View Full Version : What should the church be doing in our community?
In light of other discussions on God, church and the invovement of those in society, I just wanted to turn the discussion upside down and ask this:
What do you think the church should be doing in our community?
Let me just express the opinion of some orgers by saying in advance that I know you think the church should disappear...can we take that view as having been aired now and move to the positive? Here is your chance to have an input into the life of the church which will be taken seriously by us (The SA) at least.
many thanks...I look forward to your responses.
Andrew Clark
Captain,
The Salvation Army - Wick
percy toboggan
05-Sep-07, 20:18
Engaging youth perhaps.
Personally, I think the majority of older folks are too cynical to take any 'new' message/approach on board. Offer charity to down and outs, and the hapless/helpless. The interested others should have the wherewithal to find YOU.
I'm not a Caithnessian, not even a Scot, and though I respect what you do, and what you try to do, I feel you're up against it in a largely post-religious indigenous society.
Good luck.
Engaging youth perhaps.
Personally, I think the majority of older folks are too cynical to take any 'new' message/approach on board. Offer charity to down and outs, and the hapless/helpless. The interested others should have the wherewithal to find YOU.
I'm not a Caithnessian, not even a Scot, and though I respect what you do, and what you try to do, I feel you're up against it in a largely post-religious indigenous society.
Good luck.
Yes, it is true that teenagers in the UK are responding to the Christian message much more than their parents or grandparents. Part of that is to do with the fact that many parts of the church are shaking the cobwebs off of classic Christianity. Certainly in The Salvation Army we've seen huge increases in attendance at youth worship services and the like. Thanks for the contribution.
With regards to the hapless/helpless, we are seeking ways to do this in this community.
AC
The Church should be telling the people the truth!!! unless that they are born again they will perish!! the church must tell people that not all people go to Heaven when they die! you must have faith in Christ before you can be in Heaven.
The Church should be telling the people the truth!!! unless that they are born again they will perish!! the church must tell people that not all people go to Heaven when they die! you must have faith in Christ before you can be in Heaven.
Thanks bluezulu. We at The Salvation Army take that as accepted and actively share that message. The Salvation Army is an integral part of the Christian Church, although distinctive in government and practice. The Army’s doctrine follows the mainstream of Christian belief and its articles of faith emphasise God’s saving purposes. Its objects are ‘the advancement of the Christian religion… of education, the relief of poverty, and other charitable objects beneficial to society or the community of mankind as a whole.’*
*Salvation Army Act 1980
In light of other discussions on God, church and the invovement of those in society, I just wanted to turn the discussion upside down and ask this:
What do you think the church should be doing in our community?
Let me just express the opinion of some orgers by saying in advance that I know you think the church should disappear...can we take that view as having been aired now and move to the positive? Here is your chance to have an input into the life of the church which will be taken seriously by us (The SA) at least.
many thanks...I look forward to your responses.
Andrew Clark
Captain,
The Salvation Army - Wick
I think the Church should be thinking about closing its own doors so that folks can spend their days more usefully like making the World a better place to live in than spending it praying and driving to Church and stuff. They should be living for the present rather than preparing for a non existent afterlife.
I think the Church should be thinking about closing its own doors so that folks can spend their days more usefully like making the World a better place to live in than spending it praying and driving to Church and stuff. They should be living for the present rather than preparing for a non existent afterlife.
Thanks Rheghed...I did say in the original post that I know many people believe that the church should dissappear. The fact is being well debated elsewhere. What I am hoping for is practical ideas.
Although, in there you do make an important point...the church should be active in the community. What I am asking is 'how'?
I think the Church should be thinking about closing its own doors so that folks can spend their days more usefully like making the World a better place to live in than spending it praying and driving to Church and stuff. They should be living for the present rather than preparing for a non existent afterlife.
Hi Rheghead,
Absolutely!
A lot of good people are wasting today in the hope of tomorrow.
I personally rate those who 'do good by stealth' and are found out by accident.
Why do the 'God Botherers' have to go on about how good they are...I thought that these things were supposed to bring their own reward.
I know that kindness certainly does!
JFYI Andrew,..my husband is a 'son of the manse' so I know my stuff!
karia
Hi Rheghead,
Absolutely!
A lot of good people are wasting today in the hope of tomorrow.
I personally rate those who 'do good by stealth' and are found out by accident.
Why do the 'God Botherers' have to go on about how good they are...I thought that these things were supposed to bring their own reward.
I know that kindness certainly does!
JFYI Andrew,..my husband is a 'son of the manse' so I know my stuff!
karia
Again, I'm well aware of that strand of thought. And, given the fact that the church isn't going anywhere, what practically should it doing in the community?
Phoebus_Apollo
05-Sep-07, 21:15
In light of other discussions on God, church and the invovement of those in society, I just wanted to turn the discussion upside down and ask this:
What do you think the church should be doing in our community?
Let me just express the opinion of some orgers by saying in advance that I know you think the church should disappear...can we take that view as having been aired now and move to the positive? Here is your chance to have an input into the life of the church which will be taken seriously by us (The SA) at least.
many thanks...I look forward to your responses.
Andrew Clark
Captain,
The Salvation Army - Wick
I think the church could do with a "New Labour" style rebranding, in its current guise it repels more people than it attracts. Years of pontificating about the blessed "saviour" has become as devoid of meaning as a Tory Party Conference. On a serious point does the church even have a role in modern society? - I think we have corroded our core values down to such a base level that there is no saving the human race from its ultimate self-perpetuated demise.
Again, I'm well aware of that strand of thought. And, given the fact that the church isn't going anywhere, what practically should it doing in the community?
Hi Andrew,
As you have accepted that the church isn't going anywhere ,...why should it be doing anything in the community?
Has 'the community' asked for it's input?
Karia
I think the church could do with a "New Labour" style rebranding, in its current guise it repels more people than it attracts. Years of pontificating about the blessed "saviour" has become as devoid of meaning as a Tory Party Conference. On a serious point does the church even have a role in modern society? - I think we have corroded our core values down to such a base level that there is no saving the human race from its ultimate self-perpetuated demise.
I agree...the church is a boring old dog to look at the vast majority of the time. The church has also failed to match the talk with the walk, thus the point of the thread.
The only response to the last part of your comment I'd make is that if you took The Salvation Army (an integral part of the Christian Church) away you'd create a huge social problem in this country.
I tend to agree with Rheghead although its not easy to say that without sounding harsh.
I dont think religion has proven to be a good thing for mankind. That doesnt alter the fact that individuals lead very productive and good lives as Christians. I dont think its a good thing to push things onto others, in the case of the church, biblical belief? Christianity is infectious, but is it true?
I question it, just like Andrews aim is to spread it.
How can we reconcile the 2?
One of the things the church could do would be to have a yoga night. The night could be started by singing a hymn or maybe 2. Then an hour of yoga,maybe another hour of throwing the christians to the lions, or vise versa, and then another hymn or 2 and then a prayer to finish.
Sounds nice but that scenario wouldnt be possable because Andrew wouldnt allow it.
In light of other discussions on God, church and the invovement of those in society, I just wanted to turn the discussion upside down and ask this:
What do you think the church should be doing in our community?
Let me just express the opinion of some orgers by saying in advance that I know you think the church should disappear...can we take that view as having been aired now and move to the positive? Here is your chance to have an input into the life of the church which will be taken seriously by us (The SA) at least.
many thanks...I look forward to your responses.
Andrew Clark
Captain,
The Salvation Army - Wick
Andrew
I know what I would like the church to do, thats to spread the word of the Lord and hope that it improved the morals, if that's the right word to use, of the community.
However, I think it is too late to change the way the majority of people act or think in today's society. This is very sad as I believe that the church should have some input, even minor, into the way people behave nowadays.
I am not a strong religious person, I don't go to church all that often. I do however believe in God, and quite often my decisions are made by thinking "would God approve of this".
Not sure if this answers your question, but just giving my opinion.
The Loafer
Andrew, cant help but think that you appear to [ to me anyway] be using the org to drum up bussiness. maybe you should use the wanted section.
sorry if i sound catty, im not really trying to put you down here.i can see that your trying to do some good
it,s like when you get these bible thumpers knocking on your door usually on a sunday when one is in the middle of the sunday dinner. thing being if i felt like going to church i would, but not cause someone talked me into it. nor would i change to salvationist or a mormon or a jev witness just cause a guy says this is the faith to be. i like i always do,I do as I want to do.
Lolabelle
05-Sep-07, 21:46
To preach the gospel, in season and out of season. And it seems that society today thinks it is out of season. :eek: One way or another, we will find out, and as for if it is true or not, well if it isn't those of us who believe in the bible and all that it hold to be true, will have led a good life and had a hope and something to believe in with nothing lost. If, on the hand it is true, those who don't believe it will have to give an account of their life and why they didn't follow the commandments of Christ. Either way, I am happy with my choice.
To preach the gospel, in season and out of season. And it seems that society today thinks it is out of season. :eek: One way or another, we will find out, and as for if it is true or not, well if it isn't those of us who believe in the bible and all that it hold to be true, will have led a good life and had a hope and something to believe in with nothing lost. If, on the hand it is true, those who don't believe it will have to give an account of their life and why they didn't follow the commandments of Christ. Either way, I am happy with my choice.wont we all have to give an account to god:eek:
SandTiger
05-Sep-07, 21:49
How about just being less dogmatic?
Camel Spider
05-Sep-07, 21:57
I agree...the church is a boring old dog to look at the vast majority of the time. The church has also failed to match the talk with the walk, thus the point of the thread.
The only response to the last part of your comment I'd make is that if you took The Salvation Army (an integral part of the Christian Church) away you'd create a huge social problem in this country.
C'mon Andrew .. Are you seriously suggesting that if the Salavation Army disappeared tomorrow we would enter some huge social chasm ?? .. :eek:
The Salavation Army is obviously a major part of your life and undoubtedly it does do good work. That last comment is in no way a personal dig at you but I find your assumption about the Salvation Army a bit .. erm .. ambitious shall we say.
Lolabelle
05-Sep-07, 22:01
wont we all have to give an account to god:eek:
Yeah, you're right. But if you're having a go, it will be less of an ordeal. At least I hope so:confused.
Yeah, you're right. But if you're having a go, it will be less of an ordeal. At least I hope so:confused.no im not having a go:Razz
SandTiger
05-Sep-07, 22:07
who.s being dogmatic.?
It was a thought on the general question ;)
Lolabelle
05-Sep-07, 22:08
no im not having a go:Razz
Not having a go at me, but having a go for the Lord, I mean [lol]
Hi Andrew,
As you have accepted that the church isn't going anywhere ,...why should it be doing anything in the community?
Has 'the community' asked for it's input?
Karia
lol what I meant was that The Salvation Army isn't about to disappear.
highlander
05-Sep-07, 22:55
In my own opinion i feel the question being asked is "what should the community be doing for the church"? Too many times over the years i have been asked to join different religions, its getting as bad as the callers you get wanting you to buy new doors and windows. If i feel the need to ask for answers, i would sit in a quiet place and let common sense take over and give me the answer. The different churchs all like to preach that they are whiter than white, i knew a girl who was in sally annes, she got pregnant before she got married, did they stand by her? Nope not a bit, she was given such a sermon and cold shoulder by people who used to be her friends, then you get the mormons, now if you dont listen to what they say, he stuck his foot in the door so i could not shut it. You read in the papers so many times of catholic priests being taken up for interfering with children. My sister lived the states as she was on her own so much with her husband being in the navy she got sucked in by jev witnesses, if we got any letters back from her it always held a sermon or verse such and such, she was brain washed!!
C'mon Andrew .. Are you seriously suggesting that if the Salavation Army disappeared tomorrow we would enter some huge social chasm ?? .. :eek:
The Salavation Army is obviously a major part of your life and undoubtedly it does do good work. That last comment is in no way a personal dig at you but I find your assumption about the Salvation Army a bit .. erm .. ambitious shall we say.
The Salvation Army in the UK is the largest provider of a diverse range social welfare in this country, next to the government.
Across the UK and Republic of Ireland, we have approximately:
50,000 church members
4,000 employees
1,500 Salvation Army officers (full-time ministers)
776 local church and community centres
50 residential centres for homeless men, women and families
18 residential centres for elderly people
Six centres for families and one community home for children
Six substance misuse centres
Two centres for people with special needs
In practical terms, every year The Salvation Army:
Serves two million meals to people in need
Reunites over 3,000 people through our Family Tracing Service
Helps 1,300 people to successfully move from homelessness to independent living
Assists the emergency services at 150 major incidents
Provides professional addiction services to 1,000 people at any timeThese figures are just in the UK. We are active in 113 countries in the world.
Internationally:
Corps-based community development programmes.....762
Beneficiaries/clients.....865,376
Thrift stores/charity shops (corps/territorial).....1,496
Recycling centres.....27
Social Programme
Residential
Hostels for homeless and transient.....618
Capacity.....32,429
Emergency lodges.....207
Capacity.....9,565
Children’s homes.....215
Capacity.....9,568
Homes for the elderly.....191
Capacity.....13,060
Homes for the disabled.....47
Capacity.....1,615
Homes for the blind.....8
Capacity.....339
Remand and probation homes .....60
Capacity.....1,106
Homes for street children.....29
Capacity.....643
Mother and baby homes.....40
Capacity.....1,348
Training centres for families.....19
Capacity.....252
Care homes for vulnerable people.....55
Capacity.....953
Women’s and men’s refuge centres.....98
Capacity.....2,004
Other residential care homes/hostels..... 399
Capacity.....5,402
Day Care
Community centres.....638
Early childhood education centres.....195
Capacity.....23,092
Day centres for the elderly.....211
Capacity.....23,471
Play groups.....161
Capacity.....4,707
Day centre for the hearing impaired.....14
Capacity.....246
Day centres for street children.....20
Capacity.....5,120
Day nurseries.....145
Capacity.....6,817
Drop-in centres for youth.....291
Other day care centres.....279
Capacity.....42,951
Addiction Dependency
Non-residential programmes.....63
Capacity.....2,129
Residential programmes.....205
Capacity.....12,734
Harbour Light programmes.....40
Capacity.....2,934
Other services for those with addictions.....46
Capacity.....2,903
Service to the Armed Forces
Clubs and canteens.....22
Mobile units for service personnel.....38
Chaplains.....21
Emergency Disaster Response
Disaster rehabilitation schemes .....38
Participants.....7,199
Refugee programmes – host country.....43
Participants.....26,110
Refugee Rehabilitation Programmes.....8
Participants.....22,892
Other response programmes.....2,020
Participants.....295,650
Services to the Community
Prisoners visited.....298,124
Prisoners helped on discharge.....143,107
Police courts – people helped.....249,801
Missing persons – applications.....12,405.....number traced.....8,165
Night patrol/anti-suicide – number helped.....269,286
Community youth programmes.....548
Beneficiaries.....72,539
Employment bureaux – applications.....477,893.....initial referrals.....141,169
Counselling – people helped.....481,418
General relief – people helped.....15,644,817
Emergency relief (fire, flood, etc) – people helped.....3,954,668
Emergency mobile units.....1,447
Feeding Centres.....39,635
Restaurants and cafes.....41
Thrift stores/charity shops (social).....1,263
Apartments for elderly.....2,170
Capacity.....7,514
Hostels for students, workers, etc.....64
Capacity.....3,992
Land settlements (SA villages, farms etc).....47
Capacity.....1,939
Social services summer camps.....133
Participants.....19,244
Other services to the community (unspecified).....126
Beneficiaries.....30,179,664
Health Programme
General hospitals.....20
Capacity.....2,439
Maternity hospitals.....11
Capacity.....302
Other specialist hospitals.....16
Capacity.....1582
Specialist clinics.....46
Capacity.....369
General clinics/health centres .....181
Capacity.....838
Mobile clinics/community health posts.....50
Inpatients.....158,971
Outpatients..... 989,574
Doctors/medics.....946
Invalid/convalescent homes.....30
Capacity.....572
Health education programmes (HIV/Aids, etc).....5,134
Beneficiaries.....331,578
Day care programmes.....10
Education Programme
Kindergarten/sub primary.....680
Primary schools.....1,011
Upper primary and middle schools.....192
Secondary and high schools.....193
Colleges & Universities.....14
Vocational training schools/centres.....104
Pupils.....478,793
Teachers.....15,649
Schools for the blind (included in above totals).....23
Schools for the disabled (included in above totals).....9
Boarding Schools (included in above totals).....29
Evening Schools .....10
Colleges, universities, staff training and development study and distance learning centres.....18
(figures for 2005/2006)
I find the cynicism just a little bit sad, but I'd still like to hear people's opinions about what they think the church could do practically in the town.
aye, you cant beat a good advertisment. we do know that the sally ann does great work. but i think your still pushing it down our throats.:roll:
aye, you cant beat a good advertisment. we do know that the sally ann does great work. but i think your still pushing it down our throats.:roll:
I think you might find that I'm asking opinions...your free not to give it or even read the post.
I find the cynicism just a little bit sad, but I'd still like to hear people's opinions about what they think the church could do practically in the town.
I dont feel that Andrews pushing anything down my throat. I dont feel threatened by Andrew and I'm sure he doesnt feel threatened by me.
Andrews doing what he does best and its not easy but he loves it.:D
I still think the yoga classes would be a good idea.
I dont feel that Andrews pushing anything down my throat. I dont feel threatened by Andrew and I'm sure he doesnt feel threatened by me.
Andrews doing what he does best and its not easy but he loves it.:D
I still think the yoga classes would be a good idea.
LOL jury is still out on the yoga...maybe I'll invent the Jesus version lol
I wonder if Jesus meditated as opposed to praying?
So why are you preaching to me?
sorry buddy, im not the preaching kind. :eek:
I think you might find that I'm asking opinions...your free not to give it or even read the post.
now thats not a nice comment from a man of the cloth. :~(
I wonder if Jesus meditated as opposed to praying?
There is nothing wrong with Christian meditation...its commonly practised. :)
now thats not a nice comment from a man of the cloth. :~(
Just pointing out your options...I am aware that you and others are anti...I'll defend to the death your right to have that opinion, but what I was trying to do was to be positive.
cheers
Andrew
Im a bit concerned that a strom may be brewing because of the rise of philosophocil fundamentalism on the org so I wont reply for the moment until golachs plea for sanity is heard.
Im too tired anyway.
Jeemag_USA
05-Sep-07, 23:23
There is nothing wrong with Christian meditation...its commonly practised. :)
When Jesus was growing up, the most common religion in the area was Zoroastrianism, which is also believed to be the philosophical religion studied by the "Magi" or three wise men. In Zoroastrianism meditation was practiced and also was things like only sleeping for a few hours each day in order to spend more of your life gaining knowledge. So when Jesus went into the desert for as many days as he did, i believe he would have spent most time in comtemplation and meditation and he would have been prepared for it by what he had learned from the "Magi".
Sorry to go off track, Andrew egged me on ;)
SandTiger
05-Sep-07, 23:24
LOL jury is still out on the yoga...maybe I'll invent the Jesus version lol
It's already being discussed Andrew...
Probe Ministries - Yoga and Christianity: Are They Compatible?
www.probe.org/content/view/967/0/
Christian Yoga
www.acfnewsource.org/religion/christian_yoga.html
YOGA AND CHRISTIANITY
www.dlshq.org/religions/yogachristian.htm
Yoga and Christianity a Conflict?
http://ezinearticles.com/?Yoga-and-Christianity-a-Conflict?&id=52828
Yes to Yoga | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical ...
www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/mayweb-only/42.0b.html
Why A Christian ALTERNATIVE to Yoga?
http://www.praisemoves.com/ChristianAlternative.htm
Go on, take the first step in a positive and brave direction :)
Camel Spider
05-Sep-07, 23:27
Andrew,
I just made the point you werent invaluable, no need for the blatant plug. Statistics can be produced for anything, 56.8% of people know that .. ;)
I have suddenly become overwhelmed with apathy on this subject.
Ta Ta.
Just pointing out your options...I am aware that you and others are anti...I'll defend to the death your right to have that opinion, but what I was trying to do was to be positive.
cheers
Andrew
aye ok andrew well leave it at that then. but like the dwarf that superglued his willy to the vacume a few weeks ago, he got a power of free advertising for his show on the fringe also. ;) :Razz
SandTiger
05-Sep-07, 23:32
sorry buddy, im not the preaching kind. :eek:
Define preaching then?
I think the church could do with a "New Labour" style rebranding.
Don't tell me....errr.....like a Blair WitchPope Project??
what i find distressing is the fact.. while people will scream.. BIBLE BASHER>> BIBLE BASHER!!!!
no one seems to blink an eye when the table is turned, and people are reviled for their faiths and beliefs.
ridiculing ones beliefs no matter what they are , is wrong.
you in essence become that which you are going on about. i would never condem anyone for beliving dif. from myself.. but too many times to count over the last several years, I have been myself condemed for my beliefs.
now tell me this.. if it had not been the salvation army.. a religious organisation that had posed the question.. How can we as a group help out in the community? but an unattached to any affiliation group would the responses have been the same do you think?
I applaud any group that gets out and helps the less fortunate.
their is no where it says.. you have to belive what we belive or we wont help you.
heres a point in fact. I was raised a southern baptist.
the most closed minded hyporcritical of all of the lot.
I dont agree with all the teachings.. and that did cause greif in the church when i was younger, but i dont hold it against them. they belive what they want and i belive what i want.
the church of jesus christ.. also known as the "mormons" have been an absolute blessing to me over the years ive been here.
im not part of their church..
but i have become friends over the years with members.. and in my times of need they have stepped foward and helped and gave support with out ever ever asking for anything in return.
thats the way it should be.
its a subject every one will always argue on..
but the least any of you "civilised and modern" peoples can do is give others the respect that you demand for yourself.
no one is telling you how to belive.. and you have no right to tell others how they should belive.
with this mentality how long will it be before people are being persecuted again?
what i find distressing is the fact.. while people will scream.. BIBLE BASHER>> BIBLE BASHER!!!!
no one seems to blink an eye when the table is turned, and people are reviled for their faiths and beliefs.
ridiculing ones beliefs no matter what they are , is wrong.
you in essence become that which you are going on about. i would never condem anyone for beliving dif. from myself.. but too many times to count over the last several years, I have been myself condemed for my beliefs.
now tell me this.. if it had not been the salvation army.. a religious organisation that had posed the question.. How can we as a group help out in the community? but an unattached to any affiliation group would the responses have been the same do you think?
I applaud any group that gets out and helps the less fortunate.
their is no where it says.. you have to belive what we belive or we wont help you.
heres a point in fact. I was raised a southern baptist.
the most closed minded hyporcritical of all of the lot.
I dont agree with all the teachings.. and that did cause greif in the church when i was younger, but i dont hold it against them. they belive what they want and i belive what i want.
the church of jesus christ.. also known as the "mormons" have been an absolute blessing to me over the years ive been here.
im not part of their church..
but i have become friends over the years with members.. and in my times of need they have stepped foward and helped and gave support with out ever ever asking for anything in return.
thats the way it should be.
its a subject every one will always argue on..
but the least any of you "civilised and modern" peoples can do is give others the respect that you demand for yourself.
no one is telling you how to belive.. and you have no right to tell others how they should belive.
with this mentality how long will it be before people are being persecuted again?
If it is any comfort to you, I don't think anyone on the org (least of all myself ) has condemned you for your beliefs. I may have questioned the validity of faith but never have I made any condemnation.
Apart from that, I think there is a possibility of an afterlife of sorts afterall without having to have faith in God.
If the universe expands exponentiallly then starts to slow down, then contracts in on itself under gravity, it will eventually reduce to an ordered infinite small point again. As it is a singularity, it will explode into another big bang and I will have the opportunity to question your faith again and you will feel you are being condemned again. Though if it is any comfort, I will take this opportunity to say SORRY for any unintentioned upset. Now if my theory is correct, I have just apologised an infinite number of times. It is all deterministic....:)
*laughs* oh god rheg.. and all i thought i had to worry about was reincarnation! *laughs* i wasnt refering to anyone in particualr on the org. but the ones i am refering to may be on here have no idea!
but really , i have had people.. confront me and tell me that i was stupid to belive in God. that their was no such thing.
and have been told that i was in the wrong in my faith and if i knew what was good for me to quit beliving in that rubbish and do something worth while with my life.
hey ive even been patronizingly told by an 18 year old.. who had a couisin who was so and so in such and such.. and they could prove their was no such thing as God, because earth was colonized by aliens..
*rolls eyes*
i ended up telling them.. that that may be true.. earth could have very well been seeded.. but how does that prove theirs no such thing as God?
would not a colony bring with them thier faiths and beliefs?
PS
just wanted to say thanks for your post though.. and if your theory is corect.. does that mean im gonna be thanking you for all time now?
Really glad you're all enjoying yourselves, but there is still opportunity for people to add their views with regards to what they think the church should be doing in the area.
As I said in the original post, I accept that some of you would like us to dissappear (not going to happen) and others who don't believe in God (its well within your rights to hold that view), but I had wanted to take that opinion as 'already aired' so that we could move to something more positive :)
Still looking forward to hearing from you...
Andrew C
Could you elucidate on the statment of SA theology below? And then please tell me how you can spot the "totally depraved."
Perhaps you might like to furnish an estimate of the numbers of "totally depraved" in the County of Caithness. Would you count yourself among the "totally depraved." ? (If so we could probably get together for a couple of pints with some of our fellow depraved from the Caithness.org)
"We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency. but by their disobedience they lost their purity and happiness; and that in consequence of their fall all men have become sinners, totally depraved. and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God."
If I might add an addendum to my post above. Could you comment on this:
"We believe in the immortality of the soul; in the resurrection of the body; in the general judgment at the end of the world; in the eternal happiness of the righteous; and in the endless punishment of the wicked"
It's the endless judgement of the wicked that gets to me. What form does this endless piunishment take. Thumbscrews? The rack? Endless playing of Metallica?
I also want to know if Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa are among the ranks of the wicked. Does the wicked include atheists like Bertrand Russel? Is Charles Darwin being poked and prodded by chimpanzee imps for all eternity?
What about that awful sinner, Mozart? Do the boys in the band ever have a go at his requiem mass?
And so to my final post on this subject.
What the Salvation Army should be doing is overhauling some of their key theological presumptions. If the SA believes in Intelligent Design, or that the world and everything in it was created in 7 days a few hundred years before Christ then tell us this.
Also please spell out your postion on stem cell research, on termination of pregnancies, on the proliferation of nuclear weapons, on AIDS, and on the environment. Because these are the issues that any church should be dealing with.
Now, on a more upbeat (literally) note.
The Salvation Army in Ontario has created a jazz band. It is titled "RED AND BRASSY" and brings the Canadian Staff Band together with some key jazz musicians.
One of their numbers is called WELCOME TO BABYLON. (Whether Sodom and/or Gomorra will be visited in later CDs I have no idea!!!)
Here's a review:
‘Welcome to Babylon’ is a full orchestral piece based on a sultry Latin feel and woven into a rich musical tapestry. Michelli’s mallets elicit a mystical nature, while Farrugia’s piano burns down like the desert sun. ‘White Pants, Red Suspenders’ takes a Big Band approach to swing blues, with Styffe’s alto deftly moving in and around the melody, and Steve Brown’s muted cornet on the end a delightful addition. Delivered at a brisk swing tempo, ‘Four Year Old Steps’ showcases the quartet members, with each taking articulate solos over the changes. Bassist Hopkins trades 8’s with drummer Michelli, and a touch of Latin puts the finish on the end. The final three tracks, ‘Rebellion’, ‘Allegiances’, and ‘A New Age’, are taken from a project of five movements from ’Sketches of Upper Canada’, which the artist wrote to celebrate the founding settlers of southern Ontario. These tracks are splendid examples of the composer’s ability to integrate the two distinct natures of the music ensembles, with the quartet telling the story as the orchestra frames the message. Duncan Hopkins adds an inspired voice to Canadian jazz composition with his masterful ‘Red & Brassy’, offering a fascinating glimpse into the past, present and future in one invigorating musical breath.
For more information visit www.duncanhopkins.com
Could you elucidate on the statment of SA theology below? And then please tell me how you can spot the "totally depraved."
Perhaps you might like to furnish an estimate of the numbers of "totally depraved" in the County of Caithness. Would you count yourself among the "totally depraved." ? (If so we could probably get together for a couple of pints with some of our fellow depraved from the Caithness.org)
"We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency. but by their disobedience they lost their purity and happiness; and that in consequence of their fall all men have become sinners, totally depraved. and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God."
Hi, I'll clarify what I can. I'll go through bit by bit.
Firsty, just to say that the theolgical statements made above are not exclusively Salvation Army...they are general theological statements that your average Christian would assent to. The quotes you make, though, are from the 11 articles of faith of the Salvation Army.
And then please tell me how you can spot the "totally depraved."
Perhaps you might like to furnish an estimate of the numbers of "totally depraved" in the County of Caithness. Would you count yourself among the "totally depraved." ? (If so we could probably get together for a couple of pints with some of our fellow depraved from the Caithness.org)
All people are totally depraved...thats how you spot them! The bible teaches that mankind became tainted at the fall of Adam and Eve. This doesn't mean, however, that there is absolutely no good in people at all, it simply means that there is nothing in and of ourselves good enough that can get us to heaven, making us totally depraved because "goodness" or "righteousness" in this sense is by judged by God's standard in the bible, not man's standard. In response to a similar question such as you asked, Jesus said "No-one is good, except God alone" (Matt 10:18).
If you can tell me the population of Caithness, that would be the number of people who can't get into heaven by their own righteousness. Myself, my family, my fellow Salvationists and Christians in the town, like everyone else, are in the same boat. Isaiah said that our own righteousness is like filthy rags.
"We believe in the immortality of the soul; in the resurrection of the body; in the general judgment at the end of the world; in the eternal happiness of the righteous; and in the endless punishment of the wicked"
It's the endless judgement of the wicked that gets to me. What form does this endless piunishment take. Thumbscrews? The rack? Endless playing of Metallica?
Those who try to enter heaven by their own righteousness are who are being referred to as 'wicked.' These doctrines were 'carried over' from methodist doctrine so are around 250 - 350 years old...the connotation of the word wicked today is more severe. As I said, the 'wicked' are (according to the dictionary) those who are morally bad in principle or practice. Again, by people's standards most orgers are probably good, but the Bible says God's standards are higher.
With regards to forms of eternal punishment, the bible uses several descriptions. Jesus described it as a place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.(Jude 6; Matt 8:12; Matt 13:42, 50; Matt 25:30;). The Bible describes it as a bottomless pit, an abyss. (Revelation 20:1). It is described as a lake of fire. Jesus described it as a fire; a fiery furnace (Matthew 5:22; Matt 13:42 and 50; Matt 18:8-9; Matt 25:41; Mark 9:43, 47-48; Matthew 7:23 and 10:27-29). Hell is a place where every moment is lived in uncertainty (Matthew 5:21-23; Revelation 20:15). Hell is a pit of darkness; totally devoid of light; there's nothing to distract people from their suffering, sorrow, fears, insecurities, and instability. (2 Peter 3-5).
You did ask!!
I also want to know if Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa are among the ranks of the wicked. Does the wicked include atheists like Bertrand Russel? Is Charles Darwin being poked and prodded by chimpanzee imps for all eternity?
What about that awful sinner, Mozart? Do the boys in the band ever have a go at his requiem mass?
Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa would have seen themselves in the ranks of the wicked in that there was nothing good in them that made them deserve heaven, whereas Bertrand Russel, Mozart and Charles Darwin probably thought they were ok.
The point is that it is because we are all in the same boat that we need a Saviour. We've all broken God's law, deserving punishment. Those who accept that Jesus has paid the fine (the wages of sin is death, according to the bible) and trust in him to save them are those who inherit eternal life. We are then covered by Jesus' righteousness, not our own. Thats the gospel message in a nutshell.
So, we're all depraved, but we can be saved. When we are saved we grow in holiness (technically, its called sanctification)..in other words, the good things of God's character start to be inbuilt more and more into our daily living but thats not what gets us to heaven, we can't earn it. Its simply a by product of what happens at 'conversion.'
Any questions let me know.
yours
Andrew C
might sound odd but I'm a dyed in the wool atheist - BUT the 'Sally Bash' is the only charity I give my money too.. all the other so-called 'churches' sit on their arses whilst the SA gets stuck in to help others.. keep it up Andrew C (and was I right about your dog being named after a SA official?)
I have to say that after 3 pages I was amazed that none of you have still come up with any suggestions of what the SA could be doing in the community!
Considering that what we seem to do mostly on the board is complain about things going on in the community, why can't we come up with some creative input?
Its amazing how people are so quick to ignore anything if it is done by a 'religious' group. If tescos were offering a free lunch for OAPs it would be a sell out, but if the SA laid it on, then I can imagine that they would not be so busy.
I have the view that if you can get something for nothing then take it! If the SA can offer us something, surely we can take it, whether or not we agree with what they believe. It is after all up to to the individual what decisions they make.
So, what can they do for us? Hmmm, I know, have some club or another that will get all those pesky kids off my road and out the way for a few hours!
:D
how about things like creches
or days out for the elderly or handicapped?
visits to the nursing homes just to say hello and your not forgotten.
get a choir together and take them round to the hospital and invite the patients to the chapel to hear music and songs.
do something to draw in the teens, to try to get them to volunteer their time, to help instil a sence of community in them.
there are an endless list of things.
how about things like creches
or days out for the elderly or handicapped?
visits to the nursing homes just to say hello and your not forgotten.
get a choir together and take them round to the hospital and invite the patients to the chapel to hear music and songs.
do something to draw in the teens, to try to get them to volunteer their time, to help instil a sence of community in them.
there are an endless list of things.
Thanks for those! I suppose that was what I was looking for.
We are exploring the possibility of holding something called 'Baby Song' where mums or dads can bring their babies for a session of music, play and time of chat for mums....a bit like parent & toddlers but more structured with music.
I currently assist at North School taking children horse riding every week. We also visit three nursing homes once a month and have a little service and a blether with the folks in there. We are also invovled at the hospital in little services and on Christmas Day we all go and sing carols etc etc for the folks who are in hospital at Christmas.
Thank you for your suggestions, great stuff.
I have to say that after 3 pages I was amazed that none of you have still come up with any suggestions of what the SA could be doing in the community!
Considering that what we seem to do mostly on the board is complain about things going on in the community, why can't we come up with some creative input?
Its amazing how people are so quick to ignore anything if it is done by a 'religious' group. If tescos were offering a free lunch for OAPs it would be a sell out, but if the SA laid it on, then I can imagine that they would not be so busy.
I have the view that if you can get something for nothing then take it! If the SA can offer us something, surely we can take it, whether or not we agree with what they believe. It is after all up to to the individual what decisions they make.
So, what can they do for us? Hmmm, I know, have some club or another that will get all those pesky kids off my road and out the way for a few hours!
:) We have a club on Friday and Saturday night for kids aged 5-11...we get about 200 kids coming...maybe the perky kids on your street don't come, or is that an other night of the week? :)
And so to my final post on this subject.
What the Salvation Army should be doing is overhauling some of their key theological presumptions. If the SA believes in Intelligent Design, or that the world and everything in it was created in 7 days a few hundred years before Christ then tell us this.
Also please spell out your postion on stem cell research, on termination of pregnancies, on the proliferation of nuclear weapons, on AIDS, and on the environment. Because these are the issues that any church should be dealing with.
Our key "theological assuptions" are what you might call classically orthodox ones. You will notice that our statement of faith is relatively short, only 11 statements. This is all that is necessary to emphasis the basis of the gospel and the nature and character of God. The Handbook of Doctrine outlines our beliefs on other issues, which are peripheral to the key message of the church.
If you are looking for positional statements on issues such as those named above, can I redirect you to salvationarmy.org (http://www.salvationarmy.org)and salvationarmy.org.uk (http://www.salvationarmy.org.uk)
. In there you will find several 'Positional Statements' on a wide range of topics...everything from Fairtrade tea to abortion.
Thank you for directing me to the War Cry and its helpful links.
Reading the draft billl - all 240+ pages of it is not something I can squeeze into my current working schedule. However, I have skimmed it.
I get the impression the SA is still preparing its position - at least judging by the War Cry. Here's what took my attention.
"IT is every parent's nightmare - a sick child with no cure in sight. Last week a parliamentary committee recommended that the draft Human Tissue and Embryos Bill should allow parents to create a ‘saviour sibling', whose tissue could be used to provide a cure for their older brother or sister."
I am not at all sure where the phrase "saviour sibling" comes from. It is certainly not medical terminology I suspect it might originate from the Vatican. And in my skim of the bill I couldn't find it.
"Saviour sibling" certainly sounds morally repellant.
But suppose at birth a newborn's umbilical cord was preserved so that stem cells might be harvested from it to deal with future contingencies. Would that be so terrible?
We should also realize that stem cell research may hold the key to treatment of a whole series of maladies from heart disease to diabetes, to cancer.
Is the SA asking scientists to foresake this research? (I get the feeling you haven't really made up your collective mind on this one!)
Among the many potentially useful tasks the SA might consider undertaking is the education of people in matters scientific. Have you any plans for this.?
A community forum on the issue might be entertaining and interesting and, above all, informative....
.
Re-reading the above I realize a definition may be called for. So here is one. It deals with stem cells and cancer.
Autologous stem cell transplants refer to stem cells that are collected from an individual and given back to that same individual. Autologous transplants are also referred to as autografts, and are by far the most common type of transplant performed in myeloma patients today. With this type of transplant, the patient's stem cells are obtained prior to high-dose chemotherapy, frozen, and stored if necessary, and are then given back afterward.
Thanks for all your comments Rich. I'm not entirely sure how the thread of the topic, your concerns for our doctrine got round to stem cells and cancer, but I'm prepared to comment.
Scripture does not, of course, speak about the specific challenges of this century like stem cell research, nuclear weapons and other modern creations. However, the principles of scripture can be combined with reason, tradition and experience to give a secure moral framework. These statements and positions can only be produced after preparation. Like the rest of us...we'd all have to prepare our position with some study and thinking. I couldn't find the SA document you were quoting. I understand, for whatever reason, we have chosen to remain neutral in the discussion giving us the option to support the research in principle given its benefits but to call it into account where there are moral discrepencies, such as the creation of 'saviour siblings.' It seems like a wise position to me.
However, from articles I've seen are read recently in the War Cry etc I doubt that the Army would be asking for a halt to the research....I imagine that the position would be asking for due consideration of the morality of the study, taking into consideration the value and sanctity of life. If you got to the War Cry pages from the UK site, there are links to an interview with some sceintific reasearchers on this topic.
With regards to the use of the phrase 'saviour sibling' a google search shows that it is in use with regards to this topic. (eg. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6195.html)
Here is another (non-Salvation Army) Christian position which may explain the Christian stance further. I'm sure that the Army statment is not a thousand miles away from this. http://www.cmf.org.uk/literature/content.asp?context=article&id=1317
Finally, I'd suggest that the last people to begin teaching science is TSA. Its not a bad idea, its just that its not in our area of expertise or indeed part of our mission. The morality of certain scientific advances are something which we do consider ourselves qualitied to comment on.
However, Salvation Army scientists are at the forefront of discovery and technological advances in the treatment of alcohol related diseases and we put that into practice in our specialised centres.
Thanks, Andrew. Good to know that you are not being dogmatic about things.
Perhaps you can clear up something else for me or direct me.
My great great grandfather may have been a Salvation army officer in Thurso in the late 19th century. I haven't a clue if this is true or just some sort of myth. Where would I go to check things out? The name would have been Wade.
I know from experience that the Salvation Army is often the org that picks up the pieces, after other Religious organisations have come to blows.
I just wish that the religious bigots of this world would push off and let the people live in peace.
They say that there are no Atheists on a battle field, but I have yet to see any religious leaders there either.
I am not a religious person, but try to live by good moral standards - do on to others etc. etc. But a lot of my life has been affected by religion. (n.Ireland, near east and middle east)
I just wish they would all go away.
As to what you can do for Wick? I am given to understand that there are children in Wick living well below the poverty line. They can't help it. If this is so - that is where the help is needed.
I know from experience that the Salvation Army is often the org that picks up the pieces, after other Religious organisations have come to blows.
I just wish that the religious bigots of this world would push off and let the people live in peace.
They say that there are no Atheists on a battle field, but I have yet to see any religious leaders there either.
I am not a religious person, but try to live by good moral standards - do on to others etc. etc. But a lot of my life has been affected by religion. (n.Ireland, near east and middle east)
I just wish they would all go away.
As to what you can do for Wick? I am given to understand that there are children in Wick living well below the poverty line. They can't help it. If this is so - that is where the help is needed.
Thanks Jim...yes, we are alert to the issue of child poverty and I'm in the process of building up relationships with some of our families in poorer areas through the children at school and JAM club. We're 110% committed to eradicating child poverty. What ways do you think this can be done without denting people's self-worth do you think?
And just to comment on your other point, everyone knows that the Army is Christan to its core, but we never engage in biggotry in that our services are available to everyone...this is the way of Jesus.
Thanks for the comments.
Thanks, Andrew. Good to know that you are not being dogmatic about things.
Perhaps you can clear up something else for me or direct me.
My great great grandfather may have been a Salvation army officer in Thurso in the late 19th century. I haven't a clue if this is true or just some sort of myth. Where would I go to check things out? The name would have been Wade.
If you give the Salvation Army in Thurso a phonecall, the officer, Major Martin Sayer, should be able to look in the corps history book and get back to you to confirm either way. If he doesn't know, the Salvation Army Heritage Centre in London would be able to tell you. If Thurso don't come up with anything, let me know and I can give you contact details for the heritage centre.
There are two types of officer in The Salvation Army...there are commissioned officers like myself who move around the country every now and again, and there are what we call 'local officers', people who live and work locally, are part of a local Salvation Army corps but who take on some form of leadership (like a Bandmaster, Corps Sergeant Major or a Recruiting Sergeant etc). So, if your grandfather was a Thurso man all his life, seems more likely he was a local officer.
percy toboggan
15-Sep-07, 16:10
I find the cynicism just a little bit sad, but I'd still like to hear people's opinions about what they think the church could do practically in the town.
So do I - find it sad.
Just scanned the first page or two after me holidaze with tired eyes - a five am. rise and an eight hour drive. A mean spirited response by most. You're offering something positive at least, the fact that it comes with certain conditions is no bad thing - I'm assuming you'd want any beneficiaries of your services to have a semblance of 'belief'
Given the downward curve of society since the decline of organised religion I for one think you have summat to offer us all. I've not come down the road from Damascus or owt ( it was Mallaig, actually) and I've certainly not seen the light, however the less jaundiced, the rudderless and the downright blummin' hopeless might get something from religion. If only to match the rise of the muslims here then Christianity needs a re-birth, Once again I wish you well in your efforts as a counter to those churlish moaners who seek only to undermine your initiatives. At least your getting off your backside to do summat about the dysfunctional society we've been lumbered with.
Andrew C: "The point is that it is because we are all in the same boat that we need a Saviour. We've all broken God's law, deserving punishment. Those who accept that Jesus has paid the fine (the wages of sin is death, according to the bible) and trust in him to save them are those who inherit eternal life. We are then covered by Jesus righteousness, not our own". So if Judas had not bubbled Jesus, all sin would not have been cleansed? so why is Judas looked upon as evil? just a passing thought, not deeply theological.. but then I'm an atheist. Each to his own, we are all entitled to our own beliefs or non beliefs - as long as no one sticks their nose into my business I won't stick it in theirs. Had your SA folks around 'out west' today Andrew, wasn't you by any chance?
Andrew C: "The point is that it is because we are all in the same boat that we need a Saviour. We've all broken God's law, deserving punishment. Those who accept that Jesus has paid the fine (the wages of sin is death, according to the bible) and trust in him to save them are those who inherit eternal life. We are then covered by Jesus righteousness, not our own". So if Judas had not bubbled Jesus, all sin would not have been cleansed? so why is Judas looked upon as evil? just a passing thought, not deeply theological.. but then I'm an atheist. Each to his own, we are all entitled to our own beliefs or non beliefs - as long as no one sticks their nose into my business I won't stick it in theirs. Had your SA folks around 'out west' today Andrew, wasn't you by any chance?
Hi...no, Jesus was aware he would die at the hands of the Jews and the Romans it just so happened that Judas was instrumental.
I personally haven't been out on the 'annual appeal' yet, so wasn't me :o)
yours
Andrew
So do I - find it sad.
Just scanned the first page or two after me holidaze with tired eyes - a five am. rise and an eight hour drive. A mean spirited response by most. You're offering something positive at least, the fact that it comes with certain conditions is no bad thing - I'm assuming you'd want any beneficiaries of your services to have a semblance of 'belief'
Given the downward curve of society since the decline of organised religion I for one think you have summat to offer us all. I've not come down the road from Damascus or owt ( it was Mallaig, actually) and I've certainly not seen the light, however the less jaundiced, the rudderless and the downright blummin' hopeless might get something from religion. If only to match the rise of the muslims here then Christianity needs a re-birth, Once again I wish you well in your efforts as a counter to those churlish moaners who seek only to undermine your initiatives. At least your getting off your backside to do summat about the dysfunctional society we've been lumbered with.
We want people to embrace the gospel because it leads to life, hope and fulness - its why we do what we do. We'd be a strange people if we had a message like that and didn't want it to be shared. Thing is, the gospel is seen by many as a negative, 'out to spoil your fun', 'thou-shalt-not' pest of a message...often because this is how it has been protrayed by Christians and the church.
I agree with you also that Christianity is generally very shabby and tired these days...a re-birth is exactly wht it needs.
Thanks for your words.
Andrew C
rockchick
16-Sep-07, 08:36
Interesting post, Andrew.
I don't know how you'd go about doing it, but some sort of forum for young parents to get together, with facility for learning parenting skills would be a benefit to the community. I suppose it wouldn't attract the ones who would need it most, mores the pity.
We want people to embrace the gospel because it leads to life, hope and fulness - its why we do what we do. We'd be a strange people if we had a message like that and didn't want it to be shared. Thing is, the gospel is seen by many as a negative, 'out to spoil your fun', 'thou-shalt-not' pest of a message...often because this is how it has been protrayed by Christians and the church.
I agree with you also that Christianity is generally very shabby and tired these days...a re-birth is exactly wht it needs.
Thanks for your words.
Andrew C
Christianity discriminates at its very core whether its shabby or gleaming of gold dust and smelling of roses.
I agree that the church is a special organisation and could be an asset to any community. However Andrews reluctance to embrace the whole community shows its fruits to be slightly rotten.
I dont think Christians should be given free reign in any community to pass on its message to our children backed up by the words of a book written by people who used to stone women to death for adultry and continue to discriminate against certain members of our community even today. With love of course.
If Percys so concerned about Islam getting a hold in Britain that he would wish Christianity on us, I would suggest he wathches God tv for a week or two to see the agenda of some of these commited christians.
rockchick
16-Sep-07, 09:08
Perhaps a group where the beliefs and values of religions other than Christianity could be looked at, perhaps comparing them to Christianity in an open forum, might not be a bad thing. How many Christians actually understand the dogma of Islam, Judaism or Hinduism? Are the concepts of dharma and eternal damnation in hell that different from each other? Are reincarnation and eternal life completely incompatible as concepts?
thefugitive1993
16-Sep-07, 09:40
If the church is to survive and provide true worth to contemporary society, it should reform to the extent that it continues with charitable works, but gently disowns its superstition-based past.
Lots of groups have their history in a different era, but the earth is no longer flat, so by all means, have a badge,"Founded by Jesus 2,000 years ago", then drop the biblical myths (they only discredit your current efforts), and push on as a secular charity.
You mentioned earlier the church modernising and clearing away the cobwebs, but that should not mean learning some new guitar rifts, painting the hall in magnolia and saying, "cool" or "wicked", it should involve being aware of your history and teaching that as history, and then working good deeds with a view to serving contemporary needs. Blabbing on with the Godwash is insulting and muddies the waters.
Perhaps a group where the beliefs and values of religions other than Christianity could be looked at, perhaps comparing them to Christianity in an open forum, might not be a bad thing. How many Christians actually understand the dogma of Islam, Judaism or Hinduism? Are the concepts of dharma and eternal damnation in hell that different from each other? Are reincarnation and eternal life completely incompatible as concepts?the outsdanding thing about being a christian is that jesus did everything for us[ he came he served he died, but above all he rose again] all other faiths you must do do and more do;s all by works and not by faith its like serving a prison term, being a christian is having great freedom in jesus:Razzwhy not give it a try?
rockchick
16-Sep-07, 10:31
That is a pretty big statement. How does Judaism require you to "do do do"?
Interesting post, Andrew.
I don't know how you'd go about doing it, but some sort of forum for young parents to get together, with facility for learning parenting skills would be a benefit to the community. I suppose it wouldn't attract the ones who would need it most, mores the pity.
Yes, you very rarely attract people that need these sorts of things. I always find to that there is a fine line between teaching parenting skills and simpy patronising people...its a difficult one.
Thanks for the post.
Christianity discriminates at its very core whether its shabby or gleaming of gold dust and smelling of roses.
I agree that the church is a special organisation and could be an asset to any community. However Andrews reluctance to embrace the whole community shows its fruits to be slightly rotten.
I dont think Christians should be given free reign in any community to pass on its message to our children backed up by the words of a book written by people who used to stone women to death for adultry and continue to discriminate against certain members of our community even today. With love of course.
If Percys so concerned about Islam getting a hold in Britain that he would wish Christianity on us, I would suggest he wathches God tv for a week or two to see the agenda of some of these commited christians.
I'd like to challenge you to name one part of this community that I am reluctant to embrace. Embracing, you see, does not mean condoning. I will embrace the alcoholic, the drug addict etc but that doesn't mean I will agree with the thing that is getting them down.
Secondly, I wouldn't reccommend that anyone watch the drivell that sometimes appears on God TV!!! :)
Finally, as I've said before, I'm not expecting you all to agree with the Christian message. I am simply stating that the church, of which The Salvation Army is a part is passionately committed to serving and loving this community an nothing, absolutely nothing, will discourage us from this.
We're particularly stubborn in The Salvation Army, you see. Do you know the reason that our women used to wear the black straw bonnets??? Its because they needed them as helmets. The bonnets were covered in black tar to protect the heads of the Christian women who would witness for their Lord but who'd also spend their days and hours cleaning the houses of the poor. People would throw rocks and rotten vegetables at them.
The rocks that are thrown today may not be physical ones, but they are thrown neverthless. The truth remains that inspite of a few negative voices on this forum, our work is both wanted and needed by people. We will continue to fight in the Lords name and for the good of the community.
Thanks for your comments
Andrew C
That is a pretty big statement. How does Judaism require you to "do do do"?
Judaism is a religion focussed in keeping laws which are well nigh impossible to keep. The original intention of this law was to show people that we had no self-righteousness at all, but the jews continued to add law upon law upon law and failed to recognise the Saviour.
If the church is to survive and provide true worth to contemporary society, it should reform to the extent that it continues with charitable works, but gently disowns its superstition-based past.
Lots of groups have their history in a different era, but the earth is no longer flat, so by all means, have a badge,"Founded by Jesus 2,000 years ago", then drop the biblical myths (they only discredit your current efforts), and push on as a secular charity.
You mentioned earlier the church modernising and clearing away the cobwebs, but that should not mean learning some new guitar rifts, painting the hall in magnolia and saying, "cool" or "wicked", it should involve being aware of your history and teaching that as history, and then working good deeds with a view to serving contemporary needs. Blabbing on with the Godwash is insulting and muddies the waters.
With respect, Jesus Christ is as alive and active today as he was when he walked the streets of Israel. Sure, the church has history, but it has a living and active presence in the present.
We don't just speak about God, we experience God in our day to day lives. Where the church needs to modernise is, as you say, not with magnolia and guitar rifts, but in recognising that many churches lock God up in a cupboard and fail to minister in power in the way that he intended them to.
Thanks for the comments
Andrew C
I'd like to challenge you to name one part of this community that I am reluctant to embrace.
I offered an idea that yoga and hymn nights could be offered to the local community. I was serious although I do see the funny side.
You see, your reluctance to embrace people who practice yoga in your community is a black mark against you in my book. I understand your position though.
As for God tv or for that matter any of the Christian channels, they give a fair depiction of the kind of world Christians would like to live in. Its very similar to Islam. society and culture would be based around biblical theology.
Its difficult not to sound harsh when I have to defend my position against a true believer in the bible, but I grew up with the notion that those things were not to be challenged. I
I'm glad Andrew that you are prepared to put your faith on the line so to speak. The church has a lot to offer any community but it needs to spread its wings a bit.
rockchick
16-Sep-07, 17:33
Judaism is a religion focussed in keeping laws which are well nigh impossible to keep. The original intention of this law was to show people that we had no self-righteousness at all, but the jews continued to add law upon law upon law and failed to recognise the Saviour.
Hate to break it to you, but Christianity "laws" or dogma can be pretty impossible to keep, if you don't pick and choose which parts of the bible you follow. The Bible is self-contradictory in places, which is hardly surprising considering it was written by so many different people. The essential spirituality (as opposed to religion) of the Bible, including the teachings of Christ and his followers, IS possible to follow by mere mortals. However, this is true of any religion I know of...
Why would the Jews inability to recognise the Saviour be a reason to dismiss their faith? Perhaps they aren't wrong - perhaps their Saviour is still to come...THEY believe it, and who are you or I to tell them they're wrong?
Tolerance should extend to allow acknowledgment of others beliefs without judgment, IMHO.
I offered an idea that yoga and hymn nights could be offered to the local community. I was serious although I do see the funny side.
You see, your reluctance to embrace people who practice yoga in your community is a black mark against you in my book. I understand your position though.
As for God tv or for that matter any of the Christian channels, they give a fair depiction of the kind of world Christians would like to live in. Its very similar to Islam. society and culture would be based around biblical theology.
Its difficult not to sound harsh when I have to defend my position against a true believer in the bible, but I grew up with the notion that those things were not to be challenged. I
I'm glad Andrew that you are prepared to put your faith on the line so to speak. The church has a lot to offer any community but it needs to spread its wings a bit.
Your embracing argument is thin simply because its not true. I've openly invited the whole forum round for a cup of tea (invitation still open!) As I said, you don't have to believe in a persons actions or practice to embrace them. I am reluctant to embrace yoga, but the person who practices yoga is a friend of mine I assure you!
The scripture, God and the bible can stand up to the scrutiny of any questioning and thats why I've chosen to 'appear' here because if people don't get the chance to ask their questions and air their disquite they may never find out what lies at the heart of authentic faith. I love the fact that people are open for discussion, it just find it sad that people can't converse on an equal level without stooping to disrespect...and thats specifically aimed at you gleeber.
There is still much about the Christian faith that people are just not willing to see because they come at it with the same amount of prejudice that they are accusing me of. If we're talking 'open minds' then lets do that! :)
God TV....sure, you've picked up that Christian theology is based around the concept of the Kingdom of God. Every time you pray the Lord Prayer you pray "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." This simply means that we want a world that is devoid of all that is dark, negative and 'sinful' and that it be replaced with the opposite of those things. That kind of society would not just benefit the Bible believing Christian.
As for spreading wings, I'm all for it but how you would do that and how God would have us do that may be different things.
Thanks for your comments.
Andrew C
Hate to break it to you, but Christianity "laws" or dogma can be pretty impossible to keep, if you don't pick and choose which parts of the bible you follow. The Bible is self-contradictory in places, which is hardly surprising considering it was written by so many different people. The essential spirituality (as opposed to religion) of the Bible, including the teachings of Christ and his followers, IS possible to follow by mere mortals. However, this is true of any religion I know of...
Why would the Jews inability to recognise the Saviour be a reason to dismiss their faith? Perhaps they aren't wrong - perhaps their Saviour is still to come...THEY believe it, and who are you or I to tell them they're wrong?
Tolerance should extend to allow acknowledgment of others beliefs without judgment, IMHO.
Hi rock chick...there are no laws in Christianity. The only laws are ones which people (sometimes Christians) have made for themselves. Only by God's help can we aspire to live a Christian life, as you say. Christian morality and spirituality are not based on laws and commands, but on grace. I'm not into religion at all.
With regards to the Jews inability to recognise the Saviour...the actual truth is that many jews today are becoming Christians.
Again, I will throw open the challenge for anyone at all to present to me any perceived biblical contradiction and, in return, I will offer the reason for that apparent contradiction.
Meanwhile, if anyone wants to respond to the initial thread discussion, feel free! :)
it just find it sad that people can't converse on an equal level without stooping to disrespect...and thats specifically aimed at you gleeber.Andrew C
Its interesting that you find me discriminatory towards you. I am certainly prejudiced against most bible believing Christians but like you I embrace everybody.
Stooping to disrespect. I dont stoop Andrew. I was down too long to stoop. You come onto a community web site pushing theories of loving Gods and evil demons. Dont be surprised if you get challenged about thiose views. Perhaps your mistaking challenge for disrespect?
My grandfather would be horrified if he knew I was talking to a minister like this. He respected ministers and doctors all his life just because they were ministers or doctors. He never challenged their world view. I do.
Is that so disrespecful?
Andrew C:
"I love the fact that people are open for discussion, it just find it sad that people can't converse on an equal level without stooping to disrespect...and thats specifically aimed at you gleeber."
Come on Andrew; 'disrespect'? I cannot find any disrespect in Gleebers posts, do you mean; 'Disrespect for you, or 'Disrespect' for your religion? - eaither way it has to be earned..
percy toboggan
16-Sep-07, 21:44
Gleeber doesn't do disrespect....and anyway you sound like some pumped up gun toting gangster in 'da hood' .......Disrespect?
Do us all a favour.
Still, at least you spelt it right.
Its interesting that you find me discriminatory towards you. I am certainly prejudiced against most bible believing Christians but like you I embrace everybody.
Stooping to disrespect. I dont stoop Andrew. I was down too long to stoop. You come onto a community web site pushing theories of loving Gods and evil demons. Dont be surprised if you get challenged about thiose views. Perhaps your mistaking challenge for disrespect?
My grandfather would be horrified if he knew I was talking to a minister like this. He respected ministers and doctors all his life just because they were ministers or doctors. He never challenged their world view. I do.
Is that so disrespecful?
awe, i was called anti yet he never bothered to find out anything about me.
actually i agree with most of what you posted and i also believe that one doe,snt have to go to church to be a good christian and i also believe that one doe,snt even have to believe in god or jesus or anything else to be a good person.
i also believe that one doe,snt even have to believe in god or jesus or anything else to be a good person.
And......you don't have to believe in God to be a good christian. So long as you go to church and do all the right things and be generous and stuff, you will have a fulfilled life and everyone will think one is one of God's own flock.
percy toboggan
16-Sep-07, 22:06
And......you don't have to believe in God to be a good christian. So long as you go to church and do all the right things and be generous and stuff, you will have a fulfilled life and everyone will think one is one of God's own flock.
....substitute the word 'christian' for 'person' and I'm with you 100%. I'm not sure how anyone who doesn't believe in the Father, can believe in the Son...., thereby not really qualifying as a 'christian'
....substitute the word 'christian' for 'person' and I'm with you 100%. I'm not sure how anyone who doesn't believe in the Father, can believe in the Son...., thereby not really qualifying as a 'christian'
My point being is that how do we know that any christian actually believes in God/Christ? Do I? Do you? Does the Pope? Many ministers just take up the cloth as a career option anyway. Being christian is a badge anyway, how many fish badges do you see down the motorway, Percy? 'Christian' has a cultural value as well. I'm a Christian, I think he spoke lots of wise words. As a teacher of morality, he was excellent.
TBH, I still occasionally think in terms of there being a God, it is a convenient train of thought, but I realise that that is something that was drummed into me, I probably will never get rid of the last remnant of the brainwashing, luckily I was independent enough to realise it is a load of hogwash, we are so susceptible when young.
helenwyler
16-Sep-07, 22:51
I love the fact that people are open for discussion, it just find it sad that people can't converse on an equal level without stooping to disrespect...and thats specifically aimed at you gleeber.
Andrew C
I haven't registered any 'disrespect' towards you in any of gleeber's posts, Andrew. He /she (sorry gleeber...I just don't know[lol]) has been honest, straightforward and without malice in her/his questioning of your fundamentalist faith....as evidenced in the following quote:
[quote=gleeber;268151]I dont feel that Andrews pushing anything down my throat. I dont feel threatened by Andrew and I'm sure he doesnt feel threatened by me.
Andrews doing what he does best and its not easy but he loves it.:D
quote]
I see no lions rattling your Christian cage here, but might feel like a quick growl tomorrow!
Helen
northener
17-Sep-07, 01:26
Such a lot of conflict over a question about what a religious group could do to help the local community.
I wonder if a similar posting by a Buddist or Sikh voluntary group would result in such levels of vehemence?
More positive sounds about what the SA could do in the local community would be more constructive than theological point scoring. Trouble is, everyone's an expert on theology but no-one apart from people like the SA has the bollards to get out on the street and do something.
I don't agree with Christian teachings, yet i don't feel the need to rip to bits a well respected religious group for a relatively innocuous posting.
Stop squabbling and get out there and do something positive and real if you think you are so smart.
And......you don't have to believe in God to be a good christian. So long as you go to church and do all the right things and be generous and stuff, you will have a fulfilled life and everyone will think one is one of God's own flock.
To be a good Christian you do have to believe in God. You can lead a good Christian lifestyle and eveyone may think of you as "one of God's own flock" but that is not the same thing as being a good Christian. Every good Christian will follow a good Christian lifestyle but not eveyone who follows a good Christian lifestyle is a good Christian.
To be a good Christian you do have to believe in God.
Who is to know? Is the Pope a good Christian? Does he believe in God? Was David Koresh a good christian?:roll:
I still don't think that faith is necessary to be a good christian if my perception of being a christian is based on cultural rather than spiritual lines. And if my perception of what is a christian is wrong then I think it is impossible to know whether any actually truly believes in God or knows what God is without the ability of mind reading powers.
Who is to know? Is the Pope a good Christian? Does he believe in God? Was David Koresh a good christian?:roll:
I still don't think that faith is necessary to be a good christian if my perception of being a christian is based on cultural rather than spiritual lines. And if my perception of what is a christian is wrong then I think it is impossible to know whether any actually truly believes in God or knows what God is without the ability of mind reading powers.
I always understood that faith was the foundation of being a good Christian rather than just living a Christian lifestyle.
Why would you need to know who truly believes in God? If someone says they believe in God and live a Christian lifestyle then they certainly won't be harming anyone so what does it matter if you can prove their faith/belief by mind reading or any other means?
I always understood that faith was the foundation of being a good Christian rather than just living a Christian lifestyle.
Why would you need to know who truly believes in God? If someone says they believe in God and live a Christian lifestyle then they certainly won't be harming anyone so what does it matter if you can prove their faith/belief by mind reading or any other means?
I don't need to know if anyone actually does believe in God to make the assessment that someone is a good christian or not. Likewise, I know that I don't need to believe in god to know that I am being a good christian if all my social/cultural skills and lifestyle is condusive to living in a christian country and in accordance to Christ's moral teachings. I guess I am making the point that it is ok to be a christian just the same as being a buddhist doesn't need to believe that buddha has any deitistic value.
I love the fact that people are open for discussion, it just find it sad that people can't converse on an equal level without stooping to disrespect...and thats specifically aimed at you gleeber.
Andrew C
First of all, people, an apology.
The last part of that sentence was supposed to read 'and thats NOT specifically aimed at you gleeber.
In general though, respect in my mind is about listening to opinions and beliefs and while being 100% free to disagree with them still honouring the person that represents them. I feel that that is not respect you have to earn, we all deserve that, don't we?
I don't expect to be automatically worth of any other respect simply because I'm a Salvation Army officer...at the end of the day I'm a regular bloke with wife, kids, dog and garden fence.
And remember...The Salvation Army puts the 'fun' back into fundamentalist!
The goodness that God expects amounts to moral perfection. This is the level of goodness that is necessary for inheriting eternal life (the Bible says.) The point is, as I've said before, is that none of us can achieve this on our own.
IF God will judge us, and I'm only saying IF (I'm certain of it, you may not be), the way he will do it is by the standard of the Ten Commandments. The commandments are in essence impossible to keep perfectly...their purpose is to show us our need for a way out. Lets look at them:
Is God first in your life, do you love him with all you hear, mind soul and strength? Have you made a god to suit yourself and your sins? Have you taken the Lord’s name in vain? Have you kept the Sabbath holy, have you honoured your parents? Have you ever hated anyone and therefore committed murder in your heart? Have you looked with lust and therefore committed adultery of the heart? Have you lied (incuding fibs), stolen (the value of the item is not important) or coveted someone else’s possessions?
If we are all honest, we will know that we have failed in at least one of these points. James says if we are guilty of breaking the law at even one point, we have broken it all. This is what it means to fall short of God’s glory. If we are honest, we will all be guilty on Judgement day. In that sense, none of us are good.
God, however, doesn’t want to send you to hell. Jesus suffered and died on the cross so you could go free. That’s how much God loves you. We broke God’s law, Jesus paid the fine. Then he rose from the grave, defeating death. If we repent of our sin and trust in Him to save us, God will forgive your sin and grant you ever lasting life. We don’t just believe in a parachute to save us if were jumping out a plane, we must actually put it on. Paul instructs us to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so that when we jump into eternity we can find security and salvation in him.
So, if we are talking about 'good' Christian, goodness is something that comes from outwith us. And, because this goodness comes from outwith us, then one can only be a true, authentic Christian if you have been made new by the Holy Spirit. You will have heard the phrase ‘born again’ – this basically means that your old nature has been made righteous because you have accepted Jesus payment of you fine and the Holy Spirit has come into your life and given you a good clean up, a new heart,new desires and a new direction. The bible says that anyone who does not have this experience is not a Christian. They may be Christian by name, but not by nature.
There in lies the complication of Christianity in a supposed ‘Christian’ country. When the gospel message of the bible is explained like I have just done, it seems extreme & fundamental simply because Christianity has become a moral code as opposed to the life changing experience that it actually is. The bible says that the gospel is foolishness to those who don’t believe, but to those who have been saved it’s the ‘water of life’ (you can keep yer Glen Morangie lol)
[FONT="]Is God first in your life, do you love him with all you hear, mind soul and strength? Have you made a god to suit yourself and your sins? Have you taken the Lord’s name in vain? Have you kept the Sabbath holy, have you honoured your parents? Have you ever hated anyone and therefore committed murder in your heart? Have you looked with lust and therefore committed adultery of the heart? Have you lied (incuding fibs), stolen (the value of the item is not important) or coveted someone else’s possessions?
I see a perfect recipe for a mode of life that is in accordance with living in small groups, a modus operandi that provided the perfect scenario for early human evolution.
All your post is your and some other's take on what is a christian or not, but not everyones, it also neither vaildates the existence of God but it does echo the validity of morality which is the basic code for successful group bonding and survival.
rockchick
17-Sep-07, 11:37
Hi rock chick...there are no laws in Christianity. The only laws are ones which people (sometimes Christians) have made for themselves. Only by God's help can we aspire to live a Christian life, as you say. Christian morality and spirituality are not based on laws and commands, but on grace. I'm not into religion at all.
With regards to the Jews inability to recognise the Saviour...the actual truth is that many jews today are becoming Christians.
Again, I will throw open the challenge for anyone at all to present to me any perceived biblical contradiction and, in return, I will offer the reason for that apparent contradiction.
Meanwhile, if anyone wants to respond to the initial thread discussion, feel free! :)
Well, first of all, I put laws into quotes ("laws") as I'm well aware of the difference...but interesting you speak of the Commandments as though they are laws (re msg #98 of this thread)...?
Your point about some Jews converting to Christianity does not address the point that the Jewish faith system is as valid as Christianity; it's just different. (pssst: I understand some Christians have converted to Judaism!)
I've posted a list of Biblical contradictions elsewhere on this board, so don't really want to repeat them...but am happy to discuss with you if you wish.
And...I DID respond to your initial thread discussion...and I suppose you've answered it! SA isn't interested in open discussions about religions in order to promote tolerance and overcome ignorance, apparently. Too bad.
Well, first of all, I put laws into quotes ("laws") as I'm well aware of the difference...but interesting you speak of the Commandments as though they are laws (re msg #98 of this thread)...?
Your point about some Jews converting to Christianity does not address the point that the Jewish faith system is as valid as Christianity; it's just different. (pssst: I understand some Christians have converted to Judaism!)
I've posted a list of Biblical contradictions elsewhere on this board, so don't really want to repeat them...but am happy to discuss with you if you wish.
And...I DID respond to your initial thread discussion...and I suppose you've answered it! SA isn't interested in open discussions about religions in order to promote tolerance and overcome ignorance, apparently. Too bad.
Yes, The Ten Commandments are laws but the Christian is no longer under the law, but under grace. The law is intented to point a person in the direction of the cross and it can chase them no further because Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law...as in, he provides all the 'goodness' the law requires of us.
Of course Judaism is valid...it is the first part of God's revelation to humankind, but its not the ending point, according to the bible.
As I've mentioned before, we are absolutely against intolerance and injustice of any kind. I'll fully support 100% the muslims right to be a muslim, the Jews right to be a Jew and the Buddhists right to be a Buddhist but that does not mean that I accept them as religions that ultimately lead to eternal life because the message of the bible precludes this view...Jesus said that he was the only way to the Father.
The Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Jew would have the same position of Christianity, if not much more severe.
I can no more lay aside my belief that Jesus is the only way to God than you can lay aside your belief that all religions lead to God. Suppose were at stalemate.
As I've mentioned before, we are absolutely against intolerance and injustice of any kind. I'll fully support 100% the muslims right to be a muslim, the Jews right to be a Jew and the Buddhists right to be a Buddhist but that does not mean that I accept them as religions that ultimately lead to eternal life because the message of the bible precludes this view...Jesus said that he was the only way to the Father..
The bible also says that only 144000 jews will enter heaven. You are too late my friend....
I see a perfect recipe for a mode of life that is in accordance with living in small groups, a modus operandi that provided the perfect scenario for early human evolution.
All your post is your and some other's take on what is a christian or not, but not everyones, it also neither vaildates the existence of God but it does echo the validity of morality which is the basic code for successful group bonding and survival.
1) The post is what the bible defines as a Christian. Any serious reader of it could not conclude anything else.
2)That code you identify is indeed the code for the perfect human scenario...they are, of course, the Ten Commandments...the law which the bible says God has written on the hearts of all mankind. They are the moral absolutes that almost everyone, faith or none, assent to as things which define right for wrong.
When we go against one of these, we know it straight away unless we've dulled the voice of our conscience. You would say you have your conscience because of human conditioning, cultural defining. I would say it is God given. The punishment for breaking these laws is, according to the bible, death. The crucifixion happened to satisfy the justice of God that demands just that - justice.
If the conscience is man-made and culturally defined, then firstly, we have to account for the fact that the vast majority of society in the world have these 'laws' at their core.
Secondly, we have to revied our justice system because we'd have to let off every murderer, every theif, every adulterer because it would be plausible to say 'I didn't know about murder being wrong due to my cultural conditioning.' The truth is that we all have a knowledge of right and wrong...our conscience speaks to us all...we either listen to it or reject it.
The bible also says that only 144000 jews will enter heaven. You are too late my friend....
The bible does not say this.
The book of Revelation where you get your information from is a genre of literature called 'apocalyptic' - in other words, it is encoded imagery. It is picture language. It was written like this because the author was being held captive for his Christian faith and so wrote so that his captors wouldn't understand him.
The number 144000 is symbolic of all God's people in heaven in perfection and it is arrived at with this formula: 12 represents the 12 tribes of Israel (all the saved Jews), another 12 represents the 12 apostles (and all the saved gentiles). Times 12 by 12 and you get 144. Times that by 1000 (the numerical symbol of perfect completion 10x10x10) and you basically have the idea that the 144000 are in fact all Jews and Gentiles who have been saved.
Just like today, we wouldn't read/interpret a poem in the same way we read history, in the same way we read a novel, in the same way we'd read a newspaper, in the same way we'd read an instruction manual.
The bible is full of different types of literature which can't all be read in the same way. Poetry, history, instruction, prophecy, apocalypse, parable, etc etc
Hope that helps
The punishment for breaking these laws is, according to the bible, death.
The end result of life, whether you are a bible basher, died-in-the-wool atheist or an amoeba is the same, death. I wouldn't assume for one second that an amoeba has broken one of the ten commandments. [lol][lol]
The end result of life, whether you are a bible basher, died-in-the-wool atheist or an amoeba is the same, death. I wouldn't assume for one second that an amoeba has broken one of the ten commandments. [lol][lol]
You are right....10/10 die, we are all part of the ultimate statistic. The bible says the day has been appointed for a man/women to die and after that, the judgement. Obviously, if you don't beleive in God that won't be in your thoughts. It doesnt mean that it won't happen just because you dont believe it.
I might chose not to believe in trucks, but if i stand out on the road in front of one I'd change my mind...then I will have experienced a truck!
The bible does not say this.
The book of Revelation where you get your information from is a genre of literature called 'apocalyptic' - in other words, it is encoded imagery. It is picture language. It was written like this because the author was being held captive for his Christian faith and so wrote so that his captors wouldn't understand him.
The number 144000 is symbolic of all God's people in heaven in perfection and it is arrived at with this formula: 12 represents the 12 tribes of Israel (all the saved Jews), another 12 represents the 12 apostles (and all the saved gentiles). Times 12 by 12 and you get 144. Times that by 1000 (the numerical symbol of perfect completion 10x10x10) and you basically have the idea that the 144000 are in fact all Jews and Gentiles who have been saved.
Just like today, we wouldn't read/interpret a poem in the same way we read history, in the same way we read a novel, in the same way we'd read a newspaper, in the same way we'd read an instruction manual.
The bible is full of different types of literature which can't all be read in the same way. Poetry, history, instruction, prophecy, apocalypse, parable, etc etc
Hope that helps
Yes it does say that only 144000 will enter heaven, no other interpretation is required. But since God is supposed to be perfection and that He supposedly provided the inspiration for men to write it then the words should be perfect also. The trouble is it isn't, it isn't even close, hence all the imperfections and contradictions. You can argue that black is white all you like, you can say it till you are blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that the Bible is seriously factually flawed.
It doesnt mean that it won't happen just because you dont believe it.
The flipside of which is, just because you believe in God and an afterlife doesn't mean there is one. Therefore, having reasoned it through without any evidence to the contrary, I would say that there isn't, in fact I haven't seen any evidence for God at all. Don't you think it is reasonable to have solid hard evidence to substantiate one's beliefs. Or is faith a form of insanity?:confused
Shabbychic
17-Sep-07, 15:28
As I've mentioned before, we are absolutely against intolerance and injustice of any kind. I'll fully support 100% the muslims right to be a muslim, the Jews right to be a Jew and the Buddhists right to be a Buddhist but that does not mean that I accept them as religions that ultimately lead to eternal life because the message of the bible precludes this view...Jesus said that he was the only way to the Father.
The Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Jew would have the same position of Christianity, if not much more severe.
Buddhism is not a religion that ultimately leads to eternal life.
Since Buddhism in general does not believe in a God or divine being, it does not have worship, praying, or praising of a divine being. It offers no form of redemption, forgiveness, heavenly hope, or final judgment. Buddhism is, therefore, more of a moral philosophy, an ethical way of life, and is not a religion as such.
The Buddhist system is a non-theistic ethical discipline, a system of self training, anthropocentric, stressing ethics and mind-culture to the exclusion of theology.
This post started by Andrew asking about what the Church could do in communities and has mostly ended up in theological debate. Isn’t it strange that all the good things that the Salvation Army do for people (whether they “believe” or not) is not really considered. Now it is a message board and a good bit of lively debate is healthy – but I just wonder why there is so much anti-Christian sentiment? If I use the analogy of other non-religious charities I don’t see people questioning their ethics and beliefs the same. The view of some is that Christian organizations do no good, because at their core they believe in the Bible, for me I take what I like and leave the bits I disagree with.
This post started by Andrew asking about what the Church could do in communities and has mostly ended up in theological debate. Isn’t it strange that all the good things that the Salvation Army do for people (whether they “believe” or not) is not really considered. Now it is a message board and a good bit of lively debate is healthy – but I just wonder why there is so much anti-Christian sentiment? If I use the analogy of other non-religious charities I don’t see people questioning their ethics and beliefs the same. The view of some is that Christian organizations do no good, because at their core they believe in the Bible, for me I take what I like and leave the bits I disagree with.
I am not against religion, I am just for freedom of thought, reason etc. Religion stands for none of those things by careful use of manipulative language by its messengers, Andrew demonstrates that ability effortlessly btw. I recognise that religions are on the whole a good thing and they provide welfare both mentally, spiritually and physically for those that won't/can't think for themselves due to cultural and educational-deficient circumstances. However, I am of the opinion that rejection of faith provides the first step into seeing a wider universe in all its spectacle. A universe that can be touched, enjoyed, observed and understood, a universe that gave birth to life and we are the ultimate product of its own creation.
I am not against religion, I am just for freedom of thought, reason etc. Religion stands for none of those things by careful use of manipulative language by its messengers, Andrew demonstrates that ability effortlessly btw. I recognise that religions are on the whole a good thing and they provide welfare both mentally, spiritually and physically for those that won't/can't think for themselves due to cultural and educational-deficient circumstances. However, I am of the opinion that rejection of faith provides the first step into seeing a wider universe in all its spectacle. A universe that can be touched, enjoyed and observed, a universe that gave birth to life and we are the ultimate product of its own creation.
Not often do I agree with you Rheghead, but this post is beautifully expressed and has my total agreement.
Andrew C, I think the church.......any church....should be doing what it can to help the disadvantaged, whether that be the down and outs, disaffected youth etc.
What I don't think it should be doing is using their charitable actions to give them the opportunity to proselytize.
Imo, having to sit through prayer, Christian songs etc as a prerequisite of accessing the help may well turn people off.
Such a pity that churches can't just do good for the sake of doing good, and trust that their Christian example will encourage those they help to take an interest in what they have to offer.
Rheghead: "I am not against religion, I am just for freedom of thought, reason etc. Religion stands for none of those things by careful use of manipulative language by its messengers, Andrew demonstrates that ability effortlessly btw. I recognise that religions are on the whole a good thing and they provide welfare both mentally, spiritually and physically for those that won't/can't think for themselves due to cultural and educational-deficient circumstances. However, I am of the opinion that rejection of faith provides the first step into seeing a wider universe in all its spectacle. A universe that can be touched, enjoyed and observed, a universe that gave birth to life and we are the ultimate product of its own creation."
like Gleber2, Absolutely agree with you!
Having read all the posts(an that needs a medal)not enough credit being given (nor asked)for the never ending support the sa gives to the really down an outs in life,an its all one way traffic-the unfortunates don't sign up or make promises-the army lads an lasses are always there.
Love your baby song theme Andrew,catch em young,worked for me:)
Andrew C, I think the church.......any church....should be doing what it can to help the disadvantaged, whether that be the down and outs, disaffected youth etc.
What I don't think it should be doing is using their charitable actions to give them the opportunity to proselytize.
Imo, having to sit through prayer, Christian songs etc as a prerequisite of accessing the help may well turn people off.
Such a pity that churches can't just do good for the sake of doing good, and trust that their Christian example will encourage those they help to take an interest in what they have to offer.
People aren't made sit through anything for help. This isn't the victorian era.
Buddhism is not a religion that ultimately leads to eternal life.
Since Buddhism in general does not believe in a God or divine being, it does not have worship, praying, or praising of a divine being. It offers no form of redemption, forgiveness, heavenly hope, or final judgment. Buddhism is, therefore, more of a moral philosophy, an ethical way of life, and is not a religion as such.
The Buddhist system is a non-theistic ethical discipline, a system of self training, anthropocentric, stressing ethics and mind-culture to the exclusion of theology.
OK, we'll let Buddhism off the hook on your terms. :)
The flipside of which is, just because you believe in God and an afterlife doesn't mean there is one. Therefore, having reasoned it through without any evidence to the contrary, I would say that there isn't, in fact I haven't seen any evidence for God at all. Don't you think it is reasonable to have solid hard evidence to substantiate one's beliefs. Or is faith a form of insanity?:confused
Your flip-side seems weak to me and mine to you...there is a stalemate there.
My faith is founded on the most secure foundations that there can be...the evidence of God moving in my life, the change in my life and the change I've witnessed in others, the soundness and coherent nature of the bible, the things I've seen God do, and creation itself. The existance of the common universal human conscience, the knowledge of right and wrong....
I didn't pop out of my mothers womb in a Salvation Army uniform (probably a good thing for her)...the first 15 years of my life were in a totally non-churchy family...my parents still dont darken the door unless its a funeral wedding or some other occassion, like many people. This isn't human conditioning speaking. I never darkened the door of a church myself and was a regular teenager into girls, drinking behind the bike shed, gambling and pretty much everything else Ayrshire lads did!
At the age of 15 God entered into my life in a powerful way and transformed it in ways I'd never have imagined possible. I didn't simply enter a 'vacuum' of belief and blind faith, but into the realm of experience which produced faith, although far from blind.
Wick Salvation Army corps is the third 'church' that I've led (we move around quicker than most ministers in churches). Between those three situations I've seen God do things that don't happen naturally or normally. God confirms the message and the works of the bible in the lives of people every day.
This is why it is not reasonable for me to argue otherwise, do you see where I am coming from?
I recognise that religions are on the whole a good thing and they provide welfare both mentally, spiritually and physically for those that won't/can't think for themselves due to cultural and educational-deficient circumstances.
That is the most rediculous statement I've read in this whole thread. You are implying that the only people that could possibly embrace the message of the gospel are thick or social misfits. If you are not saying that, what are you saying?
If you are saying that, are you somehow suggesting that you are somewhat more socially adjusted and more thoroughly educated than a whole third of the current population of the world who embrace Christianity? Are you ignoring the fact that many of the greatest people who have and are shaping this world in which we live are Christians?
Certainly, The Salvation Army care for the poor and every sort of 'misfortunate' you can get and many people, as a result of that care, see God in action and join our ranks. But you will actually find that the vast majority of people who put a Salvation Army uniform on their back are made up of professionals: doctors, professors, laywers, scientists, teachers, highly skilled engineers, businessmen, nurses.... In at least two countries, there are presidents and vice presedents who are Salvationist, let alone the amount of other Christians out there. The current international leader (General) of The Salvation Army holds two doctorates, law degrees as well as theology degrees.
If you are saying that, are you somehow suggesting that you are somewhat more socially adjusted and more thoroughly educated than a whole third of the current population of the world who embrace Christianity? Are you ignoring the fact that many of the greatest people who have and are shaping this world in which we live are Christians?
Andrew,
The last four posts on this thread have been by, you, you, you and surprise surprise..you!
Ever feel that you are talking to yourself?
karia
Yes it does say that only 144000 will enter heaven, no other interpretation is required. But since God is supposed to be perfection and that He supposedly provided the inspiration for men to write it then the words should be perfect also. The trouble is it isn't, it isn't even close, hence all the imperfections and contradictions. You can argue that black is white all you like, you can say it till you are blue in the face, it doesn't change the fact that the Bible is seriously factually flawed.
Here is an example where you have rejected a perfectly thorough explanation of a biblical text and you've dismissed it from a position of your own bias. You don't see because you don't want to admit that there is even 0.01% chance that you may be even remotely wrong. I openly confess that there are many things I don't know...and certainly much more I don't know about things I haven't studied thoroughly.
However, the text of the bible is something I have studied from an academic point of view as well as a 'Christian' point of view. There is not one apparent biblical 'flaw' that doesn't have a logical explanation and that cannot be explained with closer reference to the text and other evidence available (such as non-biblical historial texts).
Your flip-side seems weak to me and mine to you...there is a stalemate there.
My faith is founded on the most secure foundations that there can be...the evidence of God moving in my life, the change in my life and the change I've witnessed in others, the soundness and coherent nature of the bible, the things I've seen God do, and creation itself. The existance of the common universal human conscience, the knowledge of right and wrong....?
No there isn't a stalemate because my view is reason/evidence-based, yours is faith-based. My view is dynamic, the universe continues to evolve by expansion, yours world is static, an axiom. Your creation has ended, mine hasn't.
The common knowledge of right and wrong is hard-wired into the human concienceness because morality is essential to human development, as it is also hard-wired in other animals.
The other changes that you describe are attributable to endorphins causing euphoria. Endorphins are only the same as any other drug which can induce a euphoric state of mind, you were deluded into thinking that it was the work of God. You are not the first to be deluded and you won't be the last.
A common example would be remote probabilities of something that can happen, ironically, the legal phrase is an Act-of-God. Small probabilities, no matter how remote, do happen, that is a mathematical certainty, but the effect of such happening on the individual can be interpreted as a religious experience.
Here is an example where you have rejected a perfectly thorough explanation of a biblical text and you've dismissed it from a position of your own bias. You don't see because you don't want to admit that there is even 0.01% chance that you may be even remotely wrong.
Here is the weakness in your entire view, iow there is a totally absence of reason within it, you would hang on to the 0.01% chance that you are right when faced with the 99.99% chance that you are wrong. On the balance of probabilities, I have the stronger arguement by your own assertions, even though you don't want to admit that there is even 99.99% chance that you may be even remotely wrong.;)
Andrew,
The last four posts on this thread have been by, you, you, you and surprise surprise..you!
Ever feel that you are talking to yourself?
karia
Hear Hear !!! at last
Here is the weakness in your entire view, iow there is a totally absence of reason within it, you would hang on to the 0.01% chance that you are right when faced with the 99.99% chance that you are wrong. On the balance of probabilities, I have the stronger arguement by your own assertions, even though you don't want to admit that there is even 99.99% chance that you may be even remotely wrong.;)
I've said before on this forum that if I am 100% wrong about my assertions I have abolutely nothing to lose...I'll have lived a good life in the service of others. If I'm wrong, then you've nothing to lose either.
If however, I am right, you've everything to lose by your rejection of the gospel.
That is the most rediculous statement I've read in this whole thread. You are implying that the only people that could possibly embrace the message of the gospel are thick or social misfits. If you are not saying that, what are you saying?
It is based in evidence that atheists tend to be more intelligent, better educated and more coherently responsive to differing points of view....;)
Andrew,
The last four posts on this thread have been by, you, you, you and surprise surprise..you!
Ever feel that you are talking to yourself?
karia
I talk to myself all the time...I don't get any trouble with myself :)
Nah...you'll note I'm writing in reply to people's comments and questions. If I didn't answer them I'd be accused of backing down and that wouldn't be my intention...
changilass
18-Sep-07, 00:20
If you are right and I have a lot to loose it doesnt say an awful lot for your ever loving god does it, just cos I won't believe unquestioningly I go to hell but a murderer who has turned to god gets a pair of fairy wings
I've said before on this forum that if I am 100% wrong about my assertions I have abolutely nothing to lose...I'll have lived a good life in the service of others. If I'm wrong, then you've nothing to lose either.
If however, I am right, you've everything to lose by your rejection of the gospel.
Another example of irrational, we-have-your-afterlife-over-a-barrel, manipulative arguement that will farm the attentions of the vulnerable. Pathetic....
If you are right and I have a lot to loose it doesnt say an awful lot for your ever loving god does it, just cos I won't believe unquestioningly I go to hell but a murderer who has turned to god gets a pair of fairy wings
No-one said anything about 'unquestioningly' - I've tonnes of questions.
We all assume that other people's shortcomings are worse than ours. As I've said before, the goodness that God is looking for is moral perfection...we can't acheive that, not even Mother Theresa. God is as much a God of justice as a God of love. If you take justice out you have murderers going to heaven with fairy wings. The most loving thing that God has done is provide us ALL with the opportunity of mercy provided through the death of Jesus on the cross. All sin, no matter how little or how apparently serious has been dealt with....even the worst possible 'sin' can be pardoned.
You have the same offer held out to you that your murderer does. The gospel is for everyone, even me.
changilass
18-Sep-07, 00:30
Thanks for the offer but I think I'll pass
No-one said anything about 'unquestioningly' - I've tonnes of questions.
We all assume that other people's shortcomings are worse than ours. As I've said before, the goodness that God is looking for is moral perfection...we can't acheive that, not even Mother Theresa. God is as much a God of justice as a God of love. If you take justice out you have murderers going to heaven with fairy wings. The most loving thing that God has done is provide us ALL with the opportunity of mercy provided through the death of Jesus on the cross. All sin, no matter how little or how apparently serious has been dealt with....even the worst possible 'sin' can be pardoned.
You have the same offer held out to you that your murderer does. The gospel is for everyone, even me.
As mentioned before, so effortlessly done.:roll:
Have we not just about had enough of this subject and just all agree to differ whatever one believes in it is up to the individual and very personal
everyone of us have our own thoughts on the subject and it is human nature to disagree be awful if we were all the same thank goodness !!!! we are not the same each to there own I say
Another example of irrational, we-have-your-afterlife-over-a-barrel, manipulative arguement that will farm the attentions of the vulnerable. Pathetic....
My arguement was logical...if I'm wrong we both lose nothing, if I'm right you lose everything. I'll give you an extra mile and say that maybe the muslim is right....again, in both cases we're stuffed. Maybe the Buddhist is right and our quality of life could be better enhanced, but in the end we still lose nothing.
We can't both be right. Maybe neither of us is right? But what other conclusion am I supposed to make? Your conclusion?
I'd never accuse you of being pathetic as I see you are a man (?) who is committed to his opinion and expresses them well. You put your arguments across with the same supposed 'manipulation' as you accuse me of. The gospel may well be foolishness to you but that in no way shakes my confidence in it. My logic, reason, experience, study and learning does not allow it. This is why, in the end, we don't really have much else to discuss because we've come to the bottom line.
You have yours that totally denegrates Christianity and everything associated with it as rubbish and pathetic, and I have mine this still says there is a hope for all of us, even me, even you. Your philosophy is static, an axiom...mine is still creating new people, new wonder, a new sense of being alive, a fresh amazement at the creative power of God, an exciting anticipation of what he will do next...and all this, every day!
oh Right !! Boring -----------------now
changilass
18-Sep-07, 00:49
I actually prefer Terry Pratchett's idea in his Discworld books, basically it boils down to the fact that what happens to you after you die is what you believe will happen, so you get to go to heaven Andrew and I get to spend eternity on a carribean island and we all win:D
hear hear again !!!Changi
Have we not just about had enough of this subject and just all agree to differ whatever one believes in it is up to the individual and very personal
everyone of us have our own thoughts on the subject and it is human nature to disagree be awful if we were all the same thank goodness !!!! we are not the same each to there own I say
Hi Anne...I had enough of it before it started, but wouldn't want to avoid anyone's questions. I'm sure those who are still interested are reading on and that those who aren't aren't.
Sure, we all have our own thoughts, but sometimes its in discussing those thoughts we learn something new or think about our own views in a different light. That is certainly my experience.
Sorry to bore you! Thanks for your comments.
whatever one believes in it is up to the individual and very personal everyone of us have our own thoughts on the subject and it is human nature to disagree be awful if we were all the same thank goodness !!!! we are not the same each to there own I say
I am sorry but I do not agree with you within the format of the messageboard, Andrew_C knew exactly what he was getting into and I and others have replied, it is a totally indulgent activity on all our parts. For me these threads are just a bit of fun, the same(I have assumed) is not the same for Andrew_C and his ilk. They need to defend their views in the face of overwhelming evidence that the Bible is just plain wrong, I alone can understand and identify with the need to defend that one's life has not been a lie. In scientific development, old theories are superceded by new compelling ones, I still understand that old science stalwarts want to hang on to their old theories, it is just human nature.
However, in the real world, my christian-based sense of sensibility will preclude myself of having a face to face discussion with Andrew_C because I hate confrontation. It is not that I am a coward to it, it is just that my own morality prevents me from upsetting another person to their face.
I actually prefer Terry Pratchett's idea in his Discworld books, basically it boils down to the fact that what happens to you after you die is what you believe will happen, so you get to go to heaven Andrew and I get to spend eternity on a carribean island and we all win:D
I certainly wouldnt chose the carribean..too warm. What about some tropical Caithness weather? Lovely lol :)
basically it boils down to the fact that what happens to you after you die is what you believe will happen,
Never fear my friends, for if you wake up and find the Sun in your face then you are in Allisium and you are already dead, what we do in life echoes in Eternity!:)
Sorry, a quote from the Gladiator.:o
I am sorry but I do not agree with you within the format of the messageboard, Andrew_C knew exactly what he was getting into and I and others have replied, it is a totally indulgent activity on all our parts. For me these threads are just a bit of fun, the same(I have assumed) is not the same for Andrew_C and his ilk. They need to defend their views in the face of overwhelming evidence that the Bible is just plain wrong, I alone can understand and identify with the need to defend that one's life has not been a lie. In scientifiv development, old theories are superceded by new compelling ones, I still understand that old science stalwarts want to hang on to their old theories, it is just human nature.
However, in the real world, my christian-based sense of sensibility will preclude myself of having a face to face discussion with Andrew_C because I hate confrontation. It is not that I am a coward to it, it is just that my own morality prevents me from upsetting another person to their face.
I don't need to be on here having these conversations and they are ones many a Christian (including ones who read these pages) would chose not to get involved in. You assume I get involved from a place of weakness and the need to defend my false sense of reality. I'd say I enter into them from a place of absolute confidence and its exactly why I'm here at 00.54 answering them inspite of the fact I've got a plane to catch in the morning! They are, as you say, more serious for me because they are life and death. As for you, I'm glad your enjoying yourself :)
Andrew I dont mean to offend but a very long but -----------each to there own I have very good friends who are christians some are not I dont treat them or them me any differently we all do good works quietly in our own wee worlds as individuals is that wrong ? just because we are not a members of a institution or church we are labelled just like them that do go every sunday and create havoc the next 6 days of the week enough !!!
You assume I get involved from a place of weakness and the need to defend my false sense of reality.
No assumption necessary. The balance of probability is 99.99-0.01 against(I'd say even more improbable tbh), it is weak by your own admission, even Richard Dawkins admits that the possible existence of God is real but extremely improbable Enjoy your flight!;)
Andrew I dont mean to offend but a very long but -----------each to there own I have very good friends who are christians some are not I dont treat them or them me any differently we all do good works quietly in our own wee worlds as individuals is that wrong ? just because we are not a members of a institution or church we are labelled just like them that do go every sunday and create havoc the next 6 days of the week enough !!!
There is never anything wrong with doing good and there is never anything wrong with belonging or not belonging to a church. This is actually a discussion about what the church can practically be doing in the community that has got rather side-tracked by the exact thing you are arguing for...letting people express their beliefs in the way that they feel they should.
Sorry, I'm not sure what you meant by the last bit of your last sentence though, so I won't say anything about it.
No assumption necessary. The balance of probability is 99.99-0.01 against(I'd say even more improbable tbh), it is weak by your own admission, even Richard Dawkins admits that the possible existence of God is real but extremely improbable Enjoy your flight!;)
If I make the statement 'there is no gold in China' in order to back it up I have to check every rock, every square inch, every chinaman's mouth, every shop, jeweller etc etc...I can't definitively say that there is no gold in China. I have no proof for that.
However, I can difinitively say that there IS gold in China and all I have to do to prove it is find one peice of evidence.
Over 3 billion Christians in the world, the impact of Christianity and Judaism since their beginnings, and creation itself is more than one piece of evidence.
The fact is that you cannot say that there is no God. In your experience so far there is no God, nothing you say that could be remotely explained as God although you do admit a slight possibility. My experience tells me every minute that God is real.
I'd suggest that you weren't an atheist. You are an agnostic. You don't know if there is a God or not.
Just to say I'm off to bed and that my flight tomorrow is taking me to give evidence in a court case so I may be gone some time, depending on how things are proceeding. I'll respond to any comments when I get back
Thanks for your posts
Andrew C
I'd suggest that you weren't an atheist. You are an agnostic. You don't know if there is a God or not.
You are probably correct to a certain degree, I am open minded, if I see any evidence that there is a God. Like all scientific thought processes, we can hypothesise all we want, but evidence is needed, you haven't any, and even in the light of the huge contradictory evdence , you won't accept the huge possibility that there isn't a God in the Christian sense. If you are looking for a Creator as such then there is one, the Universe itself. You are better off following an animist religion and following the Great God Universe, you are part of it and all you see around you, even them pesky endorphins that I refer to so much....Maybe the Pagans were right all a long?
C'mon Andrew .. Are you seriously suggesting that if the Salavation Army disappeared tomorrow we would enter some huge social chasm ?? .. :eek:
The Salavation Army is obviously a major part of your life and undoubtedly it does do good work. That last comment is in no way a personal dig at you but I find your assumption about the Salvation Army a bit .. erm .. ambitious shall we say.
I am not a church goer and proably close to being a non-believer. However, the work of the Salvation Army is UK and Worldwide and a great comfort and invaluable in helping and supporting people in all sorts of distress. It also does work that otherwise would be state funded and affecting the cost of living of us all through higher taxation.
While there are many churches whose demise would not be missed by any of us the Salvation Army does work that would impinge upon us all if it were to stop.
helenwyler
18-Sep-07, 10:42
It also does work that otherwise would be state funded and affecting the cost of living of us all through higher taxation.
Hi Cattach
The Sally Army is well known, but there are many other charities doing similar things in the homelessness and rehabilitation area.
Centrepoint, Shelter, Crisis, Big Issue, Emmaus are the big national ones.
Thames Reach and St Mungo's do fantastic work in London, and there are many other excellent regional charities.
They receive some money from government, but much of it comes from grant-making trusts such as the Baring Foundation, Sainsbury Family Charitable Trusts, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation etc............and corporate charity fundraisers such as StreetSmart and Crash.
The Sally Army couldn't possibly cope with all the long and short term needs of the vulnerable in our society. It's probably a little naive to connect their existence with your tax rate;).
Interesting Thread this one.
Note that Andrew C speaks of Rheghead: "I'd suggest that you weren't an atheist. You are an agnostic. You don't know if there is a God or not". Of course; 'Atheism is the state either of being without theistic beliefs, or of actively disbelieving in the existence of deities'.
As Andrew C. knows I PM'd him on the 12th, basically to tell him I admired the SA's work, that I'd been doing good works myself and had certainly saved many 'souls' - finished off by giving a quick resume was I was an Atheist, suppose might be a pointer to why I never had a reply - but that's water under the bridge..
However I find Alfred Ramshaw's words: "Let me just clarify something here. I am proudly an Atheist, but I am not willing to take the extremely patronising view that some do of ignoring religion as important because they see religious belief as just superstitious nonsense, and anyone who falls for it must be stupid. There are extremely intelligent people who for their own personal reasons are religious, and who am I to talk about intolerance if I wont even acknowledge that religion is important." so am a bit different too?
What I do find incredible is Andrews statement: "At the age of 15 God entered into my life in a powerful way and transformed it in ways I'd never have imagined possible." '15'! At 15 we're adolescents, impressionably un-informed, un-opinionated teenagers!
At 15 I was a church-goer, I was in the Church choir, I attended church service twice every Sunday, but moving outside of that cosy domain into the great big wide world and seeing life as it is, bought me back to reality with a bump. At 18 I was personally experiencing the full horror of war, seeing broken bodies, detached limbs, ripped apart children; where was this "little children come unto me"?.. decades of my life in witnessing pointless suffering, the totally futile waste of life, where was God in all this? I found my 'belief' in this way. And ever since I have found no reason whatsoever to think otherwise.
Continue your good works Andrew, but many other organisation do such work without their God being omnipresent..
I know you are away, but connection to the net is universal.
I'd suggest that you weren't an atheist. You are an agnostic. You don't know if there is a God or not.
If an atheist is presented with absolute proof that God exists he would be a fool to continue disbelief. If a Christian has it proved beyond doubt that God does not exist he would be a fool to continue believing. Therefore, we are all agnostics. QED
Hi Cattach
The Sally Army is well known, but there are many other charities doing similar things in the homelessness and rehabilitation area.
Centrepoint, Shelter, Crisis, Big Issue, Emmaus are the big national ones.
Thames Reach and St Mungo's do fantastic work in London, and there are many other excellent regional charities.
They receive some money from government, but much of it comes from grant-making trusts such as the Baring Foundation, Sainsbury Family Charitable Trusts, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation etc............and corporate charity fundraisers such as StreetSmart and Crash.
The Sally Army couldn't possibly cope with all the long and short term needs of the vulnerable in our society. It's probably a little naive to connect their existence with your tax rate;).
The point was in reply to the Salvation Army Question and not related to the existence or otherwise of many other good charities.
Naive I certainly am not - I know full well the cost to the state that would be incurred by many individual cases that were taken on by 'The Army' before it got to a situation where 'you and I' would have to foot the bill.
I guess being Naive is not too much of a problem - I might have been naive and short sighted!!
If I make the statement 'there is no gold in China' in order to back it up I have to check every rock, every square inch, every chinaman's mouth, every shop, jeweller etc etc...I can't definitively say that there is no gold in China. I have no proof for that.
However, I can difinitively say that there IS gold in China and all I have to do to prove it is find one peice of evidence.
The fact is we can go to China and look for gold, I can actually go there and check under every rock etc and give you a definitive answer, yes or no. As soon as science discovers a new frontier where God may exist and find nothing spiritual eg. the Higgs boson or or echoes from outside the Universe then theologists will alter the goal posts so that God is unavailable for comment. In other words, the Church keeps the monopoly on God and all that money through donations and stuff...
It is based in evidence that atheists tend to be more intelligent, better educated and more coherently responsive to differing points of view....;)
What evidence is that?
Most of the older thinkers, philosophers, artists and scientists would have almost certainly believed in God and the church so I find your statement quiet interesting. Yes it may have been the "brainwashing" of the people of the age but it does not change the the fact that they "believed".
In our modern age many people have turned their back on the Church and there are some extreme religions that put a blinker on common sense let alone science and free thought. In the same token I have seen many non-religious people applying some of those same blinkers.
In modern times I think if you looked at percentage of the population rather than strict numbers you may not find a difference between the two groups. I am not convinced that "atheists tend to be more intelligent, better educated and more coherently responsive to differing points of view" so I would love to see your evidence.
rockchick
18-Sep-07, 21:21
Yes, The Ten Commandments are laws but the Christian is no longer under the law, but under grace. The law is intented to point a person in the direction of the cross and it can chase them no further because Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law...as in, he provides all the 'goodness' the law requires of us.
Of course Judaism is valid...it is the first part of God's revelation to humankind, but its not the ending point, according to the bible.
As I've mentioned before, we are absolutely against intolerance and injustice of any kind. I'll fully support 100% the muslims right to be a muslim, the Jews right to be a Jew and the Buddhists right to be a Buddhist but that does not mean that I accept them as religions that ultimately lead to eternal life because the message of the bible precludes this view...Jesus said that he was the only way to the Father.
The Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Jew would have the same position of Christianity, if not much more severe.
I can no more lay aside my belief that Jesus is the only way to God than you can lay aside your belief that all religions lead to God. Suppose were at stalemate.
I did not say that all religions lead to God...I said (or meant to say) that all religious beliefs are as valid as any others, whether they are Jewish, Christian, Sikh, Hindu or whatever. As I am Buddhist, I don't believe in any deity, so would never have made that statement.
rockchick
18-Sep-07, 21:36
Buddhism is not a religion that ultimately leads to eternal life.
Since Buddhism in general does not believe in a God or divine being, it does not have worship, praying, or praising of a divine being. It offers no form of redemption, forgiveness, heavenly hope, or final judgment. Buddhism is, therefore, more of a moral philosophy, an ethical way of life, and is not a religion as such.
The Buddhist system is a non-theistic ethical discipline, a system of self training, anthropocentric, stressing ethics and mind-culture to the exclusion of theology.
Well, you're SORTA right...Buddhists believe that if you accumulate virtues during the life you're privileged enough to live, when you die you will be reborn into another human form and (essentially) get another go. If you do not accumulate virtues, or waste the opportunity that life provides you, you will be reborn into a lesser creature, which, as it is not sentinent, has little or no opportunity to accumulate virtues and thereby go upwards on the pathway to peace.
The final "judgment" does not come from without...it comes from within. If you follow the path and find eternal peace, you achieve "nirvana", eternal peace, which equates to the Christian ideal of paradise. The only difference is that it comes from within, not without.
In my (extremely humble) opinion, Buddhism is much more spiritual than many religions. It requires one to BECOME one's religion, rather than to follow it.
What evidence is that?.
In reference to my assertion that atheists tended to be more intelligent/better educated, a quick google search may answer your question.
kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm
rockchick
19-Sep-07, 13:15
In reference to my assertion that atheists tended to be more intelligent/better educated, a quick google search may answer your question.
http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm (http://forum.caithness.org/go.php?url=http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm)
Rheghead...Buddhists don't believe in God or any deity, but are not atheists.
Interesting Thread this one.
Note that Andrew C speaks of Rheghead: "I'd suggest that you weren't an atheist. You are an agnostic. You don't know if there is a God or not". Of course; 'Atheism is the state either of being without theistic beliefs, or of actively disbelieving in the existence of deities'.
As Andrew C. knows I PM'd him on the 12th, basically to tell him I admired the SA's work, that I'd been doing good works myself and had certainly saved many 'souls' - finished off by giving a quick resume was I was an Atheist, suppose might be a pointer to why I never had a reply - but that's water under the bridge..
However I find Alfred Ramshaw's words: "Let me just clarify something here. I am proudly an Atheist, but I am not willing to take the extremely patronising view that some do of ignoring religion as important because they see religious belief as just superstitious nonsense, and anyone who falls for it must be stupid. There are extremely intelligent people who for their own personal reasons are religious, and who am I to talk about intolerance if I wont even acknowledge that religion is important." so am a bit different too?
What I do find incredible is Andrews statement: "At the age of 15 God entered into my life in a powerful way and transformed it in ways I'd never have imagined possible." '15'! At 15 we're adolescents, impressionably un-informed, un-opinionated teenagers!
At 15 I was a church-goer, I was in the Church choir, I attended church service twice every Sunday, but moving outside of that cosy domain into the great big wide world and seeing life as it is, bought me back to reality with a bump. At 18 I was personally experiencing the full horror of war, seeing broken bodies, detached limbs, ripped apart children; where was this "little children come unto me"?.. decades of my life in witnessing pointless suffering, the totally futile waste of life, where was God in all this? I found my 'belief' in this way. And ever since I have found no reason whatsoever to think otherwise.
Continue your good works Andrew, but many other organisation do such work without their God being omnipresent..
I know you are away, but connection to the net is universal.
I'm back...apologies for no reply but I really don't have the time to reply to everyone and I've had no internet access or time for internet access during my time away due to the nature of the business I was involved in. Thanks for your message though!
With regards to my conversion, I'd comment that every 15 year old is different. I'd also say that I grew up with my faith and it hasn't become weaker, it has become much stronger. I supposed you'd have to understand the extent to which it changed my life in order to understand the fact that it wasn't even within my thoughts to jettison it when life got tough.
Life isn't easy...for anyone. I've lived in three of this country's (UK) cities now, I've seen plenty of suffering. Cities like Glasgow, London and Bristol have dark things going on. I've travelled to Romania, Russia and seen the desperate plight of poverty. I've also watched from a distance the work of the Salvation Army in, for example, Iraq during the heat of the conflict and there, you see, we are living out the "little children come to me..." We fail to understand that God wants to use us to reach out to those who are being killed by the futile ravaging of war.
On the other side of the coin, we cannot forget that war is sometimes justified. Every now and again I reckon that wars produce peace and justice for all much better than they had before. Not all the time, but sometimes peace can only be found at the other side of conflict.
Where was God in all this? In the hundreds of Salvationists and many others who put their life on hold to go the war field and provide support. I could tell a story for every major coflict, natural disaster that has happened since the Army started. I say this only to emphasis that we believe in God so passionately that we'll go anywhere to show his love, anywhere.
Most of you will remember your parents saying "I always give to The Salvation Army because of the cup of tea in the war." Our people were serving tea and donuts while the shells were dropping round about them.
As you say, our life can shape our beliefs. My faith is so strong, however, that it works the other way for me. My faith shapes my life.
Finaly, I don't doubt that other organisations do good work, of course they do. And, of course you can do it without God. I've never disputed that at all. We'd like everyone to do as much as they can if it will reduce the suffering of even one person.
yours
Andrew C
You are probably correct to a certain degree, I am open minded, if I see any evidence that there is a God. Like all scientific thought processes, we can hypothesise all we want, but evidence is needed, you haven't any, and even in the light of the huge contradictory evdence , you won't accept the huge possibility that there isn't a God in the Christian sense. If you are looking for a Creator as such then there is one, the Universe itself. You are better off following an animist religion and following the Great God Universe, you are part of it and all you see around you, even them pesky endorphins that I refer to so much....Maybe the Pagans were right all a long?
I am glad you are open minded. I was open minded until I discovered the truth ;)
The earth is wonderful, I agree. The bible says that God created man in his own image, but it appears to me that there may also be a way in which he has created the earth in his own image in that it is creative, it is magnificent, beautiful, awe inspiring. Its not a huge leap to go to from 'the universe creative itself' to 'God sustaining and guiding creation.'
Have you read 'The God Delusion' by Dawkins?
Thanks for your comments.
I did not say that all religions lead to God...I said (or meant to say) that all religious beliefs are as valid as any others, whether they are Jewish, Christian, Sikh, Hindu or whatever. As I am Buddhist, I don't believe in any deity, so would never have made that statement.
I stand corrected. Apologies.
I do believe everyone's beliefs are valid, but I don't believe they all lead to God. So, I think we agree.
The fact is we can go to China and look for gold, I can actually go there and check under every rock etc and give you a definitive answer, yes or no. As soon as science discovers a new frontier where God may exist and find nothing spiritual eg. the Higgs boson or or echoes from outside the Universe then theologists will alter the goal posts so that God is unavailable for comment. In other words, the Church keeps the monopoly on God and all that money through donations and stuff...
It may just be the time of night, but not sure what you're getting at... :)
Hi Cattach
The Sally Army is well known, but there are many other charities doing similar things in the homelessness and rehabilitation area.
Centrepoint, Shelter, Crisis, Big Issue, Emmaus are the big national ones.
Thames Reach and St Mungo's do fantastic work in London, and there are many other excellent regional charities.
They receive some money from government, but much of it comes from grant-making trusts such as the Baring Foundation, Sainsbury Family Charitable Trusts, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation etc............and corporate charity fundraisers such as StreetSmart and Crash.
The Sally Army couldn't possibly cope with all the long and short term needs of the vulnerable in our society. It's probably a little naive to connect their existence with your tax rate;).
These are all excellent charities, every one. You've only mentioned a small proportion too. The thing about the Army's work is that its so incredibly diverse. For example, people like Big Issue deal with homlessness and related problems; Help the Aged help the aged etc etc, but we are meeting diverse local needs at the point of contact as well as the well known national work.
Many of you will have had one of our people at your door this week. This is for the UK Social Work fund that goes to the hostels, rehab centres etc etc. However, if Wick had a localised problem next week (say a flood, bad traffic accident, shipping disaster, mass unemployment, bad fire etc etc) we'd be responding to that locally with local funds. Big Issue wouldn't get involved if a ship run aground off the coast.
That doesn't mean to say we're better, I'm just making the point that we are diverse. We certainly couldn't cope with all the needs in our society. We can't even afford to sort the ones we're tying to deal with. The Highland Council in Inverness, for example, recently withdrew their contribution towards the funding for the hostel down there. Therefore, the Army has to close the hostel. We can't do half of what we want to do without the money.
But, as I said, take the Salvation Army out of around 800 communities in mainland UK alone, and you'd notice the difference...some communities more than others. When we worked in Glasgow, there were nearly 200 people who relied on us for lunch every week.
So, we're not expendable, but you'd notice we were gone.
Andrew,
It is possible to reply to all who post by using the 'multiquote' thus addressing each point individually without post after post from you...saving you precious time!
karia
It may just be the time of night, but not sure what you're getting at... :)
My point was that you were using a scientifically determinable analogy to make it look as you were talking sense in order to back up your unscientific belief in God. So your analogy was not valid.
I was open minded until I discovered the truth ;)
You are right about that one, truth is based in faith not fact, iow, you only see if things are true if they are compatible with Faith. The truth (quality and allignment of its materials) of a Cathedral gives it its strength, likewise, the truth of ones beliefs does the same for one's Faith.
Andrew,
It is possible to reply to all who post by using the 'multiquote' thus addressing each point individually without post after post from you...saving you precious time!
karia
It would sure help to stop that big, wagging, red tongue avatar licking its way down my monitor as I scroll down. Doesn't that tongue ever get tired? ;)
t would sure help to stop that big, wagging, red tongue avatar licking its way down my monitor as I scroll down. Doesn't that tongue ever get tired?
exactly...............:roll:
helenwyler
21-Sep-07, 12:24
karia, scorrie & johno......yep, yep, yep!!![lol]
Personally I don't think that tongue will ever get tired, but I'd sure like to see a bit less of it on my screen...looks a bit inflamed to me;).
connieb19
21-Sep-07, 12:41
Why do so many people feel the need to be so rude to Andrew, it's like people are trying to bully him to "shut up" just because some of you don't agree with his opinions. :confused
Why do so many people feel the need to be so rude to Andrew, it's like people are trying to bully him to "shut up" just because some of you don't agree with his opinions. :confused
Thanks for your concern and support, but don't worry about it. I'm not about to 'shut up' and don't feel bullied. These reactions towards the Christian faith are perfectly normal for a small minority of the population.
Like has been said before, people don't have to read the posts.
But thanks for pointing out the multi-quote facility...I'll learn how to use it one day!
Did,nt someone reccomend a god section , Jeemac was,nt it.
thought that was a good idea, did nothing ever come of it.?????:confused
Folks, having recently become aquianted with the book by Dawkins, it appears to me that some of you may have read it. It is an interesting book and I'm picking up many of his themes here in this thread.
Reading Dawkins on theology is a little bit like listening to someone lecturing in biology when his only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds.
Dawkins doesn't give a clear definition of his understanding of the word 'delusion', but he clearly means a faith not founded in evidence - or worse, that flies in the face of evidence. To him (and many of you), faith is "blind trust, in the absence of evidence, even in the teeth of evidence" (Dawkins p5). He says it is a 'process of non-thinking.'
These core definitions are hardwired into Dawkins world view, and are obsessively repeated throughout his writings. This is not a Christian definition of faith at all, but it is one that Dawkins has invented to suit his own polemical purposes.
Dawkins rightly emphasises the importance that faith plays for people. What you beleive has a significant impact on life and thought. That makes it all the more important to scrutinise faith so that delusions are exposed. I agree entirely. It is possible to rebutt every one of Dawkin's Delusions by the use of scientific, historical and philosophical arguments to prove that his case against God doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Those of you who base your thought around his writings or ideas that come from are on shaky ground in that it is, in itself, a delusionary set of ideas pulled together to for some weak and pathetic excuse of a theory.
We all need to examine our beliefs- especially if we are naive enough to think that we don't have any in the first place. But I wonder to myself constantly...who exactly is it that is deluded about God???
Perhaps this post can act as an opening gambit on a discussion of Dawkin's arguments. We could open it in a new discussion thread to give it full attention? what do you think?
connieb19
21-Sep-07, 14:00
What's the point in having another section, people make up their own minds what they want to read and what not to read, it's not like the title of this thread was misleading people to believe they were going to be linked to a recipe or a lost cat (no offence to lost cats). :confused Oops this was in reply to johnos post about a God section, not to Andrew's suggestion of another thread to discuss Richard Dawkins.
Did,nt someone reccomend a god section , Jeemac was,nt it.
thought that was a good idea, did nothing ever come of it.?????
nothing came of it because we decided that if there was a God section, there would need to be a politics, shopping, wind-farm, tv, tesco, etc etc etc section too :o)
Like I say, there is no compulsion to read threads you don't want to read. :)
but surely Andrew could take charge of the thread and then any one on it knows what it is and would be there because they really wanted to be, a sort of captive willing audience. yes.?
but surely Andrew could take charge of the thread and then any one on it knows what it is and would be there because they really wanted to be, a sort of captive willing audience. yes.?
If I am as manipulative as you are making out, then surely I'd want my deluding posts in the general threads so that I can snare and lure unsuspecting people into my evil lair much easier seeing as there would be no warning signs on the doorposts. [evil] [lol]
Margaret M.
21-Sep-07, 14:50
What's the point in having another section, people make up their own minds what they want to read and what not to read, it's not like the title of this thread was misleading people to believe they were going to be linked to a recipe or a lost cat (no offence to lost cats).
LOL, I agree. If there's a thread that doesn't interest me, I simply skip over it.
Why do so many people feel the need to be so rude to Andrew, it's like people are trying to bully him to "shut up" just because some of you don't agree with his opinions. :confused
Blimey, where is your sense of humour?
You have to admit that Andrew has had some Shakespearean length posts, sometimes running consecutively, throughout this thread. It is that fact and the fact that the avatar looks like a tongue, that I am commenting on. In a very gentle way too, I might add.
Of course, when you have had sparring partners on other threads it can affect the way you perceive those people's posts in all future threads.
Lighten up, before a Canonise Contrary Connie Campaign Commences ;)
If I am as manipulative as you are making out, then surely I'd want my deluding posts in the general threads so that I can snare and lure unsuspecting people into my evil lair much easier seeing as there would be no warning signs on the doorposts.
I have two mates, one that just stopped smoking and hated everyone that still smoked & The other went on a diet & lost a power of weight and hated every one that was a bit overweight. They both bored us silly going on about fat people & smokers with their preachings, In the end we just avoided them both if we could. Is that what you really want some of us to do Andrew. :confused
Reading Dawkins on theology is a little bit like listening to someone lecturing in biology when his only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds.
It is strange that you just so happened to come up with the same lame thing as another orger did on this very same subject, I suspect that your opinion is not of your own but a plaguerised version of some other published work.
The processes of natural selection and evolution has determined the physiology of all living things, no field of biology is exempt from it. Therefore, it is quite appropriate for anyone to have a specialist knowledge of one particular field and then extrapolate its principles to other creatures.
However, this isn't what Dawkins does, he admits that his knowledge only extensively extends to the Christian deity but his mission statement is to pursue the notion of Faith as folly, since folly has determined the nature of Faith in all religions..
Dawkins doesn't give a clear definition of his understanding of the word 'delusion', but he clearly means a faith not founded in evidence - or worse, that flies in the face of evidence. To him (and many of you), faith is "blind trust, in the absence of evidence, even in the teeth of evidence" (Dawkins p5). He says it is a 'process of non-thinking.'
These core definitions are hardwired into Dawkins world view, and are obsessively repeated throughout his writings. This is not a Christian definition of faith at all, but it is one that Dawkins has invented to suit his own polemical purposes.
No it isn't what he has dreamed up at all. There are thousands of documented cases of natural events and phenomena that were once put down as acts of God but have a more scientific explanation.
Dawkins rightly emphasises the importance that faith plays for people. What you beleive has a significant impact on life and thought. That makes it all the more important to scrutinise faith so that delusions are exposed. I agree entirely. It is possible to rebutt every one of Dawkin's Delusions by the use of scientific, historical and philosophical arguments to prove that his case against God doesn't have a leg to stand on.
You have missed the whole gist of the book, Faith is the delusion, and it isn't possible to rebutt anything that Dawkins claims by any scientific arguement.
Those of you who base your thought around his writings or ideas that come from are on shaky ground in that it is, in itself, a delusionary set of ideas pulled together to for some weak and pathetic excuse of a theory.
Examples please.[lol]
We all need to examine our beliefs- especially if we are naive enough to think that we don't have any in the first place. But I wonder to myself constantly...who exactly is it that is deluded about God???
You should be asking yourself why you are deluded into God not what you are deluded about God! :)
Perhaps this post can act as an opening gambit on a discussion of Dawkin's arguments. We could open it in a new discussion thread to give it full attention? what do you think?
yeah, bring it on, if you are going to reiterate the evidence in that case in the US, then the jury saw through all the ID rubbish.
Andrew; you seems to be making a presumption certainly not justified; I'm sure those of us who have read Dawkins do not base our thoughts around his writings and ideas - we'd made our minds up long before Dawkins appeared, and after we had left puberty. I quote your comment;- "Those of you who base your thought around his writings or ideas that come from are on shaky ground in that it is, in itself, a delusionary set of ideas pulled together to for some weak and pathetic excuse of a theory" Hmm; "weak and pathetic excuse for a theory" and you think some book cobbled together 2,000 years ago has more substance?
I point you to page 178 of Dawkins book; "..the witches have an extra internal animal-like organ that flies away at night and ruins other people's crops or poisons their blood. It is said these witches sometimes assemble for huge banquets, where they devour the victims and plan future attacks.." and "I was mentioning these and other exotica over dinner in a Cambridge college when one of our guests, a prominent Cambridge theologian turned to me and said' this is what makes anthropology so fascinating and so different too, you have to explain how people can believe such nonsense' which left me dumfounded. the conversation had moved on before I could find a pertinent response - to do with kettles and pots"
We hear about your loving God but surely Genesis 19: 5. 7-8. 31-6 Judges 19: 29 et el is to the contrary, or do we not like to mention too much of the old testament?
You may have noticed on this thread a certain amount of animosity or in the least irreverence.
Myself, like a great many others have always held the Salvation Army in high esteem, but Andrew, you may be getting to be thumping your drum a little too much for some; "We all need to examine our beliefs- especially if we are naive enough to think that we don't have any in the first place" ! 'Naive'? who do you think we are? And please do not debase yourself by thinking 'we' base our thoughts on some blokes writings, we're not that shallow I'm sure. - Hi, anyone out there base their thoughts on Dawkins? do tell...
Actually i think this is exactly what Andrew wants, for us to reply & reply to his writings, I think he is very clever in keeping this topic from dying the death it aught to have died many many posts ago. myself,im just going to ignore his posts ,[ posts] some of them have more words that one of Jeffrey Archers books] So good luck on your crusade Andrew. bye bye.
Folks, having recently become aquianted with the book by Dawkins, it appears to me that some of you may have read it.........<snip>......
Perhaps this post can act as an opening gambit on a discussion of Dawkin's arguments. We could open it in a new discussion thread to give it full attention? what do you think?
Andrew - we've done Dawkins here before. A click on the Search Forums facility at the top right hand side of your screen with the keyword "Dawkins" will point you in the right direction.
I don't wish to be misconstrued as being "rude" here but I've read enough of your posts and the replies here, to realise that you are perhaps ruffling some feathers here the wrong way.
For myself it doesn't matter - I'm part of the foundations here in Wick - you would pass me by without a second glance. I examine my beliefs most days and I am not deluded about God.
You need to stop & listen to your community before you begin thrusting the "answers" forward. I've lived here all my life & I am still, thankfully, able to learn something new each day :D
Andrew,
Can I suggest that what god wants right now is for you to go off and do the 'good deeds' that you do..without asking for thanks or recognition on his , (or more likely... 'your' behalf!:roll:)
Do good by stealth, be found out by accident!
Karia
I've deleted my post out of respect to my fellow posters on here
As I understand it, there are only two commandments in The Christian religion.
1.You should love god.
2.You should love other people in the same way that you love your own.
This being the case, then The Christian Church has only two functions, to try and get people to acknowledge the one god and to teach that we are all equal regardless of race,colur,creed.
If The Christian Church is prepared to take a stand on such matters then the world would be a happier place, until such time as it does, it will continue to be denigrated and to lose it's followers.
This may be a little simplistic but I have no wish to get into an in depth theological treatise and am merely making an observation.
If The Christian Church is prepared to take a stand on such matters then the world would be a happier place, until such time as it does, it will continue to be denigrated and to lose it's followers.
This may be a little simplistic but I have no wish to get into an in depth theological treatise and am merely making an observation.
Lizz, "what if" as I do?..........I do not belive in the Kirk and its teachings, or Andrew and his. What is going to be come of me?
Andrew,
Can I suggest that what god wants right now is for you to go off and do the 'good deeds' that you do..
Karia
Hmmm, that is the polite way of saying it I suppose....:confused
I'll see you in the green glade by the pool with the alder trees golach!
Failing that if the ancients are to be believed you are damned and hellfire and brimstone, not to mention the rack will be you're punishment.
I point you to page 178 of Dawkins book; "..the witches have an extra internal animal-like organ that flies away at night and ruins other people's crops or poisons their blood. It is said these witches sometimes assemble for huge banquets, where they devour the victims and plan future attacks.." and "I was mentioning these and other exotica over dinner in a Cambridge college when one of our guests, a prominent Cambridge theologian turned to me and said' this is what makes anthropology so fascinating and so different too, you have to explain how people can believe such nonsense' which left me dumfounded. the conversation had moved on before I could find a pertinent response - to do with kettles and pots"
Nonsense? What nonsense? It's all true. :D
I'll see you in the green glade by the pool with the alder trees golach!
Failing that if the ancients are to be believed you are damned and hellfire and brimstone, not to mention the rack will be you're punishment.
:D Lizz, no way, the way of your so called ancients is IMO even more bizarre than the teachings I got at Sunday School, I cannot believe in them either, but they are good stories for scaring the bairns :eek: Tam 'O Shanter by our National Bard Robert Burns is the best ghostie and goolie story I have heard.
I've deleted my post out of respect to my fellow posters on hereOoooh what did I miss?
Lizz, "what if" as I do?..........I do not belive in the Kirk and its teachings, or Andrew and his. What is going to be come of me?I think you'd make a good pagan golach. We revel in the beauty of the earth and all who sail on her and we try to protect her. There's no need to believe in mumbo jumbo or pretend that man made supernatural stories are real but spells are fun. ;)
I think you'd make a good pagan golach. We revel in the beauty of the earth and all who sail on her and we try to protect her. There's no need to believe in mumbo jumbo or pretend that mad made supernatural stories are real but spells are fun. ;)
Crayola, with respect your are becoming as boring as the evangelists in here, there is no way you are going to convert me to your Wiccian or whatever the current Hippie religion is in trend at the moment. My only belief is fate, and I make my own.:D
Paganism is not a 'Hippie' religion. It's as old as humanity and involves the celebration of nature as we find it. You know I'm right. ;)
Anyways, your last sentence is a contradiction in terms. :roll:
My only belief is fate, and I make my own.:D
Ah, someday you will regret the arrogance of your ignorance.LOL:D
Anyways, your last sentence is a contradiction in terms. :roll:
Crayola...........I am a contradiction in terms [lol]
I'd thought ye were a grumpy owld man golach. Did ye see the light and get cured?
Back on topic. What can the Church do in Week?
How do you get to join the Sally Ann then? Do you have to pass a Christianity test? Maybe Captain Andrew can do them outside 'spoons on a Saturday. A free uniform to anyone who gets more than 90% right? That should keep some of the hooligans off the streets. I keep reading on here that a spell in the army will do them good.
Does the Sally Ann do drill like the marines I saw on telly the other night? There were some fine specimens of young laddies but some mummy's boys were as soft as maltesers.
:Tam 'O Shanter by our National Bard Robert Burns is the best ghostie and goolie story I have heard.
Aye, this thread is lacking in the ghostie department but floweth o'er with goolies ;)
Ooooh what did I miss?
Nothing much Crayola. I never post much of importance. The post I edited was not very clear - someone very kindly pm'd me about it so I went back & cleaned up. My previous post to this one sums it all up - I'm still learning.....:)
We all need a stint in the Army to toughen us up and prepare us for Salvation when we face the Revelations that await us at the end of the world.
Would paramilitary rule by the Salvation Army cure this country of its inexorable moral decline? Let's join up and spark the embers of a military coup to save ourselves from the eternal fires of damnation. We'll start by selling the War Cry in 'spoons tomorrow night. Is anyone with me? You're either with me or agin me. :D
Hi friends...so you've done Dawkins before..forgive me for bringing up old ground. We're products of our own learning to a certain degree, so yes, in the same way I can hear Dawkins coming through in your points, so you will here Dawkins' fellow professor at Oxford, Alistair McGrath coming through in my points.
It is interesting though that even one post coming at fundamentalist atheism in the way that 'fundamentalist' Christianity has been popped at in this forum brings on a maelstrom of 'grab your torch and pitch fork.' I've often been likened to Shrek. lol. It's acceptable for others to malign the Christian faith, but as soon as fundamental atheism is questioned in the same way that the Christian faith is questions I'm 'run out of town.' This has always been the way of it.
I suppose that in many ways if doesn't matter what I say or how I say it, it still won't be met in the spirit in which it is intended, but thats OK. As I've said, I'll go to the death to defend your right to disagree with me.
With regard to Moira's point about thrusting answers, the only thing I'd say is that I've actually been trying to thrust questions rather than answers. That fact has been rather obscured by the discussion on the existance of God, but I wouldn't be so rude as to ignore people's comments and questions.
With regards to Karia's suggestion, I'd just say we're looking neither for recognition or thanks...in fact we'll continue to do what we do whatever happens, whether in good times or bad. I know people would rather we disappear, but its not our style. Think about it this way...if our message is as important as we think it is, then we'd be mad to keep it quiet. I hope you see the logic in that.
With regards to Lizz's comments, you've hit the nail on the head with regards to what we try to do. You summed it up well. This is exactly the drum we thump with all the enthusiasm we can.
Finally for this thread, just to say thanks for the discussion..frank and open. I guess when it stops being open and when frank turns into frankenstien its time to call it a day. :)
Thanks to those who've offered posts in line with the actual purpose of the thread to comment on what the church an positively be doing. It has been good over this last week to meet so many Wickers on the doorstep as we've been collecting for our annual Social Work appeal....thanks to all those who've given in that way.
bye for now,
Andrew C
The Salvation Army...putting the 'fun' back into fundamentalism ;)
I guess when it stops being open and when frank turns into frankenstien its time to call it a day. :)
If you are referring to a stitched together version of events for the purpose of a grandiose mind-job then ,yes, we should call it a day. It is funny that the days are called after the remnants of a pagan religion, no?:Razz
It's acceptable for others to malign the Christian faith, but as soon as fundamental atheism is questioned in the same way that the Christian faith is questions I'm 'run out of town.' This has always been the way of it.
It hasn't always been the way of it at all. The Church's history is peppered with dissidents to theologic doctrine who have paid the fatal price for their enlightenment.
<snip> Would paramilitary rule by the Salvation Army cure this country of its inexorable moral decline? ........
We'll start by selling the War Cry in 'spoons tomorrow night. Is anyone with me? You're either with me or agin me <snip>
My answer to your first question is "Probably" or "Maybe"
My answer to your second question is that I am "agin" you - give me a Young Soldier anyday.
Hi friends...so you've done Dawkins before..forgive me for bringing up old ground <snip>
....I suppose that in many ways if doesn't matter what I say or how I say it, it still won't be met in the spirit in which it is intended, but thats OK. As I've said, I'll go to the death to defend your right to disagree with me.....
With regard to Moira's point about thrusting answers, the only thing I'd say is that I've actually been trying to thrust questions rather than answers. That fact has been rather obscured by the discussion on the existance of God, but I wouldn't be so rude as to ignore people's comments and questions....... <snip>
Hi Andrew
Joining a new community as you have done cannot be easy. No need to apologise over Dawkins. It may have been prudent to research your audience before you started here on Caithness.org though.
I take your point about the fact that you are trying to thrust questions rather than answers, the obscurity of God & your enthusiasm for not wishing to appear rude in not replying to each post as soon as you can.
I pop in here for a coffee break, lunchtime - whatever - when I'm working from home. I try to follow all the threads here & I've found your post by post replies tedious, though I appreciate that is not what you intended. I, for one, admire your enthusiasm and don't wish to put you off. Let the thread run for a bit Andrew - common themes & thoughts will emerge - then you can shoot them all down with the same barrel load - only joking ;)
My answer to your first question is "Probably" or "Maybe"
My answer to your second question is that I am "agin" you - give me a Young Soldier anyday.Crikey Moira, we wouldn't be allowed a Young Soldier if we were ruled by the Sally Ann. He's ignored me today but I'd expect to be burned at the stake if he was running the show. :lol:
You're getting paranoid now Crayola - AndrewC would never be capable of such a thing. I'm almost sure he drove by me tonight in River Street while I was trying to work out whether I'd just locked/unlocked my car.
I'd be happy to share my Young Soldier with you -we could perhaps solve the crossword together ;)
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