TV expert

[veekay]

OK so in posting this I am leaving myself open to attack but how through watching television programmes can so many people become experts at this animal behaviour stuff. Surely it takes years of hands on training to be able to do the job properly. It scares me to read some of the so called advice given to people who are obviously looking for practical help.

These programmes and I admit to not watching them must be good for something even if just to give you an idea of what to do but to pass on this advice surely that would be a bit like watching a DIY programme and then re-wirning your house. Dangerous!

[porshiepoo]

Why should you be attacked for asking that?
It's a perfectly logical question!

Maybe I'm wrong but I can only assume that I am included in the 'Dangerous' few? :(
Speaking for myself I can honestly say that I have not simply watched a TV programme and decided I am an expert.
I have had dogs for as long as I can remember, ranging from tiddy widdy ones (we have a yorkie at the mo) to Great Danes.
I've shown danes for a few years so have handling experience.
I've been interested in canine psychology for years and have been through advanced dog training with all our shepherds except this last one (Found it to be too far away).
I've used methods similiar to Jan Fennels for years and was what I based my home training on until a few years ago when I started getting interested in canine psychology. Since then I've used methods similar to Cesar Milans, however when Cesar came on the scene it just dotted the I's for me that I couldn't quite get my head around.

I don't suggest solutions to people on here without having at least some experience of it myself wherever possible.
I've had dogs that have had fear aggression, nervous aggression, neurosis :eek: and many other symptoms of bigger problems and I've given hands on help to a few people resulting in success.
It wasnt until I started putting canine psychology into action that I got the results that I needed so quickly.
I'm not suggesting that I now have perfectly behaved, well balanced pack members 100% of the time. I still have problems that need ironing out, problems that usually creep up because I or a family member have gotten a tad slack with the pack leader status.

You're correct in suggesting that to watch a TV programme a few times and then try to carry out the methods seen could have drastic repercussions and actually make things worse.
I would suggest that anyone who tries these methods has at least some understanding of canine psychology.
A lot of it is common sense though. If you understand the dynamics of a pack it's actually quite easy to put the general stuff into place that will assert yourself as pack leader and there's nothing cruel about these methods as they do not involve hitting or yelling of any description.
Its quite amazing what we lwt our dogs get away with, things we'd never ever let our kids get away with. They all need rules, boundaries and limitations (yes, Cesars words again), only once this is firmly in place will you get the respect a pack leader deserves - works for both kids and dogs.
I think when you have big dogs or energetic breeds it's of a real benefit to learn how they 'work' and understand what they need to keep them balanced mentally.

[veekay]

I don't think I accused anyone of being dangerous. What I did say was that taking on board what is said in these television programmes without having any knowledge of the method of training or this behavioural stuff is dangerous. It is you who, said you were dangerous.

Surely these programmes have some sort of ' don't try this at home' message somewhere.

You might know what you are doing ( but don't lets get personal, I was just mentioning it in general) but to do the sort of thing you are suggesting when you have little or no experience of dogs and dog training is dangerous.

Surely the very best way is to go to dog training classes, this way you meet with people in a similar situation as yourself, work with someone who, hopefully, knows something about dogs and their behaviour and so will be able to give you advice and guidance. You will also be able to have a sociable dog a dog who isn't bored and one you will be proud to be seen with. They may still steal your dirty knickers from time to time but even Lassie wasn’t perfect!

[Manxman]

Haven't been around much lately so have been reading threads to catch up. I have been reading the advice given about dog training and feel I have to agree with most of what veekay is saying Surely TV shows are only for guidance and advice and only suitable for some dogs not all. Why is it only American programmes are quoted and not shows like dog borstal. I have watched both and think that three trainers advice is better than one.

Why are we going along the lines of TV and videos etc. when there are people out there like Caithness canine club, Greenland K9 training and Ashmont canine training ( a BIPDT accredited centre).

Seeing the way the world is going I would be very careful about handing out advice unless I had insurance as back up in case someone came back and said well I took your advice and look what happened.

[justine]

well i would give the thumbs up to the likes of the Dog Whisperer on sky three on thursday-friaday at 8pm.His name is cesar milian and he knows his stuff. Dog borstal is good aswell as i like the way mick trains the owners more than the dog...

[porshiepoo]

I don't think I accused anyone of being dangerous. What I did say was that taking on board what is said in these television programmes without having any knowledge of the method of training or this behavioural stuff is dangerous. It is you who, said you were dangerous.



Hmm, don't quite think I said I was dangerous more that you were intimating that people such as myself, who you assumed have no experience other than TV shows, could be dangerous.



Surely these programmes have some sort of ' don't try this at home' message somewhere.

Yep, they sure do.



You might know what you are doing ( but don't lets get personal, I was just mentioning it in general) but to do the sort of thing you are suggesting when you have little or no experience of dogs and dog training is dangerous.



Point out what advice I have given that could be dangerous!
Dangerous is to be left in charge of a dog and NOT asking for advice when a problem occurs.




Surely the very best way is to go to dog training classes, this way you meet with people in a similar situation as yourself, work with someone who, hopefully, knows something about dogs and their behaviour and so will be able to give you advice and guidance. You will also be able to have a sociable dog a dog who isn't bored and one you will be proud to be seen with. They may still steal your dirty knickers from time to time but even Lassie wasn’t perfect!



Depends on what kind of training you want and where abouts you live.
Training isn't as accessible for people up here especially if you live rural.
Why do you assume that just because someone may carry out on advice they've recieved on here that they won't have that sociable dog who isn't bored and you're proud to be seen with?

My methods are based on pack leadership and IMO these things can and should be put into place asap, even before a pup is ready for socialisation and training classes. These classes can go hand in hand with pack leadership methods but it's best to have at least some kind of leadership going on with your dog before attending training classes, it makes life so much easier if you know that you are going to have the attention and respect of your dog before you go.

I don't think I've ever suggested that anyone should do it my way and forgo the training of any other kind, quite the contrary actually, I've suggested that training / tacking classes could be just what some dogs need as it helps to keep them stimulated and help strengthen the pack leadership bonds.

Pack leadership methods do not need to involve anything that is dangerous!

[porshiepoo]

well i would give the thumbs up to the likes of the Dog Whisperer on sky three on thursday-friaday at 8pm.His name is cesar milian and he knows his stuff. Dog borstal is good aswell as i like the way mick trains the owners more than the dog...

Exactly!
It's the owners that need their problems ironing out not the dogs.
We pass on all our own neurosis, anxieties etc etc to our dogs and then wonder why the animal turns into a nightmare to walk or whatever.
Dogs are just being dogs, nothing more, nothing less.

Cesar Milan and his approach is IMO a breath of fresh air. His methods can't be that cruel or dangerous if he gets the results he does in the time he does without having to resort to any violence or yelling.
I think the most physical thing he does is when he pins a dog to the ground!
And yes, I've done this. It's not something that can be taken lightly, has to be done at the right time and you have to know that you can manage to keep the dog down otherwise you've probably just made a bad situation worse. It's not something I would recommend to anyone who has any concerns about being strong enough to do it.
I had a dane that kept attacking us by jumping up and pulling our hair trying to drag us down (This dog was rescued). I had to put him to the ground and the effect was immediate, he never did it again.
'Talking' to dogs using their own body language is the best way IMO to have that healthy, balanced member of the family.


Cesar Milan rules :lol:;)

[porshiepoo]

Haven't been around much lately so have been reading threads to catch up. I have been reading the advice given about dog training and feel I have to agree with most of what veekay is saying Surely TV shows are only for guidance and advice and only suitable for some dogs not all. Why is it only American programmes are quoted and not shows like dog borstal. I have watched both and think that three trainers advice is better than one.

I've watched most dog training programmes that are broadcasted. Out of all of them I would have to say that for me The Dog Whisperer is the most informative. He doesn't just show you how to interact with your dog but explains why.


Why are we going along the lines of TV and videos etc. when there are people out there like Caithness canine club, Greenland K9 training and Ashmont canine training ( a BIPDT accredited centre).

And all of those are great places to go but it doesn't have to be one or the other. As I said in a previous response pack leadership can begin as soon as you bring your pup or new dog home, before they're even old enough to go to training classes.



Seeing the way the world is going I would be very careful about handing out advice unless I had insurance as back up in case someone came back and said well I took your advice and look what happened.

That's just silly! Anyone can ask a question and anyone can give an answer!
All I am doing is suggesting ways that I find have worked for me.
Perhaps in the future I should follow it up with an essay of get out clauses!! :eek:

[Liz]

Crikey are we not supposed to pass on advice now based on our own experiences?!!!

Whether we choose to follow the 'teachings' of Cesar Milan or any other 'expert' do we not learn by passing on information to one another?

I haven't seen any of the advice passed on in this forum that could any way be construed as 'dangerous'?!
A dog attacking a vacuum; a puppy digging and stealing clothes and food!!!
Hardly the stuff of which litigations are made!!!

It's a sad world when we are afraid to pass on advice for fear of being sued!!!

[changilass]

Well said Liz, it will be a sad day when we can't ask for advise cos folks would be scared to answer us.

[Tyke]

Crikey are we not supposed to pass on advice now based on our own experiences?!!!

Whether we choose to follow the 'teachings' of Cesar Milan or any other 'expert' do we not learn by passing on information to one another?

I haven't seen any of the advice passed on in this forum that could any way be construed as 'dangerous'?!
A dog attacking a vacuum; a puppy digging and stealing clothes and food!!!
Hardly the stuff of which litigations are made!!!

It's a sad world when we are afraid to pass on advice for fear of being sued!!!

Thanks for bringing us all back down to Earth. I read this section often but rarely get involved because working with dogs is my profession, but this thread is making my head hurt.:confused
I am not going to come on here and say this or that works, because every dog is different with its own personality and needs. In my job I have to very quickly gain a dogs trust and respect, and it is not easy to do. The dogs that have been socialised correctly as young ones are more trusting and the ones that are living in rural area where they do not see other dogs or humans are far more difficult and sometimes it is impossible to gain the trust of these animals.
Dog training classes are fantastic, here a dog learns how to behave around other dogs and humans. I take my dogs to ring craft classes when I can, not so they can learn to walk round a show ring, but to socialise them.
By the way dogs that go ape around a hoover are doing it because of the noise and the fact that they think the owner is being threatend. He is trying to protect you. Common sense tells you when hoovering make sure the dog is out of the way. End of problem, life is too short.
I don't need to pay somebody £50 to be told that the reason why my dog is the way he is, is because he doesn't like what I feed him. I can see he is not eating. Dogs dig holes because they like to nest especially the bitches when in season. My westie bitch thinks her toys are her pups and when in season she digs a hole and takes her toys into the hole (nest).
I have done dog training and pysco courses and folks it is mostly common sense. Please if you have watched the doggy dominatrix on channel four, to me she talks a lot of sense. Sorry I can't remember her name but she does it for me.:eek:

[porshiepoo]

Thanks for bringing us all back down to Earth. I read this section often but rarely get involved because working with dogs is my profession, but this thread is making my head hurt.
I am not going to come on here and say this or that works, because every dog is different with its own personality and needs. In my job I have to very quickly gain a dogs trust and respect, and it is not easy to do. The dogs that have been socialised correctly as young ones are more trusting and the ones that are living in rural area where they do not see other dogs or humans are far more difficult and sometimes it is impossible to gain the trust of these animals.


IMO respect comes first. If you do not assert yourself as pack leader how can you expect a dog to respect you? If it doesn't respect you then why should it trust you? Respect has to come first then trust (IMO)

I think one of the problems today is that we conveniantly forget just how closely linked our cute little pooch is to wolves. As I said before 97% of all Dogs DNA is wolf and all the instincts that come with it, the power of the pack being one of the strongest.




Dog training classes are fantastic, here a dog learns how to behave around other dogs and humans. I take my dogs to ring craft classes when I can, not so they can learn to walk round a show ring, but to socialise them.

Completely agree that these classes are one of the best ways to socialise a dog but they're good for us also as it gives us a chance to learn how to socialise with our dogs around other dogs and people and also gives us the chance to watch and learn from how dogs interact with each other. It's quite fascinating really!


By the way dogs that go ape around a hoover are doing it because of the noise and the fact that they think the owner is being threatend. He is trying to protect you. Common sense tells you when hoovering make sure the dog is out of the way. End of problem, life is too short.

While I don't necessarily disagree with you on that one, I don't necessarily agree either. :confused
I certainly don't believe that 100% of the time a dog reacts that way to a hoover because it feels the need to protect. There are many times when it's purely a fixation due to lack of stimulation - common sense says that it has to come out in some way if a dog isn't adequately stimulated. They just are not mentally conditioned to live in the four walls of a house with the odd walk thrown in.
To make sure the dog is out the way when you're hoovering is not just inconvenient but is addressing the symptom only. It's not the end of the problem and IMO life is too short to not try to do something about it.
Surely when we buy / rescue dogs and intend to bring them into our homes as part of the family, we at least owe ourselves and them the time and effort it takes to ensure that we're all calm and healthy minded? Shoving the barking, neurotic hoover hating dog into another room simply isn't the correct answer for me, not when there are better options available.


I don't need to pay somebody £50 to be told that the reason why my dog is the way he is, is because he doesn't like what I feed him. I can see he is not eating.

I agree that maybe some dogs have a dislike for some foods but that is not the only reason a dog may not be eating. What about health issues? Also when our dogs stop eating for whatever reason we tend to panic. I've done it myself, fed my dog everything from chicken, beef, expensive dog food to cheap dog food. In actual fact when I forced myself to stop panicking about it the dog started happily eating again. It was me causing anxiety around his food that was sustaining the problem.




Dogs dig holes because they like to nest especially the bitches when in season. My westie bitch thinks her toys are her pups and when in season she digs a hole and takes her toys into the hole (nest).



Um, obviously males don't usually have that same inclination! :confused
Sure, it's obvious a bitch could get all nesty before, during or after a season, especially if they end up with the dreaded phantom pregnancy but let's look back to natural instinct. Dogs dig holes as burrows - to live in as well as to whelp in, they also dig to bury food so that it's safe for later, at which time they'll go back and either eat it or move it.
It's not quite so black and white.


I have done dog training and pysco courses and folks it is mostly common sense. Please if you have watched the doggy dominatrix on channel four, to me she talks a lot of sense. Sorry I can't remember her name but she does it for me.

Yep definately common sense IMO.
I've never heard of the person you mention on the telly so I cannot comment on their methods but alot nowadays do seem to work along the lines of pack instinct.

[Tyke]

I posted my reply very much tongue in cheek and to see what would happen;).

So everything that Porshiepoo mentioned I am already aware of.

What gets my goat are so called professionals telling one of my clients that the reason their dog was not feeling well was because he didn't like his food. When I got my hands on him he wasn't eating because he had swollen saliva glands and was in pain. So off to the Vet's - anti biotics and the dog is right as rain.

As for the programmes on the TV, pick and choose. What works for one dog doesnot work for an other. The owner knows their dog better than anyone else and with a little thought can usually figure out why their dog behaves in the way it does.

I seem to remember that some where along the line it was supposed to be fun to share your life with a dog. Enough said.

By the way Porshiepoo do you live in the east of the county.

[porshiepoo]

I posted my reply very much tongue in cheek and to see what would happen.

And you can guarantee I'll bite every time. :lol:





As for the programmes on the TV, pick and choose. What works for one dog doesnot work for an other. The owner knows their dog better than anyone else and with a little thought can usually figure out why their dog behaves in the way it does.

The problem is though that alot of owners just don't realise that there can be another way around problems. While puppy and training classes are very productive most of them don't go any further than learning commands, training for shows, socialising etc. To learn pack leadership and the power of the pack unfortunately usually means going elsewhere but using it in conjunction with regular training.
Not so easy for some people!



I seem to remember that some where along the line it was supposed to be fun to share your life with a dog. Enough said.

Quite right! But for me the fun would also be in knowing that I can take my dog a walk safely, I don't have to hide it every time the hoover is out or simply just knowing that my dog is in a healthy state of mind. I don't want to live in fear of playing with my dog because having fun would mean him getting so wound up I can't control him. Learning how to be a stable assertive pack leader helps immensly with most things.


By the way Porshiepoo do you live in the east of the county.

Why????????????

Could I ask what field you're actually in? (Dog wise not land wise - before I get someones flippant reply. lol)

[Tyke]

Well I think I know you when you went to Wick for ringcraft classes with a Great Dane, but not sure.

I run Ramscraigs K9 Services at Dunbeath and I am very happy with what and I do. I also breed and show Bearded Collies.:Razz

[porshiepoo]

Well I think I know you when you went to Wick for ringcraft classes with a Great Dane, but not sure.

I run Ramscraigs K9 Services at Dunbeath and I am very happy with what and I do. I also breed and show Bearded Collies.


Hmmmm, that makes me think I know you. Yes probably me with the Great Dane.
I know Graham who shows the Beardies and runs the Kennel so I'm assuming you're either him or his wife?
K9 services? Is that the grooming or do you do some kind of ringcraft / training classes too?
I found the ringcraft hall in Wick just too small for a Great Dane.
I've also had a few one on ones with a lady that did the training over at watten. She was absolutely fantastic and I would recommend her to anyone, for me it was just too far away to guarantee I could go consistantly though. :(

Oo Eck! Hope I haven't given the wrong impression with my replies in this thread? :eek:
I did attend the ringcraft classes at Wick for a while with Bailey as I was having probs with him after a really rough judge at Edinburgh.
In fact, this instance is another one that showed me just how much of 'his' problem was actually me anticipating 'his' problem. I felt so bad for him after that judge manhandled him and shook him up that I sustained his 'fear' as I saw it, by anticipating he was going to feel like that everytime we had a male judge.
When I actually got around to getting help to sort out my fear and nervousness around male judges, Bailey changed completely. Course then we moved back up here (again. lol) and I stopped showing him again.

How do you find the transport situation up here? The champ shows are just so far away aren't they. Edinburgh being the closest as far as I'm aware! It ends up taking 3 to 4 days a time just to attend one show and costs a packet in fuel and miles on the vehicle.
I looked out for the open show at the Ciathness club that's usually held every year but I guess I missed it as I never saw it.
It's such a shame that we're so limited up here.

[Tyke]

Porshiepoo you made comments on every part of my posts except for the part concerning a local professional suggesting that the dog was not happy because of the food it was eating only to find out that its saliva glands were blocked and the dog was in pain. He was charged £50 for this useless piece of information. By the way I have absolutely no idea who this professional was or is and I am not pointing a finger at anyone.

[crustyroll]

Sorry to jump in and sidetrack away from the thread, but Porshiepoo, have you shown in Inverness through the Highland Canine Association? I was there at their members limited in Febuary and I do remember some lovely looking Danes that my silly Chocolate Labrador wouldn't leave alone...lol

[porshiepoo]

Porshiepoo you made comments on every part of my posts except for the part concerning a local professional suggesting that the dog was not happy because of the food it was eating only to find out that its saliva glands were blocked and the dog was in pain. He was charged £50 for this useless piece of information. By the way I have absolutely no idea who this professional was or is and I am not pointing a finger at anyone.

Apologies, I didn't realise I needed to.
In my first response to your first comments on this thread I did actually disagree with you there when you suggested that the only reason a dog stops eating is cos they don't like the food. I did actually suggest health issues could be a consideration.
I don't know what else to say or how you think I should respond! Obviously I don't know the person who gave your client this advice.

Most dog owners 'know' their pet and I for one would know if my dog is off his food because he suddenly doesn't like it or whether I think there could be other reasons perhaps medical that need investigating.
I'm not a qualified dog psychologist but I know that if I were, such a case as the one you descibe would have to have medical reasons exempted before I would attempt behavioural methods.