutter press. We all have opinions on the case, but, and I hate to quote a biblical phrase, "Let he without evil cast the first stone", so therefore I am not casting the first stone. Are you all so innocent? I think not.
There is already evidence that they left their kids unattended, that is what is being discussed on here.
Surely everything is open to discussion. Theres no doubt they are guilty. The point is should they be punished?
Where would you place my negligence in Blackpool Jaws?
Somewhere between the pit bull case and the mcCanns or was i more lucky than them.
It's shocking to compare the pit bull case with the McCanns but sanctimony knows no borders.
I personally am not going to vote on this poll, which I think Rheghead need not have started, the McCanns are in a no win situation as far as this poll is concerned.
We, the .Orgers know nothing at all about the case other than what the Media feeds us, and if you are all hungry enough for blood then keep reading the gutter press. We all have opinions on the case, but, and I hate to quote a biblical phrase, "Let he without evil cast the first stone", so therefore I am not casting the first stone. Are you all so innocent? I think not.
I agree with you !00% The fact is that 99.9% of us do not leave ourkids alone in a portugese resort unless we so arrogantly confident that nothing will happen to them.
SandTiger
12-Sep-07, 23:18
I dont see that being the case on the org. The McCanns have always had a tough time.
I've not followed the org. debates until the last week so my view was formed upon what snippets of media I have been unable to avoid.
Alternatively and the opposite to your idea, could it be that now they are appearing guilty, no one wants to be seen to be supporting them?
That is very much with my idea, human nature being what human nature is. However the point is they were given a huge amount of leeway whilst the public hoped and prayed that the child may turn up - Nothing else mattered at that stage. This now appears to have changed as one could only expect.
i agree wi ye karia, i think things hev all blown oot o porportion. i think e portugese police realise that they made a mess o e investigation fie day one an they are desperate til make a conviction. they mite be exaggeratin e evidence in their excitment an e media is makin it worse.
im surprised that e mccanns didna demand that e british police wis involved fie e start.
i do think e mccanns should hev a neglect charge in their police record but no punishment. ye ca help but think they been thro enough :(
i think e ither parents should get a visit fie e social worker an police an gien a good grillin aboot e responsibilities o hevin children but no charges.
this is of course is all assumin that the only thing they are guilty of is neglect. i hope time will tell, for e sake o at poor lascie :(
connieb19
12-Sep-07, 23:28
i agree wi ye karia, i think things hev all blown oot o porportion. i think e portugese police realise that they made a mess o e investigation fie day one an they are desperate til make a conviction. Wouldn't it be a lot easier for the Portugese Police to frame Robert Murat if that's the case, he'd fit the picture better than a couple of very, very responsible doctors who were a bit niave?
I agree with you !00% The fact is that 99.9% of us do not leave ourkids alone in a portugese resort unless we so arrogantly confident that nothing will happen to them.
Oh, comon rheghead. The only arrogance I detect in this thread is the idea you can talk for 99.99% of parents on a Portugese holidaY.
Oh, comon rheghead. The only arrogance I detect in this thread is the idea you can talk for 99.99% of parents on a Portugese holidaY.
The safety bar of our children should be raised to 100%. Do you accept that there is a lower acceptable level?????
They didn't nip back and forth to the car to get groceries, they weren't asleep in another part of the house and they weren't sitting in their garden. The bottom line is (no media hype) they left a four year old and two, two year olds alone - that is negligent!
The safety bar of our children should be raised to 100%. Do you accept that there is a lower acceptable level?????
No.
Now you are talking for other peoples children though.
What should be, and what is, are 2 different things.
Your claiming some high moral ground all to yourself.
By the way, could 5 ? marks be construed as an angry response?
Now the point I'm making is over the last week they have gone from saints who have met up with the pope and other modern icon to potential child killers - Therefor it would be a perfectly normal reaction for someone to feel they may have been duped or at least harbour such a nagging doubt.The last week has made little difference to my views about them leaving their children alone in order to go out. Everybody is focused on Madeleine because she went missing, which is understandable, but there were the even younger twins who were also left on their own as was, by all accounts, at least one child of the group who's age was even younger than the twins.
Was it beyond the wit of the group, in view of the fact that there were others with small children also, for one person to give up the odd night to stay back and look after all the children? There were enough of them to create their own creche had they taken the bother to do so. It's not as if it was only on one night that the same thing was done, it would appear that it was quite normal for them ion most, if not every night.
The others in the group who pulled the same stunt should also be appropriately dealt with as should any other holidaymakers who treat their small children in the same way.
Contrary to popular belief, that is not a call for them to be hung, drawn and quartered for public entertainment but that they be dealt with as any other British person who left babies alone at home to go to a bar. In such circumstances Social Services would, without doubt, normally keep an eye on the family and I don't see why the McCanns or their group should be treated any differently.
Try doing the same thing very night here with children of the same age and see what happens if the authorities found out. I'll guarantee they wouldn't be patting you on the back claiming you were wonderful examples of parenthood.
Try doing the same thing very night here with children of the same age and see what happens if the authorities found out. I'll guarantee they wouldn't be patting you on the back claiming you were wonderful examples of parenthood.
No ones claiming their negligence is wonderful examples. You pick a point and then charactature it. It bares no relationship to reality.
The McCanns were not in the UK and had they been Its very unlikely they would have left their children.
They were on holiday, relaxing with friends. They let their gaurds down. I wont crucify them for that.
They were on holiday, relaxing with friends. They let their gaurds down. I wont crucify them for that.
I (and I think most people) tend to be on their guard more on holiday - watch your bags, use a money belt etc. They have been through a lot, but you DON'T no matter how low your guard gets leave children that young alone!
You can't watch your children all the time and they need to grow and find their own way in life. There are risks you take and there are risks you allow this is not one of them.
Wouldn't it be a lot easier for the Portugese Police to frame Robert Murat if that's the case, he'd fit the picture better than a couple of very, very responsible doctors who were a bit niave?
they tried, but they couldna get enough on him. they hev e media on their side now. they are feedin off one anither. am just assumin the mccanns are innocent cos i just ca bring masel til think that they could do what they are accused o doin.
No ones claiming their negligence is wonderful examples. You pick a point and then charactature it. It bares no relationship to reality.
The McCanns were not in the UK and had they been Its very unlikely they would have left their children.
They were on holiday, relaxing with friends. They let their gaurds down. I wont crucify them for that.There are offences which, even if committed abroad, that a British person can be put on trial for in this Country, murder being one and certain offences against children another. Those are just two which spring readily to mind but I have no doubt there are others.
You say they were on holiday and that is different, try using that excuse if you stay a week on holiday in Blackpool.
It would appear that the police and the social Services where the McCanns live are also of the opinion that they should consider what action, if any, should be taken concerning the McCanns and their twins.
I have "caricatured" nothing. All I have done is described exactly the same circumstances but used a less exotic location and parents who are not the subject of a mass media campaign.
You assertion would appear to claim that, just because somebody is on holiday, they don't have a duty to take the same care of their children than they would at home.
The McCanns are now back in this country, they have made vary public the fact that they were willing to leave their children alone in an apartment whilst they went out with friends. As such, the local social Services have a right, if not a duty, to keep a check on them just the same as they would with any other parents if it came to their attention that they had behaved similarly.
Just because the McCanns have become Personalities does not mean that they should get special treatment.
All I have suggested is that they be treated as any other parents would be.
they tried, but they couldna get enough on him. they hev e media on their side now. they are feedin off one anither. am just assumin the mccanns are innocent cos i just ca bring masel til think that they could do what they are accused o doin.The only reason Murat was put in the frame was that a British Journalist decided she had suspicions about him because he was being a bit nosey. As soon as he was mentioned the rest of the Media leaped on the bandwagon in attempts to portray him as some kind of monster. Other than that there was absolutely nothing to connect him with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Despite that fact the Media and many of the public here had decided he was a paedophile and capable of anything. There are people here who still think he’s “getting away with it.”
If the Portuguese Police wanted to set anybody up for Madeleine’s disappearance he would have been the easiest target ever. People and the Media were desperate for it to be him and he fitted what everybody expected perfectly.
It would have been far easier to conveniently “find” DNA samples whilst they were searching his Mother’s garden, “Who, look what we’ve found!” and nobody would have considered questioning it. By the same token, how easy would it have been to “find” some sample from him at the Apartment? “Oh, look, a fibre from his clothing!” or even something with his DNA on it.
Sentenced, tried, charged and then accused in that order and everybody would have been happy. Why bother with all that, just send him to prison.
Nobody would even have tried to leap to his defence and if they had they would have been hung out to dry for making excuses and supporting a paedophile.
He would be the perfect patsy because he provided exactly what everybody wanted to believe.
It had to be yes they should never have left their children alone.
Lolabelle
13-Sep-07, 06:35
I agree that the McCanns should never have left their kids alone. But I don't think there should be any criminal charges, they are guilty of negligence, but not neglect. Who checks on their kids every half hour, ever. I think that the fact that they have lost their daughter is more than enough punishment, and that this case will be more of a deterrent for parents than the threat of the law.
I (and I think most people) tend to be on their guard more on holiday - watch your bags, use a money belt etc. They have been through a lot, but you DON'T no matter how low your guard gets leave children that young alone!
You can't watch your children all the time and they need to grow and find their own way in life. There are risks you take and there are risks you allow this is not one of them.
You know something tristan? There are millions of people who would agree with you including me.
I just happen to feel differently than you about the McCanns negligance, not because i want to but because I do.
Get it?
Unlikely.
You know something tristan? There are millions of people who would agree with you including me.
I just happen to feel differently than you about the McCanns negligance, not because i want to but because I do.
Get it?
Unlikely.
Oh, I "get" that you feel differently and there can be a lot of reasons for that.
I believe there is not a single parent who can put their hand up and say "I never made a mistake". Some mistakes happen from a momentary lapse in judgment others from a conscious decisions to do or not do something to keep your child safe. You can't mollycoddle children all their lives and you have to weigh risks so that children have a chance to be children. The risk the McCann's took is not one many other parents would take - leaving a 4 year old and two 2 year olds was not a reasonable risk for them to take.
Does anybody want to defend the druggy parents who left their child with an alcoholic grandmother who, in a moment of thoughtlessness let a pit-bull terrier in the house and ended up with a dead savaged toddler?
In that particular case, the safest thing would been to leave the child unattended.:~(
orkneylass
13-Sep-07, 08:43
I agree that the McCanns should never have left their kids alone. But I don't think there should be any criminal charges, they are guilty of negligence, but not neglect. Who checks on their kids every half hour, ever. I think that the fact that they have lost their daughter is more than enough punishment, and that this case will be more of a deterrent for parents than the threat of the law.
Thank goodness for reason and compassion from at least one person
I agree with Orklneylass and Lolabelle on this one. What good would it do to punish the McCann's for being negligent? Who would benefit from it? How would this be in any way positive? is everyone looking for their pound of flesh? Haven't they already been punished?
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Yes things do look bad for them BUT could it not be a case of the police just wanting to "tie this one up?" If I had lost my child and then was subjected to this torture on top of it I don't think I would be able to go on.yes they should not have left the kids alone BUT is it any worse than the "babysitting services" offered all around the world where you pick up the phone in your room and then reception "listens in once in a while" I personally would never ever use that kind of service but thousands of parents do everyday!How can a phone link to reception protect a child?Would they hear a fire start?,somebody creep in and abduct a sleeping child?What if a child choked and the recepionist wasn't listening at the exact second they choked, by the time they did the child would possibly be silenced by whatever had choked them so somebody listening at the end of a phone would not hear anything!I know they should not have left them and there is every posssiblity that they have something to do with it BUT lets just wait until there is undeniable evidence before we tar and feather them surely? If they are innocent put yourself in their place and think how you would feel, if they are guilty well evidence will come to light that proves it 100% and then and only then should we start to judge them for that crime, imagine how you would be feeling right now if you had made the silly decision to leave the kids alone and you lost a child and then think how you would cope with not only dealing with that loss but having to deal with being "hung,drawn and quartered" for being accused of having something to do with the dissapearance as well x
orkneylass
13-Sep-07, 09:44
yes thumper and how many children have been abducted from a hotel, holiday home or even their own house compared to the number of children that are, in reality, out of sight of their parents for half an hour? When is everybody going to get real? Every now and again something like this happens and it is mainly down to bad luck. Hindsight is a great thing and ofcourse the Mccanns would do things differently if they could turn the clock back. Why do we have a witchhunt and why does someone have to be punished, apart from whoever took Madeleine? We live in a terrible blame and finger pointing culture where it is Ok to be wise after the event and holier than thou if you are one of the lucky ones this did not happen to.
I quote again the Jamie Bulger case - feet away in a public place with her back turned. In someone is determined to baduct a child they will find a way. It is likely that because the McCann's party followed the same routine each night, and their apartment backed onto a raod, they were targeted. If not them, then someone else.
At the same time, everyone seems to have ignored reports this week about the terrible harm we are doing our kids by allowing them no freedom...lots of people not letting their children play outside, learn to go somewhere on their own etc. For every one Madeleine, as the result of an evil or sick person, there are hundreds of thousands of children growing up obese, insecure and unable to make decisions about their lives because they are so confined by a totally out of proportion fear of paedophiles.
Years ago I met a woman who boasted that her 4 year old have never been out of her sight, never left with a babysitter etc. She thought she was showing what a devoted mother she was. i was wondering how the poor kid was going to cope with starting school and just whose needs were being met by her devotion.
helenwyler
13-Sep-07, 10:04
This poll is premature IMO.
None of us have any reliable evidence to make judgements with.
All we have is a media pantomime of sometimes scurrilous speculation in order to whip up a public frenzy of moral indignation and its consequent 'beying for blood', which is reflected in this poll.
Nobody knows why the McCanns chose not to use the babysitting service, for example. Perhaps it was a crap service...an hourly listening in to the monitor by the hotel staff. Perhaps they decided it would be better to check on the children themselves? Who knows?
And if they had used it and been 'responsible'...would the baby-sitting service have been fool-proof against a determined stalker, who had maybe planned an abduction very carefully? A few minutes to switch off the monitor, chloroform Maddy...and out through the front door....Who knows?
Was Madeleine's disappearance the cruellest act of chance?
Were the McCanns complicit in her disappearance by neglect, or worse?
WE DON'T (DON@T) KNOW and are not in a position to know yet.
I'm coming at this as a mother who did have family trips abroad when my children were very young, and who arranged the day so that we were never apart from our children...
...but I will not be a jury member of a kangaroo court which makes its decisions based on a gutter press whose main impetus is to sell copy by deliberately whipping up public outrage and desire for 'revenge' based on speculation, manipulation and extravagant journalistic licence.
BTW I voted 'no' in this poll, because it is premature and unhelpful. Before we know the facts, how can we possibly vote 'yes':eek:?
Helen
I think we are all saying exactly the same thing as we said weeks ago when this subject was last aired. As i understand it the "babysitting service" was one which a "babysitter" popped in to check on the children every half hour or so - chances are that the outcome would have been the same had they used the service.
Leaving the children alone is not something i think i would have done but I dont think the children were "neglected". I beleive the McCanns assessed the risk and decided it was an acceptable one - they made a mistake. Had they been sat in their neighbours garden whilst their children slept which could have been as far away i doubt that we would be having this conversation. Had they gone out for a nights boozing and dancing and not checked on their children from 7 til 2 am and been 3 miles away then yes i would say that they were neglectful but i dont beleive that in this situation any parent whether they be doctor, lawyer, teacher or cleaner should be charged with neglect.
If we looka round society today their are loads of children being neglected and abused - to call madeleine a neglected child actually takes away from those children who are truly neglected and is absurd.
orkneylass
13-Sep-07, 10:36
Very well said
yeah squidge i agree with you, thats how i feel, just didnt know how to word it
If we looka round society today their are loads of children being neglected and abused - to call madeleine a neglected child actually takes away from those children who are truly neglected and is absurd.
I disagree, I think it shows that neglect is not just committed by the usual dross in society, and that this case highlights that neglect can have different forms.
miss swanson
13-Sep-07, 13:17
do u not think if she was kidnapped they wuld hav taken the other two kids aswell?no?
do u not think if she was kidnapped they wuld hav taken the other two kids aswell?no?
no, i mean whoever took her would have more chance of being found with 3 kids rather than one,
There are so many possiblities of what happened and who did or did not take her and also why they did, thats why they really need to concentrate on finding her whether she is alive or dead.I don't think that if she was kidnapped they would have taken all 3 as the whole thing about a successful snatch would be to be in and out as quickly and quietly as possible.If she has been taken there are lots of possiblities as to why as well, it may not be a peodophile it may be a childless couple or many other people who would want her for any number of reasons.Child smuggling still goes on in this world all the time, I know this as I have worked with the victims of just such a crime and it is heartbreaking to think that something this disgusting can still go on in this day and age!The fact is UNTIL they find her one way or the other it will be very hard to find out exactly what happened on that night x
yes thumper and how many children have been abducted from a hotel, holiday home or even their own house compared to the number of children that are, in reality, out of sight of their parents for half an hour? When is everybody going to get real? Every now and again something like this happens and it is mainly down to bad luck. Hindsight is a great thing and ofcourse the Mccanns would do things differently if they could turn the clock back. Why do we have a witchhunt and why does someone have to be punished, apart from whoever took Madeleine? We live in a terrible blame and finger pointing culture where it is Ok to be wise after the event and holier than thou if you are one of the lucky ones this did not happen to.
I quote again the Jamie Bulger case - feet away in a public place with her back turned. In someone is determined to baduct a child they will find a way. It is likely that because the McCann's party followed the same routine each night, and their apartment backed onto a raod, they were targeted. If not them, then someone else..
No one is 100% safe it is about assessing risk and making responsible decisions.
At the same time, everyone seems to have ignored reports this week about the terrible harm we are doing our kids by allowing them no freedom...lots of people not letting their children play outside, learn to go somewhere on their own etc. For every one Madeleine, as the result of an evil or sick person, there are hundreds of thousands of children growing up obese, insecure and unable to make decisions about their lives because they are so confined by a totally out of proportion fear of paedophiles.
Years ago I met a woman who boasted that her 4 year old have never been out of her sight, never left with a babysitter etc. She thought she was showing what a devoted mother she was. i was wondering how the poor kid was going to cope with starting school and just whose needs were being met by her devotion.
Children do need their freedom. Freedom to play to make mistakes and to fall down to hurt themselves. The question is how much freedom to you give infants?
I think we are all saying exactly the same thing as we said weeks ago when this subject was last aired. As i understand it the "babysitting service" was one which a "babysitter" popped in to check on the children every half hour or so - chances are that the outcome would have been the same had they used the service. .
If the service is inadequate for the care of infants then you don't use it and you either stay in or take them with you when you go out.
Leaving the children alone is not something i think i would have done but I dont think the children were "neglected". I beleive the McCanns assessed the risk and decided it was an acceptable one - they made a mistake. Had they been sat in their neighbours garden whilst their children slept which could have been as far away i doubt that we would be having this conversation. Had they gone out for a nights boozing and dancing and not checked on their children from 7 til 2 am and been 3 miles away then yes i would say that they were neglectful but i dont beleive that in this situation any parent whether they be doctor, lawyer, teacher or cleaner should be charged with neglect.
If we look around society today their are loads of children being neglected and abused - to call madeleine a neglected child actually takes away from those children who are truly neglected and is absurd.
She and her two siblings were left alone unattended. It may not be neglect in the strongest sense of the word but it is a form of negligence. No punishment will match the anguish the parents are now going through but that does not mean the authorities /social service should not step in am ensure they understand their role as parents.
Reading the posts in all the different threads it seems that everyone wants Madeleine home safe and those involved brought to justice. However, there seems to be two camps, those that think it is defensible to leave infants unattended and those that don't - Which camp are you in?
.
rockchick
13-Sep-07, 19:15
Someone else raised this point, but it seems important so I'll reiterate it...
What if there'd been a fire?
Would the McCann's have been able to rush from their restaurant meal and save their children if a fire had started in or around their rooms? Who would have raised the alarm...who would have been able to save their children? If that tragedy had behallen them, instead of the alleged abductor, the McCanns would have probably lost three children, not just the one.
Someone else raised this point, but it seems important so I'll reiterate it...
What if there'd been a fire?
Would the McCann's have been able to rush from their restaurant meal and save their children if a fire had started in or around their rooms? Who would have raised the alarm...who would have been able to save their children? If that tragedy had behallen them, instead of the alleged abductor, the McCanns would have probably lost three children, not just the one.
This just about takes the biscuit.
Do you really think it's necessary to fabricate propeganda against the McCanns. What exactly is the purpose?
SandTiger
13-Sep-07, 20:26
This just about takes the biscuit.
Do you really think it's necessary to fabricate propeganda against the McCanns. What exactly is the purpose?
Hi Gleeber, the original posting was not meant to fabricate propaganda but to discuss how people *may* have reacted if there had been a different set of circumstances. In disappearance cases there is always hope that the child will be returned or found safe. This tends to override everything else we may feel about the matter. Whereas, had the McCann's gone out to dinner and the infants had perished in, for example, a fire then I can help but think that public opinion would be very damming of their actions from the start - It is merely an observation.
The post is at #27
Reading the posts in all the different threads it seems that everyone wants Madeleine home safe and those involved brought to justice. However, there seems to be two camps, those that think it is defensible to leave infants unattended and those that don't - Which camp are you in?
Thats just plain wrong Tristan Do you not read the posts properly? Leaving children alone cannot be defended.
You may be right. There may be two camps. One calling for blood the other for compassion.
Hi Gleeber, the original posting was not meant to fabricate propaganda but to discuss how people *may* have reacted if there had been a different set of circumstances. In disappearance cases there is always hope that the child will be returned or found safe. This tends to override everything else we may feel about the matter. Whereas, had the McCann's gone out to dinner and the infants had perished in, for example, a fire then I can help but think that public opinion would be very damming of their actions from the start - It is merely an observation.
So is it not damning enough already?
SandTiger
13-Sep-07, 20:50
So is it not damning enough already?
Hi Gleeber, I neither see myself as baying for blood or inviting compassion. Although I am trying to look at the whole situation objectively. However I do find your stance admirable even if I don't entirely agree with it.
Forget the word 'punished' for a moment and tell me how you think it should be dealt with just based on their own admissions that they regularly left their children alone of a night whilst they dined out with friends?
i agree with gleeber what on earth is the point of using "what ifs"
honestly!
This just about takes the biscuit.
Do you really think it's necessary to fabricate propeganda against the McCanns. What exactly is the purpose?
It has nothing to do with propaganda. Believe it or not some people find it difficult to fathom how two educated parents could leave their infants open to any number of risks by leaving them alone at night.
The reality is those parents are going to have to live with the fact that she is gone and they are in part responsible. Not a "I only took my eyes of her for a second" type of responsible but the "I left infants alone with no one looking out for them" responsible.
Thats just plain wrong Tristan Do you not read the posts properly? Leaving children alone cannot be defended.
You may be right. There may be two camps. One calling for blood the other for compassion.
I do read the posts properly. Do you? I may have missed a post but I have not seen anyone calling for blood. Everyone on here has expressed concern for the poor lost girl and sympathy for the family. I have seen people who jump at anyone who says anything remotely negative about the choice the McCanns made to leave their infants alone in a flat where anything could have happened but I have seen no one calling for blood.
I guess the problem is even though people are sympathetic it is very difficult for most rational people (especially parents) to understand how they could have left their infant children like that - that is why the question keeps coming up.
SandTiger
13-Sep-07, 21:10
i agree with gleeber what on earth is the point of using "what ifs"
honestly!
Then you seemed to have missed the point once again.
Someone else raised this point, but it seems important so I'll reiterate it...
What if there'd been a fire?
IMO, there are an awful lot of "What ifs" about this case and adding "if there had been a fire" is not being very constructive to this thread
Then you seemed to have missed the point once again.
once again?!
im sorry but what on earth is the point in this, the question asked is if we think the mcanns should be punished, not what if there was a fire!
when it comes down to it not only what the McCanns but all the other parents in their group did was both wrong and illegal, Unfortunatley for the McCanns the worst possible thing that could of happened,happened something no parent would ever want to go through.
When not so long ago little Christianne Shepherd, who was seven and her brother Robert, who was six, were found dead in a hotel room due to a faulty boiler, they had two adults with them, so when you hear about this sort of thing happening it kind of makes it all the harder for some to understand why others would chose to leave their kids alone, right or wrong there will always be those who agree they were wrong to leave their kids and those who think that it was ok to leave them.
It will not bring Madeleine back arguing who is right and who is wrong, That poor child is god knows where maybe even dead so the parents will have to live with their actions for the rest of their lives, but they should admit it was wrong so that it might stop others making the same fateful mistake
once again?!
im sorry but what on earth is the point in this, the question asked is if we think the mcanns should be punished, not what if there was a fire!
The question is should they be punished for leaving the infants alone? No one would anticipate having their child kidnapped. However, most people would think of more obvious risks like fire, sleep walking, falling out of bed etc.
The only reason to (and I do hate the word punish they are suffering enough) to find them negligent would be if they put their infants in danger by leaving them alone? That is why the question of "fire" has been raised. It is not negligence towards the loss of Madeleine that was asked but negligence towards their children in general that was asked at the start of the thread.
I guess the problem is even though people are sympathetic it is very difficult for most rational people (especially parents) to understand how they could have left their infant children like that - that is why the question keeps coming up.
I understand that but my make up doesnt allow me to condemn them in any way. They were neglagent but they're human and are prone to monumental errors of judgement.
I just feel defensive but I'm aware of the deep felt feelings against the McCanns, especially since following this thread. I'm genuinely shocked.
I'll just agree to disagree if you dont mind?
Forget the word 'punished' for a moment and tell me how you think it should be dealt with just based on their own admissions that they regularly left their children alone of a night whilst they dined out with friends?
I dont really know how it should be dealt with. I know how it could be dealt with.
With compassion. ;)
SandTiger
13-Sep-07, 21:37
IMO, there are an awful lot of "What ifs" about this case and adding "if there had been a fire" is not being very constructive to this thread
It was a question pointing towards the possibilities of leaving infants alone within in the legal definition of neglect. i.e. putting minors in a risk of harm. I'm sorry that you see that as unconstructive.
SandTiger
13-Sep-07, 21:50
once again?!
im sorry but what on earth is the point in this, the question asked is if we think the mcanns should be punished, not what if there was a fire!
But what would your views be if parents had left there infant kids to go out dining with friends and a fire had broken out, or one got up and wandered into the oncoming traffic while looking for their parents, or got up and walked into the swimming pool...
Would you like me to go on?
However the point that I was making is that public perception has been shaped by the fact that there is a disappearance and we as the public seem to be much more forgiving if their is a human interest angle that we can all hold on to. But does this ultimately benefit Madeline or other children that may have been abducted where parents become complacent?
SandTiger
13-Sep-07, 21:54
I dont really know how it should be dealt with. I know how it could be dealt with.
With compassion. ;)
Then compassion needs to be seen as just that as do ones responsibilities to a duty of care ;)
Would you like me to go on?
Spare me.:)
SandTiger
13-Sep-07, 22:24
Spare me.:)
I was just warming up for the compassionate angle on all this :confused
What would we be punishing The McAnns for?
They have not been proven guilty under law for any wrong doing.
Whilst I quite agree with many of the posters that their actions were very ill advised and could be construed as negligence, I suspect that neither ! or any one else is in possession of the full facts.
The Gutter Press and some other news media are like a pack of hounds baying for blood and sensationalism sells.
Until such time as I am satisfied that the truth has been exposed,I do not intend to be either judge or jury.
SandTiger
13-Sep-07, 22:38
What would we be punishing The McAnns for?
They have not been proven guilty under law for any wrong doing.
Whilst I quite agree with many of the posters that their actions were very ill advised and could be construed as negligence, I suspect that neither ! or any one else is in possession of the full facts.
The Gutter Press and some other news media are like a pack of hounds baying for blood and sensationalism sells.
Until such time as I am satisfied that the truth has been exposed,I do not intend to be either judge or jury.
The discussion is in relation to their own admission that they left their infants alone whilst they went out quaffing wine and food. What part of that are you having difficulty with?
At the moment I cannot make a decision because I don't feel that we have seen the last of this yet. There is too much that is hidden at present but I feel that much will be revealed over the next weeks and it may not be nice. :confused
connieb19
13-Sep-07, 23:38
A question to the people who think the McCanns have suffered enough and should not be charged with neglect, what about the rest of the group who left their babies unattended, should they be charged or have they been through enough too?
One calling for blood the other for compassion.I certainly am not "calling for blood". The fact that one of their children went missing is a completely separate issue to the fact that, even without that, the children were left, by the McCanns own account, completely alone for a considerable period of time. Their own version of the time periods, the locations and the distances involved says that had any of the children even cried out for assistance, for whatever reason, it would have been highly unlikely that any of the group would have heard then, except by complete accident.
I am of the opinion that the other members of the group should have their lax attitude towards the safety of their young children checked in the same manner.
I would take the same attitude towards any parents who left very small children in that situation, including members of my own family. .
If my own sons came bleating to me that they were being investigated for going out and leaving two-year-old babies totally unsupervised whilst the went down the road for a meal they themselves would tell you that they would get absolutely no sympathy from me whatsoever. In fact, I would have every reason to think that they themselves would feel they were not deserving of any.
I have a great deal of compassion, but it is all reserved for the young children who were all put at risk by their parents very relaxed attitudes. The behaviour of all of them was not due to a moment of thoughtlessness or a minor lack of attention. It was a well considered and regular practice by people who are of above average intelligence and who should have known better.
I have no doubt at all that every one of them have, at one time or other, made some very unchristian comments when they have had to treat the children of parents who have behaved in a similar selfish manner.
Sandtiger, I was quite exact in what I said, and until the full and correct facts are exposed I STILL will not be judge and jury despite the fact that I have qualms about the way they behaved.
Aaldtimer
14-Sep-07, 02:42
Then gently scan your brother man,
Still gentler sister Woman,
Tho' they may gang a kennin' wrang,
To step aside is human:
One point must still be greatly dark,
The moving Why they do it;
And just as lamely can ye mark,
How far perhaps they rue it.
Who made the heart,'tis he alone
Decidedly can try us,
He knows each chord it's various tone,
Each spring it's various bias,
Then at the balance let's be mute,
We never can adjust it,
What's done we partly may compute,
But know not what's resisted.
Robert Burns
The address to the unco guid, or rigidly righteous
SandTiger
14-Sep-07, 09:26
Sandtiger, I was quite exact in what I said, and until the full and correct facts are exposed I STILL will not be judge and jury despite the fact that I have qualms about the way they behaved.
In relation to the broader issue it is probably quite right to reserve ones judgement given the media circus around this whole unhappy episode even though it appears to have often been fuelled by the McCann's, their family or their team.
I saw the question as being in relation to a much finer issue which the McCanns had freely admitted. "Punishment" is probably a far to emotive word, if we take the view that the purpose of the criminal justice system is to rehabilitate, but maybe some guidance and ongoing work at the very least would be helpful for them and even the other party members who did the same?
Is anyone aware of the McCann's going on record as saying they now feel it was wrong or unwise to have leave the infants alone?
Sandtiger, I was quite exact in what I said, and until the full and correct facts are exposed I STILL will not be judge and jury despite the fact that I have qualms about the way they behaved.
Lizz, thats my feelings exactly, the way some of the .Orgers have hung drawn and quartered the McCanns on here is disgusting, this is worse than any Kangeroo Court, thank goodness some .Orgers have some humanity.
Had it been a single parent who had left their kids alone and went out for the night and one of them had been snatched, There would be a very different view on here[disgust]
I dont see why it is only the McCanns who are being named as the ones leaving their kids when there were plenty others in their group who did the same. It seems that some are looking at the fact that they left their kids while others are looking at the bigger picture and this is where all the conflict is coming from.:~(
rockchick
14-Sep-07, 09:43
IMO, there are an awful lot of "What ifs" about this case and adding "if there had been a fire" is not being very constructive to this thread
Is pontificating and making judgment calls about what is and isn't appropriate in this thread constructive????
If you don't have anything to add to a post you'd be best off to just ignore it. It is possible that you simply haven't understood the point that was being made.
Lizz, thats my feelings exactly, the way some of the .Orgers have hung drawn and quartered the McCanns on here is disgusting, this is worse than any Kangeroo Court, thank goodness some .Orgers have some humanity.
Totally agree - none of us know the facts as yet............we don't even really know IF they left the kids alone in the room.
Totally agree - none of us know the facts as yet............we don't even really know IF they left the kids alone in the room.
They said in an interview on t.v that they left the kids and at the very least they were naive.
A question to the people who think the McCanns have suffered enough and should not be charged with neglect, what about the rest of the group who left their babies unattended, should they be charged or have they been through enough too?
That is a very good point.
Sandtiger, I was quite exact in what I said, and until the full and correct facts are exposed I STILL will not be judge and jury despite the fact that I have qualms about the way they behaved.
Maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded but even with all the "full and correct facts" I would never presume to be judge and jury. I may question the result, want more information, want other things investigated but to be become judge and jury? No way.
Lizz, thats my feelings exactly, the way some of the .Orgers have hung drawn and quartered the McCanns on here is disgusting, this is worse than any Kangeroo Court, thank goodness some .Orgers have some humanity.
That is a very sweeping statement. I admit I have not real every post so I was wondering do you have any examples of .orgers who have hanged, drawn and quartered the McCanns?
On anther note it appears that social services have visited the McCanns in relation to them now being named suspects.
They said in an interview on t.v that they left the kids and at the very least they were naive.
A lot of people say things, that are not necessarily the truth.........maybe (and I am only postulating here) saying they left them alone is the lesser of two evils.
A lot of people say things, that are not necessarily the truth.........maybe (and I am only postulating here) saying they left them alone is the lesser of two evils.
What do you mean saying they left them alone is the leser of two evils?
isnt the thread about them leaving them?:confused
I do not think that we should stand here in judgement and be voting in polls.
How would you feel if people were running polls about a member of your family and her disappearance. I think i would find this unbelievably upsetting.
I don't think it has anything to do with anyone other than the McCanns and their families and friends.
I think people should leave them alone now and the truth will eventually out.
Put yourself in their situation and try to imagine the pain they are feeling, i somehow think it would be very hard to imagine it, in my opinion they have suffered enough.
All parents make mistakes in bringing up their children and they have paid the ultimate price, so why cant we just leave them alone now!
What do you mean saying they left them alone is the leser of two evils?
isnt the thread about them leaving them?:confused
The simple fact is that YOU or anyone else on this board does not know what happened. You are debating a point about whether they should be punished for leaving their kids alone - you don't know if they were left alone, or if there was osmeone with them. The McCanns have said that they left them alone, should we take that as fact? Until all of the facts are available I will reserve judgement.
Why on earth would they say they had left their kids alone if they hadnt?
where would the sense be in that ?
Are you saying that we shouldnt believe a word they say then?:confused
All I am saying is keep an open mind and assume nothing.
I have an open mind as to what happened to madeleine, which is a seperate issue as to her parents admitting that they have left their children alone while they went out.
SandTiger
14-Sep-07, 17:25
A lot of people say things, that are not necessarily the truth.........maybe (and I am only postulating here) saying they left them alone is the lesser of two evils.
Wow! That is some theory!! Are you suggesting that they were left with the abductor?
rockchick
14-Sep-07, 17:40
Do we have any evidence at all that Madeleine was actually abducted??? Isn't it more likely that she woke up and went looking for her parents? Why would an abductor only take the one child, when three were available?
Wow! That is some theory!! Are you suggesting that they were left with the abductor?
I am not saying anything as I don't know!
SandTiger
14-Sep-07, 17:49
I am not saying anything as I don't know!
Gotcha, I thought you were developing a new angle to the debate based upon that post and...
The McCanns have said that they left them alone, should we take that as fact?
I don't think you have "got me" me on anything.
What an emotive subject,my very first posting would have been that they would have been 'zapped' by social services when they came home (if uk law allowed it)-but did I post that-no way-I would have been eaten alive on the org.
Chicken hearted-yes i'm me,not one of your battleaxe carrying orgers.
Over the zillions of words expressed so far-I am afraid their defence is still not good enough.An that is said with the deepest symgathy.
I certainly am not "calling for blood".
That is a very sweeping statement. I admit I have not real every post so I was wondering do you have any examples of .orgers who have hanged, drawn and quartered the McCanns?
Jaws and Tristan are right. I had a quick skim of the thread. No one was baying for blood and no one was going to hang draw and quarter the McCanns.
It seems to me a need to punish is at the core of the opinions being aired here. In some cases I could agree but in the case of the McCanns I would ask for compassion.
I dont expect they will get it in abundance but theres a good minority of orgers who would consider it.
It's an interesting poll. I dont normally pay much attention to org polls but this one has been fairly steady since it started.
I wonder how many people who voted for punishment may have been influenced by the underlying idea that the McCanns may be responsable for their daughters death.
NickInTheNorth
14-Sep-07, 21:55
I wonder how many people who voted for punishment may have been influenced by the underlying idea that the McCanns may be responsable for their daughters death.
Not this one. I believe that they should be punished simply for neglecting their children. I make no judgement as to their possible involvement in anything to do with the "disappearance" of their daughter.
Not this one. I believe that they should be punished simply for neglecting their children. I make no judgement as to their possible involvement in anything to do with the "disappearance" of their daughter.
Anyone who knows the basics of psychology will know that most decisions people make are based on everything they know, and quite a lot they dont know they know. Unless you didnt know anything about the history of the case then the chances are your vote has been affected by your knowledge of the childs disappearance.
Not here, as soon as it was said they had left the children alone I was disgusted by them and horrified at their selfishness.
NickInTheNorth
14-Sep-07, 22:08
Anyone who knows the basics of psychology will know that most decisions people make are based on everything they know, and quite a lot they dont know they know. Unless you didnt know anything about the history of the case then the chances are your vote has been affected by your knowledge of the childs disappearance.
I'm quite happy to leave anything to do with Madeline out of the equation. I would happily have them punished for neglecting the twins (who seem to be totally ignored in most peoples comments) :)
I am certainly aware of the disappearance of Madeline, however I was responding to your question regarding "may have been influenced by the underlying idea that the McCanns may be responsable for their daughters death".
I stick by what I said.
SandTiger
14-Sep-07, 22:11
Anyone who knows the basics of psychology will know that most decisions people make are based on everything they know, and quite a lot they dont know they know. Unless you didnt know anything about the history of the case then the chances are your vote has been affected by your knowledge of the childs disappearance.
oooOOOooo, I think The Psychology of Decision Making essay was only worth 3 credits :Razz
I stick by what I said.
To steal the words of another lady punished for her frailties.
Well. you would say that wouldnt you?
oooOOOooo, I think The Psychology of Decision Making essay was only worth 3 credits :Razz
Who rattled your cage? :roll:
SandTiger
14-Sep-07, 22:24
Who rattled your cage? :roll:
I'll hush my mouth then? C'mon Gleeber, I had you penned as being a bit brighter then you're coming across as. Give us a compelling argument as to why the McCann's should be granted compassion over others?
In some cases I could agree but in the case of the McCanns I would ask for compassion.
I'll hush my mouth then? C'mon Gleeber, I had you penned as being a bit brighter then you're coming across as. Give us a compelling argument as to why the McCann's should be granted compassion over others?
Lol I wouldnt know where to start. There's a difference between holding a gun and puling the trigger.
This is not the sort of thing anyone can claim a high moral ground stance. It's beginning to feel like that.
There's enough of a minority who would vote no to make my stance compelling enough for me to be comfortable with as you are with yours.
SandTiger
14-Sep-07, 23:04
Then I'll ask the question again;
Give us a compelling argument as to why the McCann's should be granted compassion over others?
Then I'll ask the question again;
Give us a compelling argument as to why the McCann's should be granted compassion over others?
Let's say that the McCanns had been sleeping in another room and Maddy had been abducted. It is pretty clear that we would have given them our sympathies in a big way. Instead, their situation came about as the result of a mistake, admittedly a selfish mistake but does that mean that we now take the attitude of "tough luck, you are bad parents"? Let's go a step further and have them dragged into the street, put into stocks and soundly flogged, so that they, and others, will get the message that the British Public have impeccable moral standards.
I tend to have the opinion that, because they are in well paid and highly skilled jobs, the McCanns are having to face more tut-tutting and finger waving than if they had been more of the average Jo/e Public.
Then I'll ask the question again;
Give us a compelling argument as to why the McCann's should be granted compassion over others?
Your asking me to give you a compelling argument on the basis that you yourself have a compelling argument. You don't. No more than me.
You feel the Mcanns need to be punished for their negligence. I dont. They are being punished enough.
Now can you give me a compelling argument why I should reconsider my position?
And please. I know how bad they have been.
Jaws and Tristan are right. I had a quick skim of the thread. No one was baying for blood and no one was going to hang draw and quarter the McCanns.
It seems to me a need to punish is at the core of the opinions being aired here. In some cases I could agree but in the case of the McCanns I would ask for compassion.
I dont expect they will get it in abundance but theres a good minority of orgers who would consider it.
It's an interesting poll. I dont normally pay much attention to org polls but this one has been fairly steady since it started.
I wonder how many people who voted for punishment may have been influenced by the underlying idea that the McCanns may be responsable for their daughters death.On the last point, no and if somebody wants to check back they will find that my opinion on the actions of the McCanns has not altered since the beginning of these threads. At no stage have I indicated a belief that the McCanns were somehow "to blame" for their daughters alleged abduction but only that they, and the friends acting the same way, should not have gone out and left such tiny children alone and unsupervised. The fact that Madeleine went missing is a completely separate issue.
The McCanns' children and those of their friends who were behaving in exactly the same manner should be put on the "At Risk" register. The children of less high profile people almost certainly would be and without a murmur of disapproval from anybody.
As for any of them being prosecuted for having gone out and left their children in that manner, quite frankly, I couldn't care less. What happens to them regarding that is of no interest to me in the least.
What I do find interesting are the implications being readily hurled about that those who think the McCanns behaved in an unsuitable manner should be portrayed as some sort of vengeful monsters. I find that quite amusing as I do with the implied assertion that those who feel "the need to punish" are somehow morally inferior and completely lacking in compassion.
Poll currently at 83 in favour of charging, 32 against.........
Are they any different from parents who allow their kids to travel in the car without seatbelts?
The only difference in the McCann's case - is that the "triggering event" actually ocurred.
Who would have predicted that?..................
NickInTheNorth
15-Sep-07, 09:01
Instead, their situation came about as the result of a mistake, admittedly a selfish mistake but does that mean that we now take the attitude of "tough luck, you are bad parents"?
And therein lies your error, it was no mistake it was a deliberate act. The parents neglected their children because they decided to absent themselves from the place in which their children were sleeping. That may have been an error of judgement on their part, but not an innocent mistake. As I said I am happy to leave Madeline out of the equation and only consider the care due to their surviving children, and still I come back to the conclusion that they neglected their children and should face the consequences.
I tend to have the opinion that, because they are in well paid and highly skilled jobs, the McCanns are having to face more tut-tutting and finger waving than if they had been more of the average Jo/e Public.
Because they are in well paid jobs etc that is all they are facing, had they been some less fortunate individuals they would very probably and properly have faced the full might of the law by now.
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 09:40
It seems to me like some people only see child negligence as a criminal offence if nothing untoward actually happens. That dosn't seem right. Why bother having laws if people get off because they are devastated and remorseful? :confused
It would be a start if the McCanns would admit what they've done is wrong, they've done the opposite and tried to justify it by saying people in Britain leave their kids all the time, it was like dining in your back garden ect, which is ridiculous and insulting to good, decent parents who would never consider doing what they did.
The might have had more sympathy if they had been campaigning on behalf of parenting responsibilities instead of paedophile laws and quivker response times when children go missing abroad.
It is obvious to me that the consequences of nipping off for a wee holiday bevvie and leaving the children is more serious than slapping, stubbing fags on a child's skin or food depravation.
SandTiger
15-Sep-07, 11:55
Your asking me to give you a compelling argument on the basis that you yourself have a compelling argument. You don't. No more than me.
You feel the Mcanns need to be punished for their negligence. I dont. They are being punished enough.
Now can you give me a compelling argument why I should reconsider my position?
And please. I know how bad they have been.
I'm inviting you to expand on what you said because I'm interested in your point of view.
And therein lies your error, it was no mistake it was a deliberate act. The parents neglected their children because they decided to absent themselves from the place in which their children were sleeping. That may have been an error of judgement on their part, but not an innocent mistake. As I said I am happy to leave Madeline out of the equation and only consider the care due to their surviving children, and still I come back to the conclusion that they neglected their children and should face the consequences.
Because they are in well paid jobs etc that is all they are facing, had they been some less fortunate individuals they would very probably and properly have faced the full might of the law by now.
There is NO error on my part. A deliberate act can be a mistake. Nobody can deny that. Almost everything we do in our lives is a deliberate act. You are proving nothing by trying to make that a seperate issue from the definition of mistake. By your logic, a mistake could only be something that happened outwith our control. That is clearly impossible to deduct from any definition of "mistake" I have ever encountered.
You have no evidence that a less well-paid couple would have been "banged to rights" by the law by now. That is merely the usual old chestnut that is trotted out about the well-off being above the law. From what I see being splashed on page one of the papers as "evidence" there is nothing that would stand up in any decent court of law.
Just as an aside, how do you suggest we punish the McCanns? It would be pretty difficult to punish them without, in some way, affecting their younger children. If Maddy is gone forever, what punishment would you dish out, in addition, to ensure that justice was seen to be done and to make sure the MCCanns don't think of doing such an evil thing again?
They have already been punished, unless you consider that they are happy in a scenario where their child is missing, probably dead.
Still, better swing that cat 'o' nine tails a few times just in case.
May the Forss be with you!!
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 13:56
For the people who say the appartment the McCanns left the kids in was in "line of sight". :roll:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=474428&in_page_id=1811&ito=newsnow
For the people who say the appartment the McCanns left the kids in was in "line of sight". :roll:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=474428&in_page_id=1811&ito=newsnow
Seems like oldish news. In any case, how does this relate to whether punishment is due? What do you propose as punishment anyway? I keep asking but get no reply. How about I start the ball rolling? I suggest Trafalgar Square as the venue, robust stocks, Lord Nelson's Cat and 60 lashes each. Sky Sports will be given the coverage rights and a Cat Cam will be in use throughout to enhance that suffering experience. Dale Winton and Simon Cowell are tentatively pencilled in as the Cat Swinger, although a sharing of duties has not been ruled out. Members of the public may be given the chance to win a "Lash" in a lottery or via a "Lash" silent auction (the auction is silent not the lash, rest assured that the lash will come to you via Dolby Surround Sound) all proceeds raised go to a Portugese Police Fund.
Actually connie, and I agree with her, has said that "I dont think the Macanns can be punished much more than they are just now" (http://forum.caithness.org/showpost.php?p=270977&postcount=10).
I believe her link refers to how responsible or not their were being leaving the infants alone and unattended like they did.
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 16:25
Seems like oldish news. In any case, how does this relate to whether punishment is due? What do you propose as punishment anyway? I keep asking but get no reply. How about I start the ball rolling? I suggest Trafalgar Square as the venue, robust stocks, Lord Nelson's Cat and 60 lashes each. Sky Sports will be given the coverage rights and a Cat Cam will be in use throughout to enhance that suffering experience. Dale Winton and Simon Cowell are tentatively pencilled in as the Cat Swinger, although a sharing of duties has not been ruled out. Members of the public may be given the chance to win a "Lash" in a lottery or via a "Lash" silent auction (the auction is silent not the lash, rest assured that the lash will come to you via Dolby Surround Sound) all proceeds raised go to a Portugese Police Fund.Does it matter if it's old news, obviously some people have no idea of the distance or they wouldn't keep on going on about the appartment being "in line of sight", I posted the link for the benefit of those people. :roll:
As for punishment, if you've read my posts you will see that I actually agree that they cannot be punished any more than what they are going through already but it is due to their negligence that Madeleine is missing, how can anyone say it wasn't irresponsible or negligent when whatever happened is because of their actions? It shouldn't even be an issue as to whether they were responsible or not, what they did was illegal and being niave is no valid excuse, especially when there was childcare available which they choose to refuse, as did their pals who should all be charged too.
Actually connie, and I agree with her, has said that "I dont think the Macanns can be punished much more than they are just now" (http://forum.caithness.org/showpost.php?p=270977&postcount=10).
I believe her link refers to how responsible or not their were being leaving the infants alone and unattended like they did.
The title of the thread is "should the McCanns be punished"
If the opinion is that the McCanns cannot be punished further than they are just now, then what is the point of bringing up the same old stuff to somehow justify their guilt?
If you have read my previous posts, you will already know that I consider the McCanns guilty of neglect. Until we know the fate of Maddy, I think it is inappropriate to be thinking of punishment at all.
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 16:44
The title of the thread is "should the McCanns be punished"
If the opinion is that the McCanns cannot be punished further than they are just now, then what is the point of bringing up the same old stuff to somehow justify their guilt?
If you have read my previous posts, you will already know that I consider the McCanns guilty of neglect. Until we know the fate of Maddy, I think it is inappropriate to be thinking of punishment at all.I also think them being seen as emblems of parental love, the standing ovation from police, blessing by the pope and all the other celebrity status stuff totally inappropriate too.
Does it matter if it's old news, obviously some people have no idea of the distance or they wouldn't keep on going on about the appartment being "in line of sight", I posted the link for the benefit of those people. :roll:
As for punishment, if you've read my posts you will see that I actually agree that they cannot be punished any more than what they are going through already but it is due to their negligence that Madeleine is missing, how can anyone say it wasn't irresponsible or negligent when whatever happened is because of their actions? It shouldn't even be an issue as to whether they were responsible or not, what they did was illegal and being niave is no valid excuse, especially when there was childcare available which they choose to refuse, as did their pals who should all be charged too.
OK the McCanns cannot be punished further. So WHAT is your point then? This thread was about whether or not the McCanns should be punished. I accept that the McCanns were negligent, it is stated in my previous posts. What I don't understand is this, seemingly desperate, need to label the MCCanns as guilty. Would it make you feel better if they were forced to walk around with t-shirts with the words "Bad Parents" on, for the rest of their lives? Have you no sympathy for their situation because they were careless? It is almost certain that Maddy will not be found alive. I see no need to try to point down from a higher plane and call for punishment.
I also think them being seen as emblems of parental love, the standing ovation from police, blessing by the pope and all the other celebrity status stuff totally inappropriate too.
It might well be over the top but I don't think a firing squad is appropriate either.
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 16:50
It might well be over the top but I don't think a firing squad is appropriate either.
Are you trying to say I do?
The title of the thread is "should the McCanns be punished"
If the opinion is that the McCanns cannot be punished further than they are just now, then what is the point of bringing up the same old stuff to somehow justify their guilt?
If you have read my previous posts, you will already know that I consider the McCanns guilty of neglect. Until we know the fate of Maddy, I think it is inappropriate to be thinking of punishment at all.
I suppose someone could open up a thread on were the group neglectful towards their duty of care? but as someone else has pointed out on a different McCann thread there are too many different threads on the subject already.
The title of this thread perhaps wasn't as open as it could be but the the subject matter that Rheghead proposed was "They left their child alone in a foreign country without supervision. They have paid the ultimate price for their negligence, but should they be charged with neglecting their children?" So punished or not as the title suggests or simply charged (with social services support etc) as the text suggests, without starting a new thread this seems to be the best place to discuss the McCanns and their fellow vacationer's neglect.
changilass
15-Sep-07, 16:55
If you have read my previous posts, you will already know that I consider the McCanns guilty of neglect. Until we know the fate of Maddy, I think it is inappropriate to be thinking of punishment at all.
I think its would be very appropriate for social services to be investigating the McCanns NOW rather than awaiting an outcome to what happened to Madeline, after all there are still 2 kids out there whose parents think its ok to leave them unattended. Even if all they have to endure is some parenting classes they need to be made aware of the responsibility of parenting and show that they can care for their kids appropriately.
NickInTheNorth
15-Sep-07, 17:26
Perhaps the question that should have been asked is should the McCanns have criminal proceedings taken against them in regard to the neglect of their children.
The question which we have been answering is to my mind synonymous with that, as clearly if they are to be "punished" it would be for a court to order the punishment or other disposition as seems appropriate.
I don't know why some people seem to believe that all those in favour of punishment wish to hang 'em or flog 'em. Maybe it suits the posturing of those against punishment to pretend they are too stupid to understand that no country in Europe uses the birch or cat for public beating in this enlightened age.
As to the oft repeated argument that they have suffered enough due to their criminal culpability, when do we start to forgive drunk drivers that do nothing but crash and injure themselves without harming anyone else, or any other criminal that harms no one but themselves as a result of their illegal act?
OK the McCanns cannot be punished further. So WHAT is your point then?
Drink drivers can mow a child down and then live a nightmare life of regret for the rest of their lives, by your reckoning these folk shouldn't be punished either, they've also suffered enough no?:confused
Maybe it suits the posturing of those against punishment to pretend they are too stupid to understand that no country in Europe uses the birch or cat for public beating in this enlightened age.
As to the oft repeated argument that they have suffered enough due to their criminal culpability, when do we start to forgive drunk drivers that do nothing but crash and injure themselves without harming anyone else, or any other criminal that harms no one but themselves as a result of their illegal act?
Come on Nick, allow us a little irony now, not everything is to be read literally. In any case the use of the cat in punishment would have the RSPCA on our backs in no time ;o)
I totally miss your point on the second part. Why do we have to forgive drunk drivers that only injure themselves? Surely the whole point is when other people are affected by crime? Had the McCanns been responsible, indirectly, for the death of your child or mine, then that would be a different scenario than losing their own child.
Drink drivers can mow a child down and then live a nightmare life of regret for the rest of their lives, by your reckoning these folk shouldn't be punished either, they've also suffered enough no?:confused
There is no proof that they do suffer though. I have know of cases where the drunk drivers showed no remorse. In any case, that is an entirely different scenario to losing your OWN child due to your mistake. Kinda disappointing logic there Rheghead, ye canna compare peegs and coos til see fit mutton tastes lek.
There is no proof that they do suffer though. I have know of cases where the drunk drivers showed no remorse. In any case, that is an entirely different scenario to losing your OWN child due to your mistake. Kinda disappointing logic there Rheghead, ye canna compare peegs and coos til see fit mutton tastes lek.
You have obviously not been reading what drink drivers have said afterwards. You are judging the magnitude of the regret suffered by another to justify your arguement, I think that is impossible. You must invent a remorsometer perhaps? I fail to see your logic. There have been incidents of infanticide where no remorse has been felt by the mother, so what?:confused Should the murderous mothers who do feel genuine remorse then get away with murder?
NickInTheNorth
15-Sep-07, 17:59
Come on Nick, allow us a little irony now, not everything is to be read literally. In any case the use of the cat in punishment would have the RSPCA on our backs in no time ;o)
I totally miss your point on the second part. Why do we have to forgive drunk drivers that only injure themselves? Surely the whole point is when other people are affected by crime? Had the McCanns been responsible, indirectly, for the death of your child or mine, then that would be a different scenario than losing their own child.
The crime for which the McCanns should be punished is the neglect of their children. Nothing to do with any possible harm that may or may not have occurred to one of them. Many people, yourself included, are suggesting that as they have suffered emotionally (because of the disappearance of their eldest child) due to their own negligence they should avoid further punishment. Therefore because their own criminal neglect has caused them emotional harm they should not be punished their criminal actions...
The twins have not been harmed, despite the fact the parents neglected them. The crime has happened, no one has suffered for it, but you say they should not face any punishment. Sounds similar to the drunk driver that causes no other harm.
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 18:05
There is no proof that they do suffer though. I have know of cases where the drunk drivers showed no remorse. In any case, that is an entirely different scenario to losing your OWN child due to your mistake. Kinda disappointing logic there Rheghead, ye canna compare peegs and coos til see fit mutton tastes lek.
If someone was to drink 10 pints of lager before then driving off in a car with their 3 kids in it, then crashing, killing 1 child, would they then have suffered enough to avoid charges, I dont think so. :confused woud people feel sorry for the driver because they made a mistake or error of judgement, I dont think so.
changilass
15-Sep-07, 18:08
Me thinks you are being deliberately obtuse Scorrie, its plain to see the point being made in the above posts
Me thinks you are being deliberately obtuse Scorrie, its plain to see the point being made in the above posts
I don't think he is being obtuse whatsoever - In fact I consider him to be being very pragmatic.
If someone was to drink 10 pints of lager before then driving off in a car with their 3 kids in it, then crashing, killing 1 child, would they then have suffered enough to avoid charges, I dont think so. :confused woud people feel sorry for the driver because they made a mistake or error of judgement, I dont think so.
.........and if yer Auntie was male, she'd be yer Uncle!
If the McCanns did face a criminal negligence case then their remorse should be taken into consideration as a mitigating circumstance. I would whole heartedly agree with leniency in any sentence, but I don't think it would be appropriate for them to be exempt from prosecution purely on compassionate grounds.
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 18:24
.........and if yer Auntie was male, she'd be yer Uncle!
Your point being?
Your point being?
If your Auntie was male she would be your Uncle;)
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 18:37
If your Auntie was male she would be your Uncle;)To be honest, there should not need to be any if's or but's about this case, what the McCanns did was illegal, it should not even be questionable whether they should be charged. As for them being guilty of anything more than neglect, nobody knows except for themselves whether they are or they are not but the reason people are, making assumptions about them is because no-one was there to protect Madeleine.
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 18:48
A question to the people who think the McCanns have suffered enough and should not be charged with neglect, what about the rest of the group who left their babies unattended, should they be charged or have they been through enough too?I'm going to ask this question again as no-one seems to have answered it first time around. :roll:
What does the World look like from up there?
connieb19
15-Sep-07, 19:40
What does the World look like from up there?You tell me!
Haven't we all learned something from the Maddie MaCann story. I know there are things that looking back i could have done differently in my life.Luckily most of us get the chance to learn from our stupidity and move on. Thats life. Yes if they never left there children, then we wouldn't be here today having this disscussion and yes social services should be looking into them but if they are charged with neglect, what should there punishment be? and who would it have the greatest effect on, us, Kate and Gerry or the twins?
changilass
15-Sep-07, 20:48
I would hope it would have the biggest effect on the twins in order to help keep them safe in the future, otherwise its not worth it
Haven't we all learned something from the Maddie MaCann story. I know there are things that looking back i could have done differently in my life.Luckily most of us get the chance to learn from our stupidity and move on. Thats life. Yes if they never left there children, then we wouldn't be here today having this disscussion and yes social services should be looking into them but if they are charged with neglect, what should there punishment be? and who would it have the greatest effect on, us, Kate and Gerry or the twins?
Let us be purely brutally honest about this. Nobody goes through life without breaking the law, and it does seem in some circumstances that the only thing we are guilty of is getting caught if it happens to be that we are charged and found guilty. That said, the law is there to largely prevent crime and it should be done by persuing cases like this. There should now be a presidence now to investigate the McCanns for negligence because anybody that now leaves a child unattended to go off for a night out won't be able to look to the McCann case as a reason not to be done for it. IOW some scumbag of a mother can't say "A dinnae di owt wrong, e McCanns gorra way wi it an ey lost e bairn!"
I never said they shouldn't be investegated, but merely asked what if charged, should the punishment be. We all know they are guilty of leaving their children and anyone who does it should be investegated.
Let us be purely brutally honest about this. Nobody goes through life without breaking the law, and it does seem in some circumstances that the only thing we are guilty of is getting caught if it happens to be that we are charged and found guilty. That said, the law is there to largely prevent crime and it should be done by persuing cases like this. There should now be a presidence now to investigate the McCanns for negligence because anybody that now leaves a child unattended to go off for a night out won't be able to look to the McCann case as a reason not to be done for it. IOW some scumbag of a mother can't say "A dinnae di owt wrong, e McCanns gorra way wi it an ey lost e bairn!"
You know something rheghead you may just be right.
The McCanns need to be tried by a group of their peers.
Youve been on a jury.
God forbid I ever fall foul of the law and your on the jury. Your prejudice is transparent. Scumbags and dross are 2 terms I have heard from you recently. Now we have the McCanns for you to stick pins in.
You couldnt give a balanced view about a burnt steak.
If what the McCanns done was illegal then they should be charged. The fact that they are not being charged says a lot about the circumstances of this case being so completely unique.
I'm not influenced in any way by the tones being used to humiliate the McCanns. Maybe that's the reason I can defend them against such strong opinions. That doesnt mean your strong opinions are not as valid as mine, but it does say that I disgree strongly with you and everyone else who would call for punishment.
I also note the no vote % has moved to a new high. I am part of a large minority and I'm delighted.
There's no meeting place for those of you who are calling for punishment and those of us who are so unsure about this whole sad affair.
We will just have to agree to differ.
There's no meeting place for those of you who are calling for punishment and those of us who are so unsure about this whole sad affair.
We will just have to agree to differ.
TBH, I don't think you and I are all that different.;)
If what the McCanns done was illegal then they should be charged. The fact that they are not being charged says a lot about the circumstances of this case being so completely unique.
Exactly which part of what happened is unique?
The unique part is the part that has convinced 30% of people who voted that the McCanns need no more grief from sanctimonious and prejudiced geezers like yourself.
I trust that answers your question.
No it doesn't. You simply avoided answering the question, but do carry on with the insults.
Perhaps, if you try hard enough, you might even come up with one which could be slightly valid. I won't be holding my breath waiting though.
I answered your question truthfully. The fact that you dont like the answer is your problem, not mine. If talking truthfully means you feel insulted, then I trust the feeling was an uncomfortable one.
This whole thread has insulted me. Right from the moment I read the first post. The McCanns dont have a defence against your accusations yet you harp on and on and on about how right you are. I'm not saying your wrong but I am challenging your view because my prejudices have allowed mo to come up with an opposing opinion.
is this neglect?
2nights a go a woman went into somerfield and did her shopping leaving her two small kids in the car, for a bout 15-20 mins
is that child neglect?
in those 15mins anything could have happened
Me thinks you are being deliberately obtuse Scorrie, its plain to see the point being made in the above posts
It is not me who is trying to "bend" scenarios to fit the McCann case.
Connie gives the example of a driver getting tanked up and killing one of his kids as a result. If you consider that action, it has an ultra high risk of ending in tragedy and is the sole result of the driver's actions. If you compare that to leaving your kids alone for a short time and the tragedy being because of third party intervention that was highly unlikely compared to the previous scenario, you will see that you cannot compare the two situations. Others are trying to push square pegs through the round hole.
Perhaps the drunk driver would have suffered enough, in any case, I feel any punishment that we could administer would not have any effect if the loss of his own child were not enough to teach him his "lesson"
You have obviously not been reading what drink drivers have said afterwards. You are judging the magnitude of the regret suffered by another to justify your arguement, I think that is impossible. You must invent a remorsometer perhaps? I fail to see your logic. There have been incidents of infanticide where no remorse has been felt by the mother, so what?:confused Should the murderous mothers who do feel genuine remorse then get away with murder?
Have you read what EVERY drink driver has said Rheghead. If so, how do you know they were sincere?
The McCanns have NOT been charged with murder, far less been found guilty of it!! You cannot compare the scenarios.
This is pretty poor debating, I expected better.
This is pretty poor debating
Then you shouldn't insist in doing it then...:roll: All I've said all along is that the McCanns have to be suspects in the investigation, I've never said that they are guilty of murder.
changilass
16-Sep-07, 14:15
Perhaps the drunk driver would have suffered enough, in any case, I feel any punishment that we could administer would not have any effect if the loss of his own child were not enough to teach him his "lesson"
Tip for criminals - always ensure you harm one of your own when commiting a crime that way there should be no punishment[disgust]
By the way I haven't said they should be punished as in horse whipped, what I have said is they should be investigated by social services and the appropriate measures put in place, ie child care lessons and possible kids being put on the at risk register until they can prove they can care for them adequately
connieb19
16-Sep-07, 14:58
Perhaps the drunk driver would have suffered enough, in any case, I feel any punishment that we could administer would not have any effect if the loss of his own child were not enough to teach him his "lesson"
Should any of the rest of the group who were with the McCanns be charged for leaving their children seeing as they never lost their own, or have they been through enough too?
No one is 100% safe it is about assessing risk and making responsible decisions.
Reading the posts in all the different threads it seems that everyone wants Madeleine home safe and those involved brought to justice. However, there seems to be two camps, those that think it is defensible to leave infants unattended and those that don't - Which camp are you in?
I wouldnt leave infants unattended whilst i went out for dinner.... however i might leave a wee one sleeping in bed whilst i pegged out my washing, put the bin out and brought my shopping in from the car. I might also leave them sleeping in the pram by the door whilst i was in the kitchen or vacuuming. i might also leave my baby sleeping in the bedroom whilst i sat outside in the garden having a glass of wine or eating dinner al fresco - either here or abroad.
Now any one of those situations could allow someone hell bent on stealing my child to access my house through the other door and take them if they were determined enough, callous enough and with enough planning. I would assess the risk and make a decision that it was an acceptable risk. I dont beleive than in having my dinner out in the garden whilst the baby sleeps in the house i am being neglectful. I think that is what the McCanns did they assessed the risk and made a decision and they made the wrong one - lulled by the warm weather , the promotion of the site as family friendly, the opinion that the child sitting service was not as good as popping back to check on the children themselves... whatever the decision it has been shown to be wrong but thats with hindsight - an exact science if you ask me. I still dont beleive it to be neglect, I can agree that they were foolish but if we are to charge every foolish parent with neglect then the prisons would be full.
We are judging the McCanns on the outcome of their action - not on the action itself and the only place for the blame to fall is with the abductor
connieb19
16-Sep-07, 15:10
I wouldnt leave infants unattended whilst i went out for dinner.... however i might leave a wee one sleeping in bed whilst i pegged out my washing, put the bin out and brought my shopping in from the car. I might also leave them sleeping in the pram by the door whilst i was in the kitchen or vacuuming. i might also leave my baby sleeping in the bedroom whilst i sat outside in the garden having a glass of wine or eating dinner al fresco - either here or abroad.
Now any one of those situations could allow someone hell bent on stealing my child to access my house through the other door and take them if they were determined enough, callous enough and with enough planning. I would assess the risk and make a decision that it was an acceptable risk. I dont beleive than in having my dinner out in the garden whilst the baby sleeps in the house i am being neglectful. I think that is what the McCanns did they assessed the risk and made a decision and they made the wrong one - lulled by the warm weather , the promotion of the site as family friendly, the opinion that the child sitting service was not as good as popping back to check on the children themselves... whatever the decision it has been shown to be wrong but thats with hindsight - an exact science if you ask me. I still dont beleive it to be neglect, I can agree that they were foolish but if we are to charge every foolish parent with neglect then the prisons would be full.
We are judging the McCanns on the outcome of their action - not on the action itself and the only place for the blame to fall is with the abductorYou dont have dinner in the garden while supping wine, with hundreds of strangers wandering about in your garden and your children asleep in a downstairs bedroom with patio doors that open onto a main road do you? :eek:
connieb19
16-Sep-07, 15:13
We are judging the McCanns on the outcome of their action - not on the action itself and the only place for the blame to fall is with the abductor
Reading through the posts I would say it's he opposite, we are judging on the action. How can anyone judge on the outcome when nobody knows whether there even was an abduction? :confused
They should have been punished a long time ago, it looks like that time has passed.
If Miss single parent, or Mr & Mrs Family tax credit did the same thing then there would be a public outcry, but No they are respectable doctors so we will let them off.
It is neglect of a child pure and simple, they should be punished
You dont have dinner in the garden while supping wine, with hundreds of strangers wandering about in your garden and your children asleep in a downstairs bedroom with patio doors that open onto a main road do you?
I lived in a busy wee town before moving to the highlands Connie - I havent always lived in relatively safe highlands. We had a communal back yard and many times i had a few glasses of wine and a barbecue with about 20 of my neighbours in the yard at the back of our house whilst the front door of my house faced onto a main road. I never ever thought that someone would try to harm or steal my children and no one ever did but to be honest - it never ever even crossed my mind that my children were not safe in their beds whilst i could see my back door and checked on them every half hour or so. I wasnt far away - probably as for from wetherspoons front door to the door of the Crown i reckon. And before anyone asks lol i never get drunk - 2 glasses of wine is my limit lol - IM such a lightweight!!!!!:roll:
Reading through the posts I would say it's he opposite, we are judging on the action. How can anyone judge on the outcome when nobody knows whether there even was an abduction? :confused 16-Sep-07 15:10
The outcome is that the child is missing, abducted murdered or simply wandered off - the outcome is the same there is a missing child.
connieb19
16-Sep-07, 15:28
I wasnt far away - probably as for from wetherspoons front door to the door of the Crown i reckon. So you were within a distance where you would have heard them had they wakened up crying or got up to look for you?
Connie lol - you caught me out... I had the baby monitors! The point is though not that i am better or worse than anyone but that i made an assessment of risk and fortunately it worked out.....
Lets imagine a conversation - "Yeah we had a great holiday - the baby sitting service wasnt what we had expected - they just sent some kid in to check on the children every half hour so we decided we would just do it ourselves. Was great though - there was a cracking restaraunt just across the road and we could see the appartment whilst we had dinner. We put them to bed and then took it in turns to pop back and check on the children. It was great"
Lets assume THAT had been the conversation we had heard when we spoke to our friends who had just had a holiday we would have nodded smiled and probably not thought anything of it at all. We likely wouldnt have said - werent you afraid someone would break in and steal your child? We might have said - werent you worried they would wake and wonder where you were? To which we might have had the reply "Nah they never wake once they have gone to bed" or "we were close enough to hear them and we would have seen if they had come to the window"
How many of us would step back quickly Gasp in appalled surprise point our fingers and shout "Call social services you are guilty of child neglect" WE wouldnt and yet we are happy to do so to the mccanns based on what exactly? The fact that their child is missing and the outcome isnt looking good ...oh and what appalling rubbish passes as news in the Daily express..... sigh
connieb19
16-Sep-07, 15:54
That's the point though, they were not close enough to hear them or see if they came to the window. What if they had wakened up 5 mins after a check, would it be acceptable for them to cry for another 25 mins again until the next check?
That's the point though, they were not close enough to hear them or see if they came to the window. What if they had wakened up 5 mins after a check, would it be acceptable for them to cry for another 25 mins again until the next check?
Did they know that for sure? Do we? Maybe they could - on a quiet night in summer i can hear my neighbours in their gardens and they are much further away... And if we had had the fictitious conversation with our friends would we have asked them to state how far they were in meters? I rather think that we would have accepted that across the road was near enough for safety without questioning it. We wouldnt have been screaming for them to be charged with child neglect. Thats because we would have accepted that they made an assessment of the risk and decided it was ok. We would have accepted that. What makes the mccanns different -their child went missing.... not through their neglect but potentially through the actions of a third party.
connieb19
16-Sep-07, 16:23
Did they know that for sure? Do we? Maybe they could - on a quiet night in summer i can hear my neighbours in their gardens and they are much further away... And if we had had the fictitious conversation with our friends would we have asked them to state how far they were in meters? I rather think that we would have accepted that across the road was near enough for safety without questioning it. We wouldnt have been screaming for them to be charged with child neglect. Thats because we would have accepted that they made an assessment of the risk and decided it was ok. We would have accepted that. What makes the mccanns different -their child went missing.... not through their neglect but potentially through the actions of a third party.So why are there laws against leaving children on there own if no-one has to follow these laws?
Tip for criminals - always ensure you harm one of your own when commiting a crime that way there should be no punishment[disgust]
By the way I haven't said they should be punished as in horse whipped, what I have said is they should be investigated by social services and the appropriate measures put in place, ie child care lessons and possible kids being put on the at risk register until they can prove they can care for them adequately
Why do you insist on trotting out the same sarcastic nonsense as justification for your argument? (little disgust icon thingy here)
Do you seriously believe that the McCanns other two children are currently in danger? Do you believe that the McCanns are not intelligent enough to have learned from their tragic mistake? There are almost certainly cases where care lessons would be appropriate but I really cannot see that Doctors would gain anything from it. Their mistake was not made through ignorance, it was made by being selfish. They have paid a heavy price for that selfishness and to think that they have not learned a harsh lesson already is Fantasy Island thinking.
This is my last post on this, as it is like beating your head against the wall of an Ivory Tower atop a very high hill of morality.
changilass
16-Sep-07, 17:28
Being a doctor doesnt automatically mean you are a good parent or that you will learn from your mistakes anymore than any other parent. Do you honestly believe that only uneducated people neglect their kids. Having read a number of reports I can tell you this is not the case.
I dont know if the other 2 children are in danger, which is why the parents should be investigated.
If anything was to happen to the other 2 children everyone would be up in arms if social workers dont investigate this case.
Are you willing to take the chance that something could happen to these 2 kids just so we dont upset the parents any further. The care and wellbeing of the remaining kids is what is important.
One thing confuses me here and that is all the people who say the McCanns were within sight and earshot of their holiday apartment, how come they never saw or heard anything when Madeleine was supposed to of been abducted?:confused
No doubt i will come under fire from some for daring to ask.
when on holiday even in the resorts restaurants it is very noisy, music, other diners, children. I don't believe for a minute that anyone could hear anything happening in the appartment.
Here here scorrie. i'm with you on this. I was'nt going to say any more on this and then i read your post. The McCanns are in living hell at this time after the tragic mistake they made and are well aware of it. They have most certainly paid the price. It's time to get back to trying to find that beautiful wee lassie and i don't see much progress with the portugese police there, they seem to be more interested in nailing the parents for this.
Here here scorrie. i'm with you on this. I was'nt going to say any more on this and then i read your post. The McCanns are in living hell at this time after the tragic mistake they made and are well aware of it. They have most certainly paid the price. It's time to get back to trying to find that beautiful wee lassie and i don't see much progress with the portugese police there, they seem to be more interested in nailing the parents for this.
I may be wrong but my understanding is that if this happened in the UK the parents are automatically looked at as suspects.
I think it is important to keep an open mind on all sides. Much like we can't decide if the McCanns were directly involved we also are in no position to decide if and how the police are doing their job. I will keep an open mind on both situations.
I agree with you there tristan, if this had happened in britain they would have been treated as suspects and all this fiasco the family have been put through would have been avoided. Also our police are more open in keeping the public informed. This is something the portugues might take on board, it might have stopped all the inuendo and lets face it there has been plenty of it.
porshiepoo
17-Sep-07, 15:20
I haven't had a chance to go through all the posts so this may have been covered already but:
I remember reading that the McCanns left the patio doors open of the bedroom that the kids were sleeping in. If they had claimed that this was in case of an emergency or a fire then I could have understood that particular part of it but their reasoning at the time was that they didn't want to risk waking the kids up when they put the key in the lock. :eek: Is it me or is that just really suss?
They obviously didn't think so far as to wonder what would have happened if Maddie had woken, gone to look for Mummy and Daddy, got frightened cos they weren't there and walked out that unlocked door to look for someone. Unless of course they had that covered by giving her sleeping tablets maybe? And maybe she reacted badly to them while they weren't there? Then maybe they found her body and panicked???
Will we ever know???????????????
Unless of course they had that covered by giving her sleeping tablets maybe? And maybe she reacted badly to them while they weren't there? Then maybe they found her body and panicked???
Will we ever know???????????????
I am certain that the portuguese police have looked into the possibility that Madeleine reacted badly to drugs that were given to sedate her while they went for a meal out and they disposed of her body in order to save their lucrative careers. The most likely situation is that Madeleine was actually taken by an abductor, I only feel that way because I trust doctors to be above suspicion, and that the alternative theories really sicken me to the core. I am in denial about it all so I am believing in what seems to be the lesser of the many alternative evils
Shabbychic
17-Sep-07, 16:04
I am certain that the portuguese police have looked into the possibility that Madeleine reacted badly to drugs that were given to sedate her while they went for a meal out and they disposed of her body in order to save their lucrative careers. The most likely situation is that Madeleine was actually taken by an abductor, I only feel that way because I trust doctors to be above suspicion, and that the alternative theories really sicken me to the core. I am in denial about it all so I am believing in what seems the nicest theory.
That is exactly how I feel. The alternative is unthinkable.
right i know it was wrong for them to leave there kids unattended as a mother myself i would never do that but what on earth gave anybody the right to take their child!!!!!!!
until we know whats happened i believe she was abducted, nobody as the right to do that!
we live in a sick world:confused
thefugitive1993
18-Sep-07, 15:18
I am certain that the portuguese police have looked into the possibility that Madeleine reacted badly to drugs that were given to sedate her while they went for a meal out and they disposed of her body in order to save their lucrative careers. The most likely situation is that Madeleine was actually taken by an abductor, I only feel that way because I trust doctors to be above suspicion, and that the alternative theories really sicken me to the core. I am in denial about it all so I am believing in what seems to be the lesser of the many alternative evils
Rheghead, What has become of my skeptic orger hero?
Doctors above suspicion. Dr. Crippen? Dr. Shipman? etc etc. Where have you put Ockham's razor today?
Douglas Adam and Carl Sagan must be spinning in their cosmos.
They left their child alone in a foreign country without supervision. They have paid the ultimate price for their negligence, but should they be charged with neglecting their children?
As spmeone involved in a caring profession I know that large numbers of parents leave their children for periods day and evening unsupervised. Many have larch key children who come home from school and enter an empty house for between one and five hours. Others let their young children roam outside during afternoon and evening, even in the dark, unsupervised.
I guess some of those voting for punishment are those very people with double standards.
thefugitive1993
18-Sep-07, 15:31
As spmeone involved in a caring profession I know that large numbers of parents leave their children for periods day and evening unsupervised. Many have larch key children who come home from school and enter an empty house for between one and five hours. Others let their young children roam outside during afternoon and evening, even in the dark, unsupervised.
I guess some of those voting for punishment are those very people with double standards.
I agree entirely; however I think you meant to say, "Larch tree", not "Larch key", which doesn't make sense.
I agree entirely; however I think you meant to say, "Larch tree", not "Larch key", which doesn't make sense.
i think its actualy latch key - comes from leaving the door on the latch and is meant to mean those children who are given a key to let themselves in - i think its largely been replaced by "home alone"
yes squidge, i agree with you. I say it is latch key as well. when i was young, people could leave their key hanging on a string at the back of the door, so when friends and family visited they just put their hand in the letter box and pulled the string through and they got into the house that way. Imagine doing that now. The house would be cleared when you got home eh!!!:roll:
thefugitive1993
18-Sep-07, 17:26
i think its actualy latch key - comes from leaving the door on the latch and is meant to mean those children who are given a key to let themselves in - i think its largely been replaced by "home alone"
I think I know what a latch key is; just a wee joke at the expense of someone hitting the r key instead of the adjacent t. If you look elsewhere in the posting, you'll find another similar typo. Great sleuth work anyway, well done.
As spmeone involved in a caring profession I know that large numbers of parents leave their children for periods day and evening unsupervised. Many have larch key children who come home from school and enter an empty house for between one and five hours. Others let their young children roam outside during afternoon and evening, even in the dark, unsupervised.
I guess some of those voting for punishment are those very people with double standards.
If you know parents or guardians who let their two year old do what you are suggesting you may want to have a talk with them or make a call to social services.
I may be wrong but my understanding is that if this happened in the UK the parents are automatically looked at as suspects.
I think it is important to keep an open mind on all sides. Much like we can't decide if the McCanns were directly involved
I decided at the beginning that there was absolutely no way the parents were directly involved. It makes a big difference in how someone will vote for or against punishment. Not knowing whether they are guilty or innocent would certainly sway my vote.
This thread is about the McCanns and the circumstances surrounding their plight. Not the habits of other parents although the point is being made that negligence happens in degrees.
We have different ways on judging child negligance. I'll use the term loosely but it also allows me not to forget how right, those of you calling for punishment, could be. It's an almost impregnable position when it comes to discussing what exactly is and isnt child negligance?
So why do I feel theres something not quite right about your stance towards the McCanns? Its only a feeling. Its difficult to define with words and for that reason I can only say I feel it. I would be interested to know how others, who voted no, came to their decisions? Was it based on a feeling or, like tristan, was it calculated and intelectualised?
I know as much about the tabloid McCanns as anyone so why do I fall on thier side even though what Tristan, and a lot of others say, is very relavent?
Ive said enough about what I feel about the case. My hope is that Madeline is found. Otherwise I hope that the McCanns will be allowed to lead as normal a life as we will allow them.
There is a young lad who has been missing here in Britain for over a week now. He went missing in very suspicious circumstances. Has anybody heard anything about him or doesn't he matter?
Gleeber, why do you feel "there is something not quite right" about those who think the McCanns should not have left their babies, for that is what I would certainly call at least the twins, if not Madeleine, for such a long period when they were well out of earshot. I don't think that is in dispute seeing it would appear to be their own version of events. Certainly the twins were of an age where they would not have been able to attract attention other than by crying or, not intending to be melodramatic, screaming in the hope that somebody would hear them and do something. All it needed was for one of them to have had a nightmare shortly after they were left and anybody who has had children knows how terrifying that can be for them even when there is somebody close by to comfort them.
What I find amazing is that a group of obviously very intelligent people never gave a thought to something as simple as that.
One of the party it would appear, and this has never been contradicted, stated that they were late for the meal because they were delayed by having to attend to their "sick child".
I would probably have been more inclined to be sympathetic if those concerned had behaved in that manner because they were too lacking in intelligence to know any better. Those involved were mostly fully qualified medical people who, by their very profession, must realise how easily a very small child can come to harm without anybody else being involved.
The fact that all of them, and many others, are willing to shrug their behaviour off as just being one of those things people do on holiday because they feel relaxed I find absolutely astonishing.
With regards to the young lad that is missing, has anybody heard of any borders being closed and airports being checked in case somebody takes him abroad?
Has there been any kind of national publicity?
Has anybody heard of any areas being sealed off and fingertip searches being made?
Has his photo been all over the National Media?
From what I have heard of the claims the public have been making then all that must have been done immediately. Massive numbers of Britain’s population seem to be convinced that the British Police are so brilliant at solving this sort of thing, when compared with the idle incompetent or even corrupt Portuguese Police, that the boy should have been found within 24 hours and be back where he belongs with everybody living happily ever after.
Once again, I won’t be holding my breath waiting for that to happen. And, in case anybody is waiting for his parents to mount a massive publicity campaign, don’t, because it isn’t going to happen.
Strange how some missing children are considered worth far more effort and sympathy than others when it comes to finding them.
I find the difference rather sickening personally.
I agree with what you say Jaws, I dont see how one child can be given so much publicity when so many others are missing surely a childs life means just as much no matter where they are from or who their parents are.
Maybe madeleine would still be with her parents had they not left their kids alone maybe not we will never know, IF there was an abductor and i say if because no one actually knows that for sure either, then they are so lucky it was only 1 child that was taken.
They made a concious decision to leave them alone as you say two were nothing more than babies, i find it hard to understand how they could think it was safe to leave such young children, and especially in a holiday resort where there are lots of strangers, lets face it who knows everyone on a holiday resort and at the end of the day they will have to live with what they have done.
I know if my parents were to tell me when i was older that my sister was abducted from a hloiday resort because they had left us all alone i wouldnt think much of them at all, they will also have to live with the consequence's of tellin their other kids.
I hope that Madeleine will be found safe god only knows what that poor little soul has suffered.
In another thread, I suggested ever so slightly that some rape victims may be partly responsible for the crime committed against them if they had dressed, acted inappropriately or put themselves in a vulnerable position. My suggestion was largely met with disagreement and general uproar. However, the McCanns have acted inappropriately and put their children in a vulnerable position, yet they've been the subject of criticism.
In another thread, I suggested ever so slightly that some rape victims may be partly responsible for the crime committed against them if they had dressed, acted inappropriately or put themselves in a vulnerable position. My suggestion was largely met with disagreement and general uproar. However, the McCanns have acted inappropriately and put their children in a vulnerable position, yet they've been the subject of criticism.
Because they have put their children in a vulnerable position, Rheghead........they are at liberty to do whatever stupid thing they want to themselves, as we all are...........but not where their inappropriate actions put their children at risk.
Precisely, they did not put themselves at risk as in Rheghead’s example, they put somebody else, namely their children, at risk and that is a very huge difference.
Why has nobody, except sam, come up with any comment on the missing lad or is his life, and it is believed that he is highly likely that he has come to some very serious harm, of no consequence?
I am really interested to know the answer to that one or is concern relative to how much the "sympathy card" can be publicised?
Could it be that, without distraught parents to interview and sympathise with the child does not matter?
Because they have put their children in a vulnerable position, Rheghead........they are at liberty to do whatever stupid thing they want to themselves, as we all are...........but not where their inappropriate actions put their children at risk.
Since they had custody of their own children then any assault on their children is an assault on them and visa versa as the children cannot defend themselves, so I think it is a weak arguement if you delegate responsibility of one's safety onto the individual because in effect they are one family unit. In terms of prevention of crime, if you leave it easy for criminals then shouldn't it be partly one's fault if you get offended against, at least that is how insurance companies see it if you leave your car keys in the ignition.
TBH, I do not know the moral answer to this conundrum, I am not taking any sides or even picking on anybody's view(I know you always think I do), I am just exploring other ways to look at it.
Precisely, they did not put themselves at risk as in Rheghead’s example, they put somebody else, namely their children, at risk and that is a very huge difference.
Why has nobody, except sam, come up with any comment on the missing lad or is his life, and it is believed that he is highly likely that he has come to some very serious harm, of no consequence?
I am really interested to know the answer to that one or is concern relative to how much the "sympathy card" can be publicised?
Could it be that, without distraught parents to interview and sympathise with the child does not matter?
You havnt got a monopoly on sympathy Jaws.
This thread is about whether the McCanns should be punished for their negligance not about the lengths you will go to, to confirm how morally right you are about how bad the Mccanns have been.
Now, get over it or start another thread about the human personality and how different people are and why?
You havnt got a monopoly on sympathy Jaws.
This thread is about whether the McCanns should be punished for their negligance not about the lengths you will go to, to confirm how morally right you are about how bad the Mccanns have been.
Now, get over it or start another thread about the human personality and how different people are and why?
That must be the first time anybody has accused me of having any degree of sympathy, let alone a monopoly.
As for the comment that I am trying to show how “morally right” I am, that makes a change from the usual comment thrown out at many posters here. People who insist others are somehow callous for not weeping crocodile tears in a public display of their “caring humanity and unending sympathy” usually throw out the comment that other are “claiming the Moral High ground”.
there have been numerous threads started about this subject and starting another and another and another will serve no purpose seeing they would only be a variation on the same set of circumstances. One thread on this subject is quite enough, thank you.
This thread, and those similar threads prior to it, have been turned, by some, into a display of their "humanity" and their "caring nature" towards the parents of a missing child.
My point is why should there be such an open display of sympathy over one missing child when another child missing in circumstances just as mysterious goes totally uncommented on.
The fact that the McCanns have been very busy for the past few months spending most of their time and effort, whilst originally claiming it was for their daughter's benefit, in showing more concern for their own public image.
Somewhere along the line they seem to have arrived at the conclusion that their reputations are the main concern and their missing daughter seems to have been sidelined.
The latest spin doctor, who has made great play that he has left a good Government job as director of the Central Office of Information's media monitoring unit within the Cabinet Office in Whitehall for the benefit of the supporting the McCanns.
What he does not say is that he had been seconded from that job to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, according to the Central Office of Information for the specific purpose of "handling media relations related to the Madeleine McCann "disappearance"
Anybody remember when this or any other British Government took such action for a British child missing abroad?
As I say, it seems that one missing child and her parents are being treated as of far more importance and worthy of far more public concern than any other.
While the McCanns are busily Grandstanding for their own benefit to show what “caring parents” they wish people to see them as, in order to gain public sympathy, other children missing children, who are just as likely to be suffering in horrific circumstances, are being totally sidelined.
The fact that, as usual, you duck the issue put forward by saying “take it away” and that others showing concern for only one missing child say nothing is quite enough of an answer for me and no doubt others.
When the child missing in this Country, who, incidentally stands more chance of being found here than a child missing in Portugal, I will make it known and also the dire circumstances surrounding that disappearance.
Unfortunately, his parents are never likely to be found in order that they can be punished for their behaviour towards him, but then again, perhaps there would be a loud outcry that the “had already suffered enough”!
I am a little puzzled why, in view of the belief that had the British Police been dealing with the McCann case then the issue would have been solve immediately, the British Police seem unable to do that very thing here in their own Country.
Somewhere along the line they seem to have arrived at the conclusion that their reputations are the main concern and their missing daughter seems to have been sidelined.
I have picked up on that point as well, may be it is just me but it seems that it is working against their image. Instead of them whining and moaning all the time, I would have more respect for them if they just kept quietly noble and went along and supported the efforts of the Portuguese police. It seems they are more bothered about their careers now than finding madeleine.
connieb19
21-Sep-07, 09:39
What I cannot understand is that if the McCanns think that the Portugese police are so incompetent how on earth do they expect them to find Madeleine and why are they not using the fund money to physically hunt for her instead of posters ect?
As for the other child who is missing, I havn't even heard anything about it on the news at all, which makes it all the more odd so much attention is being given to one child. How hurtful it must be to the family that their child is so unimportant.
That must be the first time anybody has accused me of having any degree of sympathy, let alone a monopoly.
As for the comment that I am trying to show how “morally right” I am, that makes a change from the usual comment thrown out at many posters here. People who insist others are somehow callous for not weeping crocodile tears in a public display of their “caring humanity and unending sympathy” usually throw out the comment that other are “claiming the Moral High ground”.
there have been numerous threads started about this subject and starting another and another and another will serve no purpose seeing they would only be a variation on the same set of circumstances. One thread on this subject is quite enough, thank you.
This thread, and those similar threads prior to it, have been turned, by some, into a display of their "humanity" and their "caring nature" towards the parents of a missing child.
My point is why should there be such an open display of sympathy over one missing child when another child missing in circumstances just as mysterious goes totally uncommented on.
The fact that the McCanns have been very busy for the past few months spending most of their time and effort, whilst originally claiming it was for their daughter's benefit, in showing more concern for their own public image.
Somewhere along the line they seem to have arrived at the conclusion that their reputations are the main concern and their missing daughter seems to have been sidelined.
The latest spin doctor, who has made great play that he has left a good Government job as director of the Central Office of Information's media monitoring unit within the Cabinet Office in Whitehall for the benefit of the supporting the McCanns.
What he does not say is that he had been seconded from that job to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, according to the Central Office of Information for the specific purpose of "handling media relations related to the Madeleine McCann "disappearance"
Anybody remember when this or any other British Government took such action for a British child missing abroad?
As I say, it seems that one missing child and her parents are being treated as of far more importance and worthy of far more public concern than any other.
While the McCanns are busily Grandstanding for their own benefit to show what “caring parents” they wish people to see them as, in order to gain public sympathy, other children missing children, who are just as likely to be suffering in horrific circumstances, are being totally sidelined.
The fact that, as usual, you duck the issue put forward by saying “take it away” and that others showing concern for only one missing child say nothing is quite enough of an answer for me and no doubt others.
When the child missing in this Country, who, incidentally stands more chance of being found here than a child missing in Portugal, I will make it known and also the dire circumstances surrounding that disappearance.
Unfortunately, his parents are never likely to be found in order that they can be punished for their behaviour towards him, but then again, perhaps there would be a loud outcry that the “had already suffered enough”!
I am a little puzzled why, in view of the belief that had the British Police been dealing with the McCann case then the issue would have been solve immediately, the British Police seem unable to do that very thing here in their own Country.
I am VERY surprised that Fred hasn’t been on with the conspiracy theorists link between the UK Government push to rekindle the Nuclear Power industry and the Madeleine McCann disappearance.
As it stands at the moment i think that the McCanns are punishing themselves enough, just for leaving their kids alone like they did. God knows i certainly would not wish to be in their shoes. there do,es not seem to be much evidence against them, although the entire case just doe,snt seem right somehow. I think that now they deserve a bit of peace to sort out what they are going to do next. I dont think this is over yet . the full truth will come out eventually.
It hardly made a ripple in the press, but the MCanns WERE interviewed by Social Workers concerning their Parenting techniques. Rather unsurprisingly, it was concluded that their twins were in no danger whatever. What other punishment is lined up now that this has been clarified?
connieb19
21-Sep-07, 15:11
It hardly made a ripple in the press, but the MCanns WERE interviewed by Social Workers concerning their Parenting techniques. Rather unsurprisingly, it was concluded that their twins were in no danger whatever. What other punishment is lined up now that this has been clarified?
I wonder if the social services checked on the children of the other couples who also left their children?
I am VERY surprised that Fred hasn’t been on with the conspiracy theorists link between the UK Government push to rekindle the Nuclear Power industry and the Madeleine McCann disappearance.OMG and I thought I was the only one who knew about that one! :D
It hardly made a ripple in the press, but the MCanns WERE interviewed by Social Workers concerning their Parenting techniques. Rather unsurprisingly, it was concluded that their twins were in no danger whatever. What other punishment is lined up now that this has been clarified?When was that decision made?
How many of us have looked at the results of this ballot and read the posts on this thread and wondered why we remain members of this 'community'? I know of at least two others that feel the same.
When was that decision made?
Last week. Unless of course, it was made-up. I keep hearing that we cannot believe ANYTHING.
NickInTheNorth
23-Sep-07, 13:56
How many of us have looked at the results of this ballot and read the posts on this thread and wondered why we remain members of this 'community'? I know of at least two others that feel the same.
Far as I'm aware anyone is free to leave at anytime :roll:
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