View Full Version : No Tulips from Amsterdam.
Theres been so much said recently about religion that I thought it was about time we had a more educated discussion about cannabis than any of us has managed in the past 6 years on the org.
Mind you I can't see any difference between discussing drugs or discussing God. Both concern a deep down belief about something that effects everyone.
I spent a week in Amsteredam recently. Holland tolerates the open use of Cannabis, has cannabis bars in every street beside every pub, and manages these establishments as thorough as any customs man would sniff out dope at an airport.
On the other hand, in Britain, as everyone complains about the morals in society, Gordon brown is likely to reclassify certain brands of cannabis, making their use more criminal to those who will be unfortunate enough to be caught with it.
I disagree with Gordon Brown.
Cannabis needs to become available, as a drug of choice, to combat the rising abuse of alcohol amongst our young?
Cannabis bars could be opened in any town or city under the same strict liciensing laws as alcohol enjoys at the moment. The Salvation Army could even sell the War Cry on a Friday night.
No need to make it legal. Make some rules then watch what happens?
Opinions please.
I totally agree with you on this one. Many many years ago i tried it but it wasn't for me...... Now i have aches and pains i have tried it again and yes it works better than any pills. I might add i never buy it. just indulge when and if it happens to be about. Jan x
Theres been so much said recently about religion that I thought it was about time we had a more educated discussion about cannabis than any of us has managed in the past 6 years on the org.
Mind you I can't see any difference between discussing drugs or discussing God. Both concern a deep down belief about something that effects everyone.
I spent a week in Amsteredam recently. Holland tolerates the open use of Cannabis, has cannabis bars in every street beside every pub, and manages these establishments as thorough as any customs man would sniff out dope at an airport.
On the other hand, in Britain, as everyone complains about the morals in society, Gordon brown is likely to reclassify certain brands of cannabis, making their use more criminal to those who will be unfortunate enough to be caught with it.
I disagree with Gordon Brown.
Cannabis needs to become available, as a drug of choice, to combat the rising abuse of alcohol amongst our young?
Cannabis bars could be opened in any town or city under the same strict liciensing laws as alcohol enjoys at the moment. The Salvation Army could even sell the War Cry on a Friday night.
No need to make it legal. Make some rules then watch what happens?
Opinions please.perhaps you would like crack bars as well or even a cafe for glue sniffing. l say lets get tough on drug dealers do as they do in the east [dada is death] hang the dealers.
perhaps you would like crack bars as well or even a cafe for glue sniffing. l say lets get tough on drug dealers do as they do in the east [dada is death] hang the dealers.
The whole argument being presented by gleeber would completely do away with drug dealers!:confused
karia
orkneylass
08-Sep-07, 19:30
perhaps you would like crack bars as well or even a cafe for glue sniffing. l say lets get tough on drug dealers do as they do in the east [dada is death] hang the dealers.
Well then, why not include alcohol and tobacco??? Ofcourse that would mean hanging the government as through taxation on these items, they are far and away the biggest drug dealers in the country.
I agree with decriminalising cannabis, just as long as the facts about lung cancer and mental illness are publicised alongside it.
Well then, why not include alcohol and tobacco??? Ofcourse that would mean hanging the government as through taxation on these items, they are far and away the biggest drug dealers in the country.
I agree with decriminalising cannabis, just as long as the facts about lung cancer and mental illness are publicised alongside it.i am a recovering alcoholic who once smoked,these drugs are legal if we like it or not.
orkneylass
08-Sep-07, 19:45
i am a recovering alcoholic who once smoked,these drugs are legal if we like it or not.
So what point are you making? That all drugs should be illegal? Or the status quo?
Many people will argue quite persuasively that alcohol causes more problems in society than all illegal drugs put together, and that the biggest social impact of illegal drugs is crime associated with drug dealing, rather than the direct effects of the drugs themselves.
I am not denying that ALL drugs have dangers and negative effects. I think the problem is that we now have a situation where some are legal and some are not...and it is certainly noy based on relative harm (tobacco kills more people than alcohol, drugs, road accidents, suicide and HIV added together by a factor of about 10)
So what point are you making? That all drugs should be illegal? Or the status quo?
Many people will argue quite persuasively that alcohol causes more problems in society than all illegal drugs put together, and that the biggest social impact of illegal drugs is crime associated with drug dealing, rather than the direct effects of the drugs themselves.
I am not denying that ALL drugs have dangers and negative effects. I think the problem is that we now have a situation where some are legal and some are not...and it is certainly noy based on relative harm (tobacco kills more people than alcohol, drugs, road accidents, suicide and HIV added together by a factor of about 10)the status quo. i would like to see the goverment do more to help folkes with alcohol and nicotine addictions.
So what point are you making? That all drugs should be illegal? Or the status quo?
Many people will argue quite persuasively that alcohol causes more problems in society than all illegal drugs put together, and that the biggest social impact of illegal drugs is crime associated with drug dealing, rather than the direct effects of the drugs themselves.
I am not denying that ALL drugs have dangers and negative effects. I think the problem is that we now have a situation where some are legal and some are not...and it is certainly noy based on relative harm (tobacco kills more people than alcohol, drugs, road accidents, suicide and HIV added together by a factor of about 10)
Hi Orkneylass,
Hear! Hear!
You just saved my typing finger by saying it all.
If botheeds argument is with the drug dealers , then surely this removes them from the equation...:confused
But I have said that already!;)
Karia
, legalise it and it gets easier for the young to get as it will become cheaper and thats the target that the dealers want, get them hooked & there,s a customer for life. and dont think that legalising it will get rid of the dealers cause i dont think so. they will just sell it cheaper but more of it ,you will still have to buy it . It has now been proved that cannibis is not only addictive but more harmfull than tobacco. think it kinda melts the brain and causes illnesses like dimentia etc,so ive read. it s the younger free,er wilder generation coming up now that i,d be concerned for. anyway thats my opinion and what do i know i,ve never had the inclination to try any of it
Many people will argue quite persuasively that alcohol causes more problems in society than all illegal drugs put together, and that the biggest social impact of illegal drugs is crime associated with That's because burglaries, muggings, shoplifting and countless other crimes carried out to feed £500 heroin habits do not get recorded as "Drug Related".
If you compare the numbers of drug addicts with the numbers of people who consume alcohol then the drug addicts commit a disproportionate number of offences for their numbers.
Add to that the fact that if somebody who has had a mixture of drugs and alcohol, however little alcohol that may be, commits an offence then that will be recorded as “Alcohol Related”. The reason that is if anybody asks how it was known the person had been drinking then the simple answer is, “I could smell it on his breath”.
Saves all that messing about with blood samples and waiting for results to prove drugs have been taken.
1 small sticking point for you.. smoking inside in public places is now illegal in britain..doesnt matter what you are smoking..
[quote=JAWS;269468]That's because burglaries, muggings, shoplifting and countless other crimes carried out to feed £500 heroin habits do not get recorded as "Drug Related".
If you compare the numbers of drug addicts with the numbers of people who consume alcohol then the drug addicts commit a disproportionate number of offences for their number
Of course that is the case!
I like a glass or two of wine in the evening,..as it is legal ..I don't have to commit burglaries, muggings etc to facilitate 'my habit',..prices are 'regulated'.
K.
sassylass
08-Sep-07, 20:48
Addiction is addiction whether the substance is legal or illegal. It has lots to do with the personality and/or genetic make up, some can handle it and others cannot. Cannabis has many positive attributes and many negative ones too. Just as wine in moderation can be good for some, but to others it's poison. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single positive thing about tobacco, yet it's the most addictive drug out there and legal...go figure.
1 small sticking point for you.. smoking inside in public places is now illegal in britain..doesnt matter what you are smoking..
Game, set and match (not the one you light the joint with) to Dadie. Let Gleeber go to 'Pot' if he wishes. The dangers of cannibis are very well known so why make it easier for our young people to kill themsleves?
Game, set and match (not the one you light the joint with) to Dadie. Let Gleeber go to 'Pot' if he wishes. The dangers of cannibis are very well known so why make it easier for our young people to kill themsleves?
Not quite game set and match.
The smoking laws wouldnt be a problem Cannabis mixes well with most foods.
there could be the obligatory smoking area for those who are inclined to smoke.
Cedric Farthsbottom III
08-Sep-07, 21:12
A friend once smoked cannabis,so he told me.This friend once had three pints of cider.This friend also had a 20 deck o' fags.Ma friend told me he was a total nutter on the cider and spoke to God on the big white phone.So ma view is every substance is gonnae have a different effect on yersel.So stick to the one that makes ye feel alright.
[quote=JAWS;269468]That's because burglaries, muggings, shoplifting and countless other crimes carried out to feed £500 heroin habits do not get recorded as "Drug Related".
If you compare the numbers of drug addicts with the numbers of people who consume alcohol then the drug addicts commit a disproportionate number of offences for their number
Of course that is the case!
I like a glass or two of wine in the evening,..as it is legal ..I don't have to commit burglaries, muggings etc to facilitate 'my habit',..prices are 'regulated'.
K.
Very true Karia. If an alcoholic required £500 to feed his habit there would be an awful lot more crimes committed in order to fund it. If you look at the alcohol market you will see endless cheap ciders, such as White Lighning, White Star, Scimitar etc that have probably never seen an apple in their life but do have a percentage of alcohol more akin to wine than beer. I used to refer to that range as "Buzz Wagon Material"
I reckon you could probably get well blitzed for about about £7 if you shopped around the supermarkets for the "Firewater"
Attempts to tackle drugs by making them illegal seem to have failed. Their illegal nature automatically brings a risk factor for sellers, who inflate the price to balance the risk/reward element. It also provides a magnetic effect to attract existing criminal organisations of various sizes.
I happen to think that if kids want to take drugs, they will take them. With it being illegal, who knows what cack they might be supplied with and what extra danger that might bring. I think we would be kidding ourselves on to believe that illegality of drugs makes it more difficult for people to obtain it if they make their mind up to use them.
[quote=karia;269470]
Very true Karia. If an alcoholic required £500 to feed his habit there would be an awful lot more crimes committed in order to fund it. If you look at the alcohol market you will see endless cheap ciders, such as White Lighning, White Star, Scimitar etc that have probably never seen an apple in their life but do have a percentage of alcohol more akin to wine than beer. I used to refer to that range as "Buzz Wagon Material"
I reckon you could probably get well blitzed for about about £7 if you shopped around the supermarkets for the "Firewater"
Attempts to tackle drugs by making them illegal seem to have failed. Their illegal nature automatically brings a risk factor for sellers, who inflate the price to balance the risk/reward element. It also provides a magnetic effect to attract existing criminal organisations of various sizes.
I happen to think that if kids want to take drugs, they will take them. With it being illegal, who knows what cack they might be supplied with and what extra danger that might bring. I think we would be kidding ourselves on to believe that illegality of drugs makes it more difficult for people to obtain it if they make their mind up to use them.
Thanks Scorrie, and let's not forget the sheer 'frisson' and allure of the illegal and out of bounds to the teenage mind.
I tried cannabis once or twice and frankly..it's not 'all that'.
I often think that if the visceral clutch brigade were to try it, they would be Soooo disappointed!
Did this experience send me looking for harder drugs and more elaborate thrills,..sorry to disappoint, but no!:roll:
As you say..those who will..will! Let us not add a life of crime to their problems.
Karia
Very true Karia. If an alcoholic required £500 to feed his habit there would be an awful lot more crimes committed in order to fund it. If you look at the alcohol market you will see endless cheap ciders, such as White Lighning, White Star, Scimitar etc that have probably never seen an apple in their life but do have a percentage of alcohol more akin to wine than beer. I used to refer to that range as "Buzz Wagon Material"
That's something I hadn't considered. Make illegal drugs widely available and very cheap in order to cut crime.
I'm surprised the Government haven't haven't got a sign outside every Police station, "Get your free fix here!"
That's something I hadn't considered. Make illegal drugs widely available and very cheap in order to cut crime.
I'm surprised the Government haven't haven't got a sign outside every Police station, "Get your free fix here!"
That would certainly help!
A 'free fix ' is one they don't have to rob or mug to facilitate...and they are not exposed to the so called larger crimes of dealing and smuggling!
A police station is ideal as the dealers wouldn't have a bar of it.
Thanks for suggesting it JAWS..and I thought you didn't agree with gleeber!;)
Karia
I thought it was about time we had a more educated discussion about cannabis than any of us has managed in the past 6 years on the org. You haven't learned much about the org in 6 years then. I predict it'll be much the same as all the others.
You know what.... Gleeber's quite right, this could actually spawn a good debate if people stopped and looked at some wider implications here.
No, I do not approve of illegal drugs in any shape or form - I'd quite happily run down several people in our area that are known dealers. That is, known by the community to be dealing, and known by the local police also.
But cannabis.... is it really that bad for us? Well, quite honestly, I don't think so.
If you stand back a second and look at some of our 20th century counter bought medications, let's see, in laymans terms, how it all stacks up.
So, why can't we have legal cannabis - if only for medicinal purposes, pain relif and have it easily available?
If the makers of paracetamol tried to patent those little white tablets in 2007, they would be laughed at, and we would never have it on our shelves - it's probably one of the most dangerous and widely available counter drugs we can get. It's potentially far more dangerous than cannabis could be.
OK, so cannabis can turn your brain to mush... so can phenobarbitones, but epileptics are often consigned to a lifetime of usage, so why are we not debating the widespread use of those?
Cannabis could lead to harder drugs... yes admittedly, but if a person goes down those routes, they wouldn't need cannabis as the excuse, other drugs are available at most nightclubs, and cheaper and easier to take - as in 'pop a quick pill'.... My eldest daughter informs me that E's are a fiver for 2 in the town at most places on a weekend.
I have tried cannabis twice... both times when I was a student nurse... at the doctors parties - provided by the doctors, and used by the doctors - I much preferred the lager effect. ;)
Taking away the illegal status of cannabis could have far reaching consequences, but would they really all be bad ones? Is Holland a country full of druggies or gangland culture? The answer is no. And yes, I know I am generalising, and they too have their problems, just not as advanced as ours.
The majority of cafe users in Holland are NOT the druggies of society, they don't mug old ladies for their next coffee & marijuana lunch, and they are allowed to partake in an environment which is closely monitored.
To legalise the sale of marijuana and bring it under the belt of government would take a lot of power away at street level for many of our british scrotes. And that can only be a good thing.
Saying all this, cannabis is banned from our house, my girls know this - I daresay they've dabbled, but they know my feelings & in case anyone is in any doubt, I am against.... but that's not to say that there isn't a place for it in our society today.
Forgive me if I don't reply - we're off to Ireland in 12 hours till friday, Andy has 5 interviews in 4 days, bless him!
Enjoy the debate.
Julie
xx
orkneylass
09-Sep-07, 11:11
The balance needs to between harm, free choice and personal responsibility. The facts about the harm done by tobacco and alcohol speak for themselves. Informed choice enables people to decide whether or not to use these legal drugs. A minority of people will be genetically predisposed towards developing a problem with alcohol. Others will self-medicate for psychological problems and become dependent. Some people who try tobacco will get physically addicted, others will smoke as a social habit.
Cannabis is not without dangers. Smoked, it is more carcinogenic than tobacco alone - in Glasgow they are seeing lung cancers in people in their 30's. It also makes people apathetic and can cause a clever kid to drop out of uni etc. Worst of all, it can trigger serious mental health problems in people, including schizophrenia. However, in this respect it is just like alcohol - dangerous for some people who are genetically pre-disposed to respond badly to it, and dangerous when used to blot out problems and as a life coping thing.
None of these substances causes instant death although alcohol can poison people at high levels, cause people to choke on their own vomit, or disinhibit people so that they misjudge situations with fatal consequences.
Even heroin causes little or no harm to the body if it's use is carefully regulated.
At the end of the day, I am more interested in how the quality of things is regulated, who benefits from trading in these things, how well informed people are about their use, what the effects are on people's behaviour and particularly on criminality (alcohol does worst of all here!), social attitudes and how these relate to the real facts, the effects of criminalising one group of people whilst being socially accepting of another, and what genetics is going to contribute once we can predict who will be harmed and who will not.
Most of all, in relation to the thread about "were people happier in the old days", why we are so stressed and unhappy these days that we do not develop positive coping skills, but feel the need to get out our heads, one way or another, just to get by.
Yes, lets have an intellectual debate based on fact, not an emotional knee jerk rant.
rockchick
09-Sep-07, 11:42
Cannabis seems to be getting stronger and more dangerous in the last 20-30 years, either due to growing techniques or by being cut with other drugs to make it more potent. If cannabis use was legalized, there would be quality controls imposed upon it, which would make recreational or other use of this drug safer for the user.
An alcohol equivalent would be homemade Moonshine vs. store-bought Vodka - I know which one I'd drink!
Tobacco, Alcohol, and prescription Drugs are all legal in the UK. But you can buy Bootleg Tobacco, and Bootleg Alcohol that is flooding the UK from countries such as China and Bulgaria, and made with all sorts of nasties in them. And some of the biggest sales on the illeagal drugs market are Prescription Drugs. Where do they come from?
So why would legalising Cannabis make a blind bit of difference, there is all ways someone wanting a "Bargain" and will be willing to buy what has just fallen off the back of a lorry.
How many of us have not been tempted by these under the counter purchases? And who controls all this but Organised Crime Gangs.
You haven't learned much about the org in 6 years then. I predict it'll be much the same as all the others.
We shall see Crayola. Either your psychic skills will be exposed or my ability to learn will be shattered.
I've learnt something from the org though. Ive learnt to listen to other peoples views and respect them for what they are.
Its not easy when the other person is standing on some high moral ground with an alcohol drink in their hands condemning cannabis. neither is it easy when, like some of the earlier posts in this thread, people jump to conclusions about me and suppose I may be breaking the law. Ive stood up for homosexuals on this forum against the most literate of gay bashers, but I'm not gay.
Nor is it easy when others shout about the dangers to children and claim I am putting their childs safety at risk. In my own way it is those dangers to our children I am trying to address.
The present laws are archaic. 100s of thousands, maybe millions of otherwise respectable citizens are being criminalised by drugs laws that do not work. Cannabis is freely available in every town and city in Britain but there are no controls on it. Its control is in the hands of the criminal underworld and international terrorists.
Last night I was walking along the beach and I spotted 2 young girls about 14 years of age, with an older boy about 16, walking along the promenade. The boy was carrying a carrier bag and was drinking from a tin of export. His wee chesty was already half way out on his way to him becoming a full blown man with a gutful of alcohol. I know how that young man and his friends will feel this morning, but it will be laughed off as par for the course.
Alcohol is a deadly killer, yet most people who knock cannabis will drink alcohol to a greater or lesser degree. For that reason I dont believe that dangers to our children are the reasons for the nasty comments against cannabis users. I think its deeper than that and if this issue is to be debated properly we need to find out what it is at the core of some people that would deny someone the opportunity of indulging in cannabis.
Tobacco, Alcohol, and prescription Drugs are all legal in the UK. But you can buy Bootleg Tobacco, and Bootleg Alcohol that is flooding the UK from countries such as China and Bulgaria, and made with all sorts of nasties in them. And some of the biggest sales on the illeagal drugs market are Prescription Drugs. Where do they come from?
So why would legalising Cannabis make a blind bit of difference, there is all ways someone wanting a "Bargain" and will be willing to buy what has just fallen off the back of a lorry.
How many of us have not been tempted by these under the counter purchases? And who controls all this but Organised Crime Gangs.
I think golach one of the problems with legal drugs is a kind of apathetic approach to their use simply because they are legal.
I would advocate a clamp down on the alcohol laws.
Its not good enough for grown ups like myself to see youngsters dabbling in alcohol and do nothing about it. The same would apply to cannabis use .
I think golach one of the problems with legal drugs is a kind of apathetic approach to their use simply because they are legal.
I would advocate a clamp down on the alcohol laws.
Its not good enough for grown ups like myself to see youngsters dabbling in alcohol and do nothing about it. The same would apply to cannabis use .
I agree the drink laws should be tightened up, and stricter control should be in force. In some states in the US & Canada the legal age to buy alcohol is 20. And I am glad to see that some of our Supermarkets have now adopted a over 25 scheme when alcohol is being purchased, there is one pub in Leith that even has an "Over 25's only" rule.
How would we control Cannabis? Let us all grow our own? Aye Right.
How would we control Cannabis? Let us all grow our own? Aye Right.
I dont know all the answers but I also dont know all the questions because of my prejudice.
One thing that needs to happen would be for people like you to be convinced that it is not the evil you percieve and those of us who would call for decriminalisation are doing it for the best of reasons.
I think being able to grow a plant or 2 without danger of criminalisation would be a good start. Obviously there would need to be lots of rules concerning the process and who would get therir hands on it and the consequences for anyone caught mishandling it.
orkneylass
09-Sep-07, 12:49
there is certainly a powerful argument that says that the violence and anti-social behaviour that we see on our streets every weekend is not something that happens when people use cannabis.
As for the rabid comments about drug dealers, these are probably made by people quite happy to purchase smuggled tobacco or alcohol. People choose to try various substances including illegal drugs - the dealers do not have to "push" it, the users seek them out.
therefore it is more about bringing your children up as confident individuals who know the facts and can make their own decisions, based on self-respect and ambitions for the future, than it is about trying to wipe out the trade. Just as true in preparing the ground for how they will deal with the legal drugs....or not.....
That's something I hadn't considered. Make illegal drugs widely available and very cheap in order to cut crime.
I'm surprised the Government haven't haven't got a sign outside every Police station, "Get your free fix here!"
Don't knock something that hasn't been tried!!
Put yourself in the position of someone desperate to "score". Would you be more liable to take said "freebie" or would you rather pay some sleazebag £50 for the pleasure? If the freebie option is not there and you don't have the £50, then maybe some owld wifie's handbag provides that £50, courtesy of a good hammering.
I try to take on board what other people post on this board and give consideration to the points they make. You come across as someone who has to resort to sarcasm to try to make your own point stand up when the legs have been taken out from under it. The Government and Police ain't gettin the job done with their current methods and with people already able to get Methadone as a substitute for illegal drugs, you could argue that a "free fix" is already in place.
.
I think being able to grow a plant or 2 without danger of criminalisation would be a good start. Obviously there would need to be lots of rules concerning the process and who would get therir hands on it and the consequences for anyone caught mishandling it.
Sorry Gleeber, human nature as it is, will never allow you to grow your own, there are always the greedy ones who would say "hey this is easy money, lets make a profit", and then we are back to square one.
I would love to give you the answer, but IMHO, the way the worlds morality has fallen recently, things which are the norm now to some, would never occured in our younger day.
Sorry Gleeber, human nature as it is, will never allow you to grow your own, there are always the greedy ones who would say "hey this is easy money, lets make a profit", and then we are back to square one.
.
Golach, you miss the point. There will be no easy money nor profit if the black market is removed by allowing anyone to grow their own. If everyone can have it legally and possibly free, no one can profit financially.
It's the black market that creates the criminal aspect.....money plus control equals violence.
Amsterdam is one of the nicest cities I've ever visited, the city is clean and safe, the crime rate is low and people pop into a cafe for whatever they choose to enjoy.
Amsterdam is one of the nicest cities I've ever visited, the city is clean and safe, the crime rate is low and people pop into a cafe for whatever they choose to enjoy.
Not the picture my friends from the Netherlands paint Ht, I would take the word of a resident, rather than the word of a Tourist, and I have been to Damm Square one of the most beautiful sites in Amsterdam, pre the drug era and after the legalisation of Cannabis in the Netherlands now its full of Junkies shooting up and trying to sell the Tourists drugs :mad:
orkneylass
09-Sep-07, 20:17
Really? I must have missed that.
Not the picture my friends from the Netherlands paint Ht, I would take the word of a resident, rather than the word of a Tourist, and I have been to Damm Square one of the most beautiful sites in Amsterdam, pre the drug era and after the legalisation of Cannabis in the Netherlands now its full of Junkies shooting up and trying to sell the Tourists drugs :mad:
Golach, you unfairly try to degrade what I personally experienced by saying that you know someone who has experienced (or simply feared) something else? Doesnt make their experience more true than mine.
And again, you generalize to the extreme. You try to link legal cannibis to junkies shooting up? They are completely different topics.
Golach, you unfairly try to degrade what I personally experienced by saying that you know someone who has experienced (or simply feared) something else? Doesnt make their experience more true than mine.
And again, you generalize to the extreme. You try to link legal cannibis to junkies shooting up? They are completely different topics.
Ht I only go by my own experience, and information, I saw the Jukies shooting up, and my friends who live in the Netherlands, have confirmed what I saw
Don't knock something that hasn't been tried!!
Put yourself in the position of someone desperate to "score". Would you be more liable to take said "freebie" or would you rather pay some sleazebag £50 for the pleasure? If the freebie option is not there and you don't have the £50, then maybe some owld wifie's handbag provides that £50, courtesy of a good hammering.
I try to take on board what other people post on this board and give consideration to the points they make. You come across as someone who has to resort to sarcasm to try to make your own point stand up when the legs have been taken out from under it. The Government and Police ain't gettin the job done with their current methods and with people already able to get Methadone as a substitute for illegal drugs, you could argue that a "free fix" is already in place.What next then, Free Beer for Alkies? Well, it will keep them off the Meths! Perhaps we could give joy riders a free car to reduce Car Crime.
Methadone was not meant to be a "substitute", it was intended to be used as a method of helping addicts off their addiction. The fact that it is simply being used as a replacement, and had created it's own illegal trade resulting in the same crimes being committed, shows that it is not a method of reducing crime.
If it were that simple then all heroin addicts would be on "freeby" methadone.
As for the argument that drugs should be legalised because the government and police aren't getting the job done with the current methods the same thing could be said for Burglaries. Does that mean that burglaries should be legalised because we haven't succeeded in stopping them either?
Making something legal simply because people won't stop doing it is not, and never has been, an answer to anything. Once you start down that road you might as well do away with all laws.
Oh, last time I looked my legs were still very much there and have always remained under me so don't worry about that because I don't.
Ht I only go by my own experience, and information, I saw the Jukies shooting up, and my friends who live in the Netherlands, have confirmed what I saw
What has that to do with gleeber's original question about legalising cannibis. You attempt to link up 2 different things. Junkies might be shooting up in Caithness, but it has nothing to do with cannibis, legal or no.
Seeing junkies shoot up is no more appetizing than seeing a squad of alcohol dependant people passing a bottle of cheap wine to get rid of the early morning trembles. Its awful. For that reason I can sympathise with Golachs experience.
In Amsterdam hard drugs use is frowned upon by people who use cannabis as a form of relaxant. Their establishments are policed strictly by their own sense of responsability towards creating a respectable and accepted environment for those who would use cannabis.
Jaws argument only stands for people who dont want to change the law on cannabis. I disagree but I dont have a moral ground to stand on because Jaws has got there first.
There is large minority who would see the laws changed.There's probably as many wouldnt blink an eyelid if they were. Then there are people who drink alcohol but condemn cannabis use. Thats the issue I want to address.
What on earth is going on here? What dangers do they percieve? Is it their prejudices in keeping cannabis in the back streets that's creating a more serious drugs problem? Or at the very least not addressing the problems we have?
We would still be paying poll tax and sending young kids up chimneys if laws were as rigid as peoples own prejudices.
Its difficult to challenge peoples perceptions at the core of their beings without causing conflict.
So far so good.
I'm not hopeful though.
What has that to do with gleeber's original question about legalising cannibis. You attempt to link up 2 different things. Junkies might be shooting up in Caithness, but it has nothing to do with cannibis, legal or no.
Ht, it was not me that brought up the Netherlands and Amsterdam as an example of legalising Cannabis, I was only pointing out my experience of my latest trip to Amsterdam, Ht, as a Merchant Seaman I landed in Amsterdam many times, I think it is a wonderful city, but I was disgusted the last time I was in the Damm Square.
Seeing junkies shoot up is no more appetizing than seeing a squad of alcohol dependant people passing a bottle of cheap wine to get rid of the early morning trembles. Its awful. For that reason I can sympathise with Golachs experience.
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Gleeber I agree, the sight of these poor sad people passing around bottles of Buckie and bottles of cheap cider in our Capital City appalls me also.
Our City Fathers with the help of Lothian & Borders finest have created two ASBO areas one at Hunter Square in Edinburgh and one at the foot 'o the Walk in Leith, where no drinking is allowed, but this has done nothing but drive the poor addicts into other parts of our city.
What next then, Free Beer for Alkies? Well, it will keep them off the Meths! Perhaps we could give joy riders a free car to reduce Car Crime.
Methadone was not meant to be a "substitute", it was intended to be used as a method of helping addicts off their addiction. The fact that it is simply being used as a replacement, and had created it's own illegal trade resulting in the same crimes being committed, shows that it is not a method of reducing crime.
If it were that simple then all heroin addicts would be on "freeby" methadone.
As for the argument that drugs should be legalised because the government and police aren't getting the job done with the current methods the same thing could be said for Burglaries. Does that mean that burglaries should be legalised because we haven't succeeded in stopping them either?
Making something legal simply because people won't stop doing it is not, and never has been, an answer to anything. Once you start down that road you might as well do away with all laws.
Oh, last time I looked my legs were still very much there and have always remained under me so don't worry about that because I don't.
As we already pointed out, alcohol is relatively cheap. Most alkies seem able to feed their habit. I think alcoholics actually used to get extra money to feed their habit as long as they were registered as an alcoholic.
Unless you can provide figures that prove that Methadone related crime and Heroin related crimes are identical then your point has no validity. You are merely specualting, as far as I can see.
The main point was not about methadone anyway. To assess the idea accurately, we need to consider free heroin being legal. We need to look at whether people having their drug of choice readily available would reduce their need to commit crime to feed the habit. You need to be able to conclusively prove that that would not happen, in order for your opinion to be correct.
You cannot compare theft or other crimes to the "crime" of drug taking. To do so is very unscientific. If someone steals your car to joyride, that is a crime. If someone joyrides in their own car, there is no crime. If someone breaks into your house and steals, then that is a crime. If someone busts their own door down and takes their own goods, then there is no crime.
The taking of a drug is effectively a victimless crime. If the drug purchase was not funded by crime, then who is the victim? You cannot compare that scenario to the crimes you have quoted. To do so smacks of not having thought it through. Your argument is on very shaky legs.
Saw this on YouTube and was struck by the honesty of Craig Ferguson, and also his observation about alcololics in society.......not sure if it adds anything to the legalise canabis theme of the thread, but I think it adds something to the general awareness of alcohol abuse.......as well as other "isms"
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7bbaRyDLMvA
scotsboy, I just finished watching the clip. Thanks for suggesting it. It was excellent.
We shall see Crayola. Either your psychic skills will be exposed or my ability to learn will be shattered.It was a bit better than the last one but as usual it lacked detailed proposals for reform. At this rate it'll take at least 50 years to achieve anything.
It was a bit better than the last one but as usual it lacked detailed proposals for reform. At this rate it'll take at least 50 years to achieve anything.
Its not easy to reform peoples opinions.
Most people who use cannabis as a relaxant know its effects are no more dangerous then alcohol. That being said, alcohol is a particularly dangerous drug so comparing the 2 is not helpful for people who would like to see reform.
I also dont think its helpful to proclaim that cannabis is safer than alcohol because it creates an elitist type mentality on the part of the cannabis user, and this in turn puts the alcohol user, who condemns cannabis, more on their guard for a number of personal reasons.
Getting to the bottom of this taboo type mentality is the first step in reform.
Why would alcohol users openly advocate a nice malt or a good real ale yet condemn someone who would rather have some cannabis?
I dont really know the answer to that question although I suspect it lies very deep in peoples psyche. Without an answer reform will never become a reality not even in 500 years.
One way forward would be for people who use cannabis to become more vocal about its continued status as an illegal drug.People from all walks of life use cannabis but because of the stigma attached to it by unexamined forces in society its safer to keep it quiet.
Another way would be for the politicians who have used cannabis in the past to stand their ground against an uneducated and prejudiced response against cannabis use. By uneducated I mean someone who would still call for alcohol to be legal, knowing all of its dangers, yet call for the continued illegal status of cannabis, purely on the grounds of its perceived and researched dangers. By prejudice I mean deep held personal opinions that bare no more importance to the question of reform than a childs opinion of atomic power.
Holland has created a system that does not create a society of drug crazed degenerates. Switzerland is also in the process of seeking reform for cannabis laws. The links a bit old but Switzerland has in fact relaxed its laws on cannabis use.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/794804.stm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/794804.stm)
I am completely confident that relaxing cannabis laws would not only be beneficial to some of societies ills, but be of massive importance in the fight against more potent drugs use in our communities that need to be rigourously controlled. Reform of more potent drugs is a seperate issue on which i have no valid opinion. Only a personal and prejudiced one.
Cannabis reform will also give alcohol a competitor for the weekend high millions of us seek.
Gleeber, you didn't absorb my comments. You are going round in circles regurgitating the same opinions over and over again. You could have said these things 3 years ago and the thread would have evolved in much the same way.
I gather that you prefer cannabis to alcohol but your arguments come over as personal opinions garnished with your own prejudices and a few loosely veiled jibes at other posters. It's the sort of argument I would expect you to use when having a strop. You need to make a range of proposals for reform, examine possible outcomes, and let others make up their minds. I don't recall seeing anyone other than sweetheart putting forward detailed proposals. You should your lead from him, but of course come up with something better. That would not be difficult. :D
Last but certainly not least, your definition of the word 'uneducated' could have been concocted by a 1960s revolutionary. Do you mean 'unbrainwashed' or do you use it to label anyone who doesn't agree with your opinions and your 'proposals'?
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