NHS - Sacred Cow?????

[orkneylass]

This week our poor cancer survival rates and poor stroke care have both been highlighted in the news. Whilst there are many caring, hard working and talented people employed in the NHS, there is obviously something fundamentally wrong with the way it is set up and run, probably to do with state funding and control. When is the public going to let go of the total myth that we have the best health service, and that it is the envy of the world??? A huge attitudinal shift from the public is needed if we are to go back to first principles and work out what it is that France, Germany and the USA are getting right and we are getting wrong.

[karia]

You are joking aren't you?

The NHS may be far from perfect but I challenge you to fall ill in the US without insurance ans see what you think then.

Karia

[Solus]

I going to say the same thing, without Medical Insurance in the states you face a horrendous time !

As for the NHS, the scheme where we can go abroad to other EU countries and use their facilities to get treatment rather than wait in queues, well I saw a photo last week of a coach load of poles who travelled across on mass to get hospital treatment here in the UK. Now, I am not getting at the polish, they are simple making full use of a scheme that works both ways, but come on, we need to get our own country on the straight and narrow before we start dishing out health care to others !

[A_Usher]

We need more education as to lifestyle and healthy eating at a grass roots level. You can have as much cutting edge treatment as you want, but if diet and regime is not addressed, it will still exist.

Countries such as the Scandinavian ones, have much more funding, BUT on the downside higher taxes, which do you want?

[anneoctober]

was going to reply "have our cake and eat it " however in the light of our good doctor responding........... better make it an organic apple.....:)
It's like everything else in our society today, total melt down. If only someone had the answer. :(

[orkneylass]

So how do you explain the poor outcomes compared to countries that spend less per head than we do? My suspicions are right - myths about our wonderful NHS are hard for people to let go of.

[orkneylass]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/21/ncancer121.xml

http://www.bowgroup.org/harriercollectionitems/HealthStandards.pdf

[Margaret M.]

When is the public going to let go of the total myth that we have the best health service, and that it is the envy of the world???

I wonder how many countries are under the delusion that they have the best health care in the world. I know the U.S. and U.K. are but neither one ranked impressively in the world health care arena. I think the U.S. was 37th and the U.K. wasn't much higher, 29th, I think it was. These two countries could benefit from paying the system in France and Italy a visit.

[orkneylass]

France especially, I remember a few years ago the NHS could not cope with the demand for hip replacement operations and were sending people to France. They were interviewing people in the street in a rather negative way, asking "would you put up with being sent to France for an operation"...I wish they'd interviewed me - my answer would have been "If only we could insist on it".

[crayola]

The German and French 'health services' are pinnacles of excellence and their structure and organisation are very, very different from ours. If ours is so great why has no-one copied it?

[orkneylass]

Too right Crayola but my point is that until people let go of the powerful myths about our NHS, and political pressure for radical change develops, we're stuck with it. Everyone should be a health nut out of fear of ending up in the lottery of the NHS!!!!

[Angela]

The NHS was a wonderful thing to begin with, but I don't think the present structure and funding can possibly keep up with the demands we now make on it and the expectations we have.

I certainly don't believe the US model is anything to emulate! However, I don't think we can realistically continue with a health service that must always be provided free at the point of need.

I know that most of us do pay for the NHS through our taxes, so in that sense it's not a free service anyway. Higher taxes could obviously raise more money, but not everyone is willing to pay more in tax, and I do think it would be better to embrace a model which involves an element of health insurance.

I agree that we should all take responsibility for our own wellbeing, but I'm reluctant to conclude that ill-health and the need to use the NHS comes solely from a self-indulgent lifestyle. Sadly, many people become ill or have accidents, through no fault of their own.

However, I don't much sympathise with folk who don't bother about looking after themselves and constantly expect our health service to pick up the pieces, at no extra cost to themselves. Sometimes people place no value on something just because it IS free. :(

[orkneylass]

You are right Angela, the NHS is not "free"...and a famous quote goes along the lines "if you think health insurance is expensive then wait until you see how expensive free healthcare is". The point is (see one of my links posted previously) it is not about how much money is spent but how the system is structured.

However, "free " or not, if I developed, for example, breast cancer, I have no way of knowing which centres offer the best outcomes, very little choice when it comes to treatments, no choice over which doctor treats me in which centre...I just have to take what I'm given...and the statistics show that lots of people are getting services with outcomes well below what we should be achieving. The stress of all of that ie the lack of confidence I would feel in the NHS, would probably make me much iller. If someone said I could be sent to France or Germany for my treatment - I'd be off like a shot.

[Fran]

I personally think we are very lucky with our national health service in Caithness, even if it does mean travelling to raigmore hospital in inverness at times. We do not suffer the postcode medication problem. I know for a fact we get the best of cancer drugs, unlike someplaces.
It is unfortuante that there is a high number of deaths due to strokes and cancer. with cancer, the disease can be detected too late, not the doctors fault, and causes death.
We are lucky in caithness to have macmillan cancer care nurses, unlike many other places. Cancer patients are given the best of care and treatment to allow them to live the time they have left as painfree and comfortable as possible.This care is also given to their carer/family. Many cancer patients Im sure, have lived longer due to this great care.
As for stroke patients, we have stroke nurses, cardiac nurses, support groups and excellent care for them too.
Our hospital is very clean and comfortable, with well qualified and caring doctors and nurses. We have an excellent A and E department. We also have a patients council who meet to deal with complaints and make proposals to the hospital to improve things for patients.

[Aaldtimer]

You are right Angela, the NHS is not "free"...and a famous quote goes along the lines "if you think health insurance is expensive then wait until you see how expensive free healthcare is". The point is (see one of my links posted previously) it is not about how much money is spent but how the system is structured.

However, "free " or not, if I developed, for example, breast cancer, I have no way of knowing which centres offer the best outcomes, very little choice when it comes to treatments, no choice over which doctor treats me in which centre...I just have to take what I'm given...and the statistics show that lots of people are getting services with outcomes well below what we should be achieving. The stress of all of that ie the lack of confidence I would feel in the NHS, would probably make me much iller. If someone said I could be sent to France or Germany for my treatment - I'd be off like a shot.
Acyually, Orkneylass, I think you're quite wrong there. I'm sure you can ask your GP where the best treatment is available and you can chose whether to avail yourself of it or not. It may mean moving south, and considerable inconveience, but I think the facility is there if you chose to use it.

[Jeemag_USA]

So how do you explain the poor outcomes compared to countries that spend less per head than we do? My suspicions are right - myths about our wonderful NHS are hard for people to let go of.

I'm with some of the above, your welcome to come over to the USA and try getting sick, I am scared to get sick. No offence to you personally but i get tired of hearing people hitting on the NHS, more countries should be like the UK and at least have a healthcare system.

[Alice in Blunderland]

I have read this thread with interest and my one thought is this.....

Should I collapse tomorrow as I go about my day with say a heart attack or stroke or, fall seriously ill with any ailment I know that whether the politics be right or wrong at the top I want to be rushed to the NEAREST NHS hospital.

I want treatment started straight away and would like to know that at least I was being cared for whether or not the statistics are right or wrong good or bad .

Our system agreed may not be the best in the world but at least it is a system which offers care to all who walk through the door. :)

[orkneylass]

That's great Alice but I'm telling you that your chances of walking back out of that door again are far better in many other countries that also have universally available services.

[Anne x]

That's great Alice but I'm telling you that your chances of walking back out of that door again are far better in many other countries that also have universally available services.

thats good then tell that story to the people who at the moment are beginning a long stretch of chemotherapy followed by surgery and have to put there trust in the NHS and to add to that are probably scared out of there wits , and are grateful for the care shown by cancer nurses consultants oconolgy etc who help to make the path ahead a little easier

[NickInTheNorth]

An interesting thread this one.

I have tried several times to articulate my thoughts on the subject, and am finding it very difficult to do so.

In essence I think I agree with orkneylass, but I would absolutely not wish to see the NHS disappear. It needs a new vision for a new century. We need to remember the background to the founding of the NHS and get back to those priciples of care free to all regardless of their means.

However I am sure that it was never envisaged that the NHS would be offering - for example - one free IVF cycle available to all women. I feel desperately sorry for couples that cannot conceive naturally, but is that what the NHS is for?

Should the NHS be trying to almost "cure" old age? People get old and die. It is a fact of life.

However I know that those thoughts will quite rightly upset some folks, and in that is I think the problem. As medical technology advances and increases in cost I guess no-one is really prepared to withdraw a treatment which many would feel should be available. So do we need to take an alternative approach, and rather than try to limit what the NHS does should we perhaps just ensure that the work carried out by the NHS is fully funded regardless of cost?

[orkneylass]

Very interesting point - with limited resoursces prioritising to do well what is necessary. What do others think?

[Whitewater]

The NHS I guess could be run better, (tell me something that is perfect). I have been lucky most of my life, no illness or serious accidents worth talking about. Early this year I got ill, muscular and joint problems, couldn't sit or stand, unable to drive the car as far as Thurso without getting out to walk, became very weak all over.

My treatment from the NHS has been excellent, I have had CT scans, ultra sound examinations, 14 blood tests, 2 blood cultures, a biopsy on an artery in my head, and a lumber puncture. Luckily for me they have found nothing wrong, and I am now returning to full fitness. However, I am curious regarding the cause and the consultant informed me that he did could not find a reason, it was perhaps a viral infection which I picked up. Apparently this is a fairly common occurance.

On the result of my recent experience I have found the NHS to have been very thorough with the investigation and I have had no expence spared in the search for a diagnosis. I can only rate the system as excellent.

[golach]

I have been treated by the NHS for the last 67 years and I cannot complain about the service I and my family have received.
Its not perfect but in this life whats is. What would you replace it with? I dont know:(

[fred]

Very interesting point - with limited resoursces prioritising to do well what is necessary. What do others think?

Priorities all wrong.

I see people pushing beds down the A9 to make money to buy a scanner for a hospital, people absail down tall buildings to get money to buy a dialysis machine, charity shops to pay for cancer research.

You don't see the RAF holding a car boot sale to make some money to buy bombs with.

[Anne x]

yes fred point taken and understand that
that will eventually be decided by the ballot box !!!!

but when people put there trust in NHS what actual choice do they have if you opt for treatment or not
private !!! maybe well not every one has that option or can afford it so what then ?

[JAWS]

The problem with the NHS is with the organisation, or rather the lack of it, and with the way it is managed right at the top.
The Government are of the opinion that a Gimmick a Day Keeps the Critics Away. The Quangos set up to organise the various Trusts are more interested in covering their own backs by jumping to the latest Government demand which probably contradicts the one issued two days ago.
Meanwhile, the poor staff who actually have to deal with patients are left short handed and lacking in the time they would like to give providing patient care.
From personal experience, they do the very best they can with the time and resources they have available to them.

The Health Consumer Powerhouse, a European Group pushing for better healthcare, based in Sweden, published a report covering healthcare in the different Countries of the EU.
They placed the NHS 15th of the 26 places place on the list commenting that it was a "mediocre overall performer". As far as I can see they have no particular reason to rate the NHS other than fairly.
For those who like figures etc:-
http://www.healthpowerhouse.com/media/EHCI2006.pdf
and should anybody wish to read the full version of the report in detail (no I haven't):-
http://healthpowerhouse.com/media/RaportEHCI2006en.pdf