Gun Crime

[rob murray]

With the recent spate of gun related killings involving children killing and being killed, does any one hold any views into where they get the weapons and why they are doing this to one another

My own view is that the UK is awash with small weapons as a direct result of drug related crime, street people involved in drug delivery needing to be armed to protect themselves from being robbed / attacked ie not at the "dealer / supplier level" ( big boys ) but at the front end of delivery.

In many urban ( and not so urban ) deprived areas, the drugs game offers opportunities to progress lifestyles and weapons are a key part of the game, a working tool in fact. Couple this easy availibilty of weapons ( supplied as there is a constant demand linked to the need for for delivery protection ) with traditional youth values of "saving face / gaining respect" and it is obvious that this an avenue where available guns will be deployed.

Whats the answer here, any thoughts ?

[Ash]

guns shouldnt be so easy to get a hold of, its awful


that 11 year old boy rhys that got shot, was playing football inocently and is now dead! is poor family!:~(

[MadPict]

Banning firearms in the UK was meant to solve the problem. I believe that some studies have shown the situation to be worse now that before the ban on legally held firearms came into place.
Many firearms can be bought legally in mainland Europe. With almost no 'border controls' in place they are easy to smuggle into the UK.
Another source of firearms for the criminals are reactivated or converted firearms. These are 'replica' firearms which are converted to fire live ammunition. It is not too difficult to do with a decent workshop. Many of the incidents involving firearms involve these converted weapons.

The cult status of guns amongst certain groups of teenagers through music and video is, I suspect, one element of their wish to have a gun to boost their machismo. Until it is banned from inclusion in music as a 'musthave' symbol (along with the misogynistic attitude to females) then the problem will continue.

But it is not just firearms - knives are a bigger problem. Kids carry knives to make them appear 'hard' and sometimes for the excuse of 'self defence'. Until the courts come down really hard on these people they will continue to carry knives and to treat human life with total disregard.

[Gleber2]

With the recent spate of gun related killings involving children killing and being killed, does any one hold any views into where they get the weapons and why they are doing this to one another

My own view is that the UK is awash with small weapons as a direct result of drug related crime, street people involved in drug delivery needing to be armed to protect themselves from being robbed / attacked ie not at the "dealer / supplier level" ( big boys ) but at the front end of delivery.

In many urban ( and not so urban ) deprived areas, the drugs game offers opportunities to progress lifestyles and weapons are a key part of the game, a working tool in fact. Couple this easy availibilty of weapons ( supplied as there is a constant demand linked to the need for for delivery protection ) with traditional youth values of "saving face / gaining respect" and it is obvious that this an avenue where available guns will be deployed.

Whats the answer here, any thoughts ?
With the media bombardment that our children get all the time, and considering that most of the popular programs and games glorify crime and violence, it is not surprising that the gun/violence culture is blossoming. Couple this with the moral decline discussed in another thread and we have an explosive mixture. It is too easy to blame the drug culture which is merely a symptom, not the disease.

[Andrew C]

I agree with you there Gleber about gun crime, drugs etc being symptoms of something deeper. In my few weeks here in Wick I've discovered that the town is slowly losing the battle to drugs too.

What do you think needs to happen for that to be changed or challenged? As I say on the other thread about moral deline, I believe God has something to offer, but if he doesn't, what is the answer?

[squidge]

I heard someone say on the radio that its the gang culture that children are drawn to. This includes guns and knives as part of it. The suggestion was that the reaason children get drawn into the Gang culture is because they lack "leaders" in their lives.... people to look up to whether that be fathers mothers, teachers, youth leaders or even charismatic politicians for example. The gangs usually have strong leaders and so young people are drawn to this and want to emulate and please their leaders more than they want to emulate or please adults in their lives.

I wasnt sure i agreed with it but at the risk of falling foul of the sincerity concerns I thought it was an interesting theory and others might have an opinion on it

[Gleber2]

I agree with you there Gleber about gun crime, drugs etc being symptoms of something deeper. In my few weeks here in Wick I've discovered that the town is slowly losing the battle to drugs too.

What do you think needs to happen for that to be changed or challenged? As I say on the other thread about moral deline, I believe God has something to offer, but if he doesn't, what is the answer?
I have to correct you. Wick is rapidly losing the battle against drugs not slowly. God has been offering the same tale for thousands of years and the world gets rapidly worse. The answer; look to St John the Devine. No alternative and sooner rather than later.

[Andrew C]

Gleber says: "The answer; look to St John the Devine. No alternative and sooner rather than later."

And who is St John the Devine?

[Gleber2]

And who is St John the Devine?
Is he not the man who wrote Revelations? Or should that be 'Divine'?

[Angela]

I heard someone say on the radio that its the gang culture that children are drawn to. This includes guns and knives as part of it. The suggestion was that the reaason children get drawn into the Gang culture is because they lack "leaders" in their lives.... people to look up to whether that be fathers mothers, teachers, youth leaders or even charismatic politicians for example. The gangs usually have strong leaders and so young people are drawn to this and want to emulate and please their leaders more than they want to emulate or please adults in their lives.



squidge, I'd agree that this explanation makes much more sense in many cases than the suggestion that everything is always drug related.

Gangs of various kinds have been in existence for a long time, but it's quite recently than guns have begun to replace knives. Lots of us probably belonged to "innocent" gangs of one sort of another as kids, but we understood that they were a kind of fantasy. Now there are many more people who seem to act out their -often violent - fantasies in everyday life.

I don't know enough to judge whether or not the seemingly far greater availability of guns is related to drugs, rather than to any other criminal activity.

I do believe that all kids need people to look up to, as role models to emulate and to desire to please. That seems to be missing in a lot of kids' lives, sadly. I don't think it can help when parents themselves at times show so little respect for other adults in positions of responsibility.

I also feel that our tacky Celebrity Culture, which dismisses hard work and decency as dull and boring, and instead glorifies brainless bling, is deserving of an element of blame....but oops....I think I'm wandering onto a different (if related) thread here....:confused

[rob murray]

Gleber 2 : yes violence is glorified through the media, net, computer gaming / films every aspect of modern media but violence has always been prevalent in any society at any given point of time, dont get hung up on modern media etc, but you miss the point. The drug trade / business is illegal, people involved are not protected by a police / court system. If some one owes £35k to a supplier and welshes on the debt what recourse does the supplier have take the defaulter to court ?? If a delivery person is robbed of £10k drugs does the guys "employer" go to the police and report the situation, if a suppliers "employee" is attacked and hospitalised does he go to the police ? LOL LOL...no point is there.

So how is trade protected in this scenario,weapons / guns, so what drives the demand for weapons...the drug trade....who uses weapons.....front line delivery guys....what is their mean age....teens..why do they get involved...poverty ( financially and povery of expectations.....) NOw suggest how we break this cycle ?????

[Dreamweaver]

Unfortunately the punishment no longer fits the crime - these yobbos know they will get away with (at the most) a few months in prison where they can can hone their criminal skills, study for a degree, free bed and breakfast, and so on. They have a better life than the one they have at home with their good-for-nothing parent(s). It's never going to happen but they should bring back capital punishment for these scumbags.

[Andrew C]

Can only speak for ourselves, but we're aiming at kids and youth. Tackling child poverty, lack of prospect, even in Wick, must be at least a start for the town before the problem gets worse.

With 180+ primary children coming to Salvation Army kids activities every week we have at least a bit of a chance. We are hoping to be able to work closer with schools by way of help too.

We can't do it alone though. It takes a whole community to join together. I am just wondering if any of these issues discussed on this board ever get beyond the stage of simply being chatted about?

[Gleber2]

Gleber 2 : yes violence is glorified through the media, net, computer gaming / films every aspect of modern media but violence has always been prevalent in any society at any given point of time, dont get hung up on modern media etc, but you miss the point. The drug trade / business is illegal, people involved are not protected by a police / court system. If some one owes £35k to a supplier and welshes on the debt what recourse does the supplier have take the defaulter to court ?? If a delivery person is robbed of £10k drugs does the guys "employer" go to the police and report the situation, if a suppliers "employee" is attacked and hospitalised does he go to the police ? LOL LOL...no point is there.

So how is trade protected in this scenario,weapons / guns, so what drives the demand for weapons...the drug trade....who uses weapons.....front line delivery guys....what is their mean age....teens..why do they get involved...poverty ( financially and povery of expectations.....) NOw suggest how we break this cycle ?????
Tis you, old friend, who misses the point. It is easy to make the very obvious points that you make. You are describing one symptom of a disease which permeates through our entire reality and never, since Caxton, has the media got to so many people. Hollywood was a reflection of reality and then reality began to reflect hollywood and so on and so on until it is impossible to differentiate one from the other and the process is accelerating all the time.
There has never been so much violence and killing throughout history as we have now and problem is expanding exponentially. It is not surprising that the gun and the knife have become the macho badges of the unfortunate children who live in the concrete jungles of our cities. They are encouraged to grow up as fast as possible and are engaging in audult activities at an earlier and earlier age.
Drugs are indeed part of the problem but only a part and if anyone on this forum can come up with an answer on how to change it all, as you ask, I would say they deserve the Nobel Peace Prize.
Ragnarock seems to be the only answer.

[rob murray]

Nah, you are hedging your bets here, you know that drug dealers / distributors have no legal means of recourse, so how is the "trade" protected...come on, dont avoid the issue here !! My key point is that policing the "trade" has created a demand for weapons which are now readily available. The kids involved in the drug trade then have ready access next step is using them in other situations..gangs

These kids swim in a cultural cycle of illegal activities / petty crime / drug use / gang culture, all fused together to become, to some sections of "society", normative behaviour.

This is not a new situation, the North West of England ( specifically Manchester ) has had a gun culture since the early 90's where drug businesses muscled into the rave scene then huge in the North West ( ie MADCHESTER SCENE = ECSTACY ) After squeezing out the small time amateurs they turned against themselves....with guns.

Your arguement is wholly deterministic,Hollywood !!!! and shall I say, rather rambling. Why dont you answer the point/s raised.

[Gleber2]

Nah, you are hedging your bets here, you know that drug dealers / distributors have no legal means of recourse, so how is the "trade" protected...come on, dont avoid the issue here !! My key point is that policing the "trade" has created a demand for weapons which are now readily available. The kids involved in the drug trade then have ready access next step is using them in other situations..gangs

These kids swim in a cultural cycle of illegal activities / petty crime / drug use / gang culture, all fused together to become, to some sections of "society", normative behaviour.

This is not a new situation, the North West of England ( specifically Manchester ) has had a gun culture since the early 90's where drug businesses muscled into the rave scene then huge in the North West ( ie MADCHESTER SCENE = ECSTACY ) After squeezing out the small time amateurs they turned against themselves....with guns.

Your arguement is wholly deterministic,Hollywood !!!! and shall I say, rather rambling. Why dont you answer the point/s raised.
Nobody is arguing your points. What you say is right but only part of the picture. Look at the whole universe, Rob, not just the bit that your binocular vision is focussing on right now.:RazzLOL

[rob murray]

Gleber, not really binocular vision, as you well know !!! For arguements sake, lets say a 14 year old kid, in a gang wants a gun for bravado etc and lets suppose the same kid has been over influenced by modern media sources ( films etc ) lets assume that the kid doent suffer any mental issues, ie a sane kid driven to own a gun. Where does he or she get it from and where did the gun come from in the first place !! Sorry the genie is out of the bottle here and we cant put it back in or cant we.

[Gleber2]

Gleber, not really binocular vision, as you well know !!! For arguements sake, lets say a 14 year old kid, in a gang wants a gun for bravado etc and lets suppose the same kid has been over influenced by modern media sources ( films etc ) lets assume that the kid doent suffer any mental issues, ie a sane kid driven to own a gun. Where does he or she get it from and where did the gun come from in the first place !! Sorry the genie is out of the bottle here and we cant put it back in or cant we.
What came first, the availability of guns or the desire to own one?