View Full Version : innate sense of fair play?
percy toboggan
26-Jul-07, 19:34
Are we British born with it?
I refer to the three instances I've seen lately of the acute water problems in Gloucestershire. I expect there have been other cases of cheating and greed but the only people I've seen taking more than they were fairly entitled to have clearly been foreigners.
That said, all the vandalising of bowsers that's taking place is probably the work of disaffected white scroats. Maybe the lower social orders, whatever their economic status have retained the fair play ethic but developed a wanton mentality which has them biting the hand that is trying to help them.
Whatever the explanation the former should be ostracised and the latter , if caught publicly humiliated.
Are we British born with it?
No more than any other race or culture is born with it, and then, only if a number of other factors have been assimilated from outside sources which I believe are the governing factors in determining an individuals character.
I imagine, perhaps imagine is not the right word, that everyone is born with the same innate possibilities waiting to bloom. How that person develops is less to do with where they are born and more to do with the culture they were born into.
In my opinion, fair play is an innate human trait, not something exclusively British.
Well, I for one have friends and family living in Gloucestershire, and a dreadful time they're having.
I would much rather see some positive posting about how folk there are rallying round and helping each other out, as I know is the case.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "clearly been foreigners" either. :confused
percy,
I am in total agreement with both gleeber and Angela
I am so glad that they responded first as I was uncertain as to whether you were joking with such out and out outrageous bigotry....Was there any category of ordinary working folk you didn't manage to offend?:(
Karia
the only people I've seen taking more than they were fairly entitled to have clearly been foreigners.
How do you know that?
Its not just foreigners, In the news just the other day, south of scotland is having bottled water handed out due to mains water being contaminated and a few locals were seen loading up jeeps and such.
It was the media doing what they do best, only showing what they wanted to show on televison and that being some of the ethnics in the area loading up with water. i am sure there were locals at it to, but that would not be as such a big talking point though.
percy toboggan
26-Jul-07, 21:24
Well, I for one have friends and family living in Gloucestershire, and a dreadful time they're having.
I would much rather see some positive posting about how folk there are rallying round and helping each other out, as I know is the case.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "clearly been foreigners" either. :confused
They were of Asian appearance.
I agree with Gleeber about' the culture one is born into' perhaps I made a mistake in assuming readers would not think I meant people from the British culture. do you (Gleeber) have any knowledge of 'cultures' where fair play and a natural reluctance to push ones way to the front applies? I've only come across one and it's vanishing before my very eyes.
As for positive postings Angela , if you have as you suggest heard of some good deeds then kindly clue us all in. I've been following the news closely on this and when deeds of goodwill and kindness make the news then we are all sunk - flood or no flood. They should be the order of the day. I'll be pleased to read any second hand accounts you might have.
Karia: if you think my post was 'outrageous bigotry' then you cannot, in my humble opinion have met, spoken to, much less read the words of very many bigots. I've been called a 'bigot' on ocassion - it is often shorthand for a lack of will, or lack of appetite to debate. The word is bandied about by many whose knee jerk reaction to unpleasant truths is to look askance before attempting to deny the rights of others to express an honest opinion.
By mentioning 'lower social orders' perhaps I should have referred to them a s the 'lowest' and made it clearer that this category is the anti-social element we appear to have fostered in our midsts in ever greater numbers. Should I mind if I offend them?
Percy, people of "Asian appearance" have been settled in the city of Gloucester for many, many years now. They are not "foreigners", though no doubt you like to think of them that way.
Your suggestion that I should "kindly clue you all in" is just patronising and sneering.
Are you implying that the first hand accounts I have from my friends and relations are not to be trusted? Or maybe I'm just making them up? Obviously not as worthy of consideration as the footage you refer to.
Perhaps I also have a magic television quite different from yours that has shown people doing good turns for their neighbours and helping each other out?
As far as I can see they're not being presented as anything heroic, but just folk getting on with some sort of daily life in very difficult circumstances.
They were of Asian appearance.
That does not make them foreign or not part of the British culture.
By mentioning 'lower social orders' perhaps I should have referred to them a s the 'lowest' and made it clearer that this category is the anti-social element we appear to have fostered in our midsts in ever greater numbers. Should I mind if I offend them
Glad you cleared that one up although I am not sure if the anti-social element have the sense to be offended.
Kindly deeds?
Two guys died today in Tewksbury trying to help!
so I am clueing you in!
Karia
They were busy saving the cellar of the club-house at the local Rugby Club. :eek:
Boozeburglar
27-Jul-07, 01:06
Percy at it again.
Bigot, plain and simple.
The colour of a person's skin is no indication of their nationality. What the heck are you on about?
Just the same old.
Sad man.
Percy at it again.
Bigot, plain and simple.
The colour of a person's skin is no indication of their nationality. What the heck are you on about?
Just the same old.
Sad man.
I appreciate your opinion and I agree with what I think you are about. But, my opinon slightly differs. I hear a lot of calls from black communities/pressure groups/ musical influences in popular media, etc etc(to the effect) that being black/asian is something to be proud of, and it is not censored by authorities. Unfortunately, the message that says 'I am proud to be white' is now something to be ashamed of.
There is no hope for true racial equality within UK society, until we can all stand up to say with pride and without prejudice about who we are are, regardless what colour we are or from what ethnic background we belong, sad really?
Jeemag_USA
27-Jul-07, 02:52
I appreciate your opinion and I agree with what I think you are about. But, my opinon slightly differs. I hear a lot of calls from black communities/pressure groups/ musical influences in popular media, etc etc(to the effect) that being black/asian is something to be proud of, and it is not censored by authorities. Unfortunately, the message that says 'I am proud to be white' is now something to be ashamed of.
There is no hope for true racial equality within UK society, until we can all stand up to say with pride and without prejudice about who we are are, regardless what colour we are or from what ethnic background we belong, sad really?
Ok I am not going to go into great detail about this, but Rheghead has a point. The same thing is happening in the states, where there is a festival or celebration in every town and city for every minority available, but if anyone was to have a festival for whites only there would be an outcry. People need to start seeing each other as people and only that, we all have two legs, two arms a torso and a head, until people rid themselves of petty misconceptions about each other there is no way forward. I am the most staunch anti-racist person you might ever meet, but I know from experience racism exists in every colour, creed and culture, it needs to cease to exist everywhere.
In the words of the great Haillie Selassie, immortalised in song by Bob Marley..
"Until the colour of a mans skin is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes there will be war"
anneoctober
27-Jul-07, 03:45
Ok I am not going to go into great detail about this, but Rheghead has a point. The same thing is happening in the states, where there is a festival or celebration in every town and city for every minority available, but if anyone was to have a festival for whites only there would be an outcry. People need to start seeing each other as people and only that, we all have two legs, two arms a torso and a head, until people rid themselves of petty misconceptions about each other there is no way forward. I am the most staunch anti-racist person you might ever meet, but I know from experience racism exists in every colour, creed and culture, it needs to cease to exist everywhere.
In the words of the great Haillie Selassie, immortalised in song by Bob Marley..
"Until the colour of a mans skin is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes there will be war"
Well said Jeemag, could n't agree more. I'm afraid Percy may have mutated and lost his leggies.......:confused
I hear a lot of calls from black communities/pressure groups/ musical influences in popular media, etc etc(to the effect) that being black/asian is something to be proud of, and it is not censored by authorities. Unfortunately, the message that says 'I am proud to be white' is now something to be ashamed of.
Although Rheghead may well have a point, in my opinion he misses the point.
Black people have known about their blackness for a long time and have been, and continue to be, marked differently for it. Perhaps that is what they celebrate?
In my opinion, as a white man who never considered his whiteness, and more importantly, never needed to, being white was the norm. Everything else was abnormal. It wasn't a conscious awareness, but something that just...was.
This is where all the institutional racism comes from. That's where views like percys grow and bloom. Thats how tabloids can whip up a fervor in a few simple worded headlines.
I think it's also how white people cant begin to understand what it's like to be black.
well i for one had the cockles of my heart warmed watching the local news last night. a band of local men were hauling water supplies to the local old folks who'd missed out on water supplies as they couldn't get to the bowsers quickly enough before they were emptied each time.
the fact that all these young men were all from the gloucester muslim community had nothing to do with it......
there's good and bad in all kinds of folk, be they black white or sky-blue-pink.
i tend to just focus on the good in people otherwise i'd just get depressed with life.
as for there not being a festival to celebrate white culture - since when were whites a minority in britain? they certainly aren't in these parts. (i know - some daily mail readers will now pop up and say white people will soon be a minority in britain but i'm not even entering into that stupid argument.)
I hear a lot of calls from black communities/pressure groups/ musical influences in popular media, etc etc(to the effect) that being black/asian is something to be proud of, and it is not censored by authorities. Unfortunately, the message that says 'I am proud to be white' is now something to be ashamed of.
There is no hope for true racial equality within UK society, until we can all stand up to say with pride and without prejudice about who we are are, regardless what colour we are or from what ethnic background we belong, sad really?
Actually Rheghead i think you are missing the point too - there are loads of activities about being scottish, welsh, What about morris dancing festivals? or what about particular events aimed at women, What about polish or ukranian events - as a wee girl i went to a Ukranian Easter event and had a great time? What about the Munro clan gathering this weekend at Foulis castle where our battle re enactment group is appearing? What about the Massive Reenactments they do in England - Tewkesbury turns into a medieval town for a whole week to celebrate a variety of different battles and time periods.
ITs is about celebrating history culture and is part of who you are, it is about celebrating your connection with each other and celebrating your differences too - Being black is part of who people are - why should they not celebrate it? Like i celebrate being a woman and others celebrate being scottish or ukranian.
In some part you are right we should say with pride who we are and what our ethnic and cultural background is. As long as people still describe Asian people and black people as "foreigners" then we are going to continue to have problems
Its maybe worth making the point that several of the "foreigners" Percey refers to in his post as having seen on the news taking more than their fair share of water said quite clearly that they were collecting for two or three families. Asian people tend to live close to their extended families and are more likely to be doing so - What you see on the news percy isnt always the way it looks - Ask the queen - that bastion of white society - even she was misinterpreted!!!
Interestingly you didnt mention the white man who was shown the night before loading his boot with bottled water and didnt actually stop and answer the reporters questions - just jumped in his car and drove away
Actually Rheghead i think you are missing the point too - there are loads of activities about being scottish, welsh, What about morris dancing festivals? or what about particular events aimed at women, What about polish or ukranian events - as a wee girl i went to a Ukranian Easter event and had a great time? What about the Munro clan gathering this weekend at Foulis castle where our battle re enactment group is appearing? What about the Massive Reenactments they do in England - Tewkesbury turns into a medieval town for a whole week to celebrate a variety of different battles and time periods.
ITs is about celebrating history culture and is part of who you are, it is about celebrating your connection with each other and celebrating your differences too - Being black is part of who people are - why should they not celebrate it? Like i celebrate being a woman and others celebrate being scottish or ukranian.
In some part you are right we should say with pride who we are and what our ethnic and cultural background is. As long as people still describe Asian people and black people as "foreigners" then we are going to continue to have problems
I have to agree with you squidge. There is nothing wrong with celebrating our cultures, our differences and out similarities. It is what makes all of us unique.
We also need to remember that as our cultural roots define us we are part of other things too: whether it is being a Wicker, a Caithnessian, Scottish or English these are also important definitions of who we are. In addition if you are living in the United Kingdom you are part of that too but most importantly we are all part of the human race.
I agree with you, squidge and tristan. We can all usually find similarities and common ground, without denying our differences...if we want to. And what a dull world it would be if we were all the same.
What nationality or ethnic group can reasonably claim to be intrinsically morally superior? And yes, believe it or not, percy! people can be British without having white faces.
But then, the other option is to choose stereotypes to reinforce and justify our prejudices, and take from the media only what we want to see...so much easier and more comfortable than challenging ourselves. [evil]
Btw, I was astonished to find my gg grandparents in the 1841 Caithness census described as "foreigners". Yes, they were born in Sutherland! :eek:
I am not turning all sappy but this popped into my inbox today and it seemed appropriate to add it to this thread.
A man was exploring caves by the seashore. In one of the caves he found
a canvas bag with a bunch of hardened clay balls. It was like someone had
rolled clay balls and left them out in the sun to bake.
They didn't look like much, but they intrigued the man, so he took the bag
out of the cave with him. As he strolled along the beach, he would throw
the clay balls one at a time out into the ocean as far as he could.
He thought little about it, until he dropped one of the clay balls and it
cracked open on a rock. Inside was a beautiful, precious stone!
Excited, the man started breaking open the remaining clay balls. Each
contained a similar treasure. He found thousands of dollars worth of jewels
in the 20 or so clay balls he had left. Then it struck him.
He had been on the beach a long time. He had thrown maybe 50 or 60 of the
clay balls with their hidden treasure into the ocean waves. Instead of
thousands of dollars in treasure, he could have taken home tens of
thousands, but he had just thrown it away!
It's like that with people. We look at someone, maybe even ourselves, and
we see the external clay vessel. It doesn't look like much from the
outside. It isn't always beautiful or sparkling, so we discount it.
We see that person as less important than someone more beautiful or stylish
or well known or wealthy But we have not taken the time to find the treasure
hidden inside that person.
There is a treasure in each and every one of us. If we take the time to get
to know that person, and if we ask God to show us that person the way He
sees them, then the clay begins to peel away and the brilliant gem begins to
shine forth.
May we not come to the end of our lives and find out that we have thrown
away a fortune in friendships because the gems were hidden in bits of clay.
May we see the people in our world as God sees them.
I am so blessed by the gems of friendship I have with each of you. Thank
you for looking beyond my clay vessel.
anneoctober
27-Jul-07, 13:49
I am not turning all sappy but this popped into my inbox today and it seemed appropriate to add it to this thread.
A man was exploring caves by the seashore. In one of the caves he found
a canvas bag with a bunch of hardened clay balls. It was like someone had
rolled clay balls and left them out in the sun to bake.
They didn't look like much, but they intrigued the man, so he took the bag
out of the cave with him. As he strolled along the beach, he would throw
the clay balls one at a time out into the ocean as far as he could.
He thought little about it, until he dropped one of the clay balls and it
cracked open on a rock. Inside was a beautiful, precious stone!
Excited, the man started breaking open the remaining clay balls. Each
contained a similar treasure. He found thousands of dollars worth of jewels
in the 20 or so clay balls he had left. Then it struck him.
He had been on the beach a long time. He had thrown maybe 50 or 60 of the
clay balls with their hidden treasure into the ocean waves. Instead of
thousands of dollars in treasure, he could have taken home tens of
thousands, but he had just thrown it away!
It's like that with people. We look at someone, maybe even ourselves, and
we see the external clay vessel. It doesn't look like much from the
outside. It isn't always beautiful or sparkling, so we discount it.
We see that person as less important than someone more beautiful or stylish
or well known or wealthy But we have not taken the time to find the treasure
hidden inside that person.
There is a treasure in each and every one of us. If we take the time to get
to know that person, and if we ask God to show us that person the way He
sees them, then the clay begins to peel away and the brilliant gem begins to
shine forth.
May we not come to the end of our lives and find out that we have thrown
away a fortune in friendships because the gems were hidden in bits of clay.
May we see the people in our world as God sees them.
I am so blessed by the gems of friendship I have with each of you. Thank
you for looking beyond my clay vessel.
Thank you Tristan for sharing this item with us all . If we could take yesterday back, I know I would appreciate my family & friends and their "uniqueness " more before it was too late.
I think it's also how white people cant begin to understand what it's like to be black.
I don't think there is a need for other racial groups to understand another racial group because I think it is important that that should be unecessary in as multi-racial society (imo I think that is a poor term). I believe we should be striving for a society that is equal and mono-racial where a multiraces do not exist. That is true integration and only when we are thinking in those terms can it ever exist, up until then there will be racial tensions.
One thing is for certain, making white people to feel 'black' doesn't sound to me like a good strategy for racial equality....
One thing is for certain, making white people to feel 'black' doesn't sound to me like a good strategy for racial equality....
Your still missing the point. It's not about feeling black or feeling white. It's about being aware that blackness has a completely different set of pressures and culturally induced prejudices compared to being white and white people by virtue of their whiteness can never know what that means.
Non of this stuff is innate though. It's all formed through our environments, not biologically like Percy may appear to think.
Your still missing the point. It's not about feeling black or feeling white. It's about being aware that blackness has a completely different set of pressures and culturally induced prejudices compared to being white and white people by virtue of their whiteness can never know what that means.
I see the point but I just think it is irrelevent.
percy toboggan
27-Jul-07, 20:39
"Until the colour of a mans skin is of no more significance than the colour of his eyes there will be war"
I am trying to think of any major war, in modern times which has been caused purely and primarily by differing skin colour, or eye colour. No, it's no good. I know I've had a couple tonight but I give up.
What book of quotes did you get this one from then? Highly Salassie - did he run marathons? Perhaps you could remind us why he's labelled 'the great' Just what did he do to earn that handle then? I vaguely remember him, from old newsreel footage lording it in a fine uniform while most of his people grubbed around in the dirt trying to grow maize. I confess I'm ignorant about Salassie. He's a subject I've overlooked - don't you just hate it when that happens?Mind you given the strength of his quotes I'm glad I didnae bother. Africans have been fighting Africans since Adam worra lad and they're all black!! Well, most of 'em.
As for Bob Marley - do me a favour. Vastly over rated. Desmond Dekker was better, and he only made a couple of good discs.
percy toboggan
27-Jul-07, 20:46
What nationality or ethnic group can reasonably claim to be intrinsically morally superior? And yes, believe it or not, percy! people can be British without having white faces.
:eek:
Probably true, given the passage of a couple of hundred years of contribution and peaceful co-existence. The jury is out on most of this 'cum lately' lot, especially second and third generation Muslims. Or gang gravitating black youths with an eye for firearms and bling.
Non-whites whose descendants have lived here for a couple of hundred years are as British as I am. They would probably not be the ones stuffing many gallons of water into the boot of their car and floggin' it in the family shop.
I don't sneer at people either, as you sugggested. No need for that when the magnificent panoply of the English language is at one's disposal.
NickInTheNorth
27-Jul-07, 20:49
Africans have been fighting Africans since Adam worra lad and they're all black!! Well, most of 'em.
That has got to be one of the most ill informed statements I have ever heard!
I see the point but I just think it is irrelevent.
How can understanding another person be irrelevant? because thats what its about - its not about understandig another race or another creed or another colour its about understanding PEOPLE - each individual we have a relationship with on any level personal, work, professional - trying to understand them and helping them to understand us makes life sweeter and easier and ultimately our relationships are deeper and more fulfilling and we are better people for it
Percy, Who do you rate positively?
Karia
percy toboggan
27-Jul-07, 20:56
Your still missing the point. It's not about feeling black or feeling white. It's about being aware that blackness has a completely different set of pressures and culturally induced prejudices compared to being white and white people by virtue of their whiteness can never know what that means.
Non of this stuff is innate though. It's all formed through our environments, not biologically like Percy may appear to think.
The only 'culturally induced prejudices' exist amongst other cultures. This is why the melting pot philosophy behind multi-culturalism is flawed.
Do you think white people have a duty to understand to know what being black 'means'?
I merely asked a question inspired by experience of all manner of 'other cultures' making more noise than anybody else, feeling more aggrieved than anybody else, grabbing more water than anyone else and making the most of so many chips on their multi-ethnic shoulders. Our own culture is multi-layered and seems to gravitate, in terms of numbers towards booze, football and trash t.v. I suppose in lamenting this fact I also recognise failings in other cultures. All of which are adding up to a failing society and a nation ill at ease with itself.
Percy, Who do you rate positively?
Karia
Serious question!
Karia
percy toboggan
27-Jul-07, 21:04
Percy, Who do you rate positively?
Karia
Who do I rate? postively??
People who are hard working, law abiding and bring up their children to respect others. People who vote , who have opinions and are not afraid to express them. People who do not allow organised religion to colour their thinking and who do not mistreat animals gratuitously.People who read.People who tend not to impinge upon the lives of others uninvited.
Polyglots and pipers. Postmen and pipe-fitters. Wealth providers, entrepreneurs and good employers. Decent teachers. Committed nursing staff. Carers. Elderly. Veterans. Polite kids.
Thanks for the interest - top of my head this lot but you did ask.
Oh! Anyone who listens to radio 4 a lot.
percy toboggan
27-Jul-07, 21:07
That has got to be one of the most ill informed statements I have ever heard!
What?all of it, or the fighting reference....or the fact that most of 'em are the same colour?
Who do I rate? postively??
People who are hard working, law abiding and bring up their children to respect others. People who vote , who have opinions and are not afraid to express them. People who do not allow organised religion to colour their thinking and who do not mistreat animals gratuitously.People who read.People who tend not to impinge upon the lives of others uninvited.
Polyglots and pipers. Postmen and pipe-fitters. Wealth providers, entrepreneurs and good employers. Decent teachers. Committed nursing staff. Carers. Elderly. Veterans. Polite kids.
Thanks for the interest - top of my head this lot but you did ask.
Oh! Anyone who listens to radio 4 a lot.
Thank you Percy, I am glad to hear it!
That covers all colours, cultures, races & creeds of radio 4 listening pipe-fitters etc. Naturally!:D
Karia
NickInTheNorth
27-Jul-07, 21:24
What?all of it, or the fighting reference....or the fact that most of 'em are the same colour?
yes, yes, and yes
How can understanding another person be irrelevant?
You just didn't understand me properly.
percy toboggan
27-Jul-07, 21:38
yes, yes, and yes
A quick google search will reveal that most of the civil wars in recent years take place in Africa.
Cameron had just returned from his 'hug-a-tootsie' visit to Rwanda - or was it 'hug-a-hootu' (no apologies for mis-spelling' Seriously Nick in the north I just trusted my instincts and my general knowledge. ? African tribes have killed each other for fun for centuries which leaves old Highly salacious's theory up the creek without an oar'
Unlike South Africa, which as loads of 'em - oars.
A quick google search will reveal that most of the civil wars in recent years take place in Africa.
African tribes have killed each other for fun for centuries
:roll::roll:!
Karia
helenwyler
27-Jul-07, 22:08
[quote=percy toboggan;247838]I I know I've had a couple tonight
Yes I think you have. You're becoming completely obnoxious IMO.
percy toboggan
27-Jul-07, 22:31
[quote=Tristan;247677]IThen it struck him.
He had been on the beach a long time. He had thrown maybe 50 or 60 of the
clay balls with their hidden treasure into the ocean waves. Instead of
thousands of dollars in treasure, he could have taken home tens of
thousands, but he had just thrown it away!
quote]
If he'd waited for the tide to come back in chances are those same balls would have washed up again. The worst that has happened here is that he's found at least one precious stone. Result!
If only we could all find at least one true gem amongst all the clay balls then life is worthwhile. I'm lucky and have a couple.
I did find your e.mail strangely reflective of it's prime content. Balls.
Sentimentalist balls at that.
percy toboggan
27-Jul-07, 22:36
[quote=percy toboggan;247838]I I know I've had a couple tonight
Yes I think you have. You're becoming completely obnoxious IMO.
Then avoid me Helen, please. I'm worse when sober I'm afraid , however , I adore penguins. They could teach us all a thing or two.
clay balls I'm lucky and have a couple.
Sadly, old bean, we refer to that size as grit in these parts.
Your input comes across as Jingoistic Sharn at best, Racist Jobby Jostling at worst.
Of course, you are only saying what many other people are thinking. In that respect, I admire your honesty. However, an in depth look at all races will show that there is good and bad within each and every one of us.
In the UK we seem all too keen to blame everyone, other than ourselves, for the way of the world. Of course, I am sure you can produce evidence that all the "John Bulls" during the Second World War all stuck strictly to their ration limitations and no underhand activity took place. If anyone DID work a flanker, then I am sure that it could be traced back many generations to a point in time that a "Hint of Ginger" entered the Gene Pool.
Perhaps we could have children labelled at birth in the UK. I would think a legend across the forehead, that lasted a lifetime, reading "Warning, may contain traces of Foreigner" would assist the "True Brits" in judging who they are superior to.
New Balls please!!
changilass
28-Jul-07, 00:15
Good volley Scorrie
He had to get one right eventually by the law of averages changilass. :lol:
Joking aside, scorrie is of course absolutely right and percy hides his innate racism behind ersatz working class grit and a saccharin sweet flowery eloquence that charms and disarms less gifted wordsmiths and discourages them from responding lest they be labelled as lily livered liberal lefties.
Face it percy, you have examined the facts as you see them and concluded that whites are better than blacks. What you don't see is that your analysis is childish, incomplete and naive and your conclusions are plain silly. :Razz
"He's poor, he's foreign, he's honest - I DON'T TRUST HIM!" :roll:
Boozeburglar
28-Jul-07, 13:35
They were of Asian appearance.
Why didn't you say that then? Why so imprecise, with all that mighty 'English' language to draw from?
Karia: if you think my post was 'outrageous bigotry' then you cannot, in my humble opinion have met, spoken to, much less read the words of very many bigots. I've been called a 'bigot' on ocassion - it is often shorthand for a lack of will, or lack of appetite to debate. The word is bandied about by many whose knee jerk reaction to unpleasant truths is to look askance before attempting to deny the rights of others to express an honest opinion.
Your post is simple bigotry. You enter or begin these debates frequently yet you seem to learn nothing. Worse, you are an arm chair bigot, you are too much of a coward to go out and express these views where they may be challenged in a more direct way. I know this because I have encountered many bigots, and spoken at length to people like you. My observation is that there are few fewer of you sort around than there were twenty years ago.
If that indicates erosion in the 'good old ways' then I welcome it.
You remind me of some grumpy old bore in the corner of the pub continuously ranting on about the ills of the world, arms folded and mind closed.
Boozeburglar
28-Jul-07, 15:00
I appreciate your opinion and I agree with what I think you are about. But, my opinon slightly differs. I hear a lot of calls from black communities/pressure groups/ musical influences in popular media, etc etc(to the effect) that being black/asian is something to be proud of, and it is not censored by authorities. Unfortunately, the message that says 'I am proud to be white' is now something to be ashamed of.
There is no hope for true racial equality within UK society, until we can all stand up to say with pride and without prejudice about who we are are, regardless what colour we are or from what ethnic background we belong, sad really?
The colour of a person's skin is no indication of their nationality.
That is a statement, not an opinion.
How does my post relate to your opinion as expressed?
You set it up as though your view somehow counters mine, but the only view I gave was that Percy is a bigot.
Does your post address this?
As for the content of your post, what are you talking about?
I thought you were an ex policeman?
I hear a lot of calls from black communities/pressure groups/ musical influences in popular media, etc etc(to the effect) that being black/asian is something to be proud of, and it is not censored by authorities.
Would you want it to be? You do however, infer by this statement that this is not the case for similar organisation who promote being white in a similar way. Not the case. They are free to operate.
Unfortunately, the message that says 'I am proud to be white' is now something to be ashamed of.
True, but it is society as a whole that is ashamed of such sentiments, and it has nothing to do with it being ‘illegal’ to be proud of being white. It is more to do with such a sentiment being associated with groups who seek to divide society on perceived racial grounds and oppress others on the basis of their skin colour. In that respect, it is in fact a very fortunate development that society takes such a position.
When was there ever a Britain before the rise of immigration when it would not have seemed peculiar to focus on something as abstract as one’s skin colour when expressing pride? To be proud of being a Yorkshire man, a miner, Cornish, Scots, etc. I can see, but the issue of whether one is white or not and any attendant standpoint based on that is a recent reaction to a perceived threat from ‘outside’ and the need to identify a simple way of identifying the ‘enemy’ in order to organise and unite against such. This has fallen flat of course, now that a great number of immigrants look the same as the majority of ‘us’.
So it is NOT illegal to form a group based around the idea that being white is something to be proud of. However, the purpose for most groups that form amongst the disadvantaged and oppressed groups is to counter their disadvantage or oppression, what would the purpose be for a group whose aim was to promote pride in being white?
You won’t find many Black Pride groups in countries where people self identifying as black are treated equally and are assimilated in a natural way, or who historically form the majority of the local population and are self governing.
There is no hope for true racial equality within UK society, until we can all stand up to say with pride and without prejudice about who we are are, regardless what colour we are or from what ethnic background we belong, sad really?
Contrary to the inference of your post, there is nothing stopping anybody in this society from standing up and saying who they are with pride.
It is their reason for doing so which shall rightly be scrutinised.
percy toboggan
28-Jul-07, 15:08
He had to get one right eventually by the law of averages changilass. :lol:
Joking aside, scorrie is of course absolutely right and percy hides his innate racism behind ersatz working class grit and a saccharin sweet flowery eloquence that charms and disarms less gifted wordsmiths and discourages them from responding lest they be labelled as lily livered liberal lefties.
Face it percy, you have examined the facts as you see them and concluded that whites are better than blacks. What you don't see is that your analysis is childish, incomplete and naive and your conclusions are plain silly. :Razz
Thanks - I've kept the middle bit for a frame. Yer a something of a 'wordsmith' yourself Crayola.
Now then, as for 'naive' I might well be and freely admit. Aren't we all? What is happening in Britain - more especially the southern half is an experiment never before tried anywhere on the face of the globe. The great big melting pot. Foisted upon an unsuspecting, some might say 'naive' populace with too few houses, too few hospitals and a bleak outlook for the ageing rump of society. A rump which grew up in a different age and finds itself almost forced to adapt, or be called silly names like 'racist' by kneejerk lib/labs with a conscience they seek to impose upon everyone. Well I'm having none of it.
As for the grumpy old man in the pub Boozeburglar I might well be one day - coming to a pub near you! You've already called me a 'coward' and a few other choice turns of phrase. You'll not be buying me a pint then?
Well, I found I could check all the boxes in percy's Approval List, right down to Radio 4. And I think there are two things that he and I have in common -we're the same age and we're both grandparents. And, like me, he might well feel a lot of concern about the world our grandchildren are growing up in.
People have always thought that though I'm sure, and looking backwards (especially with these rose-tinted glasses we all don at times, and with the benefit of hindsight) is futile. The world is changing ever faster, not always for the better, it's challenging to come to terms with, and I find I often need to reconsider my opinion about all manner of things.
Definitely still a Grumpy Old Woman at times, but I'm coming to the end of a very trying few years and am now finding so many small things in life interesting, exciting and NEW. I was lucky enough to get a second chance at living, life is very precious, and I'm certainly not going to waste it in looking for the bad in everything.
percy toboggan
28-Jul-07, 15:35
Well, I found I could check all the boxes in percy's Approval List, right down to Radio 4.....
.....I was lucky enough to get a second chance at living, life is very precious, and I'm certainly not going to waste it in looking for the bad in everything.
Stick to my list then and you'll be allreet.:D
The bad gets thrust into my face on a regular basis. News only this morning for instance gangs run amok in Moss Side and Longsight overnnight - disturbingly close to 'Toboggan Towers' one dead and others injured. 'Fallen soldiers' no doubt and other such pathetic epithets will appear scrawled in text speak on the labels of flowers, left to drown in the rain.
Don't let me bring you down, all I ask for is a modicum of understanding.
Thanks - I've kept the middle bit for a frame. Yer a something of a 'wordsmith' yourself Crayola.
Now then, as for 'naive' I might well be and freely admit. Aren't we all? What is happening in Britain - more especially the southern half is an experiment never before tried anywhere on the face of the globe. The great big melting pot. Foisted upon an unsuspecting, some might say 'naive' populace with too few houses, too few hospitals and a bleak outlook for the ageing rump of society. A rump which grew up in a different age and finds itself almost forced to adapt, or be called silly names like 'racist' by kneejerk lib/labs with a conscience they seek to impose upon everyone. Well I'm having none of it.Thanks for the 'wordsmith' compliment and apologies for using the lib/lab wordsmith's lousy aliteration with lots of 'ell' words.
Southern Britain is not the only liberal democracy with a recent and quickly growing 'multiultural' element. There's the Netherlands' large Pacific island population (think Ruud Gullit and Frank Rijkaard, mmmm), Germany's Turkish population (Islamic) and France's North African population (also islamic). Then there are the USA's black, Mexican, Cuban, Chinese, Japanese, etc, etc ethic populations.
We'll never agree but I don't deny these are your honest opinions.
...What is happening in Britain - more especially the southern half is an experiment never before tried anywhere on the face of the globe. The great big melting pot. ...
The experiment has been well under way in Toronto for about 50 years. I don't suggest that it is without many learning moments, nor that it has been a happy time for all of the original citizens of the city. Yet there has been much progress made toward discovering how to live together. Toronto is now the most ethnically diverse city on the face of the globe.
My comment has to do with the "never tried anywhere else" observation.
Sorry for omitting Canada canuck. Isn't Toronto supposed to be one of the most multicultural cities in the world?
Sorry for omitting Canada canuck. Isn't Toronto supposed to be one of the most multicultural cities in the world?
Yes, ethnically diverse naturally leads to multicultural if it is permitted and in Toronto it is encouraged.
rockchick
29-Jul-07, 14:11
About 10 years ago I was sitting in a subway car in Toronto with about 60 other human beings...slowly it dawned on me that I was the ONLY visibly white person there, and that strangely enough it didn't really feel weird. Very multi-cultural - and that's a good thing!
percy toboggan
29-Jul-07, 14:13
If you read my post more closely you will see I mentioned various social conditions like schools and housing. I'd guess Torontoi has sufficient in both cases. What is health provision like? I have flown over the city twice and it's obvious that there is much room to spread, on a national basis you have room for fifty more cities without feeling overcrowded at all. Compare this with the dearth of open spcae in England and youm ight consider that comparing the two is somewhat spurious canuack. I respect your input , and I respect Toronto's goals because as a fairly modern city in a fairly modern land it needed the world to congregate in Canada to give you all a fighting chance of prosperity. We didn't. All we needed here was a wage hike in the most unpleasant of jobs and temporary contracts for those incomers who wished to do them. Also a raise in social status for those doing what are considered 'menial' jobs by folk who should know better. Brave new world is Canada. If I were ten years younger I might consider emigration myself , now they are desperately short of truck drivers. Britain however, is very 'old world' and old dogs are the hardest to teach the new tricks.
percy toboggan
29-Jul-07, 14:17
About 10 years ago I was sitting in a subway car in Toronto with about 60 other human beings...slowly it dawned on me that I was the ONLY visibly white person there, and that strangely enough it didn't really feel weird. Very multi-cultural - and that's a good thing!
Perhaps you were on holiday in Toronto. I'd expect multi-ethinicity there, but hope for ONE culture. Hows about you'd been on a bus in Wick? Would it have felt weird then? Answer honestly. You cannot be locked up for honesty. Yet.
rockchick
29-Jul-07, 15:08
Perhaps you were on holiday in Toronto. I'd expect multi-ethinicity there, but hope for ONE culture. Hows about you'd been on a bus in Wick? Would it have felt weird then? Answer honestly. You cannot be locked up for honesty. Yet.
No Percy, I lived in Toronto for many years. Prior to that I lived on the west coast of Canada, which is also multi-cultural, although not to the same extent as Toronto.
While I was living in Wick I would not have described it as multi-cultural per se, although I have met Italians, East Indians/Pakistani, English, Scottish, Irish, and other Canadians living there, and probably other ethnicities that I can't mind at the moment, so there is an element of it. As a "colonial" I WAS a minority, so there's no additional weirdness to answer to.
(p.s. you CAN be locked up for honesty...its called "incriminating yourself".)
percy toboggan
29-Jul-07, 15:11
(p.s. you CAN be locked up for honesty...its called "incriminating yourself".)
Of course, thanks for the reminder ;)
Percy , ever thought that what your are feeling now regards so called " foreigners " invading our shores is exactly what others felt when the " British empire " decided they wanted a hand in India, new Zealand, Africa, west Indies etc etc. Maybe they sat there and thought
" bloody white man " :eek:
percy toboggan
29-Jul-07, 19:16
Percy , ever thought that what your are feeling now regards so called " foreigners " invading our shores is exactly what others felt when the " British empire " decided they wanted a hand in India, new Zealand, Africa, west Indies etc etc. Maybe they sat there and thought
" bloody white man " :eek:
Oh I doubt it. We brought innovation in the shape of steam railways, and taught them what to do with the precious minerals we dug out of their ground. We imported their crops like tea, and paid them a modicum for it. We provided employment and taught their kids to read and write. We didn't blow them up without warning on their way to work - well very few.
All in all a better deal than we are getting now I reckon.
ah Percy but did they want us there, did they invite us ? and I dare say a large amount of bloodshed until the Britsh Empire got their way.
percy toboggan
29-Jul-07, 19:36
ah Percy but did they want us there, did they invite us ? and I dare say a large amount of bloodshed until the Britsh Empire got their way.
Might was right I'm afraid. Our evolution was gathering apace and we needed to expand our frontiers to benefit the aristocracy and the monied. I'm not saying it was right . Lord knows the woeking classes got little out of it. However those colonised countries would still be living in the dark ages if it hadn't happened. The Antipodes proved a good dumping ground for crims and for a while back there it looked as though they got a good deal.
Of course Empire Building was not the way to go but it wasn't my idea.
As for bloodshed - they needed no lessons in that - not many of them anyway.
However those colonised countries would still be living in the dark ages if it hadn't happened
You make it sound like they should be gratefulfor imposing Britishness on them, our culture, laws and ideals. Make them tolerate us in their country one way or the other, whether they liked it or not.
Hotel Rwanda to back up your Theories !! I belive military coups / warring factions happen in various countries regardless of skin tone.
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