PDA

View Full Version : Food for thought...



jjc
13-Jun-05, 12:55
It doesn't happen often (and when it does it's not very successful) but I've been thinking…

Down South, in the land of plenty, petrol is cheap… too cheap. I don't mean that from a tree-hugging, khaki-wearing environmentalist's point of view (although I can't say I disagree with it); I mean that petrol is too cheap for the franchise owners to make money from it. Instead the fuel is simply the draw to pull customers onto the forecourt with the actual profit coming from the bread, milk, chocolate, magazines and other assorted rubbish that you have to walk past on your way to the till.

Now compare your average petrol station in a place like Glasgow with the petrol stations you have in Caithness. Spot the difference? How many of your forecourts come complete with a small supermarket? How many of them have a full newsagent-sized magazine rack? In-store bakery or coffee-shop?

That I can think, the answer is zero!

And here's why… because you are fortunate enough to still have your local shops. If you need a pint of milk you go to them because they are convenient… but there's a cost to that convenience: petrol is going to cost a little more. On the plus-side, you don't need to jump in your car and use that petrol every time you run out of bread or want the daily paper.

So you think that petrol will be cheaper if Tesco comes?

Of course it will be. They'll be able to shave a few pence off the competitions' prices because they can balance any losses they make on the petrol against added profits in their supermarket. The only way that the 'established' petrol stations will be able to compete will be to lower their own prices, but then they'll stop making profit on the fuel so they'll need to start offering you those little extras – bread, milk, magazines… you know the drill.

But if they're going to start doing that then they are going to have to compete against your local shops for your custom. Not a problem, right? I mean, how many of you will actually go to the garage for milk or bread? A few percent? No biggie to the local shops… except that the local shops are now also competing against Tesco and that's going to hurt. Those few who just buy the milk when they top-up the tank could be the difference between scraping by and going to the wall.

So now the local shops start to close their doors and board up their windows and you're left with Tesco and the garages. At least you've still got a bit of choice, right? Wrong. This is when Tesco start giving you vouchers with your shopping. Spend £50 on your groceries and get 2p off every litre of petrol. Spend £100 and get 4p off. So the custom at your local garage dries up as you all head off to Tesco to save a bit of money. One by one your local petrol pumps get turned off and the staff get laid-off until one morning you wake up and realise that the only place left to fill up your tank is Tesco.

Worse, the manager at Tesco knows this too and starts adding a couple of pence to the cost of a litre, takes all of the money-off vouchers out of the tills and starts to order less of the 'normal' unleaded and more of the 'super' unleaded because he knows that when there's no other option you've got to pay those extra 10 pence for each litre.

But that just means you're back where you started, right? At least you got a year or two of cheap petrol out of it, and look-see you've got a whole lot more choice in your groceries… so there's no real harm done.

Except that your local shops are gone so when you want to buy a pint of milk you need to get in your car and spend some more money on petrol. And what of those who don't have cars? They've either got to make their trip to the shops by bus or taxi. If they take the bus they've got to go more often because they can't carry a whole week's shopping home, so they go by taxi.

But we're talking about people who don't own cars. These are generally people at the poorer end of our society, people who don't have £5 or £10 a week for a taxi… so they need to pay for the taxi out of their food budget and that means they have to cut back on food.

Look at the cheaper foods the next time you're out shopping. Look at the ingredients. Notice anything? Sugar, fat and additives. There's a reason why cheaper foods are cheaper, and now we have a growing section of society who can't afford better. The health-divide widens.

Still, most of us are okay so it's all been worth it, hasn't it? Whilst we sit at home wondering that, has it occurred to us that Tesco sells more CDs and DVDs than Woolworths? That it sells more toiletries than Boots and Superdrug combined? That it sells decent clothes at low prices? That it sells books? That it sells stationery and greetings cards? Pots, pans, cutlery, crockery, glassware?

The next time you're in town look about you. How many of the shops that you see do you suppose would be in difficulty if even 10% of the shoppers stopped coming into town on a regular basis because they could get everything at Tesco? How many of them do you think would still be open a year after Tesco opens its doors? And once a few have closed, even fewer people will want to go into town to do their shopping and the pressure on the rest will simply mount.

You know, I have to ask… are you sure you want a new Tesco? :eek:

armi
13-Jun-05, 13:27
************************************************** *********************But we're talking about people who don't own cars. These are generally people at the poorer end of our society, people who don't have £5 or £10 a week for a taxi… so they need to pay for the taxi out of their food budget and that means they have to cut back on food.
************************************************** *********************

You really should get out more. I do not drive through choice, I have never been interested in driving.

However my income is exceedingly good. You should not make such generalisations.

You have to get out more and move with the times. Garages have been providing goods, other than petrol for years.

Supermarket petrol prices are on average 1.3p less than the UK garage average. Why do you think they will buck the trend if Tesco open in Wick?

katarina
13-Jun-05, 13:40
It doesn't happen often (and when it does it's not very successful) but I've been thinking…
Instead the fuel is simply the draw to pull customers onto the forecourt with the actual profit coming from the bread, milk, chocolate, magazines and other assorted rubbish that you have to walk past on your way to the till. :

That sure is a powerful amount of thinking you've been doing there jjc. Profit on those things you mention - don't make me laugh! Why do you think the fast vanishing corner shops stay open from dawn to dusk and sell on the slate? that is the only way they can make a meagre profit.


The only way that the 'established' petrol stations will be able to compete will be to lower their own prices, but then they'll stop making profit on the fuel so they'll need to start offering you those little extras – bread, milk, magazines… you know the drill. :

You mean they will make less proft. Elm tree garage already sells milk , sweets and groceries.


But we're talking about people who don't own cars. These are generally people at the poorer end of our society, people who don't have £5 or £10 a week for a taxi… so they need to pay for the taxi out of their food budget and that means they have to cut back on food.:

There's no where in Wick that a shop, garage(when they start selling groceries), or supermarket is not within walking distance. Although I have a car i quite often walk myself for the exercise.


You know, I have to ask… are you sure you want a new Tesco?.:

You're dam right I do!

Drutt
13-Jun-05, 13:53
But we're talking about people who don't own cars. These are generally people at the poorer end of our society, people who don't have £5 or £10 a week for a taxi… so they need to pay for the taxi out of their food budget and that means they have to cut back on food.
You really should get out more. I do not drive through choice, I have never been interested in driving.

However my income is exceedingly good. You should not make such generalisations.
I think you missed the point. There are over 30 million cars in the UK. Generally, we're obsessed with having a car. Generally, it would be reasonable to believe that there may be a financial factor for a large proportion of those households without cars. The generalisation, within its context, seemed fair. Your personal situation is not relevant.


You have to get out more and move with the times. Garages have been providing goods, other than petrol for years.
I think you missed the point again. Garages in Caithness do not have mini-supermarkets/coffee shops/delis attached as garages further south often do. This means that garages in Caithness are forced to make their profits from petrol sales rather than from groceries or refreshments.


Supermarket petrol prices are on average 1.3p less than the UK garage average. Why do you think they will buck the trend if Tesco open in Wick?
I think you missed the point of the entire post. That Tesco has the power to undercut all other retailers with which it will compete makes it a very dangerous proposition for the economies in the town centres. Is the saving of 1.3p per litre worthwhile if half the town centre shops might close? And once Tesco has managed to put all the other garages out of business, and there is no competition, why would it bother keeping prices low? What incentive would there be?

Drutt
13-Jun-05, 14:02
It doesn't happen often (and when it does it's not very successful) but I've been thinking…
Instead the fuel is simply the draw to pull customers onto the forecourt with the actual profit coming from the bread, milk, chocolate, magazines and other assorted rubbish that you have to walk past on your way to the till. :

That sure is a powerful amount of thinking you've been doing there jjc. Profit on those things you mention - don't make me laugh! Why do you think the fast vanishing corner shops stay open from dawn to dusk and sell on the slate? that is the only way they can make a meagre profit.
I see you're quoting jjc out of context there, katarina. He said that down south the garages can keep petrol prices low because they tend to have mini-supermarkets and coffee shops. How much do you think it costs a garage to produce a Starbucks latte in a cardboard cup? Not a lot. But they can still sell it for £2.50 - £3 down south. Garages in Caithness don't have these luxuries, and are forced to make their profits from petrol.



The only way that the 'established' petrol stations will be able to compete will be to lower their own prices, but then they'll stop making profit on the fuel so they'll need to start offering you those little extras – bread, milk, magazines… you know the drill. :

You mean they will make less proft. Elm tree garage already sells milk , sweets and groceries.
You missed it again. Down south, most garages have mini-supermarkets, and don't attempt to make their profits from petrol but from groceries.



But we're talking about people who don't own cars. These are generally people at the poorer end of our society, people who don't have £5 or £10 a week for a taxi… so they need to pay for the taxi out of their food budget and that means they have to cut back on food.:

There's no where in Wick that a shop, garage(when they start selling groceries), or supermarket is not within walking distance. Although I have a car i quite often walk myself for the exercise.
Mind out for that low-flying point! If Tesco moves in on the outskirts of town, and puts all other retailers out of business, you may not have a shop, garage or supermarket within walking distance. That is when people are forced to drive or take taxis to buy food.



You know, I have to ask… are you sure you want a new Tesco?.:

You're dam right I do!
That's your prerogative, but don't say nobody warned you. :D

jjc
13-Jun-05, 14:09
You really should get out more.
A good start to your first ever post here… you should be proud! [disgust]


I do not drive through choice, I have never been interested in driving.

However my income is exceedingly good. You should not make such generalisations.
That's nice for you, Armi… that you have the 'exceedingly good' income to enable you to make that choice must be quite reassuring.

71% of households in the UK have one or more cars/vans. If you break the nation up into households by income you'll see quite a pattern:

Lowest 10% = 22% car/van ownership
Second decile group = 35% car/van ownership
Third decile group = 47% car/van ownership
Fourth decile group = 66% car/van ownership
Fifth decile group = 77% car/van ownership
Sixth decile group = 83% car/van ownership
Seventh decile group = 91% car/van ownership
Eigth decile group = 92% car/van ownership
Ninth decile group = 95% car/van ownership
Highest 10% = 96% car/van ownership

Just 12% of pensioners living alone on a state pension have cars/vans.

(figures from the ONS Family Expenditure Survey 1999-2000)

Perhaps it is you, not I, who needs to 'get out more' if you truly believe that vehicle ownership is not related to income… :roll:


Supermarket petrol prices are on average 1.3p less than the UK garage average. Why do you think they will buck the trend if Tesco open in Wick?
I don't… clearly you missed the point of my previous post.

DrSzin
13-Jun-05, 14:11
Oh no, not more petty unjustified nit-picking! Armi, look at what jjc actually said:

But we're talking about people who don't own cars. These are generally people at the poorer end of our society [...]
What jjc said is correct. He wasn't talking about the minority of people who have exceedingly good incomes, but choose not to drive. I have a half-decent income and I have two cars, one of which is a wee efficient town car and the other is a top-of-the-range sporty hatchback. Should jjc have drawn attention to my individual position too?

The level of presumptuousness on this board is reaching epidemic proportions, and the petty bickering that results has led to at least one thread being deleted, and (arguably) to locks being put on several others. And that's just in the last few days. Could we please stop jumping at each others' throats over trivia? Let's be nice to each other! I hope the new moderation system helps in this regard -- we'll find out soon enough, I guess.

Let's discuss serious topics in a friendly non-confrontational way -- please! :D

Having said all that, I'm not (yet?) convinced by jjc's arguments. I live 50 metres away from a corner shop and I buy milk, rolls, newspapers, etc, there. There are several other corner shops within 10 minutes' walk of my house. I can also buy cheap(ish) petrol at my local Sainsburys, Tesco, and Morrisons. On the other hand, the economics would likely be very different in a small town like Wick, so I am not 100% convinced of my own argument. Puts thinking cap back on...

Rheghead
13-Jun-05, 14:17
I agree with all the bickering, it is totally uncalled for. I live in Reay and the fuel there is probably the highest in Caithness but I still buy it from there. And some of the food is about 30% higher in price but I still shop there. I guess I am a real home buddy who rarely goes out of the village. I send my better half out on the big shopping trips instead. :evil

Drutt
13-Jun-05, 14:22
I agree with all the bickering, it is totally uncalled for. I live in Reay and the fuel there is probably the highest in Caithness but I still buy it from there. And some of the food is about 30% higher in price but I still shop there.
And I applaud you for that. I do believe we need to value our local shops and pass some of our business their way, even though their prices are higher.

If all we do is seek out out the bargains at the big supermarkets, we'll only have ourselves to blame when there is no corner shop or garage nearby.

DrSzin
13-Jun-05, 14:36
Forgot to say...

There are lots of small corner shops in cities -- I don't think my neighborhood is exceptional in this respect. My local corner shop is expensive, but it is sooo handy that I make an extra effort to support it.

I was wrong about one thing though -- I have just realised that neither of my local Morrisons sells petrol. :eyes But there's one a few miles away that does. :D

As for bickering...

The exchange of low-flying points between longstanding posters is one thing, but a cold outburst over a moot point is something quite different.

And, yeah, I know, I know, I could have been a bit nicer and a bit more welcoming to that historical pundit the other week...

jjc
13-Jun-05, 14:40
That sure is a powerful amount of thinking you've been doing there jjc.
I know… now I have a headache!


Profit on those things you mention - don't make me laugh!
In 2004 the average cost of a litre of petrol was 80.9p. Of that, 59.1p was duty and VAT. Typically, it cost 16.8p to buy the litre from the refiner. That leaves 5p in every litre for the franchisee. That 5p has to pay for transportation, storage, the running of the service station and marketing.

Between your bouts of laughter, perhaps you can tell me where the profit is in a litre?


You mean they will make less proft. Elm tree garage already sells milk , sweets and groceries.
Is that a few sweets and a fridge-full of milk a day, or as the mainstay of the business?

I used to live opposite a BP garage in Berkshire. They were open 24/7 and took three deliveries of stock a day. As well as four super-market style aisles of groceries, there was a seating area where customers of the 'wild bean café' could drink their coffee and eat their croissants (baked in-store) and three PCs for pay-per-minute web-access.

That was how they managed to sell petrol for less than 75ppl whilst you were all paying over 80ppl.


There's no where in Wick that a shop, garage(when they start selling groceries), or supermarket is not within walking distance. Although I have a car i quite often walk myself for the exercise.
Firstly, the whole point of my post was that once the competitive engine of Tesco chugs into life the shops and garages will start to close and, therefore, whether they are within walking distance or not is entirely irrelevant.

Secondly, whilst you may be gifted with strong legs and a fine backbone, not everybody is… what you consider to be within 'walking distance' is not necessarily walkable to everybody – particularly not the return journey when loaded down with carrier bags.


You're dam right I do!
Fair enough… I hope you enjoy it.

Drutt
13-Jun-05, 14:45
Having said all that, I'm not (yet?) convinced by jjc's arguments. I live 50 metres away from a corner shop and I buy milk, rolls, newspapers, etc, there. There are several other corner shops within 10 minutes' walk of my house. I can also buy cheap(ish) petrol at my local Sainsburys, Tesco, and Morrisons. On the other hand, the economics would likely be very different in a small town like Wick, so I am not 100% convinced of my own argument. Puts thinking cap back on...
I know what you mean about it being difficult to really pinpoint the potential impact of Tesco on a place like Caithness.

I live in a suburban area where the local shops, including the most divine deli, appear to be doing okay and I make an effort to do a reasonable amount of my shopping there.

On the other hand, I've done some reading about the scary effects that Wal-Mart has had on small-town America. The prospect of Tesco doing a similar thing to Caithness is alarming.

jjc
13-Jun-05, 15:03
I live 50 metres away from a corner shop and I buy milk, rolls, newspapers, etc, there. There are several other corner shops within 10 minutes' walk of my house.
I don't know, but I'd hazard a guess that most of the food available in the corner shops within 10 minutes' walk of your house falls outside of what would be considered 'healthy and nutritious'… ;)

I'm smiling, but it's a worrying trend… there are now entire areas of London considered to be 'food deserts' – areas where fresh and healthy food simply is not available.


There are lots of small corner shops in cities -- I don't think my neighborhood is exceptional in this respect. My local corner shop is expensive, but it is sooo handy that I make an extra effort to support it.

And there's the rub… you and I are fortunate – we live in decent areas and we can afford to support our local corner-shop. Mine has a fantastic range of organic produce from local farms and a selection of fresh-baked bread but it's a speciality shop and the prices reflect that.

The alternative is a local co-op with crisps and ready-meals or a drive/taxi to the 'local' Asda.

Is it possible that in our haste for convenience we've left some people behind? :(

DrSzin
14-Jun-05, 13:23
I live 50 metres away from a corner shop and I buy milk, rolls, newspapers, etc, there. There are several other corner shops within 10 minutes' walk of my house.
I don't know, but I'd hazard a guess that most of the food available in the corner shops within 10 minutes' walk of your house falls outside of what would be considered 'healthy and nutritious'… ;)
It's not too bad actually. There's an excellent greengrocer, a tolerable grocery/general store, and a half-decent bakery. However, the local corner shop is primarily a newsagent, and much of its foodstock is of limited quality -- at best.




There are lots of small corner shops in cities -- I don't think my neighborhood is exceptional in this respect. My local corner shop is expensive, but it is sooo handy that I make an extra effort to support it.

And there's the rub… you and I are fortunate – we live in decent areas and we can afford to support our local corner-shop. Mine has a fantastic range of organic produce from local farms and a selection of fresh-baked bread but it's a speciality shop and the prices reflect that.

Fortunate indeed. But can we swap corner shops anyway?


Is it possible that in our haste for convenience we've left some people behind? :(
Of course it is...

But I still think there are too many "what ifs" in your Wick Tesco hypothesis. I think I would be more than willing to take the chance.

I haven't shopped in Wick for years, but I often visit comparable Scottish small towns, and their local shops and supermarkets are very often abysmal. Indeed, many of them stock little more than the prepackaged convenience foods you are so scathing about.

Having said that, someone on here was less than complementary about the Tesco in Aviemore recently. I would agree. I shopped there a few times last summer and there wasn't a great deal of choice of fresh foods. It was ok, but nowhere near as good as a standard city Tesco.

Dali
14-Jun-05, 14:03
Well jjc were is this decent area you live in. And if it is not caithness what are you bothered about if we get a tesco ?
Maybe if the shops here gave us some variety and got some new items in stock now and then .Alot of us would not shop in inverness and want a tesco.

jjc
14-Jun-05, 16:24
Well jjc were is this decent area you live in. And if it is not caithness what are you bothered about if we get a tesco ?
Ah, the old "you don't live here anymore so shut it" argument... very good :roll:

Look out of your window. Go on, step away from your PC and take a look – I'll wait here…

.
.
.

You're back? Nice view? Any fields?

When Rover closed its doors earlier this year and 5,000 workers lost their jobs we saw a week of intense media coverage and the DTI started an investigation. In the last two years some 20,000 of the UK farmers who work the fields you see out of your window left the industry. 20,000! And that's just the UK – across Europe 200,000 farmers left the industry in 1999 alone.

Whilst not all of these cases can be laid at the supermarket companies' doors, a lot of them certainly can be.

Wal-Mart (owner of Asda) takes $1billion through its tills daily. I'm going to say that again – Wal-Mart takes $1billion through its tills every single day! The buying power of a company so staggeringly huge is phenomenal and the farmers feel it.

Supermarkets now operate on a just-in-time stock system. Instead of holding large amounts of stock – especially of perishable produce – they push flexible orders onto the suppliers. Farmers can find themselves suddenly (as in mere hours before the order is to be shipped) having to find additional lettuces because today was warm and we were all in the mood for salad. Equally, it could have been a windy, cold day and we were in the mood for something a little warmer. Suddenly the same farmer has half his crop of lettuces picked and ready to ship when the supermarket decide they only need a quarter of them. Failure to deliver the extra requirement or daring to ask for compensation for the unwanted (but now harvested) produce results in de-listing (no more orders from supermarkets) so farmers just have to do as they are told… and often the only way of doing that is to use more chemicals in the fields to be sure a bumper harvest.

More chemicals are needed to make sure that the produce passes the screening process too. You think that apples naturally grow so uniformly, that mushrooms are supposed to be so round and white, that you can grow such smooth potatoes in your back garden? No, these are the result of chemicals being added to your food so that it looks nice when it hits the shelf.

And it doesn't stop there. Supermarkets regularly ask their suppliers for payments for marketing campaigns (even when the campaign has nothing to do with the product being supplied) and the suppliers have to meet the costs of any 2-for-1 deals or special offers that the supermarkets impose. Suppliers are even asked (although a 'no' doesn't stop the money being deducted from future payments) for contributions towards profits – nothing short of backhanders into the supermarket's coffers for the privilege of supplying them.

Why don't the farmers simply sell their goods elsewhere? For a start, supermarkets are the biggest market. But even if they did want to supply to other buyers, they've got to get the produce there. Several years ago supermarkets started demanding the prices of goods to be quoted without the cost of shipping. The supermarkets could then decide which was more economical – to have the supplier deliver the goods or for one of their own lorries to pick the goods up on the way back from making a stock delivery to a nearby store. Guess which one usually works out cheapest! The result is that owning their own transporters is no longer feasible for most suppliers… which means that without the supermarkets they have no way of actually shipping product.

And it's not just UK farmers suffering under supermarkets. I think Drutt mentioned (in another thread) the selection of green beans in Kenya – where the beans are held up to wooden measures to ensure that they are the right length, diameter and straightness for our discerning eyes. The waste, up to 30% of the crop, is not returned to the farmer who could sell it on locally or feed it to his animals… the supermarkets simply throw it away. Tons of food is thrown away every day in countries where people are starving.

Of course, the food that does pass muster has to get here. With everything from strawberries to Artichokes now being sold year-round the old notion of 'seasons' has gone out the window. Instead our strawberries move around the world, growing wherever the climate is right, and simply get put on a cargo plane when we want them. Next time you fancy a strawberry ask yourself how many miles it has flown to reach you. How much oil did that strawberry use getting to your plate – and don't forget to include the oil used for the plastic wrapping it came in.

So sure, you can tell me to shut up because I don't live in Caithness… but go and look out of your window again. There's a whole world beyond that horizon and people you don't know and will never meet are literally dying so that a supermarket can give you straight beans and cheap petrol. [disgust]

squidge
14-Jun-05, 16:44
wow jjc Thats the best post i have read in ages.

it is appalling that whilst half the world starve whilst half the world throw food away - appalling

whilst the power of the supermarkets is awesome and a worrying trend I can understand the desire to have a tesco in wick. We will just have to see what happens

Dali
15-Jun-05, 01:00
Well all that is nice jjc but what has this to do with other things you have posted .
1 min you say save the corner shop then another you are saying the food there
falls outside of what would be considered 'healthy and nutritious' .
And the shops by you has a fantastic range of organic produce from local farms and a selection of fresh-baked bread but it's a speciality shop.

So are you trying to make us support our local shops or just be unhappy that ours are not as good as yours.
As we must not live in a decent area.as you point out .
So look out your own window go on .
Instead of the I have everything i want were i live .so i want my old town to be just like it was when i left so i can visit it sindrome .

Gus
15-Jun-05, 02:03
Some more food for thought....

I used to work in a Tesco Petrol Station down south. Every week our petrol prices were compared to the 3 other petrol station's which were within 3 miles or so of the store, then lowered accordingly to fit in with the "lowest price" directive they were on at the time.

With the other Caithness petrol prices being what they are, there's a fat chance there's not going to be much in it.

mareng
15-Jun-05, 05:19
That sure is a powerful amount of thinking you've been doing there jjc.
I know… now I have a headache!


Profit on those things you mention - don't make me laugh!
In 2004 the average cost of a litre of petrol was 80.9p. Of that, 59.1p was duty and VAT. Typically, it cost 16.8p to buy the litre from the refiner. That leaves 5p in every litre for the franchisee. That 5p has to pay for transportation, storage, the running of the service station and marketing.

Between your bouts of laughter, perhaps you can tell me where the profit is in a litre?

.

You should be in politics! It sounds a really compelling argument when you say "That leaves 5p in every litre for the franchisee" I guess there are a lot of 5 pences in a week at a lot of the Caithness filling stations.

16.8 p to purchase, 21.8 p to sell.............. not a bad mark-up!

I think you could do better than to insult the efforts of someone joining their first forum, too.

jjc
15-Jun-05, 09:40
16.8 p to purchase, 21.8 p to sell.............. not a bad mark-up!
It wouldn't be… if it were profit.

As I said, those 5ps have to pay for transportation, storage, the running of the service station (which, incidentally, includes staffing costs) and marketing. In case you're wondering, the franchisee has to pay for all of the signage, including for the latest BP/Shell/Esso promotions in exactly the same way as a McDonald's franchisee has to pay for the Golden Arches and the toys for the Happy Meals.

So, as Katarina doesn't seem to be able to, perhaps you can tell me where the profit is in selling petrol?


I think you could do better than to insult the efforts of someone joining their first forum, too.
I assume that you are referring to Armi.

Firstly, I think you'll find that this is not Armi's first visit to this forum… simply the first under this particular pseudonym.

Secondly, if you think that starting your 'first' post in a forum by telling somebody to 'get out more' is acceptable (which, by your lack of criticism of his post, I can only assume you do) then I fail to see what part of my response to him you consider to be so 'insulting'.

Donnie
15-Jun-05, 09:51
Does anyone have any actual facts about the proposed building of a Tesco in wick? Most of the new Tesco stores I have seen recently have been the Tesco Extra stores. These are the small mini-mart/petrol station stores. Are we all just asuming Tesco are planning to build a large store or are their actual facts to back this up?

jjc
15-Jun-05, 10:21
Well all that is nice jjc
It is? Perhaps you and I have different understandings of what 'nice' means?


1 min you say save the corner shop then another you are saying the food there falls outside of what would be considered 'healthy and nutritious' .
Think about why most of the food in our corner shops is pre-packaged, processed and junk.

When we (and this is a general 'we') do our weekly shop we no longer go to the Butcher's, Baker's and Greengrocer's because it is far more convenient to get everything in one place – the supermarket. The local shops are no longer there to provide us with everything we need through the week, they are there to provide us with the odds and ends that we might run out of between trips to the supermarket. As a result their throughput is reduced and that means that what they put on their shelves has to cost them less and has to stay there a lot longer.

How do you save money on producing food whilst extending its shelf-life? You pump it full of water. To make sure that it retains the water you pump in you also have to add fats and starches. They don't taste too nice so you have to add some flavourings... salt is quite cheap. They also smell a little 'off' so you need some more additives to mask the smell. Oh, and starch and fat are pretty rank in the texture department so you're going to need a few more additives to sort that out. And don't forget the preservatives.

So yeah, save the corner shop by going there more often... and as you do you just might find that they are able to offer a better quality of product in the bargain.


So are you trying to make us support our local shops or just be unhappy that ours are not as good as yours.
Both.


Instead of the I have everything i want were i live .so i want my old town to be just like it was when i left so i can visit it sindrome .
Me me me me me me me… that's really what you think this is about, isn't it? How very sad for you. :(

Dali
15-Jun-05, 10:39
Oh stop it please the more you post the more foolish you sound .
It is all just you you you .
Supermarkets have been up here for a long time coop, prestos .
Not like it is a new thing is it ? Another one will only hurt the others into thinking of lowering there prices. And maybe provide a better range .
The corner shop has been around for many years more than the supermarket and has always provided poor quailty goods at huge prices. So not like they have not been supported for many many years.
It is not sad for me not sure why you would think so ?
All is happy for me i am not the one miles away crying about a tesco were he used to live .Cos he is selfish as he has the choice of many shops were he lives .
Get out more live your own life stop being worried about the rest of us .
We are fine without your guidence.
Now go on run along .

katarina
15-Jun-05, 11:10
In 2004 the average cost of a litre of petrol was 80.9p. Of that, 59.1p was duty and VAT. Typically, it cost 16.8p to buy the litre from the refiner. That leaves 5p in every litre for the franchisee. That 5p has to pay for transportation, storage, the running of the service station and marketing.

Between your bouts of laughter, perhaps you can tell me where the profit is in a litre?
.

Then in your superior wisdom, can you explain to us all, why any businessman would take on a petrol station at all? If what you're saying is fact, then it seems to me he'd be better off in a nine to five job!

Donnie
15-Jun-05, 11:16
Then in your superior wisdom, can you explain to us all, why any businessman would take on a petrol station at all? If what you're saying is fact, then it seems to me he'd be better off in a nine to five job!

I think he already has explained it. They usually make their money from higher petrol prices or by having a mini-mart built in to the petrol station. Although petrol stations in Caithness do sell the etras these are nothing compared to the ones down the line.

fluffybuffy
15-Jun-05, 12:48
From my own personal experience the only time I use a "corner"/"local" shop is for convenience for a pint of milk or bread etc if I run out and since I live in the country I still have to use petrol to get there!

I also know some people who do a bulk shop down in Inverness Tescos' once a fortnight or so and just buy daily essentials locally so wouldn't it be better if they at least spent their money in a Tescos' in the county which is employing local people therefore putting something back into the local economy rather than going south for groceries and filling up their petrol tanks?

Progress is inevitably and with the general economy in Caithness not looking particularly healthy with the run down of Dounreay and the closure (and potential closure) of other fairly large employers in the county, many people simply can't afford to go for the politically correct "support your local shops" option.

I don't know if it is likely to happen here - given that generally the public transport system in Caithness is diabolical - but with shops moving out of town then maybe it would be viable for buses to have these shops on local routes?

Ok now I'll sit back and wait for the attack......(that is how it works on this message board isn't it?)

jjc
15-Jun-05, 12:49
Supermarkets have been up here for a long time coop, prestos .
Yes, they have… but that doesn't mean that we should all just bury our heads in the sand and ignore the global consequences of our shopping habits – talk about 'me me me'! :roll:

Neither does it mean that another supermarket coming to the area will be good for the local economy. You'd either have to be pretty dense or pretty naïve to think that a Tesco would only compete with other supermarkets…


Another one will only hurt the others into thinking of lowering there prices. And maybe provide a better range
So which is it: dense or naïve?


The corner shop has been around for many years more than the supermarket and has always provided poor quailty goods at huge prices.
I think I see where the confusion is here… when you think of the 'corner shop' you think literally of the newsagent on the corner with crisps, pop and the occasional pint of milk. Swap 'corner' for 'local' and think of your butchers, bakers and yes, even candle-stick makers… dying trades under pressure from global corporations.


All is happy for me i am not the one miles away crying about a tesco were he used to live .Cos he is selfish as he has the choice of many shops were he lives .
Get out more live your own life stop being worried about the rest of us .
I can see I'm going to have to try and explain this as simply as I can in the hope that you understand…

You're right, I am being selfish here. I don't want to see another supermarket built in Caithness. I don't want to see one built in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester or London either. But that's got nothing to do with me trying to preserve a little piece of my childhood so I can enjoy long weekends in the country. I'm bothered about the further expansion of supermarkets because I, in my glorious selfishness, don't want to wake up in five years and find that all of my food is being supplied by a single corporation. Neither do I want that food to be stuffed full of chemicals and additives to the point where it is dangerous to eat – again, a little selfish. Also selfish is my desire not to have the deaths of starving children on my conscience.


Sorry everybody, I truly am a selfish person! And good on Dali for being so altruistic in his/her support of processed food and corporate greed! :roll:

jjc
15-Jun-05, 12:51
Progress is inevitably...
But the direction that progress takes is not...

fluffybuffy
15-Jun-05, 13:07
Are you not also forgetting that progress is also happening with the revival of farmers markets in many towns? Farmers like everyone else seem to be moving with the times and are supplying more speciality things like organic vegetables, wine, honey, meat etc?

I still use local butchershops for my meat and some other bits and pieces but I also prefer to do my "big" shop in a supermarket - it is convenient for me and the majority of people in Caithness and elsewhere I imagine. I tend to use Bews Butchers in Thurso and they have quite a range of products outwith the usual raw and cooked meats but I don't think I could afford to do my weekly shop there

I have to say that also in my personal experience the majority of people in Caithness who use taxis during the day are at what you would call the less well off end of the income scales. They appear perfectly well able to afford the taxis on a regular basis even when there are "town" bus services available. How do we explain this?

One final little personal bugbear - petrol prices....these are high everywhere when you look for the premium brands, ok so we in Caithness feel hard done by because we don't have any real choice it is expensive or expensive and no premium fuel is available!! This is a government tax issue that we should be campaigning against rather than the ranting on about individual garage owners. (hard hat firmly in place now) :eek:

katarina
15-Jun-05, 13:19
Then in your superior wisdom, can you explain to us all, why any businessman would take on a petrol station at all? If what you're saying is fact, then it seems to me he'd be better off in a nine to five job!

I think he already has explained it. They usually make their money from higher petrol prices or by having a mini-mart built in to the petrol station. Although petrol stations in Caithness do sell the etras these are nothing compared to the ones down the line.

Not every station sells enough extras to make much difference. Even further south.

katarina
15-Jun-05, 13:27
I also know some people who do a bulk shop down in Inverness Tescos' once a fortnight or so and just buy daily essentials locally so wouldn't it be better if they at least spent their money in a Tescos' in the county which is employing local people therefore putting something back into the local economy rather than going south for groceries and filling up their petrol tanks?

Ok now I'll sit back and wait for the attack......(that is how it works on this message board isn't it?)

I certainly won't attack you - i agree with every word you say. And although there might be a possibility of jjc's prophesies coming true, I would like to take the positive view and hope that the ripple effect will benefit the town.

jjc
15-Jun-05, 13:27
Not every station sells enough extras to make much difference. Even further south.
I can't think of a single garage within driving distance of me which does not have at least two aisles full of groceries.

However, as you are so positive that petrol is a profitable commodity you'll be able to answer my previous question... when the 5p income that a franchisee makes on a litre of petrol has to pay the runninc costs of the service station, marketing costs and the cost of transporting the fuel, where is the profit?

jjc
15-Jun-05, 13:35
progress is also happening with the revival of farmers markets in many towns? Farmers like everyone else seem to be moving with the times and are supplying more speciality things like organic vegetables, wine, honey, meat etc?
Absolutely... but their numbers are relatively few and don't nearly compete with the powerful supermarkets. Personally, I love my weekly trip to the farmer's market – FRESH seasonal vegetables, proper cuts of meat (even Ostrich) and some of the nicest cheeses I've tasted.


…it is convenient for me…

Is it possible that in our haste for convenience we've left some people behind? :(

katarina
15-Jun-05, 13:56
Not every station sells enough extras to make much difference. Even further south.
I can't think of a single garage within driving distance of me which does not have at least two aisles full of groceries.

However, as you are so positive that petrol is a profitable commodity you'll be able to answer my previous question... when the 5p income that a franchisee makes on a litre of petrol has to pay the runninc costs of the service station, marketing costs and the cost of transporting the fuel, where is the profit?

I'm afraid i don't have your inside information, so I cannot argue that your figures may not be correct. and we have filled up in small petrol stations that are only that, further south. I agree that the majority are going in for the supermarket thing - and why not if it boosts the profits, but they did start out as petrol stations. Also to get a correct figure I would have to know exactly how many litres of petrol does an average station sell in a week. Only then would i be able to answer your question.
There is not all that much profit on groceries and that is why most of our small shops are now almalgamated with Mace or Spar. Maybe you should look into the profit margin there too.
I would imagin most people would go to a supermarket for their weekly shop and fill up while they are there, if the supermarket happens to have a petrol station, rather than the other way round.
And yes it's disgusting the way the multi-nationals control everything for their own profit - but I am only a poor wee housewife whose got to make ends meet - so what can I do?

pie2000
15-Jun-05, 15:09
I am with you on this one jjc. Although i do do a big shop once or twice a month at our local supermarket i prefer to support the local bucher/baker as i have found that there prices can compete with the supermarket. The meat i get from the buchers is local and cheaper than the supermarket and the bread i get from the bakers is fresh baked every day with no additives or any other rubish in it. I personally prefer that to the plastic bread that the supermarkets usually stock that you really have no idea when it was baked :confused I am not against tesco coming as long as it does not affect our main street buisnesses that have all been around for many years after all i would not like to be without our local bakery pies!! :D

katarina
15-Jun-05, 17:32
I have to add, that I buy my bread from the local baker, and butcher meat from the local butcher for the same reasons as the post above. These are always busy, and I can't see it ever being different no matter how many supermarkets come to town. I also buy from the stalls set up in the market square on a saturday. I would like to see more such stalls selling fresh local produce - I'm sure they would be well supported.
And personally I don't have gripe about petrol, I get mine at the national average on my card anyway.

jjc
24-Jun-05, 12:57
Sorry to drag this one back up, but I thought some might find this interesting reading:

In Britain, supermarkets like Tesco grasp a rising share of the nation’s shopping basket, with nearly 2,000 stores in Britain alone and, by the end of 2004 almost 30 per cent of the supermarket sector. According to a report written by Alan Hallsworth of the University of Surrey for the Association of Convenience Stores in February 2005, "Tesco currently open one Express store each working day." As they expand, small general stores close at the rate of around one per day and specialist stores, like butchers, bakers and fishmongers, counted together shut at the rate of 50 per week between 1997 and 2002. (http://www.neweconomics.org/gen/uploads/t3zly355dpog3w55ctaiuu4506062005082504.pdf)

Also, I found this website (http://www.tescopoly.org)

katarina
24-Jun-05, 17:38
If it's coming it's coming. times are changing and if we don't move with them we will be left behind. Perhaps the owners of small shops should concider turning them into cafes to feed all the people these new shops are going to draw into the area - unless Tescos are going to have one of those as well......

Margaret M.
25-Jun-05, 00:26
In my opinion, retail chains have taken all the fun out of shopping. One can go to any city in the US and find all the same shops, restaurants, etc. Although it can be convenient to have everything under one roof, if given a choice I would opt for individual non-chain shops.

katarina
25-Jun-05, 12:19
I think a lot of people can identify with that. May small individual shops will still have their day. Going to a supermarker can be covenient, but for a day out, browsing round little quaint shops - so much more relaxing and interesting.

jjc
25-Jun-05, 13:41
If it's coming it's coming. times are changing and if we don't move with them we will be left behind
But we aren't at the whim of these changing times... rather we shape the direction in which they change. At the moment the majority of us put convenience above all else. Slowly, very slowly, that's changing. Why not give it a hand?


Perhaps the owners of small shops should concider turning them into cafes to feed all the people these new shops are going to draw into the area - unless Tescos are going to have one of those as well......
:roll:

golach
25-Jun-05, 16:28
In my opinion, retail chains have taken all the fun out of shopping.

FUN!!!!! only a female could envisage "Shopping" as FUN [disgust] [mad]

katarina
25-Jun-05, 18:40
Much as it sticks in my craw, I have to admit that perhaps jjc does have a point. however - If you and i take a stand and boycote the supermarkets - leaving ourselves the poorer by doing so - Will it make a blind bit of difference?

And are YOU going to boycote all multinationalists? Honestly?

jjc
25-Jun-05, 19:12
Much as it sticks in my craw, I have to admit that perhaps jjc does have a point.
:( Why should it stick anywhere? Play nice.


If you and i take a stand and boycote the supermarkets - leaving ourselves the poorer by doing so - Will it make a blind bit of difference?
It will to me and you. And I don't believe that it leaves me poorer in the long run. Idealistic? Yup, but true all the same... besides, if we all wait for somebody else to start then we're all just waiting.


And are YOU going to boycote all multinationalists? Honestly?
Nope. But then I don't have a problem with companies just because they are multinationals... that would be ridiculous. If, however, I find out that a company is behaving in a way which goes against what I consider to be morally right then yes, I will - and do - boycott them.

Margaret M.
25-Jun-05, 20:14
only a female could envisage "Shopping" as FUN

LOL, maybe fun was not the right word. Actually the only shopping I think is fun is when I'm on vacation somewhere and can find new and different things. With all the chains, it is becoming more difficult to find something unique.



I will - and do - boycott them

I try to also -- although they are usually a little more expensive, I now buy most of my groceries at the small health food stores. I prefer organic and wholesome, less processed options. I cannot remember the last time I set foot in a Walmart. Many times I'll go out of the city to shop at indivdually owned hardware stores, pharmacy, etc.

Drutt
25-Jun-05, 23:02
I cannot remember the last time I set foot in a Walmart.
Knowing what I know about Walmart, I applaud you for that. Sometimes there are more important issues to consider than convenience and cheap prices.

katarina
26-Jun-05, 22:28
[( Why should it stick anywhere? Play nice..

don't I always?