View Full Version : Well I'm going to say it.
My thoughts go out to the friends and family of the young man who was executed on the London Underground on Friday.
They must be thinking that with the lack of public and media outrage, that because our leader didn't rush infront of the cameras to feign sincerity with crefully planned pauses that his life must have been somehow less precious than the life of someone killed on the 7th of July.
It wasn't.
.
The person in question was wearing a heavy winter coat in summer. When challenged by the police, at the height of a security alert, he refused to respond and ran away. He had been living here for long enough to know that he had nothing to fear from the law. It was a tragic but wholly justifiable act in the circumstances.
The person in question was wearing a heavy winter coat in summer. When challenged by the police, at the height of a security alert, he refused to respond and ran away. He had been living here for long enough to know that he had nothing to fear from the law. It was a tragic but wholly justifiable act in the circumstances.
Wearing a heavy coat is a capital offence now?
He wasn't challenged by the police, I've known a few policemen in my time and most of them are nice people who work hard to preserve the peace for little reward and no thanks. He was challenged by three people dressed like gang members and carrying automatic weapons, does that sound like the police to you?
Policemen would never hold a man on the floor while one of them pumped five bullets into the back of his head even if they knew for certain the man was guilty of a crime, those wern't policemen those were state hired thugs.
Margaret M.
24-Jul-05, 14:31
It is truly sad and I do feel for his family and friends. I try not to speculate about situations when all I know about it comes from the media. However, seemingly this man was seen leaving one of the houses the police had under surveillance. Although wearing a thick coat is not a capital offence, it did make him look even more suspicious. I can only imagine the pressure the police are under at the moment.
those wern't policemen those were state hired thugs.
Had there been a bomb under that coat, they would be heroes. It is very easy for us to sit back and judge. The bottom line is they are human and will unfortunately make mistakes -- obviously a very tragic one here. In my opinion, the terrorists can take credit for the loss of this young man's life.
It is truly sad and I do feel for his family and friends. I try not to speculate about situations when all I know about it comes from the media. However, seemingly this man was seen leaving one of the houses the police had under surveillance. Although wearing a thick coat is not a capital offence, it did make him look even more suspicious. I can only imagine the pressure the police are under at the moment.
I don't like to speculate either but according to his brother on the radio this morning he would have just got off his bus when the incident occured and after listening to the official reports immediately after the shooting, like "we did all we could to revive him but it was too late" I'm inclined to believe him.
Had there been a bomb under that coat, they would be heroes. It is very easy for us to sit back and judge. The bottom line is they are human and will unfortunately make mistakes -- obviously a very tragic one here. In my opinion, the terrorists can take credit for the loss of this young man's life.
You don't shoot someone five times in the head by mistake. The man was already in police cusdody when he was shot. He was pinned to the floor face down with two officers holding his arms it would have taken only a second to check for a bomb.
The way to stop the terrorism isn't to shoot everyone who is black and might have a bomb just in case, that doesn't defeat terrorism, that is terrorism.
The person in question was wearing a heavy winter coat in summer. When challenged by the police, at the height of a security alert, he refused to respond and ran away. He had been living here for long enough to know that he had nothing to fear from the law. It was a tragic but wholly justifiable act in the circumstances.
I just wonder what your response would have been if the person had been one of your family members? Tragic but justifiable? I somehow doubt it. What if the guy were Joe Bloggs, family man from London, leaving a wife and four kids behind and complete with front page spread on every paper in the land showing the grieving widow. Cremated in a Tottenham strip and ashes spread in the centre circle at WhiteHart Lane. I would imagine a bit more of an outcry than there has been over just some guy from Brazil with a parka on in summer. Came out of a house the police were watching, must be guilty then, if not of bombing then of something else. At the height of a security alert perhaps HE was scared. I would say there was something unlawful about being bundled to the floor of a train and "executed" with five bullets. Even a slaughterhouse will do the job with one shot.
[You don't shoot someone five times in the head by mistake. The man was already in police cusdody when he was shot. He was pinned to the floor face down with two officers holding his arms it would have taken only a second to check for a bomb.
The way to stop the terrorism isn't to shoot everyone who is black and might have a bomb just in case, that doesn't defeat terrorism, that is terrorism.
This is what gets me. No matter how suspicious the man was acting, if they had him pinned to the ground, why did they have to shoot him? Not once - but five times? I know they're under a lot of strain and probably very angry, but it sounds to me that if some one is that trigger happy, they shouldn't be in that job!
captain chaos
24-Jul-05, 19:49
but it sounds to me that if some one is that trigger happy, they shouldn't be in that job!
I would rather a police man/woman who was prepared to pull the trigger than one who hesitates and allows a bomber to denote his bomb.
He who hesitates is dead, whether it’s the bomber or the cop.
I am not condoning what has happened and an enquiry will establish the true events.
Any loss of life is terrible and when it’s an innocent life it’s that much worse
We are fortunate living where we do. The worst thing likely to happen to us on a commute is a stag leaping in front of the car.
I can only imagine what it must be like to go to work every morning wondering if you will end up in the middle of a bomb scare or the real thing. It's easy to pontificate about police states and so forth when you don't have to live with the consequences of letting a potential bomber escape into your neighbourhood.
[quote="fred[
Wearing a heavy coat is a capital offence now?
He wasn't challenged by the police, I've known a few policemen in my time and most of them are nice people who work hard to preserve the peace for little reward and no thanks. He was challenged by three people dressed like gang members and carrying automatic weapons, does that sound like the police to you?
Policemen would never hold a man on the floor while one of them pumped five bullets into the back of his head even if they knew for certain the man was guilty of a crime, those wern't policemen those were state hired thugs.[/quote]
Where do you get your facts, from the Media? As far as I am concerned lets wait until the public enquiry comes out then point the accusing finger, in my opinion Fred, you are very quick to condem but you are very slow at offering tangible solutions. I personally dont have a solution, but I think our Police Force do a grand job in very difficult days.
And I think they were not hard enough on the G8 nusiances that we in the big city had to put up with. It must be a great life up in the surroundings o Latheron
[I would rather a police man/woman who was prepared to pull the trigger than one who hesitates and allows a bomber to denote his bomb.
If we can believe that they had his hands pinned behind his back, how could he set off the bomb - supposing he had one?
I think the reason for the five shots is that anti terror squads who are working in enclosed spaces use low velocity rounds, so that the bullet does not travel further than the kill zone!
I think the reason for the five shots is that anti terror squads who are working in enclosed spaces use low velocity rounds, so that the bullet does not travel further than the kill zone!
They also use hollow nosed amunition which spreads on impact but it's the reason there were any shots at all that is worrying.
Apparently our police force has been to countries which have a long standing problem with suicide bombers to learn how to deal with them, including Israel an apartheid state with an appaling record of human rights abuses. Israel is no nearer to solving the problem now than they were 20 years ago.
A more sensible approach would be to send our government to learn from the governments of countries which don't have a problem with suicide bombers.
I think the reason for the five shots is that anti terror squads who are working in enclosed spaces use low velocity rounds, so that the bullet does not travel further than the kill zone!
The gun was pressed against his head for goodness sake!
[A more sensible approach would be to send our government to learn from the governments of countries which don't have a problem with suicide bombers.
here here.
Learn what exactly from other Governments? How to say nicely to suicide bombers "please don't blow us up!" ? The bombers are here and tactics to deal with them need to be in place.
The execution style method of shots to the head is particulary brutal but obviously effective and is designed to stop any chance of bomb detonation. Imagine being the officer who knows he is going to have to kill in cold blood or risk the chance of being blown up along with everything, and everyone, in the vicinity.
We can't possibly judge the issue sitting here with only the media 'facts' to go on. Only an independant enquiry will get to the bottom of it and I suspect that the intelligence information will be at the centre of the matter. Personally, I think this is a tragic event but I don't think you can slate officers on the front line following training and orders for the outcome.
It is appalling that this man is dead. Appalling for him and for his family and for us as well. State hired thugs is pushing it a bit far Fred and you are wrong to say they should learn from countries that dont have suicide bombers - how can we if they dont have them? dont make sense to me that.
However there has to be a balance between executing people on the street and allowing people top walk past and then blow up a bomb. I can only assume that the policement themselves really beleived they were in danger of being blown up by a bomb as they arrested this man, Imagine their fear and terror as they were tackling htis guy if they truly believed he was a bomber. They would have been expecting to die any moment - that surely does something to you.
I think its wrong to say there was no outrage in the papers i read plenty in yesterdays sundays. There should be an enquiry and clear and unambiguous guidelines should be given so that police know how to act in such circumstances.
It is worth noting that had this man been carrying a bomb the reports in the paper and the take on this story would be completely different. However if they have him completely incapacitated then why they had the need to shoot him i dont know but ill wait and see what the enquiry turns up
Learn what exactly from other Governments? How to say nicely to suicide bombers "please don't blow us up!" ? The bombers are here and tactics to deal with them need to be in place.
The suicide bombers are here because of tactics like these, because in Iraq so far the US led forces have killed three times as many innocent civilians as the insurgents have.
If you justify the killing of innocent people by the police then you justify the killing of innocent people by the terrorists.
The suicide bombers are here because of tactics like these, because in Iraq so far the US led forces have killed three times as many innocent civilians as the insurgents have.
Pure conjecture on your part Fred. Please provide FACTS that link the suicide bombings in the UK and Iraq - you simply do not know or understand the aims or ideals of these radical groups if you think this.
The suicide bombers are here because of tactics like these, because in Iraq so far the US led forces have killed three times as many innocent civilians as the insurgents have.
If you justify the killing of innocent people by the police then you justify the killing of innocent people by the terrorists.
You said
The suicide bomber are here because of tactics like these?????????????
Actually Fred - there would be no need for tactics like these without suicide bombers.
I watched a policeman say today that this should only come after all other tactics - like intelligence, survellance and the like. There will be times when mistakes happen - the point is not to spout ill judged rhetoric like this but to examine "the facts" see why the mistake happened and make damn sure it doesnt happen again. It isnt up to you or I to make the judgement as to whether the action the police took was justifiable - i cant imagine how shooting someone who is poinned down could be so but then im not sure relying on the reports in the paper helps to make an informed decision. If this man was unlawfully killed then the enquiry should make sure that this comes out and those responsible should be tried in a court of law where people can be made aware of the facts.
Exageerated claims that london is akin to israel palestine and Iraq is just not helpful and complete nonsense
Fred your a total prat, as with many of the other do gooder postings Ive read with interest regarding whats happening in london. None of you live there or amongst whats happening and therefore your opinions count for nothing. As for the guy being shot, what do we do wait till he detonates his "BIG JACKET" on a train full of people, no I think not, Ive even read you ranting about Palistine/Gazza and alsorts, and as with both these areas, how long do you think it took them to realise a 14 year old with an AK47 in his hands was as danegrous as a grown man, to late once the triggers been pulled, lets not take the chance eh, drop him I say. And as for all these idiots that sing oooooh poor muslim, WE dont let them integrate, rubbish, they dont want to be part of british society, and choose to alienate themselves. I think Ive even read someone spouting the fact that they are ill educated and unemployed is down to us to, hahaha again utter rubbish. Since this country has become a happy hunting ground for freeloaders, they don't even make any effort to learn the language, hence unemployable, hence unwilling to learn, the country is getting crazy by the time a BRITISH teacher can be sacked for not being able to speak Urdu, and its people just like yourself causing it, hmmmmmm I bet there are many employment situations arise in caithness, where by your not allowed to put your ham sandwhiches in the fridge for fear of upsetting your muslim collegue. Waken up the world is changing, believe it or not.
Oh Great!!!
Away this lot is just as bad
What happens to balance?
We have gone from Fred - dont shoot any of them to Away - Shoot them all. There has to be a balance - there has to be tolerence and understanding and there has to be respect
The suicide bombers are here because of tactics like these, because in Iraq so far the US led forces have killed three times as many innocent civilians as the insurgents have.
If you justify the killing of innocent people by the police then you justify the killing of innocent people by the terrorists.
You said
The suicide bomber are here because of tactics like these?????????????
Yes, "the end justifies the means" tactics, the "it's OK killing innocent people so long as it's in a good cause" tactics.
You don't honestly think these bombings arn't as a direct result of our invasions if Iraq and Afghanistan do you?
The suicide bombers are here because of tactics like these, because in Iraq so far the US led forces have killed three times as many innocent civilians as the insurgents have.
If you justify the killing of innocent people by the police then you justify the killing of innocent people by the terrorists.
You said
The suicide bomber are here because of tactics like these?????????????
Yes, "the end justifies the means" tactics, the "it's OK killing innocent people so long as it's in a good cause" tactics.
You don't honestly think these bombings arn't as a direct result of our invasions if Iraq and Afghanistan do you?
Oh Great!!!
We have gone from Fred - dont shoot any of them to Away - Shoot them all. There has to be a balance - there has to be tolerence and understanding and there has to be respect
I didn't say that. If the police know with a reasonable degree of certainty that someone is a suicide bomber and they know with a reasonable degree of certainty that they are carrying explosives then I say shoot them and shoot for the head.
But that isn't what is happening, a senior police officer has made a statement that there is a shoot to kill policy and that there is every possibility that more innocent people are going to be shot by the police. This isn't a case of shooting as a last resort this is a case of if in doubt shoot and if a few innocent people get killed along the way it's just hard lines.
Lets face it if someone points a gun at you and you think they are going to use it you have every right to shoot them first that's self defence but you can't just go round shooting people then say "well they might have had a gun".
If the police know with a reasonable degree of certainty that someone is a suicide bomber and they know with a reasonable degree of certainty that they are carrying explosives then I say shoot them and shoot for the head.
But that isn't what is happening, a senior police officer has made a statement that there is a shoot to kill policy and that there is every possibility that more innocent people are going to be shot by the police. This isn't a case of shooting as a last resort this is a case of if in doubt shoot and if a few innocent people get killed along the way it's just hard lines.
AS i understand it from reading the BBC website and others the man came out of a building that was under survellance. he ran when approached and was wearing unusual clothing for the time of year, he vaulted a ticket barrier and refused to stop when asked. I am NOT saying that this is justifiable but to liken it to some sort of place where police killings of innocente passers by are routine, or to liken it to a situation where there is a war going on doesnt make sense
I never stated shoot them all, the capital is in a high state of security just now. Therefore if told to stop, I certainly wouldnt be thinking of, hmmmmmm oh I'll just jump on this train. Balance, HA don't make me laugh. Im not even refering to the muslims who came hear and were subject to hard times in the past, those have proven that they can integrate with the british way of life, Im refering to since the country has opened it doors, and doesnt even know what its letting in. These are the people who wrongly feel that we should change our ways of life to accomodate them, rubbish they should remember what country they choose to come to. The same as if I got caught drinking in their parts of the world or stealing, Id either be flogged or have my hands cut off. They don't help themselves, and people like you that actually make it into governemt positions are making them expect even more. what about us some of us have been paying taxes into this country all our working days, rasheed maroof muhamed steps of the plane at heathrow with his 7 kids and three wives, and gets his social security forms filled out for him (cause he cant speak english), handed cash to see him through till his giro arrives, and a taxi to his new council house (cause he cant use public transport), the same council house that if I went on a housing list for Id have to wait 10yrs, then sits back every week waiting for his giro and all other benefits, casue do gooders make him aware of what he's entitled do, and makes absolutely no effort to learn the language, nor none of his family. Balance as I say dont make me laugh, the looneys have got in power cause of listening to people like you, the same looneys that put our own troops over to get involved in americas war
Yes, "the end justifies the means" tactics, the "it's OK killing innocent people so long as it's in a good cause" tactics.
You don't honestly think these bombings arn't as a direct result of our invasions if Iraq and Afghanistan do you?
I already answered this but as you took the trouble to ask me twice i will tell you again.
The war in iraq is NOT the reason there are suicide bombers. The reason there are suicide bombers is cos there are evil people who use whatever tools they can to sell their particular brand of hatred and they would do this without the war in iraq - they would simply use somethng else.
Its never ok killing innocent people ever, but comparing the decision the police officers made to decisions made in the iraq war doesnt make sense
This is what gets me. No matter how suspicious the man was acting, if they had him pinned to the ground, why did they have to shoot him? Not once - but five times? I know they're under a lot of strain and probably very angry, but it sounds to me that if some one is that trigger happy, they shouldn't be in that job!
Shooting him multiple times is standard procedure in this kind of situation. Once a threat has been identified, it has to be neutralised. They shoot them from the spinal cord to the brain to make sure nervous system shuts down stopping the fingers from reacting in a way that may trigger the bomb.
Fred,
You should be grateful that some people are willing to put their lives on the line to protect innocent members of the public and you should not be so quick to condemn purely on what you read in the red tops or hear on Sky news.
As pointed out the guy had lived in the UK for 3 years so he was well aware of the security situation in the UK and spoke good english so any challenge would have been understood.
Whilst these police officers may have been in plain clothes leading up to the confrontation they would have donned police firearms hats to identify themselves as police - for their own safety and for ease of identification to the public.
Yes it was sad that this person died as the result of this operation, but who is to blame? The police or the terrorists? I blame the terrorists who by their actions have forced what was one a police force which prided itself on not having the need to carry firearms, unlike almost every other force in the world, to have to consider deploying them on a widespread basis.
The officers involved in this tragedy had a split second to make a decision - what decisions have you had to make today? "Oh shall I have a coffee with my toast this morning?"
I don't know where you live, but I know people who were one train away from the events of 7/7 and I was due to go to London that day and would have used the lines affected. People in my region lost relatives in this outrage.
I think that we should all stop speculating and passing judgement on an event we have not the slightest clue about and let the Independent Police Complaints Commission sort out what actually happened [mad] [mad] [mad] [disgust]
...people like you .... what about us some of us have been paying taxes into this country all our working days, rasheed maroof muhamed steps of the plane at heathrow with his 7 kids and three wives, and gets his social security forms filled out for him (cause he cant speak english), handed cash to see him through till his giro arrives, and a taxi to his new council house (cause he cant use public transport), the same council house that if I went on a housing list for Id have to wait 10yrs, then sits back every week waiting for his giro and all other benefits, casue do gooders make him aware of what he's entitled do, and makes absolutely no effort to learn the language, nor none of his family. Balance as I say dont make me laugh, the looneys have got in power cause of listening to people like you, the same looneys that put our own troops over to get involved in americas war
Well people like me have been listening to ill informed and ignorant people like you spout off about the social security system and immigrants for the last thirty years and i havent heard one of you get it RIGHT yet!!!!! Its the same racist twaddle thats been spouted for years and its boring dull unimaginative and wrong and more this particular point it neither helps understand the issues or contribute to resolving them.
How about if i add GO infront of your name and you follow that instruction
Fred,
You should be grateful that some people are willing to put their lives on the line to protect innocent members of the public and you should not be so quick to condemn purely on what you read in the red tops or hear on Sky news.
Well now there is one innocent member of the public they didn't do a very good job of protecting.
The Brazilian man shot dead by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber in south London had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, security sources say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.....
....When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.
Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian newspapers.
The actions of an innocent man?
But if they failed to do their job and he had been a suicide bomber you no doubt would be the first to stand up and accuse them of being incompetant - damned whichever way they turn.
Maybe you want to accuse the Met Police of having death squads as well ala those in many Brazilian cities ..... [disgust]
The Brazilian man shot dead by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber in south London had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, security sources say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.....
....When he was challenged by police in the Tube station, he fled, reportedly leaping the ticket barrier.
Over the past year there have been an increased number of immigration checks at Tube stations - a policy widely reported in Brazilian newspapers.
The actions of an innocent man?
But if they failed to do their job and he had been a suicide bomber you no doubt would be the first to stand up and accuse them of being incompetant - damned whichever way they turn.
Maybe you want to accuse the Met Police of having death squads as well ala those in many Brazilian cities ..... [disgust]
This guy was an electrician working in the UK legally. What things are like in his home country is nothing to do with the way Police in this country should be operating. For the record he was not shot 5 times, he was shot EIGHT times, with seven shots being in his head. If Police thought he was a suicide bomber then why did they let him board a bus where he may have detonated it? He should surely have been challenged where there was least danger to the public. This man was not sponging off UK benefits he was earning his way and who knows what fears may have been going through his own mind in the current climate.
This guy was an electrician working in the UK legally. What things are like in his home country is nothing to do with the way Police in this country should be operating. For the record he was not shot 5 times, he was shot EIGHT times, with seven shots being in his head. If Police thought he was a suicide bomber then why did they let him board a bus where he may have detonated it? He should surely have been challenged where there was least danger to the public. This man was not sponging off UK benefits he was earning his way and who knows what fears may have been going through his own mind in the current climate.
Legally?
You know he was paying his taxes?
If he was on a student visa with restricted work conditions I doubt if he was.
But that is incidental to the subject. I raaised the situation in Brazil to try and counter the drivel being posted by Fred.
As for how the police here operate now in the current climate is probably for the members of ACPO to decide.
Shot 5 times? 8 Times? Allowed to board a bus? Blah blah blah. All points raised/whipped up by the media - and all points which, as I have said before, will be investigated by the IPCC.
Stop speculating about what happened.
Legally?
You know he was paying his taxes?
If he was on a student visa with restricted work conditions I doubt if he was.
But that is incidental to the subject. I raaised the situation in Brazil to try and counter the drivel being posted by Fred.
As for how the police here operate now in the current climate is probably for the members of ACPO to decide.
No, it is already decided by the law and no one is above the law.
As I see it the officers either acted outside current police code of practice in which case they broke British law and that law would have to be murder or they acted inside current police code of practice in which case the police are in direct contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights Section 1 Article 2 and are breaking European law.
There is precedent, in 1988 the SAS shot dead three members of the IRA in Gibraltar, they actually were terrorists and they had gone to Gibraltar to plant a bomb but the SAS shot them the day before the bomb was due to go off at a time when they were no threat to anyone. The defence was that the IRA members could have planted the bomb already and could have had remote detonation devices. The British Government were found guilty by the European Court of Human Rights in 1995.
[Shooting him multiple times is standard procedure in this kind of situation. Once a threat has been identified, it has to be neutralised. They shoot them from the spinal cord to the brain to make sure nervous system shuts down stopping the fingers from reacting in a way that may trigger the bomb.
That sounds horrible! Like cows in a slaughterhouse!
I see the neccessity, in the case of a bomber. What i still can't understand is, if he was suspected of carrying a bomb, why did they let him get on a bus before he even got to the tube station?
No, it is already decided by the law and no one is above the law.
As I see it the officers either acted outside current police code of practice in which case they broke British law and that law would have to be murder or they acted inside current police code of practice in which case the police are in direct contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights Section 1 Article 2 and are breaking European law.
There is precedent, in 1988 the SAS shot dead three members of the IRA in Gibraltar, they actually were terrorists and they had gone to Gibraltar to plant a bomb but the SAS shot them the day before the bomb was due to go off at a time when they were no threat to anyone. The defence was that the IRA members could have planted the bomb already and could have had remote detonation devices. The British Government were found guilty by the European Court of Human Rights in 1995.
Wish we could all live in the sweet fluffy world you inhabit. They were terrorists. If they didn't succeed murdering innocent tourists and soldiers in Gibraltar then they would have done it somewhere else. London, Birmingham, a barrack town in Germany or N Ireland.
Unlike the IRA this new breed of murdering lowlife scum do not give coded warnings nor do they differentiate between "legitimate military targets" and innocent civilians. They are out to kill anyone, even other Muslims. They are happy to sacrifice themselves in their warped version of Islam.
We are all the enemy. Infidels. The goal posts have moved, the rules are not the same, so new rules have been written.
We'll let the ECHR judges sitting in their nice comfy offices find the UK government guilty if that is what happens down the road.
"London Mayor Ken Livingstone described Mr Menezes as a "victim of the terrorist attacks".
He said: "Consider the choice that faced police officers at Stockwell last Friday - and be glad you did not have to take it.""
Legally?
You know he was paying his taxes?
If he was on a student visa with restricted work conditions I doubt if he was.
But that is incidental to the subject. I raaised the situation in Brazil to try and counter the drivel being posted by Fred.
As for how the police here operate now in the current climate is probably for the members of ACPO to decide.
Shot 5 times? 8 Times? Allowed to board a bus? Blah blah blah. All points raised/whipped up by the media - and all points which, as I have said before, will be investigated by the IPCC.
Stop speculating about what happened.
Mmm, you tell me to stop speculating but speculate even more yourself. By the way, it is official that he was shot eight times, that is not speculation.
I listened live on Sky news to an eyewitness who was right there when it happened. Do you think he was speculating? The Police here will operate on the way the government tell them to operate and the government are voted in by the people. My vote is the equal of yours no matter how much you might think you are superior. The Police in London are being paid damn well to do a job they voluntarily went into, If they can't cut it they should get out. It is not all about helping old wifies across the road and directing the social underclasses to the nearest offy for a bottle of Bucky.
By your logic the terrorists do not differentiate between "legitimate targets" and innocent civilians. If the Police are going about killing innocent people then can you please explain in what way they are any different?
"Police intelligence" remains an oxymoron, with more balls-ups than a Pawnbrokers convention over the years. Just a while back the Police were getting gyp on here about their lack of success in tackling the local neds, all of a sudden they are the greatest thing since sliced bacon. Bobby Shaftoe becomes Bobby Dazzler.
ps ACPO is ACOP out. Thanks to the late and lamented Richard Whitley for that anagram
[quote=fred]
Unlike the IRA this new breed of murdering lowlife scum do not give coded warnings nor do they differentiate between "legitimate military targets" and innocent civilians. They are out to kill anyone, even other Muslims. They are happy to sacrifice themselves in their warped version of Islam.
You think a cluster bomb doesn't kill innocent civilians? America dropped 11,000 cluster bombs on Iraq during the invasion, Britain 2,000, they are still killing people, mostly children who are inquisitive when they find a piece of unexploded ordnance.
If you want to know what motivates the terrorists then all you have to do is look at the fear and hatred in your own heart after one bomb attack then multiply it by a million.
[quote=awa] Its the same racist twaddle thats been spouted for years and its boring dull unimaginative and wrong and more this particular point it neither helps understand the issues or contribute to resolving them.
How about if i add GO infront of your name and you follow that instruction
I knew your were going to try and pull the racism card, and eagerly awaited your reply. For your information I have many friends and work collegues from varying nations, from kenyan, morrocan, pakistani, carribean, south african to indian, of the top of my head I can think of at least 5 muslim friends and associates I have, ranging from meeting socially to even trips away to football. Your being both boring dull and unimaginative with your labelling of racist (change the record its boring now), you sound like a child that isnt getting its own way, and cause it doesnt suit, then Im doing wrong. Funnily enough all five of the muslim friends I have made reference to are employed and have choose to respect their religions, and yet not let it hold them back in the ways of living a normal,product, and rewarding life. Although off the original topic of the guy who got shot, you will note that my original post was relating to the topic in discussion, yet having read your previous twaddle in other postings and then for you to make reference to "balance", just made me laugh.
Add what you like infront, I'll still be here
Im refering to since the country has opened it doors, and doesnt even know what its letting in. These are the people who wrongly feel that we should change our ways of life to accomodate them, rubbish they should remember what country they choose to come to. The same as if I got caught drinking in their parts of the world or stealing, Id either be flogged or have my hands cut off. They don't help themselves, and people like you that actually make it into governemt positions are making them expect even more. what about us some of us have been paying taxes into this country all our working days, rasheed maroof muhamed steps of the plane at heathrow with his 7 kids and three wives, and gets his social security forms filled out for him (cause he cant speak english), handed cash to see him through till his giro arrives, and a taxi to his new council house (cause he cant use public transport), the same council house that if I went on a housing list for Id have to wait 10yrs, then sits back every week waiting for his giro and all other benefits, casue do gooders make him aware of what he's entitled do, and makes absolutely no effort to learn the language, nor none of his family. Balance as I say dont make me laugh, the looneys have got in power cause of listening to people like you, the same looneys that put our own troops over to get involved in americas war
If this statement is not racist it certanly sounds it to me, and as far as I'm concerned its agruments like this that breed resentment and bigotry
If this statement is not racist it certanly sounds it to me, and as far as I'm concerned its agruments like this that breed resentment and bigotry
No Golach, not bigotry but yes possibley rescentment. And strangely not much of it rescentment towards the parties concerned, probably more aimed at the government that has let this situation arise. It can't be bigotry when you have asians and all walks of life down here signing up for the BNP (Im more Torie myself btw) because they are sick of what they are seeing happening to their own country, you'll note I made reference to "their own country", but but but how can you say that I hear you say, your a mean and nasty racist?, As explained in my previous post I am neither racist nor bigot. From my time in wick I don't remember being able to sit on the bus and listen to the colour mix of dialects, myself being the only one on that bus to speak english, hence why I couldnt possibley survive in my area being a bigot
hmm having read the many differening views well most of them anyway .. *G* would just like to put in at the end of the day.. a man who had no connection with the terrorists was brutally murdered.. the police have accepted all blame.. i do not profess to know all the details.. but from what i understand the men were not in uniform?
me personally IF some one came at me carrying a gun and shouting i would run as well.. as its harder to hit a moving target than a stationary one..
if as has been told he was held down and shot.. then point to be he was executed..
but as it stands he was shot in the head multiple times.. and brutaly killed while having no involvment at all.. and as has been pointed out why did they let him on the bus?
and why did they shoot him in the head?
police are trained to shoot in the arms and legs to disable a suspect..
so that makes no sence..
my thoughts go out to the family of the young man as i am sure they are in extreme pain because no matter what the cause they have lost their son just as all the others lost family in the earlier bombings.. :(
Where do you get your facts, from the Media? As far as I am concerned lets wait until the public enquiry comes out then point the accusing finger, in my opinion Fred, you are very quick to condem but you are very slow at offering tangible solutions. I personally dont have a solution, but I think our Police Force do a grand job in very difficult days.
And I think they were not hard enough on the G8 nusiances that we in the big city had to put up with. It must be a great life up in the surroundings o Latheron
Here here golach,
It is also true to say that the police have allways had a 'shoot to kill' policy in place, not just since 7/7. It is wrong to shoot to wound or to warn. It is also true that it makes little difference to the man or his family if he was shot once in the head or 5 times in the head. But it probably (I am not a doctor)makes a difference in his ability to detonate a bomb.
I wasn't going to respond to this post but my blood is boiling at reading such uninformed, ignorant drivel from the likes of Fred.
The recent attacks are a direct result of our involvement in Iraq? Just a suggestion Fred, but if you ever get the chance to walk down Basra main street and ask an average Iraqi citizen what they think of the coalition forces being there, they will shake your hand, call you their saviour from 30 years of mass murder, rape and torture, and ask you to take tea with them. Oh...but then the media says the total opposite so you'll obviously believe them! Someone else said that if it wasn't Iraq it would be some other cause the Imams are preaching against in the UK mosques. Absolutely true.
How dare you take a scattering of journalistic 'facts' about the London shooting and then broadcast your own twisted conclusions. What makes you a one-man Investigations Commission, armed with nothing more than a few official facts and a large pile of sensationalist gossip? Coupled with your armchair knowledge of world events, I'm relieved to see that you are in a minority on this subject.
p.s. Katarina - If you think that eliminating a suspected terrorist with multiple shots is so horrible, watching dozens of limbs flying in all directions isn't too nice either!
p.p.s. Some great points from MadPict and Squidge.
Off to count to 10 now!!!
[quote="brandy"]
police are trained to shoot in the arms and legs to disable a suspect..
so that makes no sence..
Your are correct in one thing Brandy, you may not have all the facts.
If you have ever undergone any form of arms training you will realise that you are trained to go for the mass of the body, torso area. This isnt TJ hooker, can you imagine how difficult it would be to pull of a shot specifying limps in a crowded area, the reason for going for the mass is simple, one as stated by yourself it is most certainly harder to hit a moving target (certainly with a short nosed pistol, as any minimal movement is exagerated in your aim), hence the validity of your arms and legs story goes out the window, two, the amount of major organs contained within the torso guarentees almost inevitably he will drop to the ground.
Funnily enough all five of the muslim friends I have made reference to are employed and have choose to respect their religions, and yet not let it hold them back in the ways of living a normal,product, and rewarding life.
So why use such a racist extreme example as you did here
rasheed maroof muhamed steps of the plane at heathrow with his 7 kids and three wives, and gets his social security forms filled out for him (cause he cant speak english), handed cash to see him through till his giro arrives, and a taxi to his new council house (cause he cant use public transport), the same council house that if I went on a housing list for Id have to wait 10yrs, then sits back every week waiting for his giro and all other benefits, casue do gooders make him aware of what he's entitled do, and makes absolutely no effort to learn the language, nor none of his family.
I maintain that these remarks are ignorant, racist and wrong. Whether you feel that you are a racist or not is immaterial - those remarks are as distasteful now as they have ever been and they have been being made for twenty years.
not squidge not wrong, if you read the comparison between the two quotes you made reference to, you will see that I am trying to state the difference of those that are entering the country now, and those who have resided in the UK for if not all the majority of their life, these are facts Ive stated sorry
[Shooting him multiple times is standard procedure in this kind of situation. Once a threat has been identified, it has to be neutralised. They shoot them from the spinal cord to the brain to make sure nervous system shuts down stopping the fingers from reacting in a way that may trigger the bomb.
What i still can't understand is, if he was suspected of carrying a bomb, why did they let him get on a bus before he even got to the tube station?
I guess they had hoped he was going to lead them to the missing bombers or maybe other people involved. I imagine when they saw him heading towards the tube they didn't want to take the risk any further.
just a thought....... a deaf coloured man running to catch his train wouldn't stand a chance!
I am trying to state the difference of those that are entering the country now, and those who have resided in the UK for if not all the majority of their life,
OK Away i accept that it was for illustrative purposes only , however the example you use cant happen
I guess they had hoped he was going to lead them to the missing bombers or maybe other people involved. I imagine when they saw him heading towards the tube they didn't want to take the risk any further.
So, if he had blown himself up on the bus and taken several passengers with him then that would have been acceptable would it? After all, he MIGHT have led them to missing bombers.
One thing is certain, if this man had been involved then there would not have been much chance of getting any information out of him once seven bullets had perforated his brain.
I wasn't going to respond to this post but my blood is boiling at reading such uninformed, ignorant drivel from the likes of Fred.
The recent attacks are a direct result of our involvement in Iraq? Just a suggestion Fred, but if you ever get the chance to walk down Basra main street and ask an average Iraqi citizen what they think of the coalition forces being there, they will shake your hand, call you their saviour from 30 years of mass murder, rape and torture, and ask you to take tea with them. Oh...but then the media says the total opposite so you'll obviously believe them! Someone else said that if it wasn't Iraq it would be some other cause the Imams are preaching against in the UK mosques. Absolutely true.
So those naughty people at the BBC are just making up all those stories about the insurgent attacks on the occupying forces and Iraqi collaborators?
I don't think so.
Here are the facts about what we have done for Iraq:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4694123.stm
What do you think the future holds for Iraq now? The coalition forces won't stay to protect them for ever and when they leave it will be civil war and more carnage. What Iraqi people are left alive, one out of every thousand is dead already, will be worse off than when they started but you can bet we'll have their oil.
I just heard on the radio that the football game between Millwall FC and the Iranian national team scheduled for Saturday in London had been cancelled.
It seems to me like there are some heavy things going on in the background for a decision like this to be made. Millwall FC said they were acting on information recieved that people may be in danger if the game went ahead
Millwall are known to carry some of the most right wing football supporters (thugs) in the country. My guess is these idiots were planning some dust-up against an obvious "Islamic menace". It would have been awful.
I have to admit I had planned taking my daughter to London soon, but no more. It must be very difficult trying to live a normal life in some parts of London these days.
I suppose my attitude is the one our Leaders are telling us not to adopt and who am I to disagree with them? Mind you they have a fair bit more security around them than my daughter And I would have in London.
What a blinking mess.
I wasn't going to respond to this post but my blood is boiling at reading such uninformed, ignorant drivel from the likes of Fred.
The recent attacks are a direct result of our involvement in Iraq? Just a suggestion Fred, but if you ever get the chance to walk down Basra main street and ask an average Iraqi citizen what they think of the coalition forces being there, they will shake your hand, call you their saviour from 30 years of mass murder, rape and torture, and ask you to take tea with them. Oh...but then the media says the total opposite so you'll obviously believe them! Someone else said that if it wasn't Iraq it would be some other cause the Imams are preaching against in the UK mosques. Absolutely true.
So those naughty people at the BBC are just making up all those stories about the insurgent attacks on the occupying forces and Iraqi collaborators?
I don't think so.
.
Oh Fred to think I gave you some common sense, even though I don't agree with you but you have now shown me that you must be the most naive person in the world if you believe all that you see on the media, everything you see, is edited and manipulated to give the producer of the article the most extreme coverage.
Take a pinch o salt Fred
OK Away i accept that it was for illustrative purposes only , however the example you use cant happen
The only people stopping it from happening are those who dwell on hard times of previous, namely yourself and the likes. Like stated earlier the times they are a changing
The only people stopping it from happening are those who dwell on hard times of previous, namely yourself and the likes. Like stated earlier the times they are a changing
Honestly!!!! :eyes You wont let it go will you - i feel like you are misunderstanding what i am saying deliberately but maybe i m not doing a good enough job of being clear.Under social security legislation as at TODAY the situation you described cannot happen. The LEGISLATION prevents people such as you described getting benefits the way you described. There were times when it could have happened in the early eighties but this is no longer the case.The law has been changed and today that could not happen. Im not going to say any more about this cos im sure everyone is rolling their eyes.
Oh Fred to think I gave you some common sense, even though I don't agree with you but you have now shown me that you must be the most naive person in the world if you believe all that you see on the media, everything you see, is edited and manipulated to give the producer of the article the most extreme coverage.
Take a pinch o salt Fred
Oh I do, when the papers were full of stories about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction I didn't believe one word of it.
And when our government declared war on terror I never thought for one minute that terror wouldn't fight back.
.
Once again, Fred, you have displayed a stunning lack of reality and total belief in tabloid journalism.
1. If you were in Iraq (which I am), you would know that the majority of insurgent attacks are coordinated by former members of the regime who have nothing to lose but try and incite civil war in the remote hope that they can restore their 'elite' status they held when Saddam was in power.
2. The attacks on the military were mainly to put pressure on domestic governments to pull their troops out and make the terrorist's job easier, as happened with the Spanish. These have now decreased, partly from stricter security from the military and partly because the countries still here are here for the long-term. Civilian attacks now aim to pitch Sunni against Shi'ia.
3. What do I think the future holds? I don't honestly know (but no doubt you've read a news article on what it will be). I've been here now since June 2003 and every week I see an increasing determination by the locals to get back on their feet and be a great nation again. Your lofty opinion that when we leave "it will be civil war and more carnage" is an over-simplified, ill-informed insult to the dedication, sacrifice and abilities of Iraqi and coalition personnel who are working together to make it happen.
4. You're obviously blissfully unaware that the Iraqis now have full autonomy over their oil. We are funding a huge rehabilitation of the infrastucture, and I am not niaive enough to think that we will not get preferential rates from this in the future, but that is a far cry from "having their oil"!
Before I'm accused of turning away from the realities of this situation, (as you predictably posted from a BBC report), I am a strong critic on how the US have handled themselves here, from large-scale corruption to poorly trained young soldiers who shoot anything that moves. However, against my better judgement I'll throw in a webpage of my own, issued today....http://www.almendhar.com/english_4855/news.aspx. Read that and let me know your thoughts on whether or not it was justified. My conscience is clear!
Stop believing everything you read, unplug the TV and find out what's happening in the real world Fred!!!
This link works.......I hope
http://www.almendhar.com/english_4855/news.aspx
i have no answer either, i have been broought up in london and i know the ins and outs of the underground system it is not a great site. I agree there are a lot of suspicious people in London and violent people too. All it was was a mistake, lets face up to it. The guy was an ilegal immigrant and he ran because of that and thats what killed him. The police saw him running towards a train with a heavy coat on and they made the mistake of taking no chances. Its a big shame that the guy dies but i certainly dont blame the police, they saw a real risk and acted decisively for the better good. Oh and London is nothing like israel, huge difference there, they fighting for rights and land, we just have guys killing the british to prove that they can get into out country.
Once again, Fred, you have displayed a stunning lack of reality and total belief in tabloid journalism.
I don't get all my information from the tabloids.
1. If you were in Iraq (which I am), you would know that the majority of insurgent attacks are coordinated by former members of the regime who have nothing to lose but try and incite civil war in the remote hope that they can restore their 'elite' status they held when Saddam was in power.
Ah you are in Iraq, that explains why you are in denial.
. You're obviously blissfully unaware that the Iraqis now have full autonomy over their oil. We are funding a huge rehabilitation of the infrastucture, and I am not niaive enough to think that we will not get preferential rates from this in the future, but that is a far cry from "having their oil"!
With 150,000 US troops in Iraq I am blissfully aware that they don't have full autonmy over anything, I don't think anyone is in any doubt about who is in control.
American and British oil firms were excluded from Iraq with the nationalisation of 1972 and just look at them now.
Before I'm accused of turning away from the realities of this situation, (as you predictably posted from a BBC report), I am a strong critic on how the US have handled themselves here, from large-scale corruption to poorly trained young soldiers who shoot anything that moves. However, against my better judgement I'll throw in a webpage of my own, issued today....http://www.almendhar.com/english_4855/news.aspx. Read that and let me know your thoughts on whether or not it was justified. My conscience is clear!
I look forward to the trial of Sadam with great interest, I have a feeling if the truth is allowed to be let out people will realise things arn't just as black and white as they have been led to believe.
I look forward to the trial of Sadam with great interest.
For once, fred and I are in agreement. Are we prepared to see Saddam proven not guilty on all charges? I am also interested see if this happens that the caithness.org's namby pambyists are prepared to defend the court's verdict. All hyperthetical of course...
Yes, "the end justifies the means" tactics, the "it's OK killing innocent people so long as it's in a good cause" tactics.
You don't honestly think these bombings arn't as a direct result of our invasions if Iraq and Afghanistan do you?
I already answered this but as you took the trouble to ask me twice i will tell you again.
The war in iraq is NOT the reason there are suicide bombers. The reason there are suicide bombers is cos there are evil people who use whatever tools they can to sell their particular brand of hatred and they would do this without the war in iraq - they would simply use somethng else.
There is a man called Robert Pape who has done a lot of research into suicide bombers who does not agree with you.
Here is an excerpt from his book "The Logic of Suicide Terrorism".
"Al-Qaeda appears to have made a deliberate decision not to attack the United States in the short term. We know this not only from the pattern of their attacks but because we have an actual al-Qaeda planning document found by Norwegian intelligence. The document says that al-Qaeda should not try to attack the continent of the United States in the short term but instead should focus its energies on hitting America’s allies in order to try to split the coalition. What the document then goes on to do is analyze whether they should hit Britain, Poland, or Spain. It concludes that they should hit Spain just before the March 2004 elections because, and I am quoting almost verbatim: Spain could not withstand two, maximum three, blows before withdrawing from the coalition, and then others would fall like dominoes. That is exactly what happened. Six months after the document was produced, al-Qaeda attacked Spain in Madrid. That caused Spain to withdraw from the coalition. Others have followed. So al-Qaeda certainly has demonstrated the capacity to attack and in fact they have done over 15 suicide-terrorist attacks since 2002, more than all the years before 9/11 combined. Al-Qaeda is not weaker now. Al-Qaeda is stronger."
And here is an intervue with the author by the American Conservative magazine.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/terrorwar/analysis/2005/0718suicide.htm
.
I look forward to the trial of Sadam with great interest.
For once, fred and I are in agreement. Are we prepared to see Saddam proven not guilty on all charges? I am also interested see if this happens that the caithness.org's namby pambyists are prepared to defend the court's verdict. All hyperthetical of course...
That he is a brutal ruthless cold blooded killer I have no doubt at all.
That America knew that when they helped him to power I also have no doubts. That America knew that when they supplied the poison gas he used I have no doubts either but then in the Iran Iraq war America was supplying both sides with chemical agents.
.
Have you any proof that America was supplying both sides with chemical weapons in the Iran/Iraq war?
Please note that I said weapons rather than agents. Please take note that the US did not supply Saddam with any conventional weapons at all.
Fred I think what PhilR was getting at was that he is in direct contact with people who live in Iraq, his experience comes from his interaction with them. You have no experience in this matter, and your information comes from material published by others.....and you select/filter what you want to believe. It may be unpalatable for you to consider that people in Iraq may actual welcome the invasion - but you cannot disregard the comments.
I live and work in an Islamic country, all my work colleagues are Muslims - none share your views on the terorist threat posed by radical Islamics.
Stop believing everything you read, unplug the TV and find out what's happening in the real world Fred!!!
Are you saying that I shouldn't believe this:
Remarkable and accurate article. From our own painful daily experience, it must be stated that we, the average middle Iraqis, who are not this or that party or sect member or supporter, are completely hopeless amidst lost dreams of peace and security, progress, development, democracy, and self respect. Saddam did all the basic damage he could on the Iraqi's dignity, and the post-occupation armed and political forces finished up all the rest.
Arif Qaimaqchi, Baghdad, Iraq
or the article it refers to?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4692881.stm
First the "behind 9/11" excuse went out the window then the "weapons of mass destruction" excuse went out the window and now the "we did it for the people of Iraq" excuse is going out the window and soon all the excuses will be gone and all that will be left will be the reason, oil.
Thanks Scotsboy...you beat me to the response!
I'm in Iraq, therefore I'm in denial? Hmm. No Fred, what I am doing is stating facts and informed opinion based on personal experience from a broad spectrum of sources over a long period of time. You should try this! I have no doubt the 1 guy in Baghdad whose report you chose to display is unhappy with how things are going, but you will find these in any scenario if you look hard enough.
I know many Iraqis from all class levels, and some of whom I consider as good friends. (I'm a born & bred Wicker, by the way). These are my sources of information, and I'd like nothing more than to sit them down in front of you and tell you exactly what the MAJORITY of the population think of your 'views'. I'm sure you'd find it enlightening.
I don't have to deny anything. I just state what is in front of my eyes every day!
Thanks Scotsboy...you beat me to the response!
I'm in Iraq,...snip
Why?
Fred I think what PhilR was getting at was that he is in direct contact with people who live in Iraq, his experience comes from his interaction with them. You have no experience in this matter, and your information comes from material published by others.....and you select/filter what you want to believe. It may be unpalatable for you to consider that people in Iraq may actual welcome the invasion - but you cannot disregard the comments.
Haven't you noticed yet that the news backs up what I say after I've said it, that the link I posted earlier was to a well respected BBC correspondent backing up what I said yesterday in an article published today?
Here's another article published by the BBC today:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4723339.stm
Does that sound familiar to you? Did you hear it somewhere before?
Now answer me this. When the will of the people in America changes, when it is conscripts being killed in Iraq not volunteers, will the American government continue to back the people of Iraq or will they hang them out to dry like they did the Vietnamese?
Aberdeen Train Station this morning.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/G13VE/971eb27d.jpg
Have you any proof that America was supplying both sides with chemical weapons in the Iran/Iraq war?
Please note that I said weapons rather than agents. Please take note that the US did not supply Saddam with any conventional weapons at all.
Some people say that it's because Saddam couldn't get any conventional weapons that he had to use chemical weapons.
A US Senate Committee enquiry into Gulf War Syndrome in 1994 reported that between 1985 and 1989, no records were available prior to 1985, American companies exported to Iraq, with US Department of Commerce license, among others the following substances:
* Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.
* Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.
* Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord, and heart.
* Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.
* Clostridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.
* Clostridium tetani, a highly toxigenic substance.
"These biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction," the Senate report stated.
You can read the entire Senate Report at http://www.gulfwarvets.com/arison/banking.htm
OK, you win Fred. I give up. Obviously, being on the spot and in close touch with the people who are actually the subject of this discussion is no substitute for pig-headed ignorance.
You carry on in your little world where reality should never get in the way of a good story. Me? I'll look forward to my return to Wick in a couple of weeks, assuming of course that I can dodge the cluster bombs on the way to the airport and I can get all by barrels of crude oil through check-in!
Have a good life Fred....when you get one.
Cheerio!
Phil
OK, you win Fred. I give up. Obviously, being on the spot and in close touch with the people who are actually the subject of this discussion is no substitute for pig-headed ignorance.
You carry on in your little world where reality should never get in the way of a good story. Me? I'll look forward to my return to Wick in a couple of weeks, assuming of course that I can dodge the cluster bombs on the way to the airport and I can get all by barrels of crude oil through check-in!
The latest news is that a fourth attempted suicide bomber has been arrested in Italy, a country with troops in Iraq and is saying that the motivation for the bombings was the British troops in Iraq not religion.
Meanwhile last night a young black student in Merseyside got an axe burried in his head while waiting for his bus.
Have a good life Fred....when you get one.
Cheerio!
Phil
Please take note that the name calling in this thread has been all in one direction.
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