View Full Version : Spiritual Conflict?
A Minister in Somerset has banned a Yoga Group run for children of pre-school age which was being run in the Church Hall. This is not as a result of some fear that they may suffer some physical harm due to some of the Yoga positions which I admit I find painful even to watch, never mind try.
Oh no, it's far worse than that. The Ministers concern is due to the fact that, "Clearly yoga impinges on the spiritual life of people in a way which we as Christians don't believe is the same as our ethos.''
I have to admit that I have very little knowledge of the Spirituality surrounding Yoga but does anybody else find the Minister's comment a little extreme or am I missing some deep spiritual contradiction?
And children of pre-school age are really going to understand the spiritual side of it anyway aren't they?
Utter claptrap - I don't know the story, or the facts, Jaws, but in this day & age, anything that gets our little ones out & about away from the TV & mixing with others should be a good thing.
Would this Minister prefer that the little ones start a dance class, dancing along to good ol' tunes like 'All that she wants... Ace of bass'... or 'I'm too sexy... Right said Fred' ?? :roll: (you get my drift here,...... some of the latest top tens are too graphic even for the forum!)
I'm just glad they were not dancing round the Maypole! I dread to think of the conflict that would have caused. :eek:
sassylass
01-Sep-07, 01:14
Jeepers is that the same church which banned Harry Potter books? How narrow minded can they get? :roll:
I'm just glad they were not dancing round the Maypole! I dread to think of the conflict that would have caused. :eek:
Heehee, funny that, we did a maypole dance at our C of E primary school.... oh, those were the days! [lol]
A Minister in Somerset has banned a Yoga Group run for children of pre-school age which was being run in the Church Hall.
Golly, that runs very counter to what I thought preschool-age kids want to get up to and my notion that it was only middle aged women who go in for it. (I have been myself once or twice though).
Mind you, I can sympathise with the minister, his job is to create a totally christian environment for those kids to get them brainwashed. If they are exposed to outside spiritual sources at too an early age then he might lose a few lambs from his flock.
northener
01-Sep-07, 08:31
Another example of a religious leader reacting in a intolerant way to anything that does not fit in with their narrow-minded and divisionist views.
Christianity has, over the years (imo), been one of the most opressive and intolerant religions ever to be spewed out of the human mind.
The Christian Word is sound, the use of the Christian Word down the centuries to wield power and control ought to be a source of shame to most Westerners.
Yet another church spokesman whose narrow minded words do the cause of Christianity absolutely no good. So many people who I am sure genuinely believe they are followers of Jesus have lost sight of the basics and crucify Him again. If only they could concentrate on the two commandments He gave us to override all others - love God and love your neighbour as yourself. That's all that matters.
Jesus was impatient with the church officials in his time and frequently criticised their petty mindedness but this, and worse, has continued in the organisation of the church ever since. Men have to create petty rules and become so obsessed with them that they forget what it should all be about. Whatever happened to "Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not" ? I don't remember anything about "so long as they don't ...... (whatever) ".
Sounds as if this is based on something similar to the oft quoted Jesuitical view "give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man".
Why are church leaders like this one so narrow minded, controlling and intolerant?.... or perhaps they are afraid? :confused
It doesn't seem much in the Christian spirit to me. :(
St. Peter was showing a newcomer round heaven when they came to a huge high walled enclosure and Peter told the newcomer to please be quiet when they came near it. 'Why' said the newcomer and Peter replied, ' Thats where the Protestants are and they believe they are the only ones up here'.:)
I don't think it's worth making a fuss about. I don't think he's in any way representative of any Christian church. He's a nobody whose making a stand against nothing. All they have to do is get rid of him and all will be fine.
This seems like a post that perhaps I could say something about.
I don't know the exact reasons as to why the minister chose to close the yoga class, but as a 'church leader' I'd do the same. No surprises there you might thing...and straight away those of you who haven't already made the assumption will be deciding now that I'm as narrow minded as the next Christian.
Fistly, I'd say that the Christian reaction to yoga is about positive and not negative. Let me explain...yoga teaches that to move to a 'high spiritual level' that you must empty your mind of everything. Its about turning off your emotions, feelings, abilities, experiences and getting to a place of nothingness. Now, to me, that would give me peace. It would mean that all was left was...well...nothing! No, my emotions, feelings, abilities and experiences are all that make me up!
Christianity, when communicated effectively, is about the opposite. It is about filling a person up with love, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self-control, peace, love, joy kindness. Its also about embracing a person as they are, healing and helping the broken bits and moving towards wholeness of body, mind and spirit.
Yes, the claims of God's word are radical, seemingly narrow and exclusive. But all for good reason. Authentic Christianity simply tries to say that faith in Jesus Christ is the absolute pinnacle of spiritual peace. Anything that isn't that may have a level of interest to people, even seemingly helpful, but will always be less that best.
Now, herein lies the problem. The church in this nation has often been the most judgemental, dry, cynical and hypocritical place to be...orgers experiences of church may have been just that. The church has a lot to answer for, believe me because it has taken such spiritual depth of experience to be found in the Christian gospel and reduced it to the level of something which bores the vast majority of us to tears.
So, no. I'd discourage yoga simply on the basis that there is something deeper to be had. I'm not afraid of yoga, but I'm not entirely convinced it delivers what it promises. You might say that of Christianity....but I'd suggest that it is Churchianity, not Christianity that fails people. Looking forward to your comments again!
yours
Andrew C
Margaret M.
02-Sep-07, 15:11
Oh my stars Andrew, you and the minister in Somerset need to take a few yoga classes!
As far as I'm concerned, Andrew (and I have written to this priest because I was so cross), it has nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of yoga per se and everything to do with turning away innocent children and their parents from a chance to learn the true meaning of Christianity. This man was handed a group of people to befriend, show them God's love and maybe even eventually persuade some of them to become Christians. Instead he shut the door and said, in effect, "we don't want you".
His reply to me was that he could not allow people to exist in false beliefs - fine but excluding them from the fold is hardly going to change their beliefs, in fact it's likely to harden them. I was under the impression that the church existed for sinners, not saints. That was certainly the message of the Gospels, when the self-righteous priests of the time criticised Jesus for the company he kept. I wonder what kind of reception He would get in some churches now?
Yeah, I wonder what would happen if Jesus walked into a church and told them all that living 6 days whatever way you want and then going to church one day a week wasn't quite what God was looking for in people who claim to serve him.......hmmmmmmmmmm
Jeemag_USA
02-Sep-07, 17:49
Just the usual religious claptrap. Thee is a church across the street from me, was looking at the front page of their website one day to see an open leter to the congregation from the minister urging parents to ban their kids from Harry Potter films and books because it encourages fantasy and withcraft and wizardry [lol]
This seems like a post that perhaps I could say something about.
I don't know the exact reasons as to why the minister chose to close the yoga class, but as a 'church leader' I'd do the same. No surprises there you might thing...and straight away those of you who haven't already made the assumption will be deciding now that I'm as narrow minded as the next Christian.
Fistly, I'd say that the Christian reaction to yoga is about positive and not negative. Let me explain...yoga teaches that to move to a 'high spiritual level' that you must empty your mind of everything. Its about turning off your emotions, feelings, abilities, experiences and getting to a place of nothingness. Now, to me, that would give me peace. It would mean that all was left was...well...nothing! No, my emotions, feelings, abilities and experiences are all that make me up!
Christianity, when communicated effectively, is about the opposite. It is about filling a person up with love, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self-control, peace, love, joy kindness. Its also about embracing a person as they are, healing and helping the broken bits and moving towards wholeness of body, mind and spirit.
Yes, the claims of God's word are radical, seemingly narrow and exclusive. But all for good reason. Authentic Christianity simply tries to say that faith in Jesus Christ is the absolute pinnacle of spiritual peace. Anything that isn't that may have a level of interest to people, even seemingly helpful, but will always be less that best.
Now, herein lies the problem. The church in this nation has often been the most judgemental, dry, cynical and hypocritical place to be...orgers experiences of church may have been just that. The church has a lot to answer for, believe me because it has taken such spiritual depth of experience to be found in the Christian gospel and reduced it to the level of something which bores the vast majority of us to tears.
So, no. I'd discourage yoga simply on the basis that there is something deeper to be had. I'm not afraid of yoga, but I'm not entirely convinced it delivers what it promises. You might say that of Christianity....but I'd suggest that it is Churchianity, not Christianity that fails people. Looking forward to your comments again!
yours
Andrew Cyes i agree 100% andrew
Jeemag_USA
02-Sep-07, 18:03
This seems like a post that perhaps I could say something about.
I don't know the exact reasons as to why the minister chose to close the yoga class, but as a 'church leader' I'd do the same. No surprises there you might thing...and straight away those of you who haven't already made the assumption will be deciding now that I'm as narrow minded as the next Christian.
Fistly, I'd say that the Christian reaction to yoga is about positive and not negative. Let me explain...yoga teaches that to move to a 'high spiritual level' that you must empty your mind of everything. Its about turning off your emotions, feelings, abilities, experiences and getting to a place of nothingness. Now, to me, that would give me peace. It would mean that all was left was...well...nothing! No, my emotions, feelings, abilities and experiences are all that make me up!
Christianity, when communicated effectively, is about the opposite. It is about filling a person up with love, goodness, kindness, gentleness, self-control, peace, love, joy kindness. Its also about embracing a person as they are, healing and helping the broken bits and moving towards wholeness of body, mind and spirit.
Yes, the claims of God's word are radical, seemingly narrow and exclusive. But all for good reason. Authentic Christianity simply tries to say that faith in Jesus Christ is the absolute pinnacle of spiritual peace. Anything that isn't that may have a level of interest to people, even seemingly helpful, but will always be less that best.
Now, herein lies the problem. The church in this nation has often been the most judgemental, dry, cynical and hypocritical place to be...orgers experiences of church may have been just that. The church has a lot to answer for, believe me because it has taken such spiritual depth of experience to be found in the Christian gospel and reduced it to the level of something which bores the vast majority of us to tears.
So, no. I'd discourage yoga simply on the basis that there is something deeper to be had. I'm not afraid of yoga, but I'm not entirely convinced it delivers what it promises. You might say that of Christianity....but I'd suggest that it is Churchianity, not Christianity that fails people. Looking forward to your comments again!
yours
Andrew C
Sorry I have to disagree with you. During the practice of Yoga you are encouraged to empty yourself to attain a higher spiritual level to get the best benefit of the excercise as you practice it. I study Aikido and we spend a certain amount of time before classes doing meditation to totally realx ourselves and we are asked to do the same thing. It is not that people practicing Yoga are asked to attain this spiritual level every breathing minute of the day. Yoga has been practiced for many hundreds of years and from what I know it does not have a public disciplinary record. The fact that a Christian church is too inward looking and blinkered to only their own practices to allow someone to have a Yoga class, is the very reason why more people in future will shun churches for their backward looking ideals and selfishness.
I practice Aikido, we meditate and discuss spiritual beliefs from Ueshiba Morehei who was the Japanese Founder of Aikido, we also sometimes do chanting during meditation and the syllables used are for cleansing the body and relaxing the mind. We practice in St.Lukes United Methodist Church, and we have a great relationship. The same church also allows classes in Yoga, Medititation and various other alternative activities. Mainly because they are an open minded and forward looking church, unlike some others and individuals whose mindset is stuck in the "blind faith" mode.
If people with different interests and beliefs cannot share a space together, how can they share a world together.
Just my opinion anyway.
Does a person not free their mind and body and slip into a different spiritual plane when they are "Speaking in Tongues"?
Just the usual religious claptrap. Thee is a church across the street from me, was looking at the front page of their website one day to see an open leter to the congregation from the minister urging parents to ban their kids from Harry Potter films and books because it encourages fantasy and withcraft and wizardry [lol]
Just out of interest as I've not read the books or seen the films, does Harry Potter contain fantasy, witchcraft and wizardry?
Jeemag_USA
02-Sep-07, 18:33
Just out of interest as I've not read the books or seen the films, does Harry Potter contain fantasy, witchcraft and wizardry?
Yes I would say it does, in a kind of Walt Disney fashion, but I wouldn't say it enourages young people to pratice those kind of things though. I mean if you think about it people can be influenced by almost anything, should we ban everything?
helenwyler
02-Sep-07, 18:41
Oh my stars Andrew, you and the minister in Somerset need to take a few yoga classes!
I agree Margaret[lol]!
Can't wait till yoga starts again tomorrow after a long stiffening summer break:D!!
Just out of interest as I've not read the books or seen the films, does Harry Potter contain fantasy, witchcraft and wizardry?
The bible is the biggest source of fantasy witchcraft and wizardry. The difference is most kids who read Harry Potter will know that fantasy is a healthy human pastime whilst many bible believers will take the words of a 3000 year old Taliban type superstitious scribe, as gospel.
The bible is the biggest source of fantasy witchcraft and wizardry.
Really?
Have you read the Bible?
The Bible does speak about witchcraft but in a negative way and condemns it.
The difference is most kids who read Harry Potter will know that fantasy is a healthy human pastime whilst many bible believers will take the words of a 3000 year old Taliban type superstitious scribe, as gospel.
Yes I think it does contain good news....not sure about whether it's Taliban style or not....I'd say not.
The bible is the biggest source of fantasy witchcraft and wizardry. The difference is most kids who read Harry Potter will know that fantasy is a healthy human pastime whilst many bible believers will take the words of a 3000 year old Taliban type superstitious scribe, as gospel.Wow gleeber, the things ye find oot on CCWS, here was me thinking it was King James VI that had it translated from the origional tongues in A.D. 1611, then revisesd again A.D.1881-1885, then again in A.D. 1901, finally compared with the ancient authorities and revised once more in A.D. 1952.
What fantasy do we believe, its been rewritten so many times now.
Really?
Have you read the Bible?
The Bible does speak about witchcraft but in a negative way and condemns it.
Yes I think it does contain good news....not sure about whether it's Taliban style or not....I'd say not.
I know enough about the bible and its theology to know why it is the powerful book it is. You say it yourself. The bible talks about witchcraft. In my world thats just a name to go with genuine human emotions. You have to forgive me though. You have me at a disadvantage by believing the bible to be some kinda message from god. I have no defence against such claims.
Andrew missed out a bit when he was trying to justify the Christian position over yoga.
The way I understand yoga is, it's a physical excercise for the good of the body, but a by product of having a healthy body, is an enquiring mind. Jeemag described an alternative spiritual path as a result of yoga and meditation. Seems ok to me.
The bit Andrew missed out was that once the mind is empty it's then open to the influences of demons. Demons are scary spiritual entities who actually share our world with us and given half a chance will be in there, driving our lives like windows drives my pc .
I'm not saying Andrew or Saveman believe that, but I sometimes watch Christian television and there are plenty influential Christians who do.
Camel Spider
02-Sep-07, 20:02
I read the Bible once .. then I skipped to the end and it ruined it for me.
I have always thought that if someone has a religious belief then I personally have no right to question it. Im Agnostic but I have had moments of doubt as at some points my life has hit rock bottom and yet something has always comes along to help me out, these doubts have been few and VERY far between.
If I am wrong I will adopt the Homer Simpson attitude and repent on my deathbed !!, and to avoid threadjack of the original topic yes, I believe the minister was wrong.
Sasha's Mum
02-Sep-07, 23:57
Yogs is portrayed as a great form of exercise but it derives from Hinduism. Would take ages to explain but the series of positions used in the West for warm up exercises are all postures to the Sun god (baal in the Bible). I have studied it and I would, if I had a Church, not allow it either. Not because I am narrow minded but concerned for the spiritual health of those who practice it. totally agree with Andrew C, so refreshing to have a Minister who is tuned in and sounds like someone I would like to meet.
Jeemag_USA
03-Sep-07, 00:43
Yogs is portrayed as a great form of exercise but it derives from Hinduism. Would take ages to explain but the series of positions used in the West for warm up exercises are all postures to the Sun god (baal in the Bible). I have studied it and I would, if I had a Church, not allow it either. Not because I am narrow minded but concerned for the spiritual health of those who practice it. totally agree with Andrew C, so refreshing to have a Minister who is tuned in and sounds like someone I would like to meet.
Can you explain Spiritual Health to me please. And why would you be concerned about someones spiritual health? Do the postures teach them something that is evil or unjust?
Camel Spider
03-Sep-07, 02:08
What I dont understand about religion .. They all claim to be tolerant yet when you look around the world almost every conflict has a religious dimension to it. And as for "Spirtual Health" shouldnt members of any religion operate on the principle of "When I want help I will ask for it ??", in the not too distant past I had a work colleague who would not talk to me. What was my crime ??, I was divorced and boy did he let me know how his religion felt about that.To me that just showed the pompous know-it-all attitude that SOME (and I emphasise that) religions and their members show.
Yoga harmful ?? .. as far as I can see it is a case of "my religion never thought of it so it must be bad", anyone who thinks Yoga is harmful in any way should be wearing a tinfoil hat in my opinion. The people I work with who practice it seem extremely chilled out .. more so than the Bible Mafia actually.
The bible is the biggest source of fantasy witchcraft and wizardry. The difference is most kids who read Harry Potter will know that fantasy is a healthy human pastime whilst many bible believers will take the words of a 3000 year old Taliban type superstitious scribe, as gospel.
Yeah, Jesus's miracles either were the figurement of the author's imagination or they were an accurate depiction of a cheap conjuror.
1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
So much for intereligious relations eh?
Does a person not free their mind and body and slip into a different spiritual plane when they are "Speaking in Tongues"?
Re your comment on 'speaking in tongues.' In the exercising of this spiritual gift, the 'speaker' is in full control of his vocal chords at all times. You can stop and start at will. You are in full control of your mind and body. Instead, your spirit (the bit of you that communicates with God) combined with the Holy Spirit living in christian communicate.
Sounds weird to the average person, but there is no trance-like state involved. Hope that helps
Andrew
Yogs is portrayed as a great form of exercise but it derives from Hinduism. Would take ages to explain but the series of positions used in the West for warm up exercises are all postures to the Sun god (baal in the Bible). I have studied it and I would, if I had a Church, not allow it either. Not because I am narrow minded but concerned for the spiritual health of those who practice it. totally agree with Andrew C, so refreshing to have a Minister who is tuned in and sounds like someone I would like to meet.
Thanks Sasha's mum...that does remind me of a case that I wasn't going to bring up. I try to be positive and not speak negatively about anything without cause, but it appears that it might be helpful to share a story about a woman we worked with in Glasgow.
My wife and I were appointed to the East End of Glasgow, Dennistoun, and we spend two and a half years there working with people. There was one lady who came to us who had been heavily involved with buddhism, yoga, Transcendental Meditation (TM), outerbody experiences and the like. She had also latterly got caught up with a cult like 'church.' To cut a long story short, these experiences messed up her life.
When you open your doors to all sorts of unusual spiritual things, things happen that you don't necessarily want. This normal girl ended up a physical, emotional and spiritual wreck. She had to go through the process of renouncing these things, but still, by the time we left, she was experiencing great difficulties.
So, when it comes to 'spiritual health' we must recognise that like our physical and mental health, there exists a state of spiritual health. As I said in my initial post on this thread, authentic Christian spirituality is healthy because it is about wholeness and fulness. Its about being the best version of you - something which we all would want.
Sasha's mum - you'd be welcome to pop by anytime. We live in Victoria Street, two doors down from The Salvation Army hall.
I know enough about the bible and its theology to know why it is the powerful book it is. You say it yourself. The bible talks about witchcraft. In my world thats just a name to go with genuine human emotions. You have to forgive me though. You have me at a disadvantage by believing the bible to be some kinda message from god. I have no defence against such claims.
Andrew missed out a bit when he was trying to justify the Christian position over yoga.
The way I understand yoga is, it's a physical excercise for the good of the body, but a by product of having a healthy body, is an enquiring mind. Jeemag described an alternative spiritual path as a result of yoga and meditation. Seems ok to me.
The bit Andrew missed out was that once the mind is empty it's then open to the influences of demons. Demons are scary spiritual entities who actually share our world with us and given half a chance will be in there, driving our lives like windows drives my pc .
I'm not saying Andrew or Saveman believe that, but I sometimes watch Christian television and there are plenty influential Christians who do.
Hi gleeber...yes, I did miss that part out. It is the motivation for me to share 'warnings' about non-Christian religion. If your 'spirit' is empty of everything, you leave yourself open. Like if you go on holiday and leave your door open...someone is bound to come in and take up squatters rights.
Why didn't I mention it? Because to the average person it doesn't sound reasonable. However, like many spiritual things, they are supernatural and therefore beyond reason. If you're a person with an awareness of supernatural things, you are more likely to understand that reasoning, but if you are not, then it won't make sense.
With regards to Christian television, I have to say that the average Christian is as confused about some Christian television as the next person!! :oD lol
Jeemag_USA
03-Sep-07, 13:53
Hi gleeber...yes, I did miss that part out. It is the motivation for me to share 'warnings' about non-Christian religion. If your 'spirit' is empty of everything, you leave yourself open. Like if you go on holiday and leave your door open...someone is bound to come in and take up squatters rights.
Why didn't I mention it? Because to the average person it doesn't sound reasonable. However, like many spiritual things, they are supernatural and therefore beyond reason. If you're a person with an awareness of supernatural things, you are more likely to understand that reasoning, but if you are not, then it won't make sense.
With regards to Christian television, I have to say that the average Christian is as confused about some Christian television as the next person!! :oD lol
The fact that you feel people are in danger from any other religion other than Christianty merely shows you as being non-tolerant and lost somewhere back in time. This is an attitude of "blind faith" you assume that because the basis of christianity was written down by someone a long time ago it must be true, and because i believe it everyone else shoudl too. And if someones head is empty the demons of Allah, Buddha or Hindu or something will get in there and these people will be lost.
As for my subject of speaking in tongues, it is done through both spiritual and demonic possesion and I might add rarely does it ever happen for real in a church, I have been present at local apostolic churches and seen it and you can tell the people doing are just spouting nonsense just so that they will be accepted into some innner body of the church if they can prove they have received the holy ghost. Christian Churches are hypocritical places where oneupmanship , jealous, envy, loathing and greed are always present. People are always trying to wear smarter clothes and hats than everyone else for a Lord that told everyone to shun material possesion and accept him.
I grew up being sent to the Salvation Army from about age 3 to 9 and then went to St Peters and St Andrews. I have seen my fair share of hypocrisy and sin in both places. Physical Fighting, Backstabbing, gossiping and worse.
thefugitive1993
03-Sep-07, 14:00
I don't think it's worth making a fuss about. I don't think he's in any way representative of any Christian church. He's a nobody whose making a stand against nothing. All they have to do is get rid of him and all will be fine.
Crayola, I rarely disagree with you, but....
This is highly typical of evangelical Christian belief / delusion. Where martial arts (as a sport), meditation, conjuring, yoga and many other relatively mainstream topics are frowned upon or worse. Derren Brown the illusionist "quit" Christianity because of the distaste his brethern expressed at his carrying out Satan's work
thefugitive1993
03-Sep-07, 14:05
Hi gleeber...yes, I did miss that part out. It is the motivation for me to share 'warnings' about non-Christian religion. If your 'spirit' is empty of everything, you leave yourself open. Like if you go on holiday and leave your door open...someone is bound to come in and take up squatters rights.
Why didn't I mention it? Because to the average person it doesn't sound reasonable. However, like many spiritual things, they are supernatural and therefore beyond reason. If you're a person with an awareness of supernatural things, you are more likely to understand that reasoning, but if you are not, then it won't make sense.
With regards to Christian television, I have to say that the average Christian is as confused about some Christian television as the next person!! :oD lol
Andrew forgive me if this sounds insulting. There is no supernatural. If there was, it would become by definition "natural". Science explains perfectly where we are from and how we got here. There is no celestial pilot.
The world is such a wonderful place, please don't waste any more of your time listening to the voices in your head.
Margaret M.
03-Sep-07, 15:53
Sasha's mum - you'd be welcome to pop by anytime.
But you yoga lovers hath best stay away!
But you yoga lovers hath best stay away!
LOL not at all. All are welcome at our place...a bit like Glasgow Central Station!
thedugitive1993 says: Andrew forgive me if this sounds insulting. There is no supernatural. If there was, it would become by definition "natural". Science explains perfectly where we are from and how we got here. There is no celestial pilot.
The world is such a wonderful place, please don't waste any more of your time listening to the voices in your head.
No offense taken. You're right. Manifestations of the Holy Spirit are natural in the Christian faith, but to everyone else they would be described as supernatural, thus my use of the word.
With regards to your comments on science, the issue is long debated, but does not disprove the existence or non-existence of God.
General comments, what I find generally intriguing is that it seems perfectly ok for Christianity to be disregarded as dilusional rubbish but that every other thing is defended.
Also, the fact that Christians are branded as such shows the same shocking intolerance as we are being accused of. I will defend your right to the death to hold the views you have, but just a little bit sad that we cannot be mature enough to have conversation without writing each other off as being guilty of intellectual suicide simple because a person has a faith in God.
In 1994, 72% of the UK population identified them as 'Christian.' with another 6% affiliating themselves with another mainstream religion. Whilst that 72% may not necessarily be what you could call 'pracising Christians', it does show that many people believe in God.
Perhaps those who throw around accusations of intolerance should look closer to home. I've said nothing on here to offend people, other than to simply explain my position as a Christian. Maybe people would be so kind as to extend some respect for that opinion to the same extent I respect yours.
Thanks for the conversation....its good to talk.
Andrew C
Jeemag_USA
03-Sep-07, 17:12
Whilst that 72% may not necessarily be what you could call 'pracising Christians', it does show that many people believe in God.
But Andrew the Islamic and Jewish faiths also believe in god, are they in the 6%
Also I don't think anyone is trying to be offensive in this thread, they are debating the point using their own opinions, inluding you and me, I am certainly not trying to offend anyone. The main point is the reason behind banning a Yoga class from a Christian Church. If you would welcome anyone to your Central Station, would you allow a muslim to sit in your congregation without renouncing his faith, or a declared Atheist to come every week just so he could listen in. If so then why not allow a Yoga Class in, if you or anyone is worried about their spiritual health, at least if they are practicing in your building you have a chance to talk to them?
But Andrew the Islamic and Jewish faiths also believe in god, are they in the 6%
Also I don't think anyone is trying to be offensive in this thread, they are debating the point using their own opinions, inluding you and me, I am certainly not trying to offend anyone. The main point is the reason behind banning a Yoga class from a Christian Church. If you would welcome anyone to your Central Station, would you allow a muslim to sit in your congregation without renouncing his faith, or a declared Atheist to come every week just so he could listen in. If so then why not allow a Yoga Class in, if you or anyone is worried about their spiritual health, at least if they are practicing in your building you have a chance to talk to them?
I was intenting to imply that the 6% of other faiths also believed in god of some description.
Understand I'm not offended, I don't take offense easily. However, as I said in my last post, there is a considerable lack of tolerance being shown to the Christian view. You were the one esteeming tolerance above all else, I was just simply appealing to your sense of justice and fairness!
With regards to my central station, of course everyone is allowed to come an sit in without renouncing their faith. Our doors are open wide. I'm a sort of 'get out there' person, you may have noticed, and I don't need people to come to me for me to talk to them.
What we are talking about here is the expectation that Christians should open the doors to their places of worship to allow other religions to worship in them. Yoga, as a part of buddhism, is such a thing.
A muslim cleric would not allow me to go to a mosque without taking off my shoes let alone preach from the bible; a rabbi would not let me in his synagogue without covering my head let alone allowing me to worship Jesus Christ; a taoist would not let me into his home without paying homage to his anscestors in spite of the fact that my faith would describe that as idolatory.
So, why the surpise then, knowing that Christianity has strong claims about the uniqueness of Jesus Christ, at the fact that I wouldn't allow eastern mystical practices in the form of yoga etc inside his building? Does it make sense to you that I would allow someone to invoke the name of a god of a different religon inside our place of worship?
But as I say, we would place absolutely no restriction at all upon anyone who chose to come into our building. We wouldn't insist the rabbi uncover his head, or the sikh or muslim do the same.
Lets take it a step further...would you allow me to sit in your living room for my hour or so of prayer each morning and again in the evening? My guess is that you probably wouldn't want me either :o)
I hope that at least people can understand a bit of where we are coming from?
yours
Andrew C
Jeemag_USA
03-Sep-07, 18:05
Lets take it a step further...would you allow me to sit in your living room for my hour or so of prayer each morning and again in the evening? My guess is that you probably wouldn't want me either :o)
You are more than welcome, if you can put up with the dog trying to jump on you all the time and if you promise not to change the TV Channel you'll be fine ;) I have recently had friends from Malaysia and from Ethiopia in my house, they can do whatever they feel to make them comfortable, I impose no restrictions on any man or women, notr do I look at them as any different to myself and I was brought up a Christian and occasionally attend an Apostolic church and also sometimes a Baptist. The reason I don't go very often is because I have found it very difficult to find a church that is not full of snobs, stuffiness and hypocracy.
To add to your point, most people in the west who partake of Yoga do not do so to worship, they do it for excercise and seriously doubt that most worship Bhudda. I remember as a child it was a regular program on television and my mum had the TV book, all she did was excercise from it. But its easier to take reasons to the extremes just to get what they want because of what I believe is intolerance. I woudl like to be a fly on the wall and find out the real reason, I suspect some other group wanted to use the room and a donation was offered, thats sometimes how churches work.
helenwyler
03-Sep-07, 19:39
34 years ago I sloughed off my envangelical straitjacket - had been through all the christian evangelist 'stuff'...singing in tongues, "backsliding", laying on of hands, Festival of Light, praying for someone who was having 'doubts' lest the devil should enter... etc... etc...
I've been following this thread but couldn't be bothered to get involved as I've rehearsed it too many times... and heard too many trite and cliched (for me) answers.
Jeemag's posts on this thread are from the 'horse's mouth' ...and I value them. From my experience christians feel threatened in their very being by any alternative version of...anything. They're psychologically 'primed' to see anything outside their doctrine as from the 'devil'. I've been through this.
I'm now off to my first devil, sorry yoga class since July, and BOY am I looking forward to it. I shall return gently physically stretched and relaxed (good teacher) by breathing and intelligent exercise, will have done a few 'oms', which are not trance-like but in my experience integrate body and mind after exercise, and be feeling peaceful:).............or maybe not...
WATCH THIS SPACE[evil]!!
You are more than welcome, if you can put up with the dog trying to jump on you all the time and if you promise not to change the TV Channel you'll be fine ;) I have recently had friends from Malaysia and from Ethiopia in my house, they can do whatever they feel to make them comfortable, I impose no restrictions on any man or women, notr do I look at them as any different to myself and I was brought up a Christian and occasionally attend an Apostolic church and also sometimes a Baptist. The reason I don't go very often is because I have found it very difficult to find a church that is not full of snobs, stuffiness and hypocracy.
To add to your point, most people in the west who partake of Yoga do not do so to worship, they do it for excercise and seriously doubt that most worship Bhudda. I remember as a child it was a regular program on television and my mum had the TV book, all she did was excercise from it. But its easier to take reasons to the extremes just to get what they want because of what I believe is intolerance. I woudl like to be a fly on the wall and find out the real reason, I suspect some other group wanted to use the room and a donation was offered, thats sometimes how churches work.
Give me your address and I'll see you in the morning. I've got a dog myself...I like dogs. :o)
You're invited to visit The Salvation Army. We're just regular folk. We meet on Sunday mornings at 10:45 and Sunday evening at 6:30pm. We also have a more informal get together on a Tuesday night at 7.30pm.
re the yoga, the positions themselves are positions of worship...kind like kneeling to pray. Sure...there may well be some hypocritical yoga practioners too lol
Lolabelle
03-Sep-07, 21:58
From my experience christians feel threatened in their very being by any alternative version of...anything. They're psychologically 'primed' to see anything outside their doctrine as from the 'devil'. I've been through this.
I'm now off to my first devil, sorry yoga class since July, and BOY am I looking forward to it. I shall return gently physically stretched and relaxed (good teacher) by breathing and intelligent exercise, will have done a few 'oms', which are not trance-like but in my experience integrate body and mind after exercise, and be feeling peaceful:).............or maybe not...
WATCH THIS SPACE[evil]!!
I agree with some of what you say Helen, there are people among the fellowship that I attend who get all carried away with thinking everything outside their own sphere of reference is of the Devil.
I am a spirit filled christian, speaking in tongues, and do what "MY CONSCIENCE" and the scriptures tell me.
I used to do yoga as exercise and I loved the breathing, very helpful as I suffered with asthma at times. I no longer do yoga, as I discovered belly dancing, oohhh, didn't that cause a hue and cry at first. Now most of the women in the fellowship are either doing it or have had a go. It is great fun and terrific exercise, and as our teacher is not into making it into a erotic dance but rather we practice a exotic tribal style, I have no spiritual problem with it. I am able to discern what is right and wrong, and the scriptures tell us, that if it offends someone else then it is an offence but if not, no problem! (To paraphrase it very badly) ICorinthians Chapter 8.
I find Andrews position pretty extreme but as he explains its a matter of life or eternal hell. Theres no death! I would do the same thing if I was him. Like he says he is just a regular guy and I know that from his posts. However, he discriminates on grounds of religious beliefs.
I think its good that this thread has evolved the way it has. Considering the usual stramash when god visits the org its been very civilised.
It's good too that Andrew is prepared to put his belief on the line. Theres not many in his position who would.
Who could argue with Andrew or Saveman or Lollabelle, the exotic dancer, about their commitments to life?
I still believe they are all deluded though and there are no such thing as demons and the supernatural, other than the contents of our own heads.
That doesnt mean I think Christianity is bad but it does mean I think there are some bad bits in it.
I also believe that religion feeds on that bit of our personality more commonly know as the unconscious. Maybe there's no such thing as spiritualy but only different states of the mind. ? Trances are just another manifestion of that aspect of our personalities. So is everything else we feel and do. Its all in our heads.
There is no loving God. Just you and me!
j4bberw0ck
03-Sep-07, 22:36
Seems to me that the minister concerned is free to prohibit anyone he likes from using his church hall. He's also free to suffer the consequences of his actions - whether it's derision, loss of congregation, or even an increase in the numbers of people who feel as he does worshipping at his church.
I might think he's an intolerant and ignorant nutcase, but then again, he might think the same of me. It's disappointing and frustrating for the people who wanted to practice yoga, of course, but they're sorted with an alternative venue.
Shame that at a time when we're surrounded by ignorant, intolerant religion whose adherents like to hang people (Iran, from cranes in front of foreign embassies, for being dissident) or stone them to death for being homosexual, or for a range of other "crimes" (Iran again, plus Nigeria, Somalia and a variety of other countries) a Christian minister decides to reject an opportunity to extend the hand of friendship and understanding. You'd wonder what he's afraid of.
Christian fundamentalism is no prettier than Muslim fundamentalism.
Jeemag_USA
03-Sep-07, 22:57
This got me to thinking about the way I am, and also about religion in general and how to define tolerance. So let me use this example.
Not too far away from my house, there is a Mosque and a Christain Church that are back to back, they share the same car park. Now if I was a minsiter of either one, knowing my own character, just lets say one day the Mosque had an accidental fire and their place of worship burnt, they could not pray there until they could get a contractor in to fix it. I personally would offer them a space to pray until they could get things sorted out, because to my mind they are praying to the same god even though they do not pray to the same prophets. This to me would be an extremely noble thing to do, and would bring atear to some peoples eye including mine. To me that is the way the world should be. Now granted someone can come in and say "Well if you think it was the other way round, would the Mosque let the christians in" and my answer to that would be, thats not the point, you do not give only to receive, it only takes one person to make a good action to have a good effect on others, if nobody takes the first step nothing will ever change.
Thats the problem with the world today and religion, and thats why there are so many people who do not want to embrace a religion, there is too much mistrust and loathing, and that I am sure is something no god would appreciate.
There was one church back home that I would not go to, simply because I knew that the minister there gave a sermon which spoke about converting people to christianity, and specifically to converting muslims to christianity so there souls could be saved, I couldn't believe it and certainly would not sit in the congregation unless I was given express permission to be outspoken and to challenge his sermon in front of the congregation. A mere mortal man cannot deem himself knowledgeable enough to tell people of Islamic faith that they are in the wrong and they should convert, to me that is trying to be 'god like' instead of being mere mortal. As a minister of a Church you can only set forth your stall and explain your wares and allow people to choose. But as hard as it is to believe, Christian Churches are still actively trying to convert people from different religions around the world. Baffling.
And Andrew, if you can afford the time off and the plane ticket, let me know, or I can send you round to my brothers house, you probably met him already :)
The Bible does speak about witchcraft but in a negative way and condemns it.Those who wrote the Bible were not bad but they knew not of what they spoke and they feared it.
Witchcraft is the study of the earth and the life and magic that lies within her. It harms no-one and helps protect our planet and her people from the ravages of unfettered industrial exploitation. We are a benign, inclusive and friendly community. Come join us Saveman, we will welcome you with open arms.
You can practise yoga too if you wish. Yoga is associated with Hinduism and Buddhism, two of the more earth based religions.
Let us cast aside our religious differences and build an all-encompassing community based on love and hope. Let us all be all inclusive, let us share our planet in peace and protect her for her children, for our children and for our chidren's children.
connieb19
03-Sep-07, 23:07
There was a discussion on the radio the other day about a minister who married a muslim couple in his church, it seemed a bit odd but maybe this will soon become more common. :confused
I didn't know Islam permitted polygamy. :)
Jeemag_USA
03-Sep-07, 23:11
Let us cast aside our religious differences and build an all-encompassing community based on love and hope. Let us all be all inclusive, let us share our planet in peace and protect her for her children, for our children and for our chidren's children.
Exactly what people need ,but I fear for a long long time it will be an "if only" ;)
Thanks guys for your comments. I have to say that I find these discussions very interesting and stimulating.
I want to share a good bit of solidarity with many of you who've had bad experiences in Christianity...I have had them myself. It is certainly true that churches can be filled with people who really don't have much of the 'spirit' and 'character' of Jesus about them at all.
The reason I believe this is so is that Christianity has felt the need to tone down its message. I'd suggest that if you take the bible as God's word then its difficult to tone down its message. When that happens, what you get is people who are Christian by name but not by nature and this I fear has been the church's downfall in this nation.
With regards to the comments on discrimination, I should point out that the ministry of The Salvation Army is offered to all people regardless of ethnic, religious, sexual orientation or other back grounds. We will come alongside anyone...anyone at all to help meet their practical, physical, social and spiritual needs. Let me give you the example of the London 7/7 bombings. From The Salvation Army emergency centre, worked chaplains from all the major faiths. The Salvation Army coordinates emergency response by faith groups. We can, however, only to that from a place of respect. We also work alongside many others from different faiths in jointly pressing the government for change on things we all agree on. There are many areas of common ground that we can find.
However, you cannot escape the fact that Jesus, and his message, is indeed a narrow one, yet narrow enough to encompass everyone! He said that it is only though him that we can experience a fulness of life and indeed eternal life. In Jesus, that is my own experience. I don't do what I do to become a popular person, liked, admired or given a high place in society.
Jesus himself enjoyed himself more when he was in the company of those the religious elite wouldn't be seen dead with. The theories of Jesus and Mary Magdalene may not be true to the extent that they were married and had kids, but they were the closest friends. Why? because when she was a piece of dirt that people wiped their shoes on, Jesus valued her like no other man did.
I do what I do because I love God, Jesus has saved my from myself and from Hell, and because I know that Jesus loves people. And so thats why you'll find that nearly every child in this community knows my name; why all the alcoholics in the town will know my face; why hopefully in time the drug addicts will come to us for help; why I'll be shedding a tear with many a family who've lost granny; why I'll be on the org getting involved with community life as long as I'm here. Faith in Jesus moves you beyond yourself to the needs and into the lives of others.
The challenge I'll give out to all is to move beyond pre-conceived ideas of Christianity, Churchianity and delve deeper. You won't be dissappointed.
thanks again for your comments.
Andrew C
Great discussion everyone. I am on a time limit here at the Portobello library, but what I have read on this thread rivals anything I could find in this great big room full of books. Keep it up. I'll check back in a few days.
I always get the feeling that the orgers who believe in God always think that the non-believers are trying to convert them and they feel they have to defend their faith, personally I couldn't care less what they thought as long as their beliefs are kept to themselves and don't affect the rest of us.
thefugitive1993
04-Sep-07, 12:33
LOL not at all. All are welcome at our place...a bit like Glasgow Central Station!
No offense taken. You're right. Manifestations of the Holy Spirit are natural in the Christian faith, but to everyone else they would be described as supernatural, thus my use of the word.
With regards to your comments on science, the issue is long debated, but does not disprove the existence or non-existence of God.
General comments, what I find generally intriguing is that it seems perfectly ok for Christianity to be disregarded as dilusional rubbish but that every other thing is defended.
Also, the fact that Christians are branded as such shows the same shocking intolerance as we are being accused of. I will defend your right to the death to hold the views you have, but just a little bit sad that we cannot be mature enough to have conversation without writing each other off as being guilty of intellectual suicide simple because a person has a faith in God.
In 1994, 72% of the UK population identified them as 'Christian.' with another 6% affiliating themselves with another mainstream religion. Whilst that 72% may not necessarily be what you could call 'pracising Christians', it does show that many people believe in God.
Perhaps those who throw around accusations of intolerance should look closer to home. I've said nothing on here to offend people, other than to simply explain my position as a Christian. Maybe people would be so kind as to extend some respect for that opinion to the same extent I respect yours.
Thanks for the conversation....its good to talk.
Andrew C
Hi Andrew,
I know that a high proportion of the pop. identifies itself with some deity or other, but then a while back they thought the earth was flat.
I respect the opinion of others, though I do feel a natural frustration when "talking science" to those who for whatever reason fail to get it; still I have a Christian friend who says he feels the same frustration when I want to "unweave the rainbow". The problem is, making that statement somehow seems to equally weight both sides of the argument.
I would be very interested to know if you would accept absolute proof that God does not exist (or as its hard to prove a negative; I know because I have fairies at the bottom of my garden, if the bible were shown to be total bunkum? I sispect, no matter how good the science, you'd go with the "delusion".
Anyway, interesting to get your view, its a subject I enjoy debating
Jeemag_USA
04-Sep-07, 12:41
The challenge I'll give out to all is to move beyond pre-conceived ideas of Christianity, Churchianity and delve deeper. You won't be dissappointed.
Not being smart, but my point is, if most people could do this we could have a Yoga class in a church without even having to think about it.
Those who wrote the Bible were not bad but they knew not of what they spoke and they feared it.
Witchcraft is the study of the earth and the life and magic that lies within her. It harms no-one and helps protect our planet and her people from the ravages of unfettered industrial exploitation. We are a benign, inclusive and friendly community. Come join us Saveman, we will welcome you with open arms.
<snip>
:D That's a generous invitation Crayola thank you....at the minute I'm on a spiritual journey of my own, but I appreciate the offer....
I always get the feeling that the orgers who believe in God always think that the non-believers are trying to convert them and they feel they have to defend their faith, personally I couldn't care less what they thought as long as their beliefs are kept to themselves and don't affect the rest of us.
I thought conversation was a two way thing. Being as it was a conversation on Spiritual conflict it seemed right to put a persepective in. LOL :)
Hi Andrew,
I know that a high proportion of the pop. identifies itself with some deity or other, but then a while back they thought the earth was flat.
I respect the opinion of others, though I do feel a natural frustration when "talking science" to those who for whatever reason fail to get it; still I have a Christian friend who says he feels the same frustration when I want to "unweave the rainbow". The problem is, making that statement somehow seems to equally weight both sides of the argument.
I would be very interested to know if you would accept absolute proof that God does not exist (or as its hard to prove a negative; I know because I have fairies at the bottom of my garden, if the bible were shown to be total bunkum? I sispect, no matter how good the science, you'd go with the "delusion".
Anyway, interesting to get your view, its a subject I enjoy debating
what? you mean the earth isn't flat?!?!?
cuddlepop
04-Sep-07, 15:04
Would this minister have objected to a group of special need's kids taking part in a yoga class in his church?
I ask the question because these children tend not to have any concept about religion or the devision's it creates.They do know however what makes them feel relaxed and therefore happy in themselves.
Would you deny them that pleasure?:confused
Would this minister have objected to a group of special need's kids taking part in a yoga class in his church?
I ask the question because these children tend not to have any concept about religion or the devision's it creates.They do know however what makes them feel relaxed and therefore happy in themselves.
Would you deny them that pleasure?:confused
I wouldn't deny them that at all, but I know of several other ways to provide the same effect...music therapy for example.
cuddlepop
04-Sep-07, 15:49
I wouldn't deny them that at all, but I know of several other ways to provide the same effect...music therapy for example.
While I agree music therapy is a good relaxing aid,Yoga is recognised by special needs professionals as providing a level of relaxation for Autistic kids that are noise sensitive and could therfore not tolerate music.
I do what I do because I love God, Jesus has saved my from myself and from Hell, and because I know that Jesus loves people. And so thats why you'll find that nearly every child in this community knows my name; why all the alcoholics in the town will know my face; why hopefully in time the drug addicts will come to us for help; why I'll be shedding a tear with many a family who've lost granny; why I'll be on the org getting involved with community life as long as I'm here. Faith in Jesus moves you beyond yourself to the needs and into the lives of others.
The challenge I'll give out to all is to move beyond pre-conceived ideas of Christianity, Churchianity and delve deeper. You won't be dissappointed.
thanks again for your comments.
Andrew C
I have managed to save myself from myself, without any help from Jesus. It may be different for others but I make the observation that certain sinners eg Jonathan (Sword of Truth) Aitken only seem to "Find God" again AFTER they have been caught and punished.
Anyway, on to another matter. It is probably true that most kids in the community WILL know your name. I have to make the distinction here about how many of them have encountered you voluntarily and how many have had no choice in the matter because it has been compulsory due to it being a school assembly etc?
I attended an end-of-school assembly in Wick South School recently, the main function of this was to award prizes and celebrate the school's achievements throughout the year. Your predecessor, Major Norman, joined the assembly to give a talk. He started off in very general terms, and I turned to my wife to comment "How long before Jesus comes into the conversation?"
Major Norman gave a good talk, offering sensible advice and, sure enough, at the end, it turned to Jesus and God.
My point is, meaning no disrespect to Major Norman or The Salvation Army, that the same, sensible talk could have been given without the religious content. Kids could be encouraged to be good and do their best just because it brings its own rewards. Why should a "carrot" of Heaven or a "stick" of Hell be necessary?
I know that I can live my life without Jesus coming into it and I find the concept of it being otherwise quite insulting really. I do my best to help my family and other people as best I can and I never ask anything or preach anything as a payoff. I have to note that Blythswood (for example) sent shoe-boxes containing toys, food etc to Eastern European countries but that a bible or some other religious material was also contained. To me, that takes some of the "good for goodness" sake out of the gesture. People should not be getting the idea that a "Western God" is better with the pressies than any existing God they may have.
I would have greater respect for religous groups if they could carry out the good work without preaching the religion at the same time.
A final word on Yoga. I have been told that Yoga makes you fart, other than that I have nothing whatever against it. I don't think that evil spirits hang about waiting for the sound of escaping wind as an indicator that the mind is also "empty" and awaiting a new tenant. I would say that the Minister has made a Boo-Boo in not allowing Yogi ;o)
I will, of course, be leading assemblies in all four of Wick's primary schools. However, I haven't done so yet. The children will know me through our JAM Club, which provides activities for nearly 200 children every week over two evenings.
With regards to those assemblies, we are invited to come in and lead Christian worship. I emphasise that we don't see this as an automatic right and that the invitation is from the schools and is part of the 'curriculum.' It is not the purpose of assemblies to go in an convert children...in fact, this would not be allowed. However, using the stories from the bible and other stories, we can share good strong principals for life and learning. The moral teaching of Jesus is second to none, I'd suggest. You're right, anyone could give a generally good talk with great advice, but thats not what we're asked to do! :)
I will also be giving a morning of my time every week to both North and South Schools, not to preach, convert or terrify, but to practically help those schools in whatever way they need help. Our motivation for this is the love of God, but the purpose is simply to be what the church should be...an aid to society, not a nuisance to it.
So yes, some will come to know my by default. I guess you'll have to ask the kids if thats a bad thing or a good thing! :)
On another of your points, scorrie, I know that its perfectly possible to live your life without Jesus in it...I did it for several years. Many do.
The point does again swing back to eternity with regards to how we live our life. There is no amount of 'doing' that gets you into heaven. We can all be good people when we're at our best...we can all be caring and loving and helpful.
The goodness that God demands is moral perfection. We don't have that. None of us do. In that sense, we're all in the exact same boat. We all have to face God on judgement day to give account. The bible teaches that the only way that God will find us acceptable is if we forget any notion of self-righteousness. Basically, man has broken God's laws and Jesus paid the price for it with his death. Because the penalty has been paid, if we accept that payment on our behalf, God is happy to accept it and we enter heaven on Jesus' merit, not our own.
Thats what the bible teaches.
yours
Andrew
thefugitive1993
04-Sep-07, 17:07
Comparing different religions in School, learning a little bit about beliefs and their background is all part of education.
Telling children nonsense about their immortal souls and using a personally preferred doctrine to do so is child abuse.
Does that sound too strong? It isn't. If the bible is taken literally, God is a jealous, immoral individual who is good with genocide, rape, torture and murder. If not taken literally, what is it "good rules to live by?" Yes if you are sufficiently selective.
Much that is beautiful has come from biblical influence, art, music, poetry, so read the book, get educated, enjoy the spin-offs, but let's not pretend its real.
Comparing different religions in School, learning a little bit about beliefs and their background is all part of education.
Telling children nonsense about their immortal souls and using a personally preferred doctrine to do so is child abuse.
Does that sound too strong? It isn't. If the bible is taken literally, God is a jealous, immoral individual who is good with genocide, rape, torture and murder. <snip>
It's clear you don't know God at all....
thefugitive1993
04-Sep-07, 17:18
The goodness that God demands is moral perfection.
Lets compare that with his own preferred recreation of genocide, rape, child cruelty etc etc. I'm sure I don't need to provide the biblical refrences.
We don't have that (moral perection). None of us do.
No we are human In that sense, we're all in the exact same boat.
Well to varying degrees surely.
We all have to face God on judgement day to give account.
Interesting to see how he will he explain suffering, his hideous instructions to "the children of Israel" etc. Or will he shift the almighty goalposts.
The bible teaches that the only way that God will find us acceptable is if we forget any notion of self-righteousness.
Pot calling the kettle black there then
Basically, man has broken God's laws and Jesus paid the price for it with his death. Because the penalty has been paid, if we accept that payment on our behalf, God is happy to accept it and we enter heaven on Jesus' merit, not our own.
What a bizarre concept. God is making the rules here, he (allegedly) made the imperfect people, which incidentally makes him imperfect, and then punishes them for being imperfect. Oh but wait there is a get out, he kills his son so now its all OK.
Thats what the bible teaches.
Then maybe its not a very good book
I will, of course, be leading assemblies in all four of Wick's primary schools. However, I haven't done so yet. The children will know me through our JAM Club, which provides activities for nearly 200 children every week over two evenings.
With regards to those assemblies, we are invited to come in and lead Christian worship. I emphasise that we don't see this as an automatic right and that the invitation is from the schools and is part of the 'curriculum.' It is not the purpose of assemblies to go in an convert children...in fact, this would not be allowed. However, using the stories from the bible and other stories, we can share good strong principals for life and learning. The moral teaching of Jesus is second to none, I'd suggest. You're right, anyone could give a generally good talk with great advice, but thats not what we're asked to do! :)
I will also be giving a morning of my time every week to both North and South Schools, not to preach, convert or terrify, but to practically help those schools in whatever way they need help. Our motivation for this is the love of God, but the purpose is simply to be what the church should be...an aid to society, not a nuisance to it.
So yes, some will come to know my by default. I guess you'll have to ask the kids if thats a bad thing or a good thing! :)
I assume that JAM stands for Jesus and Me. If so, that says it all. I expect that many kids will be happy to tolerate a bit of "religion" in return for some tempting activities. It is not right to ask the kids now if being force fed religious concepts as part of "curriculum", the right time to ask them is when they are adult and free to reflect on the matter.
It's clear you don't know God at all....
You don't know him either or you would not be judging others!!
thefugitive1993
04-Sep-07, 17:23
It's clear you don't know God at all....
Why where did I go wrong?
The goodness that God demands is moral perfection.
Lets compare that with his own preferred recreation of genocide, rape, child cruelty etc etc. I'm sure I don't need to provide the biblical refrences.
We don't have that (moral perection). None of us do.
No we are human In that sense, we're all in the exact same boat.
Well to varying degrees surely.
We all have to face God on judgement day to give account.
Interesting to see how he will he explain suffering, his hideous instructions to "the children of Israel" etc. Or will he shift the almighty goalposts.
The bible teaches that the only way that God will find us acceptable is if we forget any notion of self-righteousness.
Pot calling the kettle black there then
Basically, man has broken God's laws and Jesus paid the price for it with his death. Because the penalty has been paid, if we accept that payment on our behalf, God is happy to accept it and we enter heaven on Jesus' merit, not our own.
What a bizarre concept. God is making the rules here, he (allegedly) made the imperfect people, which incidentally makes him imperfect, and then punishes them for being imperfect. Oh but wait there is a get out, he kills his son so now its all OK.
Thats what the bible teaches.
Then maybe its not a very good book
...or know the Bible either.....
Your lack of knowledge of basic Bible teaching is obvious.....why try to debate about something you have no idea about?
You don't know him either or you would not be judging others!!
Who said I was judging him....did I say thefugitive1993 was going to burn in hell forever? That would judging him! (and anyway I don't believe in hell :))
I just pointed out the fact that he obviously doesn't know God. Pointing out facts is not making judgements.
On another of your points, scorrie, I know that its perfectly possible to live your life without Jesus in it...I did it for several years. Many do.
The point does again swing back to eternity with regards to how we live our life. There is no amount of 'doing' that gets you into heaven. We can all be good people when we're at our best...we can all be caring and loving and helpful.
The goodness that God demands is moral perfection. We don't have that. None of us do. In that sense, we're all in the exact same boat. We all have to face God on judgement day to give account. The bible teaches that the only way that God will find us acceptable is if we forget any notion of self-righteousness. Basically, man has broken God's laws and Jesus paid the price for it with his death. Because the penalty has been paid, if we accept that payment on our behalf, God is happy to accept it and we enter heaven on Jesus' merit, not our own.
Thats what the bible teaches.
yours
Andrew
The bible was written by men. I am amazed at the amount of anger that "God" possesses. He is clearly not morally perfect himself. I do not accept any of the bible as being inspired by anything other than the minds of men.
I am more than happy to live my life on this planet and then pass into the void. I could imagine little worse than having to live eternally in someone or something else's "heaven", I just don't fancy it at all. Please let it be optional ;o)
Why where did I go wrong?
...well it all started when you mentioned child abuse.....and didn't get much better after that...
Who said I was judging him....did I say thefugitive1993 was going to burn in hell forever? That would judging him! (and anyway I don't believe in hell :))
I just pointed out the fact that he obviously doesn't know God. Pointing out facts is not making judgements.
People are free to make of God what they wish, The inference is that YOU know God better. The bible is in a very poor position to be cited as a reference. It is an ancient book, we have no idea who wrote it originally or how many twists have been put on it over the years. Anyone who knows about language translations will appreciate that much gets lost. I just don't accept the Bible as being anything other than the word of man or men. There is nothing to definitively prove otherwise.
People are free to make of God what they wish, The inference is that YOU know God better. The bible is in a very poor position to be cited as a reference. It is an ancient book, we have no idea who wrote it originally or how many twists have been put on it over the years. Anyone who knows about language translations will appreciate that much gets lost. I just don't accept the Bible as being anything other than the word of man or men. There is nothing to definitively prove otherwise.
Yes that is the inference. But thefugitive1993's argument was based on his perception of the Bible, so I answered from my perception of the Bible.
If you think the Bible is in a very poor position to be cited as a reference then you'll view thefugitive1993's comments the same as mine because he has supposedly based his comments on the Bible.
We all need a good drink down the pub...make mine an orange juice ;)
I assume that JAM stands for Jesus and Me. If so, that says it all. I expect that many kids will be happy to tolerate a bit of "religion" in return for some tempting activities. It is not right to ask the kids now if being force fed religious concepts as part of "curriculum", the right time to ask them is when they are adult and free to reflect on the matter.
Yes, I understand that it does stand for Jesus and Me. And, for what it seems like to me, the children like their little bit of 'religion' as part of the JAM Club activity. Seems to me also that their parents don't mind it either because they send them along each week in full knowledge of what occurs.
It is also within a parents right to ask for children to be kept from school assemblies with religious content. So, your concept of them being force fed is on shaky ground. Sure, the children will evaluate it for themselves in years to come, like we all do. However, you can't evaluate what you don't know about!
People reject and accept Jesus, God, Christianity all the time. As you say, each person ultimately makes his choice. You have made yours, I have made mine and as far as I can see, we're both as 'evangelical' as each other in pushing our own agenda.
You see yours as the way to freedom, so do I. You see your way as best, so do I. You think people should have the choice, so do I. I see my agenda as being part of Gods, you don't see your agenda as being part of Gods or anyones.
yours
Andrew C
Primitive tribes all over the world lived and died without the benefit of the Jewish concept of the single God or the Christian corruption of the Trinity. Were they all denied the life hereafter because of their ignorance?
Each to his own is fair enough, I suppose.
Yes, I understand that it does stand for Jesus and Me. And, for what it seems like to me, the children like their little bit of 'religion' as part of the JAM Club activity. Seems to me also that their parents don't mind it either because they send them along each week in full knowledge of what occurs.
It is also within a parents right to ask for children to be kept from school assemblies with religious content. So, your concept of them being force fed is on shaky ground. Sure, the children will evaluate it for themselves in years to come, like we all do. However, you can't evaluate what you don't know about!
People reject and accept Jesus, God, Christianity all the time. As you say, each person ultimately makes his choice. You have made yours, I have made mine and as far as I can see, we're both as 'evangelical' as each other in pushing our own agenda.
You see yours as the way to freedom, so do I. You see your way as best, so do I. You think people should have the choice, so do I. I see my agenda as being part of Gods, you don't see your agenda as being part of Gods or anyones.
yours
Andrew C
Parents make decisions based on loads of reasons. Anything that gets the kids out of their face can often be accepted by some parents. There is a world of difference between a parent accepting religion tied to a "day out" for their kid and a break from the kid, and a parent actively seeking religious teachings for their child, simply for religion's sake. I would be interested to see how many takers you got for your religious message if you wanted to visit the child in their home, with their parents present!
Kids of a certain age will have been fed the notion of Santa Claus by their parents, it would simply be to much of a social pariah to go against the grain in this regard. Equally, a child whose parents decided not to let them attend school assembly would almost certainly be creating a situation where the child would be alienated from other pupils and be more prone to the bullying that goes on when anyone is somehow different from the pack. At some stage, a child will come to accept that their parents told them a little white lie about Santa but, hey, it was all for fun. There is a whole different ball-game to preaching a similar, but much more complex concept to young and easily influenced minds and, personally, I would rather see a scenario where people who want religion go to the place where they can be accommodated, rather than have to opt out of that which is being provided as standard.
By the way, you only have the freedom of doing what God tells you. I am free of such constraints. You follow the teachings in a book, I do not. I leave people to make their own mind up about whose spirit is the more free.
Yes that is the inference. But thefugitive1993's argument was based on his perception of the Bible, so I answered from my perception of the Bible.
If you think the Bible is in a very poor position to be cited as a reference then you'll view thefugitive1993's comments the same as mine because he has supposedly based his comments on the Bible.
People tend to take what they wish from the Bible. My point is that you do not KNOW God better or worse than anyone else. In the absence of proper evidence, it is merely one opinion against another.
Is it just me, or does scorries comments take the concept of Sunday School, Christian youth and kids clubs, school assemblies to the level of the Hitler Youth? Can I appeal for some normality to be brought in here? We are the Salvation Army..not the Third Reich!! lol
For the last 15 years, the children of this town have been coming to JAM club. What has that done? It has simply added to the quality of life for the kids...nearly every adult I've spoken to who used to attend as a child looks back with nothing but happy memories. As I say, lets get some perspective.
Sure, we want to share a bit of the gospel with young people. We have no hidden agenda there...people know thats one of the things that happen. Sure, we've sent kids to a Christian kids camp over the last few years - the kids have had the time of their lives!
But to get back to the main point, it seems now like we're happy for kids to go to yoga but not Sunday School or school assembly. Anyway....
:)
As much as I a trying to respect opinions, I'd want to stick up for all the adults in our organisation who give up their Friday and Saturday nights for the vast majority of the year and say: they do a great job, the kids love them, they love the clubs and we will continue to do them as long as parents want to entrust their children to us for an hour and bit at the weekend.
yours
Andrew C
The goodness that God demands is moral perfection.
Where is your point of reference that this is the case?
Thats what the bible teaches.
The Bible teaches us to shut the door on non-believers and that only 144000 jews will go to heaven, what is the moral justification in that?
Jeemag_USA
05-Sep-07, 00:26
Is it just me, or does scorries comments take the concept of Sunday School, Christian youth and kids clubs, school assemblies to the level of the Hitler Youth? Can I appeal for some normality to be brought in here? We are the Salvation Army..not the Third Reich!! lol
For the last 15 years, the children of this town have been coming to JAM club. What has that done? It has simply added to the quality of life for the kids...nearly every adult I've spoken to who used to attend as a child looks back with nothing but happy memories. As I say, lets get some perspective.
Sure, we want to share a bit of the gospel with young people. We have no hidden agenda there...people know thats one of the things that happen. Sure, we've sent kids to a Christian kids camp over the last few years - the kids have had the time of their lives!
But to get back to the main point, it seems now like we're happy for kids to go to yoga but not Sunday School or school assembly. Anyway....
:)
As much as I a trying to respect opinions, I'd want to stick up for all the adults in our organisation who give up their Friday and Saturday nights for the vast majority of the year and say: they do a great job, the kids love them, they love the clubs and we will continue to do them as long as parents want to entrust their children to us for an hour and bit at the weekend.
yours
Andrew C
I went to the Salvation Army over thirty years ago, I did love it, I had great times, bus trips, picnics and I joined the band, I wonder if Sarge is still around, I remember he used to teach me Tuba and drive the blinkin bus. I do have a certain amount of respect for the SA because they also do a lot for homeless over many many years also. To be honest I don't know why I was switched from going to SA to another Sunday School, I think its cause my mum switched where she was going to, I much preferred the SA sunday school. So fair play to you Andrew for standing up for your lot, nothing wrong with that. But I also remember my mum went to the SA and she did Yoga as well :P BUt even despite all of my grounding in the SA and Church of Scotland, I still would allow a Yoga class for kids in my church.
You skipped over my last reply to you as well, you probably had too much to read LOL ;)
Does anyone remember a highly critical documentary about the Salvation Army that was broadcast in the seventies or eighties? I don't remember the details, but I think the programme claimed that the SA were spending massive sums of publicly donated money on evangelism whilst giving the impression that it was all going towards sheltering and feeding the homeless. Anyways, it changed my attitude towards them and from that day on I stopped giving them money. I was the only person I knew who wouldn't buy the War Cry when they came around Thurso bars at the weekend. I thought I was young and principled. :lol:
At the same time some of the girls I worked with in one or other of London or Glasgow in the 80s wouldn't believe that the Sally Ann would come around Thurso bars never mind that people parted with good money in exchange for the War Cry!
Jeemag_USA
05-Sep-07, 01:42
Does anyone remember a highly critical documentary about the Salvation Army that was broadcast in the seventies or eighties? I don't remember the details, but I think the programme claimed that the SA were spending massive sums of publicly donated money on evangelism whilst giving the impression that it was all going towards sheltering and feeding the homeless. Anyways, it changed my attitude towards them and from that day on I stopped giving them money. I was the only person I knew who wouldn't buy the War Cry when they came around Thurso bars at the weekend. I thought I was young and principled. :lol:
At the same time some of the girls I worked with in one or other of London or Glasgow in the 80s wouldn't believe that the Sally Ann would come around Thurso bars never mind that people parted with good money in exchange for the War Cry!
Don't really have a comment on your first part. But I did used to object to the SA's tactics of selling the newspapers in bars when you were trying to enjoy a pint, playing on peoples guilt and I made my opinion pretty vocal at times. And also I guess it is a point, that if Yoga is not allowed in a Christian place of worship, then why should the SA be allowed to walk in to bars and solicit the War Cry, they are bringing their culture into my pub culture and I shoudl have a right to say they cannot do it?? Wouldn't that be fair?
Lolabelle
05-Sep-07, 01:57
Re your comment on 'speaking in tongues.' In the exercising of this spiritual gift, the 'speaker' is in full control of his vocal chords at all times. You can stop and start at will. You are in full control of your mind and body. Instead, your spirit (the bit of you that communicates with God) combined with the Holy Spirit living in christian communicate.
Sounds weird to the average person, but there is no trance-like state involved. Hope that helps
Andrew
Do you have the Holy Spirit Andrew, Speaking In Tongues ?? Just wondering.
By the way, I agree, speaking in tongues is nothing to do with a trance like or meditative state. I Pray in tongues whilst driving, it is the spirit praying, by passing my carnal thinking.
Aaldtimer
05-Sep-07, 03:01
Well done Crayola, I used to do the same. The thing I seem to remember about the 70/80s programme was that a high percentage of the money they collected went on uniforms and musical instruments.
That may or may not be the case, but that's what the programme I remember stated.
I've always thought it a bit galling that since the SA was founded on a TT mandate that they should seek their funds in pubs!
The Bible teaches us to shut the door on non-believers and that only 144000 jews will go to heaven, what is the moral justification in that?
Sorry Rheghead...the bible does not teach that at all. Let me know where you are getting that from and I will clarify for you.
Andrew C
Where is your point of reference that this is the case?
" But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do. For as it is written: Be Holy as I am Holy declared the Lord" 1 Peter 1:15-16 (cf Leviticus 11:44; 19:2; 20:7)
"You were taught, with regard to your former ways of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like GOd in true righteousness and holiness." (Ephesians 4:22-23)
"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." (Romans 12:2)
"Be perfect therefore as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 4:48)
There are more scriptures if you'd like them...this perfection is only possible in Jesus Christ.
Well done Crayola, I used to do the same. The thing I seem to remember about the 70/80s programme was that a high percentage of the money they collected went on uniforms and musical instruments.
That may or may not be the case, but that's what the programme I remember stated.
I've always thought it a bit galling that since the SA was founded on a TT mandate that they should seek their funds in pubs!
We've got more front than Blackpool! We go to pubs to sell our newspaper, the War Cry. We do have a ministry to alcoholics and this is the front line of that ministry. At the Salvation Army in Wick, we have at least 3 dry alcoholics who are now members of ours, some who have now been dry over 20 years.
The money that is raised stays in Wick and is used for a wide variety of purposes such as keeping the building so that we can continue our work.
With regards to the programme, it was before my time. But I'd say that the charity commissioners are very strict...an organisation the size of The Salvation Army could never get away with wrong use of funds these days. We account for every last penny.
yours
Andrew
thefugitive1993
05-Sep-07, 10:10
Hi Saveman,
The bible is an ancient text and susceptible to mistranslation, but unless we are going to retranslate ourselves, we have to go with what we have. Lets say KJ version and I'm happy with any language updates.
You questioned my biblical knowledge (in fact I think you went a little further). It is true I can (no longer) quote chapter and verse, but I can quickly thumb to the salient pages and believe me the stories, and their supposed meanings are well battered home.
If I seemed offensive I am sorry, but let me give some quickie examples and belive me I can give dozens. If you like I can do the references too, but then you probably don't need these!
Genocide in the Balkans is bad, genocide in Africa bad, what about if you were a Hittite though, not only are you slaughtered along with your children, but any women who have not "defiled!!" themselves with a man is for enjoyment (read rape) by the children of Israel. Not the orders of some tinpot dictator, but God
What if I had a message from a higher power to knife my child on the kitchen table, before I am told the plan is off, social services break in? No No I tell them Isaac understands!
I have a couple of strangers visiting me, a mob arrives wanting to rape them, so I hand over my daughter instead. By doing so I impress God.
I am a shining example of a chosen leader, my daughters get me drunk and trick me into having sex with them. "No no don't take me away, I am in God's favour!"
My wife gives me a piece of stolen fruit, so all future generations are to be punished unless.... oh I can't even be bothered with this one.
Let's have responses to the specific examples please!
Is it just me, or does scorries comments take the concept of Sunday School, Christian youth and kids clubs, school assemblies to the level of the Hitler Youth? Can I appeal for some normality to be brought in here? We are the Salvation Army..not the Third Reich!! lol
For the last 15 years, the children of this town have been coming to JAM club. What has that done? It has simply added to the quality of life for the kids...nearly every adult I've spoken to who used to attend as a child looks back with nothing but happy memories. As I say, lets get some perspective.
Sure, we want to share a bit of the gospel with young people. We have no hidden agenda there...people know thats one of the things that happen. Sure, we've sent kids to a Christian kids camp over the last few years - the kids have had the time of their lives!
But to get back to the main point, it seems now like we're happy for kids to go to yoga but not Sunday School or school assembly. Anyway....
:)
As much as I a trying to respect opinions, I'd want to stick up for all the adults in our organisation who give up their Friday and Saturday nights for the vast majority of the year and say: they do a great job, the kids love them, they love the clubs and we will continue to do them as long as parents want to entrust their children to us for an hour and bit at the weekend.
yours
Andrew C
Hitler? I suspect you are losing it here!! You are avoiding the real point that I am making, which is that kids going away to a camp are going to have a good time whether religion is brought into it or not. You seem to be trying to justify the religious elements via the fact that the kids enjoy themselves. The evidence I need to see is that the kids would NOT have had a good time WITHOUT the religious content. Many other events were set up for kids during the summer and were enjoyed without the need to embrace religion. You are tied to an agenda, it is irrelevant whether it is hidden or not, my point is that the "message" is tied to "help" in some form or another.
I quote two of the Salvation Army's doctrines below:-
"We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocency, but by their disobedience they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall all men have become sinners, totally depraved and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God."
I regard this as nonsense and believe that we are all born innocent. If anything is depraved, it is the concept of being labelled a sinner from birth who must repent or be punished. What about children who die before they have had the chance to commit sin? Are they doomed to be punished for being born totally depraved? The concept is clearly nonsensical.
"We believe in the immortality of the soul; in the resurrection of the body; in the general judgment at the end of the world; in the eternal happiness of the righteous; and in the endless punishment of the wicked."
Ah, the endless punishment of the wicked. What a wonderful way to celebrate your belief in the loving God. Even better to know that you will also be eternally happy via your own righteousness, whilst the sinners face an eternity of suffering. I can think of little that is a bigger turn off to religion than these concepts of ill doing to people, who just happened to be created depraved, lived a decent life, yet never embraced the loving One.
Hi Saveman,
The bible is an ancient text and susceptible to mistranslation, but unless we are going to retranslate ourselves, we have to go with what we have. Lets say KJ version and I'm happy with any language updates.
You questioned my biblical knowledge (in fact I think you went a little further). It is true I can (no longer) quote chapter and verse, but I can quickly thumb to the salient pages and believe me the stories, and their supposed meanings are well battered home.
If I seemed offensive I am sorry, but let me give some quickie examples and belive me I can give dozens. If you like I can do the references too, but then you probably don't need these!
Genocide in the Balkans is bad, genocide in Africa bad, what about if you were a Hittite though, not only are you slaughtered along with your children, but any women who have not "defiled!!" themselves with a man is for enjoyment (read rape) by the children of Israel. Not the orders of some tinpot dictator, but God
What if I had a message from a higher power to knife my child on the kitchen table, before I am told the plan is off, social services break in? No No I tell them Isaac understands!
I have a couple of strangers visiting me, a mob arrives wanting to rape them, so I hand over my daughter instead. By doing so I impress God.
I am a shining example of a chosen leader, my daughters get me drunk and trick me into having sex with them. "No no don't take me away, I am in God's favour!"
My wife gives me a piece of stolen fruit, so all future generations are to be punished unless.... oh I can't even be bothered with this one.
Let's have responses to the specific examples please!
I have read all these and must say I found it fascinating reading! however, Christ did say, 'I bring you a new law,' and all that went before was changed.
Whatever the facts of it, I do find it a very interesting book, raising so many questions that you would go mad trying to fathom it out! So - I've given up trying. I'll be the best person i can, dictated by my own conscience, and if that puts me in god's favour or out, so be it. I chose to be a 'don't know.'
thefugitive1993
05-Sep-07, 11:51
I am starting to feel a bit sorry for Andrew who comes across as a genuine fellow with a passion for what he does; and I know I don't like it when my chosen pathway takes a bashing.
The Sally Army version of the (Gentle meek and mild) Jesus is the least offensive, but the whole bible thing can't be reconciled with reason, and I have to say I'm in the Scorrie camp re provision of fun without the lord. The main reasons are:
1. I want my children to know the truth (please don't counter this with Jesus truth nonsense unless you can back that up with evidence, and using a work of fiction to reference itself is not evidence).
2. I do see many contemporary problems resulting from religious beliefs.
3. The (non-selective) message of the bible is intrinsically evil and I have already examplified this.
Jeemag I've sent you a pm
thefugitive1993
05-Sep-07, 13:29
I have read all these and must say I found it fascinating reading! however, Christ did say, 'I bring you a new law,' and all that went before was changed.
Whatever the facts of it, I do find it a very interesting book, raising so many questions that you would go mad trying to fathom it out! So - I've given up trying. I'll be the best person i can, dictated by my own conscience, and if that puts me in god's favour or out, so be it. I chose to be a 'don't know.'
Good for you.
I believe Christ also stated that he was not here to change the prophets' bunkum but to fulfill it. Anyway, the difficulties with the new law thing are:
What about the people who had butt kicked (severely) under t'old law and why would a perfect God who made perfect laws have to change them?
appleskin
05-Sep-07, 14:37
and god creatated light,cause he could,nt trust mankind in the dark
This comes as no surprise to me. As a yoga teacher, I have heard many similar tales over the years. A student I once had in Edinburgh told me that her minister had evicted a yoga class from the church hall when he heard that the participants were asked to empty their minds. He reckoned that if the mind was empty, the Devil would get into it. This was within the last 10 years, not 100 years ago.
Yoga is not a religion. It has nothing to do with religion. It is practised by people of most religions all over the world.
Yoga is, for most people, simple stretching, breathing exercises, and learning to relax.
Oh dear, that's me up on my soapbox again!
Hitler? I suspect you are losing it here!! You are avoiding the real point that I am making, which is that kids going away to a camp are going to have a good time whether religion is brought into it or not. You seem to be trying to justify the religious elements via the fact that the kids enjoy themselves. The evidence I need to see is that the kids would NOT have had a good time WITHOUT the religious content. Many other events were set up for kids during the summer and were enjoyed without the need to embrace religion. You are tied to an agenda, it is irrelevant whether it is hidden or not, my point is that the "message" is tied to "help" in some form or another.
Whats wrong with making faith in God fun? No-one is saying that they wouldn't have fun without the religious content. We share the gospel message in many different kinds of ways...simple as that. Of course kids will have fun at camp...the point I was making was that learning about God in that context would be fun.
:)
I am starting to feel a bit sorry for Andrew who comes across as a genuine fellow with a passion for what he does; and I know I don't like it when my chosen pathway takes a bashing.
The Sally Army version of the (Gentle meek and mild) Jesus is the least offensive, but the whole bible thing can't be reconciled with reason, and I have to say I'm in the Scorrie camp re provision of fun without the lord. The main reasons are:
1. I want my children to know the truth (please don't counter this with Jesus truth nonsense unless you can back that up with evidence, and using a work of fiction to reference itself is not evidence).
2. I do see many contemporary problems resulting from religious beliefs.
3. The (non-selective) message of the bible is intrinsically evil and I have already examplified this.
Thanks for the sympathy vote. No need to feel sorry for me...I'm a big boy now :)
"The Salvation Army....putting the fun back into fundamental." :)
Do you have the Holy Spirit Andrew, Speaking In Tongues ?? Just wondering.
By the way, I agree, speaking in tongues is nothing to do with a trance like or meditative state. I Pray in tongues whilst driving, it is the spirit praying, by passing my carnal thinking.
Everyone who is born of God is born of the Holy Spirit. You cannot be a Christian unless you have been born of the Spirit. There may be some who say they are Christian but have not been regenerated, but thats a different thread. And yes, I pray in a language that I myself haven't learned.
Hi Saveman,
Hi thefugutive1993,
The bible is an ancient text and susceptible to mistranslation, but unless we are going to retranslate ourselves, we have to go with what we have. Lets say KJ version and I'm happy with any language updates.
You questioned my biblical knowledge (in fact I think you went a little further). It is true I can (no longer) quote chapter and verse, but I can quickly thumb to the salient pages and believe me the stories, and their supposed meanings are well battered home.
If I seemed offensive I am sorry, but let me give some quickie examples and belive me I can give dozens. If you like I can do the references too, but then you probably don't need these!
Rightyo, that sounds reasonable.
Genocide in the Balkans is bad, genocide in Africa bad, what about if you were a Hittite though, not only are you slaughtered along with your children, but any women who have not "defiled!!" themselves with a man is for enjoyment (read rape) by the children of Israel. Not the orders of some tinpot dictator, but God
I'd be interested to get your take on the War Against Terror and the Iraq War that is currently taking place. Fighting for one's country and all that? Being ordered to kill others...is there ever any justification for it?
Some would say "yes, if your country asks you to go and fight, even though you may not understand all the reasons you should do it!"
Is it ok to kill hardcore Nazis for instance? Kill or be killed?
Yet if God asks man to do the same, that means he's a horrible cruel God? Hmmm.......double standards I'd say.
Who were the Hittites?
They were one of the nations that resided in Canaan, a land that God had promised to Abraham. The Bible describes their way of worship as filthy and degraded. Some of these nations (though the Hittites aren't mentioned specifically, but it is possible/probable they were involved) sacrificed their own children in worship to their gods.....
How would you deal with that situation if you had the power?
You'll have to provided references for the allegations of sanctioned rape because it's not something I'm aware of or can find.
What if I had a message from a higher power to knife my child on the kitchen table, before I am told the plan is off, social services break in? No No I tell them Isaac understands!
God didn't have Abraham put Isaac to death. But Abraham demonstrated his full trust and obediance of God.
I have a couple of strangers visiting me, a mob arrives wanting to rape them, so I hand over my daughter instead. By doing so I impress God.
At what point was God impressed with this?
I am a shining example of a chosen leader, my daughters get me drunk and trick me into having sex with them. "No no don't take me away, I am in God's favour!"
Again, what has God got to do with this? How does man's action reflect on God?
God can use anyone to do his will. He often used people who didn't worship him to accomplish his purposes.
My wife gives me a piece of stolen fruit, so all future generations are to be punished unless.... oh I can't even be bothered with this one.
Man choose independence from God. How can the results of that decision be God's fault or his punishment? Man got himself into this mess because of going his own way.
We've all got that choice.......independance from God or adherence to his principles.
Let's have responses to the specific examples please!
See above. :)
Whats wrong with making faith in God fun? No-one is saying that they wouldn't have fun without the religious content. We share the gospel message in many different kinds of ways...simple as that. Of course kids will have fun at camp...the point I was making was that learning about God in that context would be fun.
:)
You are swerving the points I am making. Let's just forget about it.
You are swerving the points I am making. Let's just forget about it.
Can't see that I am, but thats you choice. Thanks for your interaction.
Andrew C
Good for you.
I believe Christ also stated that he was not here to change the prophets' bunkum but to fulfill it. Anyway, the difficulties with the new law thing are:
What about the people who had butt kicked (severely) under t'old law and why would a perfect God who made perfect laws have to change them?
In Hebrews, we find evidence that when people who died under the old Law but had faith in God, that faith would be credited to them as righteousness. In other words, what God is looking for is trust in him for their salvation. The law was intended to show a person their need for God so that they couldn't stand before him with any self-righteousness.
God didn't change the law. As you say, Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law for those who come to faith in Him, but those who don't are still under the old law.
God will judge all by the 'old law' unless we have accepted Jesus 'fulfilment' of it on our behalf. This is what the bible teaches.
yours
Andrew
thefugitive1993
05-Sep-07, 18:09
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my points.
Firstly the "War on terror". As many have said before me, terror is not something that can be fought per se and I can't justify the current disaster in the middle east in any way, having believed from the outset that it was inspired by (western) greed.
As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind".
What about the very specific instance where I come across someone injuring another? I like to think I'd have the courage to intervene, my objective would however be aid, not the destruction of anyone.
Of course that leads on to "What if your country is under attack?" Whole different thing. I find it very difficult to see one country/race as inherently bad to the bone and another as righteous so I'm certainly not going to see me or mine led into conflict to mollify some numbskull politicians.
But the Nazis etc etc? I just can't grasp the just war argument. Gas chambers? I'm sorry, I haven't an answer. I would participate (In the pathetic limited way that I could) by showing individual moral courage. Killing en masse is intrinsically wrong on either side. I think God said something about that somewhere!
Am I a physical coward? Maybe, to a point for sure. I have reacted instinctively when the chips were down. I've run into a burning house (ineffectively) and removed a knife from a car thief (luckily), but I'm not brave so perhaps that colours my judgement.
I think there is little to achieve in us interpreting the bible in our own ways. Intelligent people compartmentalise in an effort to justify the nonsense they believe... Would you hold a knife to your son's throat because a voice in your head told you to? I know I'd say No, that's wrong, it's morally corrupt, you need help mate. I'm afraid that's going to be my take on all of God's ego-inflating tantrums. They are not acceptable anywhere else or even in his own rule book, so let's not make up a ridiculous slant to excuse them.
...and thank you for your replies... :)
I think there is little to achieve in us interpreting the bible in our own ways.
The best way is to interpret the bible by the bible. I clarifies itself. Also, the Holy Spirit is needed for better interpretation.
Is it just me, or does scorries comments take the concept of Sunday School, Christian youth and kids clubs, school assemblies to the level of the Hitler Youth? Can I appeal for some normality to be brought in here? We are the Salvation Army..not the Third Reich!! lol
Wasn't it Jesus who said "One flock! One Church! One God!":lol:
The best way is to interpret the bible by the bible. I clarifies itself. Also, the Holy Spirit is needed for better interpretation.
The Bible doesn't clarify itself, it is full of contradictions and falsities. The apocraphy was turfed out but they are just as much a part of the evolution of the Bible as the Bible itself.
The Bible doesn't clarify itself, it is full of contradictions and falsities. The apocraphy was turfed out but they are just as much a part of the evolution of the Bible as the Bible itself.
Perhaps you'd like to back that up with proof and I'll show you proof by proff how they are not contradictions or falsities.
Do you mean the Apocrypha? These are texts which never made it because they don't meet certain criterion of authenticity, which nevertheless shed light on the Bible and its history. They are helpful but not 'scriptural' if you know what I mean.
yours
Andrew
Lolabelle
05-Sep-07, 21:37
Everyone who is born of God is born of the Holy Spirit. You cannot be a Christian unless you have been born of the Spirit. There may be some who say they are Christian but have not been regenerated, but thats a different thread. And yes, I pray in a language that I myself haven't learned.
Then brother (as in spiritual brother), you are spirit filled as there is no other bible evidence of the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, other than the evidence of speaking in tongues. By the way, I think that is great. [lol] But do you preach it in your church???
Jeemag_USA
05-Sep-07, 23:31
The best way is to interpret the bible by the bible. I clarifies itself. Also, the Holy Spirit is needed for better interpretation.
I have to disagree, the bible was written in a time where most of its context cannot be figured out. Part of the problem with the Bible is that it has to be interpreted in the first place, as soon as you have a situation like that then it is open to every tom, dick and harry who believes he can best interpret it to you. You yourself probably believe that you can give a good interpretaion of parts of the bible, but it will either be your own interpretation or one you have learned through others teaching. The fact that the King Charles bible or whatever other english Bible you read had to be interpreted in the first place, leaves it open to fantasy and corruption. The Bible cannot interpret itself, one can only draw from it their own interpretaion, and considering it was compiled by interpreters explains all that. And still today every branch of christianity believes they can best interpret the bible to you. You only have to switch on any religous channelor TV program and you'll find some pseudo profit saying "When god said this in the bible, he didn't mean this, he really meant that" etc, and my answer to them all is "god never said anything in the bible" only people wrote down in the bible what other people said he said. Anyway, without going on and on, your coment doesn't make sense to me ;)
I am always amused by these threads because I have never seen a contradiction between the Bible's version of creation, other stories about creation or evolution. Some are allegory writen to support a certain point others are theory. What is a day to God, or for that matter what is God to our millenia.
I am not overly religious but I know a few people who are through many faiths from Christianity to Wicca, and spiritual people are that - spiritual. They are happy in their beliefs and who they are and it is difficult (if not impossible) to find arguments against the way they live their lives. There are many people who follow, or try to follow those beliefs who are not perfect and some are even less so and cause problems for everyone.
I find it amusing that so called scientist on these threads pick apart a Bible that has evolved and changed over time (The Old Testament is a very different book to the New Testament (although they do talk to each other)) but see nothing wrong with scientific "fact" and "theory" changing over time. There may be some people that think the Bible is a minute by minute account but for me and many other people it is allegory. It becomes a guide of ideas that are interpreted in different ways over time.
Over time people have found it is just as easy to pick apart most scientific theories as it is most religious books - that does not mean that there is not something to learnt by both.
Perhaps you'd like to back that up with proof and I'll show you proof by proff how they are not contradictions or falsities.
Genesis 1:25-27
(Humans were created after the other animals.)
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.
Genesis 2:18-19
(Humans were created before the other animals.)
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Another contradiction
Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Those must have been British-made Chieftain tanks if they could repel the might of God???
and another...
Hebrews 6:18
It was impossible for God to lie.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Genesis 1:25-27
(Humans were created after the other animals.)
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.
Genesis 2:18-19
(Humans were created before the other animals.)
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Another contradiction
Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Those must have been British-made Chieftain tanks if they could repel the might of God???
and another...
Hebrews 6:18
It was impossible for God to lie.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
1.There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. Genesis 1 is a detailed explanation of the six days of creation, day by day. Genesis two is a recap and a more detailed explanation of the sixth day, the day that Adam and Eve were made...it is not a second creative account. The recap is stated in Gen. 2:4, "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." Then, Moses goes on to detail the creation of Adam and Eve as is seen in verses 7 to 24 of Gen. 2. Proof that it is not a creative account is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam was created.
2.
You slipped up! There is an even more seemingly apparent contradiction with this passage that you haven't noticed. These passages (Judges 1:19 and Josha 17:18/Luke 1:37) have several plausible ways of reconciliation. Here are two.
The first way to reconcile the passages is recognising Joshua was informing his listeners that they had the power to drive out the Canaanites only if they would follow God faithfully and be confident in His promises. Judges chapter 2:1-3 says:
Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ” God’s promise through Joshua was not an unconditional guarantee that the children of Israel would possess all of the land they had been promised. It was conditional, based upon the faithfulness of the Israelites and their obedience to God’s commandments. After all, God never would force the Israelites to clear the wooded areas against their will. Neither would He force them to conquer the iron chariots. The two verses under discussion easily could be dealing with land that God chose not to clear of its previous inhabitants because of the disobedience of the people of Judah.
A second possible solution could be that the children of Israel did conquer the mountain country and succeeded in driving out its inhabitants for a brief time, but they were unable to maintain control of the cities. Thus, by the time referred to in Judges 1, the cities already could have been retaken by the chariots of iron.
As a final word, notice that Joshua said that “the mountain country” and “its farthest extents” were the promised possession of the Israelites. In Judges 1:19, the children of Israel did, indeed, drive out “the inhabitants of the mountains.” Unless we force the phrase “its farthest extents” in Joshua 17:18 to read “lowland” as in Judges 1:19, then there is absolutely no hint of a contradiction, and this entire explanation is unnecessary.
3.God cannot lie Heb 6:18 vs God appears to lie 2 Thes 2:11 1 Kings 22:23 Ezek 14:9. "Sending forth lying spirits" is not the same as actually lying yourself. In 1 Kings 22:21-22 we find a lying spirit - Here, of course, God does not lie directly nor approve of nor sanction man's lying. One could argue that all that happens on earth is permitted by God - He could stop it if He saw fit. He even permitted Satan to cause Job to suffer - a much more interesting case. But that does not mean that He is the source of all such things. They just afford Him opportunities, as here, to accomplish what He is after. As they are useful to Him, He permits them to continue for a season. Like Judas. Eventually, those instruments no longer useful, all such spirits and men will be judged by being cast into the eternal lake of fire. That is neither approval nor sanction, but merely proof of God's sovereignty.
I said to you that for every alleged contradiction there are reasonable answers. Whether you chose to accept the answers is up to you, but they are all clearly reconcilabe. Bring them on! :)
1.There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. Genesis 1 is a detailed explanation of the six days of creation, day by day. Genesis two is a recap and a more detailed explanation of the sixth day, the day that Adam and Eve were made...it is not a second creative account. The recap is stated in Gen. 2:4, "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." Then, Moses goes on to detail the creation of Adam and Eve as is seen in verses 7 to 24 of Gen. 2. Proof that it is not a creative account is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam was created.
2.
You slipped up! There is an even more seemingly apparent contradiction with this passage that you haven't noticed. These passages (Judges 1:19 and Josha 17:18/Luke 1:37) have several plausible ways of reconciliation. Here are two.
The first way to reconcile the passages is recognising Joshua was informing his listeners that they had the power to drive out the Canaanites only if they would follow God faithfully and be confident in His promises. Judges chapter 2:1-3 says:
God’s promise through Joshua was not an unconditional guarantee that the children of Israel would possess all of the land they had been promised. It was conditional, based upon the faithfulness of the Israelites and their obedience to God’s commandments. After all, God never would force the Israelites to clear the wooded areas against their will. Neither would He force them to conquer the iron chariots. The two verses under discussion easily could be dealing with land that God chose not to clear of its previous inhabitants because of the disobedience of the people of Judah.
A second possible solution could be that the children of Israel did conquer the mountain country and succeeded in driving out its inhabitants for a brief time, but they were unable to maintain control of the cities. Thus, by the time referred to in Judges 1, the cities already could have been retaken by the chariots of iron.
As a final word, notice that Joshua said that “the mountain country” and “its farthest extents” were the promised possession of the Israelites. In Judges 1:19, the children of Israel did, indeed, drive out “the inhabitants of the mountains.” Unless we force the phrase “its farthest extents” in Joshua 17:18 to read “lowland” as in Judges 1:19, then there is absolutely no hint of a contradiction, and this entire explanation is unnecessary.
3.God cannot lie Heb 6:18 vs God appears to lie 2 Thes 2:11 1 Kings 22:23 Ezek 14:9. "Sending forth lying spirits" is not the same as actually lying yourself. In 1 Kings 22:21-22 we find a lying spirit - Here, of course, God does not lie directly nor approve of nor sanction man's lying. One could argue that all that happens on earth is permitted by God - He could stop it if He saw fit. He even permitted Satan to cause Job to suffer - a much more interesting case. But that does not mean that He is the source of all such things. They just afford Him opportunities, as here, to accomplish what He is after. As they are useful to Him, He permits them to continue for a season. Like Judas. Eventually, those instruments no longer useful, all such spirits and men will be judged by being cast into the eternal lake of fire. That is neither approval nor sanction, but merely proof of God's sovereignty.
I said to you that for every alleged contradiction there are reasonable answers. Whether you chose to accept the answers is up to you, but they are all clearly reconcilabe. Bring them on!
Well you have just acted as predicted, you have waffled your way through it all. The verses are there in Black and white and they contradict eachother, enough said, no interpretation needed unless you want to argue that saying something that is black is an allegorical way of saying it is white?:roll:
Come on, I'm a bit more intelligent than that....[lol]
Well you have just acted as predicted, you have waffled your way through it all. The verses are there in Black and white and they contradict eachother, enough said, no interpretation needed unless you want to argue that saying something that is black is an allegorical way of saying it is white?:roll:
Come on, I'm a bit more intelligent than that....[lol]
I think the point is that there are reasonable explainations for apparent contradictions, but you are not willing to hear them or read them because you are convinced that they are irreconcilable. There is not one apparent contradiction in the bible that cannot be reconciled by closer study of the text.
I think the point is that there are reasonable explainations for apparent contradictions, but you are not willing to hear them or read them because you are convinced that they are irreconcilable. There is not one apparent contradiction in the bible that cannot be reconciled by closer study of the text.
So what is it then, did man come first or the animals?:roll:
I think the point is that there are reasonable explainations for apparent contradictions, but you are not willing to hear them or read them because you are convinced that they are irreconcilable. There is not one apparent contradiction in the bible that cannot be reconciled by closer study of the text.
See my answer above.
So what is it then, did man come first or the animals?:roll:
See my answer above
2.
You slipped up! There is an even more seemingly apparent contradiction with this passage that you haven't noticed. These passages (Judges 1:19 and Josha 17:18/Luke 1:37) have several plausible ways of reconciliation. Here are two.
The first way to reconcile the passages is recognising Joshua was informing his listeners that they had the power to drive out the Canaanites only if they would follow God faithfully and be confident in His promises. Judges chapter 2:1-3 says:God’s promise through Joshua was not an unconditional guarantee that the children of Israel would possess all of the land they had been promised. It was conditional, based upon the faithfulness of the Israelites and their obedience to God’s commandments. After all, God never would force the Israelites to clear the wooded areas against their will. Neither would He force them to conquer the iron chariots. The two verses under discussion easily could be dealing with land that God chose not to clear of its previous inhabitants because of the disobedience of the people of Judah.
A second possible solution could be that the children of Israel did conquer the mountain country and succeeded in driving out its inhabitants for a brief time, but they were unable to maintain control of the cities. Thus, by the time referred to in Judges 1, the cities already could have been retaken by the chariots of iron.
As a final word, notice that Joshua said that “the mountain country” and “its farthest extents” were the promised possession of the Israelites. In Judges 1:19, the children of Israel did, indeed, drive out “the inhabitants of the mountains.” Unless we force the phrase “its farthest extents” in Joshua 17:18 to read “lowland” as in Judges 1:19, then there is absolutely no hint of a contradiction, and this entire explanation is unnecessary.
:)
It is interesting to note that the inhabitants of Jericho have been found, by DNA testing, to be the descendents of the Jews who did not go to Egypt but stayed. Consequently Joshua wiped out an outpost of his own people on the orders of the Almighty. Archaeological research has also proved that the walls of Jericho fell quite some time before Joshua and fell as a result of an earthquake.
It is interesting to note that the inhabitants of Jericho have been found, by DNA testing, to be the descendents of the Jews who did not go to Egypt but stayed. Consequently Joshua wiped out an outpost of his own people on the orders of the Almighty. Archaeological research has also proved that the walls of Jericho fell quite some time before Joshua and fell as a result of an earthquake.
The world's oldest ice lolly stick was also found in the ruins of that earthquake. It was inscribed "Walls of Jericho" ;o)
Well you have just acted as predicted, you have waffled your way through it all. The verses are there in Black and white and they contradict eachother, enough said, no interpretation needed unless you want to argue that saying something that is black is an allegorical way of saying it is white?
Come on, I'm a bit more intelligent than that....[lol]
IMHO for someone who in the "A God Slot??" thread said they think the forums should be for Caithness only issues you do seem to like to talk about "God issues" and other "rubbish" that you think should be "deleted by the Mods". [lol]
Good for you.
I believe Christ also stated that he was not here to change the prophets' bunkum but to fulfill it. Anyway, the difficulties with the new law thing are:
What about the people who had butt kicked (severely) under t'old law and why would a perfect God who made perfect laws have to change them?
Maybe they had to go through one stage before they were ready for the next? don't you think it is amazing that the influence of one book has lasted so long and changed so much? Too powerful for 'just a book' written by men - I would think?And here's another question. Should the bible be taken literally or is it written in parables in a way that the people of that time could understand the message? This is what Jesus did, so why not the prophets of the old testament? Was Adam and Eve real people or was it just a story to show how a manipulative woman could ruin a man's life (oops, now I'm in trouble) Let me rephrase that. That man can be so weak that they'll do anything for a bit of the origonal sin.
Yogs is portrayed as a great form of exercise but it derives from Hinduism. Would take ages to explain but the series of positions used in the West for warm up exercises are all postures to the Sun god (baal in the Bible). I have studied it and I would, if I had a Church, not allow it either. Not because I am narrow minded but concerned for the spiritual health of those who practice it. totally agree with Andrew C, so refreshing to have a Minister who is tuned in and sounds like someone I would like to meet.I've only just noticed this post. I don't mind if it would take ages to explain why you're concerned for the spiritual health of those who practise yoga. If it's that dangerous I think we should know because a lot of people do yoga for exercise and peace of mind.
I've only just noticed this post. I don't mind if it would take ages to explain why you're concerned for the spiritual health of those who practise yoga. If it's that dangerous I think we should know because a lot of people do yoga for exercise and peace of mind.
I noticed a couple of different opinions on whether Yoga is a religious practice or not.
This guy says they are seperate:-
http://www.swamij.com/religion.htm
While this page gives the view that only Hindu's can teach true Yoga:-
http://www.classicalyoga.org/true_facts_about_yoga.htm
I suspect that people take what they wish from Yoga. I certainly find the idea that a position which used to be a posture to the Sun God would have the remotest connection now.
I find the idea of Yoga affecting anyone's spiritual health to be totally ludicrous. I suspect that the protestors are more concerned that people might embrace an alternative religion or simply become self-aware enough to lose any need for religion at all.
Just as an aside, I think that there were several deities called Baal and they were considered by Hebrews to be false Gods. The word baal in lower case is usually taken to mean false God. And, as the other man said "That's a lot of Baals" ;o)
I find the idea of Yoga affecting anyone's spiritual health to be totally ludicrous. I know people whose spiritual health has been improved by yoga. It seems to make them feel better about themselves, their families and the world around them. God knows how or why it works. Does it matter?
On the other hand I know it can effect your physical health. A pal's hubby had a horrible accident whilst trying to put his foot behind the back of his head. I'll get banned if I go into details. [smirk]
You've just made my eyes water, crayola. :D
I know people whose spiritual health has been improved by yoga. It seems to make them feel better about themselves, their families and the world around them. God knows how or why it works. Does it matter?
On the other hand I know it can effect your physical health. A pal's hubby had a horrible accident whilst trying to put his foot behind the back of his head. I'll get banned if I go into details. [smirk]
Sorry, my meaning was that I could not see anyone's Spritual health being damaged by Yoga. For certain people, embracing anything or anyone other than Jesus is akin to damaging their spirit.
Exactly the same could be said for most spiritual belief systems and, indeed, belief systems which deny the existence of any spirituality.
Indeed, I have usually found the latter group to be far more "committed" to their lack of Spiritual Beliefs and far less tolerant of the way others think than many who have deeply held Religious Beliefs.
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