View Full Version : Should heroin be given on the NHS?
Listening to the radio i heard this story about them giving out heroin on the NHS.....Now as some prescription drugs are not allowed then why the hell should they be giving drug users the daily lot of heroin out for nothing...I know someone who asked a question on the org about what has happened to the NHS, well wouldn,t we all like to know where it is going with this one....
If the situation regarding heroin and other drugs is looked at with intelligence and knowledge then the giving of heroin to registered addicts is common sense.
oh god! i cant believe this! its pure mental...........
what is going on in the world?:confused
its absolutely outrageous to give out heroin on the NHS when people who have breast cancer cant get a certain drug (cant remember the name) unless they live in a certain area , but yet the are willing to give out heroin for nothing?[disgust]
oh god! i cant believe this! its pure mental...........
what is going on in the world?:confused
and would you believe that it is the Chief Constable (i think that is who) of the Police that is asking for it...He believes it will cut crime....HE HE HE:eek:
this is pure stupidity! police are just being lazy, we are meant to be trying to get people of drugs not encourage them to continue taking them!
I think this one goes hand in hand with the legalise drugs issue to be honest. We have to have a sensible debate about htis without throwing our hands up in horror.
The only rider on this is that they cant give out heroin and not give people drugs that would help medical conditions. I dont hold witht he view that the NHS is rubbish but i do beleive that the powers that be make some weird decisions about drugs.
But then the big question is where will it stop. next it will be cocaine,cannabis,amphetamines and god knows what else.....Its just apity that the person in charge of this doesnot use their heads and say no before it opens up pandoras box....I have seen in the news so many children taking the heroin that their parents should be taking and dying and now they want to give it out more freely....God Help Us All......:confused
i think this is absolutely ridiculous! are they going to be handing out bottles of vodka for alcoholics?
they will have alot of people claiming to be addicts! i dont see how this can actually happen
i think this is absolutely ridiculous! are they going to be handing out bottles of vodka for alcoholics?
they will have alot of people claiming to be addicts! i dont see how this can actually happen
Not sure what the law is about that now but when i was younger you got extra money for being an alcaholic...so you could feed your habbit as a drinker....Maybe they should just put them all in a government rehab and see if they can sort themselves out...but then they have to want to....
A big resounding no to that idea
As a previous poster said there are women with breast cancer fighting for medication, to give them a fighting chance to live.
Also people with alzheimers being denied a new drug because at £17.50 a week it is deemed too expensive.
I admit we need radical changes but supplying heroin gratias to users, get a grip,
lets supply drink to alcoholics, chocolate to chocoholics., even spray paint to graffitti artists.
what the heck, lets just let everyone do what they want to, when they want to, and then let us sit back as pandamoniun ensues.
My final word, then i will shut up. Heroin addicts choose to take their drugs, i did not choose to have my illness, my mum did not choose to have cancer.
I wish i knew what the solution to this problem is, methadone has not helped so what good will heroin do. inflame an already uncontrollable problem.
There was a time when heroin was available to addicts on the NHS in this country and we had one of the lowest rates of heroin addiction in the world. There were a few hundreds, people who had become addicted abroad, during medical treatment, ex doctors. There was little black market heroin available, nobody imported it, there was no demand, no drug gangs. There was none of the crime associated with drug use, addicts didn't need to steal to feed their habit.
Then in their infinite wisdom the powers that be decided to adopt the American failed system, they had one of the worst hard drugs problem in the world. They started treating addicts with methadone instead and the next ferry from Rotterdam was loaded with brown sugar, it became available on a street corner near everyone to anyone, it became big business.
Heroin is cheap, it costs little to grow the poppies in third world countries and it is cheap to manufacture, it would cost the nation very little to supply an addict. The present system where the addict steals from someone, sells the things he steals cheap to a fence to pay exorbitant prices to make drug barons incredibly rich is very inefficient. The addict steals goods worth a thousand pounds to buy heroin the NHS could supply them with for pennies and we are all paying for it in our insurance premiums.
This goes back to what i said and have said many times before about looking at ALL the options to deal with the drug problems. We NEVER do that - our politicians play around the edges with it but they NEVER EVER EVER take a really good look at it.
To resolve the drug problems we HAVE to look outwith our previous experience. To refuse to discuss legalisation is like driving to your destination refusing to do right turns. you might get there in the end if you are lucky but it will take you much longer to do so. Why would you try to sort something out whilst only looking over your left shoulder. Legalisation might NOT be the answer but how do we know when we never consider it.
If the situation regarding heroin and other drugs is looked at with intelligence and knowledge then the giving of heroin to registered addicts is common sense.
I stand by this statement. The shock and horror and emotional outcry from most of the previous posts indicates little or no knowledge of the system and the possible solutions to the evergrowing drug problem.
Fred, you have the right of it.
Squidge, we will never have a seasoned debate on a subject where emotion and misunderstanding will always reign supreme.
NickInTheNorth
26-Jun-07, 16:41
In a word - YES
I stand by this statement. The shock and horror and emotional outcry from most of the previous posts indicates little or no knowledge of the system and the possible solutions to the evergrowing drug problem.
Fred, you have the right of it.
Squidge, we will never have a seasoned debate on a subject where emotion and misunderstanding will always reign supreme.
I agree but i would like to see one brave politician actually stand up and make the decision to really DEAL with and RESOLVE the drug issues instead of hiding behind the emotions of the issue to effectively ignore it all and allow the status quo to continue, whilst in the meantime families all over the country see their beloved sons and daughters get trapped in a viscious and cruel world of drug abuse, criminal activity and prostitution and are powerless to do anything to break the cycle of crime and drug abuse, whilst watching others throw their hands in the air and shout what wasters they are and how it is all their own faults and they should be left to rot or locked up and the keys thrown away.
The whole situation needs some innovative thinking by someone with some courage - not a word i can associate with any of our political leaders just now.
Well there is one positive thing about giving heroin out from the nhs that is the druggy wont have to mug people or break into houses to feed there habit so it will put crime levels down and will put the dealer out of pocket and hopefully make it less chance foir the working person getting mugged or there house getting robbed.
Jeemag_USA
26-Jun-07, 17:56
There was a time when heroin was available to addicts on the NHS in this country and we had one of the lowest rates of heroin addiction in the world. There were a few hundreds, people who had become addicted abroad, during medical treatment, ex doctors. There was little black market heroin available, nobody imported it, there was no demand, no drug gangs. There was none of the crime associated with drug use, addicts didn't need to steal to feed their habit.
Then in their infinite wisdom the powers that be decided to adopt the American failed system, they had one of the worst hard drugs problem in the world. They started treating addicts with methadone instead and the next ferry from Rotterdam was loaded with brown sugar, it became available on a street corner near everyone to anyone, it became big business.
Heroin is cheap, it costs little to grow the poppies in third world countries and it is cheap to manufacture, it would cost the nation very little to supply an addict. The present system where the addict steals from someone, sells the things he steals cheap to a fence to pay exorbitant prices to make drug barons incredibly rich is very inefficient. The addict steals goods worth a thousand pounds to buy heroin the NHS could supply them with for pennies and we are all paying for it in our insurance premiums.
I am with Fred and Gleber2 on this subject. I think it should be given on the condition that the people are affirmed addicts or declared addicts and they have to take part in a program to kick drugs in order to receive help. People just don't understand how bad addiction is but like to think they do for the purposes of a public forum. There are plenty mothers out there who become addicted to pharmaceuticals that have been prescribed by their doctor, anti-depressants and so on, and they also need help but I guess the same people in this thread who would deny a heroin addict help would also deny mothers with depression who have become addicted to pills help also. Its all just uninformed chitter chatter from people who have no idea what they are talking about (same as in the thread on the people witch hunting the dope peddler and decrying cannabis for everything and the devil).
Heroin is a serious problem, its a serious drug, there was a day when it was the most serious drug in the world but now there are much worse evils being sold. The easiest way to reform an addict is to give him your time and keep him out of trouble, if he or she is receiving heroin as part of a controlled program, then they cannot be out getting involved in burglary and or violence to feed their habit.
The other problem is that unless you listened to the radio show you will not know exactly what was said, as Justine obviously has not given an accurate retelling as you can't do that in four or five words, she just said their giving it out on the NHS. This obviously cannot be so, there will always be some kind of interview and patient history process, nothing is ever so simple as you walk into Caithness General and ask for a wee baggy for the weekend, please be realistic.
If you thought Heroin was the most evil drug in the world you should check out stories on Crystal Meth, it makes heroin look like sherbert in comparison. The rate of successfully kicking a Crystal Meth habit is less than 4% in the USA because it is so addictive, it totally destroys people, there have been people on programs here for two years and been off the drug and still go back, the pull is that strong. And you can't always blame these people for getting into that situation, sometimes its bad upbringing, escaping domestic violence, you can't just label people in this situation as junkies and idiots, they are people just waiting for other good people to save them. I say anything that helps in any way to counter the problem should be approved.
Jeemag_USA
26-Jun-07, 18:01
Well there is one positive thing about giving heroin out from the nhs that is the druggy wont have to mug people or break into houses to feed there habit so it will put crime levels down and will put the dealer out of pocket and hopefully make it less chance foir the working person getting mugged or there house getting robbed.
Good point which I forgot to include, if heroin is used in controlled programs to help people off the drug, then the dealers will lose their customers, so not only does it drop crime level as far as mugging and burglary goes but also it can help eliminate the middle men that sell the product.
Tubthumper
26-Jun-07, 18:09
I remember that avery time there's a discussion about legalising cannabis, there's an outcry about alcohol being a bigger problem than cannabis ever was, violence, liver failure etc. etc.
Now we find that heroin is such an awfully addictive & destructive drug that it's only right that addicts should be prescribed the drug itself, not a substitute.
Can I ask that the pro-illegal drug lobby sort arrange some kind of consistency here: Alcohol's effects are worse than those of cannabis, but are they worse than heroin, and how much bigger is the alocohol problem?
And if it's worse (in health effect, breadth of problem) why the h*ll are the alkies not being considered for free booze?
The drug lobby can't have it all ways.
Jeemag_USA
26-Jun-07, 18:14
I remember that avery time there's a discussion about legalising cannabis, there's an outcry about alcohol being a bigger problem than cannabis ever was, violence, liver failure etc. etc.
Now we find that heroin is such an awfully addictive & destructive drug that it's only right that addicts should be prescribed the drug itself, not a substitute.
Can I ask that the pro-illegal drug lobby sort arrange some kind of consistency here: Alcohol's effects are worse than those of cannabis, but are they worse than heroin, and how much bigger is the alocohol problem?
And if it's worse (in health effect, breadth of problem) why the h*ll are the alkies not being considered for free booze?
The drug lobby can't have it all ways.
I can understand where your going with that but really you can answer most of them questions yourself for sure, especially the alcohol one considering it doesn't cost $150 a gram like some other drugs. I woudl never suggest that heroin should be made legal, but to use it in a drug addiction program through a health service is not a bad thing to do if it has been done elsewhere and proved to be beneficial. So its not a case of people being two faced as you are trying to make it sound, its all about being realistic and looking at all the options for this particalar problem.
I remember that avery time there's a discussion about legalising cannabis, there's an outcry about alcohol being a bigger problem than cannabis ever was, violence, liver failure etc. etc.
Now we find that heroin is such an awfully addictive & destructive drug that it's only right that addicts should be prescribed the drug itself, not a substitute.
Can I ask that the pro-illegal drug lobby sort arrange some kind of consistency here: Alcohol's effects are worse than those of cannabis, but are they worse than heroin, and how much bigger is the alocohol problem?
And if it's worse (in health effect, breadth of problem) why the h*ll are the alkies not being considered for free booze?
The drug lobby can't have it all ways.
Total deaths in Scotland per year from all drugs is about 350. For alcohol the figure is six per day from alcohol related illness. I would say, therefore that alcohol is the worse drug and there are a lot more alcoholics in denial than the total number of heroin users.
In my opinion, having been a pro musician for over forty years and playing for the pub audiences all over the world, alcohol is the most evilly insidious substances on planet Earth. Of course, for the uninformed, it is legal therefore must be all right.
Some day, perhaps, the human race will wake up to reality and deal with the situation. So often I have been regaled about the evils of drugs by some-one with a whisky in one hand and a fag in the other. Ignorance rules and meantime countless more young people are caught by the snares of this life and become addicted to one of the available substances, whether legal or not.
The opium trade, leading to the heroin trade, was started by those who had already addicted all of Europe to tea. A fine story when the facts are studied by an informed mind.
Drugs is more adictive than alcohol and drugs more expensive habit to feed thats why a druggy will go to any lengths to feed the habbit but to be honest about it they chould tax alcohol to the same as ciggerettes.
Imagine if they could elimate druggs and alcohol the crime rate would be near on zero
I remember that avery time there's a discussion about legalising cannabis, there's an outcry about alcohol being a bigger problem than cannabis ever was, violence, liver failure etc. etc.
Now we find that heroin is such an awfully addictive & destructive drug that it's only right that addicts should be prescribed the drug itself, not a substitute.
Can I ask that the pro-illegal drug lobby sort arrange some kind of consistency here: Alcohol's effects are worse than those of cannabis, but are they worse than heroin, and how much bigger is the alocohol problem?
And if it's worse (in health effect, breadth of problem) why the h*ll are the alkies not being considered for free booze?
The drug lobby can't have it all ways.
Come on now if they gave free drink to alcoholics they'd put the off-licenses out of business.
I believe an alcoholic on social security gets and extra £20 a week to hand back to the revenue men.
While there are people suffering from illnesses which are not their fault, and are not being given the treatment they should be because a drug is too expensive, or they live in the wrong area I say under no circumstances should druggies get free heroin on the NHS.
Are we going mad? Even thinking about this? Everyday the news has stories about people who have been condemned to an ealy death or a poor quality of what little life they have left and you're talikng about providing junkies with a daily fix on taxpayers money?
I'd get kicked off these forums for telling you what I truely think so I'll leave it at that!!!!!!!!!!
We were talking about this at work today and the subject of alcoholics came up and wee Joe said an alcoholic can get up to £300 a month in benefits depending on how bad there drink problem,this cant be true can it?.
I work in retail & every single adult shoplifter I have dealt with in 8 years has been an addict. The cost saving to the taxpayer of not paying police time to deal with this type of incident would more than pay for any drug rehabilitation program (no matter how controversial), and perhaps provide "more bobbies on the beat" which always seems to be a standard unfulfilled promise of politicians at election time. In short I'm all for it.
While there are people suffering from illnesses which are not their fault, and are not being given the treatment they should be because a drug is too expensive, or they live in the wrong area I say under no circumstances should druggies get free heroin on the NHS.
Are we going mad? Even thinking about this? Everyday the news has stories about people who have been condemned to an ealy death or a poor quality of what little life they have left and you're talikng about providing junkies with a daily fix on taxpayers money?
I'd get kicked off these forums for telling you what I truely think so I'll leave it at that!!!!!!!!!!
I am with you Mad Pict, I paid my National Insurance Stamps all those years to give Heroin to Junkies??? Not if I can help it, IMO that Chief Constable must be up for re-election or looking for a Commissioners job
Good point which I forgot to include, if heroin is used in controlled programs to help people off the drug, then the dealers will lose their customers, so not only does it drop crime level as far as mugging and burglary goes but also it can help eliminate the middle men that sell the product.
WOW- you have it cracked! (no pun) All we have to do is give it to them for free,then we can all sleep sound in our beds-Not worry about burglars-muggers,etc very low italics here.
What bugs me is why,if it is this blasted simplistic,have some of the BEST brains in this country,not cottoned on to it before now???
Surely to goodness you- an you are qualified-you must have been taught to look at both ends of the stick.
Im'y with mettalic here it makes my blood boil!
Someone voices concern over an important issue, and you gang up and blast them off the face of the earth with your book of statistics 'I know it all 'you'r just a dumbbell!!
Na no way.
You guys should stand for something-Lord Mayor or President-wonder what you would call your party??
The mind boggles is the first call.
wavy davy
26-Jun-07, 22:11
What bugs me is why,if it is this blasted simplistic,have some of the BEST brains in this country,not cottoned on to it before now???
.
Because any politician or policeman who wants to keep his/her job knows that they will be blasted by close minded people like you
Because any politician or policeman who wants to keep his/her job knows that they will be blasted by close minded people like you
On the nail!!!!!
Nothing new in that Jeemag it's been around since the 60s, was misused and abused then and will continue to be so.
I have no objection to addicts being treated and as methadone clearly does n't seem to work, then just maybe we should be looking at the problem from a different angle.
What really concerns me is why are we not looking at why people turn to drugs be it alcohol, smoking,cannabis ,heroin or whatever.Why can't a young ,fit person spend a night out dancing without having to pop ectasy? Are those who misuse, abuse so low in self esteem and cofidence that they need some sort of prop?
Cure the social causes and just may be we will go some way to solving the problem.
Tubthumper
26-Jun-07, 22:55
Are those who misuse, abuse so low in self esteem and cofidence that they need some sort of prop?
Cure the social causes and just may be we will go some way to solving the problem.
On the nail!!!
Jeemag_USA
26-Jun-07, 22:56
WOW- you have it cracked! (no pun) All we have to do is give it to them for free,then we can all sleep sound in our beds-Not worry about burglars-muggers,etc very low italics here.
What bugs me is why,if it is this blasted simplistic,have some of the BEST brains in this country,not cottoned on to it before now???
Surely to goodness you- an you are qualified-you must have been taught to look at both ends of the stick.
Im'y with mettalic here it makes my blood boil!
Someone voices concern over an important issue, and you gang up and blast them off the face of the earth with your book of statistics 'I know it all 'you'r just a dumbbell!!
Na no way.
You guys should stand for something-Lord Mayor or President-wonder what you would call your party??
The mind boggles is the first call.
You are missing my point, and part of the reason for this is the whole breakdown of this subject has not been displayed or linked by the original poster. I am sure nobody including myself is advocating that we just make Heroin illegal and free, if you'll take time to fully digest what is being suggested then you might not take such an offhand view of what is being said. The original idea was to help long term addicts come off of the habit and stay away from the crime involved in it by taking them onto a program that would encourage and help them kick the habit through support education and dosages. I don't think anyone in government is just talking about opening a shop to give free heroin to anyone who wants it. I guess its easy to make it sound like that though if thats the way you want it to sound, the opening post certainly does. If you think this is the wrong direction then I am sure you can tell those who have been trying for years how to combat a growing crime and addict situation exactly how they should do it. All I am saying is that because this thread started with a lack of information on exactly what was said on the radio show then it will continue that way, with misinformation and sensationalist viewpoints. ;)
Jeemag_USA
26-Jun-07, 23:09
Are those who misuse, abuse so low in self esteem and cofidence that they need some sort of prop?
Cure the social causes and just may be we will go some way to solving the problem.
Yes I think most addicts are, not people in general, but addicts are very low in self esteem, when you get so sucked into something and can't get out of it, you feel weak and it effects your self esteem in a long way, without proper help death and suicide are the end result in a lot of cases.
Having said that I agree with your second point absolutely, not an easy thing to do but if it can be done every government in the world would follow suit to achieve the same thing. I think unfortunately a certain section of society is always self destructive, its like finding the meaning of life trying to find an answer to that. I think all attraction to dangerous drugs or any form of alternative to normal life is pstchological and stem from all sorts of domestic problems or problems stemming from peer pressure in the community you grow up in, and because of that I have as much sympathy for a drug addict who does not want to be one as I do for a terminally ill person who also does not want to be ill.
If Heroin is eradicated from the face of Britain, it still will not solve the social problems related to because another outlet will be found. A good example of the bad way to do something can be seen all the time in the USA, they have been hell bent for decades on taking a hardline approach to drugs, from burning crops in Colombia to using force to erradicat supply lines of Opium from the east. What has happened as a result is the rapid growth of Methamphetamine in the USA, because people can make it in labs in the back of a car made from materials from within the country. So the disafected of society have found another substance to cling to that does not involve import from another country. So in effect what has happened is the problem has not been solved it has just been moved, which relates back to your point about solving society's problems, spend more time preventing people becoming addicts than trying to cure existing ones. Not an easy thing to do though.
Tubthumper
26-Jun-07, 23:20
Total deaths in Scotland per year from all drugs is about 350. For alcohol the figure is six per day from alcohol related illness. I would say, therefore that alcohol is the worse drug and there are a lot more alcoholics in denial than the total number of heroin users.
In my opinion, having been a pro musician for over forty years and playing for the pub audiences all over the world, alcohol is the most evilly insidious substances on planet Earth. Of course, for the uninformed, it is legal therefore must be all right.
Some day, perhaps, the human race will wake up to reality and deal with the situation. So often I have been regaled about the evils of drugs by some-one with a whisky in one hand and a fag in the other. Ignorance rules and meantime countless more young people are caught by the snares of this life and become addicted to one of the available substances, whether legal or not.
The opium trade, leading to the heroin trade, was started by those who had already addicted all of Europe to tea. A fine story when the facts are studied by an informed mind.
I'm on side with the bits about alcohol being bad news, I am concerned by the references to uninformed vs informed minds; it seems that your angle is alcohol user = UNinformed mind, INinformed mind is perhaps supportive of the non-alcohol drugs side. Strange for an anti-alcohol person to be operating for 40 years in pubs though....
I've also been around a bit and I've seen people badly damaged by cocaine & amphetamine use, by presribed anti-depressant use, and many for whom alcohol was the cause of major problems and even one death. But I've also seen the results of regular cannabis use, and unlike some on the site I am very cynical about suggestions that it's harmless. I've been lectured by a goon with a large joint in one hand and a pointy finger in the other, about the evils of whisky drinking. I later found found out he beat his wife on a regular basis because dope fuelled his paranoia, resulting in secret violence against her.
I suppose the lesson for us all is that abuse of anything (especially by those who are by nature fragile, susceptible to peer pressure, who seek acceptance or recognition or who simply find themselves using a short-term crutch) can lead to very serious consequences.
We should seek to sort out the causes of the abuse of stimulants, not the symptoms or results. And I suspect that battle is one that few politicians would be willing to join.
Caveat Emptor, but never forget it could be YOU who needs the crutch one day!
Nothing new in that Jeemag it's been around since the 60s, was misused and abused then and will continue to be so.
I have no objection to addicts being treated and as methadone clearly does n't seem to work, then just maybe we should be looking at the problem from a different angle.
What really concerns me is why are we not looking at why people turn to drugs be it alcohol, smoking,cannabis ,heroin or whatever.Why can't a young ,fit person spend a night out dancing without having to pop ectasy? Are those who misuse, abuse so low in self esteem and cofidence that they need some sort of prop?
Cure the social causes and just may be we will go some way to solving the problem.
On the Nail Lizz
wavy davy
26-Jun-07, 23:22
Jeemag,
I believe that the copper who suggested free heroin as an option for discussion was coming at it as a means of reducing crime committed by addicts desperate for money.
Given that you can make crystal meth "in the back of a car" - does it follow that it's significantly cheaper than heroin (high for high). If so do you know if the American experience has been that crystal meth addicts commit less crime than heroin addicts?
Not a loaded question - just curious.
well lets see how far the government is prepared to go, then you got to read this that i just came across.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6242298.stm
Tubthumper
26-Jun-07, 23:31
well lets see how far the government is prepared to go, then you got to read this that i just came across.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6242298.stm
What a truly wonderful idea!
the only difficulties I can see are (a) you'd have to buy the whole crop every year, at least until some alternative activity was in place (b) what about the junkies who weren't getting treatment (c) what would the importers & dealers move into in order to survive - different drugs? (not that I care about them!!!)
But short term what a great way to announce Scotland to the world. (As long as they didn't think we were all junkies)
Jeemag_USA
26-Jun-07, 23:33
Jeemag,
I believe that the copper who suggested free heroin as an option for discussion was coming at it as a means of reducing crime committed by addicts desperate for money.
Given that you can make crystal meth "in the back of a car" - does it follow that it's significantly cheaper than heroin (high for high). If so do you know if the American experience has been that crystal meth addicts commit less crime than heroin addicts?
Not a loaded question - just curious.
I am not sure how much cheaper it is, but I know that for the normal person it would not be considered cheap. As it is made from a concoction of ingredients these days including stuff that can be bought over the counter, it still costs the maker to get this and of course he is going to try and make as much profit as possible. Crystal Meth is becoming the poor mans drug in the USA but it still costs to purchase it and there is still a lot of crime surrounding it, not just burglary and violence but also neglect to family and children by users as there are many many children growing up around it in impoverished areas. Some poorer areas in american cities are becoming overrun with Crystal Meth. Crystal Meth costs about $10 a point (about tenth of a gram) so it is $100 per gram on average, hundred dollars is not easy to come buy for most poor people, most can find $10 for a hit, but also most require a couple hits a day. It mounts up.
It is not just the policeman story that is current, there is also an MSP who is advocating purchasing of Opium crops in countries like Afghanistan to allow the refinement of heroin to treat long term addicts in the UK, that was another story I was reading on the BBC.
Jeemag_USA
26-Jun-07, 23:37
well lets see how far the government is prepared to go, then you got to read this that i just came across.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6242298.stm
Thats the other story that I read yesterday, not the same as the one on the radio show and it has different points, some that I agree with and some that I don't, like Tubthumper said you'd have to buy crop every year which means you are supporting a country's ability to produce something that panders to the disaffected of society.
I think the concept of using Heroin in a controlled substance abuse program to help long term addicts and reduce the crime surrounding it is something that should be given consideration.
The above link is a seperate story which covers different ground to a certain extent.
wavy davy
26-Jun-07, 23:53
Scottish Conservative leader Annabel Goldie said: "We could endlessly debate whether or not to prescribe legal drugs and buy up the world supplies.
"But the real issue is reducing dependency and dramatically cutting the number of addicts and that is where I will focus my energies when I meet with the first minister to drive forward a new agenda for tackling drugs in Scotland."
Does this woman live in the real world.
The "war on drugs" has been lost. I totally agree that the drugs "problem" is primarily down to social deprivation, lack of opportunity, ready availability etc etc, but these are not issues than will be resolved in her lifetime.
Accept that drugs are here to stay (as they always have been in one form or another) and think intelligently about ways to reduce their social and economic impact. As the much maligned copper did today.
IMHO
Accept that drugs are here to stay (as they always have been in one form or another) and think intelligently about ways to reduce their social and economic impact. As the much maligned copper did today.
IMHO
Why???????????
wavy davy
27-Jun-07, 00:07
Sorry Golach. Why what?
Accept that drugs are here to stay (as they always have been in one form or another) and think intelligently about ways to reduce their social and economic impact. As the much maligned copper did today.
IMHO
Why should we accept this as the norm, only the users of drugs accept this I dont
wavy davy
27-Jun-07, 00:22
There are many people addicted to drugs in the UK.
These people commit crimes in order to feed their habit. These crimes cost many millions of pounds, both to the victims and in police time.
Drugs are readily available and the cops and Customs both admit they can't stop it.
It's a problem that is escalating daily. Please tell us how you are going to improve the situation. Machine guns at dawn not allowed.
The point is that NO ONE - none of our best brains in Britain ARE looking at this with any innovative thought. The politicians look at it with a one sided view because they dont want to upset the electorate.
The policeman that spoke out was at least trying to make sense of something and to try to get a dialogue going about alternative ways to treat addicts - Alcohol is also a HUGE issue but there is plenty of help avalable to those alcoholics who want it. In fact there is a WHOLE industry around helping Alcoholics to come off the booze, Rehabilitation, Alcoholics anonymous, mental health workers, support workers, information officers, Alcoholics dont as a matter of course get extra money on their benefits for buying alcohol. They dont get it issued free either but they do get valium to help them come off it and they do get antabuse if they decide to go that route. The other thing is that there is somehow more sympathy for people addicted to alcohol than to drugs and that doesnt make sense either.
The point about Heroin being prescribed on the NHS is the same as any other drug being prescribed.... if it is in MEDICAL opinion the best treatment for a particular person then they should be prescribed it, the same as any other drug - this postcode lottery for any drug HAS to stop.
i think this is absolutely ridiculous! are they going to be handing out bottles of vodka for alcoholics?
they will have alot of people claiming to be addicts! i dont see how this can actually happen
The NH doesn't (yet) but the social security does. I know some one who gets extra benifit to buy drink so check this.
Are the lunatics running the asylum now? Buying heroin from the Taliban? What ever next, permission to grow your cannabis and cook your own crystal meths? [evil]
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1001612007
The NH doesn't (yet) but the social security does. I know some one who gets extra benifit to buy drink so check this.
That isnt true - Alcoholics do not get extra money to buy drink with.
Where the misunderstanding occurs is sometimes because people on long term sick get extra money for being long term sick - it doesnt matter whether its alcoholism or a bad back - the key thing is not being fit for work.
An example of what can happen is that there are two levels of Sickness benefit These used to be called Sickness benefit and Incapacity benefit - Incapacity benefit used to be paid when you reached 6 months sick if i remember rightly. It was also quite a bit more than sickness benefit and Unemployment benefit but you had to have worked and paid enough National Insurance contributions to qualify - if you hadnt worked then you didnt get the extra. The key factor is NOT whether you are an alcoholic but whether you are fit to work - if you were off work with some other illness you would get the extra money if you were entitled to it. I beleive thecurrent system is the same except you have to wait for 9 months for the long term sick rate but i might be wrong
So the bottom line is that alcoholics do not get extra money to "spend on drink". People who are on long term sick may qualify for extra benefits becuase they are not fit for work regardless of what their illness or incapacity is.
Example
I am sick due to something long term - lets say depression - Dr signs me off - I apply for benefits and i get x amount.
I am sick due to alcoholism - Dr Signs me off - i apply for benefits and get x amount. The amount will be the same.
Makes good reading jeemag, but my personal experiance don't equate.
j4bberw0ck
29-Jun-07, 20:22
Limited internet access just now but fred's right. And squidge (as usual).
The government should licence drugs shops which sell alcohol, tobacco and all available street drugs. Charge for them and take a tax slice out of them. If you want them, they're yours on payment. What you get is expert advice, drugs of known purity and a choice........
And by the way, I'd stop the sale of alcohol and tobacco in any outlet other than a drugs shop; you want, you go queue with the junkies and / or other users.
It's no good saying drugs should be banned; you can't ban them. The human race has spent half a million years looking for ways of getting a toot and you won't stop it now.
It's no good saying drugs should be banned; you can't ban them. The human race has spent half a million years looking for ways of getting a toot and you won't stop it now.
Even if it was legalized that would not help, there are the rats and crooks that would abuse the system as they do now with bootleg Fags / DVD's and downloading illegal music, growing their own weed ect ect, and IMO those that do these things are the lowest of the low. they are profiteering from the weak and vulnerable
Even if it was legalized that would not help, there are the rats and crooks that would abuse the system as they do now with bootleg Fags / DVD's and downloading illegal music, growing their own weed ect ect, and IMO those that do these things are the lowest of the low. they are profiteering from the weak and vulnerable
Thanks golach I was trying to put that into words,you beat me to it. Well said.
j4bberw0ck
29-Jun-07, 21:22
Surely the common denominator is that they grow their own weed because it's cheaper/ easier than buying on the street, or because they want to sell it? Take out the opportunity for dealers to profit by making it legal to purchase cheaply at a drug shop, and free off the billions a year of money being spent on trying to stop smuggling and selling....... it's a no-brainer, really.
If you worry about your son or daughter getting caught up, they probably already are...... if they don't take it they know people who do. If they want to experiment, let them - under controlled circumstances where they know what they're taking and what the risks are, instead of at a party somewhere where they have no idea at all what they're actually swallowing. Could be talc, rat poison, a "bad batch"...... whatever.
Even if it was legalized that would not help, there are the rats and crooks that would abuse the system as they do now with bootleg Fags / DVD's and downloading illegal music, growing their own weed ect ect, and IMO those that do these things are the lowest of the low. they are profiteering from the weak and vulnerable
Yes people who sell bootleg fags are profiteering from the weak and vulnerable.
So are people who sell non bootleg fags and the people who collect taxes on them.
Limited internet access just now but fred's right. And squidge (as usual).
The government should licence drugs shops which sell alcohol, tobacco and all available street drugs. Charge for them and take a tax slice out of them. If you want them, they're yours on payment. What you get is expert advice, drugs of known purity and a choice........
And by the way, I'd stop the sale of alcohol and tobacco in any outlet other than a drugs shop; you want, you go queue with the junkies and / or other users.
It's no good saying drugs should be banned; you can't ban them. The human race has spent half a million years looking for ways of getting a toot and you won't stop it now.
Do not confuse them with facts; they have already made up their minds!!!
j4bberw0ck
30-Jun-07, 19:03
Yes people who sell bootleg fags are profiteering from the weak and vulnerable.
So are people who sell non bootleg fags and the people who collect taxes on them.
You could argue it's a tax on stupidity, of course...... and like all so called "progressive" taxes, the poorest end up paying the highest marginal rates.
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