View Full Version : Madeleine McCann
connieb19
06-Aug-07, 18:58
Has anyone else been reading anywhere that the Portugese police are now dismissing the abduction theory after blood was found in the Mcanns apartment. Cavader(sp) dogs were brought in and have detected that there has been a dead body in the appartment at some time. If it was Madeleines body then it means that she must have been dead there for at least 2 hours(the dogs wouldn't have picked upthe scent otherwise) which now means that there are flaws in the timescales previously given.
The police are now focussing their attention on the Mcanna and the group of people who were on holiday with them.
:~(
This is such a sad string of events. A sweet young child has vanished and possibly has died. Layers and layers of intrigue and accusation oscillating around. It will be a sad but yet comfortable day whem closure finally arrives... or rather, if. :confused
Hi Connie,
Where did you read this?
Karia
Ricco,
Have you read this too?
Or is it yet more conjecture and supposition?
karia
Highland Lass
06-Aug-07, 19:22
you can read it on telegraph news website.
connieb19
06-Aug-07, 19:33
Ricco,
Have you read this too?
Or is it yet more conjecture and supposition?
karia
Meaning what, Do you think I've made this up?
Hmm for some strange reason I'm not permitted to post a link...odd!:confused
connieb19
06-Aug-07, 19:36
I'll need to post this in 2 parts because it is too long.
Re:MISSING Madeleine
Below is a translation of an article from another Portuguese paper.
Correio da Manha - 5 August 2007
The PJ is focusing its investigations on the circle close to the McCanns and is trying to reexamine (toward excusion “depistar”) clues that pointed to Robert Murat. The thesis of an abduction is beginning to be discounted, after English dogs detected a scent that points to the existence of a body in the holiday home.
The PJ believes that Madeleine may have been killed in the Algarve apartment where she was spending her holidays with her parents and brothers, in May. The Cocker Spaniel dogs, specially trained by the English police, on the trail of the missing child since Wednesday, detected a scent that points to the presence of a body in the premises.
Yesterday, after having conducted searches on the beach, where the body may have been thrown into the water, the authorities centered their attention on Robert Murat’s home, the only suspect in the case.
The same dogs conducted a search of the entire garden of Casa Liliana - which was subjected to cleaning operations and the uprooting of trees by the Civil Protection - but nothing was found. They left the preimses at 20.00, not having detected any traces of the presence of the girl.
The trail now being followed by the police, revealed yesterday in ‘Sol’ and confirmed by Correi da Manha, complements the other information gathered at the beginning of the investigation and which confused the PJ. A sniffer-dog used by the GNR police picked up a trace of the child between the apartment where Madeleine was sleeping and a second house in the same complex, which led the PJ to never exclude the possibility that the child had been taken by someone who knew her.
The scent detected now in the McCann’s apartment recentres the investigation on the immediate circle of the girl’s parents and friends, although the reasons that may have led to the child’s death remain unknown. The PJ is showing special caution at this phase of the investigation and the names of the principle suspects have not been shared.
connieb19
06-Aug-07, 19:38
Murat may be innocent
The searches that were conducted yesterday at the home of Robert Murat could contribute to clearing the suspect. Nothing of relevance was found at the home of the English translator, who was declared a suspect early in the case. A possibility that is supported by his lawyer Francisco Pagarate, who yesterday reaffirmed to Correio Da Manha the innocence of his client. “”We ae leaving the GNR in the house to avoid damage” he said, noting nevertheless that the search continued today and that the presence of the military overnight was to ensure that there would be no damage to the site overnight.
According to Correio da Manha’s inquiries, the investigation has done a U-turn in recent weeks. The arrival of the English dogs and taking them to the holiday apartment was done to confirm this possibility, given that the suspects are now centered in the immediate circles of the McCann famil, the only ones who can explain the alleged detah of the child, while still at home.
The theory of an abduction, according to a PJ source contacted by Correi da Manha, appears increasingly unlikely, given that this could only have occurred in a scenario in which the child was alive. Yesterday’s searches, backed by a judicial warrant, began at 0730.
Body at least two hours in the house
A body only has the odour of a cadaver a minimum of two hours after death, until then, it remains warm and transmits, to any dog, the odor of a living person, indicated to Correio da Manha submission Paulo Brisso, former deputy commander of the Grupo Operacoinal Cinotecnico of the PSP.
In other words, for a Cocker Spaniel of the English authorities to have detected Madeleine’s death in the apartment in which she was sleeping, at the Ócean Club’, the girl must have been dead in the location “between two and four hours”.
Paulo Brisso, who was also a trainer of military dogs for the Air Forces, explained that “Portugal does not have dogs with the ability to search for deceased people because the chemical product used to training, simulating the odour of death, is expensive.
[… some text on past experiences of using dogs with other detection skills - drugs, etc, in Portugal]
The search continues today
The PJ’s search of Robert Murat’s home will continue all day today. Nevertheless, because the search of the grounds needs to be completed first and the investigators left the residence by 2000, their return in the morninig is expected to be early. During the whole day intense work continued to clear the grounds of Casa Liliama, where Robert Murat lives with his mother. The gardeners of the Civil Protection cleared the entire zone that had been virtually abandoned, rendering any search difficult. Besides the uprooting of trees, trails were made to better allow the dogs to detect any possible clues, although none were found.
Meaning what, Do you think I've made this up?
Hmm for some strange reason I'm not permitted to post a link...odd!:confused
Hi Connie,
No such aspersions I can assure you.
Simply, that as there was no link or reference so I had to ask where you had read it.
Ricco also posted without even saying that he had read it, far less giving a link or reference and it was his post I was replying to.
Thanks to Highland Lass for clearing things up.
Karia
connieb19
06-Aug-07, 19:46
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23407178-details/Police+/
anneoctober
06-Aug-07, 20:16
Is the sighting of "maddy" in belgium, the photofit and the glass that was taken for examination, mistaken identity? I have n't heard an update. :(
connieb19
06-Aug-07, 20:24
Breaking news in Portuguese TV. This is on right now,
The blood is not analysed yet.
The same dogs which were used at the apartment were/are being used to investigate cars which were at a parking lot (near the resort I think). 10 cars were investigated. It is known that one of them was used by Murat's mother, and another one by the McCann's.
9 out of the 10 cars were already removed from the parking lot, one is left, it might or might not be their car.
The McCann couple are suspects, as is everyone who had contact with the room.
Is the sighting of "maddy" in belgium, the photofit and the glass that was taken for examination, mistaken identity? I have n't heard an update. :(
I read in the sunday papers that they should get results by Wed this week - well thats what they tell us anyway.
anneoctober
06-Aug-07, 20:46
I read in the sunday papers that they should get results by Wed this week - well thats what they tell us anyway.
Thanks for that Victoria. I hope that neither of the McCanns are involved in this, it puts a different light on all the publicity this case has received. I would like this story to have a happy ending, as does everyone.........but it's not looking good right now.
Boozeburglar
06-Aug-07, 21:44
I think it is a wee bit early to get into all this speculation; the main news channels and papers are not quite framing it in the way it sounds from reading these posts.
Just my opinion, of course...
;)
That's what I was afraid of!
Let's hang fire and see what transpires, for once.
karia
i for one hope she is found soon, deep down i think she is still alive, hopefully there is some truth in the sighting in belgium but you just dont know whats true:~(
Sorry, I should have included a link to the news article. No doubt you have all seen today's BBC & ITV news about blood-like stains in the apartment that will be tested.
anneoctober
07-Aug-07, 18:17
I think it is a wee bit early to get into all this speculation; the main news channels and papers are not quite framing it in the way it sounds from reading these posts.
Just my opinion, of course...
Point taken on board ! I've been keeping up to date with Sky News etc, although I realise that I did n't make this clear:( Have duly slapped myself on the wrist - is this enough to say sorry.....;)
caithnessgirl
08-Aug-07, 10:47
they mentioned on the radio news yesterday that other families have been staying in the apartment since maddie's disappearance,
Surely you'd think if this was still being treated as a crime scene they wouldn't be letting the apartment out to other people?
I find the whole situation a bit strange and some things just dont seem to add up. I hope there's a resolution soon and they find out what happened to the poor wee soul :(
:~(just checked sky news and the dna on that bottle in belgium isnt maddies"!
where is she?!
I would guess that the blood in the apartment isn't Madeleine's either. I certainly hope it isn't.
Hundreds of people will have stayed in there and the bood will most likely have come from one of them. Some say it's suspicious because there was an attempt to clean it up. Well, wouldn't anyone clean up if they got a bit of blood on the wall?
i know, really hope it isnt hers, and how come they are just finding it now, and they are saying if it is hers then its an accidental death and trying to be covered up
I imagine the Portuguese police didn't have access to the special dogs until now, but I don't know what led them to call in those dogs at this time. The dogs are supposed to be able to detect the presence of a body that is at least two hours old but the Portuguese police don't give much information to the public so unsubstantiated speculation is rampant in the press.
connieb19
08-Aug-07, 17:16
Allegedly Portugese police suspected a month ago that Madeleine had died in the appartment and the dogs were just used as corfirmation.
anneoctober
08-Aug-07, 18:40
The belgian link is useless, although the lady who retrieved the soft drink bottle is still certain that it was Maddy she saw. They're still looking for a couple seen with a young girl resembling Maddy in a black
volvo? car. Someboby must know what's going on, why are they holding back?
i dont why, i can stop thinking about her, i think that if someone in belgium does have her, once its publicied it will have awful consequences............
i hope she is found alive but if she is, what on earth is her state of mind
Evening anne,
Sadly, it's probably a case of well meaning, wishful thinking on the lady's part.
The only folks who know something, are implicated in it and will obviously hold back.
Still a long way from knowing who is responsible for this sad chain of events, though you'd be mistaken for thinking otherwise when reading the 'Red Tops'
The 'Press' get to publish a new version of events every day and wipe the slate clean with a 'new and more shocking' discovery when the fabled star pregnancy, divorce etc. fails to materialise.
Same with poor Madelaine, each new 'revelation' surpasses the last and we forget the 'innacuracies' published yesterday as we pursue todays latest revelations.
The press do not care about Madelaine McCann.
They care about the 'story' of Madelaine McCann...and how quickly they can publish any nasty evidence when it comes in..and beat their competitors to the shock factor.
Karia
I don't think the amount of information the Portuguese Police do or don't give out is the cause of all the speculation. The police here, in certain cases, give almost hourly updates and a blow by blow account of what is or isn't happening but that still does not stop the wild speculation. With Maddie, even the so called "serious papers" are now at it.
To be honest, with all the constant publicity, I'm surprised that there haven't been a constant stream of spurious "sightings" reported every single day, which is what normally happens.
I don't think the amount of information the Portuguese Police do or don't give out is the cause of all the speculation. The police here, in certain cases, give almost hourly updates and a blow by blow account of what is or isn't happening but that still does not stop the wild speculation.
I don't know if constant information is the best in this (or any) case. What I do know is that portuguese law does not allow the police to give information as freely as here (UK). They just can't. We have something called the "secret of justice" which limits the information the authorities can or cannot disclose. Portuguese law has many flaws. Just like here, you can find people of all walks of life and of all personalities. Madeleines abduction has profoundly affected the average family person. People there used to feel apart from the vicissitudes of the modern world and now those are visited in force on their door step. We are all sad and feeling for this family and for the loss something hard to describe.
The problem is that we British have an inbuilt belief that our way of doing things is far superior to that of those "Funny little foreigners" and if only they did things the way we do there would be no problems.
As for the outcry in our Media about the behaviour of the Portuguese Press then before they start wagging the finger they should take a long hard look in a mirror.
Much of the media here suffer from a massive problem of overactive imagination before the facts are known and once they are they immediately become highly qualified in the Exact Science of Hindsight.
Much of the reporting here has been has been just as wild as any by the local press there. What they cannot cope with is that they are not having their egos brushed by being treated to the excessive attention they are used to getting here with a constant flow of the latest information hand-fed to them by the authorities.
What they hate most is that they are not being put in the position where they can accuse, prosecute, try and sentence some poor soul before any court has got near a case.
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-07, 10:20
an interesting and thought provoking piece about the McCann's (http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=18685527&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=6)
im having mixed feelings towards the mcanns, saw an interview on sky news this morning and im unsure of what i think now
:~(
an interesting and thought provoking piece about the McCann's (http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=18685527&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=6)
Interesting article, Nick. Many logical questions asked, highlighting alleged inconsistencies that I hadn't even noticed so far.
Ash, what was it about the interview that made you review your own thinking of the McCanns, just curious as I never saw it.
Personally, I'm still clinging on to the belief that the McCanns are genuine, and that Maddie was abducted - probably because I cannot comprehend how revulsed (sp?) I would be if it does transpire that the McCanns know more than they are telling us. :confused. Whilst I would agree that their media campaign may not be doing much for their own public image, it is at least keeping Maddie in the spotlight. As for the arguments that their behaviour is not what would be expected of parents who's child has been abducted - well, I don't think any of us can possibly say how we would react as individuals to such a horrific situation.:(
when they we are asked if madeline was watching this now and if they could say anythin to her now all they said was that we love her but she knows that, and it was the way they said it, im just confused, i could be looking to much into it
when they we are asked if madeline was watching this now and if they could say anythin to her now all they said was that we love her but she knows that, and it was the way they said it, im just confused, i could be looking to much into it
No, fair do's, it does sound a bit odd that they wouldn't even want to re-assure her that they're still looking for her or whatever.:confused
i mean i hope and pray that they have nothing to do with it, but these days u never know, the world is a sick place and is full of sick people!
look at the soham murders - a teacher and a caretaker these are people who they should be safe with :confused
Dear me, you are not allowed to have doubts about their behaviour.
They have played the "sympathy card" with near genius and have got themselves on a pedestal so high that to many people they are totally beyond reproach.
Rather than even hint at questioning their actions you would be better off admitting to being a mass murderer.
Did anyone notice this morning in the press that Robert Murats' solicitor is slating the McCanns in saying that they should be hounded out of his country and back to Britain. Now i am not taking sides, but i do think this type of remark is despicable to say the least. I don't think either, he has helped his client in making such comments. What do you think?
yeah i know what ya mean, it makes it seem like they want the mcanns out of the country so its forgotten about, so maybe murat does have something to do with it:confused
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-07, 12:18
Hmmmmm
We could perhaps take a slightly different view. So far it would appear that Robert Murrat has nothing at all to do with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann (or at least that there is no evidence to link him to it), yet he has been vilified and hounded by the press.
As an innocent man having been through the mill of tabloid trial is it any wonder he wants the McCanns away from his home, after all he lives there they have just decided to have an extended holiday, and flaunt themselves all over the media for some reason known only to themselves.
I think my sympathies if any lie at this moment in time with Robert Murrat. (If ever they find any evidence linking him to the case then my opinion will change!)
Has anybody hear of any definite connection between Murat and hat happened to Maddie other than suspicions, accusations and innuendo?
As far as I can see, the only "crime" was that a journalist, no doubt seeking glory, told the police that he was being too inquisitive and therefore he must have some involvement.
After that, the only other people who have attempted to link him to the incident have been friends of the McCanns who suddenly became "certain" they had seen him.
Even the great Investigative British Media have failed to make any solid connection to him.
Under the circumstances I think he, and his lawyer, have been very patient. If I had been subjected to the treatment he has received from the media I suspect they would have received some very short, sharp comments in my best Anglo-Saxon which would definitely get a ban if used here.
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-07, 15:22
An interesting factoid I've just heard from a friend of mine that lives in Spain is that the press in Spain - and Potugal - face huge financial penalties if they print anything that they know to be false.
He also suggests that the information being published over there is more likely to be from very credible sources probably within the police, than from anywhere else.
I certainly don't think we've heard the last of this one yet!
Boozeburglar
10-Aug-07, 15:30
Hmmmmm
they have just decided to have an extended holiday, and flaunt themselves all over the media for some reason known only to themselves.
This has to be one of the most crass and repulsive remarks I have read on here.
(Adding the following for clarity, and because I don't want to initiate the downfall of an otherwise informative general interest thread:-
It does not mean I think the author is crass or repulsive though. I understand that views are becoming polarized as time moves on in regards to this story; though I feel the negative ones appear to be driven by the media backlash. I can understand how someone might come to view the family involved as something other than grief stricken parents desperately trying to hold onto little hope. Until it is proven otherwise though, that is exactly what they are and if it was me I would still be there.)
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-07, 15:36
You think so?
They have 2 other children, and both have jobs which are important to society.
The very best thing for children in a time of crisis is normality. Indeed it is probably also the very best thing for adults too.
Are they made of money that they can afford to simply state that they will remain in Portugal until their daughter is found? Or are their publicly funded jobs still paying them? What do they expect, for her or her abductor to simply sneak her back into the apartment?
There is nothing whatever to be gained by staying in Portugal.
And please, tell me that they haven't been flaunting themselves all over the media, because if they haven't then I live in a different universe to you.
But is it untrue, Boozeburglar?
Boozeburglar
10-Aug-07, 15:44
they have just decided to have an extended holiday/ for some reason known only to themselves
'just decided'?
'some reason'?
I suppose they had this all plotted out, and are enjoying basking in the media gaze then, how simple it all is.
NickInTheNorth
10-Aug-07, 15:49
'just decided'?
'some reason'?
I suppose they had this all plotted out, and are enjoying basking in the media gaze then, how simple it all is.
I totally stand by both of those comments.
Yes, they have "just decided" there is no tangible benefit in them staying in Portugal, and many many reasons for them to leave.
And yes again to "some reason known only to themselves" do you know why they have done so?
And please don't put words into my mouth I never suggested for one second that they had "this all plotted out" whatever "this" may be. Maybe you could enlighten us?
Boozeburglar
10-Aug-07, 16:08
I totally stand by both of those comments.
Yes, they have "just decided" there is no tangible benefit in them staying in Portugal, and many many reasons for them to leave.
And yes again to "some reason known only to themselves" do you know why they have done so?
And please don't put words into my mouth I never suggested for one second that they had "this all plotted out" whatever "this" may be. Maybe you could enlighten us?
I wasn't quoting you, so why do you suggest I am putting words in your mouth?
They have over and over stated that they are remaining there to keep the case high profile, and they are succeeding in that aim.
Boozeburglar
10-Aug-07, 19:13
But is it untrue, Boozeburglar?
Yes.
"they have just decided to have an extended holiday, and flaunt themselves all over the media for some reason known only to themselves."
As far as I know their daughter was abducted or whatever else, and that is the reason they have stayed there. The 'decision' was made for them.
They are all over the media because keeping the profile high is advisable in any case of child abduction, as time elapses sightings are less likely, more so where the media drop the story.
Interesting, this comment about two other children. I was beginning to wonder whether I had imagined that there were two other children. They are older children, right? Why has there been nothing of their opinions? Did they not wake up and see something or hear something that night?
Please understand, I am NOT finger pointing, I am just curious that there has only been information coming from the parents... nothing from her siblings. Curious.:eek:
anneoctober
10-Aug-07, 21:49
Interesting, this comment about two other children. I was beginning to wonder whether I had imagined that there were two other children. They are older children, right? Why has there been nothing of their opinions? Did they not wake up and see something or hear something that night?
Please understand, I am NOT finger pointing, I am just curious that there has only been information coming from the parents... nothing from her siblings. Curious.:eek:
The twins are younger than maddie, and from what I read initially, they were interviewed/questioned, but appear not to have heard or seen anything:(
Interesting, this comment about two other children. I was beginning to wonder whether I had imagined that there were two other children. They are older children, right? Why has there been nothing of their opinions? Did they not wake up and see something or hear something that night?
Please understand, I am NOT finger pointing, I am just curious that there has only been information coming from the parents... nothing from her siblings. Curious.:eek:
Hi Ricco,
Nope, they are younger!
K
they were not even 2 I think but could be wrong, which is another reason I find this whole case appalling :( a lot can go wrong in 2 minutes with small children :~( never mind checking every 30 minutes
Yes.
"they have just decided to have an extended holiday, and flaunt themselves all over the media for some reason known only to themselves."
As far as I know their daughter was abducted or whatever else, and that is the reason they have stayed there. The 'decision' was made for them.
They are all over the media because keeping the profile high is advisable in any case of child abduction, as time elapses sightings are less likely, more so where the media drop the story.
Visits to the Pope, visits to President Bush, trips to Germany? There had been no connection between Maddie and any of those places.
If they want to stay in Portugal to be readily available to the police for any developments then well and good. But who was doing that when there was a lot more developments going on than now and they were busy Globe Trotting?
There have been two allegedly "definite" sightings of Maddie, one in Marrakech the other in Belgium. Did the McCanns go to either place to help the police? No they did not.
I would have thought that they would have been keen to go to both places to see what information was available about their daughter and to be on hand to assist the local police with information about Maddie and to "raise awareness" in both places. Did they, not on your life, they stayed with the Media Circus in Portugal.
Most of the media interest of late has been focused on what the McCanns were doing rather than anything to do with information about Maddie.
they were not even 2 I think but could be wrong, which is another reason I find this whole case appalling :( a lot can go wrong in 2 minutes with small children :~( never mind checking every 30 minutesThere were others in what was a fairly large group of friends some of whom were, by their own version, doing the same thing.
Surely the sensible thing to have done would have been for one of them to forgo the odd night out socialising and stayed in the apartments to take care
of the various groups of children?
The various versions given by the McCanns and their friends, never mind the supposed leaks rom the police, over the period since Maddie went missing have more holes than a rusty sieve.
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-07, 12:49
The various versions given by the McCanns and their friends, never mind the supposed leaks rom the police, over the period since Maddie went missing have more holes than a rusty sieve.
So, JAWS, care to tell how you got the job of overseeing the Police investigation and acquiring the hard information that enables you to make such a sweeping statement? :lol:
I suspect that Daily Express has been taking a beating again....... :roll:
The information is all there if you bother to check it. All you have to do is eliminate the obvious media guess work along with the sob-stories. It also helps if you are able to remember what has been said prior to the last set of reports and comments.
Which part of what I have said do you find to be in error, other than your usual sweeping dismissal of any body who raises an alternative viewpoint to your own?
Why the Daily Express? Have you got something against that particular paper seeing you seem to think indicating any information came from there is less accurate than any other media source.
At least they don't have reporters who have the local police chasing down dead ends for weeks on end.
Other than that you never know, you might be closer to being right than you will ever know.
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-07, 17:10
All you have to do is eliminate the obvious media guess work along with the sob-stories.
How does one determine the difference between obvious media guesswork and obvious JAWS guesswork?
Which part of what I have said do you find to be in error, other than your usual sweeping dismissal of any body who raises an alternative viewpoint to your own? Oh, JAWS. Cut me, do I not bleed? My viewpoint, at its simplest, is that there's a police investigation which will be followed, if someone is charged, by a process which is intended to determine guilt or innocence. You seem to be pre-judging the whole situation, yet can't possibly know any more than the rest of us do.
Second, since your only source, unless you really are running the police side of things, is the media you sneer at, you must be picking the bits you like, discarding the bits you don't, and concluding things like the McCann's story being "as full of holes as a rusty sieve". How can you possibly know that? Or, since your knowledge of the whole unfortunate incident seems so definite, perhaps the Portuguese police should investigate you.......... at least Murat seems to know nothing. :lol:
Why the Daily Express? Have you got something against that particular paperOh yes. It's the paper of choice of the closed-minded Little Englander.
Hi,
Latest news, C4 right now.
The Portugese police have just announced that they now accept that Madelaine may be dead, following recent evidence.
They are also stating that the McCanns and their friends are not being treated as suspects.
Karia
j4bberw0ck, you have obviously swallowed the "accredited" version without question and have not shown anything to contradict my observations.
I am simply going off what the McCanns have said in interviews at various times over the last 100 days.
Check the post you refer to and please say which part is guesswork, the Vatican, America, Germany, Belgium or Morocco?
One thing I do know is that when somebody's explanation of how something happened changes on more than one occassion as circumstances dictate then you have to question why. I suggest you check back and see which of the several versions of what happened between 9 and 10 on the night Maddie disappeared you wish to accept, just who checked what, where and when?
I have already said that there was, and never has been, anything concrete to connect Murat to the incident other than gossip, innuendo and wishful thinking. Your point on that subject is simply to agree with what I have already said earlier, I suggest you check post 42.
It’s not all that long ago that people were baying for his blood because it was “obvious he had done it”.
Where on earth does the “Little Englander” come into it? I know Portugal is in the EU but I don’t see that as relevant to anything. If it's meant as some sort of ridicule then it fails miserably but it did raise a mild sympathetic smile.
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-07, 20:35
j4bberw0ck, you have obviously swallowed the "accredited" version without question and have not shown anything to contradict my observations.
I've swallowed nothing. I just have an open mind. I'll admit to thinking it unlikely that the McCanns murdered their own child; unlike you, I'm not engaging in sophistry.
I am simply going off what the McCanns have said in interviews at various times over the last 100 days. I'm sure that if you reflect on what you've said you'll realise that what you meant to say was "going off what the McCanns have reportedly said in interviews at various times over the last 100 days".
Check the post you refer to and please say which part is guesswork, the Vatican, America, Germany, Belgium or Morocco? All factual. All irrelevant. Their purpose is profile raising, and I'd say that by keeping the disappearance their daughter in the public eye for 3 months they've accomplished the almost impossible. Without what they've done, the world would have forgotten Madeleine McCann 90 days ago.
I have already said that there was, and never has been, anything concrete to connect Murat to the incident other than gossip, innuendo and wishful thinking. Your point on that subject is simply to agree with what I have already said earlier, I suggest you check post 42. My purpose wasn't to suggest that you think Murat knows something; more to highlight that you actually know nothing but have simply recycled media tripe and presented it as your own.
Where on earth does the “Little Englander” come into it? I know Portugal is in the EU but I don’t see that as relevant to anything.<sigh> having to explain everything has its tedious side to it. You asked me if I had anything against the Express and I explained. I didn't suggest you're a Little Englander (or a Little Scotlander, for that matter). But, JAWS, if the cap fits........... :lol:
mild sympathetic smile.Aww bless! Are you sure it's not wind?
On more than one occasion you have made the comment about my getting all my information from the Express making a direct link between me and that paper. As a result you made the comment
Oh yes. It's the paper of choice of the closed-minded Little Englander.
I think your meaning behind that comment is clear enough.
As for what the McCanns have said on various occasions you obviously do not pay attention to their carefully arranged Press Conferences.
As for the "Publicity" and their trips to visit various countries and people my point was that on the two occasions where people have been convinced that they have seen Maddie. If those people were right then one must assume she would still be somewhere in those Countries for at least a short time the McCanns however have not bothered to go to those Countries at all.
If anywhere needed massive publicity about Maddie then surely it would be in the vicinity of somewhere where it was believed she had just been seen.
The Belgium "sighting" would appear to have been discounted but the Morocco sighting has not. The last report was that the woman who says she saw her is still convinced she was right. I don't know how widely the case has been reported in Morocco, if indeed it has. For all anybody knows she could still be there and being seen regularly by people who have never heard of her.
It would appear that ensuring there is wide publicity about Maddie in Morocco just isn't worth the effort even though the possibility she is still there has not been eliminated.
Do they have loads of media staff in Morocco?
j4bberw0ck
11-Aug-07, 23:44
On more than one occasion you have made the comment about my getting all my information from the Express making a direct link between me and that paper. As a result you made the comment
I think your meaning behind that comment is clear enough.
More than once, indeed. Twice, actually. And without accusing you of being an Express reader, each time I've made the point that you're behaving (and sounding) like one.
As for what the McCanns have said on various occasions you obviously do not pay attention to their carefully arranged Press Conferences. True. I have a life to lead in the real world. I don't feel the need to try to do the Police's work for them; I have confidence that sooner or later they'll get it right.
If anywhere needed massive publicity about Maddie then surely it would be in the vicinity of somewhere where it was believed she had just been seen.<sigh> There you go again; "believed". No Jaws, reported. Even on this board we have at least one person who by their own admission "can't stop thinking about her (htthttp://forum.caithness.org/showpost.php?p=252762&postcount=27p://)". Given a regional population of say 350 million, it's hardly unlikely that a few people would be convinced they've seen her; in a sample that size I'd expect a couple of cases of stigmata, too. I think a rational person might conclude that, rather than legging off to Belgium or Morocco on a whim, the McCanns stayed put until the Police validated the "sighting". The fact that neither was validated probably tells you all you need to know.
A further piece of evidence which supports my contention that you're recycling meejah gossip is your continued use of the name "Maddie". She has never, ever, been known to her parents, or referred to by them, as "Maddie" - always "Madeleine". The British press reptiles shortened it to "Maddie".
Anyway, I must away and leave you to joyous anticipation of a few more pages of "Maddie" over breakfast in the Sunday papers.
I think most people on here know who is meant by "Maddie", I am sorry for not using her full and parentally accepted name.
With respect to the sightings, I too am amazed that there hasn't been a sighting every day.
a rational person might conclude that, rather than legging off to Belgium or Morocco on a whim, the McCanns stayed put until the Police validated the "sighting". The fact that neither was validated probably tells you all you need to know.
So the McCanns stayed put rather than go to either Morocco or Belgium, where there were reported sightings, on a whim.
Then why did they decide to make trips to Germany, Italy and America where there had been no reports of sightings?
How do you know that neither of the sightings are not "validated"? As you would say, have you got a source of information that none of us knows about
or are you just going off reports you have read in the press?
Waiting until the reports were validated means waiting until the girl has been traced and found. Until that happens there can be no "validation" of her whereabouts. Using that argument then it isn't worth trying to look for her because looking for her is a waste of time until it is already known where she is.
The Belgium sighting would appear to have been presently dismissed because of DNA but there is till the question of an unknown little girl with two adults who seemed out of place with her, in a car which, allegedly according to the Belgian Police, was bearing false plates who is still unaccounted for.
As far as Morocco goes, the possibility that it was the missing girl is still there. So far nothing has been reported to say otherwise so there is the possibility that she is in Morocco and going unnoticed for lack of publicity.
And pray do tell, what does a Daily Express reader sound like? I dearly would like to know so that I can recognise them when I hear any.
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-07, 00:56
I think most people on here know who is meant by "Maddie", I am sorry for not using her full and parentally accepted name.
Worry not. I'm sure they won't hold it against you.
So the McCanns stayed put rather than go to either Morocco or Belgium, where there were reported sightings, on a whim. Then why did they decide to make trips to Germany, Italy and America where there had been no reports of sightings? Do try to keep up, Jaws. Profile raising. Meeting politicians (and I include the Pope in that), Getting publicity.
How do you know that neither of the sightings are not "validated"?Uh, because the McCanns didn't go there (twit!)
As you would say, have you got a source of information that none of us knows about or are you just going off reports you have read in the press? Good try, but you'll need to work harder. But I'm generously disposed this evening; 2/10 .
The Belgium sighting would appear to have been presently dismissed because of DNA Exactly. It can be inconvenient, DNA.
but there is till the question of an unknown little girl with two adults who seemed out of place with her, in a car which, allegedly according to the Belgian Police, was bearing false plates who is still unaccounted for. Then let us earnestly hope the Belgian police are investigating it and looking hard for convenient DNA.
And pray do tell, what does a Daily Express reader sound like? I dearly would like to know so that I can recognise them when I hear any.Shrill. :lol:
Shrill. :lol:Shrill, but somewhat less shrill than her Daily Mail reading neighbour. Express readers don't like to be challenged by common sense xenophobia, they are lulled to sleep by it, ever so gently.
I can't say I'm convinced that there are major 'holes' in the McCanns' stories. They were out enjoying themselves and probably didn't notice or remember who did what or when. I suspect most folk wouldn't.
Then you obviously read the Daily Express.
So presumably, from you explanation, because the McCanns went to Germany, Italy etc. there must have been "validated" sightings there or they would not have gone.
The explanation you use for them not going to Belgium or Morocco does not wash. Places where there has been more reason to believe the girl could have been are places where publicity is of more use, not half way round the world where she is highly unlikely to be. Had the DNA in Belgium belonged to the missing girl then by the time that was verified she would have been long gone. Until the negative result came through there was still every possibility she could have been there.
It would appear that you are of the opinion that the Belgian Police, who have a very poor record when it comes to paedophile groups, can be trusted to do their job but the Portuguese Police are in need of people hanging round their necks all the time.
America, I would suspect, at the present time would be one of the more difficult places to get into with a child without a passport and I have heard no suggestion that her passport is also missing, yet off they go to get publicity there. .
Travelling around Europe without a passport, yes, because there are very few, if any, border checks so moving from Country to Country is fairly easy.
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-07, 01:37
I can't say I'm convinced that there are major 'holes' in the McCanns' stories. They were out enjoying themselves and probably didn't notice or remember who did what or when. I suspect most folk wouldn't.
Thank heavens for a bit of common sense...........
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-07, 01:48
Then you obviously read the Daily Express.
Don't bet your last tenner on it, Jaws.
So presumably, from you explanation, because the McCanns went to Germany, Italy etc. there must have been "validated" sightings there or they would not have gone.Jaws, I'm afraid you're having trouble with reading and comprehension again. Last time I looked there was very little resemblance between His Holiness and Madeleine McCann.
Had the DNA in Belgium belonged to the missing girl then by the time that was verified she would have been long gone. Until the negative result came through there was still every possibility she could have been there.
Yet you don't think the McCanns would have been on the next flight had the DNA match been made? You're having trouble with this "parent" thing, aren't you?
It would appear that you are of the opinion that the Belgian Police, who have a very poor record when it comes to paedophile groups, can be trusted to do their job but the Portuguese Police are in need of people hanging round their necks all the time. I said that? Good Lord. And for how long have you hung yourself around the neck of a Portuguese policeman? I think we should be told.
I have heard no suggestion that her passport is also missingDamn that meejah! You mean they gave you no information?????
yet off they go to get publicity thereYes, meeting the President of the United States, a newsworthy story even in Morocco, regardless of what you think of POTUS on a personal level.
changilass
12-Aug-07, 01:50
They were out enjoying themselves and probably didn't notice or remember who did what or when. I suspect most folk wouldn't.
Most folks wouldn't go out enjoying themselves and just leave their kids in a room on their own, or at least I hope they wouldn't!!!
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-07, 01:54
There was some spirited debate on that at the opening of the thread. For the record, I'm on the side of those who don't feel the need to have their children in front of them at all times.
I remember being allowed to play without constant parental supervision as a young child. It was rather good.
changilass
12-Aug-07, 01:58
There is a big difference between being able to play without constant supervision and leaving kids on their own at night to go out partying when supervision was available.[disgust]
For gods sake the twins were even younger than maddie, they were not of an age when you would leave them unsupervised [disgust]
Most folks wouldn't go out enjoying themselves and just leave their kids in a room on their own, or at least I hope they wouldn't!!!This may be the case but it's not the point I was addressing.
My point is that a group of people enjoying themselves in a restaurant or tapas bar will most likely not remember the precise detail of who checked the kids at what time. It has been suggested that one should question why there are various versions of who checked whom at which time. I was providing what I think is a reasonable explanation of possible inconsistencies.
Whether or not the McCanns and their friends should have left their children unattended is a different issue.
changilass
12-Aug-07, 02:46
Sorry Crayola, I accept your point, I honestly couldn't say at exactly what time we check up on the wee man in his own bedroom during the night, probably couldn't even say how often as we do it automatically without thinking.
This case has been a topic of interest here several times. No-one except Madelaine herself knows the real truth & despite what they did or did not do, Gerry & Kate McCann are suffering horribly - of that I am sure.
In the meantime several Caithness.orgers are determined to score points off each other by sniping or poking cheap jibes at each other depending on what newspaper/TV channel they have read/listened to. I'm not interested in that.
I have a real interest in the fact that a child has gone missing. Whatever the circumstances, if I was Kate McCann right now, I'd use the media or whatever means available to bring that child home safe to me. Who knows what the McCann's are being advised and who are we to judge them?
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-07, 08:53
In the meantime several Caithness.orgers are determined to score points off each other by sniping or poking cheap jibes at each other depending on what newspaper/TV channel they have read/listened to. I'm not interested in that.
It's OK not to be interested in that. I think, though, if you reread what I've said you'll see that my point is very much the same as yours - that prejudging and interpreting and drawing inferences from what the McCanns do, or don't do, is fruitless, pointless, stupid and cruel. The media are driving it all and a significant number of otherwise intelligent people have been drawn into a "pin the tail on the McCanns" game. I'm happy to try to pin the tail on the shark. :lol:
Whatever the circumstances, if I was Kate McCann right now, I'd use the media or whatever means available to bring that child home safe to me. Who knows what the McCann's are being advised and who are we to judge them?Thank you. My point exactly. Please tell Jaws.
Boozeburglar
12-Aug-07, 10:45
I agree completely with the last two posts.
Well said.
There is a big difference between being able to play without constant supervision and leaving kids on their own at night to go out partying when supervision was available.[disgust]
For gods sake the twins were even younger than maddie, they were not of an age when you would leave them unsupervised [disgust]
How awful it sounds,that is the bottom line.
NickInTheNorth
12-Aug-07, 12:16
This case has been a topic of interest here several times. No-one except Madelaine herself knows the real truth & despite what they did or did not do, Gerry & Kate McCann are suffering horribly - of that I am sure.
In the meantime several Caithness.orgers are determined to score points off each other by sniping or poking cheap jibes at each other depending on what newspaper/TV channel they have read/listened to. I'm not interested in that.
I have a real interest in the fact that a child has gone missing. Whatever the circumstances, if I was Kate McCann right now, I'd use the media or whatever means available to bring that child home safe to me. Who knows what the McCann's are being advised and who are we to judge them?
Can't disagree with too much of that Moira. But I am intrigued to know how you think all this media hype can help to bring the wee lass back.
The perpetrators if such they be of this terrible crime know full well what they have done. Glad handing folks in the US will not help anyone.
Trying to rebuild a normal life for the two children they still have with them would I believe be a far better use of their time than this ridiculous crusade on which they have embarked. It is strange how little reference is made to the twins in all of the media hoopla that goes on. Without wishing to be crass (and I know several people will assume that I don't mean that) surely it is no good crying over spilt milk. The parents should now be making sure that their other children are cared for in a safe loving home environment.
i dont think we should be putting the blame on anyone i for one am going to feel awful if its nothing to do with the parents as i have had doubts... lets just hope she is found hopefully alive if not let her body rest in peace:~(
It would seem that the only opinion which some seem to believe may be expressed is that the McCanns are absolutely correct in all they do and say and that it is intolerable to suggest or even consider anything else.
If there is no point in discussing any other view then there is no point behind much that has been said on the subject.
People now know what the girl (calling her Maddie seems to cause some people to believe that is a reason to be dismissive of the views of others) looks like and as such it would appear that nothing else is of consequence.
If there is no point in questioning the McCanns actions because it does nothing to help with the girls (reason explained above) return then neither does over sentimentalising their actions either otherwise the girl (I cant be bothered to type out Madeleine every time, the speling is too hard) would have been returned long ago.
Turning the McCanns into world celebrities on the route to sainthood themselves does nothing to help the girl either.
What irritates me is that one pretty blonde girl and her parents should be dealt with as far more important than any other missing child during the last 60 years.
As far as I am concerned she is no different than any other child, and there have been several in the last couple of decades, who have gone missing whilst on holiday without the public showing the least concern.
According to what some have said any discussion, or indeed support, for the McCanns is a waste of time because it obviously has not, and is unlikely ever to, assist with the girls return.
As a result, would somebody explain why such threads as this exist? Personally I see not reason why they should not and no reason why people should not express various views.
Everybody has a right to their own opinion and one view is more morally or emotionally right that any other.
I have my own opinions of the reason behind the McCanns actions and it is no more right and certainly no more wrong than anybody else's opinion.
Madeline Mcann isnt the only childs abduction/dissaperance that has been brodcasted in this way : Sarah Payne, Milly Downing, Soham Murders why hasnt anyone complained about these?
is because these children werent missing for that long and they were found dead, maddy hasnt been found and if i was like the mcanns and had enough money to keep themselves in the public eye then i would!
when there wasnt any new developments they werent in the news but now that there has been sightings and blood found its only natural to be in the news
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-07, 15:27
Absolutely right. Well said. Although it only "may" be blood. Not yet determined. And even if it is it may not be Madeleine's.
I agree wholeheartedly with you ash, if it was my child I would want to stay put where she disappeared (and as they believe their wee lassie is still alive) to be there for her return to me. Also if I could afford to keep the story in the press I would do so by whatever means possible. Somebody somewhere in the world might see the picture and recall a child they've seen recently who looks like that. Better 30 mistaken identities than none at all, and it might, just might save a little girls life.
NickInTheNorth
12-Aug-07, 16:16
but what about what is best for the other two children involved? How are their best interests served? Going home and trying to get some sort of normality back, or living "on holiday" for the rest of their lives?
The names you mention have one thing in common, read them again and think back. None of their parents deemed it necessary to arrange for a "publicity team" to surround them and none of them even went to visit the PM let alone anybody else.
The McCanns have made sure that they personally have constantly been in the news since the very first opportunity. They have made sure that their faces are as well known as that of their daughter. Can anybody say that of the parents of any of the other children which have been mentioned? Can anybody even say what colour their parents hair was, let alone recognise a picture of them?
And to clarify one point, should anybody be misled, I have never made reference to anything about the scene where the "abduction" occurred. Neither have I made any accusations that any specific person or persons were implicated in any way with the girls disappearance. As for the blood which has allegedly been found, at this stage I consider that to be nothing more than an interesting co-incidence until it is established otherwise.
As to the actions of the McCanns with respect to the media and publicity there is no opinion which is definitely right or wrong and the way one person reads is no more valid than anyone else's.
Has anybody stopped to consider the possibility that with all the massive publicity if somebody has abducted the girl, and even that is not been definitely established, and I say "definitely" intentionally, that they could well have been panicked into disposing of her rather than be found with her?
As far as I can see people who suggest anything other than the "accepted" version of matters are to be vilified as heartless, stupid, or even, in some cases, have it implied that, because they disagree, be implicated in some way. At whatever lengths are deemed necessary by some, those people have to be bullied into accepting the popular view.
Well, sorry, I still have an open mind about what has happened, how it has happened and indeed the actions and reactions of those around it.
The only thing that is certain is that a little girl is not where she should be and currently nobody seems to know her whereabouts.
As far as I am concerned expressing unbridled support and sympathy for the McCanns is not obligatory and failure to do so does not mean any lessening of care about the fate of the little girl which also seems to be some peoples opinion.
they are young children and to be quite honest they arent going to understand whats going on, they have their parents there,being looked after, they look happy.... and thats the main thing, they will be criticised if they go home and not continue the search for maddy and the same if they stay
well i can say personally i can remember those others families i mean sarah paynes mother and father were all over the news as was holly and jessicas parents!
if my wee one was gone and i could be in the media i would be!
i would want everyone to search for my child and to find her alive
maybe we have different parenting skills!
but what about what is best for the other two children involved? How are their best interests served? Going home and trying to get some sort of normality back, or living "on holiday" for the rest of their lives?On Radio4 yesterday, Mrs McCann stated that as a result of what had happened her husband had been able to spend more time with the twins than he would have normally.
Make of that comment what you wish! Unless, of course anybody wants to write it off as nothing more than Inventive Tabloid Twaddle!
The parents left the children unsupervised so they could go out for a meal.
They are paying the price for their stupidity.
Their daughter may be found eventually - hopefully alive and well. If not, then they are going to have to live with the guilt of their stupidity for the rest of their lives.
They could have lost all three of their children. As it is they will have to explain to the twins when they are old enough where their older sister went to.
When their daughter is eventually found should they should face charges of child neglect or as the Americans call it 'child endangerment'? Does Portugal have a similar law?
Leaving all 3 of their children in their apartment whilst they enjoyed a meal in another part of the complex makes me wonder about their abilities as parents....
they are young children and to be quite honest they arent going to understand whats going on, they have their parents there,being looked after, they look happy.... and thats the main thing, they will be criticised if they go home and not continue the search for maddy and the same if they stay
But we are assured by the McCanns that the twins are missing her and are constantly asking about her so they would appear to be very aware that there is something "strange" happening around them concerning their sister.
Madpict, my sentiments exactly and I suspect, seeing the motives for my opinion of the McCanns actions are in question, that the McCanns are on a "damage limitation exercise" with some of their publicity stunts to impress upon people that they are really "attentive caring parents".
For those who see this as a momentary lapse of parental care it would seem that the group had been at the Tapas Bar for over two and a half hours before their daughter was missed.
It would also appear that people who were not part of that group but who are aware of some of the timings and locations of the group have versions which are at odds with those given by the group. Of course, that is easily dismissed as rather inconvenient tabloid muck-raking.
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-07, 16:42
but what about what is best for the other two children involved? How are their best interests served? Going home and trying to get some sort of normality back, or living "on holiday" for the rest of their lives?
Crying over spilt milk, I think you described the McCanns as doing. Strange sort of simile to employ; oh look kids, your sister's disappeared, she might well be dead, but hey-ho let's not cry over spilt milk, eh? We'll all just whistle a happy tune and keep a low profile so a few cynical curmudgeons don't get upset :roll: ...........
If research shows that very young children cope with death and divorce rather well, seen over the long term, why would a couple of two year-olds be damaged or disadvantaged in the long term by being in Portugal?
you are all missing the point here!!
a little girl is missing - where she is nobody knows - do her parents have anything to do with it - nobody knows
but this little girl if still alive will be scared - confused missing her family
there is no point in still saying 101 days later that they shouldnt have been left alone - we already know this , the whole world does
what matters is that this little girl is found
Don’t worry, NickInTheNorth, you are in good company. Anybody who does not accept that the McCanns can do no wrong have to be dismissed as uncaring. gullible, heartless, tabloid reading morons.
Welcome to the club.
Fine, Ash, so if people leave their children alone and go out then something should only be done about it provided the children remain safe and well.
If something untoward happens and nobody knows what has happened to the children then that’s different and the parents should be left alone.
Punished if nothing bad happens but forgiven provided something bad does? Mmmm. I’ll have to think about that one.
connieb19
12-Aug-07, 17:19
there is no point in still saying 101 days later that they shouldnt have been left alone - we already know this
Have her parents actually said yet they were wrong to leave her, I remember her father saying what they did was no different to being at the bottom of the garden. Maybe it's time they admitted that what they did was wrong.
Also if they have enough money to stay in Portugal and tour the world why are they not paying out of their own pockets instead of setting up a fund? I believe people are doating to the fund thinking this money will all go towards finding Madeleine when infact it is to support the familys stay there.
Ok people, get ready to shoot me down in flames - I am posting MY OPINION once & once only - I will NOT be defending my opinion, I have no need to - it's what I think & what I feel - full stop.
Yes, it was very sad to hear of Madeleine's disappearance during what should have been a pleasant family holiday of 2 professional people and their 3 children.
Yes, it was a bit of a surprise to me personally, to hear that 2 doctors would leave children of this age somewhere unsupervised. You would think that they would know better, and if they wanted the freedom to enjoy themselves in the evenings, then bearing in mind the ages of the children, a complex which catered for this should have been the obvious choice. Or will someone try & tell me that maybe they couldn't afford it? :eyes
Had the parents been here in this country & socially less well off (put as delicately as I could) then would we all be as sympathetic? I think not.
So, the bottom line is again, In My Opinion, IF the children had NOT have been left, none of this would have happened - end of. I am sorry for them that this has happened, but they only have themselves to blame.
Anyone who would like to follow Gerry's Daily Blog :confused can find it here:
www.findmadeleine.com
Also the updated information on the fund:
Donations of £946,843.92 have been received to the fund to date.
Personally, I tend to not watch the news regarding this anymore - the truth will out eventually & in the meantime, I will dodge the media circus surrounding the whole thing.
I now stand against the wall & let you all shoot me... feel free.
Julie
I believe people are doating to the fund thinking this money will all go towards finding Madeleine when infact it is to support the familys stay there.
it says on the website -
Funds will be paid to Madeleine's Fund: Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited: Company Registration Number - 6248215
3. The objects of the Foundation are:
3.1.1 To secure the safe return to her family of Madeleine McCann who was abducted in Praia da Luz, Portugal on Thursday 3rd May 2007;
3.1.2 To procure that Madeleine’s abduction is thoroughly investigated and that her abductors, as well as those who played or play any part in assisting them, are identified and brought to justice; and
3.1.3 To provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine’s family.
3.2 If the above objects are fulfilled then the objects of the Foundation shall be to pursue such purposes in similar cases arising in the United Kingdom, Portugal or elsewhere.
I think what you say is very fair and well considered comment, julie.
Just to clarify one point, despite the fact that the McCanns originally said that their children were left because the unsure of getting a safe babysitter, it would appear that the complex they were at not only holds a list of babysitters but also provides a creche which is available until quite late in the evenings. It would certainly seem that the situation had no need to have arisen in the first instance if even a little consideration had been given to it..
They are now quite happy to have been leaving the 2 year old twins at a creche which, it would appear, is run specifically for British Tourists.
Further to that, although I may be wrong, this is a complex which they have visited previously so this would not appear to be a case of having just arrived and not knowing anything about the place.
I have, on a previous occasion, made the suggestion that had the social status of the parents concerned been less "acceptable", for want of a better word, and have been assured by people on this board that their full support and sympathy would be just as full and unquestioning.
That is a point I will watch out for very closely indeed especially in view of the condemnation hurled in the direction of young mothers living in certain
circumstances.
It's OK not to be interested in that. I think, though, if you reread what I've said you'll see that my point is very much the same as yours .....
Aww j4bberw0ck - I appreciate you reassuring me that it is OK not to be interested in some posters here trying to score points off each other. Thank you. I don't need to re-read your posts - I read them fine the first time around.
......But I am intrigued to know how you think all this media hype can help to bring the wee lass back.
Trying to rebuild a normal life for the two children they still have with them would I believe be a far better use of their time than this ridiculous crusade on which they have embarked........ surely it is no good crying over spilt milk. The parents should now be making sure that their other children are cared for in a safe loving home environment.
Nick - quite simply I meant that by going to the press initially, the McCann's were looking to raise public awareness of their missing daughter. By ensuring the story was kept in the public eye, they probably hoped that someone, somewhere would remember some small thing, however insignificant it seemed at the time, which would lead them to finding Madeleine alive, quickly. The fact it's turned into a circus is whose fault exactly?
Maybe they should have known better, maybe they'd like to return home tomorrow and try to rebuild their lives with the twins, maybe.... And if they did just that, what's your best guess at the tabloid headings the next day?
I don't think they are on a "ridiculous crusade", the same as I don't think they should have left the children unattended in the first place. They're hardly "crying over spilt milk" Nick and with hindsight we'd all be perfect.
Ok people, get ready to shoot me down in flames - I am posting MY OPINION once & once only - I will NOT be defending my opinion, I have no need to - it's what I think & what I feel - full stop.........
I now stand against the wall & let you all shoot me... feel free.
Julie
Thanks Julie - the "disclaimer" in the first paragraph of your post is brilliant. I don't often post here for the simple reason I don't have the time, energy or ... sometimes the inclination to then respond to direct replies. I always have an opinion, however, which keeps me compelled to logging on here when I can, just to see what you're all up to.
We don't shoot posters here - all opinions are welcome. You've obviously sussed out the need to develop a thick skin on here already. Well done - and welcome to Caithness.org :)
For those who wish to know what "really" happened on the night of the disappearance here is the story from an absolutely reliable (to some) source who claim to have knowledge of the full information
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/08/12/maddy-was-alive-when-taken-98487-19613517/
j4bberw0ck
12-Aug-07, 23:47
For those who wish to know what "really" happened on the night of the disappearance here is the story from an absolutely reliable (to some) source who claim to have knowledge of the full information
http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/08/12/maddy-was-alive-when-taken-98487-19613517/
Reassuring that you're including conditionals now; "really" and "claim", for instance. But still unable to resist meejah hype, unfortunately!
I feel very uncomfortable with what I am going to say but when is it a reasonable time for parents in the McCann's position to come home and start to put their lives back together? The world's attention span will, at a time in the near future, grow tired of their plight and I believe there is a lot of people who already are (I maybe one, not sure, I feel guilty enough to think of it).
They've shown themselves to be exemplary in every way in their efforts to find Madeleine but I do hope that they come home of their own free decision without people starting to work against them and thus forcing their homecoming on them.
Boozeburglar
13-Aug-07, 08:57
Of course they could, on the other hand, take up residence in Portugal. It is ultimately up to them, and I don't think anyone anywhere has the right to dictate to them what is best for them.
j4bberw0ck
13-Aug-07, 09:10
Well said that Boozeburglar........ it's no one's business but their own. I do agree, Rheghead, about the exemplary nature of the McCanns, and their single-minded determination.
Did anybody see the piece on the news at tea time last night about the mother that lost her daughter while on holiday in Ireland 20 years ago? She stayed on in the holiday resort for 8 WEEKS before deciding to go home (incidentally in another past of Ireland) with her other kids, who all thought it was an extended holiday. She says she fully understands the McCanns in what they are doing. She still holds on to the hope that her daughter will return home, even after all this time, she even has a picture, drawn up by an expert, showing what her daughter might look like now. None of us really know what we would do until we are in that same situation. God forbid.
It is ultimately up to them, and I don't think anyone anywhere has the right to dictate to them what is best for them.
I agree, no one should dictate, but hopefully they can take stock of the situation and realise that the most healthy thing for them is to come to terms with their loss and get on with their lives.
Well said that Boozeburglar........ it's no one's business but their own. I do agree, Rheghead, about the exemplary nature of the McCanns, and their single-minded determination.
I disagree that it's theirs and their own business alone, the safety of any child is the concern of everyone.
percy toboggan
13-Aug-07, 19:11
I agree, no one should dictate, but hopefully they can take stock of the situation and realise that the most healthy thing for them is to come to terms with their loss and get on with their lives.
Try to come to terms perhaps.
You probably didn't mean to sound so perfunctory Rhehead, but that's how it read.
Buttercup
13-Aug-07, 20:06
Ok people, get ready to shoot me down in flames - I am posting MY OPINION once & once only - I will NOT be defending my opinion, I have no need to - it's what I think & what I feel - full stop.
Yes, it was very sad to hear of Madeleine's disappearance during what should have been a pleasant family holiday of 2 professional people and their 3 children.
Yes, it was a bit of a surprise to me personally, to hear that 2 doctors would leave children of this age somewhere unsupervised. You would think that they would know better, and if they wanted the freedom to enjoy themselves in the evenings, then bearing in mind the ages of the children, a complex which catered for this should have been the obvious choice. Or will someone try & tell me that maybe they couldn't afford it? :eyes
Had the parents been here in this country & socially less well off (put as delicately as I could) then would we all be as sympathetic? I think not.
So, the bottom line is again, In My Opinion, IF the children had NOT have been left, none of this would have happened - end of. I am sorry for them that this has happened, but they only have themselves to blame.
Anyone who would like to follow Gerry's Daily Blog :confused can find it here:
www.findmadeleine.com (http://www.findmadeleine.com)
Also the updated information on the fund:
Donations of £946,843.92 have been received to the fund to date.
Personally, I tend to not watch the news regarding this anymore - the truth will out eventually & in the meantime, I will dodge the media circus surrounding the whole thing.
I now stand against the wall & let you all shoot me... feel free.
Julie
You're not alone Julie, I have the same opinion.
Reassuring that you're including conditionals now; "really" and "claim", for instance. But still unable to resist meejah hype, unfortunately!
That was for the simple reason that most people would assume that those words would not have needed to be included. They were added simply because you seemed unable to do that.
As far as “media hype” is concerned, the only people who are guilty of falling for that are those who are accepting the “authorised version” of events without question and are unable to accept that others do not. Had I realised that my comments were to be treated as a legal deposition I would have included them in the first instance.
Of course, if the only thing you find to comment on is pure pedantry then that would explain a great deal.
Personally I hope Madeleine (for the benefit purely of j4bberw0ck's sensibilities regarding posters choice of newspapers) is found soon, in fact very soon, in absolute truth, the sooner the better for everybody.
And to be absolutely pedantic myself, I would point out that Madeleine (for the benefit purely of j4bberw0ck's sensibilities regarding posters choice of newspapers) has only “allegedly” been abducted.
Anybody want to assert that when this is all over the McCanns will not be "selling their story" to some newspaper or writing a book?
All in the name of "Keeping Madeleine ((for the benefit purely of j4bberw0ck's sensibilities regarding posters choice of newspapers), if she is still missing, in the public consciousness", or other missing children if she is not?
percy toboggan
14-Aug-07, 19:01
You're not alone Julie, I have the same opinion.
So have I - almost.
Not quite the same cynicism or slightly barbed hostility
Broadly though, I think you are spot on.
This couple have cocked up badly and will have to live with it.I have said before on here that I do not condemn them. What good would that do, and I have a measure of compassion about me - unlike some (not you)
I do not believe they are involved in the girls disappearance either.
If, as you say the lower socio-economic orders had been involved here they would have been crucified, and forgotten by now.
j4bberw0ck
14-Aug-07, 19:36
Anybody want to assert that when this is all over the McCanns will not be "selling their story" to some newspaper or writing a book?
All in the name of "Keeping Madeleine ((for the benefit purely of j4bberw0ck's sensibilities regarding posters choice of newspapers), if she is still missing, in the public consciousness", or other missing children if she is not?
Gee whiz, no sooner do we get you trained to use a few conditionals here and there to blunt the edge of your omniscience than you go flapping off in another direction to enable you to claim "I told you so" if they do. You wouldn't have to buy any such book, you know - though I suspect your nasty little sense of enjoying being holier-than-thou at other people's misfortune would make it inevitable you'd be down at Tesco to get a copy. Just so you could read, interpret, and use it to fuel your own smug sense of "the truth".
I imagine you, as a kid, pulling the legs off crane flies but not quite having the cojones to admit to enjoying it.
By the way, and on a point of information, it's "posters' choices of newspaper". "Posters choice of newspapers" is largely meaningless. Even when repeated. Grunt. :lol::lol:
I do apologise for my slight error in grammatical expression. If that is the best you can do to find fault with my post then I am quite satisfied that I am not too far from an accurate assessment.
Had I known I was entering an examination on English Grammar I would have taken more care with my apostrophes.
Is there anyone else who is so pathetically pedantic that they failed to comprehend my post? I seem to recall we had a poster some time ago who, when all else failed, took to correcting minor spelling errors, the definitive use of the words a poster made use of and fussing over grammatical correctness as a ploy when he could find nothing in a post he could disagree with.
I notice you didn't say my comment was in error or don't you have the courage of you convictions about the McCanns motives?
I see that most of the McCanns comments of late have been about their feelings rather than about their missing daughter and her feelings. It seems that all they wish to hear is the praise of sycophants.
As for the personal comments, don't bother, I've had better attempts from toddlers. :roll:
So have I - almost.
Not quite the same cynicism or slightly barbed hostility........
Sorry Percy, but I stand by my cynicism & slightly barbed hostility.
In life, I just get fed up at people making the sort of life-changing errors simply because they couldn't be bothered to make adequate arrangements for the security of some of their most precious treasures.
Yes, I use the term they couldn't be bothered, because they were certainly intelligent enough to think through the situation had their heads been a bit clearer & out of the clouds, or maybe up their own....... or been more responsible in their actions.
A totally different example but along the same lines........ I used to work for a guy who bought some cash back from a villa sale in Spain - he rode around in an X5 for some months, with this cash under his front seat in a tesco carrier bag..... Whilst on another trip to Spain, he called me at work frantic, because he didn't think he'd locked his car doors in the airport car park...... The cash was duly recovered - although I was sorely tempted to tell him it had gone missing - I could have bought my house in Lybster AND done the refurbs AND had plenty of change! Had that been you or I, we would have made doubly sure that there was no way something like this could have happened - and that's why I get cross - especially when in their position, they should know better.
(BTW, this same man would throw a tantrum if one of the workshop guys sneaked in an hours O/T on the sly, costing him a whole £12!!)
.......
As for the personal comments, don't bother, I've had better attempts from toddlers.......
That's nothing Jaws - just pray you never meet my granddaughter! [lol]
Julie
x
im sorry, but as time goes by i cana help but winder, wot hes happnd til at little lascie. i think she is deid. i think she died on e nite she went missin. although i hev alot o sympathy for e family, e parents, i cana help but think if it wisna for them she wid be safe an weel aday. at lascie wis a british citizen an because o their negligance, at lascie mite niver return til britian - who is til blame for at???
anneoctober
15-Aug-07, 22:23
I HAVE TO AGREE, I'D LIKE TO THINK MADDY IS ALIVE AND WELL, BUT AS TIME GOES ON IT SEEMS MORE UNLIKELY. I HAVE N'T HEARD ANY RESULTS FROM THE BLOOD SPECK ON HER WALL, PROBABLY ANOTHER RED HERRING. THE MCCAN'S WILL HAVE A LOT TO LIVE WITH, INCLUDING, TELLING MADDY'S SIBLINGS WHY SHE IS N'T WITH THEM ANYMORE. THE DAY THEY DECIDE TO RETURN HOME WITHOUT MADDY, WILL BE THE START OF THE TWINS LIVES. THIS COUPLE WILL SURVIVE, I'M SURE THEY'VE GONE OVER THE " WHAT IFS " A MILLION TIMES. POSSIBLY THEY SHOULD CONCENTRATE ON THE FAMILY THEY HAVE GOT AND BE THANKFUL THEY STILL HAVE THEM. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A VERY DIFFERENT SCENARIO THAT THEY WERE FACED WITH ON RETURNING TO THE FLAT.
j4bberw0ck
16-Aug-07, 00:11
If that is the best you can do to find fault with my post
Oh, Jaws. It wasn't. That was the point. Never mind......... :lol:
i cana help but think if it wisna for them she wid be safe an weel aday. at lascie wis a british citizen an because o their negligance, at lascie mite niver return til britian - who is til blame for at???The person who abducted her is to blame!
If it wasn't for her parents she wouldn't exist. If they didn't take her on holiday to Portugal she wouldn't have been abducted.
When a woman is raped the rapist is to blame, not the victim because she was wearing scanty clothing or because she was flirting or drinking too much.
People, please let's not lose track of the most important points when jotting down our thoughts.
yes well tonights news reporting yet another story !!!
but it doesnt help them or the child wherever or whoever got her
Its just all so sad thats the era we live in now but please soon make it it easier for all concerned
and hopefully bring a good end to this thread
If it wasn't for her parents she wouldn't exist.
Actually, if it wasn't for the IVF treatment she wouldn't exist...
If they didn't take her on holiday to Portugal she wouldn't have been abducted.
No, if they hadn't left Madeleine and the twins alone in the apartment while they went out she wouldn't have been abducted...
I agree no child should be left alone EVER
it happens
but no the childs fault
Actually, if it wasn't for the IVF treatment she wouldn't exist...
No, if they hadn't left Madeleine and the twins alone in the apartment while they went out she wouldn't have been abducted...Good God man, are you really still missing the point after I've explained it in simple terms?
I think you and Jaws must share a pharmacist because your facetious pills have the same affect.
yes well tonights news reporting yet another story !!!
but it doesnt help them or the child wherever or whoever got her
Its just all so sad thats the era we live in now but please soon make it it easier for all concerned
and hopefully bring a good end to this thread
A link would be good Anne x -
I've just come on here & not seen tonight's news
The person who abducted her is to blame!
If it wasn't for her parents she wouldn't exist. If they didn't take her on holiday to Portugal she wouldn't have been abducted.
When a woman is raped the rapist is to blame, not the victim because she was wearing scanty clothing or because she was flirting or drinking too much.
People, please let's not lose track of the most important points when jotting down our thoughts.
I broadly agree with you but I do think that it is wrong for a woman to rely 100% on the Law without taking some personal responsibility for her own conduct. For example, I wouldn't goad a drunk in a bar without knowing full well that he might take a swing at me. Similiarly the McCanns can't absolve themselves of all blame in their tragedy though I am sure no one in their right mind would hold them account for their actions for all time, they have suffered enough. But things liek this are never black and white.
We all make mistakes and errors of judgements - Maddie's parents didnt forget about their children - they made an error in judgement.How many stories have we heard about mums leaving babies in prams outside shops over the years and then heading home without their precious wee bundle? Those of us that have made mistakes or made errors of judgement with our own children thank our lucky stars that we never had to live with the consequences that these poor people have to. Those mums who left their children in the pram outside the corner shop and ran back to find them sleeping soundly exactly where they left them will hug their children tightly and thank everythng they can that they arent in the terrible limbo that these parents are.
I agree with Crayola - the only person to blame is the person that took maddie in a cold calculating manner to satisfy whatever cruel or evil purpose they had in mind.
Boozeburglar
16-Aug-07, 09:44
Actually, if it wasn't for the IVF treatment she wouldn't exist...
Surely both contributed to her existence? Does it matter how she was conceived?
No, if they hadn't left Madeleine and the twins alone in the apartment while they went out she wouldn't have been abducted...
Could have happened in Britain, could have happened the same place the same night whilst her folks were sleeping. Impossible to say and why is it so important to make such an obvious point. If what happened did not happen it would not have happened the way it did, I think we all get that.
;)
Boozeburglar
16-Aug-07, 10:02
I broadly agree with you but I do think that it is wrong for a woman to rely 100% on the Law without taking some personal responsibility for her own conduct. For example, I wouldn't goad a drunk in a bar without knowing full well that he might take a swing at me. Similiarly the McCanns can't absolve themselves of all blame in their tragedy though I am sure no one in their right mind would hold them account for their actions for all time, they have suffered enough. But things liek this are never black and white.
Goading a drunk would perhaps result in violence, and one might expect that, but the drunk would still be in the wrong.
If you dress scantily and flirt, your expectation should be to attract reciprocal behaviour from those you are flirting with, not violence.
Rape is a violent act not a normal reaction to a woman flirting with you. There is no point at which, regardless of how drunk, scantly clad or flirtatious, a woman is inviting sexual violence.
Your analogy presupposes we are like coiled springs, ready to explode at any moment and the responsibility for our actions must be shared with our victims.
At best it is a poorly considered analogy, at worst it is a glimpse into the mindset of a misogynistic society we are hopefully emerging from.
Boozeburglar
16-Aug-07, 10:20
I would guess that the blood in the apartment isn't Madeleine's either. I certainly hope it isn't.
Hundreds of people will have stayed in there and the bood will most likely have come from one of them. Some say it's suspicious because there was an attempt to clean it up. Well, wouldn't anyone clean up if they got a bit of blood on the wall?
Nail hit on head.
Why oh why does everyone insist on regurgitating every last snippet of 'gossip' in the gutter press and then base arguments and inferences on such?
;)
I broadly agree with you but I do think that it is wrong for a woman to rely 100% on the Law without taking some personal responsibility for her own conduct. For example, I wouldn't goad a drunk in a bar without knowing full well that he might take a swing at me. Similiarly the McCanns can't absolve themselves of all blame in their tragedy though I am sure no one in their right mind would hold them account for their actions for all time, they have suffered enough. But things liek this are never black and white.
Goading a drunk would perhaps result in violence, and one might expect that, but the drunk would still be in the wrong.
If you dress scantily and flirt, your expectation should be to attract reciprocal behaviour from those you are flirting with, not violence.
Rape is a violent act not a normal reaction to a woman flirting with you. There is no point at which, regardless of how drunk, scantly clad or flirtatious, a woman is inviting sexual violence.
Your analogy presupposes we are like coiled springs, ready to explode at any moment and the responsibility for our actions must be shared with our victims.
At best it is a poorly considered analogy, at worst it is a glimpse into the mindset of a misogynistic society we are hopefully emerging from.
No matter how a woman (or man) dresses like or flirts there is no excuse for violence.
Perhaps a better example of responsible behavior would be if person1 went in a car with the other person2 or back to their flat. It is still not an invitation to violence but person1 has put themselves in an unsafe situation.
I have always allowed my children the freedom to explore and roam - it is one of the benefits of Caithness. You might be able to make an argument to be 100m away from where your 3 year old slept but the twins both look too young to have been left alone the way they were.
I wish to apologise to anyone who might have taken offence at my remark in post #122 above regarding IVF.
The other part of my post about the child not being abducted if they had not gone to Portugal is still relevant IMO.
it is a glimpse into the mindset of a misogynistic society we are hopefully emerging from.
Yes and I don't know of any rapists that weren't mysogynists.
percy toboggan
16-Aug-07, 18:52
To suggest we have ever been a mysoginistic society is to suggest an inadequate grasp of language, and , incidentally spelling.
Patriarchal, yes, definitely patriarchal.
Misogynistic? As a society. No way. Individually there have been misogynists of course. There always will be, stupidity knows no bounds.
Reminds me of the new 'homophobia' word. Used when not appropriate in almost every case.
Boozeburglar
16-Aug-07, 19:21
To suggest we have ever been a mysoginistic society is to suggest an inadequate grasp of language, and , incidentally spelling.
Patriarchal, yes, definitely patriarchal.
Misogynistic? As a society. No way. Individually there have been misogynists of course. There always will be, stupidity knows no bounds.
Reminds me of the new 'homophobia' word. Used when not appropriate in almost every case.
To suggest that any society that, until recently, did not recognise rape within marriage, readily turned a collective blind eye to domestic violence and has left women struggling for parity with men was anything but misogynistic suggests both a limited understanding of language and definition, as well as a limited knowledge of our social history.
If you want to be pedantic about spelling, you are welcome. I could not care less about spelling, though I did not make the error you appear to ascribe to me.
percy toboggan
16-Aug-07, 19:28
To suggest that any society that, until recently, did not recognise rape within marriage, readily turned a collective blind eye to domestic violence and has left women struggling for parity with men was anything but misogynistic suggests both a limited understanding of language and definition, as well as a limited knowledge of our social history.
If you want to be pedantic about spelling, you are welcome. I could not care less about spelling, though I did not make the error you appear to ascribe to me.
The spelling is not crucial of course, but I still refuse to accept that 'society' for as long as such as concept has existed has been 'misogynistic' as a whole.
You champion the usual causes with a zeal unmatched by accuracy or any real understanding of language and circumstance, and historic relevance.
First off - look up the true meaning of 'hatred'
ie. misogyny = hatred of women. A minority trait.
Women have been treated as second class citizens for a large percentage of human history. In some parts of the world they still are.
Women are still routinely paraded as sex objects on the shelf of every newsagent and that is not even the porn mag section!! Look at supposed "Lads" magazines such as Loaded et al and you will see women portrayed as having only one purpose in life. Even Cosmopolitian had a sealed X-rated section recently. What next? Topless Dollybirds in The Economist?
I often wonder about the IQ, or lack thereof, of the women who let themselves be portrayed in this way. Perhaps they just don't care and probably, in some cases they have little choice. It still seems sad to me that it goes on though.
I'm not a big fan of my fellow man to be honest and there is no doubt in my mind that an intelligent woman is far better company than the sex, football, football, sex, drink, football, obsessed macho-man.
If only Ronaldinho had breasts and supped Magners down the local, ah well Heaven awaits ;o)
To clarify, I don't recall at any stage making accusations that the McCanns were "responsible" for the alleged abduction, though I am sure some posters will be examining every post for even the slightest hint. .
I have, however, made comment about the fact that children of that age should not have been left alone by them in order to go out socialising. It would appear that they were by no means the only ones in the group who were behaving in that manner with their children
My concern about that behaviour is quite separate and unrelated to the end result. I still go by the old belief that parents have a duty not to knowingly, abandon, neglect or expose to danger their children. I leave it to you all to decide which of those three things, if any, can be said to have applied.
If Madeleine (I use her full name for the benefit specifically of j4bberw0ck) has been abducted, and that is by no means certain, then as far as I am concerned the actions, or lack of them, by the McCanns in no way detracts from the guilt of the “supposed” abductor. That person’s behaviour is completely separate from and unrelated to that of the McCanns and their leaving their children.
The only definite comment, which was immediately seized on as an “accusation”, was that their version of what occurred on the evening in question was to the effect that it had more holes than, or it may have been leaked like, a rusty sieve. In as much as their version has changed from the original and has also been, and still is being, added to I stand by that description.
Any other comments I have made has been concerned with the way the McCanns have acted after the event and the way anybody wishes to interpret those actions can only be a matter of opinion.
My interpretation of the actions and explanations of the McCanns and the reasons behind them is no more, and certainly no less, valid than the opinion of anyone else.
As far as I am concerned the only person who is deserving of my unreserved sympathy is the missing little girl herself who is the only one who could do absolutely nothing to prevent whatever happened on that night.
Jaws................ Well said.
I wish to apologise to anyone who might have taken offence at my remark in post #122 above regarding IVF.I wasn't offended. I thought you were being facetious.
The other part of my post about the child not being abducted if they had not gone to Portugal is still relevant IMO.It would be true if you removed the first word, otherwise it's incorrect. :roll:
Boozeburglar
17-Aug-07, 12:57
The spelling is not crucial of course, but I still refuse to accept that 'society' for as long as such as concept has existed has been 'misogynistic' as a whole.
Your prerogative.
The accounts I hear from family and acquaintances as to how society was in the earlier part of last century support the idea of a patriarchy that institutionally devalued and ill treated women. Very much a ‘misogynistic society’. The material I have read on social history and the feminist dialectic concur.
You champion the usual causes
That these ‘causes’ are popular does not diminish them.
with a zeal unmatched by accuracy
I am not sure just how much zeal I can muster to answer this ambiguous assertion. What is inaccurate in what I have said, where I have stated fact rather than put forward my opinion?
or any real understanding of language and circumstance, and historic relevance.
First off - look up the true meaning of 'hatred'
ie. misogyny = hatred of women. A minority trait.
It seems you need to break down language into component parts, giving an algebraic simplicity to work with. Language is not entirely mathematical.
What is commonly understood by the expression ‘misogynistic society’ is not a simple construct of the component words' literal meanings. (Google it!)
I understand well enough the circumstances for women in ancient Greece, most of mediaeval Europe and twentieth century Britain. Well enough to describe those societies, broadly speaking, as ‘misogynistic’. Were you referring to the context in which I have used words, that too is well considered and succinct, (in my opinion).
What I am left with is the feeling that you consider someone’s facility with the English language as a measure of their ability to hold informed views, and that attacking such defeats their argument.
You don’t really make any argument, you only attempt to undermine mine by questioning my facility with the English language.
How very old fashioned. Perhaps those whose English is not up to scratch should not be allowed the vote either?
Is "old fashioned" meant to be some kind of derogatory remark? Not that any of this seems to have much connection to Madeleine McCann being missing.
Boozeburglar
17-Aug-07, 23:46
Is "old fashioned" meant to be some kind of derogatory remark? Not that any of this seems to have much connection to Madeleine McCann being missing.
My use of language is not random. Had the intention been to make a derogatory remark, I would make one.
My suggestion is that making fun of one's use of the language in a demeaning way is a little out of step with contemporary cosmopolitan society.
A little Two Ronnies.
;)
.............A little Two Ronnies.
Ah! Now THIS I understand......
Four Candles...... you know, 'andles for forks!
Classic!
Julie
My suggestion is that making fun of one's use of the language in a demeaning way is a little out of step with contemporary cosmopolitan society.
A little Two Ronnies.
;)Now that I cannot disagree with. (Ouch! Admitting that was painful for me :D)
To suggest we have ever been a mysoginistic society is to suggest an inadequate grasp of language, and , incidentally spelling.
Patriarchal, yes, definitely patriarchal.
Misogynistic? As a society. No way. Individually there have been misogynists of course. There always will be, stupidity knows no bounds.
Reminds me of the new 'homophobia' word. Used when not appropriate in almost every case.
You must admit, Percy, that to even know of the word Misogynist and its context is admirable. Not everyone can get the spelling correct, especially in haste or emotion. ;)
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.