View Full Version : Madeleine McCann
the nomad
07-Sep-07, 08:49
Really shocked I have just seen on BBC news website that Madeleine's mother has been declared as a suspect!!!
anneoctober
07-Sep-07, 09:01
This looks like a case at the moment where the portugese police seem to name a suspect when the waters are muddied. It seems that they did n't like the McCann's questioning the investigation and have named Kate in a tit for tat scenario. are we ever going to know what really happened to Maddy? :(
I really dont know what to think about this sad case as we only know what were told by the media. i will reserve any of my comment,s to myself as there do,es seem to be a lot were not being told here ,whether the authoritie.s are keeping it quiet through their bungling or maybe they have some data that,s not yet ready for Joe public, It is a very sad case.
I do hope that the parents ,which im sure they will, will be exonerated fully.
and although it,s unlikely after all this time I,d like to see the wee girl found safe & well. :~(
j4bberw0ck
07-Sep-07, 09:31
Just for the record; she's expected to be named a suspect because, and only because, the Portuguese police want to ask her some "serious" questions - imagine Inspector Frost asking a suspect "did you do it?"
Therefore, under Portuguese law, she must have the right, if she wants it, to silence. To have a right to silence under their law she must have the status of "arguido" - suspect. I suspect in any case (where's Ju?) that the full translation of "arguido" is a lot more subtle than "suspect". Just "suspect" sounds good if you're trying to sell copies of newspapers.
It's roughly the equivalent of "helping with enquiries". Nothing to get excited about...... (all courtesy Radio 4 this morning)
Just for the record; she's expected to be named a suspect because, and only because, the Portuguese police want to ask her some "serious" questions - imagine Inspector Frost asking a suspect "did you do it?"
Therefore, under Portuguese law, she must have the right, if she wants it, to silence. To have a right to silence under their law she must have the status of "arguido" - suspect. I suspect in any case (where's Ju?) that the full translation of "arguido" is a lot more subtle than "suspect". Just "suspect" sounds good if you're trying to sell copies of newspapers.
It's roughly the equivalent of "helping with enquiries". Nothing to get excited about...... (all courtesy Radio 4 this morning)
Yup, they explained all that on breakfast TV too. She's not really being accused of anything. But why should she want to remain silent about anything? Don't get me wrong, i believe she is completely innocent, I just feel if it was me i'd be willing to tell them my innermost secrets if it would help find the real culprit. But then maybe it's not her decision.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6657977.stm
j4bberw0ck
07-Sep-07, 11:14
But why should she want to remain silent about anything? Don't get me wrong, i believe she is completely innocent, I just feel if it was me i'd be willing to tell them my innermost secrets if it would help find the real culprit. But then maybe it's not her decision.
No, it's not that, katerina. It's that she must by law have the right to silence and the only way for her to have that right in Portuguese law is to be an arguido. It would be very surprising if she exercised the right, I agree, but she must in effect be offered it.
Which sounds very fair and reasonable to me!
I feel that the Portugese police are clutching at straws. The interview with the McCanns seems to be bordering on a publicity stunt to show that they are still dealing with the enquiry. However I may be entirely wrong.
on sky news right now they are saying she is a formal suspect
they found blood in the car the mcanns hired 25 days after maddy went missing:confused
well to be honest i did not find it as that much of a suprise.Only my speculation but i have said right from the start that i think madeline would not settle back down when mum went to check on her.I think she may have hit madeline but it got out of hand.I hope that i am not right and that it is all just routine,we will have to wait and see what happens....:(
they are saying that she may be charged for accidental death, what on earth happened to that poor little girl?!:~(
It would be really sad if they did have anything to do with...the last several months would be a shockable publicity stunt to cover up their terrible crime if they committed it.
Unbelievable, but imagine if they don't have anything to do with it how horrifying this must be to be accused of your own daughters death?
dragonfly
07-Sep-07, 16:49
i'm sitting on the fence but I wouldn't be totally shocked if she were guilty.
I think the same way dragonfly.............. I am not surprised they are being questioned again although they are only being classed as an arguido until after the questioning then they are going back to being classed as witness's again according to the news
connieb19
07-Sep-07, 17:24
I do hope that the parents ,which im sure they will, will be exonerated fully.
:~(At the very east they are guilty of neglect.
Boozeburglar
07-Sep-07, 17:31
well to be honest i did not find it as that much of a suprise.Only my speculation but i have said right from the start that i think madeline would not settle back down when mum went to check on her.I think she may have hit madeline but it got out of hand.I hope that i am not right and that it is all just routine,we will have to wait and see what happens....:(
You couldn't wait to see if this was just a routine way of allowing the police to question her before you threw that in?
Pretty sad.
Not only do I think you are 'not right', I think you are belittling what happened by using it as a springboard for playing Holmes.
You have absolutely no idea what happened to that kid, and talk like this is as low as the red tops that print garbage day to day.
lady penelope
07-Sep-07, 17:36
It's just very sad. If she could be found , then at least laid to rest. We may never know what has happened to Madeleine, but I assume she is dead.
Only the person who took her knows.
There has been something strange about this case all along.
You couldn't wait to see if this was just a routine way of allowing the police to question her before you threw that in?
Pretty sad.
Not only do I think you are 'not right', I think you are belittling what happened by using it as a springboard for playing Holmes.
You have absolutely no idea what happened to that kid, and talk like this is as low as the red tops that print garbage day to day.
We are, indeed, in no position to speculate. If we are to have an opinion, I would always give the benefit of the doubt until we find out that is conclusively proven to be the other way.
The Portugese Authorities desperately want to see a conclusion to this case as it impacts heavily upon their reputation as a safe tourist resort for families.
I worry that ANY conclusion may be more important to them than the RIGHT conclusion.
Surely had the parents been involved in any respect, it would have been simpler for them to return home after an interval and let the case fade from the public eye, as it most surely would have done ..instead they stood their ground and made the Portugese police look rather inadequate...and on a world stage at that.
Would the Portugese police resent this enough to 'fit up' the McCann's?
It's not unheard of, is it?
karia
connieb19
07-Sep-07, 17:55
The Portugese Authorities desperately want to see a conclusion to this case as it impacts heavily upon their reputation as a safe tourist resort for families.
I worry that ANY conclusion may be more important to them than the RIGHT conclusion.
Surely had the parents been involved in any respect, it would have been simpler for them to return home after an interval and let the case fade from the public eye, as it most surely would have done ..instead they stood their ground and made the Portugese police look rather inadequate...and on a world stage at that.
Would the Portugese police resent this enough to 'fit up' the McCann's?
It's not unheard of, is it?
kariaThe blood samples were analised in Britain though, do you think they are involved in fitting them up too?
The blood samples were analised in Britain though, do you think they are involved in fitting them up too?
I am not arguing with the blood samples Connie, just saying that things are open to interpretation.
Also, to be frank, if that had been what I was saying...do we Brits have an exemplary record on evidence handling.. be it blood or fingerprints?..I think not!:eek:
karia
The Portugese Authorities desperately want to see a conclusion to this case as it impacts heavily upon their reputation as a safe tourist resort for families.
I worry that ANY conclusion may be more important to them than the RIGHT conclusion.
Surely had the parents been involved in any respect, it would have been simpler for them to return home after an interval and let the case fade from the public eye, as it most surely would have done ..instead they stood their ground and made the Portugese police look rather inadequate...and on a world stage at that.
Would the Portugese police resent this enough to 'fit up' the McCann's?
It's not unheard of, is it?
karia
some could even speculate that they stood their ground because they were guilty, at the end of the day NO-ONE knows and whether the truth comes out in the end well we will all just have to wait and see.
Its not just the portugal police that are involved it was british sniffer dogs that were taken in as well.
I also dont see why people should be afraid to go to that resort with their kids as no one can blame the portugese or the resort for what happened it was the MacCanns who left the kids unatended in the first place, if they hadnt then maybe this would all of been avoided.
To many people are trying to pass the blame and it seems that little maddy herself has been put to the back of people's minds whilst the try to establish who is at fault[disgust]
To many people are trying to pass the blame and it seems that little maddy herself has been put to the back of people's minds whilst the try to establish who is at fault[disgust]
Absoloutely!....but you can hardly accuse the Mccanns of doing anything other than continuously bringing Madeleine to the front of peoples minds.
They refused to 'let it lie' and if they were guilty of any criminal act, I fail to see how prodding at the police to investigate would be to their advantage.
Karia
connieb19
07-Sep-07, 18:28
It's funny how people on here have jumped on Justine for speculating about the Macanns but it's okay for people to do just about the Portugese police.
:confused
I wonder if folk would be so quick to defend the Macanns and blame the police if this couple had not been doctors but taxi drivers or something?
connieb19
07-Sep-07, 18:31
Absoloutely!....but you can hardly accuse the Mccanns of doing anything other than continuously bringing Madeleine to the front of peoples minds.
Karia
And negecting their kids to go out for a good time with their pals.
[quote=karia;268962]Absoloutely!....but you can hardly accuse the Mccanns of doing anything other than continuously bringing Madeleine to the front of peoples minds.
They refused to 'let it lie' and if they were guilty of any criminal act, I fail to see how prodding at the police to investigate would be to their advantage.
Karia[/quote
No one knows for sure if they are innocent or not, no one knows what some one could be capable of maybe the did sedate their kids and something went wrong and they paniced, i would like to believe that this is not the case but it is not some thing i would rule out.
As for prodding the police to keep it open why not if they have given false evidence in the first place to draw the police away from them.
After all does anyone really know for sure that they could not be capable of this
It's funny how people on here have jumped on Justine for speculating about the Macanns but it's okay for people to do just about the Portugese police.
:confused
I wonder if folk would be so quick to defend the Macanns and blame the police if this couple had not been doctors but taxi drivers or something?
connie,
One poster 'jumped on' to Justine, and whilst I agreed with much of what he said I do not agree with such 'singling out'.
I don't know why you think that folk are being quick to defend the McCanns...from what I can see folk are being all too quick to condemn them.
As for speculating about the police...it's called presenting a balanced argument.
Maybe the parents are guilty, maybe not!
The jury is still out....Isn't it?
THAT is my point!
Karia
And negecting their kids to go out for a good time with their pals.
That is the point on which you made your decision Connie.
You think that the care arrangements on that night were reprehensible...maybe they were !
That does not a murder make!
Karia
Camel Spider
07-Sep-07, 18:54
I have just seen the News and it seems the Police in Portugal just want to question her, their definition of suspect seems to be different than here in the UK and as usual the Media are jumping to all sorts of speculation. I dont have any grounds for it but as a parent the circumstances of Maddies disappearance just doesnt feel right to me .. if nothing else they should be charged with neglect in my opinion.
I dont want to comment too much, lets face it no one knows what happened and the media angle that they are definetly innocent is an assumption, lets just see what happens with the forensic evidence that has come to light.
As a father if my child was missing I would be out looking for her or knee deep in the investigation .. not being photographed with the Pope, in America or setting up funds to raise money .. but thats me.
With the amount of media coverage I think that if that poor mite is still alive SOMEBODY would have information.
In all the latest speculation Maddie herself seems to have been forgotten.
connieb19
07-Sep-07, 19:00
That is the point on which you made your decision Connie.
You think that the care arrangements on that night were reprehensible...maybe they were !
That does not a murder make!
Karia
Ive never accused them of murder, not once. What i said was that they are guilty of neglect and should be charged, instead they are being treated like a couple of heros.
not sure what to think of this you can see it from both sides mayby because the police are getting such a hard time over the case then mayby they are looking for a scapecoat, but on the other hand it just doesnt add up at all what really happened i just wish they could find this poor little girl and lay her to rest. god help those who have hurt her parents or not
Ive never accused them of murder, not once. What i said was that they are guilty of neglect and should be charged, instead they are being treated like a couple of heros.
Being treated like heroes ??!!:eek:
karia
celtchicky
07-Sep-07, 19:11
everyone has an opinion on this matter, and personally a dont think the family were involved.
however, i dont think that just because of their profession!!! theres been plenty GP/Dr's out there that have committed murder
we should all reserve judgement until the evidence is in place properly
everyone has an opinion on this matter, and personally a dont think the family were involved.
however, i dont think that just because of their profession!!! theres been plenty GP/Dr's out there that have committed murder
we should all reserve judgement until the evidence is in place properly
Hi celtchicky,
Hear Hear!
Karia
Margaret M.
07-Sep-07, 19:21
we should all reserve judgement until the evidence is in place properly
...either that or get in touch with the Portugese Authorities. If you won't be surprised by their guilt, then you obviously have more facts about the case than the rest of us. I feel sure the police would deeply appreciate your sharing the details with them.
celtchicky
07-Sep-07, 19:23
get a grip!!!
god some people just take things so much the wrong way!!!
this is the latest,if they are innocent then i hope they can prove it
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20070907/tuk-mother-accused-of-killing-madeleine-6323e80_1.html
celtchicky
07-Sep-07, 19:25
.. If you won't be surprised by their guilt, then you obviously have more facts about the case than the rest of us..
why oh why do people make up things that others are meant to have said?????
helenwyler
07-Sep-07, 19:34
Some judgements on this thread are fit only for a kangaroo court[evil].
The speculation going on everywhere at the moment is almost obscene. Those who heckled Kate McCann this afternoon, knowing nothing with certainty, should hang their ignorant vindictive heads in shame.
Amidst so much complexity, unknowing and sickening media hype we should WAIT, and interpret what the Portuguese Police and British DNA experts come up with. Then is the time to judge...firstly whether the evidence is sound, and then the whole sorry affair.
celtchicky
07-Sep-07, 19:37
totally agree :)
Some judgements on this thread are fit only for a kangaroo court[evil].
The speculation going on everywhere at the moment is almost obscene. Those who heckled Kate McCann this afternoon, knowing nothing with certainty, should hang their ignorant vindictive heads in shame.
Amidst so much complexity, unknowing and sickening media hype we should WAIT, and interpret what the Portuguese Police and British DNA experts come up with. Then is the time to judge...firstly whether the evidence is sound, and then the whole sorry affair.
Hi Helen,
I am only glad that the McCanns will not be 'tried' in Caithness!
It is clear that they have already been 'judged'
karia
Karia
armanisgirl
07-Sep-07, 19:56
People will always have differing views and opinions in any high profile case such as this. Nobody should be condemned for airing their feelings, views or opinions. You don't have to agree with anybodys comments. But feelings ARE running high in respect of what happened to poor Maddy. Until such times as she or her body are found, and those involved are identified as a result of concrete evidence, speculation will always be made. The speculations, as usual, are divided. Both sides of the argument about who did or didn't have anything to do with Maddys disappearance hold equal weight in the 'who done it?' guessing game. Inspector Cluedo we may not be, but it won't prevent any of us from making our assumptions. The world shouts out for equality etc, therefore we should allow each person their freedom of speech without getting all hot under the collar just because we don't agree with it. In the meantime, we should all be hoping that the truth DOES come out whatever it is, and that little Maddy is found and reunited with her family, be it in body or in soul.
connieb19
07-Sep-07, 20:00
People will always have differing views and opinions in any high profile case such as this. Nobody should be condemned for airing their feelings, views or opinions. You don't have to agree with anybodys comments. But feelings ARE running high in respect of what happened to poor Maddy. Until such times as she or her body are found, and those involved are identified as a result of concrete evidence, speculation will always be made. The speculations, as usual, are divided. Both sides of the argument about who did or didn't have anything to do with Maddys disappearance hold equal weight in the 'who done it?' guessing game. Inspector Cluedo we may not be, but it won't prevent any of us from making our assumptions. The world shouts out for equality etc, therefore we should allow each person their freedom of speech without getting all hot under the collar just because we don't agree with it. In the meantime, we should all be hoping that the truth DOES come out whatever it is, and that little Maddy is found and reunited with her family, be it in body or in soul.Well said!!
what a well thought out and sensible post armanisgirl!!
People will always have differing views and opinions in any high profile case such as this. Nobody should be condemned for airing their feelings, views or opinions. You don't have to agree with anybodys comments. But feelings ARE running high in respect of what happened to poor Maddy. Until such times as she or her body are found, and those involved are identified as a result of concrete evidence, speculation will always be made. The speculations, as usual, are divided. Both sides of the argument about who did or didn't have anything to do with Maddys disappearance hold equal weight in the 'who done it?' guessing game. Inspector Cluedo we may not be, but it won't prevent any of us from making our assumptions. The world shouts out for equality etc, therefore we should allow each person their freedom of speech without getting all hot under the collar just because we don't agree with it. In the meantime, we should all be hoping that the truth DOES come out whatever it is, and that little Maddy is found and reunited with her family, be it in body or in soul.
Hi armanisgirl,
A well considered and thoughtful post!:)
Look forward to hearing your views on many topics.
karia xx
IF it turns out that the McCanns had anything whatsoever to do with this mystery...... beyond a shadow of a doubt, they will become THE most hated people in our country. And I don't think any one of us would argue against that.
The prison they both end up in would have to have the tightest security too......
If IFS & BUTS were bags of nuts, we'd all be happy squirrels..... :D
People will always have differing views and opinions in any high profile case such as this. Nobody should be condemned for airing their feelings, views or opinions. You don't have to agree with anybodys comments. But feelings ARE running high in respect of what happened to poor Maddy. Until such times as she or her body are found, and those involved are identified as a result of concrete evidence, speculation will always be made. The speculations, as usual, are divided. Both sides of the argument about who did or didn't have anything to do with Maddys disappearance hold equal weight in the 'who done it?' guessing game. Inspector Cluedo we may not be, but it won't prevent any of us from making our assumptions. The world shouts out for equality etc, therefore we should allow each person their freedom of speech without getting all hot under the collar just because we don't agree with it. In the meantime, we should all be hoping that the truth DOES come out whatever it is, and that little Maddy is found and reunited with her family, be it in body or in soul.
I agree lets hope it is resolved
armanisgirl
07-Sep-07, 20:12
Thanks folks. I'm afraid I'm one of these people who can see both sides of an argument! Well. Most of the time! It's a very emotive issue, and nobody wants to believe the parents could be responsible for whatever happened to their child, however, with all the media hype and such, suspicions have been raised. There are so many possible theories we can come up with, but only one will be the correct one. It would be wonderful for a happy ending with Maddy being safely returned, but it seems such a slim chance now. If she isn't alive, I pray Maddy didn't suffer. As they say in Liverpool, she's only a baby. But back to society. Much as all the speculations anger and affect us emotionally, society would be so boring if we all agreed on the same things, lived the same lifes. Our opinions shape us and put colour into what would otherwise be a grey life.
j4bberw0ck
07-Sep-07, 20:16
There are some sad and pathetic ramblings in this thread - as there were in the other interminable load of drivel in the last McCann thread. What problem do some of you people have with the words "accused" and "charged"?
Just putting this all into a context even some of the more gullible will understand, when did any one of you last watch a CSI, or a "Prime Suspect", or a "Waking the Dead" or an "Inspector Frost" where a suspect WASN'T accused of the crime? Good ole Trevor Eve getting right in their face and bawling at them to confess......... Frosty with his moustache bristling with righteous indignation........ and I bet you don't bat an eyelid, do you? (Except maybe to think "Hah! It's not you then.")
So, some Portuguese copper gets in her face and says "We know you did it. Why not tell us?"
So Kate McCann's not been charged, just asked the awkward questions the police wanted to ask her and for which they gave her the right to silence. Do try to get a grip....
Has the blood in the hire car been identified as Madeleine's?:confused It's real hard to keep up with the facts as the media keep mixing speculation with the facts.
Camel Spider
07-Sep-07, 22:38
Has the blood in the hire car been identified as Madeleine's?:confused It's real hard to keep up with the facts as the media keep mixing speculation with the facts.
Apparently so, and it was found 25 days after Maddie vanished.
Link to CNN story ..
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html)
Apparently so, and it was found 25 days after Maddie vanished.
Link to CNN story ..
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/09/07/madeleine.mccann/index.html)
So it is reasonable that the Portuguese police are justified to suspect that Kate McCann had some involvement in Madeleine's death/disappearance in the light this evidence?:confused
If they first hired the car 25 days later yeah how could blood be found as dead bodies don't actually bleed, and where on earth could they have kept the body for that time where it would not be horrendously decomposed. This doesn't add up for me at all? :confused
Dead bodies don't bleed but a dead body will drip with blood if badly injured.
SandTiger
07-Sep-07, 23:11
Has the blood in the hire car been identified as Madeleine's?:confused ...
Only by the 'family representatives', so it would appear:
Another family representative said officers believed that traces of Madeleine's blood were in the McCanns' car, hired 25 days after she vanished.
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6983604.stm]
The police seem to remain silent on the matter, which whilst may be frustrating to some can only be right given there role as gatherers of evidence?
Presumably the Forensic Science Services are relying on low copy DNA (DNA LCN) findings?
[www.forensic.gov.uk/forensic_t/inside/news/documents/DNA_Low_Copy_Number_000.doc]
But DNA LCN is open to apparent contamination:
"These low-copy techniques are very useful in cases of burglary and robbery, where you might only find a single smudged latent fingerprint or a bit of hair," Kobilinsky says. "You might turn up some good investigative leads. But the flip side of this is that contamination can ruin everything. For example, if even a few cells slough off the investigator's hair or skin and gets into the sample, it's contaminated. Or if some DNA-containing evidence was already present at the crime scene prior to the criminal event, you could generate an irrelevant genetic profile. Even if you get 'successful' typing results, you may not always be able to interpret them properly."
[http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/folio/spring2005/bloodwork.htm]
So without knowing the quality of the DNA evidence it is really impossible to access its probative strength even if it did originate from Madaline. It may be a major breakthrough and then again it may not.
Margaret M.
07-Sep-07, 23:12
why oh why do people make up things that others are meant to have said?????
Calm down, Celtchicky, the "you" I referred to in my post was a general "you". I was merely adding on to your comment about reserving judgement. It was not directed to you.
Dead bodies don't bleed but a dead body will drip with blood if badly injured.
yes but it was 25 days after her disappearance that they first hired the car so either she was not dead immediately and they hid her somewhere or it is just completely wrong. Surely a 25 day old corpe does not bleed does it? I don't know much about this which is why I ask.
There are some sad and pathetic ramblings in this thread - as there were in the other interminable load of drivel in the last McCann thread. What problem do some of you people have with the words "accused" and "charged"?
Just putting this all into a context even some of the more gullible will understand, when did any one of you last watch a CSI, or a "Prime Suspect", or a "Waking the Dead" or an "Inspector Frost" where a suspect WASN'T accused of the crime? Good ole Trevor Eve getting right in their face and bawling at them to confess......... Frosty with his moustache bristling with righteous indignation........ and I bet you don't bat an eyelid, do you? (Except maybe to think "Hah! It's not you then.")
So, some Portuguese copper gets in her face and says "We know you did it. Why not tell us?"
So Kate McCann's not been charged, just asked the awkward questions the police wanted to ask her and for which they gave her the right to silence. Do try to get a grip....It's not often that I post in support of w0cky but I am for once in total agreement with him here. I'm surprised no-one's suggested that the McCanns should be brought up til Week and tarred and feathered outside 'spoons tomorrow afternoon.
Did I really agree with owld w0cky? I think I shall have to go for a very long lie down and an even longer glass of chardonnay from the fridge. :eek: and double :eek:
I am not making any assumptions, even the assumption that Madeleine was murdered on the day she went missing.
Corgiman,...I am no forensics expert either.
Why don't we do the deeply unpopular,..and wait and see?;)
Karia
SandTiger
07-Sep-07, 23:23
If they first hired the car 25 days later yeah how could blood be found as dead bodies don't actually bleed, and where on earth could they have kept the body for that time where it would not be horrendously decomposed. This doesn't add up for me at all? :confused
Assuming it is blood, then an injured body can still deposit dried blood during tranfer when it comes into contact with other objects. Along with hair, syliva etc... etc...
Decomposition is irrelavent, storage is probably a more tricky issue for tourists abroad.
yup waiting and seeing is far easier I am lost with this case and the only news I see on it is snippets online because I normally try to avoid it now as it has more arms and legs than a hundred men and women :confused
I'm often amazed by the expertise of the org SandTiger. We really could rule the world you know. :)
No, I'm not being facetious, I'm impressed.
Has there been an official announcement from either the Portuguese Police or the Lab doing the DNA tests in England giving details about any of the blood samples including who they belong to or where they were found?
Most of the media coverage today has revolved around pure guesswork and comments by the McCanns' friends and family and information leaked by Mrs. McCann via relatives.
The Police have confirmed that they now have a second Official Suspect but there is nothing to say from that statement that Mrs. McCann has not had herself declared as such, which she is perfectly entitled to do.
As I understand what has been said about Portuguese law a witness has no choice but to answer any questions put to them. Once they become an Official Suspect then they have the right to have a lawyer present and can also refuse to answer any questions they do not wish to answer.
It seems to me, under the current circumstances, the moment I had set foot in the Police Station yesterday I would have made damned sure that I was declared an Official Suspect if only to ensure I had the benefit of a local lawyer for advice.
SandTiger
07-Sep-07, 23:42
I'm often amazed by the expertise of the org SandTiger. We really could rule the world you know. :)
No, I'm not being facetious, I'm impressed.
Why thank you :lol:
both parents are now formal suspects
i have a really bad feeling about this
i dont like the way your talking about a dead body as its a 4year old girl! i hope her body can be laid to rest
orkneylass
08-Sep-07, 11:12
Has anyone confirmed that the blood is Madeleine's or is it just a trace of blood....in a hire car???? Could be anybody's!
exactly it hasnt been confirmed!
this Whole Thing Is Getting To Be Like A Bad Game Of Chinese Whispers And It Isnt Up To Us Or The Papers To Find 1 Or Both Of Them Guilty Of This Horriable Crime. whatever Has Happened To This Little Girl I Just Wish They Could Find Her So That She Can Be Laid To Rest If The Unthinkable Has Happened.
Lolabelle
08-Sep-07, 12:16
this Whole Thing Is Getting To Be Like A Bad Game Of Chinese Whispers And It Isnt Up To Us Or The Papers To Find 1 Or Both Of Them Guilty Of This Horriable Crime. whatever Has Happened To This Little Girl I Just Wish They Could Find Her So That She Can Be Laid To Rest If The Unthinkable Has Happened.
Sorry to go off topic here, but I have to ask this; balto why does every word have a capital to start? Doesn't that take a long time to do? Why bother, does it have some special meaning that I am not privy to???
PS, I quite agree with what you have said by the way! :Razz
Has anyone confirmed that the blood is Madeleine's or is it just a trace of blood....in a hire car???? Could be anybody's!
I don't know, please refer to my previous question above and the answer that was given.
These DNA tests only give a probability of someone else matching a person's DNA profile. Please refer to this thread (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?t=28262&highlight=probability+evidence) where 14 or 27% of orgers would convict even if the DNA had a probability of matching the victim to the offender in less than 1 in ten. Scary....
What scares me about this is that the Portuguese police may be getting desperate just to wrap this case up because right from the start they handled it badly, apparently not having the experience of dealing with such things that our police do. I suppose they did not want to ask for help at an early stage and by the time they did it was too late.
The apartment was re-let before it was thoroughly checked for forensic evidence. What on earth is the use of taking dogs in at this late stage, even if they have come up with something? Potential witnesses were allowed to leave, possible sightings not followed up. Why has it taken so long to check a car they hired 25 days after the event? Goodness knows how many other holes there have been in this investigation.
For me the worst outcome would be never to know what happened so her parents will always have a shadow of suspicion hanging over them and the whole family will be left wondering whether, if she is alive - is she happy and safe, or is she dead - and how did she die. So many parents whose children have disappeared and are never found have to somehow carry on with their lives wondering, imagining ...
These are my setiments exactly Badger. Also, who hired the car before the McCanns and was it out on hire when the little girl disappeared and who too. Have they followed that up. I think not. :~(
As you have all said because we only get bits of the story it is hard to say - but I don't get it - if they hired the car 25 days after Maddy disappeared then would it not be the first thing the police would think of - find out who had the car during that critical period. Of course maybe they did!
This whole thing is horrible.
SandTiger
08-Sep-07, 18:22
...
i dont like the way your talking about a dead body as its a 4year old girl! i hope her body can be laid to rest
What do you object to, the fact that clinical and objective discussion can sometimes be less than fluffy? Re-read the two lines above that you wrote and see if you can spot a glaring contradiction?
SandTiger
08-Sep-07, 18:46
These are my setiments exactly Badger. Also, who hired the car before the McCanns and was it out on hire when the little girl disappeared and who too. Have they followed that up. I think not. :~(
The worlds eyes are upon the Portuguese police investigation which is no doubt being headed by the local village bobby who has failed to even consider this very basic issue in the evidential chain.
Maybe you can assist the Forensic Science Service also?
I presume as this is a high profile case the Mccanns were also being watched and just when did they move the little girl into the car( as this is what the police believe) without being seen. Also the news states that they did'nt know the area so where was the child hidden to start with and why did'nt the police find her then. I m sorry but i just think they were put on the police suspects list because in their country this effectively shuts the McCanns up.[disgust]
SandTiger
08-Sep-07, 19:25
nanoo
It would strongly appear the police are acting on fresh evidence supplied by the UK based Forensic Science Service which apparently identifies DNA from Madeline recovered at the holiday villa, from a car rented 25 days after the event along with evidence gathered from clothing.
Are you seriously suggesting that is insufficient grounds to treat a person as a formal suspect?
SandTiger
08-Sep-07, 19:33
Has anyone confirmed that the blood is Madeleine's or is it just a trace of blood....in a hire car???? Could be anybody's!
It's hardly likely to belong to the family dog is it? Do you honestly think the Portuguese police would effectively arrest the McCanns on the basis of "just a trace of blood....in a hire car"? I think the UK based FSS would have done some thorough DNA comparison first, don't you?
Hi,
The detective leading the investigation, Goncalo Amaral, co-ordinator of polic in Portimao, was charged today with the assault of Leonor Cipriano, whose daughter disappeared in 20004.. only minutes from where Madeleine went missing.
Despite no body ever being found Cipriano and her brother were convicted of murder.
The detective and 5 other men were variously charged with
Torture
Omission of evidence
Falsification of evidence.
Fair gives you the hope of a decent and honest outcome for the McCanns.. does it not!
Karia
This last few days most of the information seems to be as a result of comments made to the media by the McCanns PR woman, their friends and their relatives especially concerning the line of questioning by the police.
To a lesser degree there has been a degree of guesswork by the media and at times it is difficult to tell if a reasonable assumption has been repeated so often that it has become an "established fact".
One thing which has been conveniently forgotten, especially by certain people and sections of the media is how the DNA samples etc. were collected.
There was a loud outcry that the British Police should be involved and they would soon have all the answers. Well the British Police were eventually involved.
They were the ones with the specially trained dogs for tracing the scent of dead bodies.
They were the specialists who found and collected the traces of blood at various locations.
They were the ones who had the various samples tested at a Forensic Laboratory in England.
Now there is an outcry that it is the Portuguese Police who got all that wrong. If the forensic samples have been mishandled or the testing has been botched then the fault lies with the British.
If the DNA samples do indicate that they belong to Madeleine (for the benefit of some who complain about the use of Maddie) then that information originates here in Britain and not in Portugal.
As far as I am aware there has been no official details given about the forensic samples and what is being reported is that which the Media have reason to believe are the facts accompanied by a lot of wishful thinking. .
SandTiger
08-Sep-07, 19:49
...
Fair gives you the hope of a decent and honest outcome for the McCanns.. does it not!
Karia
Since Goncalo Amaral is only charged then he remains innocent until proven guilty does he not or will that golden thread that runs through every concept of fair justice only apply to the McCann's if they are charged?
Since Goncalo Amaral is only charged then he remains innocent until proven guilty does he not or will that golden thread that runs through every concept of fair justice only apply to the McCann's if they are charged?
Excellent point SandTiger,
I am suitably chastised.
Karia
Wasn't somebody who had already returned to England interviewed about a hire car a few weeks ago?
Sorry to go off topic here, but I have to ask this; balto why does every word have a capital to start? Doesn't that take a long time to do? Why bother, does it have some special meaning that I am not privy to???
PS, I quite agree with what you have said by the way! :Razz
dont know what happened really i didnt to that on purpose honest lol it just happend mayby i preesed something with our realising what i had done
The problem with the local police is everything is too little, too late. As far as I remember the police were called as soon as Madeleine was missed. The apartment and surrounding area should immediately have been isolated as a crime scene - that was the time to gather forensic evidence and if necessary bring in trained dogs. Everyone staying there should have remained until they had been interviewed, borders and airports etc. watched with photos of the child issued. The McCanns should have been issued with one car checked by the police. Why are they now checking a car hired 25 days after the event? Doesn't that seem very odd?
If the apartment had immediately been searched thoroughly and sealed off then there would have been no question of a child's body being removed as the mother could hardly have done it in the time taken to check the children. I'm sorry but in my opinion the investigation has been incompetent from the start.
dont know what happened really i didnt to that on purpose honest lol it just happend mayby i preesed something with our realising what i had done
Hi balto,
Lolabelle was just commenting and perhaps should have recognised your 'newbie' status and allowed you to settle in and find your own chosen style of orging.
She is a lovely person and would not have wanted to upset you.
Keep on posting..large or small..we love 'em all!:)
Karia
DeHaviLand
09-Sep-07, 00:24
It Happens This Way If You Have Caps Lock On
Camel Spider
09-Sep-07, 00:48
Just seen on Sky News that the McCanns are due to leave Portugal this morning.
Apparently their lease was up and they would have had to return anyway, got to admit though I havent heard ANYTHING about them even planning to return before now.
And just as the Portugese Police make them official suspects too.
And yes, I am being cynical.
Aaldtimer
09-Sep-07, 01:06
It Happens This Way If You Have Caps Lock On
No it doesn't! It happens this way IF YOU HAVE CAPS LOCK ON.
:grin:
please guys...line up and apologise to balto right here..right now!
Unless you really want to scare him/her away with a show of bad manners.
I know where ye live,..and I'll tell yer mam an' yer gran............rascals!;)
Karia
I'm just waiting for the accusations that they are now fugitives from Portugese justice.
Lolabelle
09-Sep-07, 10:54
Hi balto,
Lolabelle was just commenting and perhaps should have recognised your 'newbie' status and allowed you to settle in and find your own chosen style of orging.
She is a lovely person and would not have wanted to upset you.
Keep on posting..large or small..we love 'em all!:)
Karia
I wasn't having a go at Balto, or wishing to put her/him off the org, but I wondered why they were putting capitals on each word. That's all.
I meant nothing by it Balto other than asking, I hope you didn't think I was having a go, I actually thought it may have been some new teen thing to do and wanted to know what it meant?????
Thank you for your vote of confidence Karia, I didn't want to upset Balto, but I wouldn't say I'm a nice person, cause I'm not. :evil
According to the press this morning, a british forensic expert says that if the little girls dead body was, (as suspected) transported in the hire car, there should have been large amounts of DNA to be found. He says, a body secretes DNA from every orifice as soon as it starts to decompose. Also he would expect the smell of death in the childs room, the parents clothes and in their car because they are doctors who work in a hospital environment and death is in the air all the time, therefore it is on them too. This is not enough for you or me to smell but to a specially trained sniffer dog it definately is. Oh, and it's over two weeks ago i heard on the news the McCanns were planning coming home because their lease was due to run out and as they had to come home sometime that would be the appropriate time to do so.
Just seen on Sky News that the McCanns are due to leave Portugal this morning.
Apparently their lease was up and they would have had to return anyway, got to admit though I havent heard ANYTHING about them even planning to return before now.
And just as the Portugese Police make them official suspects too.
And yes, I am being cynical.
You are obviously very selective in what news you read or turning a blind eye through your cynisism. The McCanns decide about two weeks ago to return thuis very day and their flights had apprently been booked about a week ago. So there goes your apparent little running away theory!!
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 14:28
It makes perfect sense for them to return to a country where the media and Government condone child neglect. It's unbelievable the VIP treatment this couple are receiving. :roll:
anneoctober
09-Sep-07, 14:44
It makes perfect sense for them to return to a country where the media and Government condone child neglect. It's unbelievable the VIP treatment this couple are receiving. :roll:
I don't see where the VIP treatment comes in Connie. Just because we only heard in the early hours of the morning that Kate & Gerry were coming home with their twins, does n't mean arrangements were n't already in place. In fact if they had n't thought through plans to return home, what would everyone be saying then? I myself said on a previous thread that they have to realise at some point that they have to return to a normal life for the sake of the bairns. It in no way implies that they've forgotten Maddy or have anything to hide. :(
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 14:50
I don't see where the VIP treatment comes in Connie. Just because we only heard in the early hours of the morning that Kate & Gerry were coming home with their twins, does n't mean arrangements were n't already in place. In fact if they had n't thought through plans to return home, what would everyone be saying then? I myself said on a previous thread that they have to realise at some point that they have to return to a normal life for the sake of the bairns. It in no way implies that they've forgotten Maddy or have anything to hide. :(
Police pushed back hundreds of journalists camped outside the McCanns' vacation home, allowing the couple and their 2-year-old twins to leave for the airport. Less than an hour later, the car pulled into the airport's VIP entrance.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6907980,00.html
i honestly dont know what i believe about the mcanns, i hope they have nothing to do with the disaperance of maddy obviously, i feel that the VIP entrance would have been used to protect their other two children who are being photographed alot just now - they will be confused when they went on holiday they had a sister, they have come home without one:~(
[quote=Lolabelle;269616]I wasn't having a go at Balto, or wishing to put her/him off the org, but I wondered why they were putting capitals on each word. That's all.
I meant nothing by it Balto other than asking, I hope you didn't think I was having a go, I actually thought it may have been some new teen thing to do and wanted to know what it meant?????
Thank you for your vote of confidence Karia, I didn't want to upset Balto, but I wouldn't say I'm a nice person, cause I'm not. :evil[/quote hi lolabelle it doesnt matter really honest i am not a sensitive kind of girl, with 3 kids running buttons get pressed easily on the keyboard not that i am saying it wasnt me it most likely was
anneoctober
09-Sep-07, 17:56
Police pushed back hundreds of journalists camped outside the McCanns' vacation home, allowing the couple and their 2-year-old twins to leave for the airport. Less than an hour later, the car pulled into the airport's VIP entrance.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6907980,00.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6907980,00.html)
Connie all that report says is that the McCanns were driven up to the VIP section. They 've got two bairns there with them and I for one think that , that was a sensible thing to do . Flashing bulbs, reporters screaming for comments and pictures, pushing and shoving, you know how the press treat people in such dramatic situations. I would n't want my bairns subjected to that, and I don't think you would either. :(
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 18:11
Connie all that report says is that the McCanns were driven up to the VIP section. They 've got two bairns there with them and I for one think that , that was a sensible thing to do . Flashing bulbs, reporters screaming for comments and pictures, pushing and shoving, you know how the press treat people in such dramatic situations. I would n't want my bairns subjected to that, and I don't think you would either. :(
no I wouldn't want mine subjected to all that carry on either but the Macanns didn't mind all the press when they were using it to their advantage, in fact they couldn't get enough of it.
no I wouldn't want mine subjected to all that carry on either but the Macanns didn't mind all the press when they were using it to their advantage, in fact they couldn't get enough of it.
I don't reckon the Mccanns would have had any say in the matter, it would have been a police decision as to how their departure was conducted.
Karia
no I wouldn't want mine subjected to all that carry on either but the Macanns didn't mind all the press when they were using it to their advantage, in fact they couldn't get enough of it.
That's a crap thing to say............
If they had nothing to do with their daughter's disappearence, then their use of all measures to get her back can only be applauded................
There must be lots of parents of missing children in the 60s thru 90s who wish the internet and worldwide media coverage was around when they suffered their loss.................. Would Brady and Hindley, Fred West et all have gone on for so long today?
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 18:57
If they had nothing to do with their daughter's disappearence, then their use of all measures to get her back can only be applauded................
They did have something to do with her disappearance though, they turned down a babysitting service and chose to leave 3 kids under the age of 4 in an unlocked appartment next to a main road while they went out with friends. :confused
orkneylass
09-Sep-07, 19:00
Connie - did you never make a mistake in your life? And if you did, maybe just the once, did you end up paying a price like that. Show a little humility and humanity please!
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 19:02
Connie - did you never make a mistake in your life? And if you did, maybe just the once, did you end up paying a price like that. Show a little humility and humanity please!Hmm leaving your kids alone for the night will you go out is not a mistake.[disgust]
They did have something to do with her disappearance though, they turned down a babysitting service and chose to leave 3 kids under the age of 4 in an unlocked appartment next to a main road while they went out with friends. :confused
You're right - they deserved to lose their daughter, and their daughter deserved whatever happened.
Were you thrown out of the Gestapo for being too radical????
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 19:05
You're right - they deserved to lose their daughter, and their daughter deserved whatever happened.
Were you thrown out of the Gestapo for being too radical????Oh darn, I wasn't quick enough to quote you before you changed your mind lol. :lol::lol: that's no my words but yours.
They did have something to do with her disappearance though, they turned down a babysitting service and chose to leave 3 kids under the age of 4 in an unlocked appartment next to a main road while they went out with friends. :confused
Connie, no offence ,but we have established that, what new wisdom are you bringing to the debate?
That people who have suffered child abduction and their small offspring not be afforded the right to safe passage?:confused
Karia
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 19:13
Connie, no offence ,but we have established that, what new wisdom are you bringing to the debate?
That people who have suffered child abduction and their small offspring not be afforded the right to safe passage?:confused
KariaI know they are guilty of neglect. Do you know there was an abduction? I'd say you are the one who is posting conjecture and supposition, not me.
orkneylass
09-Sep-07, 19:16
Connie - did you never make a mistake in your life? And if you did, maybe just the once, did you end up paying a price like that. Show a little humility and humanity please!
Still waiting for a response Connie - your comments are truly unkind. If you think you are the perfect, caring, loving mother think on this - Kate has a mother too.
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 19:20
Still waiting for a response Connie - your comments are truly unkind. If you think you are the perfect, caring, loving mother think on this - Kate has a mother too.
Open you eyes then, I did respond, I said leaving 3 kids alone is not a mistake.
Oh darn, I wasn't quick enough to quote you before you changed your mind lol. :lol::lol: that's no my words but yours.
I originally posed the question: "are you mental?"
but......getting back on track:
Even if the (to me, anyway) unthinkable happens to be true (that Mr & Mrs MCann are implicated) - your comments are heartless in the extreme.
I know they are guilty of neglect. Do you know there was an abduction? I'd say you are the one who is posting conjecture and supposition, not me.
I am posting what is accepted evidence at this time..even by the Portugese Police, and all I am suggesting is that we wait and see what transpires, since, after all, none of us was there.
Karia
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-07, 19:23
Hmm leaving your kids alone for the night will you go out is not a mistake.[disgust]
With your ability deliberately to simplify things down to the point of absurdity, you should have been a politician. You're inferring too much; it wasn't "the night" though I grant you it sounds better for your non-argument than "a couple of hours while we're 100 metres away in line of sight checking on them every half hour".
And making a mistake, as you put it, is something everyone does. Even, no doubt, Connie B. Do you believe the daughter or the parents deserve what they're suffering / did suffer, because they weren't blameless? Perhaps you should just be thankful that your mistakes haven't met with tragic results.
I'm with Mareng. You're too radical for the Gestapo. Don't ever make a mistake, or get old or ill, if Connie's about!
Open you eyes then, I did respond, I said leaving 3 kids alone is not a mistake.
i totally agree with you connieb how could anyone that is in charge of 3 kids under the age of 4 go out and leave them on their own in a holiday resort in a foreign country, i have a 1 year old and i wont even leave him outside the shops in thurso as you just never know who is on the go, that in itself is neglect, and before anyone says anything i am not saying the mother and father deserve this nobody does but it was a shelfish thing they did to start with
anneoctober
09-Sep-07, 19:27
no I wouldn't want mine subjected to all that carry on either but the Macanns didn't mind all the press when they were using it to their advantage, in fact they couldn't get enough of it.
Connie, I don't get the impression that the McCanns are "using" the press to their advantage. Good for them, to have had the courage to get as far as they have . They did n't leave the villa in a blacked out car or hidden under blankets. They walked out normally, they did nt appear to avoid eye contact with the crowd outside. The kids were n't subjected to the crowds of press, they were put in the car at the side of the villa.
If they had paraded the bairns in front of Press & tv cameras for the duration of their stay in Portugal, I could maybe understand your comments. Surely to play up the "doting parents " angle - IF they were guilty would have been a better strategy.
(apologies for any spelling mistakes.)
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-07, 19:31
i totally agree with you connieb how could anyone that is in charge of 3 kids under the age of 4 go out and leave them on their own in a holiday resort in a foreign country,
Er, balto, I'm afraid you've missed the bit about connie now saying leaving the kids wasn't a mistake! :lol:
Oh, is that a bullethole in your foot?
it was a shelfish thing they did to start with
No wonder they ended up being treated like a Prawn in some media game of chess ;o)
No wonder they ended up being treated like a Prawn in some media game of chess ;o)
Scorrie!;)
An unworthy comment, .. but a nice bit of 'light relief':D
Naughty step!!!
Karia
How do some people manage to post in big, bold text???
I feel that (no matter how compelling my argument is).......... my post is not as "IN YER FACE" as those people that have a better knowledge of 'puter-stuff.
Please help me attain "importance"
(err - that wasn't "impotence" :( )
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 19:40
Er, balto, I'm afraid you've missed the bit about connie now saying leaving the kids wasn't a mistake! :lol:
Oh, is that a bullethole in your foot?
No it's not a mistake, it was a conscious decision to leave those kids on their own.
No it's not a mistake, it was a conscious decision to leave those kids on their own.
Good to know that your area is protected by "Neighbourhood Witch".
Ask yourself this:
If the parents involved were say - your son and daughter-in-law........... would you now be throwing brickbats?
You are in serious risk of setting yourself up for condemnation for whatever misshaps may befall you in the future, in what is - a small community (with internet access).
Camel Spider
09-Sep-07, 19:47
You are obviously very selective in what news you read or turning a blind eye through your cynisism. The McCanns decide about two weeks ago to return thuis very day and their flights had apprently been booked about a week ago. So there goes your apparent little running away theory!!
I am not selective or turning a blind eye, like I said in my post I didnt hear anything about it thats all. As their every move seems to be reported does anyone remember them stating their desire to return two weeks ago ??, I just found the timing a bit too convienent. I didnt post a "theory" I was just cynical about the timing (as I openly said) as I have not personally read or seen anything about their future plans. There is a lot about this case that doesnt make sense or just plain add up to me.
Having done a couple of courses along the line of human behaviour the body language at certain times has been not what would be expected. I phoned a friend who had done the same course and we came to the same conclusion.
The Mcanns would not be in the situation they are in today if they had ensured proper care for their kids, leaving them unattended is not a mistake, spilling a tin of beans is a mistake, that was a deliberate calculated act that left their children in a vulnerable position that has ended in a tragic outcome. Was it their fault .. Yes it was.
I dont know if they are guilty or innocent, I am suscpicious of a few things that just dont seem to add up to me.
Open you eyes then, I did respond, I said leaving 3 kids alone is not a mistake.
You are 100% correct because for them to claim the legal definition of a mistake as a defence to criminal charges then they have to prove that they acted in ignorance to the consequences of leaving their children alone in a busy foreign holiday resort. I feel that won't wash with them being intelligent doctors. They didn't make a mistake, they acted recklessly with their children's safety.
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-07, 19:50
No it's not a mistake, it was a conscious decision to leave those kids on their own.
So if it wasn't a mistake.......... I'm lost. You mean they're guilty of murder or kidnap, or perhaps being an accessory to the fact, because they chose to leave the children alone? Or do you mean they were wrong to do it, and so you derive some perverse satisfaction from their suffering? Or are you in fact a Blairite, having managed to find a Third Way? :lol:
i dont recall saying it was a mistake or that connieb said it was a mistake . it was just for their own selfish needs that they left those poor kids on their own why couldnt they have gone 2 a family friendly resturant with their 3 kids. if that was their intention why couldnt they have left the kids in england and had a holiday on their own.
I am not selective or turning a blind eye, like I said in my post I didnt hear anything about it thats all. As their every move seems to be reported does anyone remember them stating their desire to return two weeks ago ??, I just found the timing a bit too convienent. I didnt post a "theory" I was just cynical about the timing (as I openly said) as I have not personally read or seen anything about their future plans. There is a lot about this case that doesnt make sense or just plain add up to me.
Having done a couple of courses along the line of human behaviour the body language at certain times has been not what would be expected. I phoned a friend who had done the same course and we came to the same conclusion.
The Mcanns would not be in the situation they are in today if they had ensured proper care for their kids, leaving them unattended is not a mistake, spilling a tin of beans is a mistake, that was a deliberate calculated act that left their children in a vulnerable position that has ended in a tragic outcome. Was it their fault .. Yes it was.
I dont know if they are guilty or innocent, I am suscpicious of a few things that just dont seem to add up to me.
Oh no - you've "done a course"..............
How many people's (who have had a child abducted) body language have you actually studied?
I'm guessing it is somewhere between 0 and .................. 0
(Crikey - my signature could be meant just for you............)
To all those that condemn the McCanns (of neglect or similar) - I say the same:
"You are in serious risk of setting yourself up for condemnation for whatever misshaps may befall you in the future, in what is - a small community (with internet access)."
Think hard..................
Billy Boy
09-Sep-07, 19:58
Ask yourself this:
If the parents involved were say - your son and daughter-in-law........... would you now be throwing brickbats?
I know for a fact if it were my relatives i would treat them with the contempt they would deserve, I personally cant believe how anybody could leave their kids unattended in a holiday resort or anywhere else for that matter.
Its bad enough when people leave their kids unattended in cars while they go shopping [disgust]
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 20:02
To all those that condemn the McCanns (of neglect or similar) - I say the same:
"You are in serious risk of setting yourself up for condemnation for whatever misshaps may befall you in the future, in what is - a small community (with internet access)."
Think hard..................I suppose the same thing could be said for all the people who condone child neglect.
I know for a fact if it were my relatives i would treat them with the contempt they would deserve, I personally cant believe how anybody could leave their kids unattended in a holiday resort or anywhere else for that matter.
Its bad enough when people leave their kids unattended in cars while they go shopping [disgust]
No - you'd be supportive.................
(and I say that without even knowing you)
To all those that condemn the McCanns (of neglect or similar) - I say the same:
"You are in serious risk of setting yourself up for condemnation for whatever misshaps may befall you in the future, in what is - a small community (with internet access)."
Think hard..................
Thank you for stifling debate on the org.
Billy Boy
09-Sep-07, 20:04
[quote=j4bberw0ck;269960]So if it wasn't a mistake.......... I'm lost.
they decided to go out to dinner and they decided to leave their kids, how does that make it a mistake?
you leave your wallet at home by mistake NOT your kids.
They chose to go out and enjoy theirself without their kids and without using the childminding service, So how is it a mistake?
[quote=Camel Spider;2699
Having done a couple of courses along the line of human behaviour the body language at certain times has been not what would be expected. I phoned a friend who had done the same course and we came to the same conclusion.
[/quote]
You did the 'same course' and came to the 'same conclusion'...can you think of any reason why that might be??:roll:
Karia
Billy Boy
09-Sep-07, 20:07
No - you'd be supportive.................
(and I say that without even knowing you)
I can assure you i certainly would not and your right you dont know me, I would put their child first not support them of being damn idiots leaving their kid alone and i certainly wouldnt support anyone who thinks its right to leave a children alone[disgust]
Camel Spider
09-Sep-07, 20:09
[quote=mareng;269963]Oh no - you've "done a course"..............
How many people's (who have had a child abducted) body language have you actually studied?
I'm guessing it is somewhere between 0 and ..................
I did three courses on the subject as part of a militairy course, two of those courses were hosted by a man called John Douglas who is an ex FBI Agent who developed criminal profiling, he was the inspiration for the Jack Crawford character in Silence of the Lambs.
To answer your question the answer is one, a couple of the cases we were presented with involved a parent who had claimed his son had been abducted but had in fact murdered him, and a paedophile who openly admitted to killing a young girl. These police interviews werent very pleasant but the object was to spot specific behavioural patterns in people who are lying or telling the truth. Obviously we are all individuals and details will vary but there are specifics. A good example of someone lying is a lack of eye contact for example. The courses were part of a joint service course, I can pm you the details if you wish.
And I also have a degree in Psychology, what experience are you speaking from ??
How does that foot taste then Mareng ?? .. :roll:
If you want to make personal remarks please feel free to PM me and we can take it from there.
orkneylass
09-Sep-07, 20:14
i can't help wondering whether these poor parents haven't done a whole lot of sanctimonious parents a great favour by giving them a great opportunity to feel superior. What about "error of judgement" rather than mistake? - you know, the kind of thing we have all done and got away with. Bear in mind that they were having dinner with 2 other couples who obviously did not feel that being 100 metres away in plain sight of the apartment and checking every 20 minutes was unreasonable. As it happens, they were all wrong, but hindsight is a great thing.
Enjoy feeling superior, all you people without the slightest bit of empathy and compassion. I try to think about how they are feeling rather than trying to score points as perfect parent of the year.
I suppose the same thing could be said for all the people who condone child neglect.
Keep digging..............................
i can't help wondering whether these poor parents haven't done a whole lot of sanctimonious parents a great favour by giving them a great opportunity to feel superior. What about "error of judgement" rather than mistake? - you know, the kind of thing we have all done and got away with. Bear in mind that they were having dinner with 2 other couples who obviously did not feel that being 100 metres away in plain sight of the apartment and checking every 20 minutes was unreasonable. As it happens, they were all wrong, but hindsight is a great thing.
Enjoy feeling superior, all you people without the slightest bit of empathy and compassion. I try to think about how they are feeling rather than trying to score points as perfect parent of the year.
That about sums it up...........
Billy Boy
09-Sep-07, 20:29
i can't help wondering whether these poor parents haven't done a whole lot of sanctimonious parents a great favour by giving them a great opportunity to feel superior. What about "error of judgement" rather than mistake? - you know, the kind of thing we have all done and got away with. Bear in mind that they were having dinner with 2 other couples who obviously did not feel that being 100 metres away in plain sight of the apartment and checking every 20 minutes was unreasonable. As it happens, they were all wrong, but hindsight is a great thing.
Enjoy feeling superior, all you people without the slightest bit of empathy and compassion. I try to think about how they are feeling rather than trying to score points as perfect parent of the year.
Oh how righteous you are, I do have sympathy for what they are going through and i wouldnt wish it on anyone, but it still doesnt take away from the fact that leaving a child / children on their own is wrong no matter what way you try to dress it up or what excuses you make.
I hope and pray to god that maddy is found safe and well although the chances seem pretty slim, but it seems that she has been forgotten by a lot of people in his thread who are to busy pointing fingers.
Hang on............
I've got Orkneylass down as one of the compassionate ones who has Madeleine in mind,
and.......... Billyboy down as being the complete opposite?
Have I had too much beer tonight?
Oh how righteous you are, I do have sympathy for what they are going through and i wouldnt wish it on anyone, but it still doesnt take away from the fact that leaving a child / children on their own is wrong no matter what way you try to dress it up or what excuses you make.
I hope and pray to god that maddy is found safe and well although the chances seem pretty slim, but it seems that she has been forgotten by a lot of people in his thread who are to busy pointing fingers.
billyboy you are the only one on here talking sense, its like everyone is forgetting the main person in this and thats the little wee girl maddy!
:~(
I must say that I am fed up to the high teeth with sanctimonious people who are accusing folk of being unsympathetic to the McCanns just because they think that the McCanns have been irresponsible. That is a fact but I also feel sympathy for them. Oddly, I dont usually feel much sympathy for suspected child killers.
Billy Boy
09-Sep-07, 20:39
Hang on............
I've got Orkneylass down as one of the compassionate ones who has Madeleine in mind,
and.......... Billyboy down as being the complete opposite?
Have I had too much beer tonight?
wont say what i have you down as lol but there again its plain for all to see[disgust]
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-07, 20:50
Even Billyboy might be able to see that if it were really Madeleine that people were concerned about she might have been mentioned at least as much as the so-called irresponsible McCanns. But the argument starts with people criticising the McCanns and getting holier-than-thou. It finishes when, realising there's nowhere else for them to go, the McCann critics start saying "it's all about Madeleine". Had it been "all about Madeleine" the argument would have taken a different tack. Like not spending time on the alleged mistakes of her parents.
Billy Boy
09-Sep-07, 21:06
I see that would include yourself j4bberw0ck as you havent once mentioned Madeleine until i said " it was all about her".
I still stand by what i say that i firmly believe that the parents were well in the wrong for leaving them, they went out for a meal, so its not like they were going to be 5 or 10 minutes which is still wrong they were gone a lot longer.
I am a parent and i would never do what they did and even if i was to be stupid enought to leave them i would expect to be charged with neglect at the very least.
Yes i do have sympathy for what they are going through but i believe it has been brought on by themselves and i would never wish anyone to suffer that pain
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-07, 21:30
I see that would include yourself j4bberw0ck as you havent once mentioned Madeleine until i said " it was all about her".
Now, now, Billy Boy, let's not overreach ourselves. If you actually read my posts on this topic you'll see that my argument from the first has been about the judgemental, holier-than-thou sellf-proclaimed perfect parents who've pinioned the McCanns.
I have no argument to prove. You and your ilk most certainly do. So settle down at the back and do try to keep up.
Billy Boy
09-Sep-07, 21:39
Now, now, Billy Boy, let's not overreach ourselves. If you actually read my posts on this topic you'll see that my argument from the first has been about the judgemental, holier-than-thou sellf-proclaimed perfect parents who've pinioned the McCanns.
I have no argument to prove. You and your ilk most certainly do. So settle down at the back and do try to keep up.
why dont you go and grow up and stop being so pompous, all thats wrong with you and your ilk is that you dont like others having a different opinion to you and its yourself who has the holier-than-thou attitude.
You may think it is alright to leave your kids alone I DONT as would any self respecting parent.
Maybe you should be an advisor to the McCanns as you seem to be of the opinion that you know it all:Razz
I must say that I am fed up to the high teeth with sanctimonious people who are accusing folk of being unsympathetic to the McCanns just because they think that the McCanns have been irresponsible.
So - now you are stiffling debate????.......................
Mmmm.......
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-07, 21:52
OK, we touched a nerve. I've been called pompous once before today, so I must have worked through a few people's perilously thin armour. I stand by what I said before.
I've often wondered if accusations of pomposity aren't the last refuge of those with without a leg to stand on, and with nothing to say :lol: (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=269703#post269703)
I think Orkneylass summed it up (for me, at least) in post #139
"i can't help wondering whether these poor parents haven't done a whole lot of sanctimonious parents a great favour by giving them a great opportunity to feel superior. What about "error of judgement" rather than mistake? - you know, the kind of thing we have all done and got away with. Bear in mind that they were having dinner with 2 other couples who obviously did not feel that being 100 metres away in plain sight of the apartment and checking every 20 minutes was unreasonable. As it happens, they were all wrong, but hindsight is a great thing.
Enjoy feeling superior, all you people without the slightest bit of empathy and compassion. I try to think about how they are feeling rather than trying to score points as perfect parent of the year."
Apologies to Rheghead, who is apparently - sick of reading this view (but can't help himself from doing so.............)
Billy Boy
09-Sep-07, 22:01
I called you pompous because that is how your posts are you obviously think you are superiour to others when in reality you are nothing more than a self opinioned man who seems to think he is always in the right.
You have your opinions, I have mine, difference being i am of the opinion that my kids mean more to me that a night out on the town, you obviously dont and it will take a lot more than your pomous arrogant manner to chink my armour lol :Razz
Just out of curiosity is your opinion on this subject formed as a parent?????
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-07, 22:07
So you haven't read - or at best, you haven't understood - what I wrote? That explains something, anyway......... My status as parent is irrelevant to my argument.
Though if it pleases you, yes, I am a parent.
Billy Boy
09-Sep-07, 22:15
from where i am standing you are missing the point.
I am saying as a parent i would not leave my kids alone, are you saying that you would leave your kids?
I also asked earlier in a post if the McCanns were to be found guilty would you still say they did nothing more than make a mistake a question you chose not to answer?:confused
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-07, 22:42
OK, OK, I confess:
I confess I have left my children to play without me being there
I confess I've left my children to entertain themselves in controlled circumstances while I popped out for half an hour - age 4 onwards
I confess that I've left them sleeping while I (and their exquisite mother) had some time to ourselves and we kept an eye on them at intervals
I confess there were times when I didn't have them in my sight at all times
I confess that there have been occasions when I left my younger son asleep alone in the house while I went out to pick his mother up from wine-drinking competitions in town with her pals (though he knew in advance I would be out for 30 minutes and wasn't the slightest bit fazed by it).
Oh dearie me. I'm so bad. I bet no one else in the history of the world ever did such a thing. Oh lawdie. Mea culpa.
The only thing the McCanns did wrong was to be unlucky. Even sanctimonious, smug, holier-than-thou people can be unlucky, BillyBoy.
from where i am standing you are missing the point.
I am saying as a parent i would not leave my kids alone, are you saying that you would leave your kids?
I also asked earlier in a post if the McCanns were to be found guilty would you still say they did nothing more than make a mistake a question you chose not to answer?:confused
Found guilty of what?
Karia
j4bberw0ck
09-Sep-07, 22:57
I confess I've left my children to entertain themselves in controlled circumstances while I popped out for half an hour - age 4 onwards
Now I've got a terrier wrapped round my left leg doing what only a terrier can do, and Mrs J beating my ears because she says it sounds as though I did all those things while the kids were four. "You'll get crucified", she said.
Go for it!
connieb19
09-Sep-07, 23:04
Now I've got a terrier wrapped round my left leg doing what only a terrier can do, and Mrs J beating my ears because she says it sounds as though I did all those things while the kids were four. "You'll get crucified", she said.
Go for it!Whatever turns you on. :roll:
So - now you are stiffling debate????.......................
Mmmm.......
Errr.......whenever has sanctimony made even a small contibution to a debate? Please reassess your post.
Children and Young Persons Act 1933
Sect1 (1) If any person who has attained the age of sixteen years and has responsibility for any child or young person under that age, wilfully assaults, ill-treats, neglects, abandons or exposes him, or causes or procures him to be assaulted, ill-treated, neglected, abandoned, or exposed, in a manner likely to cause him unnecessary suffering or injury to health (including injury to or loss of sight, or hearing, or limb, or organ of the body, and any mental derangement), that person shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and shall be liable— It then lists the punishments for such offences. (he bold italics are mine for clarification.)
The above is what the Law says on the subject. Is anybody going to say that young Madeleine was not wilfully abandoned (which includes intentionally being left alone for a short period of time) or that she did not suffer “unnecessary suffering or injury to health”?
There is no law that determines the minimum age that a child can be left alone. However, there is a law about neglecting children and you are legally responsible for the safety of your child.
Babies and young children should never be left on their own, however tempting it may seem when a child is asleep and you only plan to be out for a while.
The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) gives the following advice about leaving children alone:
Never leave babies or young children home alone (whether sleeping or awake), not even for a few minutes.
Until the age of about 13 most children are not mature enough to cope with an emergency and should not be left alone for more than a very short time.
If children do have to be alone, give them clear instructions about what to do if there is a problem. Leave a list of people you trust who they can go to or telephone for help, such as a neighbour or close relative. And remember to put all obvious dangers out of reach before you go (eg. medicines, chemicals, matches or sharp objects). http://www.youthinformation.com/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=90131
One thing I am grateful for are the useful tips which have been given in the thread.
Next time I am driving through town daydreaming away and happen to run over a small child I will be happy in the knowledge that, because everybody has a lapse of attention at some time or other, nothing should happen to me. After all, I was just the unlucky one who did it when there was a small child in front of me.
Just because “everybody does it” doesn’t make it right. Decades ago people had the same casual attitude that people caught Drink Driving were just unfortunate they were the ones caught, "because “everybody did it”!
People who openly stated Drink Driving was wrong were usually ridiculed as being pompous and arrogant and even accused of thinking themselves perfect and superior.
Anybody want to claim that those who spoke out against Drink Drivers were guilty of all those attitudes?
Margaret M.
10-Sep-07, 03:40
Having done a couple of courses along the line of human behaviour the body language at certain times has been not what would be expected. I phoned a friend who had done the same course and we came to the same conclusion.
There has been a parade of body language experts on TV here and the consensus is that there is nothing suspicious about the McCann's body language.
Hats off to anyone here who has never made an error in judgement.
Camel Spider
10-Sep-07, 04:50
There has been a parade of body language experts on TV here and the consensus is that there is nothing suspicious about the McCann's body language.
Hats off to anyone here who has never made an error in judgement.
Fair comment Margaret, I just made a point based on the information I was taught and the experience I have had, I am not saying I must be right but for two people to notice the same thing at the same time and come to the same conclusion strikes me as a bit more than coincidence. I would recommend people do their own research and come to their own conclusions, if for no other reason that human behaviour is an interesting subject, once you learn a few tricks on reading people job interviews are not quite so daunting.
But I think that this thread is just going round in circles now.
Following on from Jaw's post earlier it looks like Leicester social service are going to be reviewing the case to see if the McCanns should be charged.
Billy Boy
10-Sep-07, 15:31
OK, OK, I confess:
I confess I have left my children to play without me being there
I confess I've left my children to entertain themselves in controlled circumstances while I popped out for half an hour - age 4 onwards
I confess that I've left them sleeping while I (and their exquisite mother) had some time to ourselves and we kept an eye on them at intervals
I confess there were times when I didn't have them in my sight at all times
I confess that there have been occasions when I left my younger son asleep alone in the house while I went out to pick his mother up from wine-drinking competitions in town with her pals (though he knew in advance I would be out for 30 minutes and wasn't the slightest bit fazed by it).
Oh dearie me. I'm so bad. I bet no one else in the history of the world ever did such a thing. Oh lawdie. Mea culpa.
The only thing the McCanns did wrong was to be unlucky. Even sanctimonious, smug, holier-than-thou people can be unlucky, BillyBoy.
Aw well seen as you are not mature enough to understand the seriousness of them leaving their children unattended while they went out for the night, there is very little point in trying to say anything to you and as for sanctimonious, smug,holier-than-thou people if the cap fits lol[disgust]
I am far from perfect but where my children are concerned i would do whatever it takes to protect them if that makes me a bad parent in your eyes Tough :Razz
Billy Boy
10-Sep-07, 15:38
Found guilty of what?
Karia
Do you not listen to the news?
They have been questioned over their daughters dissapearance.
( What if they are found to be guilty of that,)
We already know they are guilty of neglect as Jaws has put in his post it is illegal to leave a child under the age of 16 unattended, but most parents know that anyway are you saying that if you broke the law you would expect to get away with it?[disgust]
Billy Boy :Razz
Sure Billy Boy, I listen to the news and read the press, what's more I am able to interpret what I hear and read.
I just wondered which of the McCanns 'crimes' you alluded to..
...Child Neglect
...manslaughter
...murder
...transporting a body in a hire car
....hiding..or disposing of both
...dodgy body language
...not leaving Portugal early enough and thus 'neglecting' their other kids
...staying in Portugal too long and '' '' '' '' '' '' ditto
...hiring a hit man so they could raid Madeleine's piggy bank.
I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about what you mean, I prefer to deal with evidence.
Karia
Billy Boy
10-Sep-07, 17:36
karia
your posts are just as immature as some others in this thread but hey if that keeps you happy
Billy Boy :Razz
karia
your posts are just as immature as some others in this thread but hey if that keeps you happy
Billy Boy :Razz
How can I possibly respond to such an eloquent and worthy response.
I seek clarity from you, you sling mud at me.
Karia
Billy Boy
10-Sep-07, 17:49
Sure Billy Boy, I listen to the news and read the press, what's more I am able to interpret what I hear and read.
I just wondered which of the McCanns 'crimes' you alluded to..
...Child Neglect
...manslaughter
...murder
...transporting a body in a hire car
....hiding..or disposing of both
...dodgy body language
...not leaving Portugal early enough and thus 'neglecting' their other kids
...staying in Portugal too long and '' '' '' '' '' '' ditto
...hiring a hit man so they could raid Madeleine's piggy bank.
I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about what you mean, I prefer to deal with evidence.
Karia
How childish a comment is the one about the piggy bank? the mentality of some folk.
As i have said they were being questioned about their daughters dissapearance, would you still think they are in the right if they were found guilty of being aparty to it?
They have already broke the law by neglecting the children in the first place.
I am sure you know all this and are just trying to be smart with your comments but like i said what ever keeps you happy[disgust]
Billy Boy :Razz
rockchick
10-Sep-07, 18:11
Two things strike me about this thread:
1) Were the McCanns negligent in leaving their children unattended while they enjoyed a meal out? oh yes. No doubt about it. Were they CRIMINALLY negligent? Possibly, but that's for a court of law to decide. Doubt that any punishment a court could impose would equal that which has already been imposed upon them.
2) Regarding the blood in the rental car...the facts (albeit as presented by the media) are that blood (presumably Madeleine's) has been found in a vehicle rented by the McCann's 25 days after the child's disappearance. Now, taking into consideration the difficulty of (a) hiding a body for 25 days and (b) transporting said body after being stored (and in a Portugese summer...can't you just SMELL it?) for 25 days without anyone noticing, I think it's probably safe to discount that the McCann's are the ones who used the vehicle to transport the body. So...WHO RENTED THE CAR DURING THE WEEK WHEN MADDY DISAPPEARED???? If *I* were the police, I'd really like to talk to them!
Billy Boy
10-Sep-07, 18:13
This was all said on the radio today Rockchic, they also said that the fluid found in the hire car could of been transferred from a teddy or something similar.
How childish a comment is the one about the piggy bank? the mentality of some folk.
As i have said they were being questioned about their daughters dissapearance, would you still think they are in the right if they were found guilty of being aparty to it?
They have already broke the law by neglecting the children in the first place.
I am sure you know all this and are just trying to be smart with your comments but like i said what ever keeps you happy[disgust]
Billy Boy :Razz
It is called 'IRONY' BB..you might need to look it up!
Whatever you would like to believe one must be charged & proved guilty...on evidence...before being legally guilty.
Far from being smart I am saying that I am not equipped to judge as I do not have the evidence....neither do you.
Karia
rockchick
10-Sep-07, 18:20
I haven't listened to the radio today, so was unaware of any discussion along these lines. But, if the fluid had come from a teddy or something similar, such as a towel to clean up the mess, well, where was THAT stored? Wouldn't the police have checked the apartment pretty thoroughly looking for clues when she first disappeared? A teddy or towel, thrown into a freezer (if there was one) would have been pretty bloody obvious (no pun intended).
So many things about this case just don't add up. I'm sure the media's reporting doesn't help.
Billy Boy
10-Sep-07, 18:28
It is called 'IRONY' BB..you might need to look it up!
Whatever you would like to believe one must be charged & proved guilty...on evidence...before being legally guilty.
Far from being smart I am saying that I am not equipped to judge as I do not have the evidence....neither do you.
Karia
I am not and never have said that i have evidence, what i have said is that leaving your kids alone is wrong and illegal.
I also asked if folk would feel the same if they were to be found guilty of harming their daughter, i didnt say i thought they had i only asked a question but as usual on here it gets all blown out of context by the same old ones[disgust]
Valerie Campbell
11-Sep-07, 10:42
Madeleine McCann is still missing. No body has been found. No one has seen her. Surely the main thrust of the investigation is still to find her, regardless of what the Portugese police believe. They shouldn't stop looking just because they have 3 suspects. There are rumours of more searches but will they go over the same old ground already covered or will they search further afield? I just hope she is found soon. I do however find it very strange that no one has seen her since that fateful night. It doesn't look good but with no body, surely there is some hope left.
Sorry if this has been covered already in the previous 170 odd posts, but isn't there some speculation that the McCann's administered sedatives to the kids, being doctors that would be quite easy, did they get the dose wrong and maybe that's how she died?
Also her parents insist they went to check on the children every half hour or so, the restaurant waiters said they never.
Sorry if this has been covered already in the previous 170 odd posts, but isn't there some speculation that the McCann's administered sedatives to the kids, being doctors that would be quite easy, did they get the dose wrong and maybe that's how she died?
Also her parents insist they went to check on the children every half hour or so, the restaurant waiters said they never.
Mmm, they wouldn't be very good Doctors if they could not give the correct dose.
As you say, it is speculation. We can speculate anything we wish but I see no purpose to it at all. There will be plenty of opportunity to say "I knew it!!",as often as required, AFTER the truth is revealed.
i,ve been trying to keep my nose out of this as i guess it,ll all come out in the wash eventually. BUT, what i cant get my head around is , Are there some medical conditions that they had to sedate their kids. God knows at times when my two were growing up i,ve wished they were sedated , but to actually do it, it doesnt bear thinking about . Why ?? :confused :(
armanisgirl
11-Sep-07, 16:02
I thought it was common practice for parents to be 'suspects' from very early on in an investigation, until they can be conclusively ruled out? Or am I reading too many novels/watching too many programmes? I'm therefore puzzled as to why Jerry and Kate McCann weren't treated as suspects until now, regardless of forensic or otherwise evidence? As for the Portuguese media, GMTV news showed frontpages of reports that the McCanns had murdered their child etc. It seems the parents have been tried very publicly and found guilty, without a real trial, and by a country who (if we are all honest) hasn't conducted a very satisfactory investigation from day one. It would be terrible if Jerry and Kate were found guilty, only for Madeleine to be found in months or years to come, happy and healthy. (or her body to be found and someone else to have committed the unforgivable). That would be awful. I also feel very sorry for the twins, Sean and Amelie, who can only be very confused by their sister not being there, mummy and daddy being frustrated and upset, cameras, police, and god knows who traipsing through their young lives. Lets hope, whatever the outcome, they grow up not remembering this terrible time and with no lasting effect on them.
The latest news from the press seems to be that they have a positive DNA sample from the boot of the hired car good enough to say Maddy's body was definitely in the boot of the car. Now if that is true it is shocking, but hey it could be media speculation again!
connieb19
11-Sep-07, 17:44
Common sense at last!
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22402077-5000117,00.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22402077-5000117,00.html)
Common sense at last!
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22402077-5000117,00.html (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22402077-5000117,00.html)
There is no element of common sense to it, it is simply one person's opinion.
Whatever you think about the McCann's actions, there is no way that what happened to their child was, in some twisted way, justified. This person waffles on self-righteously about "when did four year olds ever get left alone?". The fact is that it happens, probably very regularly. In most cases nothing untoward will happen and, in this sense, the McCanns were simply very unlucky.
I take the view that the McCanns WERE negligent in leaving such young children unattended, for however short a time. I would observe that they were also selfish, in putting their own entertainment first. IF Maddy is found safe and well, I would be of the opinion that the McCanns should face some sort of punishment for their neglect. What form this would take might be difficult to say, as it might be hard to punish the parents without indirectly punishing their children also. However, if Maddy is found to have been killed surely that is sufficient punishment in itself? I think it would take a pretty cruel mind to seek to drive the knife in still further.
As it stands, Maddy's fate is unknown. I believe we have to give the McCanns the benefit of the doubt and accept the fact that they are paying for their mistake, in a big way, every day that this saga continues. Try picturing yourself in the same position and wonder how YOU would feel reading the article quoted above.
Could i point out that on the BBC 1 O'clock news, they interviewed a high up official for the police in Portugal and he says the british press reporting an exact DNA match to Maddie is wrong.They have a match but not an exact match. Also, can i point out that all the childs clothes and her toys have been in the holiday place, the car and the last villa, so it stands to reason her DNA is left in all of these places. Incidentally, the news also stated today that the villa the family just left was cleaned out by cleaners this morning, the police have shown no interest in going in. Maybe in a day or too eh. Missing the boat again.
SandTiger
11-Sep-07, 20:07
I'm just waiting for the accusations that they are now fugitives from Portugese justice.
Well you never know, Kingsley Napley are no lightweight organisation and their chosen solicitor has done a few extradition matters ;)
http://www.kingsleynapley.co.uk/main.asp?page=264
TWhatever you think about the McCann's actions, there is no way that what happened to their child was, in some twisted way, justified. This person waffles on self-righteously about "when did four year olds ever get left alone?". The fact is that it happens, probably very regularly. In most cases nothing untoward will happen and, in this sense, the McCanns were simply very unlucky.
Spot on Scorrie.
Ive heard and read some awful accusations against this couple. I cant allow myself to be infected by the accusations. Ijust dont believe they would have harmed their daughter. They have come across as genuine every time I have seen them and anybody who knows them will vouch for their complete innocence.
Thats good enough for me.
That being the case, I cant imagine what they are going through. I imagine the comments on caithness.org will be a fairly good representative opinion of everywhere. They are not the most popular of couples
That Aussie reporter complains about those of us who may have compassion for the couple, just like a couple of posters on here who have never let up in reminmding us of the misdemanour they commited as parents. I won't feel that way towards them.
Sorry if this has been covered already in the previous 170 odd posts, but isn't there some speculation that the McCann's administered sedatives to the kids, being doctors that would be quite easy, did they get the dose wrong and maybe that's how she died?
Also her parents insist they went to check on the children every half hour or so, the restaurant waiters said they never.
as a nanny ,i gave medicine to my charges...and u do not have to be a dr. to give sedation. all of u parents out there probably do it every time certain cough mixtures are given or antihistamines..etc.
these do knock kids out.so a lot of folk are sedating their kids..legally.
today it was suggessted that the body was hidden in the church..and they were helped by the clergy.
who is writing this modern day tale of horror.
i do not personally think kate and gerry did anything.but the truth will out...bear in mind that murat hired a car next day and came to norfolk??????
maybe it was even the same car the mcanns had hired later!!!!
i have to say that as a newbir..i do not really feel very we;lcome.it seems very cliquie.
i might not stay.
Whitewater
11-Sep-07, 22:51
Gleeber and scorrie, have to agree with you both most of the way, but not 100%.
I have no real opinion on it, they left the children alone, OK, that on face value is completely wrong, but we don't know the circumstances of the situation or the checking arrangements they had in place, only what we get through the media, and they are often wrong, not enough research done into the facts before they publish or announce in the news slots.
I think there is a lot of pressure being put on the local police to get closure, they are therefore exploring all possibilities, and no matter what we think, they are persuing what to some people is a probable scenario, and not an impossible one, or one to be shrugged aside. It is another avenue of enquiry, and the police have to have no feelings one way or the other on this or any other issue.
Not being there, not knowing the couple, not being a policeman or detective, I have no idea what happened, what to think, or what sort of people the MacCanns are. I just keep an open mind.
Anything is possible.
i,ve been trying to keep my nose out of this as i guess it,ll all come out in the wash eventually. BUT, what i cant get my head around is , Are there some medical conditions that they had to sedate their kids. God knows at times when my two were growing up i,ve wished they were sedated , but to actually do it, it doesnt bear thinking about . Why ?? :confused :(
Hi johno,
There is no evidence that they sedated the children.
However,...in context! In the past three or four decades, children have been routinely sedated for all mannner of distressing events, dentists etc...also anxiety and hyperactivity.
'Largactil', or the 'liquid cosh' as it is known, was regularly administered to those as young as five..for 'behavioural problems' and laterly more up to date medicines from the diazepam family have still found favour in this field.
Sleep walking has commonly been treated thus.....and Madeleine did suffer from this condition.
If sedation was administered, it is pretty standard in sleep walking cases and lends little to the debate.
You can add to the dose deliberately or accidently and frankly your results will just be a child who sleeps very soundly and may be groggy on awakening and throughout the following day.
Dosages are well known.
Karia
I thought it was common practice for parents to be 'suspects' from very early on in an investigation, until they can be conclusively ruled out? Or am I reading too many novels/watching too many programmes? No you are not reading too many novels or watching too many programmes.
What puzzles me is that the British Media and Journalists who are busy in Portugal commenting on how the local Police are totally incompetent then why hasn't the case been solved?
From the camera shots on the TV News and from the reports about the vast crowd of Journalists in the local area then they probably outnumber the local Police tenfold.
Seeing they know exactly what should or shouldn't be done in investigating what happened then why have they not solved the whole thing.
Could it just be that when it comes to such matters then they just “haven’t got a clue what they are doing”?
changilass
12-Sep-07, 11:43
Hi johno,
There is no evidence that they sedated the children.
However,...in context! In the past three or four decades, children have been routinely sedated for all mannner of distressing events, dentists etc...also anxiety and hyperactivity.
'Largactil', or the 'liquid cosh' as it is known, was regularly administered to those as young as five..for 'behavioural problems' and laterly more up to date medicines from the diazepam family have still found favour in this field.
Sleep walking has commonly been treated thus.....and Madeleine did suffer from this condition.
If sedation was administered, it is pretty standard in sleep walking cases and lends little to the debate.
You can add to the dose deliberately or accidently and frankly your results will just be a child who sleeps very soundly and may be groggy on awakening and throughout the following day.
Dosages are well known.
Karia
Surely IF a child suffers from sleepwalking it is even more reason not to leave them unattended in an unlocked room where you cannot see the exit.
My oldest boy sleep walked from an early age, 3 yrs old , after meningitis
which thankfully left him with no problems [ he was lucky]
But if sedation was an option then we certainly would NOT have taken this option, and we certainly would not have left our children unattended for any period of time whatsoever especially in a foreign place. But im sure that the Macann,s deeply regret that now :(
I have no real opinion on it, they left the children alone, OK, that on face value is completely wrong, but we don't know the circumstances of the situation or the checking arrangements they had in place, only what we get through the media, and they are often wrong, not enough research done into the facts before they publish or announce in the news slots.
I agree with you about keeping an open mind. However, on the issue of neglect the guilt is self-evident. One of their children is missing and they have admitted to leaving them alone. If they had checking arrangements in place, these were clearly not good enough. I cannot think of any circumstances that would justify leaving such young children alone. Even if one of the parents were ill, or both had been arrested etc etc, it would have been normal to get someone to watch the kids until they could return. As you say, anything is possible as far as Maddy's fate is concerned.
connieb19
12-Sep-07, 17:09
Hi johno,
There is no evidence that they sedated the children.
Sleep walking has commonly been treated thus.....and Madeleine did suffer from this condition.
KariaYou're so quick at telling other people to wait for facts, how do you know this is true? If she is a sleepwalker why were they so sure she couldn't have wandered off instead of assuming it was an abduction?
i have to say that as a newbir..i do not really feel very we;lcome.it seems very cliquie.
i might not stay.
Heck, binbob.......don't let that worry you....it gets better!:lol:
It's not really cliquey......but there is a tendency on all forums, not just this one, not to acknowledge posts to which you don't have an opinion /need to reply.
My speciality is killing a thread stone dead...though I still haven't worked out if everybody is avoiding me, or if I have nailed the whole discussion in a few well chosen words. :confused
I prefer to assume the latter, btw!
Well it's been a long time in coming but todays national papers have it. The McCanns are to be cleared as suspects in the disappearance of their daughter Madelaine within the next seven days. Seems the forensics being analysed in Britain,were inconclusive. Perhaps now the Portugese police can get down to some real investigating at last. Mind you, i think it's best left to Metado 3, as they are way ahead of them anyway. Also a British holidaymaker has spoken out as well to say that when the child vanished, she told the police that a strange looking man had been hanging around and was seen trying all the downstairs shutters one full week before Madelaine went missing. Of course they did not act on this information either. I'm glad for the family today as this news must lift a weight of their shoulders. The only thing that can surpass this feeling, is the safe return of Madelaine by Metado 3.
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