View Full Version : A new Cold War? Russia pulls out of key arms pact
sorghaghtanibeki
14-Jul-07, 11:45
A new Cold War? Russia pulls out of key arms pact
Russian President Vladimir Putin has suspended involvement in one of the key post-Cold War arms control treaties. In a statement, the Kremlin said the choice was due to "extraordinary circumstances" affecting security.Russia has been angered by US plans to base parts of a missile defence system in Poland and the Czech Republic. The Conventional Forces in Europe Treaty limits the number of heavy weapons deployed between the Atlantic Ocean and the Urals mountains. A Nato spokesperson said that the alliance's secretary general would "very much regret the decision" if confirmed. "The allies consider this treaty to be an important cornerstone of European security," he said. In a separate interview, Nato spokesperson James Appathurai told the BBC the move was "a disappointing step in the wrong direction".
The CFE agreement, one of the key Cold War European security accords, was signed eight years after the Warsaw Pact was dissolved. It sets limits for the number of tanks, heavy artillery and combat aircraft, as well as troops, deployed in the region. The BBC's Europe editor, Mike Saunders, says that the US announcement of its plans for a missile defence shield within Europe was the last straw for Russia. Mr Putin saw the plans as further unbalancing a treaty that already limits the conventional arms Russia can deploy on its own territory. The Kremlin maintains that the 1990 treaty is outdated and restricts its ability to move troops around its own territory. Russia ratified the 1999 revised version, but Nato has not done so. Nato is first demanding the withdrawal of Russian forces from two breakaway regions with Russia-speaking majorities - Abkhazia in Georgia and Trans-Dniester in Moldova.
Camel Spider
14-Jul-07, 12:32
With the Hatchet Job performed on our Forces by Mr Bliar I sincerely hope not.
Putin does seem to be playing hardball though, no doubt its ominous.
Margaret M.
14-Jul-07, 14:34
I am not surprised considering the actions of the Bush Administration in the world forum.
Boozeburglar
14-Jul-07, 14:44
Putin and Bush ain't gonna be round for long, so don't worry. It is just posturing, what is new?
Whilst everybody's attention is being pointed in the direction of Bush and the Middle East, Putin is busily dragging Russia back to being a One Party Dictatorship with him at it's head. Opposition is being suppressed and journalists who speak out against him end up having "unfortunate accidents".
He is pressurising the weaker of the old Soviet States to return to Russian control either by force or by use of cutting supplies of oil and gas in winter using the suppliers he has put back under State Control. Attempts are made to rig elections in favour of pro-Russian leadership and if that fails opposition leaders who are not pro-Russian suffer sudden illnesses having all the signs of exotic poisonings.
Putin has taken much of the power from the Russian Parliament and taken it into his own hands so he an make new laws by his decree.
And guess who is providing the technicians involved in building Iran's nuclear power industry. Never mind bombs, they are people from the same background as those who built and ran Chernobyl and are doing their own "quality control". No matter how shoddy their work Iran cannot get rid of them because they are not allowed to get replacements from elsewhere so they are stuck with them.
I very much doubt Putin is going to give up power in the near future, If he is willing to try and "fix" elections in other places I doubt he will have any qualms about doing so for his own benefit.
As far as he is concerned the Cold War never went away, it's just going through an inter-glacial period before being slowly freezen back to it's old level.
Could n't agree more Jaws, Putin seems to be hell bent on taking his country back to full state control.
This should have all of us worried as just when it seemed that Russia was becoming a democracy, albeit a fledgling one, suddenly the sabres are being rattled, coersion applied,economic sanctions used and any other means of supression that can be disguised either under the law or outside it.
Could n't agree more Jaws, Putin seems to be hell bent on taking his country back to full state control.
This should have all of us worried as just when it seemed that Russia was becoming a democracy, albeit a fledgling one, suddenly the sabres are being rattled, coersion applied,economic sanctions used and any other means of supression that can be disguised either under the law or outside it.
What should have us even more worried is that JAWS didn't say anything about Putin which doesn't also apply to Bush. America too is gradually losing their democracy, their constitution hardly exists any more, their last two presidential elections have been rigged.
Russia isn't planning to build military bases on any of America's borders, America is building military bases on Russia's borders, the aggression is coming from America not Russia. Russia has abided by the non proliferation treaties, they have been dismantling their nuclear arsenal. America has broken them, they have developed and built new nuclear weapons since they signed and they have altered their rules of engagement to allow for their pre-emptive use.
Russia has been very patient in the face of American imperial aggression, their patience is wearing thin.
Yoda the flump
15-Jul-07, 00:29
Yep, have to agree with Fred on this one.
The former Soviet Union has undergone many changes over hte last 15 or so years and countries that Russia used to rely on for defence are now part of NATO or cosying up to the US - any wonder Russia feels threatened by US policy.
Before we start becoming concerned with the Russian actions we should look over the Atlantic.
Camel Spider
15-Jul-07, 00:49
Russia has made a lot of progress but they arent there yet, the recent actions against Gay Rights protesters were hardly democratic were they ??
With their recent claim of "This bit of the North Pole is ours" claim they have shown that when push comes to shove they act in their own interests, admittedly America do as well but lets not start looking at Russia with rose tinted spectacles shall we ??
And the countries that are now cosying up to Nato and joining the EU have in most cases have been occupied by Russia and are ex Communist countries, the choices they made were made by them for their benefit.
I can understand where you are coming from Fred and would agree that the siting of a new early warning system by The USA on the borders of what was formerly a satelite state of The Soviet Block could be seen as offensive.
However given that we have no idea who Bush thinks the agressor is and if he even knows where The Czech and Slovak Republics are we could also view it as an act of complete folly.
How long to the next Presidential elections?
Russia has made a lot of progress but they arent there yet, the recent actions against Gay Rights protesters were hardly democratic were they ??
Exactly the same thing happened to Gary Kasparov, a former Russian Chess Champion, who is now an outspoken critic of Putin. He and a handful of other anti-Putin demonstrators had received exactly the same treatment a few weeks prior to the gay rights demonstrators.
If you want to know what happens when you are critical of Putin try Googling Anna Politkovskaya, a Russian Award Winning Journalist, who wrote article criticizing the widespread abuse of civilians by Russian Troops in Chechnya. She was shot to death in the elevator of her apartment block.
Ivan Safronov, another respected Russian Journalist who was critical of Putin, was killed in a terrible fall from a balcony in his apartment block.
They are only two of over 150 such Russian journalists who have met similar deaths since the end of the Soviet Era. Obviously criticising the Kremlin can be very bad for your health.
Anybody remember the unfortunate poisoning of Viktor Yushchenko who stood against the pro-Russian Candidate in the Ukraine. Fortunately they botched the job and failed.
Having said that, I’m going to stay well away from Sushi Bars!
What should have us even more worried is that JAWS didn't say anything about Putin which doesn't also apply to Bush.Then why are you not as vocal when it comes to Putin's behaviour as you are about that of Bush if the same applies to both?
You have plenty to say about civilian deaths in Iraq but make no complaint about the slaughter of innocent civilians in Chechnya. It seems, “All innocent civilians are equal, but some are more equal than others!” I suppose the hand-wringing over civilian deaths all depends on who is responsible for them.
Camel Spider
15-Jul-07, 06:31
Nice Spot.
I had forgotten about Kasparov, and Putin doesnt seem to be too keen to extradite the suspect in the recent posioning case either does he ??, I did a very quick search here ..
http://www.answers.com/topic/vladimir-putin
Would you trust a man who was KGB from 1975 to 1991 and then went into politics ?? .. he is just dripping with integrity isnt he .. ;)
This is a man quite capable of pulling us into another Cold War and for me the last Cold War was summed up by a visit to the East/West Germany border in 1989. On the wall on our side someone had written simply "Before you lies East Germany .. Look and Weep", I really do not want to see the likes of that in my lifetime again.
Camel Spider
15-Jul-07, 06:37
Then why are you not as vocal when it comes to Putin's behaviour as you are about that of Bush if the same applies to both?
You have plenty to say about civilian deaths in Iraq but make no complaint about the slaughter of innocent civilians in Chechnya. It seems, “All innocent civilians are equal, but some are more equal than others!” I suppose the hand-wringing over civilian deaths all depends on who is responsible for them.
Spot on.
Im pretty sure that if you put Fred in a room on his own he would still end up arguing !! .. and it would all be the fault of George Bush, the Israeli's, etc etc.
Fred is the kind of person who will defend Putin now and if the worst does happen he will then be the one criticising all and sundry on our side for not doing anything about it !!
Jeemag_USA
15-Jul-07, 07:39
Spot on.
Im pretty sure that if you put Fred in a room on his own he would still end up arguing !! .. and it would all be the fault of George Bush, the Israeli's, etc etc.
Fred is the kind of person who will defend Putin now and if the worst does happen he will then be the one criticising all and sundry on our side for not doing anything about it !!
You seem to know an awful lot about Fred considering you just joined the forum?
PS I think its 'most common' and not commonest ;)
Well I for one am glad people are showing concern for what is going on in what may become another "Cold War". The last time Putin and co were discussed here ( http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=230348#post230348 ) there were a few people who thought there was nothing to worry about and the rest of us were just wasting our time.
Then why are you not as vocal when it comes to Putin's behaviour as you are about that of Bush if the same applies to both?
It was your article which was one sided not mine, you are the one trying to push all the blame onto Russia when America is the aggressor. You are the one saying the death of Ivan Safronov was murder while making no mention of Dr David Kelly. When Russia cuts the gas supply to a country refusing to pay market price for it you call that political while making no mention of America's siege of Palestine to overthrow their democratically elected government.
Anyone can see anti Russian propaganda any time they want, any newspaper, any news report, any of your articles. Look at the fuss because Russia withdraws from the Conventional Forces in Europe treaty yet in 2001 when America withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty so they could militarise space there was hardly a murmur.
Every time you use the same stupid argument worthy of a 12 year old, in the 7/7 bombers thread it was "Funny you don't constantly bang the drum for the people being butchered and abused in various parts of Africa, especially in East Africa.", every time you try and explain away the truth as anti-Americanism when all the time I am saying it because it is true and nobody else will.
You seem to know an awful lot about Fred considering you just joined the forum?
Dare I ask how long you have been a member of the .Org? And what difference the time one is a member has to a forum?
Dare I ask how long you have been a member of the .Org?
I find it's easier to just look at the bit that says "Join date" at the top of peoples posts.
Valerie Campbell
15-Jul-07, 14:07
The Cold War has never really been over. It's been one of diplomatic attrition and now Russia is asserting itself once more because it feels threatened by what Bush has done elsewhere in the world. They are wondering if they are next in the Bush conquest of the world, no matter how unlikely that is. Putin, however, was always going to drag Russia backwards, it's just no one knew how far. The balance of power changed so much in the 1990s that Russia lost its status as a superpower and that left the US as the only superpower. It all boils down to balance, no matter where you are in the world.
Camel Spider
15-Jul-07, 15:14
You seem to know an awful lot about Fred considering you just joined the forum?
PS I think its 'most common' and not commonest ;)
In the times I have read the Forum it is painfully apparent what kind of viewpoint he has.
Thank you for the correction .. thats me put in my place.
Love your observations Valerie,USA is a number 1 S/power!Like it or otherwise. Trite comment I know,however we must bow to the best saviour of our life style,an if you would have it otherwise?then spell it out!
Jeemag_USA
15-Jul-07, 17:27
Dare I ask how long you have been a member of the .Org? And what difference the time one is a member has to a forum?
If you really need to ask Golach, its written above everyones post, but sure you know that anyway. Secondly I don't recall directing my question to you so mind your own business you grumpy owld man! ;)
I am sure Camel (plant) Spider can answer for his or herself and as you can see they have done.
Love your observations Valerie,USA is a number 1 S/power!Like it or otherwise. Trite comment I know,however we must bow to the best saviour of our life style,an if you would have it otherwise?then spell it out!
Who's lifestyle are the USA saviours of? Tori Spelling? Nichole Ritchie? paris Hilton,...sure as heck not mine!:roll:
Or the shameful number living on welfare or on their streets!
karia
Love your observations Valerie,USA is a number 1 S/power!Like it or otherwise. Trite comment I however we must bow to the best saviour of our life style,an if you would have it otherwise?then spell it out!
If they are the only superpower then why would we need them as a savior?
The US has a huge arsenal of weapons and pretty deep pockets I know, however, I think their biggest problem is that the world stage does not take Bush seriously - without strong leadership there can be no real power.
Who's lifestyle are the USA saviours of? Tori Spelling? Nichole Ritchie? paris Hilton,...sure as heck not mine!:roll:
Or the shameful number living on welfare or on their streets!
karia
I agree there are a lot of problems in the US, a lot of great people but a lot of problems.
Who's lifestyle are the USA saviours of? Tori Spelling? Nichole Ritchie? paris Hilton,...sure as heck not mine!:roll:
Or the shameful number living on welfare or on their streets!
karia
Living as we do in a capitalist democracy there are going to be side effects that non of us will be proud of. Many of us have to struggle along just to keep ahead of the welfare queue but considering the alternatives that are being discussed here I know the system I would prefer.
sorghaghtanibeki
16-Jul-07, 16:10
It has started!
UK expels four Russian diplomats
The UK is to expel four diplomats from the Russian embassy in London after Moscow refused to extradite the suspect in the murder of Alexander Litvinenko.
Foreign Secretary David Miliband also said co-operation with Russia on a range of issues was under review.
Prosecutors want Andrei Lugovoi, an ex-KGB officer, to face trial in the UK. He denies involvement. Former KGB agent Mr Litvinenko died of exposure to radioactive polonium-210 in London in November 2006.
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