View Full Version : Jack McConnell
peter macdonald
17-Aug-07, 12:22
I see the Nu Labour network is still working fine
Helen Liddell to Australia .. Paul Boateng to South Africa .. Now Jack gets the job in Malawi ..and continues to be the MSP for Motherwell
I notice some of the media who condemned FM Alec Salmond for having 2 jobs has been very silent on this one
PM
I see the Nu Labour network is still working fine
Helen Liddell to Australia .. Paul Boateng to South Africa .. Now Jack gets the job in Malawi ..and continues to be the MSP for Motherwell
I notice some of the media who condemned FM Alec Salmond for having 2 jobs has been very silent on this one
PM
So did I, PM..............but then it IS Nulabour and not the SNP...........so that's alright then! :roll:
orkneylass
17-Aug-07, 17:02
i rather thought that a low profile job like the malawi posting was actually a bit of an insult!
i rather thought that a low profile job like the malawi posting was actually a bit of an insult!
They can insult me with High Commissioner's wages and expenses plus MSP severance pay of 50% of salary anytime!
Out of interest, can anyone think of another job where you can get that kind of "resettlement allowance" when you hand in your notice?
I'm with you oddquin, if you ever do find that out, could you let me know as well. Te He. ---:roll:
The Pepsi Challenge
17-Aug-07, 18:01
I see the Nu Labour network is still working fine
Helen Liddell to Australia .. Paul Boateng to South Africa .. Now Jack gets the job in Malawi ..and continues to be the MSP for Motherwell
I notice some of the media who condemned FM Alec Salmond for having 2 jobs has been very silent on this one
PM
Isn't being an MSP a full-time job?
Paul Boateng to South Africa? I would have thought Peter Hain would have been a better choice! :lol:
What puzzles me is that a job previously quite adequately carried out in a matter of half a day or so by a handful of MPs at Westminster elected from Scottish Constituencies has now become a full time job for heaven knows how many MSPs at Holyrood.
To save arguments that is not intended as an opening or a challenge to start a row about how Westminster has treated Scotland in the past, that is a different matter.
Scotland’s MPs dealt with those matters which related solely to Scotland, because of the different systems in use here, during a period set aside at Westminster purely for them to carry out those duties.
As far as I can see MSPs are nothing more than an extra layer of Government with not much to do and a lot of time to do it in.
That is not to say that the concept of a Scottish Parliament is wrong but to ask if it really does need to be a full time occupation with all the attendant cost to Scotland.
For all they seem to have done by way of making things better for Scotland they might as well just meet once a month on a Saturday afternoon. I certainly get the impression that they spend the rest of the time they have finding ways to brush their own egos and trying to invent ways to appear important.
What puzzles me is that a job previously quite adequately carried out in a matter of half a day or so by a handful of MPs at Westminster elected from Scottish Constituencies has now become a full time job for heaven knows how many MSPs at Holyrood.
Depends on what you term adequate, Jaws.
Under Westminster, according to Donald Dewar, Scotland was lucky to get one major piece of Scottish legislation through each year..and in most cases Scottish legislation was simply putting a Scottish face on UK-wide legislation..which tended to be anglo-centric
In the first term of the Scottish Parliament, there were 73 bills put forward, and in the second 81.........and all of them appropriate to Scotland, instead of Scotland just getting added onto legislation more keyed to English needs.
So 72 MPs managed to get one bill a year out of Westminster.......129 MPs managed at least one a month in Edinburgh.
Scotland’s MPs dealt with those matters which related solely to Scotland, because of the different systems in use here, during a period set aside at Westminster purely for them to carry out those duties.
True..but they could only get passed into law those bills with which the English MPs agreed........because we had a "South of the Border Question" much worse than the current West Lothian one! ;)
For all they seem to have done by way of making things better for Scotland they might as well just meet once a month on a Saturday afternoon. I certainly get the impression that they spend the rest of the time they have finding ways to brush their own egos and trying to invent ways to appear important.
Don't you mean they haven't made things better for you? You can hardly speak for Scotland.
They've done some good things and some daft things......they are politicians after all.........but on the whole, they haven't done too badly.......and will do better with an SNP Government! ;)
On matters which related to Scotland, such as those relating to the Scottish Legal System which are in general different from England, decisions were made solely by the MPs for Scotland. With respect to Donald Dewar's comment, he would, wouldn't he. Self interest is a wonderful cause to be inventive, to put it politely.
Yes, I am well aware that Holyrood has passed a large number of Bills and that is the problem with both there and Westminster.
Both measure how well they are governing under the misconception that the more Laws they pass the better they are governing. What they would be better doing is concentrating on the quality of the laws the pass and forget about playing the numbers game.
I actually have personally, along with many others of course, benefited from some of the things they have done but most of the legislation has been little more than polishing the door knobs to impress the neighbours. Scotland has many serious problems which seem to have been shuffled on the “Too hard to do” list.
Your last comment tells me quite a lot. I have no objection to there being a Scottish Parliament and understand Scotland’s wish to have one.
What bothers me, and this applies to Westminster as well, is that instead of concentrating on the difficult and serious matters the politicians are doing nothing about them and instead are playing about with trivialities in the hope people will think they are busy.
I am not having a dig specifically at Scotland but at the general inadequacy of politicians at a National level both here and in London who only look as far as the next election.
j4bberw0ck
18-Aug-07, 09:15
Entirely agree. The Scottish Parliament (and the UK one too if I'm honest) irresistibly reminds of Flanders and Swann, and "The Gasman Cometh":**
'Twas on a Monday morning
The Gas-Man came to call;
The gas tap wouldn't turn - I wasn't getting gas at all.
He tore out all the skirting boards
To try and find the main,
And I had to call a Carpenter to put them back again.
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
'Twas on a Tuesday morning
The Carpenter came round;
He hammered and he chiselled and he said: 'Look what I've found!
Your joists are full of dry-rot
But I'll put it all to rights.'
Then he nailed right through a cable and out went all the lights.
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
'Twas on a Wednesday morning
The Electrician came;
He called me 'Mr Sanderson' (which isn't quite my name).
He couldn't reach the fuse box
Without standing on the bin
And his foot went through a window - so I called a Glazier in.
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
Twas on a Thursday morning
The Glazier came along,
With his blow-torch and his putty and his merry Glazier's song;
He put another pane in -
It took no time at all -
But I had to get a Painter in to come and paint the wall.
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
'Twas on a Friday morning
The Painter made a start;
With undercoats and overcoats he painted every part,
Every nook and every cranny,
But I found when he was gone
He'd painted over the gas tap and I couldn't turn it on!
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
On Saturday and Sunday they do no work at all:
So 'twas on a Monday morning that the Gas-Man came to call!
** I suspect this is strictly the preserve of those of us of "a certain age".
On matters which related to Scotland, such as those relating to the Scottish Legal System which are in general different from England, decisions were made solely by the MPs for Scotland. With respect to Donald Dewar's comment, he would, wouldn't he. Self interest is a wonderful cause to be inventive, to put it politely.
Sorry to contradict you, Jaws...but the bills may have been discussed and put forward by the Government under the auspices of the Scottish Select Committee........second readings were generally undertaken by the Scottish Select Committee........but the legislation had to go through the same procedures as all other UK legislation and was thus dependent on the English vote to pass it.
So there had to be some degree of unity with UK wide legislation to ensure its passing into law which is no longer necessary with devolution.
I have to say that your interpretation is a misconception held by many.
Yes, I am well aware that Holyrood has passed a large number of Bills and that is the problem with both there and Westminster.
Both measure how well they are governing under the misconception that the more Laws they pass the better they are governing. What they would be better doing is concentrating on the quality of the laws the pass and forget about playing the numbers game.
I actually have personally, along with many others of course, benefited from some of the things they have done but most of the legislation has been little more than polishing the door knobs to impress the neighbours. Scotland has many serious problems which seem to have been shuffled on the “Too hard to do” list.
Your last comment tells me quite a lot. I have no objection to there being a Scottish Parliament and understand Scotland’s wish to have one.
What bothers me, and this applies to Westminster as well, is that instead of concentrating on the difficult and serious matters the politicians are doing nothing about them and instead are playing about with trivialities in the hope people will think they are busy.
I am not having a dig specifically at Scotland but at the general inadequacy of politicians at a National level both here and in London who only look as far as the next election.
Can't disagree with a lot of that, Jaws...........which is why, given the SNP underlying agenda.............I am hoping that they do produce meaningful legislation rather than legislation for legislation's sake.
However, much as I dislike Nulabour, the Scottish Parliament has made a difference...........if only taking the anglo-centricity out of some UK wide Bills.
However, there are still too much legislative responsibilities retained at Westminster which impact directly on devolved responsiblities and create an overlap which does not necessarily fit the requirements of Scots Law and Scottish social and economic needs.
I wish there were fewer Sewel motions covering unpopular and contentious issues, allowing proper debate in Edinburgh.......though Sewel motions are beneficial for saving time in non-contentious and necessary legislation.
Hopefully the SNP will not defer so much to Westminster in their term(s) in office.
The convention at Westminster was that with legislation which affected only Scotland and nowhere else in the UK then the decision would be made only by Scottish MPs.
That convention was invariably followed and was one of the reasons that caused Tam Dalyell to raise the West Lothian Question in the first place.
If England’s MPs had broken the convention over Scotland then I am certain that Tam Dalyell, who is a Scot to the core and no English lackey, would have been very vocal on each and every occasion.
One thing about Tam Dalyell which cannot be argued with is that if he believed something was wrong he would speak out and absolutely nothing would shut him up.
Admittedly, when it came to legislation which affected Scotland and also other parts of the UK, there were times when Scotland "lost out", but there were times when the same could be said for Wales, N. Ireland and also many parts of England. If anybody has doubts about that, just ask the people of the North of England and the West Country.
I see the Nu Labour network is still working fine
Helen Liddell to Australia .. Paul Boateng to South Africa .. Now Jack gets the job in Malawi ..and continues to be the MSP for Motherwell
I notice some of the media and some of the orgers
who condemned FM Alec Salmond for having 2 jobs has been very silent on this one
PM
The convention at Westminster was that with legislation which affected only Scotland and nowhere else in the UK then the decision would be made only by Scottish MPs.
That convention was invariably followed and was one of the reasons that caused Tam Dalyell to raise the West Lothian Question in the first place.
If England’s MPs had broken the convention over Scotland then I am certain that Tam Dalyell, who is a Scot to the core and no English lackey, would have been very vocal on each and every occasion.
One thing about Tam Dalyell which cannot be argued with is that if he believed something was wrong he would speak out and absolutely nothing would shut him up.
Admittedly, when it came to legislation which affected Scotland and also other parts of the UK, there were times when Scotland "lost out", but there were times when the same could be said for Wales, N. Ireland and also many parts of England. If anybody has doubts about that, just ask the people of the North of England and the West Country.
So the Poll Tax never happened against the wishes of the vast majority if not ALL the Scottish MPs.....oops.my mistake! :roll:
And the 40% rule in the 1779 Referendum wasn't proposed by an English MP and enthusiastically supported by the English majority! Ooops.wrong again!
There is NO such convention.the only MPs who have ever had, and stuck to, any convention of only voting for Bills which affected them are the SNP.
Believe me, Jaws,.I take note of these things..........English MPs voted on Scottish only bills in the same way as English MPs took part in Scottish Questions.
Tam Dalyell was a Unionist.........and was doing the scare tactics to put off a devolution vote.
A Quote from Lord Foulkes in Hansard.......Feb 2006.......
it may be appropriate to remind noble Lords opposite that before devolution, before the setting up of the Scottish Parliament in 1999, Scottish MPs and the Scottish people had to endure—not only for decades but for centuries—the anomaly whereby English MPs determined legislation which applied only to Scotland. That often meant, during what should be described as the Thatcher years, that Bills were pushed through which were total anathema to the majority of Scottish MPs and the people of Scotland.
But I suppose an ex-Labour MP wouldn't know how the system worked.
Entirely agree. The Scottish Parliament (and the UK one too if I'm honest) irresistibly reminds of Flanders and Swann, and "The Gasman Cometh":**
'Twas on a Monday morning
The Gas-Man came to call;
The gas tap wouldn't turn - I wasn't getting gas at all.
He tore out all the skirting boards
To try and find the main,
And I had to call a Carpenter to put them back again.
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
'Twas on a Tuesday morning
The Carpenter came round;
He hammered and he chiselled and he said: 'Look what I've found!
Your joists are full of dry-rot
But I'll put it all to rights.'
Then he nailed right through a cable and out went all the lights.
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
'Twas on a Wednesday morning
The Electrician came;
He called me 'Mr Sanderson' (which isn't quite my name).
He couldn't reach the fuse box
Without standing on the bin
And his foot went through a window - so I called a Glazier in.
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
Twas on a Thursday morning
The Glazier came along,
With his blow-torch and his putty and his merry Glazier's song;
He put another pane in -
It took no time at all -
But I had to get a Painter in to come and paint the wall.
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
'Twas on a Friday morning
The Painter made a start;
With undercoats and overcoats he painted every part,
Every nook and every cranny,
But I found when he was gone
He'd painted over the gas tap and I couldn't turn it on!
Oh, it all makes work for the working man to do!
On Saturday and Sunday they do no work at all:
So 'twas on a Monday morning that the Gas-Man came to call!
** I suspect this is strictly the preserve of those of us of "a certain age".
Evening j4bberw0ck,
OH suggests you relax with a glorious mudbath and a large madeira!:eek:
He is a nutter, of a certain age, who says he knows his 'Flanders & Swann & assures me you will know what he's talking about!;)
I can arrange to have him put down if he's talking rubbish.
Karia
j4bberw0ck
18-Aug-07, 23:38
Mud, mud, glorious mud!
Nothing much like it for cooling the blood........
So follow me, follow
Down to the hollow
And there let us wallow
In glooooriuuuuuus mud!
(Waves a large glass of madeira in a southernish sort of direction)
Thank heavens for some sanity in the world! :lol::lol:
Just to drag this back on track, I wonder if Wee Jack will find any mud hollows in Malawi........ (phew)
I'm a g-nu
A gnother gnu.........
Oh stop it you old fool...........
Oh dear, Oddquine, the Poll Tax. It was introduced with the full intention of it being implemented throughout Britain and was therefore never intended to be a Scotland Only matter. And yes, I know it was introduced in Scotland first. That was unfortunate but only because it gave those opposed to it for political reasons a chance to scream "Martyrdom, we are being picked on",
As to your quote, good old George Foulkes, rabble rouser extraordinary, what can I say other than, “He would, wouldn’t he!” Even the Labour Party had George’s abilities weighed up, that’s why he was left on the back benches.
Oh dear, Oddquine, the usual screams of anguish over the Poll Tax. It was introduced with the full intention of it being implemented throughout Britain and was therefore never intended to be a “Scotland Only” matter. And yes, I know it was introduced in Scotland first. That was unfortunate but only because it gave those opposed to it for political advantage in Scotland a chance to scream "Martyrdom"
I just hope the SNP get on with improving things in Scotland instead of playing childish games of, "We did it before you did so we're better than you!"
Once Holyrood grows up and stops pretending that all Scotland's problems are somebody else's fault then they might actually get on with doing something for both here and the Borders.
They should put a huge sign in the Chamber at Holyrood with a certain famous phrase on it, "The Buck Stops Here!"
That way they might actually get round to doing something worth while rather than sobbing into their malts all the time because it certainly doesn't do anything for the taste. Of course, if you can find somebody else to blame you can avoid having to accept responsibility for them yourself. Pointing a finger at a scapegoat is always the easiest way out.
Does anybody know if they've fixed the ceiling yet or are they still looking for somebody to pass the buck to over that as well?
snp and alex salmon only got in because of faulty ballot papers me think s
they are all as bad as each other
Oh dear, Oddquine, the Poll Tax. It was introduced with the full intention of it being implemented throughout Britain and was therefore never intended to be a Scotland Only matter. And yes, I know it was introduced in Scotland first. That was unfortunate but only because it gave those opposed to it for political reasons a chance to scream "Martyrdom, we are being picked on",
As to your quote, good old George Foulkes, rabble rouser extraordinary, what can I say other than, “He would, wouldn’t he!” Even the Labour Party had George’s abilities weighed up, that’s why he was left on the back benches.
Oh dear, Oddquine, the usual screams of anguish over the Poll Tax. It was introduced with the full intention of it being implemented throughout Britain and was therefore never intended to be a “Scotland Only” matter. And yes, I know it was introduced in Scotland first. That was unfortunate but only because it gave those opposed to it for political advantage in Scotland a chance to scream "Martyrdom"
I just hope the SNP get on with improving things in Scotland instead of playing childish games of, "We did it before you did so we're better than you!"
Once Holyrood grows up and stops pretending that all Scotland's problems are somebody else's fault then they might actually get on with doing something for both here and the Borders.
They should put a huge sign in the Chamber at Holyrood with a certain famous phrase on it, "The Buck Stops Here!"
That way they might actually get round to doing something worth while rather than sobbing into their malts all the time because it certainly doesn't do anything for the taste. Of course, if you can find somebody else to blame you can avoid having to accept responsibility for them yourself. Pointing a finger at a scapegoat is always the easiest way out.
Does anybody know if they've fixed the ceiling yet or are they still looking for somebody to pass the buck to over that as well?
Bluster away as much as you like, Jaws...........the fact remains that you were either under a misconception held by a large number of people, mainly English about the "convention".........or you told a blatant porky to stir it.
Why not just admit it instead of making an issue of something I only mentioned as a classic example of English votes making Scottish Law..or is it just that you don't like to be seen to be wrong? [lol]
Oh, and you are, I assume, aware that there was no Scottish Select Committee anyway from 1987 to 1992, because the Conservatives couldn't get enough English Conservative MPs to sit on the Committee to give them the required majority...so how did Scottish legislation get passed?
They managed to get one going again in 1992....but a Scottish Select Committee with English MPs on it isn't particularly Scottish, is it?
j4bberw0ck
19-Aug-07, 08:44
It'n no wonder Salmond doesn't want the English to vote on Scottish independence:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/11/26/nunion126.jpg
The result would make it look as though Scotland had been chucked out on its ear, as opposed to Scotland the Brave fighting and winning and finally overcoming its ancient enemy. Not at all what The Dear Leader has in mind.... (figures from Nov 2006)
You're pushing on an open door. Or like Del-boy Trotter, about to lean on an open bar top. :lol:
That's great, bring it on................but as to accuracy..........do you really believe that 70% of Scots support England when they are playing any team other than Scotland...because I don't!
And why should England get a vote on something which has nothing to do with them. It's like saying that your partner gets to decide if you get the divorce you want............and if they say no you're stuck with a marriage you don't want.
j4bberw0ck
19-Aug-07, 19:07
Hmmmmm..... I posted a reply to this, this afternoon.
Question; did I get something wrong in submitting it, after previewing and editing a couple of times, or did it get scrubbed because it contained the word "arse"? :lol:
Time will tell........ :cool:
Another scintillating comment from you with no pretence of responding to any previous remark.
It would be good to get input not insults.
But why break the habits of a lifetime.
porshiepoo
19-Aug-07, 21:21
Good blinkin grief!!!!!!!!!
Why, why why does any thread that contains the words Scotland and England have to turn into them and us for certain orgers?
Can there be no thread whereby one does not blame the other for absolutely everything that has gone wrong?
Good blinkin grief!!!!!!!!!
Why, why why does any thread that contains the words Scotland and England have to turn into them and us for certain orgers?
Can there be no thread whereby one does not blame the other for absolutely everything that has gone wrong?
And who is blaming anyone, Porshiepoo........this thread started as remarks about the future of the previous Scottish First Minister and comments on the lack of jumping on the two wages bandwagon.
It was about the media and Nulabour...not Scotland and England.
It was Jaws who inserted the remarks about the working of the Westminster government (which was complete fallacy)........and Jaws who refused to accept he was wrong.
I certainly wasn't blaming anyone for anything........just stating a few facts of life to prove to Jaws he hadn't a clue what he was talking about.
But hey, if you want to see every thread mentioning the Westminster Parliament or England as blaming anyone for anything............maybe it's because facts are chiels that winna ding.....so you take umbrage rather than try rebuttal.
porshiepoo
19-Aug-07, 21:58
And who is blaming anyone, Porshiepoo........this thread started as remarks about the future of the previous Scottish First Minister and comments on the lack of jumping on the two wages bandwagon.
It was about the media and Nulabour...not Scotland and England.
It was Jaws who inserted the remarks about the working of the Westminster government (which was complete fallacy)........and Jaws who refused to accept he was wrong.
I certainly wasn't blaming anyone for anything........just stating a few facts of life to prove to Jaws he hadn't a clue what he was talking about.
But hey, if you want to see every thread mentioning the Westminster Parliament or England as blaming anyone for anything............maybe it's because facts are chiels that winna ding.....so you take umbrage rather than try rebuttal.
So so defensive Oddquine!!!!!!!
I was simply pointing out that certain orgers seem unable to have a conversation about their country without feeling the need to play tit for tat.
Simple observation is all!
I know perfectly well what the thread topic was originally and I shall watch while it's undoubtedly turned into defensive slathering oops sorry, facts of life. ;)
So so defensive Oddquine!!!!!!!
I was simply pointing out that certain orgers seem unable to have a conversation about their country without feeling the need to play tit for tat.
Simple observation is all!
I know perfectly well what the thread topic was originally and I shall watch while it's undoubtedly turned into defensive slathering oops sorry, facts of life. ;)
I'm not defensive at all, porshiepoo.............in fact, if anyone is defensive it is yourself...........louping into a thread to bewail "Blame" when none was allocated.
I can't help it if I correct the erroneous statements of certain orgers and they, by arguing their misconception, compel me to correct them........which I will do until they can point me to information which confirms their remarks.
Not quite an attack, though, to become defensive about..............just ignorance!
j4bberw0ck
19-Aug-07, 23:21
Another scintillating comment from you with no pretence of responding to any previous remark.
Scintillating? Oh, I don't know. But it certainly responded in some detail to your post and it's a shame I'll have to have another go at it, though it won't be this evening. Some of us have to work tomorrow, after all; taxes to pay for the benefit of others, and all that.
It would be good to get input not insults.How curious, Oddquine, that you should think my use of the term "arse" was an insult. Actually, it was part of a quote from someone far wiser than I, and rather funny to boot.
But if the cap fits, dear, if the cap fits - a gentleman wouldn't suggest it, of course, but might well see fit to ask the question. [lol]
j4bberw0ck
19-Aug-07, 23:32
I can't help it if I correct the erroneous statements of certain orgers and they, by arguing their misconception, compel me to correct them........
Gee whiz. Is it just me or is that some seriously pompous? :lol::lol: Those who don't agree "compel you to correct them?"
Welcome to the modern face of nationalism. <groan>
Boozeburglar
19-Aug-07, 23:37
taxes to pay for the benefit of others, and all that.
You may well benefit from those taxes more than most, if you intend to stay in your rural retreat until the day comes that you need something back.
Just saying.
;)
Gee whiz. Is it just me or is that some seriously pompous? :lol::lol: Those who don't agree "compel you to correct them?"
Welcome to the modern face of nationalism. <groan>
Of course they do.........and it likely is seriously pompous.............but then I'm a seriously pompous, didactic and pedantic wee soul............especially when it comes to downright misconceptions/lies about Scotland.
Though I can see, if the misconception Jaws has is one which is generally held south of the border, why there would be the current complaints about the voting by Scottish MPs on England only issues.
j4bberw0ck
19-Aug-07, 23:44
You may well benefit from those taxes more than most, if you intend to stay in your rural retreat until the day comes that you need something back.
Just saying.
;)
Well, thanks kindly for your input. If I need a sub I'll be in touch. :lol:
Boozeburglar
20-Aug-07, 00:01
Well, thanks kindly for your input. If I need a sub I'll be in touch. :lol:
It would be simpler to fly back to the mainland really.
;)
porshiepoo
20-Aug-07, 08:03
Of course they do.........and it likely is seriously pompous.............but then I'm a seriously pompous, didactic and pedantic wee soul............especially when it comes to downright misconceptions/lies about Scotland.
Though I can see, if the misconception Jaws has is one which is generally held south of the border, why there would be the current complaints about the voting by Scottish MPs on England only issues.
Jeepers, if you were a dog you'd be a Rottweiler. You just don't let go do you! :lol:
IMO Jaws actually talks alot of sense - you just don't want to see it though as you're obviously still in the denial phase.
j4bberw0ck
20-Aug-07, 09:16
That's great, bring it on................but as to accuracy..........do you really believe that 70% of Scots support England when they are playing any team other than Scotland...because I don't!
Interesting. If you choose to question that part of a poll, why would you not choose to question all parts of all polls relating to the relationship between Scotland and the Scots, and England and the English? I'd be happy to believe that the Scots-supporting-anyone-but-the-English is a racial stereotype joke if my (strictly empirical) observation wasn't that there's a good deal of truth in it. Selecting and rejecting different parts of polls as they suit from moment to moment is a politician's trick.
And why should England get a vote on something which has nothing to do with them. It's like saying that your partner gets to decide if you get the divorce you want............and if they say no you're stuck with a marriage you don't want.Plain wrong, I'm afraid. The Act of Union is nothing at all like a marriage; it's not based on emotion and feelings no matter how much of both you have twisted up inside you. It's much more akin to a business contract in which both sides have legally-enforceable obligations and if those obligations aren't adhered to, there's an effect. Ergo, the English have as much of a say as the Scots.
Which is interesting because of course Alex Salmond has said the English won't be invited to express their opinion in a referendum (though by what authority, I don't know). But as I said above, it seems that if the English did have a referendum the carefully cultivated image of Scots as oppressed serfs beholding to the English and fighting nobly for Scottish freedom would be exposed, Scotland would be out, and the English would get on with the business of becoming even wealthier.
The comparison with a marriage is a poor one as well since there's a legal framework for resolving a collapsed marriage and protecting the interests of both parties and any children. There's no such framework for resolving a unilateral secession from the Act of Union.
As for terms of independence, as with any other contract, negotiation is needed and as the party trying to break the contract, the burden of making an equitable spilt might be expected to fall more heavily on the Scots. That nice Scotsman Mr Brown has already dropped a heavy (clunking?) hint that Scotland can go whistle for "its oil" because it's British oil, not Scottish, in his view. But you wouldn't expect him to give it up anyway, would you?
Then there's the much-vaunted abolition of Council Tax as "unfair". And the billion or so paid by Westminster to the Scottish purse to fund Council Tax Relief. Broon has also already said that if there's no Council Tax, there can't be any Council Tax Relief.
I've been involved in enough contracts to know that, OK, these are just opening comments to try to set the scene; but the fact remains (it seems to me) that the negotiations for a mutually-acceptable end to the Act will be long and tortuous and lead to an uncertain outcome for Scotland.
j4bberw0ck
20-Aug-07, 09:18
It would be simpler to fly back to the mainland really.;)
I'll see if I can hitch a ride on the Nimrod when it's next here. Kill two birds with one stone. :lol:
Lolabelle
20-Aug-07, 09:34
Isn't being an MSP a full-time job?
Sorry for butting in, but what is a msp anyway?? So I can make sense of this thread, and all the lively debate therein!
Sorry for butting in, but what is a msp anyway?? So I can make sense of this thread, and all the lively debate therein!
MSP = Member of the Scottish Parliament
j4bberw0ck
20-Aug-07, 11:42
the English would get on with the business of becoming even wealthier
Sorry, realised on re-reading that that comment maybe needs expanding on a little. What I didn't mean, in particular, is that Scotland is a drag on the UK economy; more that such a huge part of the UK's total earnings is now based on the City of London and its financial activities. If Scotland didn't receive a share of the national revenues on the basis of grant and subsidy, then it would leave the English richer and the Scotland having to find a means of making up the shortfall. Hence, an uncertain outlook.
And just for the record I have no problem with the fact that the amount of money from central Government is higher per capita in Scotland than in England. Of course it is; it couldn't very well be otherwise, given the relatively scattered population across a good deal of the country. Provision of services costs more. That simple.
Boozeburglar
20-Aug-07, 15:04
It'n no wonder Salmond doesn't want the English to vote on Scottish independence:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/11/26/nunion126.jpg
The result would make it look as though Scotland had been chucked out on its ear, as opposed to Scotland the Brave fighting and winning and finally overcoming its ancient enemy. Not at all what The Dear Leader has in mind.... (figures from Nov 2006)
You're pushing on an open door. Or like Del-boy Trotter, about to lean on an open bar top.
I don't know where that poll is from, but two things.
Someone said that they did not believe that 70% of Scots would support England playing another team.
The poll doesn't say that, it says 48%.
The poll also says that government spending is greater per head in England than in Scotland.
So this poll is rubbish, where is it from?
For what it is worth, I always support England, and loved it when they trounced Germany. The only time I favour their opposition is when they play us, or Brasil.
I am certain that if we gain 'full' independence the remaining North Sea Oil will quite rightly be ours, and in those circumstances nothing Gordon Brown's successor can do would change that.
All international laws would suggest that Scotland's Northern waters would be absolutely without debate Scottish, and whatever is in them.
Mind you Orkney has enough English to devolve and confuse the issue.
As for the idiotic arguments put forth about the merits of having a Scottish Parliament versus some representation in Westminster, would you suggest that Denmark should forget the Folketing and instead take a few seats in the Bundestag?
Yes there are 130 MSPs, but there are 650 odd MPs in the Commons and on top of that a House of Lords with 600 plus.
As time goes on and the duties increase MSPs will all be busy enough, and hopefully will become MPs too.
;)
Jeepers, if you were a dog you'd be a Rottweiler. You just don't let go do you! :lol:
IMO Jaws actually talks alot of sense - you just don't want to see it though as you're obviously still in the denial phase.
I have acknowledged Jaws talks a lot of sense, if you'd bother to read my replies without your "they're being nasty about the English again" specs on.
What I have been trying to do is convince him that he is talking a lot of mince about English MPs not voting on Scottish only issues before devolution. :roll:
Is that too difficult to grasp?
You are the one making this an England/Scotland argument.........not me............I have simply been replying to posts made.......after reading them carefully. Something you could do, perhaps?
j4bberw0ck
20-Aug-07, 16:02
The poll also says that government spending is greater per head in England than in Scotland. So this poll is rubbish, where is it from?
So it does; good spot. I suspect a misprint. If you right click the graphic and select "properties" you'll find it was originally published in the Telegraph; and as I pointed out, in Nov 2006.
I am certain that if we gain 'full' independence the remaining North Sea Oil will quite rightly be ours, and in those circumstances nothing Gordon Brown's successor can do would change that.Unlike you, I'm in no position to make a judgement; consequently I haven't. I've simply said that Mr Broon has said "no way" and pointed out that the consequence is an uncertain future and a funding gap.
Mind you Orkney has enough English to devolve and confuse the issue.I know, I know. We're like rats; we get everywhere. :lol::lol:
As for the idiotic arguments put forth about the merits of having a Scottish Parliament versus some representation in Westminster, would you suggest that Denmark should forget the Folketing and instead take a few seats in the Bundestag?
No idea. None at all. But should the English have a voice in unwinding the Act of Union? Yes, in short.
As time goes on and the duties increase MSPs will all be busy enoughYes indeed...... hence the Flanders & Swann song above - "It all makes work for the working man to do". Or if you prefer, Parkinson's Law: "Work expands to fill the time available". Whether any good comes of it is a separate point entirely.
porshiepoo
20-Aug-07, 16:29
I have acknowledged Jaws talks a lot of sense, if you'd bother to read my replies without your "they're being nasty about the English again" specs on.
What I have been trying to do is convince him that he is talking a lot of mince about English MPs not voting on Scottish only issues before devolution. :roll:
Is that too difficult to grasp?
You are the one making this an England/Scotland argument.........not me............I have simply been replying to posts made.......after reading them carefully. Something you could do, perhaps?
Ok ok this is ridiculous now. I apologise if you feel that I've twisted your intent on this particular thread.
I understand your patriotism, commend it even (not that I am suggesting you would care what I think) however, all I am pointing out is that on almost every subject that winds up involving Scotland and England you do seem to jump on your 'Scotland the Brave' but 'Scotland so hard done by England' soapbox.
I've re-read your posts as per your suggestion - Thank you by the way :roll: - and the undertone is always there. Sometimes subtly and sometimes not quite so.
Perhaps though I am reading more into your replies than is intended and maybe I am being as defensive as I accuse you of being.
Boozeburglar
20-Aug-07, 16:54
So it does; good spot. I suspect a misprint. If you right click the graphic and select "properties" you'll find it was originally published in the Telegraph; and as I pointed out, in Nov 2006.
I can see that, but is it a reader's poll?
Unlike you, I'm in no position to make a judgement; consequently I haven't. I've simply said that Mr Broon has said "no way" and pointed out that the consequence is an uncertain future and a funding gap.
I would add that I am talking about the type of independence we may have twenty years on, not any day soon, so our oil reserves might well be much smaller then. Broon is in no position to say nay on this, if we go the fiscal independence route he will have no say.
I know, I know. We're like rats; we get everywhere. :lol::lol:
Thanks God, there are a lot of wee schools re opening and wee communities surviving thanks to a healthy influx of families from South.
No idea. None at all. But should the English have a voice in unwinding the Act of Union? Yes, in short.
I don't think they should be part of a referendum on it though.
Yes indeed...... hence the Flanders & Swann song above - "It all makes work for the working man to do". Or if you prefer, Parkinson's Law: "Work expands to fill the time available". Whether any good comes of it is a separate point entirely.
Joking aside, I think there is enough real work to keep them going and more to come, so I would argue the numbers are adequate, not excessive.
Porshiepoo, I often feel your posts have a bit of 'mock the Scot' in them, and you keep on about us being self pitying.
I have heard no better from the English in all my years there. Complaining about the immigrants taking over London, blah, blah, blah.
Moaners are moaners.
To suggest it is a national trait in the Scot is pretty insulting, so don't be surprised by the reaction you get.
Just saying, you and Oddquine are no doubt a pair of cheery souls in teh real world!
j4bberw0ck
20-Aug-07, 18:11
No, it's not a readers' poll (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/26/nunion26.xml); it's an ICM poll.
I'm not sure how you conclude that the Prime Minister of the UK (or UK ex-Scotland if you will) has no say it what happens if Scotland elects for full financial independence, but no doubt you have your reasons.
As for a referendum, I'm not suggesting a UK-wide referendum is the way to go; certainly Scotland should have one, but there should be one also in England and Wales. If they vote "Yes" then the Scottish referendum is in the balance; it needs to provide enough votes either way to swing a majority for or against. If they vote "No" then the bar to Scottish exit from the Union gets raised.
Y'see, Boozeburglar, it's not really about democratic will (and there's some doubt yet that exiting the Union would be the democratic will of Scotland); it's about the terms of exit. The stronger the "Yes" vote in Scotland, the higher the price....... at least, that's the way it would work in any rational contract negotiation.
But wait! Silly me, we're talking Government and Civil Servants here; the very people who negotiated such a cunning contract with GPs that we now have no GPs working out-of-hours, yet GPs are being paid vastly more than they were before the "negotiations" began. (That's what you get when Civil Servants and politicians are turned loose amongst intelligent company; they get completely stuffed, but it takes a year or two for them to realise).
Simplistic notions about "Scottish oil" are a tiny, tiny part of what needs to be sorted out.
porshiepoo
20-Aug-07, 22:30
Porshiepoo, I often feel your posts have a bit of 'mock the Scot' in them, and you keep on about us being self pitying.
Firstly I've never said 'you' are self pitying. By way of your use of "us" I am assuming that you are suggesting that I have at some point described all Scots as being self pitying.
Show me where I have said that and I'll retract it and apologise to anyone it offended.
Secondly, mock the Scot? Get real. I have some very very good friends that are Scots and I would never wish or need to mock them.
I have heard no better from the English in all my years there. Complaining about the immigrants taking over London, blah, blah, blah.
Funny, I've had many of the same conversations with Scots here. It doesn't take being English or Scottish to moan about the amount of immigrants in the UK, just a modicum of intelligence.
To suggest it is a national trait in the Scot is pretty insulting, so don't be surprised by the reaction you get.
Point out where I have said that moaning is a national trait of Scots and I'll grovel at your feet in apology to anyone it offended.
Just saying, you and Oddquine are no doubt a pair of cheery souls in teh real world![/QUOTE]
Life and souls actually. :lol:
peter macdonald
21-Aug-07, 08:14
I have heard no better from the English in all my years there. Complaining about the immigrants taking over London, blah, blah, blah.
Well thats something I think you find in many West European capitals that there
is a higher ratio of multiculturalism
Funny, I've had many of the same conversations with Scots here. It doesn't take being English or Scottish to moan about the amount of immigrants in the UK, just a modicum of intelligence.
I notice you use the term UK ...Well it may be a problem in other parts but the reverse is the case in the Highlands but then again our problems are not those of eg London I dont think Londoners are very interested if the Scots Exec underspends on crofting or fishing quotas are cut or what a post Dounreay Caithness and Sutherland will look like and basically Im not overly interested in Londons problems with immigrants polution etc either
I also hope these Scottish people pointed out that we have depopulation in the most of Scotland especially here in the Highlands and that hard working immigrants (especially those with young families) should be made very welcome unlike some of the holiday/second home retiree brigade or the ones who buy crofts and then try to resell them after a year at double the price They generally contribute little or nothing to our community other than to inflate house prices whilst being nothing but a drain on services
As for the taking of jobs funny there has not been much difference to the numbers of people employed in Wick for example even with the arrival of recent immigrants from East Europe ..what does that tell us ??? that those folks are working ?? and some of those here before STILL arent ??
As for jobs in London ???
PM
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