View Full Version : Britishness
baggie boy
29-Jul-07, 10:46
Gordon Brown wants the Union Jack flown on all bank holidays in support of being British.
But this would NOT apply in Scotland as Jack Straw and Alex Salmond say that "britishness has gone bust in Scotland."
I for one would welcome the flying of the Union Jack on national holidays as this is a sense of "being pround to be British".
I also think that the home nation on their national hoilday should fly their own flag next to the Union Jack.
Do you not think that this would bring back the sense of belonging.
People should be proud of their country and as i look at this at the moment, people say they are proud to be Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish but are we ashamed to say we are British?
What are .orgers views on this?
i dont see myself as british im scottish and would not want to see union jack flag flying in scotland or any other flag just because its a national holiday pointless exercise.And the only flag that should be used is the scottish flag only
porshiepoo
29-Jul-07, 11:15
Fantastic idea!
There are alot of ignorant people out there (bothe English & Scottish) who will cling to the ridiculous idea that being English or Scottish somehow makes you not British. Get over it I say! Flying the union Jack would be one step toward showing a united front - long overdue in my opinion.
Personally I don't see the need to fly the home flag alongside though, to me that would seem to take away from the idea of a united flag being flown.
Eddie - that has to be one of the most ignorant and stupid comments I have heard in a long, long time. You may well be born in Scotland but you are just as much British whether you like it or not.
It's comments like that from people such as yourself that keep the scotland v England fires raging. That stand has passed it's sell by date now, has absolutely no benefit to anyone and is the cause of alot of problems.
We are the UNITED KINGDOM at the end of the day, regardless of which part of this tiny island you happened to be born on.
NickInTheNorth
29-Jul-07, 11:19
I am deeply ashamed to be British. I believe all sense of common decency and humanity are being leeched out from the fertile ground that once existed. The British are now a bunch of mean spirited, greedy, selfish, racist yobs.
At least that is what the British media print and broadcast seem to want us to believe. I know that somewhere deep down it is not true, but until the silent majority stops buying into the idea tghat we should all just look out for number one and society can go hang then we are not a nation to be proud of.
Something I am even less proud of is being English, to which most of the above comments appy to far more than they do to the Welsh or the Scottish. And I am afraid that the further south east you travel the worse it gets (as a sweeping generalisation).
So they can take the Union Flag and ram it where the sun don't shine.
There are many many many examples from real life, fortunately, of acts by individuals that give the lie to the above, and of the people concerned then I am proud to call them my neighbour or countryman. But of the "British" as a whole, no I am deeply ashamed. It would be wonderful to put the Great back into Britain, but I don't see it happening in the near future.
orkneylass
29-Jul-07, 11:21
If only we had a clear sense of what being british means......in my opinion we are in a terrible mess because unlike countries like France and the USA, we have not managed multiculturalism and immigration within a bottom line of this is what we are about and this is what you respect and sign up to by choosing to live in this country - whether you are new british or old british. So therefore, what exactly does the flag stand for anyway?????
Fantastic idea!
There are alot of ignorant people out there (bothe English & Scottish) who will cling to the ridiculous idea that being English or Scottish somehow makes you not British. Get over it I say! Flying the union Jack would be one step toward showing a united front - long overdue in my opinion.
Personally I don't see the need to fly the home flag alongside though, to me that would seem to take away from the idea of a united flag being flown.
Eddie - that has to be one of the most ignorant and stupid comments I have heard in a long, long time. You may well be born in Scotland but you are just as much British whether you like it or not.
It's comments like that from people such as yourself that keep the scotland v England fires raging. That stand has passed it's sell by date now, has absolutely no benefit to anyone and is the cause of alot of problems.
We are the UNITED KINGDOM at the end of the day, regardless of which part of this tiny island you happened to be born on.
Im not british im scottish im not interested in keeping scotland v england fires raging i never said that but i would like to see scotland go fully independent and not goverened by westminster just the same as northern ireland and wales i would love to see them fully independent as well i cant wait for the day that we get to vote on it
And tell you something else as well if means being associated as scottish and not british is ignorant and stupid then im proud to be ignorant and stupid a lot better than been seen as british.
porshiepoo
29-Jul-07, 11:46
I am deeply ashamed to be British. I believe all sense of common decency and humanity are being leeched out from the
fertile ground that once existed. The British are now a bunch of mean spirited, greedy, selfish, racist yobs.
Mean spirited? Greedy? Tell that to the mass of immigrants risking life and limb to get in here.
Tell that to the troops stationed in warzones, I'm sure they'll be most grateful for your sense of patriotism that they're willing to defend.
At least that is what the British media print and broadcast seem to want us to believe. I know that somewhere deep down it is not true, but until the silent majority stops buying into the idea tghat we should all just look out for number one and society can go hang then we are not a nation to be proud of.
We SHOULD be looking after number one, the problem is that we're not! We don't care about about our own homeless, or flood victims etc, we're too busy sending troops and aid out to other countries that we have nothing left for our own. We send aid out to New Orleans for their flood victims but get our own to pay the price themselves.
There are many many many examples from real life, fortunately, of acts by individuals that give the lie to the above, and of the people concerned then I am proud to call them my neighbour or countryman. But of the "British" as a whole, no I am deeply ashamed. It would be wonderful to put the Great back into Britain, but I don't see it happening in the near future.
With attitudes like that then no it won't. It has to start somewhere and a united front is needed. But that united front has to be to our own countrymen, sorting out our own problems before those of other countries. Flying a flag is not going to acieve that by itself, we need our country - BRITAIN - to unite and have its say!
Then we can all be laughed at and told to piddle off cos the flag flying is just for show and we actually will continue to have no say in how this country is run, we'll just keep paying for the big wigs to do as they please!!!!!!
now i know that im american.. but in my humble opinion..
i agree that both flags should be flown.
in america we have the stars and stripes which is flown everywhere. and let me tell you.. ive never met an american that wasnt proud to be one. we may be ashamed of how the country is run but still proud to be a part of the Unites States.
also, each individual state has its own flag which is flown along side the american flag. in a lot of ways its run the same as here. each state has its own gov. and laws and legislation. but all come together under the power of the United States.
so yup i agree with the flying of two flags.two countries brought together under one nation.
ohh and just wnated to add for clarification.. this is the american pledge.. but it you take it in its context of what it means.. well it can translate.
http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html
Why only on bank holidays? :confused Maybe I've misunderstood this.
Sounds self -defeating if it's intended to be a unifying factor, since different parts of the UK have different bank holidays anyway. I must admit to feeling irritated and annoyed when news presenters refer to the Bank Holiday Weekend coming up when it just isn't happening here at all!
now i know that im american.. but in my humble opinion..
i agree that both flags should be flown.
in america we have the stars and stripes which is flown everywhere. and let me tell you.. ive never met an american that wasnt proud to be one. we may be ashamed of how the country is run but still proud to be a part of the Unites States.
also, each individual state has its own flag which is flown along side the american flag. in a lot of ways its run the same as here. each state has its own gov. and laws and legislation. but all come together under the power of the United States.
so yup i agree with the flying of two flags.two countries brought together under one nation.
Great minds brandy - I was just wondering about that! :) That makes perfect sense to me.
People should be proud of their country and as i look at this at the moment, people say they are proud to be Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish but are we ashamed to say we are British?
Well we haven't done an awful lot to be proud about lately.
Honesty, tolerance, fairness, compassion, these are things to be proud of. Deceit, aggression, greed and corruption should make people hang their heads in shame.
~~Tides~~
29-Jul-07, 13:02
Technically it is only called the Union Jack when flown at sea. Otherwise it is called the Union Flag... (This has added nothing to this debate I know)
Why only on bank holidays? :confused Maybe I've misunderstood this.
Sounds self -defeating if it's intended to be a unifying factor, since different parts of the UK have different bank holidays anyway. I must admit to feeling irritated and annoyed when news presenters refer to the Bank Holiday Weekend coming up when it just isn't happening here at all!
Although the Union Flag has been adopted as the official flag of Great Britain and Northern Ireland because of its roots as a Royal Flag "the flying of the Union Flag on public buildings is decided by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport at The Queen's command" http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page5017.asp
percy toboggan
29-Jul-07, 13:52
The Union flag should be updated. The Welsh Dragon should be incorporated - possibly super-imposed across the centre.
I like the English flag, and I also love the saltyre. Both complement the Union version and should be flown permanently on public buildings. They should be augmented with the Union flag whenever the ocassion demands it. These islands are called the 'British Isles' so it's a fact that anyone whose family has lived here for several generations IS British. I'm not proud of it, I used to think it was a fortunate accident although recently I'm not so sure.
Being 'proud' of where one is born is a bit silly really. You can love it , even take pride in it even but to 'be proud of it' when that pride is based on an accident of birth is barmy. Borders , flags and nationalism are what we are left with when our self-assuredness and stability is taken away. Two decades ago this conversation would not have arisen.Posibbly within Scotland it may have, but the English did not give such matters any thought whatsoever.
Those on the thread who knock Britain and are wholly negative need to get a life or ship out, and realise that in the panoply of nation states we don't do so badly.
The 'exit' door is clearly marked.
porshiepoo
29-Jul-07, 14:37
I wonder what the general opinion is of those that want an independent scotland as to why? Or is this another thread?
I don't claim to know the ins and outs of how it would work but do you think Scotland could be economically independent from the UK? Yes, it has North sea oil but would that be enough?
It would need its own military wouldn't it?
If independence happened soon would Scotland have to abide by the agreements within the UN etc that the UK has already committed to?
Would independence mean Scotland being completely seperate from the UN? The Commonwealth?
Wasn't it Scotlands King James that first initiated a United Kingdom anyway? Or do I have my history wrong?
The Pepsi Challenge
30-Jul-07, 04:01
Not British.
Jeemag_USA
30-Jul-07, 14:38
I also think that the home nation on their national hoilday should fly their own flag next to the Union Jack.
Do you not think that this would bring back the sense of belonging.
Can't bring something back that was never there in the first place. Great Britain and United Kingdom have been figments of most peoples imagination since their conception. I don't understand why some people feel its their right to tell others they should be united and should do this and that, we have freedom of political views and if we want to be Scottish and proud of it then thats our choice. I have never been interested in anything British in my life and never felt the need to fly a Union Jack, and I am not part of a minority in that respect, not in Scotland or in Wales or in Ireland. Its every persons choice to feel they way they want to about their nationality and for me the UJ is tainted and always has been. If you want to be british and proud then by all means go and do so but don't enforce it on others (this is not a reference to the poster of this thread, just my general opinion).
Can't bring something back that was never there in the first place. Great Britain and United Kingdom have been figments of most peoples imagination since their conception. I don't understand why some people feel its their right to tell others they should be united and should do this and that, we have freedom of political views and if we want to be Scottish and proud of it then thats our choice. I have never been interested in anything British in my life and never felt the need to fly a Union Jack, and I am not part of a minority in that respect, not in Scotland or in Wales or in Ireland. Its every persons choice to feel they way they want to about their nationality and for me the UJ is tainted and always has been. If you want to be british and proud then by all means go and do so but don't enforce it on others (this is not a reference to the poster of this thread, just my general opinion).
But that is the point Jeemag - its the Scottishness that is being forced upon them, not the Britishness. Nationalism is a cancer.
Not British.
Whether you like it or not, you are:) Its one of the benefits of being British is that you can make comments like you just did and not fear persecution;)
I wonder what the general opinion is of those that want an independent scotland as to why? Or is this another thread?
I don't claim to know the ins and outs of how it would work but do you think Scotland could be economically independent from the UK? Yes, it has North sea oil but would that be enough?
It would need its own military wouldn't it?
If independence happened soon would Scotland have to abide by the agreements within the UN etc that the UK has already committed to?
Would independence mean Scotland being completely seperate from the UN? The Commonwealth?
Wasn't it Scotlands King James that first initiated a United Kingdom anyway? Or do I have my history wrong?
It is a whole other thread! :Razz
Given the state of Scotland with the infamous "subsidies" after 300 years as a part of the UK.........do you think we would fare a lot worse if we had the ability to organise our own economy to improve our position, with or without oil?
You've got your history wrong.
James VI inherited the English throne under the ordinary laws of succession........and he may have dreamed of Union, but neither Parliament was having any of it. The Union of Parliaments took another 100 years to come about........and it was nothing to do with either country wantinga Union because they felt as if they were one people, but more to do with England being worried that the Scots were still in a position to declare a Catholic Stuart monarch, rather than the Protestant monarchy they wanted........so they schemed and bribed to accomplish it.
Whether you like it or not, you are Its one of the benefits of being British is that you can make comments like you just did and not fear persecution;)
And you assume that an independent Scotland would hold to more restrictions to freedom of speech? :confused
Britishness was forced on us at the Union.........but making something a fait accompli doesn't make it something to be desired.........or supported..........just something to be endured until it can be changed.
You have the right to change it - it is up for grabs at every election. BTW I did not comment nor intimate on freedom of speech in an Independent Scotland.
Boozeburglar
30-Jul-07, 15:51
But that is the point Jeemag - its the Scottishness that is being forced upon them, not the Britishness. Nationalism is a cancer.
Oh really?
So this, er, 'cancer' as you call it is somehow different when it comes to pride in being British?
Why is that?
I don't see why there is any difference between being proud to be British and being proud to be Scottish, so as far as I am concerned people can make their own choice about it.
Stuff the Union Joke where it belongs I say.
I don't think I said there was anything wrong about being proud to be Scottish - I am. I am also proud to be British. What I said is that NATIONALISM is a cancer........whether it be Scottish, English, Irish or whatever.
Jeemag_USA
30-Jul-07, 16:35
Whether you like it or not, you are:) Its one of the benefits of being British is that you can make comments like you just did and not fear persecution;)
So under an Independent Scotland we would suddenly become a communist country and would have no right to free speech??
arn't some of the bank holidays different in England and Scotland?
Whitewater
30-Jul-07, 16:37
I'm proud to be Scottish, I'm also proud to be British. I have no difficulty in identifying with either. In Australia where I spent a lot of time in my younger days, each state had its own government but there were also a federal government and laws, I can't recall any problems with it. Many other countries have the same system. I think Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and England should all have their own govenments (I know England is the only country that hasn't),but we should all be controlled by an overall government. If you don't the idea of great Britian perhaps we should call ourselves the United States of Britain.
I really doesn't bother me where I live or what the country is called, I am Scottish by birth and have always been very proud of it. We have a unique history and heritage and we Scots are always regarded well throughout the world.
Looking at our past history and the more recent Highland Clearances, I can understand why some people think we would be better of with independence, but the Scots were cleared of their land by greedy Highland and Lowland landowners.
Our last fling at Independence ended in a civil war that came to a tragic end at Culloden. Our opponents there were not the English but the Government troops. There were as many Scots fighting with the government forces as were fighting against them. On doing some family History recently I discovered that within my own family we fought on both sides. It's part of the history that was kept quiet, both sides were ashamed of themselves.
So under an Independent Scotland we would suddenly become a communist country and would have no right to free speech??
Never said that - see my previous comments.
The Pepsi Challenge
30-Jul-07, 16:53
Hi scotsboy, I see, having taken a read of Kevin Williamson's new blog, that you suffered a 0-1 defeat at the weekend. Don't worry, though, it's still too early in the season to be getting carried away.
http://www.kevinwilliamson.blogspot.com/
Whitewater
30-Jul-07, 17:00
Maybe we will get the saltire back to its original colour one of these days, not the dark blue of the union flag.
Brilliant idea! If you go to America, you see the American flag flying everywhere; if you go to Canada you see the Canadian flag flying everywhere; France; Norway... why? Because they are all proud of who they are. So, why don't we fly the Union Jack.. are we not proud? Should we just skulk and play at being apologetic about who we are?
No, the Union Jack is a composite of the flags of Scotland, England and Wales - remember, the English flag is just a red cross on a white background. What are the predominant colours of the Union Jack? White on blue background. To my mind that makes the Union Jack predominently.... Scottish! Wha hey!
Fly it with pride, guys (and gals).
Hi scotsboy, I see, having taken a read of Kevin Williamson's new blog, that you suffered a 0-1 defeat at the weekend. Don't worry, though, it's still too early in the season to be getting carried away.
http://www.kevinwilliamson.blogspot.com/
As fine a loon as Kevin is, he does occassioanlly (like us all) talk a bit of mince. A blog is by definition a personal opinion.
I personally have not suffered any defeat, you see that is the point I am trying to make about NATIONALISM its all about winning and losing, and point scoring and conflict - its about being anti, not about getting on. When you get a mind of yer own and stop using the opinions of others as yer own you may just understand;)
porshiepoo
30-Jul-07, 18:18
It just seems to me that the majority of people want scottish independence not because they believe it will be of benefit to scotland but because they simply want independence from England, and what's more, believe that this union was forced upon Scotland by aggressive England.
Great Britain didn't just occur overnight demanded for by irate, greedy Englishmen. Both England and Scotland negotiated and passed the acts of union, scotland believing it was in it's own best interests to help it recover from financial disaster.
I don't think I said there was anything wrong about being proud to be Scottish - I am. I am also proud to be British. What I said is that NATIONALISM is a cancer........whether it be Scottish, English, Irish or whatever.
It is only a cancer if you are proud to be British as well as Scottish............different strokes for different folks!
It just seems to me that the majority of people want scottish independence not because they believe it will be of benefit to scotland but because they simply want independence from England, and what's more, believe that this union was forced upon Scotland by aggressive England.
Great Britain didn't just occur overnight demanded for by irate, greedy Englishmen. Both England and Scotland negotiated and passed the acts of union, scotland believing it was in it's own best interests to help it recover from financial disaster.
The Union was voted through on the wishes of an unrepresentative English Government ...........who bribed an unrepresentative Scottish Government.
The negotiations on both sides had no democratic input.
The financial losses of the Darien Venture were partly as a result of the English Government refusing to allow its colonies to trade with the settlers in case they offended the Spanish........and the situation after the failure wasn't helped at all when the English Government in 1705 closed off England to all Scottish trade and declared the Scots aliens.
So removing access to English markets was the stick and the Equivalent was the carrot.
But even so, and regardless of the poor situation of the common people in Scotland........they rioted and sent petitions against it...........for all the notice that was taken of them.
Maybe it is time to redress that..and let the natives have a say at last?
It is only a cancer if you are proud to be British as well as Scottish............different strokes for different folks!
I am talking about NATIONALISM in general not specific to the UK, it thrives on highlighting difference. I have no problem with Patriotism, but dispise nationalism in all forms it appears.
Nationalism by definition relies upon common origin and ethnicity, and it has recently led to attrocities in the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda and fuelled by the ill-conceived invasion of Iraq also in that country.
Boozeburglar
30-Jul-07, 19:40
It just seems to me that the majority of people want scottish independence not because they believe it will be of benefit to scotland but because they simply want independence from England, and what's more, believe that this union was forced upon Scotland by aggressive England.
Great Britain didn't just occur overnight demanded for by irate, greedy Englishmen. Both England and Scotland negotiated and passed the acts of union, scotland believing it was in it's own best interests to help it recover from financial disaster.
Scots are not as ignorant about their history as you suggest, and we don't really need lessons from the English, whose education system is pretty poor in comparison.
If some people here want independence from England, it is their shout. Nothing you say is going to change that.
Scots as not as ignorant about their history as you suggest, and we don't really need lessons from the English, whose education system is pretty poor in comparison.
If some people here want independence from England, it is their shout. Nothing you say is going to change that.
A classic example of NATIONALISM. Thank you Boozeburgler!
Boozeburglar
30-Jul-07, 19:47
I am talking about NATIONALISM in general not specific to the UK, it thrives on highlighting difference. I have no problem with Patriotism, but dispise nationalism in all forms it appears.
Nationalism by definition relies upon common origin and ethnicity, and it has recently led to attrocities in the former Yugoslavia, Rwanda and fuelled by the ill-conceived invasion of Iraq also in that country.
Scotsboy, I agree with you on the BAD type of Nationalism, but remember nationalism is also the term used for for a movement towards political independence for a country.
Here in Scotland, the SNP are very much a modern dynamic Socialist party, and are extremely welcoming to all who wish to participate in a free, liberal, democratic Scotland founded on the belief that everyone is equal and all are welcome, including any English that wish to live here, as well as any of us who want to call themselves British.
You can rest assured Salmond would have no truck with the Citizenship Test baloney the Westminster war mongrels are going to flay the immigrant population with.
As much as I don't like the man - I have to agree that he (Salmond) is doing a pretty good job as First Minister so far. Much better than the object that went before him!
Boozeburglar
30-Jul-07, 20:08
I am married to an English woman, and spent most of my adult life living there.
I will have no-one accusing me of being separatist in any way, shape or form. I love the English people and the country.
Derision of the Scots, questioning our ability to make rational judgments on our own future, whilst maligning our knowledge of our past, all come from English voices right now in the media and on message boards.
Were it the French I would direct my response there.
There are a great may good things about our relationship with the English, none of which I see us losing by more independence. I see it as a natural process that is long overdue, and as far as I am concerned it will enhance the relationship between the two countries.
whitechina
30-Jul-07, 20:19
Maybe we will get the saltire back to its original colour one of these days, not the dark blue of the union flag.
So what exactly is the right shade of blue for the saltire? Does anyone remember a few years back,Mike Russell,a Nationalist msp,wanted a scottish flag maker closed down because he claimed they were putting the wrong shade of blue in their flags?:roll:
boozeburglar,will you please stick to one opionion or another! One minute I am totally agin' you, the next, I am seeing your point! You can't have it both ways, or is that just me.;)
porshiepoo
30-Jul-07, 23:13
The Union was voted through on the wishes of an unrepresentative English Government ...........who bribed an unrepresentative Scottish Government.
The negotiations on both sides had no democratic input.
The financial losses of the Darien Venture were partly as a result of the English Government refusing to allow its colonies to trade with the settlers in case they offended the Spanish........and the situation after the failure wasn't helped at all when the English Government in 1705 closed off England to all Scottish trade and declared the Scots aliens.
So removing access to English markets was the stick and the Equivalent was the carrot.
But even so, and regardless of the poor situation of the common people in Scotland........they rioted and sent petitions against it...........for all the notice that was taken of them.
Maybe it is time to redress that..and let the natives have a say at last?
Never ceases to amaze me how it's always blamed on England.
England did this, England did that, If they hadn't done this or hadn't done that. England, England England.
No matter what the reasoning, the union of England and Scotland has benefitted both sides.
Poor Scotland, so feeble and taken for a ride at the time!!!! England bulldozed through and raped the country of everything Scottish!!!!
It was the scottish fatcats who sought a way out financial disaster that agreed to the union, it was those same Scottish fatcats that agreed to it regardless of what the people wanted. So why is it always blamed on England? Why is England always made the scapegoat for Scotlands shortcomings and why is England always blamed for the way Scotland has treated its own?
There'll be noone left to blame but Scotland itself once it becomes independent you know!
Boozeburglar
30-Jul-07, 23:35
There'll be noone left to blame but Scotland itself once it becomes independent you know!
Exactly.
That is how most independent democracies operate.
We can then have an inclusive society, welcoming the people who seek shelter and sanctuary here, whilst the English carry on down the road of ID Cards and Citizenship Tests, blaming all THEIR problems on the 'immigrants' as always....
Jeemag_USA
30-Jul-07, 23:40
So what exactly is the right shade of blue for the saltire? Does anyone remember a few years back,Mike Russell,a Nationalist msp,wanted a scottish flag maker closed down because he claimed they were putting the wrong shade of blue in their flags?:roll:
I always thought it was supposed to be a pale blue, almost like Cobalt. like the one below, rahter than a darker blue like the Union Flag.
http://www.rugbyheaven.smh.com.au/rwc2003/graphics/flags/scotland_flag.jpg
Jeemag, that's it! That is the flag that hung in the right hand corner of my church building. And a Canadian red and white maple leaf in the left hand corner.
I have always considered myself Scottish, British and Canadian. Wow the best of all worlds!
Boozeburglar
31-Jul-07, 00:24
And I must say that that is something I totally agree with.
I am not for Scottish independence to deprive anyone the chance to be proud of being British, I just see it as a step towards more democracy for more people.
I still want anyone who thinks of themselves as British to be as welcome as before, especially those in the 'colonies' past and present!
Never ceases to amaze me how it's always blamed on England.
England did this, England did that, If they hadn't done this or hadn't done that. England, England England.
Who's blaming England? It was a case of six of one and half a dozen of another within the governments. Things then were no different to what they are now..........but in them days, nobody got the government they voted for..........because they didn't get to vote until less than a hundred years ago. If they did, things might never have panned out as they did.
But facts are cheils that winna ding.........regardless of whether you want to interpret those facts as getting at any one side.
No matter what the reasoning, the union of England and Scotland has benefitted both sides.
Depends on your interpretation of benefitting.........and we'll never really know if it has or not, will we.because we have no ways to compare what Scotland might have become against what Scotland is now, do we?
Poor Scotland, so feeble and taken for a ride at the time!!!! England bulldozed through and raped the country of everything Scottish!!!!
Spot on! :lol:
It was the scottish fatcats who sought a way out financial disaster that agreed to the union, it was those same Scottish fatcats that agreed to it regardless of what the people wanted. So why is it always blamed on England? Why is England always made the scapegoat for Scotlands shortcomings and why is England always blamed for the way Scotland has treated its own?
That's what I said...........but England was instrumental in making the economic situation worse to force the Union........no getting out of that. If they hadn't...would there have been a Union?
There'll be noone left to blame but Scotland itself once it becomes independent you know!
A situation devoutly to be wished!
I always thought it was supposed to be a pale blue, almost like Cobalt. like the one below, rahter than a darker blue like the Union Flag.
http://www.rugbyheaven.smh.com.au/rwc2003/graphics/flags/scotland_flag.jpg
The Scottish Parliament has said the official colour of the flag is Pantone 300.........azure or sky blue......which is pretty much as above.
Will look sweet on the fitba team, won,t it? :D
If Scotland and England are so "united" in the united kingdom, why on numerous occasions when people i know have been to England on holiday or to see friends, when they go to a shop with a Scotish bank note and they are told "we do not accept scotish notes you will have to change it in the bank"?
So if a tourist from say france spain has a scotish bank note and they are in england and are told we dont accept scotish notes what are they supposed to think?
Jeemag_USA
31-Jul-07, 14:02
If Scotland and England are so "united" in the united kingdom, why on numerous occasions when people i know have been to England on holiday or to see friends, when they go to a shop with a Scotish bank note and they are told "we do not accept scotish notes you will have to change it in the bank"?
So if a tourist from say france spain has a scotish bank note and they are in england and are told we dont accept scotish notes what are they supposed to think?
Very good point, that has happened to me on more occassions than I care to think about, I have had every kind of note you can think of 1,5,10,20,50 turned down in shops in England.
Boozeburglar
31-Jul-07, 14:09
If I was on Grumpy Old Men, I would bring that up every week!
The thing to do is fill your basket up nice and full, then when they refuse your legal tender tell them they can put it back on the shelves.
I was refused a McDonald's!
Don't you know this is a Scottish company?
They didn't.
Very good point, that has happened to me on more occassions than I care to think about, I have had every kind of note you can think of 1,5,10,20,50 turned down in shops in England.
Had to smile at this one, Jeemag. Recently, in some change, I had a Scottish £5.00 note (by the way, what will the separatists call their monetary units when independance comes?) and the shop keeper apologised and offered to change it. My answer was "no way!"
If I was on Grumpy Old Men, I would bring that up every week!
The thing to do is fill your basket up nice and full, then when they refuse your legal tender tell them they can put it back on the shelves.
I was refused a McDonald's!
Don't you know this is a Scottish company?
They didn't.
Oh gross, Boozeburglar. You eat at McDonalds? Eeewwww! ;)
Boozeburglar
31-Jul-07, 14:48
No I don't eat at McMakeTheWorldADesert
My wife needed the loo and she always for some reason demands I buy something so I was getting her some McTea
percy toboggan
31-Jul-07, 17:37
Hate to mention the Daily Mail <mock spit> but Richard Littlejohn <cue disgust from some> had a little snippet in his column today.
Apparently when the hero of the Glasgow Airport 'terror' incident was introduced to the crowd at Ibrox last weekend the Rangers fans burst into a rousing (extraordinary?) rendition of 'Rule Brittannia'
Good on 'em.
Good on 'im'
Of course, if this is all lies the I'll go an skulk in a corner. I wonder what they'd have sung at Parkheed? Would it have been a diffferent choice? I'm just a virgin when it comes to the auld ferram.
Right - Mrs.T's birthday and we're off t'th eaterie cum boozer o'ert road like.
si'thee.
I think you missed the wee bit about Nicola Sturgon being present at the game as well;) Wonder if she joined in :)
By the way Percy, The Rangers FC are the quintessential British club, according to journalist/reporter Jeff Randall:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Randall_(reporter)
percy toboggan
31-Jul-07, 23:22
By the way Percy, The Rangers FC are the quintessential British club, according to journalist/reporter Jeff Randall:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Randall_(reporter)
bb-bbb-bbbut surely that's Manchester City ?:(
failing, seen better days. Too many foreigners,
sold their soul to someone dodgy?:D
I still follow 'em ( in the press) but no longer love 'em.
'Loving' football clubs is for kids.
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