Renewable energy, Pentland Firth named

[Tugmistress]

IT HAS been described as the "greatest untapped source of energy Scotland has ever had", capable of generating enough electricity for every home and business in the country several times over.
But while the Pentland Firth has been too deep and too dangerous to exploit, the race is now on to develop machines that will harness this "underwater hurricane" and fundamentally change Scotland.


Rest of the article HERE (http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=982522007#new)

[MadPict]

Great! Lets see blended Orcas (and other sea life) added to the mix.......

[peter macdonald]

Funny how these creatures have evaded submarines drift nets wrecks pipelines and their own kind (when in preditary mode) etc etc over the years Somebody wrote on here about whales not crossing undersea cables .what utter tosh a wee look at whale migration routes and where cables are laid across the Pacific and Atlantic will disprove that without doubt Hence you get marine mammals using the Pentland firth across 2 cables one in use and one disused ...Its the same in the Moray Firth
Mad Pict give the creatures a little credit for the intelligence they have used since their evolution.... If you want to be a little picky about what goes on in the sea please look away now .......plankton eaten by herring eaten by cod eaten by toothed whale or how about a nice friendly lobster which will eat all sorts of decaying matter flesh or otherwise on the seabed
Sorry but thats life (and death)
PM

[Yoda the flump]

IT HAS been described as the "greatest untapped source of energy Scotland has ever had", capable of generating enough electricity for every home and business in the country several times over.
But while the Pentland Firth has been too deep and too dangerous to exploit, the race is now on to develop machines that will harness this "underwater hurricane" and fundamentally change Scotland.


Rest of the article HERE (http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=982522007#new)

Interesting article, however for once I see myself agreeing with Friends of the Earth, if this goes ahead there will be a lot of energy removed from the Firth and what is the knock on effect of that for the environment?

[peter macdonald]

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/06/12_megawatts_wo.php

Here is a picture of the scheme which is going in service in Ireland and if you notice the turbine moves about one tenth of the speed of a ships prop so I dont think there will be much danger to marine mammals
I really hope this works as it will help make Scotland self sufficent in energy ie We wont have to be dependant on the political quagmires of the middle east Nigeria etc etc for our energy That is unless some of the full time I will object to anything "eco nutters" get in the way and we end up bankrupt paying for finite fossil fuels
PM
PS As regards the amount of energy in the firth ...just stand up at Duncansby Head and just watch he tidal streams on a calm day It is awesome

[MadPict]

Funny how these creatures have evaded submarines drift nets wrecks pipelines and their own kind (when in preditary mode) etc etc over the years Somebody wrote on here about whales not crossing undersea cables .what utter tosh a wee look at whale migration routes and where cables are laid across the Pacific and Atlantic will disprove that without doubt Hence you get marine mammals using the Pentland firth across 2 cables one in use and one disused ...Its the same in the Moray Firth
Mad Pict give the creatures a little credit for the intelligence they have used since their evolution....

Sorry but thats life (and death)
PM

Oh Peter, I do hope you are not reincarnated as a Dolphin or Porpoise or other intelligent ocean dwelling mammal. You mention drift nets? What about all the poor creatures tangled in drift nets, drowned and wrapped in nylon net, cutting into their flesh as they writhed to try and free themselves.

Don't believe it happens?
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/648042.stm

Ahh, no - that must just be a old wifes tale - they are far too clever not to be able to see fine filament nets hanging in the sea like a wall catching the very thing they depend on to live. Fish. The fish swim into the nets and maybe even through them, but alas poor old Flipper can't detect the nets on their sonar, which is how they hunt and navigate their way around the oceans.

http://www.wdcs.org/dan/publishing.nsf/allweb/3B15A6B48F1921FF802568FF0031C398

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2996728.stm

http://www.loupers.com/cetaceanecology.html

I do attribute these creatures with great intelligence (sometimes more than humans) but unfortunately they didn't cover 'Net Safety' at Cetacean College....

[disgust]

[Kenn]

Hope this proves to be a great success it's about time we started looking seriously to the sea to provide energy, just hope that the funding will be forthcoming and that it won't be another great idea that gets sunk.

[peter macdonald]

Mad pict it is a real shame that these events happen at sea As a now keen viewer of marine mammals and someone who has also eaten whale meat (legally at the time ) I also reason that the guys who shoot those drift nets are there to make a living and provide a food source for us humans You can look at this in many ways but as long as people want to eat fish then there is a price whether it is undersized fish who could not escape the cod end or marine mammals but that is the way it works As I said plankton ..little fish ..big fish.. bigger fish etc possibly human at the end of the chain
Put it this way the idiots from Greenpeace "Save the cod "who were endangering peoples lives off Shetland should instead have been asking the fishermen how they felt shovelling all the cod they were catching back over the side because some politician told them to This is the same cod that had been left to grow by the fishermen during quota restrictions!!!Unfortunately Greenpeace have not realised or done their research well enough to know that the North sea fishery is a mixed fishery and its impossible to filter out one species unless it is very small physically It is how things work in the sea love it or hate it
However there is a heck of a difference between putting out drift nets and getting a very low percentage of mammals stuck in the net and this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/974656.stm

So i hope Mad pict you dont have any Nissans Toshibas Mitsubushi etc products around the house Unlike the Dutch rep at the IWC conference a few years ago who lambasted the Faroese for whaling ..after driving up to the conference in a Nissan
PM
ps One Shetland boat dumped aprox 20 tonnes of cod his last trip as no matter where he fished he just caught cod in with the other species

[MadPict]

Idiots from Greenpeace?

Hmmmm...................

[horseman]

tugmistess,thought of this possibility before, hope it bears fruit.

yoda- pentland firth-nature-removing energy from the firth puzzled by that one:confused

[Tubthumper]

I thought that two of the reasons Caithness was not in the running for new nuclear power generation were:
1. The grid connection wasn't capable of coping with the power.
2. The substantial losses involved in transmission to the areas of use
Surely this proposal means 'our' grid connection is either already capable of handling the power or will have to be significantly reinforced and that the distance involved is not an issue after all. Or does renewable electricity have different characteristices to that of nuclear electricity?
In either case, why is the option for new nuclear power generation in the area being written off based on these premises?

[Tubthumper]

yoda- pentland firth-nature-removing energy from the firth puzzled by that one:confused
I guess Newton's old thing about the conservation of energy could come into play. Put big enough turbines on the sea floor, the energy harvested will be subtracted from the tidal flows, could we affect the way the atlantic ocean works?
Take the theory a stage further - If we put enough wind turbines up, could we reduce the amount of wind in the county???
Of course, when I say 'we', it won't be we in the County who benefit in any way from any such devices, will it?

[peter macdonald]

Mad pict I used to be a Greenpeace supporter and contributed some pennies to the cause before they lost the plot and got more into publicity stunts than conservation
As for my comment about the Save the Cod effort then please go and consult or talk to all sides of the fishing industry ..fishermen scientists fishery officers who will all tell you the same story -that there is cod in abundance in that area and mature cod at that but because of political indifference stupidity call it what you like hundreds of tons of dead cod are being thrown over the side into the sea .So what do Greenpeace do they risk the lives of the fishermen who have been telling all who will listen that there is a problem !!! Why dont they lobby the politicians easy they dont get the publicity and lose out on donations whilst giving a false representation of the facts
A Banff skipper asked if it was OK to land the fish which are dead anyway and give it to charity but was told it would count off his quota and he would be charged for illegal landings if did so Madness but hey its more sexy to pick on the fishermen than talk to the guys who made to rules in a grey room in Westminster
PM

[Royster1911]

And what makes people think that ANY cash made from this venture will be given back to Scotland (Caithness)? Remember Oil! Still in our back yard but of little benifit to Scotland.[evil]

[MadPict]

Peter,
My opinion of the fish quota system is about as low as a flounders belly.
I totally agree that the UK fishermen are subject to ridiculous EU rules and that tons of pefectly good fish is heaved back over board to feed the gulls.
The fact that other fishing nations seem to be able to hoover up everything while our fleets are being mothballed or scrapped just shows how our governments have been happy to roll over to appease the bureaucrats in Brussels.

But the fish stocks do have to be protected. We cannot keep taking from the seas in the volumes we do without allowing the stocks to replenish.
It would be like the owner of a trout lake allowing fishermen to catch and keep everything. In the end it would become void of fish.
The net mesh sizes have being increased to try and allow young fish to slip through. The only ones who seem to abide by that rule are the UK fishermen.
But the UK fishermen are guided by their own interests - they have boats to run/pay for, crew to pay and bills coming in. Of course they are going to say one thing while it looks like their living is at risk.
"Och there's plenty o' fish in the sea..."

The tobacco industry defended the sale of tobacco even after it was proved it caused cancer and heart disease. They were not going to say, "Yep, fair enough, we'll stop making cigarettes"....

No, they just target developing nations where the health concerns are not yet highlighted.


Greenpeace may have become nothing but a publicity stunt machine to you but to class them as idiots is insulting. On the whole they are very intelligent and well qualified individuals - not mindless thugs or idiots. And without the 'publicity stunts' many of the old 'practices' may well still be in use today. They may not appeal to your support any longer but they bring things to the notice of the public who might not know what is being done by companies/governments.

And they do lobby governments - just because it is not as high profile as sailing a boat between a whaler and it's target....

[peter macdonald]

The fact that other fishing nations seem to be able to hoover up everything while our fleets are being mothballed or scrapped just shows how our governments have been happy to roll over to appease the bureaucrats in Brussels.

not the case please look at the decommisioning figures of the Danish Dutch and Spanish fishing efforts both in vessels and tonnage

The net mesh sizes have being increased to try and allow young fish to slip through. The only ones who seem to abide by that rule are the UK fishermen.

not so all EU vessels have minimum size nets for the species they licenced for Enforcement of this is done rigourously Ask the fishermen/fishery officers anywhere in Europe This is not just in the EU but also look at the situation in Iceland and the Faroes

But the UK fishermen are guided by their own interests - they have boats to run/pay for, crew to pay and bills coming in. Of course they are going to say one thing while it looks like their living is at risk.
"Och there's plenty o' fish in the sea..."

Maybe the view 20 years ago but that has changed Oh yes these guys are not angels but they recognise that if there is to be along term future then they have to look long term You cant pay a boat in a year

Greenpeace may have become nothing but a publicity stunt machine to you but to class them as idiots is insulting

OK what do you call people who endanger other peoples lives by trying to interfere with fishing vessels whilst towing their gear This from a rubber boat north of Shetland Just think if a warp had snagged ??? Aye idiots and pretty selfish ones at that
PM

[peter macdonald]

Bearing in mind your posts re renewable energy ie dont like wind wave turbines etc What type of energy would YOU like to see as powering Scotland in the future ?????????????

[Green_not_greed]

Re what should power Scotland, I'm all for a sensible blend of technologies that deliver when needed. Including tidal power.

However, I really don't believe that Caithness or Scotland should be producing a stack of additional generation for users who live largely in the Midlands and Home Counties. The Victorians got it right when they built the first large power stations in and near the cities, 'cos that's where the power is needed.

[MadPict]

Didnt say I dont like them - I just think that wind turbines are better off shore or located where they will provide power for local communities in smaler sized turbines which will blend into the countryside moreso than the 30 or 40 per site blots on the landscape which are being forced through at any opportunity.

The wave energy generators need to be designed with the denizens of the deep in mind - the one linked to in the OP depicts two huge sets of blades with no apparent way of stopping anything swimming into them (hence my "blended Orca" remark).
The type of wave generators which don't present a hazard to cetaceans are cool with me.
The recent episode of Coast which featured the system at Billia Croo in Orkney where they are testing new wave and tidal energy systems. Pelamis, is a long, cylindrical structure with hinge joints. Inside the hinged joints are oil filled pumps, as each wave passes, it forces oil through motors which drive generators, to produce power.
Pelamis is now the prototype for four new machines to be deployed next year. That system as far as I can see seems pretty benign as far as impact on wildlife goes.

So I am not totally anti renewable energy, as I have always stated, if you cared to read back over previous posts by me on the topic.

[peter macdonald]

"I just think that wind turbines are better off shore "
Why do you make the distinction between spoiling a sea scape and the country side ??? considering almost all of Caithness east of Spital Hill can see the sea ...Also with your concerns about the marine environment Im surprised you want all those cables and anchors all over the sea bed The ones used to anchor the turbines are one thing but the interconnectors to the mainland will have to be pretty big Also have you thought about the damage to birdlife ?? or do the birds who feed offshore dont count as much as the ones onshore at for example Spittal or Yarrows or what ever they call it

PM
PS The last dead whale i saw was lying south of Wick it had drowned due to the poor thing getting its self caught in a static device called a creel tow
It was a small minke if I remember I didnt look to see if it was male or female
My point static devices can be as big if not bigger threat to marine mammals as non static such as turbines hence you dont sea too many whales or porpoises getting caught up in ships propellors

[MadPict]

It appears from your post above you know little to nothing about the construction of off shore wind turbines.

I'm not going to bother educating you on the benefits of placing wind farms off shore compared to on shore.

You can Google it as far as I am concerned. Probably where you get the rest of your information...........

[Tubthumper]

Getting back to the basics here, but is anyone wise in the technicalities of grid interconnection, or of local grid creation?
Question: How much more capacity does our local grids (at 3 and 11kV) have to accomodate all the power generated by wind and tidal power, how is this power 'transferred' onto the big (250kV?) grid and, rather than this power being swallowed up into the national grid (lining the pockets of shareholders and local landowners), is it possible to set up a local grid company, creating power for local people (as per the Wick heating project)?

[George Brims]

Interesting article, however for once I see myself agreeing with Friends of the Earth, if this goes ahead there will be a lot of energy removed from the Firth and what is the knock on effect of that for the environment?
Well here is what is happening now, every day. The moon pulls (via gravity) a bulge in the world's oceans on the side facing the moon (and pulls the earth itself more than the water on the other side, so there's a bulge on the other side too). As the earth rotates the bulges travel around, producing tides. Now if you observe very carefully you will notice high tide isn't quite at the same time the moon is overhead (or directly under your feet). This is because the rotation of the earth drags the bulges around, due to friction between the moving water and the sea bed. The end result is that year by year the earth is rotating slightly slower. Also as the off-center bulge is also pulling on the moon, the moon is rotating faster. In some billions of years (I forget how long it's predicted to be), a month and a day will be the same length and the moon will stay overhead in the same place all the time. This is called tidal locking. The gravitational pull of the earth also distorts the rocks forming the moon in the same way, so tidal locking has already ensured we only ever see one side of the moon. For the same reason, Pluto and its moon Charon always face each other the same way.

So the answer to Yoda's question is the knock on effect is the days will get longer (!), as the tidal energy devices will effectively increase the drag between the water and the solid earth. The good news is it is going to be by an infinitesimal amount. I see a truly horrid physics final exam question coming on!

[peter macdonald]

Mad pict what do you mean ??? I dont know anything and need to google for info ??Aye like every body else I use the facility However I am very inclined to ask people about what I dont know or even read in the P and J how the Beatrice wind farm is to be engineered As for my limited knowledge of how the sea around caithness works I was lucky enough to be brought up in an environment where our living depended on the food source being harvested on it ...I have maintained enough contacts with people who are true experts on the state of the sea around the north of Scotland from all sides fishermen scientists fishery officers and even the politicians and I have a brass enough neck to go ask what I dont know
And beleive me there is a lot more knowledge about the Moray Firth etc in these guys than you will find in google
PM
I noticed you never answered my question about Japanese products
Good Bye and Good Night

[horseman]

I guess Newton's old thing about the conservation of energy could come into play. Put big enough turbines on the sea floor, the energy harvested will be subtracted from the tidal flows, could we affect the way the atlantic ocean works?
Take the theory a stage further - If we put enough wind turbines up, could we reduce the amount of wind in the county???
Of course, when I say 'we', it won't be we in the County who benefit in any way from any such devices, will it?

I have to say, you have got me there!!'Could we affect the way the atlantic ocean works? Must say i diden't think that one thru.Cheers mate I must say I like your input...:)