View Full Version : The savages are at it again / Glasgow airport attacked
sorghaghtanibeki
29-Jun-07, 13:40
The savages are at it again in london
Petrol, gas, nails what type of savages these people are - this in the name of their god? please read; "God is Not Great; how Religion Poisons everything" by hitchens.
Metalattakk
29-Jun-07, 16:55
Nonsense.
This whole affair is reeking of 'political publicity stunt'. It's all designed to make new PM Broon look good in his first few days in power.
Tell me, why would a suspected suicide bomber crash his car into a bin, after driving erratically at 2 O' Clock in the morning?
It's all a set-up, I tell you.
Jeemag_USA
29-Jun-07, 17:07
Nonsense.
This whole affair is reeking of 'political publicity stunt'. It's all designed to make new PM Broon look good in his first few days in power.
Tell me, why would a suspected suicide bomber crash his car into a bin, after driving erratically at 2 O' Clock in the morning?
It's all a set-up, I tell you.
Hmmm, it is a little bit suspicious isn't it.
The savages are at it again in london
Petrol, gas, nails what type of savages these people are - this in the name of their god? please read; "God is Not Great; how Religion Poisons everything" by hitchens.
Savages they are but there is a lot to be said about western countries interfeering with the middle east affairs if the uk disengaged from middle east affairs this type of terrosim would stop
Hmmm, it is a little bit suspicious isn't it.
Not sure if that is support or not for Jeemag. However, Jeemag seems as well informed on terrorism as the man in charge of the country he lives in and about as careful in his judgement!!!
Maybe the bomber was in a rush to get away. Some reports say the car was not occupied when it hit the bins - allowed to go it alone!!
Jeemag_USA
29-Jun-07, 17:53
Not sure if that is support or not for Jeemag. However, Jeemag seems as well informed on terrorism as the man in charge of the country he lives in and about as careful in his judgement!!!
Maybe the bomber was in a rush to get away. Some reports say the car was not occupied when it hit the bins - allowed to go it alone!!
Go take your fishing rod somewhere else, your not even worth rising to. The sign of a bad poster is attack someone else first then give your own flimsy opinion, and I didn't realise being informed included words like "maybe" in your assesments [lol]
Perhaps we should 'calm our jets' for a few days and see what transpires.
It is hard to retract indignation on any side, in the face of incoming facts, which may illuminate any discussion.
Karia
Nonsense.
This whole affair is reeking of 'political publicity stunt'. It's all designed to make new PM Broon look good in his first few days in power.
Tell me, why would a suspected suicide bomber crash his car into a bin, after driving erratically at 2 O' Clock in the morning?
It's all a set-up, I tell you.
You gott'a say we are all legally able to voice our own observations,an so it must be,but I have to say this one upsets me. Smacks of something - I don't know mayb'e disloyalty, treason! P'rhaps I am too trusting but I just do not see where you are coming from!
Jeemag_USA
29-Jun-07, 21:43
You gott'a say we are all legally able to voice our own observations,an so it must be,but I have to say this one upsets me. Smacks of something - I don't know mayb'e disloyalty, treason! P'rhaps I am too trusting but I just do not see where you are coming from!
The only thing that strikes me as suspicious about this is the fact that the UK has been on severe alert since August 2006, and this heightened security situation did not even get a wiff of this?? I mean if a terrorist group are able to get this far with a plan to the point of finishing then it fails, it shows the security is not working. For a bomb of this type, you either ignite it by ramming or you use a detonation device from nearby, if they were using a detonation device and thought they had been rumbled they woudl have set it off. So it smells a little bit. Now I am hearing they have found a second car. Its certainly strange and authorities obviously had no clue about it.
You gott'a say we are all legally able to voice our own observations,an so it must be,but I have to say this one upsets me. Smacks of something - I don't know mayb'e disloyalty, treason! P'rhaps I am too trusting but I just do not see where you are coming from!
It's easy, for years now the public has been manipulated by our government and the media. We were manipulated into a war in Afghanistan and manipulated into a war in Iraq.
Over a year ago I raised the issue of Lockerbie (http://forum.caithness.org/showpost.php?p=78999&postcount=203) on this forum, it was met with the usual derision from the usual people. Just yesterday a review board decided the case must be reopened (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6248290.stm), it was a set up, Libya was framed, it was obvious all along but people insisted on trusting the government and ignored all the evidence.
If you must be trusting find someone worthy of trust, the government has let us down so many times now it's madness to just keep on trusting them.
Eddie, I have to disagree, these people follow a different agenda that is barely comphrehensible to those of us who live with free speach,freedom of religion etc.
They do not see us as members of the human the human race to the fanatics we are infidels and therefore are to be destroyed by any means.
Whilst I take your point that their affairs have been meddled with disastrously over the last three millenia that is not the root cause of the terror.
The causes are many but the basic principles are about religion and control.That is why like Europe did 500 yrs ago Shia is killing Sunni only in our not so distant past it was Roman Catholics versus Protestants.
We have moved on and if the moderate voice of Islam can make itself heard then just may be they can too.
The darned incident isn't 24 hours old and already it's spawning silly conspiracy theories.
Ah well, I suppose somebody has to try and be more inventive than the Brothers Grimm!
Watch out for a Pied Piper being followed by a load of kids? Well, it's a more believable story than some of the fairy tales being invented here!
Tubthumper
29-Jun-07, 22:56
Has anyone officially either claimed or been blamed for this? Are we not being a bit previous in apportioning the 'savagery' to anyone of any religious persuasion at this time?
Remember, the Americans instantly pointed the finger at Moslem extremists for the Oklahoma bombing - only to be seriously embarassed when it turned out to be a good-ol' white boy that done the deed.
Apparently.
Jeemag_USA
29-Jun-07, 23:01
The darned incident isn't 24 hours old and already it's spawning silly conspiracy theories.
Ah well, I suppose somebody has to try and be more inventive than the Brothers Grimm!
Watch out for a Pied Piper being followed by a load of kids? Well, it's a more believable story than some of the fairy tales being invented here!
Yeah I heard they are making a JAWS 5 as well, but its been shelved cause they couldnae find a realistic shark that was smart enough for the lead role [lol]
It's easy, for years now the public has been manipulated by our government and the media. We were manipulated into a war in Afghanistan and manipulated into a war in Iraq.
Over a year ago I raised the issue of Lockerbie (http://forum.caithness.org/showpost.php?p=78999&postcount=203) on this forum, it was met with the usual derision from the usual people. Just yesterday a review board decided the case must be reopened (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6248290.stm), it was a set up, Libya was framed, it was obvious all along but people insisted on trusting the government and ignored all the evidence.
If you must be trusting find someone worthy of trust, the government has let us down so many times now it's madness to just keep on trusting them.Hasn't Tony had just got back from having a cosy little chat with his good pal Mahmood? Suddenly there is a new appeal for the Lockerbie Bomber.
Now isn't that strange? Especially after the idea of returning Libyan Prisoners back home to serve their sentences looked like becoming a political embarrassment!
Go take your fishing rod somewhere else, your not even worth rising to. The sign of a bad poster is attack someone else first then give your own flimsy opinion, and I didn't realise being informed included words like "maybe" in your assesments [lol]
Yeah I heard they are making a JAWS 5 as well, but its been shelved cause they couldnae find a realistic shark that was smart enough for the lead role [lol]
You were saying?
Jeemag_USA
30-Jun-07, 14:41
You were saying?
Exactly my point ;)
sorghaghtanibeki
30-Jun-07, 17:02
savages at Glasgow airport now
Go take your fishing rod somewhere else, your not even worth rising to. The sign of a bad poster is attack someone else first then give your own flimsy opinion, and I didn't realise being informed included words like "maybe" in your assesments [lol]
I suppose you still think those terrorist incidents are still stunts with Glasgow Airport being attacked with a burning car bomb and people injured. Innocent folk (a Bush favourite word!) with families in the terminal that was attacked on the first weekend of the school holidays. The Airport you may well pass through when returning to Scotland!!
Perhaps a response to the absurdity of Tony Blair's appointment as a 'peace envoy'.
Karia
sorghaghtanibeki
30-Jun-07, 18:28
report from persons in queue at Glasgow airport: "we were standing in line waiting for check-in, when we heard a crash and the plate-glass doors smashed with a vehicle on fire, someone said run and we all headed for an exit, I came outside and looked to my right and saw that a man was by the Jeep pouring something onto the car out of a can, he was on fire, he fell to the ground and tried to get up, but fell again. There was an official in a fluorescent jacket and I said to him 'can't we help him!' the man replied let the 'bleep' burn!"
hmm that sounds fare enough.
Perhaps a response to the absurdity of Tony Blair's appointment as a 'peace envoy'.
Karia
I thought that must be a sick joke when I first heard about it.
The man who did for Iraq what the Luftwaffe did for Coventry as a peace envoy? The man who opposed a UN resolution for a Lebanon ceasefire? Which Middle Eastern country in their right minds would trust him?
Has anyone claimed responsibility?
These attacks are rarely perpetrated by those groups who wish not to be associated with them. What would be the point!
Apart from, the opposing forces wishing to create negative publicity for their adversaries of course,...OR..positive publicity for their own nefarious ends..Now there's a thought or two!
Karia
I suppose you still think those terrorist incidents are still stunts with Glasgow Airport being attacked with a burning car bomb and people injured. Innocent folk (a Bush favourite word!) with families in the terminal that was attacked on the first weekend of the school holidays. The Airport you may well pass through when returning to Scotland!!
It didn't really happen, honest. It is a huge plot by the SNP to draw attention away from London.
What really happened is they have filmed it all in a huge hangar secreted in the Highlands (well, they couldn't find a desert in Britain where they could hide it).
Sorry, I just thought I would get my silly "Conspiracy Theory" in first before the professionals get going! :eek:
I am shocked to watch sky news right now,
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1273090,00.html
I have just seen the news about Glasgow airport too. What time did this happen. I hope no one has been injured in this awful, senseless incident. My folks are flying out from Glasgow next week, so I'm worried now.
©Amethyst
30-Jun-07, 19:36
I suppose some of you have an answer for the Glasgow and the Ibiza incident, too.
How many of you live in scotland and have direct ties with the goings on in Westminster City? Not many I guess.
I don't think it was a set-up. Although I can't say much - let me just say that the police are taking it very seriously. And that car pound? I was talking to one of the guys that was there at the time. No one would have let that car at Park Lane had they known what was in it.
And tomorrow, I'll probably be dealing with the situation again.
The 'it'll never happen to me' attitude that some have around here is silly. People, it CAN happen to you.
For goodness sake - I've not heard of anyone chasing some kid down the street with a sword or a baseball bad (or whatever it was) in Westminster City... yet it happened in Wick!
Perhaps a response to the absurdity of Tony Blair's appointment as a 'peace envoy'.
Karia
To try to blow up families including young children on the day after they finished school for the summer holidays!! Hardly a logical response to an appointment of a politician. Barbaric savages is the only name for those people. Whatever one thinks of Tony Blair, and I hardly liked hime myself, one can certainly not condone is inhuman act. The attemp to even connect Tony Blair's appointment to this on the thread is less than sypathetic to the families involed and who by good luck in the main seem to have survive a vicious attack.
Did I suggest that it was a 'logical' response?
The juxstaposition of Tony warmaker/ now Tony peacemaker, surely if we can see it here... !?
Don't dare for a moment think I condone evil from any side.
Karia
Did I suggest that it was a 'logical' response?
The juxstaposition of Tony warmaker/ now Tony peacemaker, surely if we can see it here... !?
Don't dare for a moment think I condone evil from any side.
Karia
Not logical but a suggested response when a condemnation of the act and intended carnage and a mark of sympathy would have been more in order at this time.
Our Lads are needed at home now, so get them home, id feel safer and it would send a clear message to any terroist trying to attack Britain, US have troops on the streets and (so far) it seems to be working, so why not us?
Jeemag_USA
30-Jun-07, 22:56
Our Lads are needed at home now, so get them home, id feel safer and it would send a clear message to any terroist trying to attack Britain, US have troops on the streets and (so far) it seems to be working, so why not us?
The USA do not have troops on the streets anywhere, not even at airports unless they are flying to and from overseas. That job is for tactical police units. I do agree with your point on bringing troops home though.
Not logical but a suggested response when a condemnation of the act and intended carnage and a mark of sympathy would have been more in order at this time.
I don't remember seeing too much sympathy around for the 7 children killed when the US Air Force bombed their school on Tuesday.
anneoctober
30-Jun-07, 23:54
Will this stop any orgers & families going away? We're still flying to Newark on the 10th July from Glasgow all being well. - IF the USA will have us ! :eek:
Internment is the answer.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 00:14
Internment is the answer.
Or concentration...?
sorghaghtanibeki
01-Jul-07, 07:55
Fred
the savages at Glasgow on porpose tried to kill children, the yanky's did not. please go away and hide from reality
I must confess that I cannot understand two things:
1) Why do we still have our troops in Iraq? If they are so intent on killing each other (and, remember... both sides are at it) then pull out and let them get on with it. Block and embargo all inward and outward travel and wait until the massacre is over.
2) Why we still persist in allowing enormous numbers of these maniacs into the country. Britain has become the dumping ground for crooks, criminals, fascist and terrorists. Get them all out. They all close shop and deny that anyone is up to planning or inciting terrorism, the "not us" syndrome, but it always comes down to them. If they are so innocent then let's see them spilling the beans on the maniac factions amongst them, instead of sheltering them.
:confused
Fred
the savages at Glasgow on porpose tried to kill children, the yanky's did not. please go away and hide from reality
Reality is 7 children were killed by the US Air Force Tuesday, real flesh and blood feel pain children, just as we are killing real people every day in Afghanistan and Iraq.
No children were killed at Glasgow airport, that's just your imagination.
You are the one hiding from reality, I'm the one who has been reading the news from Afghanistan and Iraq every day, read about the carnage there every day and when I see the reaction to a few failed amateur terrorist incidents in this country I wonder if maybe they are made of sterner stuff than we are.
You reap what you sow people you reap what you sow. You can't declare war on terrorism then start whinging when terrorism fights back, only an idiot would have expected them not to.
I must confess that I cannot understand two things:
1) Why do we still have our troops in Iraq? If they are so intent on killing each other (and, remember... both sides are at it) then pull out and let them get on with it. Block and embargo all inward and outward travel and wait until the massacre is over.
2) Why we still persist in allowing enormous numbers of these maniacs into the country. Britain has become the dumping ground for crooks, criminals, fascist and terrorists. Get them all out. They all close shop and deny that anyone is up to planning or inciting terrorism, the "not us" syndrome, but it always comes down to them. If they are so innocent then let's see them spilling the beans on the maniac factions amongst them, instead of sheltering them.
:confused
I don't know but I would think that those responsible were born here, their parents too, are a product of our society. It was in the 50s and 60s that we imported people from Muslim countries to rebuild Britain after the war. They were refugees from the mess we left India in when the Empire collapsed.
I take it the US Air Force took off from Glasgow Airport then. :roll:
You forgot to say which Tuesday fred. Do you mean Tuesday 26 June 2007 or are you digging up old news items(again) to give some credence to your comments?
sorghaghtanibeki
01-Jul-07, 10:03
Fred: "No children were killed at Glasgow airport, that's just your imagination"
Fred I write that the savages TRIED to kill. Again I like many others will ignore your sillyness
Fred: "No children were killed at Glasgow airport, that's just your imagination"
Fred I write that the savages TRIED to kill. Again I like many others will ignore your sillyness
You insist on sympathy for your imaginary children yet have no sympathy at all for real children who were actually savagely murdered in Afghanistan.
Is it any wonder half the world hates us.
sorghaghtanibeki
01-Jul-07, 11:24
oh dear I yawn
-whitewall-
01-Jul-07, 14:48
You insist on sympathy for your imaginary children yet have no sympathy at all for real children who were actually savagely murdered in Afghanistan.
Is it any wonder half the world hates us.
Never did I think we'd find an Al Qaeda apologist on caithness.org
Difference is freddy, these scum are targetting innocent people and attempting to cause maximum loss of life. Its unfortunate if any innocent people are killed in Afghanistan or Iraq or anywhere else, but they arent the targets, and in many cases they are killing each other due to sectarian hatred, not as if our troops are on orders to kill as many Iraqi's as possible is it.
Metalattack and jeemag USA, bet you feel stupid now.[lol] "It wuz our government" blah blah. I take it the fella who jamp out of the jeep shouting Allah while swinging punches at the police worked for Brown, and was prepared to kill himself to help Brown's "publicity stunt":roll:
Wibble.
Sorghaghtanibeki, the Tuesday fred refers to would appear to be Tuesday the 8th of May and not, as people are obviously intended to believe, the Tuesday just gone.
An American Helicopter was shot at from the ground and when it returned fire the children were hit. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6637307.stm
Terrorist habitually make use of women and/or children, especially young children, as human shields in the hope that they deter return fire and knowing full well that if they do then reports of dead and injured women or children are good for the “sympathy vote”. It's even better if they can get some nice gory pictures shown in the media.
Drawing return fire in the vicinity of schools, hospitals and crowded areas make for great propaganda in the full knowledge that some people are only too eager to grab at it.
It’s an very old and well tested strategy.
-whitewall-
01-Jul-07, 15:02
Sorghaghtanibeki, the Tuesday fred refers to would appear to be Tuesday the 8th of May and not, as people are obviously intended to believe, the Tuesday just gone.
An American Helicopter was shot at from the ground and when it returned fire the children were hit. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6637307.stm
Terrorist habitually make use of women and/or children, especially young children, as human shields in the hope that they deter return fire and knowing full well that if they do then reports of dead and injured women or children are good for the “sympathy vote”. It's even better if they can get some nice gory pictures shown in the media.
Drawing return fire in the vicinity of schools, hospitals and crowded areas make for great propaganda in the full knowledge that some people are only too eager to grab at it.
It’s an very old and well tested strategy.
Spot on jaws. And very true of the recent Israel/Hezbollah conflict where a huge number of Hezbollah hideouts and places where they stored weapons were in built up highly populated areas.
I thought that must be a sick joke when I first heard about it.
The man who did for Iraq what the Luftwaffe did for Coventry as a peace envoy? The man who opposed a UN resolution for a Lebanon ceasefire? Which Middle Eastern country in their right minds would trust him?
You want to ynow something! Not everyone looks thru your narrow binoculars!-Luftwaffe -- coventry.???
Jeemag_USA
01-Jul-07, 15:52
Metalattack and jeemag USA, bet you feel stupid now.[lol] "It wuz our government" blah blah. I take it the fella who jamp out of the jeep shouting Allah while swinging punches at the police worked for Brown, and was prepared to kill himself to help Brown's "publicity stunt":roll:
Wibble.
Nope, certainly don't feel stupid, and have no intention of feeling that way any time soon. My coment after Metalattak was that the whole situation is suspicious, it still is and has gotten more so. The UK has been on a SEVERE terrorist alert since August 2006 and now it has been raised to CRITICAL after our own security forces were unable to foil three supposed terrorist attacks in which there have been no fatalities. So what are our seucirty forces doing whilst on severe alerts by time amateurs can run around getting stuff ready and going all the way with it and then just failing at the very end for no reason. If you ask me the police and security departments in the UK should be a tad ashamed of themselves right now, for such an amateur operation they did not even git a bit of chatter or a tip off. I guess you were at the airport to hear all this the guy was shouting then whitewall and you saw him throwing punches. Or was he waving his arms around because he was on fire and talking gibberish. If I feel that my mind at any time is as easily fed as yours then I will let you know that I feel stupid. I said these instances are suspicious thats all, and I still feel the same way.
Wobble
sorghaghtanibeki
01-Jul-07, 16:05
jeemag
i learn you are not american, but have stupid ideas nonethe less. british security can not hope to catch amateur reaction from savages who think they will copy failure in london. you are still "suspicious" ? do you need poke with sharp stick first to see? you i think have fred disease
Boozeburglar
01-Jul-07, 16:16
I suppose some of you have an answer for the Glasgow and the Ibiza incident, too.
How many of you live in scotland and have direct ties with the goings on in Westminster City? Not many I guess.
I don't think it was a set-up. Although I can't say much - let me just say that the police are taking it very seriously. And that car pound? I was talking to one of the guys that was there at the time. No one would have let that car at Park Lane had they known what was in it.
And tomorrow, I'll probably be dealing with the situation again.
The 'it'll never happen to me' attitude that some have around here is silly. People, it CAN happen to you.
For goodness sake - I've not heard of anyone chasing some kid down the street with a sword or a baseball bad (or whatever it was) in Westminster City... yet it happened in Wick!
Violent crime is rife in Westminster, and it makes Wick look like a convent in comparison. Wick may have problems, but they are microscopic comparatively.
People up North have all known or known of someone who died as a result of terrorism at some time. Just because we were geographically distanced from it in the past does not mean there is no appreciation of the effect it has.
Just my two pennies.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 16:33
jeemag
i learn you are not american, but have stupid ideas nonethe less. british security can not hope to catch amateur reaction from savages who think they will copy failure in london. you are still "suspicious" ? do you need poke with sharp stick first to see? you i think have fred disease
I notice you're not to comfortable with the english language. Sorghagtanibeki, eh, that sounds a bit.. foreign. If I were a suspicious cove, I'd wonder what you were up to. Coming over here, trying to take over our community web-site!
I don't have an issue with people believing what they want to BUT I'd like to chuck in my tuppenceworth. All Asian-looking men are not terrorists. All Moslems are not terrorists. It's only 10 years since we were experiencing car-bombings and other atrocities at the hands of our own home-grown terrorists in Northern Ireland.
Careful, people, it's starting to look a bit xenophobic!
-whitewall-
01-Jul-07, 16:48
Nope, certainly don't feel stupid, and have no intention of feeling that way any time soon. My coment after Metalattak was that the whole situation is suspicious, it still is and has gotten more so. The UK has been on a SEVERE terrorist alert since August 2006 and now it has been raised to CRITICAL after our own security forces were unable to foil three supposed terrorist attacks in which there have been no fatalities. So what are our seucirty forces doing whilst on severe alerts by time amateurs can run around getting stuff ready and going all the way with it and then just failing at the very end for no reason. If you ask me the police and security departments in the UK should be a tad ashamed of themselves right now, for such an amateur operation they did not even git a bit of chatter or a tip off. I guess you were at the airport to hear all this the guy was shouting then whitewall and you saw him throwing punches. Or was he waving his arms around because he was on fire and talking gibberish. If I feel that my mind at any time is as easily fed as yours then I will let you know that I feel stupid. I said these instances are suspicious thats all, and I still feel the same way.
Wobble
Eye witness accounts my friend. Watch the news, you might learn something:roll:
I've no doubt intelligence is lacking, just the huge scale of intelligence they have to wade through must be overwhelming at times and as has been shown in the past that if wrong can be a tragedy (Menezes). The police, anti-terrorist units etc etc have to prioritise, after looking at intelligence, who to follow/arrest etc. Or what do you expect, for them to follow every single Muslim in the UK around ? For you to think they can stop any old scum like this from driving themselves into airports then you really are naive.
There have been huge numbers of arrests in this country since 7/7 which means they are hard at work. But as the IRA(i think) said,they have to be lucky all the time, we only have to be lucky once. For every ten terrorists arrested there will be one who carries something out.
And of course it could always be some pi**ed off muslim sat in his house who wanted to carry something out on hearing Rushdie was getting a knighthood. Not sure how intelligence could stop any old muslim so and so from carrying that out.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 17:07
I've no doubt intelligence is lacking, just the huge scale of intelligence they have to wade through must be overwhelming at times and as has been shown in the past that if wrong can be a tragedy (Menezes).
The police, anti-terrorist units etc etc have to prioritise, after looking at intelligence, who to follow/arrest etc. Or what do you expect, for them to follow every single Muslim in the UK around ? For you to think they can stop any old scum like this from driving themselves into airports then you really are naive.
There have been huge numbers of arrests in this country since 7/7 which means they are hard at work. But as the IRA(i think) said,they have to be lucky all the time, we only have to be lucky once. For every ten terrorists arrested there will be one who carries something out.
And of course it could always be some pi**ed off muslim sat in his house who wanted to carry something out on hearing Rushdie was getting a knighthood. Not sure how intelligence could stop any old muslim so and so from carrying that out.
Perhaps we should do what Rheghead suggested and put all asian-looking blokes in internment. Why not (re-) introduce detention without trial. Torture. Show-trials. Disappearances. 'Accidental' shootings.
Sound policies? Familiar? I thought that was why we invaded Iraq in the first place, to save the Iraquis from that terrible dictatorship that carried out such atrocities. Or was it all about oil after all, are our boys laying down their lives so that Bush can get his mitts on the black stuff?
The UK operates in the big world. That's what pays for our lifestyle. We make enemies because of the way we behave and because our beliefs are different.
Nothing can excuse blowing up innocent men women & kids, but to suppose that we can isolate ourselves from the awful things that happen - it's not just fred that's living in wonderland!!!
Don't worry, -whitewall-. Just check my Post 12 and you will see I got in there first with the "It never really happened it's all a great big scam" Conspiracy Theory.
If I find the secret location where they filmed it all I promise I'll let everybody know, but don't anybody hold your breath!
I'm waiting for somebody to tell us that all the World's Media are involved in the con-trick as well.
I think I'll go and read something more believable, that's if I can find a copy of Jack and the Bean Stalk!
All you 'doubting thomases' make me laugh - you really think that this is a carefully laid plan by the dark agents of the government to deflect the public gaze from something else? The fact that Blairs new home in Connaught Sq is not quite finished? That Brown actually hails from a Tory family? That Pete Doherty is not a smackhead but a genius?
I don't know about waking up and smelling the coffee - you people just need to wake up!!!!
Do you honestly believe it is an inside job?
Will you still believe it when there are images of dismembered innocent members of the British public lying in pools of blood being posted on the internet with the cries of "allah akbar" echoing over the footage?
Or will you then turn it around and claim that innocent Iraqis are being butchered everyday by the sinister forces of the NeoCon Oil Robber Barons? That it is fair enough because we are doing it to them?....[disgust]
The fact that these attacks failed points you to believe they were staged. It is only a matter of time until they succeed again.
But even when that day comes no doubt the conspiracy heads will mutter their usual load of drivel........
Sorghaghtanibeki, the Tuesday fred refers to would appear to be Tuesday the 8th of May and not, as people are obviously intended to believe, the Tuesday just gone.
Well it's not often you get anything right and you're wrong again.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/article2676970.ece
Never did I think we'd find an Al Qaeda apologist on caithness.org
You thought it was an exclusive club for Islamophobes and racists?
Difference is freddy,
My name is fred not freddy.
If you don't have enough brains to spell a four letter word how on earth do you expect to participate in intelligent debate?
You want to ynow something! Not everyone looks thru your narrow binoculars!-Luftwaffe -- coventry.???
I'm just looking at it through the eyes of someone who got their home and family blown up in Lebanon, Iraq or Afghanistan.
Appointing Blair as peace envoy is like employing Myra Hindley as a babysitter.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 19:18
I must confess that I cannot understand two things:
1) Why do we still have our troops in Iraq? If they are so intent on killing each other (and, remember... both sides are at it) then pull out and let them get on with it. Block and embargo all inward and outward travel and wait until the massacre is over.
2) Why we still persist in allowing enormous numbers of these maniacs into the country. Britain has become the dumping ground for crooks, criminals, fascist and terrorists. Get them all out. They all close shop and deny that anyone is up to planning or inciting terrorism, the "not us" syndrome, but it always comes down to them. If they are so innocent then let's see them spilling the beans on the maniac factions amongst them, instead of sheltering them.
:confused
I can't believe this thread has gone ballistic on conspiracy theory rejection. Surely we should be concerned about the facts of the matter, that a bomb attempt has narrowly failed in our own backyard. never mind scoring points off each other and slagging off.
Ricco, re your post above:
1. If we're talking about Iraq, they weren't knocking lumps out of each other five years ago, were they? And an economic blockade didn't work then either did it?
2. Get them all 'WHO' out? All Asian-looking people? Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists? Why stop there, why not kick out the Poles as well? Canadians? What about the Yanks - this is all their fault anyway, isn't it, with their tacit support of Israel over the Palestinian genocide and their endless striving for economic advantage...?
And then, Ricco, would we not expect some kind of backlash against all OUR types who work elsewhere? Those in the middle east making big bucks and paying no tax, those retiring to the sun, those on holiday in Thailand.
And our companies that make money out of overseas dealings. That would go down the pan too, wouldn't it?
Sorgahnteabekekibebki or whatever their name is would have to go too, surely. Which would be a bit ironic seeing as it was him that started the post.
As I said, its a big bad world out there and like it or not we are all involved. We can't be surprised when something horrible happens, although it might pain us to admit it, we don't live in a nice cosy isolated world. It doesn't always happen somewhere else.
DeHaviLand
01-Jul-07, 19:22
I notice you're not to comfortable with the english language. Sorghagtanibeki, eh, that sounds a bit.. foreign. If I were a suspicious cove, I'd wonder what you were up to. Coming over here, trying to take over our community web-site!
I don't have an issue with people believing what they want to BUT I'd like to chuck in my tuppenceworth. All Asian-looking men are not terrorists. All Moslems are not terrorists. It's only 10 years since we were experiencing car-bombings and other atrocities at the hands of our own home-grown terrorists in Northern Ireland.
Careful, people, it's starting to look a bit xenophobic!
This is just stupid and verging on racist Tubthumper, IMO.
All you 'doubting thomases' make me laugh - you really think that this is a carefully laid plan by the dark agents of the government to deflect the public gaze from something else? The fact that Blairs new home in Connaught Sq is not quite finished? That Brown actually hails from a Tory family? That Pete Doherty is not a smackhead but a genius?
I don't know about waking up and smelling the coffee - you people just need to wake up!!!!
Do you honestly believe it is an inside job?
Will you still believe it when there are images of dismembered innocent members of the British public lying in pools of blood being posted on the internet with the cries of "allah akbar" echoing over the footage?
Or will you then turn it around and claim that innocent Iraqis are being butchered everyday by the sinister forces of the NeoCon Oil Robber Barons? That it is fair enough because we are doing it to them?....[disgust]
The fact that these attacks failed points you to believe they were staged. It is only a matter of time until they succeed again.
But even when that day comes no doubt the conspiracy heads will mutter their usual load of drivel........
I don't think it was any secret that Brown was planning on withdrawing British troops from Iraq.
How does he do that now without people claiming it was a victory for the terrorists, without people saying the terrorist attacks were responsible for the withdrawal?
If the "bring 'em on" press and public weren't now running round crying like little whipped puppies over three failed terrorist incidents in which only a terrorist got hurt it might be different.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 19:31
This is just stupid and verging on racist Tubthumper, IMO.
You what!!!?
Aimed towards Sorgahanahataibikebiki, the one who seems to be branding all asians as savages?
Irony is not like coppery or silvery. It seems to be lost here though.
Why not report it to the mods, DH?
DeHaviLand
01-Jul-07, 19:31
I can't believe this thread has gone ballistic on conspiracy theory rejection. Surely we should be concerned about the facts of the matter, that a bomb attempt has narrowly failed in our own backyard. never mind scoring points off each other and slagging off.
Ricco, re your post above:
1. If we're talking about Iraq, they weren't knocking lumps out of each other five years ago, were they? And an economic blockade didn't work then either did it?
2. Get them all 'WHO' out? All Asian-looking people? Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists? Why stop there, why not kick out the Poles as well? Canadians? What about the Yanks - this is all their fault anyway, isn't it, with their tacit support of Israel over the Palestinian genocide and their endless striving for economic advantage...?
And then, Ricco, would we not expect some kind of backlash against all OUR types who work elsewhere? Those in the middle east making big bucks and paying no tax, those retiring to the sun, those on holiday in Thailand.
And our companies that make money out of overseas dealings. That would go down the pan too, wouldn't it?
Sorgahnteabekekibebki or whatever their name is would have to go too, surely. Which would be a bit ironic seeing as it was him that started the post.
As I said, its a big bad world out there and like it or not we are all involved. We can't be surprised when something horrible happens, although it might pain us to admit it, we don't live in a nice cosy isolated world. It doesn't always happen somewhere else.
Now you're coming across as hypocritical and moronic, IMO.
I can't believe this thread has gone ballistic on conspiracy theory rejection. Surely we should be concerned about the facts of the matter, that a bomb attempt has narrowly failed in our own backyard. never mind scoring points off each other and slagging off.
If you really are concerned surely you should be concerned that the cries of it being a conspiracy are loudest in this thread?...:roll:
sorghaghtanibeki
01-Jul-07, 19:36
Tubthumper: "Sorgahnteabekekibebki or whatever their name is would have to go too, surely. Which would be a bit ironic seeing as it was him that started the post."
sorry tubthumper, i am a her not a him and i am not foreign to me. you write ok better than freddy who iseraliphobic (speld right?) and have conspiracy theories on every thing, he is apologist for islam world?
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 19:37
If you really are concerned surely you should be concerned that the cries of it being a conspiracy are loudest in this thread?...:roll:
Perhaps you're right. My gripe was towards the general movement away from the point, which I thought was about the 'savages'.
Maybe another thread 'Glasgow Airport Bomb Attempt - Where Does That Leave Scotland's Foreign Policy' would be a better idea?
sorghaghtanibeki
01-Jul-07, 19:45
Sorry i come back so soon but Tubthumper you write: "You what!!!? Aimed towards Sorgahanahataibikebiki, the one who seems to be branding all asians as savages"
Please I wish to know where I say 'asians' please tell me as I cannot find these word, but i think any persons who try to kill are barbaic savages do you not also?
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 19:47
Tubthumper: "Sorgahnteabekekibebki or whatever their name is would have to go too, surely. Which would be a bit ironic seeing as it was him that started the post."
sorry tubthumper, i am a her not a him and i am not foreign to me. you write ok better than freddy who iseraliphobic (speld right?) and have conspiracy theories on every thing, he is apologist for islam world?
Fair enough Sorgy. A lady, then. Not foreign to you, I'm sure that's right enough. But appearing on a Scottish community website making comments about 'savages' that could be easily seen as anti-Islamic?
I was using a style of humour called 'irony' and trying to reflect the somewhat anti-foreigner viewpoint that the thread (and the London/Glasgow bomb attempts) have imbued some aspects of Scotland with.
Don't worry about not being up on the humour; it's a very subjective thing, very bad of me to use it here and anyway, some of the orgers seem to have missed it too. Or maybe I'm just not funny?
Anyway, re Fred; An Israelophobe? It's strange, but it seems to be permitted to be anti just about everything except Israel in this country, don't know why that should be. However in my book, the Israel/Palestine situation is at the root of pretty much the whole of the Middle East sitauation as currently exists.
And I don't know that the Islamic world should need apologists, or that anyone should be branded one. That sounds to me like an anti-islamic point of view?
But it might just be the language thing. Nice speaking. Sorry about the 'him' thing.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 19:53
The savages are at it again in london
Petrol, gas, nails what type of savages these people are - this in the name of their god? please read; "God is Not Great; how Religion Poisons everything" by hitchens.
Sorghaghtanibeki, my apologies for implying you'd used the term 'asians'. In the original post I now see you referred only to Moslems. My apologies.
I agree that anyone who kills (or tries to) is barbaric. Except soldiers of course.
The "point" is -
2 carbombs discovered in London - both viable. One left outside a packed nightclub.
A vehicle attempts to ram it's way into the main terminal of Glasgow airport. The passenger is seen to be throwing 'petrol bombs'. Vehicle ignites.
It appears that a terror attack has been foiled. Good luck for the UK or bad luck for the terrorists? Guess it depends on which side of the fence you sit on.
Then along come the clique of conspiracy spinners to hijack it for their own amusement.
Once more Fred, I see no condemnation of these attacks by you, do you not consider yourself a member of the UK?
I have yet so see you condem Al Qaeda or Bin Laden or any Islamic Fundamentalists and their act of terrorism no matter where they occur in the world.
Is there a reason for this? Are you a supporter?
You are quick to come in on all these forums with your conspiracy theories.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 20:11
The "point" is -
It appears that a terror attack has been foiled. Good luck for the UK or bad luck for the terrorists? Guess it depends on which side of the fence you sit on.
Being careful not to add any irony, sarcasm or whiff of conspiracy -
A bit of luck on both sides I think. Good on ours, bad on 'theirs'
However, laying aside the conspiracy theorist issue (I personally don't believe George Bush is smart enough to conspire), people don't just get up in the morning and think 'Let's kill someone', there has to be a root cause.
Care to discuss the root causes anyone?
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 20:18
Now you're coming across as hypocritical and moronic, IMO.
Perhaps. But what about the points I raised in the post, about getting shot of foreigners? Care to address those?
? That Pete Doherty is not a smackhead but a genius?
Mad Pict, thats another subject, you have brought up, but I agree there are a few subscribers on these forums that are IMO similar to the afore mentioned [disgust]
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 20:25
Mad Pict, thats another subject, you have brought up, but I agree there are a few subscribers on these forums that are IMO similar to the afore mentioned [disgust]
Smackheads or geniuses? (genii?)
Once more Fred, I see no condemnation of these attacks by you, do you not consider yourself a member of the UK?
I have yet so see you condem Al Qaeda or Bin Laden or any Islamic Fundamentalists and their act of terrorism no matter where they occur in the world.
Is there a reason for this? Are you a supporter?
You are quick to come in on all these forums with your conspiracy theories.
I don't know who to condemn. I don't know who planted the devices or why. All I've seen is media speculation about the devices being similar to some used in Iraq but I've so far seen no actual evidence of anything.
DeHaviLand
01-Jul-07, 20:29
Perhaps. But what about the points I raised in the post, about getting shot of foreigners? Care to address those?
Would that include me?
Metalattakk
01-Jul-07, 20:29
Metalattack and jeemag USA, bet you feel stupid now.[lol] "It wuz our government" blah blah. I take it the fella who jamp out of the jeep shouting Allah while swinging punches at the police worked for Brown, and was prepared to kill himself to help Brown's "publicity stunt"
Wibble.
No, I certainly don't feel stupid. My concerns about the first 'attack' still stand. Why was this 'suicide bomber' driving erratically and crashing his car into a bin at 2 a.m. when there would be much busier targets during the daytime rush-hour? It makes no sense.
In fact, if anyone should feel stupid, it's you for making words up. Tell me, what exactly does 'jamp' mean again? :roll:
Wibble on, my illiterate adversary.
DeHaviLand
01-Jul-07, 20:31
I don't know who to condemn. I don't know who planted the devices or why. All I've seen is media speculation about the devices being similar to some used in Iraq but I've so far seen no actual evidence of anything.
Why dont you start by condemning the two men who were arrested? Seems as good a place to start as any.
...crashing his car into a bin at 2 a.m. when there would be much busier targets during the daytime rush-hour? It makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense - it was at that time to avoid Congestion Charges and he was obviously texting OBL hence his poor driving...
Metalattakk
01-Jul-07, 20:43
LOL! Aye, you might be right. But then again, probably not.
I doubt Bin Laden had any knowledge of these 'attacks'. They certainly haven't been carried out with the same precision as those that preceded. In fact, there's a distinctly amateur feel to them. Thankfully.
Whoever they are - these terrorists - extremests whatever you want to call them they have made an huge impact even if these attempts have failed. London undergrounds were all closed last night. No trains running out of Victoria station this afternoon - a gridlock into London last night - all traffic stopped on the M6. The Hospital in Paisley where the terrorist was taken couldn't take any blue light patients because of suspected terrorism and controlled explosion of a car. With the best will in the world nothing will stop hatred growing against the Muslim/Asian - (or whoever the majority of the population believe is to blame) community. This is going to have a huge impact on these people and I honestly don't know what the future will hold - it is frightening.
Fred you say you don't know who to blame as you have no evidence - rightly or wrongly you are in the minority!
[disgust]
people don't just get up in the morning and think 'Let's kill someone', there has to be a root cause.
Care to discuss the root causes anyone?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problem is down to religion.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 21:03
Why dont you start by condemning the two men who were arrested? Seems as good a place to start as any.
I think you're right, whoever they were and whatever their cause. I condemn them for what they allegedly attempted to do. (It's sub-judice, I'm not getting done for compromising the legal case)
But now we get into the minefield of 'innocent till proven guilty' etc.
And like it or not that is the basis of the law in this great country of ours, so if we're dead set against anyone changing our way of life, we'd better not compromise that basic right enshrined so magnificently in the law of good old Britain.
Hi Dusty,
Religion,..money, power & greed.. misuse of religion is a tool often used by greedy people to gain power.
Karia
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 21:05
It makes perfect sense - it was at that time to avoid Congestion Charges and he was obviously texting OBL hence his poor driving...
Here, you'd better watch, folk don't like that kind of humour round here...
It's my theory - no humour.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 21:08
Hi Dusty,
Religion,..money, power & greed.. misuse of religion is a tool often used by greedy people to gain power.
Karia...and by powerful people to gain more power. Alternatively they could just be unhappy young guys sick of the way some aspect of the world was going, and acting by themselves.
Tubthumper
01-Jul-07, 21:10
It's my theory - no humour.
LO... -whoops sorry. A conspiracy against Ken Livingstone? Good as any I suppose!
Why dont you start by condemning the two men who were arrested? Seems as good a place to start as any.
Who are they?
It would appear that none of the five suspects in custody are British as has been previously suggested as a probability and therefore I must also suspect that neither they nor their parents or grand-parents were born here.
Not that I could ever see what difference that would have made.
Who are they?
They are the two who are in custody who were detained having been seen to abandon a vehicle containing an exlosive device.
There is always the possibility that the whole incident was an optical illusion, some people would like us to believe that there's a lot of that sort of thing around!
They are the two who are in custody who were detained having been seen to abandon a vehicle containing an exlosive device.
There is always the possibility that the whole incident was an optical illusion, some people would like us to believe that there's a lot of that sort of thing around!
Nah Jaws thats just a conspiracy thought up by a clique [lol]
Why dont you start by condemning the two men who were arrested? Seems as good a place to start as any.
here here!
I personally just feel very sorry for all the law abiding muslims in the country who will no doubt be suffering a nasty backlash due to the horrible evil antics of a minority of extremely wicked people :mad:
Now that I agree with completely, Corgiman.
It would appear that none of the five suspects in custody are British as has been previously suggested as a probability and therefore I must also suspect that neither they nor their parents or grand-parents were born here.
Not that I could ever see what difference that would have made.
You could be right and you could be wrong.
I've been following events closely and nowhere have I seen anyone actually say that none of the suspects are British.
DeHaviLand
01-Jul-07, 22:10
Who are they?
Just being evasive as usual Fred? Still no condemnation? How about just a general condemnation of those who who seek to kill and maim innocent women and children who dont live in war zones?
You could be right and you could be wrong.
I've been following events closely and nowhere have I seen anyone actually say that none of the suspects are British.
A slip of the keyboard here I think, it has been stated they are not "Scottish" , a slight difference
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6258758.stm
Tubthumper: "Sorgahnteabekekibebki or whatever their name is would have to go too, surely. Which would be a bit ironic seeing as it was him that started the post."
sorry tubthumper, i am a her not a him and i am not foreign to me. you write ok better than freddy who iseraliphobic (speld right?) and have conspiracy theories on every thing, he is apologist for islam world?
Me wonders if prep's you are leg pulling........
[disgust]
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the problem is down to religion.
Religion you dammed ignoramous,pardon my french, is what makes everything work.
Sorry horseman it may not be religion as it is supposed to be but these attacks from extremests are done in the name of a religion. This is something that has to be faced and addressed. Everything is not working as it should!
Just being evasive as usual Fred? Still no condemnation? How about just a general condemnation of those who who seek to kill and maim innocent women and children who dont live in war zones?
How about a general condemnation of everyone who does kill and maim innocent women and children as where they live?
Yoda the flump
01-Jul-07, 22:50
Fred, I think any right minded person would condemn the killing of innocent people, man, woman or child wherever they are living - warzone or not.
The difference here seems to be that nobody was shooting at the idiots who drove the jeep into Glasgow Airport.
Hey do these tactics sound familiar - some idiot drives a car bomb into a marketplace in Baghdad to kill the locals there...?? Now Fred, I am sure that they are not responsible for the invasion of Iraq are they? What was their crime?
Fred, I think any right minded person would condemn the killing of innocent people, man, woman or child wherever they are living - warzone or not.
Yes any right minded person would condemn the killing of innocent people, man, women or child wherever they are.
But when I mention the killing of seven innocent schoolchildren just last week nobody even knew what I was talking about because the newspapers didn't think it important enough to print.
AFAIK nobody has been killed in the recent terrorist incidents.
We seem to have a shortage of right minded people.
But when I mention the killing of seven innocent schoolchildren just last week nobody even knew what I was talking about because the newspapers didn't think it important enough to print.
The reason I never reacted to your mention of the 7 dead children is becuase it had nothing to do with the current theme on this thread.
Who do you blame for their deaths? I can guess the Americans. But IMO it is the Taliban who are to blame at firing at a helicopter from a villiage with innocent children in it, this is an old ploy and has been used as propoganda in many other parts of the world, and once more I ask you to condem Al Qaeda....but will you?
The reason I never reacted to your mention of the 7 dead children is becuase it had nothing to do with the current theme on this thread.
Who do you blame for their deaths? I can guess the Americans. But IMO it is the Taliban who are to blame at firing at a helicopter from a villiage with innocent children in it, this is an old ploy and has been used as propoganda in many other parts of the world, and once more I ask you to condem Al Qaeda....but will you?
Who are Al Qaeda?
-whitewall-
02-Jul-07, 00:00
You thought it was an exclusive club for Islamophobes and racists?
My name is fred not freddy.
If you don't have enough brains to spell a four letter word how on earth do you expect to participate in intelligent debate?
Yes and there we have it. Ok so who had message #58 as the first one to mention racism?
You really know when someone is losing the arguement when they revert to pulling up someone about spelling mistakes and accusing the same person of racism, in one post !!
-whitewall-
02-Jul-07, 00:19
No, I certainly don't feel stupid. My concerns about the first 'attack' still stand. Why was this 'suicide bomber' driving erratically and crashing his car into a bin at 2 a.m. when there would be much busier targets during the daytime rush-hour? It makes no sense.
In fact, if anyone should feel stupid, it's you for making words up. Tell me, what exactly does 'jamp' mean again? :roll:
Wibble on, my illiterate adversary.
Perhaps the fact it was slap bang outside a big nightclub around chucking out time might have something to do with it. Evidence from a previous planned attack found that a major nightclub in the west end (ministry of sound) was to be a terrorist target. If you know the area at all, it would be VERY busy between the hours 2am - 4am.
Normally I wouldnt get into childish debates about spelling mistakes, but if I were you I'd learn to spell my username correctly before registering. :lol:
Those of us with an education know its 'attack'.
Who are Al Qaeda?
Don't they supply short term replacement airline crews amongst other things.
You could be right and you could be wrong.
I've been following events closely and nowhere have I seen anyone actually say that none of the suspects are British.The latest information is that one of those in custody is possibly British. The other four are believed, at the present time , to be of foreign extraction and from countries in the middle east. Two of those in custody are Hospital Doctors working for the NHS and are here legally.
Personally I don't care where they are from or what belief system they subscribe to be it religious, political or secular, it won't change my attitude to their "alleged" intentions.
One of the Doctors, aged 26, was arrested along with his 27 year old wife on the M6 in Cheshire by police from London and the West Midlands. They had their two year old baby with them in the car when they were stopped. (I am not making any suggestion that they were putting the baby in any danger by having it with them.)
You really should pay more attention when you are "following events closely", either that or widen your sources of information.
Unless that most terrible of diseases, Convenient Selective Information Acquisition, is causing problems again.
I am, of course, assuming that the incidents in London and Glasgow really did happen and were not all a huge mass illusion.
The one thing I really regret having missed was Red Ken having to praise the Police in London. He must have choked on every single word. I hope he eventually recovers from the trauma.
I have yet so see you condem Al Qaeda or Bin Laden or any Islamic Fundamentalists and their act of terrorism no matter where they occur in the world.
That's because he condones them.
Metalattakk
02-Jul-07, 02:26
Perhaps the fact it was slap bang outside a big nightclub around chucking out time might have something to do with it. Evidence from a previous planned attack found that a major nightclub in the west end (ministry of sound) was to be a terrorist target. If you know the area at all, it would be VERY busy between the hours 2am - 4am.
Normally I wouldnt get into childish debates about spelling mistakes, but if I were you I'd learn to spell my username correctly before registering. :lol:
Those of us with an education know its 'attack'.
My username is spelled correctly, trust me. Your spelling mistake was nothing of the sort, if you remember. You have mistakenly replaced the word 'jumped' with 'jamp'. That's not bad spelling, that's just ill-educated ignorance.
However, moving on swiftly, since when was 1.30/2.00 am chucking out time at any central London nightclub? And exactly how busy would it have been? 2 or 3 hundred people on the streets? Or less? Or more? How do you know? In fact, define 'very busy'.
And again, how do you know it was a 'big' nightclub? I've neither seen nor heard of any reports concerning the capacity of said nightclub, nor whether said nightclub was packed to capacity on the night in question.
My suspicions remain.
sorghaghtanibeki
02-Jul-07, 08:14
tubthumper: "Sorghaghtanibeki, my apologies for implying you'd used the term 'asians'. In the original post I now see you referred only to Moslems. My apologies."
you are being funny? I do not mention moslemsl - please loook up book and you wil see it covers all so-called main religions :
In book, Hitchens contends that religion is "violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism, tribalism, and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children."
ok?
Normally I wouldnt get into childish debates about spelling mistakes, but if I were you I'd learn to spell my username correctly before registering. :lol:
Those of us with an education know its 'attack'.
It's his username it's spelt how he wants it spelt.
The reason I never reacted to your mention of the 7 dead children is becuase it had nothing to do with the current theme on this thread.
They have everything to do with this current theme.
The children in Afghanistan were real children, flesh and blood, they felt the pain as the shrapnel hit them, their skin burned, they screamed for help, they had real parents to mourn them.
No children were even slightly hurt in the incidents in Britain.
Why are imaginary British children more important to you than real Afghani children? If you can write off the pain and suffering of children in Afghanistan as "collateral damage", justified by the greater cause, how do you then condemn Muslims who say the same about British children?
That's because he condones them.
Thanks Rheg, I am of the same opinion
And again, how do you know it was a 'big' nightclub? I've neither seen nor heard of any reports concerning the capacity of said nightclub, nor whether said nightclub was packed to capacity on the night in question.
My suspicions remain.
From Reuters:
The bomb was found in a green Mercedes parked outside the cavernous Tiger Tiger nightclub, one of London's biggest discos, shortly after 1 a.m., when hundreds were packed inside for "Sugar 'n Spice Ladies Night" and milling about outside.
SOURCE (http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-06-29T181920Z_01_L29197797_RTRUKOC_0_UK-BRITAIN-BOMB.xml)(My emphasis)
From The Grauniad -
The busy Haymarket thoroughfare linking Piccadilly Circus in the heart of London's theater district and near Trafalgar Square, is packed with restaurants, bars, a cinema complex and West End theaters. It was packed with people at the time.
It was ladies' night Thursday at the massive Tiger Tiger nightclub, a stylish three-story venue that at full capacity can pack in 1,770 people and stays open until 3 a.m. It was here that the explosives-laded car was parked closest.
SOURCE (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6747173,00.html)
(Again my emphasis)
Is that good enough to assuage your suspicion?
All those evil sluts of women, the future bearers of yet more infidel scumdogs, an easy target for the brave warrior jihadists....*
*NOT my view but the reason that night clubs are often targeted by Islamic terrorists. So please, no cries of sexist pig...
Thanks Rheg, I am of the same opinion
Your opinions don't seem to be worth much.
Show me any post, anywhere, any time, where I have condoned the use of violence except in self defence.
Can you say the same? Can Rheghead?
Show me any post, anywhere, any time, where I have condoned the use of violence except in self defence.
Is it your view that these terror attacks on the west are justified because of the actions of the West in Iraq/Afghanistan and are a form of 'self defence'?
If it is then you condone the terrorist and their tactics.....
Your opinions don't seem to be worth much.
Show me any post, anywhere, any time, where I have condoned the use of violence except in self defence.
Can you say the same? Can Rheghead?
My opinions are as valid as anyones, and I have yet to see you condem any of these terrorist attacks, I do not condone terrorism in any fashion, but you for some reason seem to feel these attacks are justified, from your attitude on these message boards I can only come to the conclusion that you do support Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Prove me wrong if you can and I will retract
Religion you dammed ignoramous,pardon my french, is what makes everything work.
Religion my friend is what causes the problems we have been experiencing for ages. Somebody decides that what they have read in their sacred writings is literal, persuades the gullable and those that they have deliberatetly kept ignorant that that is what their religious leader has intended and participates in what they deem as justified war, jihad, crusade etc. etc. Therefore, religion IMO is a hindrance to "everything".
Basically, we kill each other to determine who has the best God - Yasser Arafat.
By the way, am I dammed because of my take on religions or for some other reason?
Ignoramus - An offensive term that deliberately insults somebody's level of intelligence or education. Hmmm.
Yoda the flump
02-Jul-07, 10:48
Your opinions don't seem to be worth much.
Show me any post, anywhere, any time, where I have condoned the use of violence except in self defence.
Can you say the same? Can Rheghead?
Fred, you are very quick to condemn the US/UK forces in Iraq/Afghanistan for what was a very tragic mistake. Obviously it was not right to kill or try to kill innocents.
Can you here and now condemn the people that drove the car into Glasgow airport for their actions and those that were involved in the two car bombing attempts in London over the weekend, regardless of what the 'motive' of theses people were.
Is it your view that these terror attacks on the west are justified because of the actions of the West in Iraq/Afghanistan and are a form of 'self defence'?
If it is then you condone the terrorist and their tactics.....
As I have said, I don't know who committed these terrorist attacks or why they committed them so I couldn't hold that view.
Typical fred answer - skirt around the question without answering it. How long will it take before fred actually uses the words "I unreservedly condemn the attacks by Islamic extremists on western/eastern targets"?
My guess is never.
Fred, you are very quick to condemn the US/UK forces in Iraq/Afghanistan for what was a very tragic mistake. Obviously it was not right to kill or try to kill innocents.
Can you here and now condemn the people that drove the car into Glasgow airport for their actions and those that were involved in the two car bombing attempts in London over the weekend, regardless of what the 'motive' of theses people were.
I condemn all violence except in self defence.
What makes you think our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were mistakes?
How do you accidentally invade and occupy a country?
How do you condone the misery we have caused to millions of Iraqis by labelling it a "mistake"?
I'm reading about between 50 and 100 dead Iraqis every day and have been for over four years, I'm reading about dead civilians in Afghanistan every day, our government blocked a UN resolution to stop the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon long enough for them to flatten Beirut and drop enough cluster bombs to kill and maim Lebanese children for decades to come.
You justify all that with "mistake" then claim those responsible for the attacks in London and Glasgow are everything evil under the sun?
Typical fred answer - skirt around the question without answering it. How long will it take before fred actually uses the words "I unreservedly condemn the attacks by Islamic extremists on western/eastern targets"?
My guess is never.
I have condemned all violence except in self defence.
Will you?
My opinions are as valid as anyones, and I have yet to see you condem any of these terrorist attacks, I do not condone terrorism in any fashion, but you for some reason seem to feel these attacks are justified, from your attitude on these message boards I can only come to the conclusion that you do support Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Prove me wrong if you can and I will retract
I asked you who Al Qaeda are and you didn't answer.
I know who Bin Laden is, his family and the Bush family are long standing business partners, I have no problem condemning all of them.
Do you condemn Bush as well? Or do you only condemn coloured people?
I have condemned all violence except in self defence.
Will you?
One man's "self defence' is another man's act of aggression/terrorism.
Is he a terrorist? Why no, he is a freedom fighter...
One man's "self defence' is another man's act of aggression/terrorism.
Is he a terrorist? Why no, he is a freedom fighter...
I thought not.
I am only doing what you do fred.........
I asked you who Al Qaeda are and you didn't answer.
I know who Bin Laden is, his family and the Bush family are long standing business partners, I have no problem condemning all of them.
Do you condemn Bush as well? Or do you only condemn coloured people?
Al-Qaeda is an international alliance of militant Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) jihadist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad) organizations. Its roots can be traced back to Osama bin Laden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden) and others around the time of the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989. Al-Qaeda is listed as a terrorist organization by the majority of the worlds nations.
Is that good enough for you Fred? And I consider you remarks about my opinions of coloured people offensive, I also have condemed the IRA, the UDA, Eta, Bader Meinhof, Brigate Rossi. How dare you presume I am racist [evil]
Lolabelle
02-Jul-07, 11:51
please read; "God is Not Great; how Religion Poisons everything" by hitchens.
No thanks, it isn't God who does these things it is man. They may do it in His name, but don't blame him.
Oh and by the way, he is Great.
Boozeburglar
02-Jul-07, 13:02
Fred,
I wonder if some of the time you spend 'campaigning' on this message board might be more effectively spent involved in real world campaigning?
No criticism intended, but the Caithness.Org message boards are not really a conduit for real world change. It is just a wee forum wherein lies the possibility of changing a few opinions through the use of consistent and reasoned debate, and you don't seem to be achieving that with any regularity.
So much time and energy has to be worth investing for the benefit of the people you are so concerned for?
Just a thought,
;)
Metalattakk
02-Jul-07, 13:23
Is that good enough to assuage your suspicion?
MadPict: - Yes, I suppose it is. Thank you. :cool:
Penelope Pitstop
02-Jul-07, 14:45
The attacker who emerged on fire from the jeep will no doubt be getting the best of treatment in the local hospital....doing someone else out of treatment. [evil] (This guy is allegedly a Doctor who was a locum for the NHS....OMG.)
Penelope Pitstop
02-Jul-07, 14:50
Fred,
Have you taken up Boozeburglars advice and started campaigning on another forum/web page????:lol:
...................scroll down to comments??
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article1426.html
sorghaghtanibeki
02-Jul-07, 17:08
Lolabelle you quote: Originally Posted by sorghaghtanibeki (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=236591#post236591)
please read; "God is Not Great; how Religion Poisons everything" by hitchens.
You write: No thanks, it isn't God who does these things it is man. They may do it in His name, but don't blame him.
Oh and by the way, he is Great.
Lolabelle you prove my point exactly
Freddy, it is muslim (sunni) killing Muslim (shiite) that you are for counting each day
Al-Qaeda is an international alliance of militant Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) jihadist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad) organizations. Its roots can be traced back to Osama bin Laden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden) and others around the time of the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan in 1989. Al-Qaeda is listed as a terrorist organization by the majority of the worlds nations.
Is that good enough for you Fred? And I consider you remarks about my opinions of coloured people offensive, I also have condemed the IRA, the UDA, Eta, Bader Meinhof, Brigate Rossi. How dare you presume I am racist [evil]
No that isn't good enough, on 9/11 within an hour the words Al Qaeda was being bandied about on the TV news and I honestly don't think there was time for any sort of an investigation, same with the recent incidents in London and Glasgow, right away the words Al Qaeda in every headline. Whenever there is insurgent activity in Iraq it is blamed on Al Qaeda and whenever innocent people get killed they were always suspected Al Qaeda.
I don't even know if Al Qaeda actually exists any more, or if it ever did as anything more than just a list of names. In any case I would not condemn an entire organisation for what some members do and more than I would condemn the entire British Army for the atrocities some have committed.
Seeing as you mentioned the IRA there was an interesting book (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article742783.ece) out last year written by a British soldier who was recruited to infiltrate the IRA. I have to wonder if the same tactics are being used by our government now as they used then.
You will condemn the IRA but you won't condemn those in the 1st Battalion of the British Parachute Regiment responsible for killing innocent protesters. You will condemn Bin Laden yet you will not condemn Bush who has caused infinitely more death and destruction, murdered millions. Will you join me now in condemning the Zionists responsible for the theft of Palestine and the oppression of the Palestinian people? The Zionists are by definition a racist organisation. Will you condemn Bush and Blair for their illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq?
They bloke who hosed down the perpetrator with out knowing what was in the Jeep was brave beyond belief. One person prepared to die to kill. One prepared to die to save a life. There was a post recently of who is your hero. There is one!!
Only took 8 pages to get onto Zionism.......
Yoda the flump
02-Jul-07, 19:29
I condemn all violence except in self defence.
What makes you think our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were mistakes?
How do you accidentally invade and occupy a country?
How do you condone the misery we have caused to millions of Iraqis by labelling it a "mistake"?
I'm reading about between 50 and 100 dead Iraqis every day and have been for over four years, I'm reading about dead civilians in Afghanistan every day, our government blocked a UN resolution to stop the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon long enough for them to flatten Beirut and drop enough cluster bombs to kill and maim Lebanese children for decades to come.
You justify all that with "mistake" then claim those responsible for the attacks in London and Glasgow are everything evil under the sun?
Ah , so I was not as clear as I might have been Fred but you have had a chance to have a rant. I was actually talking about the killing of innocent bystanders and not the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan, which were very obviously not mistakes.
But ask yourself this Fred, do these 'insurgents' in Afghanistan and Iraq hold some responsibility for the casualties inflicted by deliberately placing themselves in civilian areas?
Did I suggest that the people who carried out the attacks in London were evil? No I called them idiots which is what they are.
Jeemag_USA
02-Jul-07, 19:39
the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan, which were very obviously not mistakes.
You have got to be kidding, almost everyone these days would admit to Iraq being a mistake by now, if you're not so far you will eventually. I wasn't aware it was so cut and dry these were obviously the right things to do?
Yoda the flump
02-Jul-07, 19:40
Only took 8 pages to get onto Zionism.......
Now where have we heard that little line trotted out before?
Yoda the flump
02-Jul-07, 19:42
You have got to be kidding, almost everyone these days would admit to Iraq being a mistake by now, if you're not so far you will eventually. I wasn't aware it was so cut and dry these were obviously the right things to do?
Jeemag, I'm doing it again, what I mean is that they were deliberate actions, I was not taking about the political or other fallout.
percy toboggan
02-Jul-07, 22:07
Savages they are but there is a lot to be said about western countries interfeering with the middle east affairs if the uk disengaged from middle east affairs this type of terrosim would stop
Naive garbage at that.
These people want to Islamify the world. Their book, and the way they interpret it tells 'em to do it.
Islam needs a period of enlightenment led by the moderates who just seem to melt away into the background. The silent majority? I'm not so sure.
Also, the conspiracy theorists are just plain stupid and unable to face reality. Get a grip.
Freddy, it is muslim (sunni) killing Muslim (shiite) that you are for counting each day
I just count people.
Lolabelle
02-Jul-07, 23:08
Lolabelle you prove my point exactly
How is that exactly? :confused
The simple truth is that we are considered to live in Dar ul-Kufr (the Land of Unbelief). The Islamic Extremists (who are, as with any other belief system, be it religious or political, a very tiny minority) believe it is their duty to turn any such place into Dar ul-Islam (the Land of Islam). They are quite happy to turn such places into Dar ul-Harb (a Land of War) to achieve their aims. This is not just in Britain and America, as some would have us believe, but in many other Countries including some Muslim Countries who they see as not being Muslim enough for their liking.
As with any such extremists they will use any kind of excuse which suits their purpose.
Then there are the politically minded fellow-travellers who are willing to jump on any Terrorist Bandwagon and use it for their own ends in an attempt to transfer the blame for terrorism from the Terrorists to the Authorities.
“If the Authorities hadn’t done (insert whatever excuse the terrorists are using as a reason) then there would be no Terrorism. It’s all the fault of the Authorities.”
Part of this tactic involves trying to indicate that any act of terrorism has not been actually carried out by Terrorists but has been set up by the Authorities either as an excuse to exert control and oppression or to demonise some group or other.
Their intention is to show that the problems can only be solved by overthrowing the current Authority and replacing it by one supported by the fellow-travellers.
Terrorism is like the Pied Piper to them, whatever tunes it plays they will follow it in the hope it will lead them to power whilst pontificating about how terrible it is that Terrorists have been driven to such extremes.
In effect all they succeed in doing is to show that they accept that unless they can succeed in spreading such disaffection with the current system they will continue to be seen as the out of touch people that they really are.
Jaws, you have well defined the leadership of terrorism. There are any number of reasons why hate and anger and selfishness exist in our world. I am not sure that we can do anything about the unhealthy space such people occupy.
But at the next level of unrest are those people with legitimate protests against political/economic/social/legal injustice. And it becomes very easy for unhealthy (usually charismatic) leaders to prey on the energies of disaffected peoples as they attempt to have their honest causes heard. Perhaps, we as people of wealth, education and voice can somehow work with this truly abused level of society to address some of the inequities which become the motivation factor for this second tier of disruptive support.
Not for one minute do I support or justify terrorism. I am concerned that it has the success it has because of inequities which we have either created or support.
The simple truth is that we are considered to live in Dar ul-Kufr (the Land of Unbelief). The Islamic Extremists (who are, as with any other belief system, be it religious or political, a very tiny minority) believe it is their duty to turn any such place into Dar ul-Islam (the Land of Islam). They are quite happy to turn such places into Dar ul-Harb (a Land of War) to achieve their aims. This is not just in Britain and America, as some would have us believe, but in many other Countries including some Muslim Countries who they see as not being Muslim enough for their liking.
As with any such extremists they will use any kind of excuse which suits their purpose.
Other countries?
I don't recall Muslim terrorist attacks in Eire and they are a Catholic state.
Just coincidence that we have been invading and occupying Muslim countries? The terrorist attacks have nothing to do with us having armed troops on the streets of Iraq and Afghanistan it's because they hate our freedom.
It never ceases to amaze me the rubbish people will believe because they want to. People on this forum were spouting the same wishful thinking after 7/7 but the inquiry found that the attacks were motivated by our invasion of Iraq.
©Amethyst
03-Jul-07, 08:31
I won't name names here but I want to ask some of you to consider stop acting like children.
As to a post I read about Crime rates in Westminster before - obviously you have no idea of the types of measures that there are in place there to combat such attacks... whereas the police up here are more reactive than proactive. Makes you wonder - a friend of mine was recently attacked with a baseball bat - maybe she'd have been safer walking around Lisson Grove at 3am!
Fred,
I wonder if some of the time you spend 'campaigning' on this message board might be more effectively spent involved in real world campaigning?
And I wonder if the time people spend thinking about and posting about me on this forum wouldn't be better spent thinking about what has happened and why.
©Amethyst
03-Jul-07, 08:47
And I wonder if the time people spend thinking about and posting about me on this forum wouldn't be better spent thinking about what has happened and why.
I wonder if the time Fred spends thinking and posting silly things wouldn't be better spent thinking about keeping peace instead of trying to cause arguments.
Only took 8 pages to get onto Zionism.......
Didn't know one of the alleged terrorists was Lebanese before.
But ask yourself this Fred, do these 'insurgents' in Afghanistan and Iraq hold some responsibility for the casualties inflicted by deliberately placing themselves in civilian areas?
If 'insurgents' kill innocent civilians while attacking our troops is that our troops fault for being in a civilian area?
Just received this in an e-mail....
I think it was to do with passenger profiling originally.
I don't know who made this up but it makes you think
Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice test. (The events are from recent past history?)
1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
-
--a. Olga Corbitt
--b. Sitting Bull
--c. Arnold Schwartzeneger
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
2. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
--a. Lost Norwegians
--b. Elvis
--c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
--a. John Dillinger
--b. The King of Sweden
--c. The Boy Scouts
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
4. In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
--a. A pizza delivery boy
--b. Pee Wee Herman
--c. Kylie Minoque
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
5. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
--a. The Smurfs
--b. Davy Jones & The Monkees
--c. The Little Mermaid
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
6. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
--a. Captain Kid
--b. Charles Lindberg
--c. Mother Teresa
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
--a. Scooby Doo
--b. The Tooth Fairy
--c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
8. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
--a. Meatloaf
--b. Grandma Moses
--c. Michael Jordan
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
9. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
--a. Tarzan
--b. Hillary Clinton (to distract attention from Wild Bill' s women
problems)
--c. The World Wrestling Federation
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
10. On 11 September 2001 four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted to a crash by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:
--a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
--b. The Supreme Court of Florida
--c. Mr. Bean
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
11. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
--a. Lawrence of Arabia
--b. The Lutheran Church
--c. The NFL
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
12. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
--a. Bonny and Clyde
--b. Ned Kelly
--c. Billy Graham
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
13. In 2002 the Sari Nightclub in Kuta Beach, Bali, was blown up killing 189 young mainly Australian tourists by:
--a . The "Bundy" Polar Bear
--b. Ho Chi Minh
--c. Paul Keating
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
14. In March 2004 were a series of coordinated bombings against the commuter train system of Madrid, which killed 192 people and wounded 2,050 by:-
--a. The Gypsy Kings.
--b. A Flamenco dance Troupe from Ibiza.
--c. British Male lager lout tourists, with beer bellys, caught singing the Tweetie Song on the train up from Malaga.
--d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
15. In July 2004, three London Underground trains and one London Bus were suicide bombed by:
--a. The Spice girls
--b. The Beatles
--c. The Four Tops
--d. 4 "British" Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
16. In June 2007, a car, laden with gas canisters is rammed into a crowded Glasgow Airport by:
--a. Rab C Nesbitt
--b. The Krankies
--c. Arthur C Clarke
--d. 2 “British” Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
Yoda the flump
03-Jul-07, 13:15
If 'insurgents' kill innocent civilians while attacking our troops is that our troops fault for being in a civilian area?
Surely it is their fault for attacking the troops Fred, if they cared for the country and local population surely they would try to minimise civilian caualties themselves, keep the fighting to a minimum by keeping out of these areas instead of occupying them
You have already stated that violence in self defence is legitimate, so if a US squad are fired on by insurgents and they return fire and civilians get killed in the crossfire who is responsible, by your reckoning the US troops should not have been there, but they were justified to return fire.
Surely it is their fault for attacking the troops Fred, if they cared for the country and local population surely they would try to minimise civilian caualties themselves, keep the fighting to a minimum by keeping out of these areas instead of occupying them
So let me see if I understand what you're saying here. If our troops are shooting at insurgents and kill some civilians then it's the insurgents fault for being in a civilian area but if insurgents are firing at our troops and kill some civilians that's the insurgents fault for firing at our troops?
You have already stated that violence in self defence is legitimate, so if a US squad are fired on by insurgents and they return fire and civilians get killed in the crossfire who is responsible, by your reckoning the US troops should not have been there, but they were justified to return fire.
The insurgents are defending their country, we are the ones who invaded illegally when Iraq was no threat to us whatsoever, we could pull out and give them their country back any time. They live there, they are defending their homeland, we have no right to be there at all.
I mean if an armed gang broke into your house to steal your family silver I don't think they could shoot you then claim self defence.
Just received this in an e-mail....
I think it was to do with passenger profiling originally.
I don't know who made this up but it makes you think
No it doesn't, it is a deliberately one sided account so you can believe what you want to believe and ignore what you don't. A typical ploy of those trying to stir up racial hatred.
I could do exactly the same for the British, the Americans, the Israelis, especially the Israelis.
and so onto fred's bete noire.........
The attacker who emerged on fire from the jeep will no doubt be getting the best of treatment in the local hospital....doing someone else out of treatment. [evil] (This guy is allegedly a Doctor who was a locum for the NHS....OMG.)
Yes, this attacker is being treated in the Royal Alexandria Hospital Paisley where the other attacker in the jeep was a locum in the hospital and now being sent down to London from the Govan high security police station. Between the car bombs found in the car park and the hospital area cordon off and people in the houses round about having to leave their homes also visitors who have not seen their very ill families for days. I know this is all for their own security.
This is the kind of upheavel and upset the attackers cause innocent people to suffer. What is this all costing the NHS and the country on extra secruity policing services. Surely we have a better intelligance service than to allow so many locum doctors to work in our hospitals with intent on terrorism allegedly until proven guilty or not guilty
Other countries?
I don't recall Muslim terrorist attacks in Eire and they are a Catholic state.
Just coincidence that we have been invading and occupying Muslim countries? The terrorist attacks have nothing to do with us having armed troops on the streets of Iraq and Afghanistan it's because they hate our freedom.
Indonesia is a mainly Muslim Country and I seem to remember attacks by Muslim Extremists there. I don't recall Indonesia invading Iraq or Afghanistan, unless the neo-con controlled media have been keeping us in the dark about it that is.
India has not invaded Iraq or Afghanistan and there have been attacks by Muslim Extremists there also. How about Malaysia?
Sudan, Ethiopia, Morocco, Egypt, Somalia, all involved in “invading Iraq and Afghanistan”?
There are many more Countries which are neither Christian, involved in "invading" Muslim Countries or allies of the "Great Western anti-Muslim Imperialist Warmongers". (I think that is how you wish to portray anybody associated with America) Which have been targeted fanatical Muslim Fundamentalist Extremists.
Oh, I almost forgot, you are absolutely right fred, they haven’t targeted Eire. They haven’t targeted Easter Island either despite the Christian connotations in it’s name, whatever that proves.
Of course, none of the above fit in with your blinkered anti-Anglo-American propaganda.
Religion my friend is what causes the problems we have been experiencing for ages. Somebody decides that what they have read in their sacred writings is literal, persuades the gullable and those that they have deliberatetly kept ignorant that that is what their religious leader has intended and participates in what they deem as justified war, jihad, crusade etc. etc. Therefore, religion IMO is a hindrance to "everything".
Basically, we kill each other to determine who has the best God - Yasser Arafat.
By the way, am I dammed because of my take on religions or for some other reason?
Ignoramus - An offensive term that deliberately insults somebody's level of intelligence or education. Hmmm.
dusty,I am so sorry for that pig ignorant post of mine.It was unwarranted and unjustified.Where it came from, I just don't know,but thinking about it today,made me feel real bad.So here's my grovel an hope you won't think to badly of me.
Indonesia is a mainly Muslim Country and I seem to remember attacks by Muslim Extremists there. I don't recall Indonesia invading Iraq or Afghanistan, unless the neo-con controlled media have been keeping us in the dark about it that is.
India has not invaded Iraq or Afghanistan and there have been attacks by Muslim Extremists there also. How about Malaysia?
Sudan, Ethiopia, Morocco, Egypt, Somalia, all involved in “invading Iraq and Afghanistan”?
There are many more Countries which are neither Christian, involved in "invading" Muslim Countries or allies of the "Great Western anti-Muslim Imperialist Warmongers". (I think that is how you wish to portray anybody associated with America) Which have been targeted fanatical Muslim Fundamentalist Extremists.
Oh, I almost forgot, you are absolutely right fred, they haven’t targeted Eire. They haven’t targeted Easter Island either despite the Christian connotations in it’s name, whatever that proves.
Of course, none of the above fit in with your blinkered anti-Anglo-American propaganda.
As usual your logic in non existent.
Five weeks before we invaded Iraq our security services warned Blair that it would greatly increase the risk of terrorist attacks in Britain.
We, a Christian country, invade Iraq, a Muslim country.
Terrorist incidents increase in Britain as predicted.
All the terrorist bombs in the world would not convert one Christian to Islam, what it will do is affect the British withdrawal of troops from Iraq.
sorghaghtanibeki
03-Jul-07, 19:34
freddy
i start this thread in discussing the savages who attempt to blow up London and Glasgow, please how do you manage to bring Israel into it all the time? can'ot you leave these jews to live in peace - please start another thred if you want to talk about Israel, do you dislike them?
freddy:
#127 our government blocked a UN resolution to stop the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon long enough for them to flatten Beirut and drop enough cluster bombs to kill and maim Lebanese children for decades to come
#141 Will you join me now in condemning the Zionists responsible for the theft of Palestine and the oppression of the Palestinian people? The Zionists are by definition a racist organisation
#162 I could do exactly the same for the British, the Americans, the Israelis, especially the Israelis.
and: #98 I've been following events closely and nowhere have I seen anyone actually say that none of the suspects are British.
beki
No it doesn't, it is a deliberately one sided account so you can believe what you want to believe and ignore what you don't. A typical ploy of those trying to stir up racial hatred.
I could do exactly the same for the British, the Americans, the Israelis, especially the Israelis.
But Fred the list that Dusty sent all happened before the so called invasions of Iraq....so how can you justify the reasons for these incedents that Dusty very kindly reminded us of. It cannot have been Iraq that drove these Muslim Fundamentalists could it.
freddy
i start this thread in discussing the savages who attempt to blow up London and Glasgow,
No you didn't, you titled it "The savages are at it again" when the identity of those responsible, or if they had previously taken part in terrorist attacks, was not known.
I can only conclude that the "savages" you were referring to were the entire Islamic people.
please how do you manage to bring Israel into it all the time? can'ot you leave these jews to live in peace - please start another thred if you want to talk about Israel, do you dislike them?
Israel is very much involved, one of those arrested was Lebanese which makes the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon and Britain's part in it a prime motive. Do you have any particular attachment to Zionism or do you support all racist organisations?
But Fred the list that Dusty sent all happened before the so called invasions of Iraq....so how can you justify the reasons for these incedents that Dusty very kindly reminded us of. It cannot have been Iraq that drove these Muslim Fundamentalists could it.
Iraq wasn't the first time the West has oppressed the people of the Middle East, we've been doing it for centuries. Look through your history books, it's hard to find a time we weren't killing Muslims to make westerners wealthy.
sorghaghtanibeki
03-Jul-07, 21:50
Fred: "Israel is very much involved, one of those arrested was Lebanese which makes the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon and Britain's part in it a prime motive"
this is logic?
Yoda the flump
03-Jul-07, 22:51
Iraq wasn't the first time the West has oppressed the people of the Middle East, we've been doing it for centuries. Look through your history books, it's hard to find a time we weren't killing Muslims to make westerners wealthy.
And I believe that if you look through the same books they will show that Muslims have been trying to do the same to Europeans - or does the Ottoman Empire not count as Muslim?
Jeemag_USA
03-Jul-07, 22:56
Iraq wasn't the first time the West has oppressed the people of the Middle East, we've been doing it for centuries. Look through your history books, it's hard to find a time we weren't killing Muslims to make westerners wealthy.
During the twelth century the Knights Templar were a rogue force in a land that had nothing to do with them, often vastly outnumbered they used terrorist tactics to defeat their foe. They were fanatical and trained constantly so they could keep trade routes open back to the west so they could send people back with all the stuff they stole to their banks in Europe. Go back to then and start reading forward. Nobody in this world is innocent. I don't abide with violence in any way but I do understand fully why there is hatred on both sides but unfortunately most people who don't take the time to study centuries of failed foreign policy just think people should do what they are told. Christianity and Catholicism were built on fanatacism and in may countries acros southern Europe, Africa and the middle east you either turned or were put to the sword. The Romans were no different to the Christians and the Christians no different to the Muslims, all used the same tactic it was obey or blood would run. It woudl be nice to think all that disappears with time but it doesn't, it never stopped. Even the Jews had vigilante extremist groups in their day that had their own enclaves they fought from.
Yoda the flump
03-Jul-07, 22:56
So let me see if I understand what you're saying here. If our troops are shooting at insurgents and kill some civilians then it's the insurgents fault for being in a civilian area but if insurgents are firing at our troops and kill some civilians that's the insurgents fault for firing at our troops?
The insurgents are defending their country, we are the ones who invaded illegally when Iraq was no threat to us whatsoever, we could pull out and give them their country back any time. They live there, they are defending their homeland, we have no right to be there at all.
I mean if an armed gang broke into your house to steal your family silver I don't think they could shoot you then claim self defence.
What is the point in discussing things with you? Are you playing Devils Advocate?
What is the point in discussing things with you? Are you playing Devils Advocate?
No, you are.
During the twelth century the Knights Templar were a rogue force in a land that had nothing to do with them, often vastly outnumbered they used terrorist tactics to defeat their foe. They were fanatical and trained constantly so they could keep trade routes open back to the west so they could send people back with all the stuff they stole to their banks in Europe. Go back to then and start reading forward. Nobody in this world is innocent. I don't abide with violence in any way but I do understand fully why there is hatred on both sides but unfortunately most people who don't take the time to study centuries of failed foreign policy just think people should do what they are told. Christianity and Catholicism were built on fanatacism and in may countries acros southern Europe, Africa and the middle east you either turned or were put to the sword. The Romans were no different to the Christians and the Christians no different to the Muslims, all used the same tactic it was obey or blood would run. It woudl be nice to think all that disappears with time but it doesn't, it never stopped. Even the Jews had vigilante extremist groups in their day that had their own enclaves they fought from.
Wow Fred brought in the Zionists.....now we have the Free Masons, I suspect a clique here
Jeemag_USA
03-Jul-07, 23:10
Wow Fred brought in the Zionists.....now we have the Free Masons, I suspect a clique here
Knights Templar were not Free Masons, glad I gave you something to do though, sorry you had to wait so long [lol]
Knights Templar were an order of Knights, in the early days you had to be a knight to join, unless you came in as a serf to help with armour and horses, almost exclusively all Knights Templar were from landed gentry and were titled landholders which they have to give up on joining. The Knights Templar were pretty much wiped out at the end of the 12th century, earliest evidence of Freemasonoray is arround the 1600's and there is no evidence of Freemasons conquering foreign lands so you are completely off track. The only link is the fact that Free Masons use the image of Solomons temple in some o their emblems and some say their aim is to rebuild Solomons Temple and of course they may or may not be trying to keep alive some things the Knights Templar were doing or ideals they had I guess only they know. At the time when the Knights Templar were crusading and sacking the Holy Lands in pursuit of treasure and holy objects there was no such thing as a Freemason, except the blokes who were handy with bricks and were not slaves ;)
Knights Templar were not Free Masons, glad I gave you something to do though, sorry you had to wait so long [lol]
Beg to differ, its a well known fact, but this is another thread not on the level
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/ScottishKT.htm
Yoda the flump
03-Jul-07, 23:20
No, you are.
Ahem, no, no I don't think I am
Jeemag_USA
03-Jul-07, 23:28
Beg to differ, its a well known fact, but this is another thread not on the level
http://www.rosslyntemplars.org.uk/ScottishKT.htm
Sorry your wrong. The Knights Templar had nothing to do with Freemasonry, maybe some centuries later the Freemasons have something to do with King Solomons Temple, but I am right in what I am saying. There were no Freemasons in the MIddle East during the crusades of the Twelth Century, I made no mention of them so don't understand why you are quoting them, no wait a minute, knowing you I do understand :L
Like I said, THE Knights Templar were not Freemasons.
The chapel, built 150 years after the dissolution of the Knights Templar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar), supposedly has many Templar symbols, such as the "Two riders on a single horse" that appear on the Seal of the Knights Templar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar_seals). The layout of the chapel is cited as echoing the layout of the Temple of Solomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Solomon).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosslyn_Chapel#_note-secrets)
It is claimed that other carvings in the chapel reflect Masonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry) imagery, such as the way that hands are placed in various figures. One carving shows a blindfolded man being led forward with a noose around his neck -- similar to the way a candidate is prepared for the initiation ceremony of Freemasonry. However, the chapel was built in the 1400s, and the Freemasons were not officially founded until 1717 according to the official records of the United Grand Lodge of England
oldmarine
04-Jul-07, 02:29
You thought it was an exclusive club for Islamophobes and racists?
My name is fred not freddy.
If you don't have enough brains to spell a four letter word how on earth do you expect to participate in intelligent debate?
Ouch!!! some one must have hit a raw nerve.
oldmarine
04-Jul-07, 02:36
Once more Fred, I see no condemnation of these attacks by you, do you not consider yourself a member of the UK?
I have yet so see you condem Al Qaeda or Bin Laden or any Islamic Fundamentalists and their act of terrorism no matter where they occur in the world.
Is there a reason for this? Are you a supporter?
You are quick to come in on all these forums with your conspiracy theories.
Golach, Fred has been going on like this for a long time now. Haven't you figured him yet? Isn't it possible that Fred is a strong supporter of Al Qaeda or Bin Ladin or any other Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist? I have suspected him for a long time now just by his posts.
Jeemag_USA
04-Jul-07, 02:38
Thanks oldmarine for your invaluable input to this thread, you seem to have cleared up the whole subject with your amazing insight :roll:
oldmarine
04-Jul-07, 02:42
I personally just feel very sorry for all the law abiding muslims in the country who will no doubt be suffering a nasty backlash due to the horrible evil antics of a minority of extremely wicked people :mad:
Here, here. There are many innocent and law abiding Islamic/Muslims all over the world who have tried to get away from the problems of Bin Laden and his cohorts.
oldmarine
04-Jul-07, 02:45
How about a general condemnation of everyone who does kill and maim innocent women and children as where they live?
Like Bin Laden and his cohorts?
oldmarine
04-Jul-07, 02:48
Who are Al Qaeda?
You should know. Don't you defend them?
Like Bin Laden and his cohorts?
Everyone who murders innocent women and children be they in the Saudi ruling classes, the American ruling classes or the United States Marine Corps (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/).
I have no problem condemning all of you.
With the revelation that these suspects are all doctors or hospital staff, the whole situation takes a sinister turn. Previously, terrorists have been portrayed as fanatics, fired up by racism, poverty and religious belief.
These are intelligent individuals who have vowed to preserve life using skills learned over many years and who are paid generously, by us, for these skills. Rightly or wrongly we give doctors a "god like" position in our society - for them to betray that trust is unforgivable.I pray that this is a unique and isolated incident.
Everyone who murders innocent women and children be they in the Saudi ruling classes, the American ruling classes or the United States Marine Corps (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/).
I have no problem condemning all of you.
What about these deaths? I am not going to trawl the internet for more, but this is just an example that Muslims are killing Muslims too
http://www.getfinest.com/breaking_news/815.asp
What about these deaths? I am not going to trawl the internet for more, but this is just an example that Muslims are killing Muslims too
Yes everyone is killing everyone because everyone deludes themselves that killing in the name of their God and country is good and killing in the name of any other God and country is evil. They all think up excuses why it's all right for them to kill others but not for others to kill them.
Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl worked out that there are two types of people in the world, good people and bad people and that they both exist in every country, creed or social class in the world.
When people like you care as much about real children being killed in Afghanistan as imaginary children in Glasgow the killing will end.
Ahh, but would the people in Afghanistan give two hoots if children had died in Glasgow airport? After all it was full of families starting their holidays.
No.
And I suspect a good few of them would be dancing in celebration in the streets - remember the images as the news of 9/11 reached the Muslim world? People dancing for joy.
Do you see such images of westerners rejoicing on the streets of London or Glasgow at the deaths of Muslims?
No.
And "people like you" don't go out and strap bombs on themselves and walk into mosques or market places.
But then in fredworld such action is justified because they are "defending themselves".......
Unbelievable......
Ahh, but would the people in Afghanistan give two hoots if children had died in Glasgow airport? After all it was full of families starting their holidays.
Yes there will be people in Afghanistan who care about all children of the world, there are good and bad in every country.
dusty,I am so sorry for that pig ignorant post of mine.It was unwarranted and unjustified.Where it came from, I just don't know,but thinking about it today,made me feel real bad.So here's my grovel an hope you won't think to badly of me.
Horseman,
I don't think badly of you at all for the comment, so don't beat yourself up about it. We are all entitled to voice our thoughts and anyway you railed against my comment, not me.
I think that the fact that you thought an apology might be warranted and took the time to offer one speaks volumes about the real you.
:) Pals?
Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl worked out that there are two types of people in the world, good people and bad people and that they both exist in every country, creed or social class in the world.
When people like you care as much about real children being killed in Afghanistan as imaginary children in Glasgow the killing will end.
Of course I care about the world children that goes without saying, and if the Taliban war lords want to use Afghan children as shields for their brave warriors, there is not a lot I can do about it, neither could I help Viktor Frankl in 1941 when he was interned by the Nazi's, these are casualties of war, and as you brought up the good Dr Frankl, can I ask as he was an Austrian Jew, he therefore must have been a Zionist that you advocate against with fervor
Of course I care about the world children that goes without saying, and if the Taliban war lords want to use Afghan children as shields for their brave warriors, there is not a lot I can do about it, neither could I help Viktor Frankl in 1941 when he was interned by the Nazi's, these are casualties of war, and as you brought up the good Dr Frankl, can I ask as he was an Austrian Jew, he therefore must have been a Zionist that you advocate against with fervor
There are no Taliban war lords.
Not all Jews were Zionists by a very long way they were very much a minority. Zionism is against the teachings of the Torah which says that God will lead the Children of Israel to the promised land, not a bunch of rich power crazed bankers, and it will happen with the coming of the Messiah. Zionism was considered heresy by all Orthodox and the majority of Reform Jews.
Horseman,
I don't think badly of you at all for the comment, so don't beat yourself up about it. We are all entitled to voice our thoughts and anyway you railed against my comment, not me.
I think that the fact that you thought an apology might be warranted and took the time to offer one speaks volumes about the real you.
:) Pals?
Very well said dusty,yes please.:D
©Amethyst
04-Jul-07, 22:41
with out knowing what was in the Jeep was brave beyond belief.
Don't defending the idiot that drove into Glasgow Airport at all, but how can someone be brave without knowing what was in the Jeep?
As usual your logic in non existent.
Five weeks before we invaded Iraq our security services warned Blair that it would greatly increase the risk of terrorist attacks in Britain.
We, a Christian country, invade Iraq, a Muslim country.
Terrorist incidents increase in Britain as predicted.
All the terrorist bombs in the world would not convert one Christian to Islam, what it will do is affect the British withdrawal of troops from Iraq. I repeat,
Indonesia is a mainly Muslim Country and I seem to remember attacks by Muslim Extremists there. I don't recall Indonesia invading Iraq or Afghanistan, unless the neo-con controlled media have been keeping us in the dark about it that is.
India has not invaded Iraq or Afghanistan and there have been attacks by Muslim Extremists there also. How about Malaysia?
Sudan, Ethiopia, Morocco, Egypt, Somalia, all involved in “invading Iraq and Afghanistan”?
And Islamic Fundamentalists exploding bombs and slaughtering people in those countries and in many others in South East Asia is intended to cause the withdrawal of British Troops from Iraq? Of course it is why else would it be?
Strange that they were carrying out such attacks long before the war in Iraq or the UN backed invasion of Afghanistan.
The only thing which lacks logic, fred, is your obsession that every evil in the world is caused by Britain and America.
You may have convinced yourself that it is the case but the only others who seem to agree are fellow travellers.
anyway glad no-one was hurt!!!
just caught a news article that Islamic Fundamentalist Singed Majeep has been arrested in connection with the Glasgow Airport attack.
Boozeburglar
05-Jul-07, 10:00
I won't name names here but I want to ask some of you to consider stop acting like children.
As to a post I read about Crime rates in Westminster before - obviously you have no idea of the types of measures that there are in place there to combat such attacks... whereas the police up here are more reactive than proactive. Makes you wonder - a friend of mine was recently attacked with a baseball bat - maybe she'd have been safer walking around Lisson Grove at 3am!
Aye up!
Lisson Grove at 3 a.m., not too dangerous I would say. You might want to be careful wherever you walk at 3 a.m. nowadays, though.
http://www.reform.co.uk/filestore/pdf/Urban%20crime%20rankings%20-%20news%20release,%20Reform,%202006.pdf
A flawed report, perhaps. Maybe the Met's own statistics might lend you an insight into Westminster's true nature.
http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/
Fact is that Westminster is statistically the most violent borough in London, which means that you are many times more likely to be the victim of crime in Westminster than you would be in Wick, especially violent crime.
For every baseball and samurai sword in Wick you could probably find a score of handguns in Westminster. I have had one pulled on me in the past.
Whether the Police are proactive or reactive is an interesting question. Violent attacks in the street are generally over very quickly, so even if you are often protected from an attack by the preventative measures the Police take, you are still better off living somewhere with a lower likelihood of attack in the first place. It only takes one attack to scar you for life or worse, and 90% of the time it will be over before the Police get there.
The statistics linked only relate to crimes that have been committed, not crimes that were prevented.
"obviously you have no idea of the types of measures that there are in place there to combat such attacks"
Which attacks? I only go by my experience of living there, and what I hear from my friends in the Met (one of which is my sister in law) and those I know involved in the Civil Contingency measures. I am aware that many more terrorists are thwarted than are successful, thanks to the hard work of people in London and other major cities.
;)
I repeat,
You repeat your false logic.
What would happen if the police were to apply your logic to all crimes?
An Irishman gets arrested for fighting in a pub in London.
POLICE: Why were you fighting?
IRISHMAN: He knocked my drink over.
POLICE: Impossible, an Irishman was arrested for fighting in Birmingham last week and he hadn't had his drink knocked over.
I suppose the actions of the Marquis had nothing whatsoever to do with Hitler invading France they just did it because they didn't like Germans?
Your logic is false, you said the same after 7/7 and were proved wrong.
Here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$NQOJGQINY4DQJQFIQMFCFFOAVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2003/09/12/ndoss12.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/09/12/ixnewstop.html) is a newspaper report from September 2003 two years before the 7/7 attacks:
Tony Blair faced fresh controversy over his case for war against Iraq last night after a parliamentary committee disclosed that intelligence chiefs had warned him that toppling Saddam Hussein would increase the risk of terrorist attacks against Britain.
Not only did Blair knowingly lie that Iraq was a threat to this country when he went to war he did it knowing that he was putting every man woman and child Britain at risk, real risk not the invented weapons of mass destruction which could hit us at 45 minutes notice.
Boozeburglar
05-Jul-07, 10:47
And I wonder if the time people spend thinking about and posting about me on this forum wouldn't be better spent thinking about what has happened and why.
Fred,
Please believe me, the time I spend thinking about or posting about you isn't going to make a serious inroad into the time I spend doing much more important things, like painting the inside of my eyelids.
I don't need the repetitive ramblings, mostly incoherent and often very condescending; you seem obligated to post all the darn time to fuel my thought on any issue.
There are those who excrete the same tired rhetoric whenever a potential reference to their pet cause surfaces; who seek to divert every discussion towards such. In terms of reasoned debate, they eventually assume the gravitas of the pub bore.
Tolerated perhaps, but no credence given to their meanderings. Ignored by all but the trusty publican and his staff, or those new to the village eager to remain polite.
Your insistence on reducing every discussion to a diatribe on the Evil West and the Global Zionist Conspiracy provokes only one reaction to your appearance on the scene. Instantaneous, profound ennui.
Of course, the pub bore often makes a lot of sense, but who ever hears it?
:)
I don't need the repetitive ramblings, mostly incoherent and often very condescending; you seem obligated to post all the darn time to fuel my thought on any issue.
Good, don't read them then.
ywindythesecond
05-Jul-07, 23:50
I have been following this thread, and would like make an observation on the length of time it takes to create a doctor who is willing to destroy life.
Find an intelligent child who is impressionable, say 12 or 13 years old.
Work on that child to impress your vision of the world, for a year or two.
Convince that child that the most important thing that can be done is to destroy those who oppose you.
Make that child believe that it has a destiny.
Allow that child to enjoy a normal contributive life and fulfil many worthwhile functions in the society which welcomes it for a long period so he becomes trusted.
Tell that child that it is time to fulfil his destiny, and the child obeys.At least 15, probably 20 years.
The attack these people were to carry out was planned in principle 20 years ago
changilass
06-Jul-07, 00:18
Good, don't read them then.
Bit hard for him/her not too when folks keep quoting you lol
You repeat your false logic.
What would happen if the police were to apply your logic to all crimes?
An Irishman gets arrested for fighting in a pub in London.
POLICE: Why were you fighting?
IRISHMAN: He knocked my drink over.
POLICE: Impossible, an Irishman was arrested for fighting in Birmingham last week and he hadn't had his drink knocked over.
I suppose the actions of the Marquis had nothing whatsoever to do with Hitler invading France they just did it because they didn't like Germans?
Your logic is false, you said the same after 7/7 and were proved wrong.
Here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$NQOJGQINY4DQJQFIQMFCFFOAVCBQ YIV0?xml=/news/2003/09/12/ndoss12.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/09/12/ixnewstop.html) is a newspaper report from September 2003 two years before the 7/7 attacks:
Not only did Blair knowingly lie that Iraq was a threat to this country when he went to war he did it knowing that he was putting every man woman and child Britain at risk, real risk not the invented weapons of mass destruction which could hit us at 45 minutes notice.There is nothing illogical in what I say at all.
Your reference to the Marquis is very interesting. I’m sure that the Marquis had been advised that taking actions against the Germans would lead to reprisals. Not only that but I am fairly certain that the members of the Marquis would be horrified by your comparison.
Are you suggesting that the Marquis also went to Countries all over the world blowing up Frenchmen because they had decided they were not “French enough”. Yet again you are not comparing like with like.
I’m certain that Appeaser Chamberlain didn’t even need informing that by declaring war on Hitler there might just be an increase in the possibility that Britain might be on the receiving end of bombers. Are you suggesting that we should not have declared war on Hitler in order to remove him because of the risk involved?
Thank you for referring me to the article in the Telegraph. I note that the advice given to Blair by the Joint Intelligence Committee also included the comment that they, “Warned that the collapse of the Iraqi regime could increase the risk of chemical and biological weapons falling into the hands of terrorists.”
The Intelligence people were aware that the Chemical and Biological Weapons didn’t exist but they knew they might end up in the hands of Terrorists.
But they allegedly couldn’t give that advise, could they, because they knew that there were no Chemical and Biological Weapons.
“We shouldn’t invade because there are no Chemical and Biological Weapons but if we do invade Iraq the Chemical and Biological Weapons, which don’t exist, will probably end up in the hands of Terrorists.”
I like that one, I really do. I’m really glad you pointed that one out, fred.
I also like your Irishman story but once again you are not comparing like with like. This is not about two totally unconnected single incidents. A better analogy would be a group of thugs who, over a period of years, had gone from bar to bar and wherever they go they are involved in trouble. On each occasion give a different explanation for the reason why everybody else caused the trouble.
Eventually it becomes obvious that the reasons are simply excuses made in an attempt to justify their behaviour. Such groups can best be described as the “Who you looking at” Brigade.
You claim that Extremist Islamic Revolutionaries only commit their act as a result of the invasion of Iraq. So what have the countries in Africa and in the South East of Asia got to do with Iraq?
Further to that, I have never disputed the fact of the increased likelihood of Terrorism after the invasion of Iraq, in fact I would have been amazed if it hadn’t, that is the nature of Terrorism.
I think the difference in mind-set between the actions of the car-bombers in Glasgow and those of the people involved in dealing with them is summed up nicely by the comments of an off-duty Police Constable who could well have ignored the whole situation but instead assisted in putting out the person who was on fire in an attempt to save his life.
Constable Stewart Ferguson added: "It never entered my consciousness to walk away from the guy - I would have been failing in my duty. One of the primary duties of a police officer is to preserve life and it doesn't matter whose life that is at the end of the day." I wonder if the Islamic Revolutionaries would act with the same humanity?
I am more than a little amazed by the inane, thoughtless and downright misleading posts that this thread has evoked.
Whilst there have been a few who have replied with well thought out and considered comments for the most it has been worse that the tabloid press.
savage..adjective..uncivilised,in primitive state,fierce,cruel.
The Fundamentalists maybe be cruel in the eyes of some one who lives in a state that has a liberal democracy but they certainly are NOT uncivilised as they use every media outlet that is available to promote their ideology.
No savage would be able to comprehend the internet,mobile 'phones and the idea that they are fighting a holy war against those that they see as decadent and therefore to be destroyed at all costs.
This is a war of ideology and sadly there are those that see progress,democracy and freedom as a thing to be destroyed.
Mohamed said,"Be kind to women and children that you may live long in paradise."
I would lay odds of 1000 to 1 that the average Muslim has the same goals as the rest of us, to get their children a good education, be able to put food on the table and to live in peace.
OK rant over but I hope it has given some of you pause for thought.
This is a war of ideology and sadly there are those that see progress,democracy and freedom as a thing to be destroyed.
If the newspaper reports are to be believed then the terrorist attempts in London and Glasgow have been linked to Al Qaeda in Iraq, who have nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden by the way.
If this is so then they were not motivated by ideology they were motivated by nationalism, Al Qaeda in Iraq are more of a political than a theological organisation. My guess would be that they anticipated the withdrawal of large numbers of British troops from Iraq and wanted to be able to say that they made it happen. Much of what they have done in the past seems to have been aimed at making a name for themselves and our leaders in the West seem to have been all to eager to help them so that the public would wrongly associate the Iraqi insurgency with the events of 9/11.
I am more than a little amazed by the inane, thoughtless and downright misleading posts that this thread has evoked.
Whilst there have been a few who have replied with well thought out and considered comments for the most it has been worse that the tabloid press.
I would lay odds of 1000 to 1 that the average Muslim has the same goals as the rest of us, to get their children a good education, be able to put food on the table and to live in peace.
OK rant over but I hope it has given some of you pause for thought.
Imo the OP was intended to provoke just such a reaction.
Sadly, I'm no longer amazed, or even surprised, by some of the posts on threads such as this.
Slightly off topic -or maybe not -my small local Post Office/shop was broken into earlier this week. Some cigarettes were taken -otherwise, only personal items of sentimental value to the owners. They are a three generation Scottish family, ethnically Asian, the two younger generations being Edinburgh born and bred. I hope, but am not convinced, that the timing of this incident was purely coincidental. :confused
Lolabelle
06-Jul-07, 10:43
:~(I am disgusted by the way, what starts off as a good thread, reasonabley quickly disintegrates into a slinging match. I wonder if we need a 3 page cut off point, cause it often seems to go down hill after that.
It is a pity. [evil]
sorghaghtanibeki
06-Jul-07, 12:04
Lizz: "I am more than a little amazed by the inane, thoughtless and downright misleading posts that this thread has evoked. Whilst there have been a few who have replied with well thought out and considered comments for the most it has been worse that the tabloid press. savage..adjective..uncivilised,in primitive state,fierce,cruel."
I suppose that having part of a suicide bombers skull which disembowl and kill a middle-aged woman on your Underground July 7 2005 would be classed (by me anyway) as "savage..adjective..uncivilised,in primitive state,fierce,cruel" ?
Mr Bigley being beheaded would again be likewise
Giving these barbaric acts a civility of Political Correctness is wrong. Of course the vast majority of muslims are descent people, I have personel friend who was a fundamentalist muslim, who is banned from entering USA who told me "I've grown out of all that now".. so I was appling my original thread to this particular group of people, and not generalley
Giving these barbaric acts a civility of Political Correctness is wrong.
I'm not a fan of Political Correctness, but I fail to see where you found it appearing in Lizz's post. :confused
I would lay odds of 1000 to 1 that the average Muslim has the same goals as the rest of us, to get their children a good education, be able to put food on the table and to live in peace.
No doubt at all about that, but it is the minority who believe that we are all infidels and should be killed who are poisoning the minds of the world against Islam, which is, at it's very core, a religion of peace.
Islam has been hijacked by radicals and it is down to the moderate followers of Islam to stamp out this puss filled sore that is warping their religion.
With the recent attacks there has been a chap called Ed Husain on the news giving 'insight' into the issues of radical Islam. He has written a book, The Islamist: Why I Joined Radical Islam in Britain, What I Saw Inside and Why I Left (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Islamist-Joined-Radical-Britain-Inside/dp/0141030437) which looks, based upon his interviews, an interesting read. He advocates taking the disaffected young Muslims that seem to be fuel for the radicals and reversing the indoctrination which these radicals subject them to.
And would classing the terrorists as "animals" as opposed to "savages" or some other such description imply that if they were animals they would be really incapable of "comprehend[ing] the internet,mobile 'phones and the idea that they are fighting a holy war against those that they see as decadent and therefore to be destroyed at all costs."
It's a word - I'm sure there are savages somewhere in the world who would take exception at being linked to terrorists!! :D
You claim that Extremist Islamic Revolutionaries only commit their act as a result of the invasion of Iraq.
No I don't.
Once again you apply your false logic.
I claim that the recent terrorist activity in Britain was as a result of our invasion of Iraq.
New threat level indicator.....
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4465/terrorwarningnewyt0.jpg
Jeemag_USA
06-Jul-07, 16:45
New threat level indicator.....
Now thats funny [lol]
zenmaster
06-Jul-07, 22:15
Might this be proof that Osama bin Laden was in Glasgow orchestrating the airport events?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NG6x9lC7m0
No I don't.
Once again you apply your false logic.
I claim that the recent terrorist activity in Britain was as a result of our invasion of Iraq.
Acts of Terrorism against Britain and more especially America would appear to be perfectly reasonable and understandable.
Your excusing of terrorism bears as much weight as those who excuse the thief and move the blame to the victim because it wouldn’t have happened if they didn’t own something worth stealing.
My logic is sound enough. You arguments and explanations are nothing new, I’ve heard them most of my life and they sound even less convincing now than they ever did.
Excuse Terrorism when it is directed against the British and American Governments or their allies and ignore it when it occurs elsewhere.
I’ve no doubt that when everything has calmed down and people start to forget the details that it will all have been staged by the Government to provide them with an excuse for something or other.
I can’t wait to hear the revisionist version, they are usually a laugh a minute.
Oh, and I don’t recall anybody here disputing the fact that the reason for the particular terrorist acts in London and Glasgow were related to Iraq, not that that makes the slightest difference.
cullbucket
07-Jul-07, 08:42
Keep it up Fred, I can't help but admire your stamina.
If you actually read what Fred is saying, his basic tenets are sound.
There is no excuse for the what is being done by whoever is setting off these bombs, making attacks etc., but we have backed them into the corner and rightly or wrongly, we are fueling the fire. Fred's point seems to boil down to the fact that there should be no difference in the value of a human life, be it an Iraqi, Afghan, Scot or whatever. Anything done to us pales in significance when compared to the road to Basra in the 1st gulf war when hundreds of thousands were killed. If I was one of "them" I would be pissed off too......
Anyway, I think Arundhati Roy said it best in this link, this is pretty old now, but still valid.
http://www.zmag.org/roywarpeace.htm
C'mon the Freddy!!
Acts of Terrorism against Britain and more especially America would appear to be perfectly reasonable and understandable.
I believe the only way to end acts of terrorism is to try to understand them, I believe that is our duty. I believe the only way to understand is to base our reasoning on the facts not wishful thinking, not on a blind patriotic delusion that our acts of terrorism, no matter how great no matter how devastating, are good and justified and that all their acts of terrorism, no matter how small and insignificant, is evil.
Here are the facts.
The terrorist incidents have been linked by our government and the media to a group calling themselves Al Qaeda in Iraq.
Al Qaeda in Iraq are a group of mainly foreign insurgents operating in Iraq.
They have no connection to Bin Laden, they chose the name so that they would be a household word before they even started.
At most 5% of the insurgency in Iraq is comprised of foreign mujahideen of which less than half are allied to Al Qaeda in Iraq.
In a speech at the National War College last month Bush mentioned Al Qaeda 27 times while hardly mentioning the other insurgent groups at all.
In a Newsweek poll 41% of Americans said they thought that Iraq was directly involved in the events of 9/11, that is 5% more than in the same poll conducted in 2004.
What I am saying is that there is a huge inferno burning in the Middle East, an inferno we started and are fuelling, it is running dangerously out of control and threatening to engulf the entire region. All the terrorist incidents in Britain did was throw a small log on, I'm not justifying that I'm just putting it in perspective and pointing out that our governments and the perpetrators appear to be on the same side.
Margaret M.
07-Jul-07, 15:49
Keep it up Fred, I can't help but admire your stamina.
I agree. Fred looks at situations through the eyes of others -- not a bad trait by any means. Sadly, the US and UK are not always the good guys in the world arena and we need the Freds to remind us of that. If we practice tolerance and have an open mind, we can learn much from those with a different point of view.
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