View Full Version : Homeless police officers
Has anyone read the Herald and noticed the story about the homeless Northern police officers. Some are having to live with friends in vans or on boats because they are unable to afford to move with their families because of the high cost of property. What are the Constabulary doing about it? What they normally do - nothing!
What a shame, seems there are police houses lying empty in some of the villages up here
Has anyone read the Herald and noticed the story about the homeless Northern police officers. Some are having to live with friends in vans or on boats because they are unable to afford to move with their families because of the high cost of property. What are the Constabulary doing about it? What they normally do - nothing!
What are they supposed to do? They already pay their salaries. The police should pay for their housing out of that like other workers are expected to. Why should they get any special treatment?
Dont policemen get a housing allowance? I know prices are steep but i dont beleive they cant afford to rent somewhere themselves or go into a police house. Hmm - one couple who are both officers that i know about own property down south to rent, are in a police house and have just bought a house for themselves. Ok if they were transferred to INverness they might have to sell stuff to buy something nice but hey thats life
I think what veekay is trying to say and i havent seen the article is, when a police officer comes out of college now, your 1st posting could be anywhere, the police dont pay for your 1st removal (unless its an island), so moving as anyone knows is expensive, and a probationers wage is low, so trying to get a mortgage on that is difficult, there is no housing allowance anymore, and police houses usually come with single man stations, which you have to more experienced before you can apply for that.
The start for any young probationer is very difficult money wise, you are nearly 6 months in college with no overtime, so trying to save is difficult.
Isnt that common with any new career? how many people can walk out of college and into a job and get a mortgage straight away? It might be five or six years of hard saving before most people can afford a mortgage and i would think that its the same in many careers. Ist it too big an expectation to think anything different?
absolutely, so now everyone knows that the police dont get any special treatment, no houses, no allowances, they are no different to anyone else struggling, except everyone still presumes there are so many perks still with the job!!
policemen and woman are on good wages especially if they have a bit of service and are a lot higher paid that most working people and ther in the same boat as the restof the working people.
Sometimes it makes u wonder if u are better of being unemployed and get a house of the council and get all the benifits or even be a gypsy it really makes u wonder sometimes it really does.
I recall a police officer with 2 years service being paid less than the manager of his local Burger King. He wondered why he was enduring the crap and the possibility that one day he might not come home when he could be working for more for BK....
Its exactly the same for new recruits in the prison service, first move to their establishment after college is at thier own cost, coupled with the wage structure review a few years ago means recruits are
A. having to claim benifits
B. have trouble affording a mortgage
C. have trouble paying private rent costs
Over the years their salary goes up in increments, but will never be anywhere near what most of us dinosaurs are on. They are left feeling why they take all the crap at work, assaults etc when they could be working for the likes of Asda for the same money.
http://www.policecouldyou.co.uk/officers/benefits.html
hobbes1962
23-Jul-07, 21:52
http://www.policecouldyou.co.uk/officers/benefits.html
Why have you given a link for informationon English Forces?
http://www.northernconstabularycareers.co.uk/content/police_constables/pay_scales.php
Try the above link instead.
Not huge wages, but not bad either. I'm sure there are a lot of people managing to home themselves on a lot less - me included.
goober girl
23-Jul-07, 22:18
Police Officers in Northern Constabulary are expected to work anywhere in the Force area. That's from Shetland to Stornoway to Glencoe and everywhere in between. They also do a difficult and often DANGEROUS job. They are the ones people call when things go wrong and are expected to sort everything out, to everyone's 100% satisfaction, 100% of the time.
They are essential workers / key workers, call them what you like. It is not the same as working at Asda or Burger King. Those employees are not expected to move their families and whole lives every 5 years or so (unless they CHOOSE to for promotion etc). Police Officers Salaries reflect the tasks they are expected to do and the anti social hours they work.
Not since 1994 have Police Officers had 'perks' like housing allowance. So there a less and less every year with that luxury.
Also Police housing is not widely available anymore.
These 'luxuries' used to be in place as some recompense to officers having to transfer around the force.
Has anyone noticed that house prices are rising faster than most people's salaries? That means more and more folk will find it harder to get on the property ladder in the future.
Re. the Herald article, it is widely known that house prices in Fort William have been astronomical for years. Probably more than double the value of Wick houses.
All key worker professions are struggling to recruit and retain good workers to serve in outlying /remote areas. it is not just the Police. Nurses, firebrigade etc are included. People shouldn't forget who serves them when there is an emergency
Tubthumper
23-Jul-07, 22:24
I used to think
It was a sin
If there was some
Trouble brewin’
I could not find
A Polismin
No matter how I tried
But now I know
How, thank you, please
A Constable
To find with ease
It’s simple as
A snott’ry sneeze
Salvation is at hand
Just find a wheelie
Kind of bin
And if you take
A quick look in
You’ll find a bobby
And his kin
A’ sleeping kind of rough
Or if not there
They’ll no’ be far
Just look inside
Abandoned car
They can’t afford
To shop at Spar
Or even at the Tesco’s
The pay’s so bad
Each bobby’s tense
They can’t afford
The great expense
They’re living in
Wee two man tents
Wi’ totty bit stoves
They’re angry, yes
Kickin and punchin’
An’ cooking up
A sorry luncheon
Tomorrow they’ll
Be eating truncheon
For early breakfast
But dinnae fash
And dinnae worry
They will respond
To 999 hurry
Especially if
You promise curry
At nae great expense
A wee bit better
Than the dole is
A job within
The Northern Polis
Where ye hang yer hat
That’s where yer hole is
And where ye sleep
Ye’ll see nae liftin
Late at night
E’en after violent
Oot-pub fight
The space in Black
Maria’s tight
For Polis sleepin’
Yet we sleep sound
In beds in Thirsa
Though crime in Scotland’s
Getting worser
I’ll drink a toast
And never curse ‘er
The Northern Constabulary
Whose finest men
And women’s sleepin’
In bales of hay
And cryin’, peepin’
Wir Caithness peace
They're always keepin’
Bless them all!
http://www.northernconstabularycareers.co.uk/content/police_constables/pay_scales.php
Try the above link instead.
Notice that the starting salary is higher than for nurses and teachers.
This is a wee bit off the topic, but if police officers have no homes to live in therefore no address, how do they get a bank account? and thus how do they get paid?
It is experience that speaks here. My situation wasn't quite so dire, but when I was in Scotland it took me 7 weeks to establish a residence and thus qualify for a bank account which was necessary for the direct deposit which many government agencies use for salary payment now.
I don't think that responding to the address question with "my car" would go very far with the bank.
DeHaviLand
24-Jul-07, 00:51
If you were in a job where your employer demanded that you transfer to a new office 150 miles away, and then insisted that you had to do this every 5 years, wouldnt you become just a little concerned about the extra expense you would be involved in.
And if your spouse was in a good job, and you had bought your dream home in that part of the country where you both worked, would you find it unreasonable to be ordered to move 150 miles away?
Do you then insist that your spouse leaves their job? Insist that the house is sold? Then you move to where you were ordered to move to, spouse has no job, and because of this you cant afford to buy a house in the new area.
I wouldnt imagine that it was a situation that anyone here would volunteer to put themselves in, so have a heart and engage your brain before slating the police for finding themselves in a situation that is not of their making.
cullbucket
24-Jul-07, 01:06
This is a wee bit off the topic, but if police officers have no homes to live in therefore no address, how do they get a bank account? and thus how do they get paid?
It is experience that speaks here. My situation wasn't quite so dire, but when I was in Scotland it took me 7 weeks to establish a residence and thus qualify for a bank account which was necessary for the direct deposit which many government agencies use for salary payment now.
I don't think that responding to the address question with "my car" would go very far with the bank.
Probably because they are not immigrants and already had a bank account since a younger age....
quote=cullbucket;246110]Probably because they are not immigrants and already had a bank account since a younger age....[/quote]
Fair enough!
I guess my point was that in this day and age (and many ages before us) an address was crucial in establishing a normal place in society. Income tax is not processed without a fixed address. Credit card companies don't send bills without an address (well other than "my car"). And now to the irony of the whole thing: The police department itself has policies for dealing with vagrants, those people without a fixed address and "my car" surely cannot be considered a fixed address.
cullbucket
24-Jul-07, 03:18
I travel around quite a bit and managed to open a bank account, buy a car, insure and register it, get a social security number, arranged a mortgage and many other things here in the US by using my work address as my correspondence address. Once I bought a house, I changed all the addresses to that....
the nomad
24-Jul-07, 08:51
Has anyone read the Herald and noticed the story about the homeless Northern police officers. Some are having to live with friends in vans or on boats because they are unable to afford to move with their families because of the high cost of property. What are the Constabulary doing about it? What they normally do - nothing!
All due respect and not wanting to kick up a storm but I think this news article is rubbish, Police do a good job and are well paid for it they receive allowances etc which increases income. This strikes me as a propoganda stunt for paying them more, we're all in the same boat. I also remeber they used to get an allowance for mortgages or rent.
All due respect and not wanting to kick up a storm but I think this news article is rubbish, Police do a good job and are well paid for it they receive allowances etc which increases income. This strikes me as a propoganda stunt for paying them more, we're all in the same boat. I also remeber they used to get an allowance for mortgages or rent.
What additional allowances do they receive, Nomad? I was not aware of any mortgage or rent allowance? Please elaborate? I think the reality is we're not all in the same boat, as most of us can pick and choose where we live. Heavens, if my hubby and I were made (not asked, but MADE) to sell up and move to Inverness for example, I really don't know if we'd be able to afford property there on his wages alone...
I think DeHaviLand has it spot on, well said De!
If they are made to move then the force will move them surely and pay expenses connected with that. There is bound to be an additional housing costs allowance where someone moves to a higher priced area.
IMHO, I to think this article is a lot of nonsense, having been a Civil Servant for most of my working life, the rules for moving within your department are well laid down and if you have to move on a promotion, or any such move, the Civil Servant is compensated, I know many Civil Servants who started off with a Single End in Leith, moved around the country gaining experience and promotion, and finaly coming back to a house with 4 bedrooms in Morningside, all paid for by the Civil Service.
See the attached link reference the re-location of civil servants from Edinburgh to Glasgow
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=802&id=117202007
If they are made to move then the force will move them surely and pay expenses connected with that. There is bound to be an additional housing costs allowance where someone moves to a higher priced area.
Nope!!! definately not the first posting believe me!!!
the nomad
24-Jul-07, 17:32
IMHO, I to think this article is a lot of nonsense, having been a Civil Servant for most of my working life, the rules for moving within your department are well laid down and if you have to move on a promotion, or any such move, the Civil Servant is compensated, I know many Civil Servants who started off with a Single End in Leith, moved around the country gaining experience and promotion, and finaly coming back to a house with 4 bedrooms in Morningside, all paid for by the Civil Service.
See the attached link reference the re-location of civil servants from Edinburgh to Glasgow
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=802&id=117202007
Good man Golach.
In the case of the police the the relocation costs for the first post is not paid for, but others would be.
IMO considering what is involved in their job their pay is not very high.
all paid for by the Civil Service.
I think you mean by the taxpayer.
j4bberw0ck
24-Jul-07, 20:12
I recall a police officer with 2 years service being paid less than the manager of his local Burger King. He wondered why he was enduring the crap and the possibility that one day he might not come home when he could be working for more for BK....
Well, in the interests of balance, the manager of Burger King won't have anything like the benefits package, and won't be able to retire on full pension after 30 years' service at the age of say 48with an index-linked, largely-publicly-funded pension.
I was just making a point that their pay is not that good when they start out...
j4bberw0ck
24-Jul-07, 20:15
I think you mean by the taxpayer.
He most certainly did; well said. The taxpayer pays civil servants their generous index-linked pensions, too :grin: .
CHOICE!
I don't believe anyone forces the new recruits into the job, misleading them with streets paved with gold!
In the scheme of things they are quite well paid. Lets assume two people leave college and one goes to join the constabulary and one starts training to be a quantity surveyor, after around three years the copper has completed their probation and on a good basic plus shift allowance (around 12 to 14% normally but upto 20%) plus weekend working allowance a bit of overtime here and there plus a good pension and good holidays, this can take the average earnings to around £30K.
The trainee quantity surveyor after three years leaves university with a wagon load of debt and if they are lucky get a post grad' position at £17 to £19K.
Horses for courses really!
Out of all the coppers I know and have worked with the main reason for leaving the force or complaining is conditions and generally being poohed on from above, and all the bureaucratic nonsense and the amount of time wasted locking up persistent offenders who get released without charge or at best get a very small fine but go on to make peoples lives a misery.
Starting out in any career or vocation is tuff but it’s the long term you need to consider and also your choice of job! What makes you happy? But that is another topic.
P.S. How much are the forces on that are currently out serving in some pretty rough places right now, Baghdad/Afghanistan or Saturday night in Wick at kicking out time…. I know where I want to be!
But that IS another topic.
Buttercup
24-Jul-07, 21:52
How much are the forces on that are currently out serving in some pretty rough places right now, Baghdad/Afghanistan or Saturday night in Wick at kicking out time…. I know where I want to be!
But that IS another topic.[/quote]
Indeed Listener, but as you told us loud and clear they the same as everyone else Choose their career. And afterall when you join the forces what do you expect to do? As one of the Grenadier Guards said tonight on TV "You join the Army to fight". But there again .......... that's another story/topic!
P.S. Not picking on you just my opinion
Baghdad/Afghanistan or Saturday night in Wick at kicking out time…. I know where I want to be!
I'm sure the polis do too, however from what I've heard Wick on a Saturday night is not for the faint of heart either :eek:.
I think there is quite a lot of hot air being posted with regards to the benefits of the job - I checked out the link one of the PP's had included, and there's no word of weekend allowance/shift allowance or super duper holidays. I dare say many of the fine men and women of the constabulary are also having to fork out a fair whack of their salaries on additional insurance policies to ensure their families are not left in the lurch if anything should happen to them in their potentially dangerous role. Does anyone know their pension contribution, out of curiosity?
...basic plus shift allowance (around 12 to 14% normally but upto 20%) plus weekend working allowance a bit of overtime here and there plus a good pension and good holidays, this can take the average earnings to around £30K.
As far as I am aware they do not get a 'shift allowance' or 'weekend working allowance', their basic pay reflects the shifts they have to work - they do get overtime but that is for working on their days off, a reasonable compensation when sometimes they can go for weeks without proper rest days.
They pay into their pension scheme (11% of their pay) so they are not getting that pension free....
I think you mean by the taxpayer.
The Department I worked for raised and collected Revenue, and thats where my salary came from.
Are you saying becuse I get a modest pension from HMRC, I am a drain on the Taxpayer?
Blazing Sporrans
24-Jul-07, 22:51
Well, in the interests of balance, the manager of Burger King won't have anything like the benefits package, and won't be able to retire on full pension after 30 years' service at the age of say 48with an index-linked, largely-publicly-funded pension.
Don't quite know what the benefits packages are J4bber, but I've spoken to my bro on this and for those who don't know that I've mentioned it before, he's a Chief Inspector in Grampian. He is salaried and doesn't get paid for overtime, none of the serving Police Officers of the rank of Inspector or above get paid for overtime so when the brown stuff hits the revolving thing, the more senior cops are more often than not doing it for gratis. You used to get a rent allowance and your rates paid for in the Police - either that or a Police house. Where are the Police houses now? Sold off like the family silver for some short-term cash injection. They stopped giving the rates allowance when the rates disappeared and the Poll Tax came in. Nothing has since been allocated to replace that, so that's one allowance gone. Younger officers of twelve years service or less do not qualify for a rent allowance - no recruits have done since about 1994 or thereabouts - another allowance gone. You may be transferred from Wick to Inverness - yes they'll pay something towards your relocation - legal expenses etc - however not necessarily the whole lot and they do not contribute to the extra £50-75k that you'll have to cough up to try and purchase an equivalent property. Police Officers do get good pensions, however how many others pay 11% towards their pension scheme? Over his career, my brother estimates having invested over £80k into his pension scheme, and growing over 30 years, he thinks he's entitled to a return on his money. How many of the rest of us pay that amount or anything like it? He's also paying compulsory contributions and tells me that most Police officers take home something like 60-65% of their gross wage. So the disposable income for a £20k a year recruit actually boils down to somewhere between £12-13k. That's approx £1000 a month - not on the breadline for sure - but not the lap of luxury that some of you believe. And by the way - he may retire at 48, but the pension doesn't get index-linked 'til he's 55. Of course joining the Police is a career choice, however as my brother puts it - when he joined at 19, he only had himself to think of - he had no comprehension of what it would be like twenty years down the line, still having to move and uproot the family. Very few people are that farsighted enough to consider that.
j4bberw0ck
24-Jul-07, 22:52
They pay into their pension scheme (11% of their pay) so they are not getting that pension free....
11% less tax relief. And in no way does paying 11% cover the cost of paying an index-linked pension from 50 years old. Not even close. The taxpayer subsidises it heavily.
No, golach, I'm not saying you're, per se, a drain on the taxpayer. I was echoing Tristan's comment that civil servants' pensions and benefits aren't paid for out of nothing; they're paid for by the taxpayer. You lost sight of that in your original comment about civil servants moving up the housing ladder at the expense of the Civil Service; the Civil Service is an expense funded by the taxpayer.
So by extension, your comment that your salary came from the department that raises and collects revenue is wrong. It came from the taxpayer and no one else. Governments and public servants are good at forgetting that, and that's a big problem.
Blazing Sporrans
24-Jul-07, 23:17
11% less tax relief. And in no way does paying 11% cover the cost of paying an index-linked pension from 50 years old. Not even close. The taxpayer subsidises it heavily.
Where is the tax relief on the 11%? And as MadPict said earlier, there is no shift allowance, no weekend enhancement allowance (that's the civillian staff who get that) as Listener seems to have made up or been sadly misinformed about. It's a thankless job, working unsociable 24 hour rotation shifts (which I once did and even as a young man found exhausting). The great holidays extend from 20 days as a recruit to a maximum of 28 for cops more senior in service. I think you'll find that on a par with most employers out there - certainly nothing great about it!
No, golach, I'm not saying you're, per se, a drain on the taxpayer. I was echoing Tristan's comment that civil servants' pensions and benefits aren't paid for out of nothing; they're paid for by the taxpayer. You lost sight of that in your original comment about civil servants moving up the housing ladder at the expense of the Civil Service; the Civil Service is an expense funded by the taxpayer.
So by extension, your comment that your salary came from the department that raises and collects revenue is wrong. It came from the taxpayer and no one else. Governments and public servants are good at forgetting that, and that's a big problem.
Spoken like a true non civil servant, Civil Servants were always payed below
the wages norm, and had a non contirbutary pension, but these pension rights were always negotiated in any pay negotiations, We worked to make your life a bit easier, well in my part I tried to catch and convict Bootleg Baccy smugglers and Drug Smugglers, it was a job I enjoyed, and I would gladly do it again, if it gave me an increase in my pittance of a pension
Blazing Sporrans
24-Jul-07, 23:28
And where do the rest of society get their pensions from by the way? Are mere NI contributions sufficient to pay the basic pension for someone living for thirty years after retiral age - never worked it out, so I'd be curious as to the answer... I pay into two schemes to provide something like the income I expect to require to get by on when I retire. Are you saying J4bber that there is no pension fund for the Police? What on earth happens to the 11% of 700 cops pay in Northern Constabulary then? Even at a conservative estimate, that's probably two to two and a half million quid a year.
The Department I worked for raised and collected Revenue, and thats where my salary came from.
Are you saying becuse I get a modest pension from HMRC, I am a drain on the Taxpayer?
Your words not mine!
I don't know how you got from moving allowances to pensions but if you bothered to follow the thread
...the rules for moving within your department are well laid down and if you have to move on a promotion, or any such move, the Civil Servant is compensated...all paid for by the Civil Service.
[QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Tristan;246396]
I think you mean by the taxpayer.
As a civil servant your wages are paid for by the taxpayer. This is true for any civil servant. I made no comment on what you did or didn't do as a civil servant, I am merely pointing out (unless self funded) who funds the civil servant's move.
j4bberw0ck
25-Jul-07, 00:37
And where do the rest of society get their pensions from by the way?
Well, many (like me) contribute to a pension scheme which Gordon Brown robbed blind in 1997. Civil servants and MPs aren't affected by his fraud and dishonesty. It's clear, Sporrans, you don't know the first thing about pensions so if you need some light reading let me know and I'll send you some links.
EDIT
Sporrans, I'm sorry, this sounds very rude; believe it or not it wasn't meant that way. I can't do anything just now to answer your question but will work on it. Two and a half million pounds is almost enough, for instance, to pay Tony Blair's or Gordon Brown's standard government pension. As a contribution to cover 700 police officers it's a drop in a bucket.
oldmarine
25-Jul-07, 00:41
Isnt that common with any new career? how many people can walk out of college and into a job and get a mortgage straight away? It might be five or six years of hard saving before most people can afford a mortgage and i would think that its the same in many careers. Ist it too big an expectation to think anything different?
Squidge, you have stated my experience and the experience of my children. They have large college loans to pay off and have to rent until they can get a large enough down-payment to buy their home. There are, of course, those who work menial jobs that don't pay enough wages that prevents them from ever buying their own home. That's the way it is in a non-communist society. In a communist society you are owned by the government and that's the way it is there. It depends on whether you want to live in a free society or in a society where the government owns you. That's my opinion and I'm stuck with it. GRIN!!!
Has anyone read the Herald and noticed the story about the homeless Northern police officers. Some are having to live with friends in vans or on boats because they are unable to afford to move with their families because of the high cost of property. What are the Constabulary doing about it? What they normally do - nothing!
In my day, the police got the full works, housing allowance or accomodation with bills paid, nowadays I believe they just get the basic wage and a bit of boot money. If we pay peanuts then we we get peanuts in return. :( It's a shame.
Police are on the 'Key Workers' scheme down here which means they either get to rent a housing association house for peanuts or they get help to buy.
Phew! I didn't mean to stir up so much angst amongst the orgers. I just thought that it was a bit sad to have police officers, who we all rely on to do a hard job, living in such a way. Moving from an area of low housing cost to one of high cost is just so hard for all of us, it is just some professions - and the police is one such profession - you have the choice of move or go.
They, for the most part, do a good job. The pay is ok but not great and I know there are others out there doing just as important a job for less - nurses for example - but I still think it is rotten
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