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j4bberw0ck
25-May-07, 15:31
There's rightly been discussion here and elsewhere about the treatment of Services personnel injured on active service.

This story (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=457426&in_page_id=1811%20), though just takes the damn biscuit and illustrates the appalling, unforgivable attitude of successive governments towards those who've served in this country's interests. We treat asylum seekers and suspected terrorists better than this.

It's shameful.

In 1944 this is what this country said about him:

The KING has been graciously pleased to approve the award of the VICTORIA CROSS to :- No. 10119 Rifleman Tullbahadur Pun, 6th Gurkha Rifles, Indian Army. In Burma on June 23rd, 1944, a Battalion of the 6th Gurkha Rifles was ordered to attack the Railway Bridge at Mogaung. Immediately the attack developed the enemy opened concentrated and sustained cross fire at close range from a position known as the Red House and from a strong bunker position two hundred yards to the left of it. So intense was this cross fire that both the leading platoons of 'B' Company, one of which was Rifleman Tul Bahadur Pun's, were pinned to the ground and the whole of his Section was wiped out with the exception of himself, the Section commander and one other man. The Section commander immediately led the remaining two men in a charge on the Red House but was at once badly wounded. Rifleman Tulbahadur Pun and his remaining companion continued the charge, but the latter too was immediately wounded. Rifleman Tulbahadur Pun then seized the Bren Gun, and firing from the hip as he went, continued the charge on this heavily bunkered position alone, in the face of the most shattering concentration of automatic fire, directed straight at him. With the dawn coming up behind him, he presented a perfect target to the Japanese. He had to move for thirty yards over open ground, ankle deep in mud, through shell holes and over fallen trees. Despite these overwhelming odds, he reached the Red House and closed with the Japanese occupations. He killed three and put five more to flight and captured two light machine guns and much ammunition. He then gave accurate supporting fire from the bunker to the remainder of his platoon which enabled them to reach their objective. His outstanding courage and superb gallantry in the face of odds which meant almost certain death were most inspiring to all ranks and beyond praise.

badger
25-May-07, 15:40
Sadly I would believe anything of Blair's government. My opinion of this is unprintable but I fear it is all too typical and not the first time they have turned their backs on the suffering of those who have served this country beyond the call of duty. Wonder how Blair would have behaved in similar circumstances.

NickInTheNorth
25-May-07, 15:44
Sadly I would believe anything of Blair's government. My opinion of this is unprintable but I fear it is all too typical and not the first time they have turned their backs on the suffering of those who have served this country beyond the call of duty. Wonder how Blair would have behaved in similar circumstances.
Leave the pathetic jibes at individuals out of this. Many governments have done many similar totally crass things. It is symptomatic of the whole sorry mess that passes for Government in this country and has done for many years and administrations.

It makes me truly ashamed to be British.

That a true hero can be treated like this in our names is shameful beyond measure. I wish there was an effective gesture that I could make to the officials that make these ridiculous decisions.

I am speechless.

Solus
25-May-07, 15:45
The government should hang their heads in shame !!

It has been a strong family tradition for familys to have sons enter into the Gurhka's with hundreds trying to gain a place. They have for many many years been shown to be amazingly proud and valiant soldiers for this country and first they had to battle for a decent pension and now this !! beggers belief:(

golach
25-May-07, 15:47
Sadly this has been going on longer than the Blair government, the Gurkhas have been treated worse than slaves, and they are some of the bravest and hardiest and even in their off duty clothes IMO the most smartly dressed soldiers in the British Army

Solus
25-May-07, 15:51
Exactly Golach, my grandfather on my fathers side was a RSM and he had nothing but praise for the Gurkha's, my father still has the Kukri my grandfather took back, in its sheath with four smaller kukri's on each corner .

NickInTheNorth
25-May-07, 15:56
Sadly this has been going on longer than the Blair government, the Gurkhas have been treated worse than slaves, and they are some of the bravest and hardiest and even in their off duty clothes IMO the most smartly dressed soldiers in the British Army

I agree totally. The Gurkhas are amongst the finest soldiers ever to grace British uniforms. They make the very best of friends, and the very worst of enemies. They have the respect and admiration of the military of virtually every nation on earth. Why they still clamour to serve this pathetic dunghill of a nation after what we have done to them over the years I will never know.

I am proud to have worked alongside them, and totally ashamed of yet another kick in the teeth offered to them by our government.

veekay
25-May-07, 19:19
Makes my blood boil. Is there nothing we can do to help. Canlt we let those in power know how we feel?

horseman
25-May-07, 19:52
I think there has been such a general outpouring about this that someone will be forced toget their butt into gear and do the right thing. But is this the general system or some no brain numpty with his head too far down? Cos as you said jabba it takes some believing.

Boozeburglar
25-May-07, 19:54
This is a sickening show of disrespect to a war hero.

I am personally disgusted, and will write a letter complaining about this.

It beggers belief.

These guys were amazing patriots; I remember my grandfather telling me about the times he went out drinking with some of these guys and got into fisticuffs, and how tough they were. Nothing but respect from me.

All the sons and daughters of our empire should be welcome here, it is no more than the French do.

Rheghead
25-May-07, 20:23
This guy is obviously a hero but he is a hero of India and the free world. He served in the Indian Army not the British Army. I know he got the VC but having a medal doesn't convey instant citizenship. There were thousands of brave soldiers who fought Japanese beligerence, not least the Americans. Should we give residence to them as well? They don't have an NHS either mind. Let us be right, Mr Pun was heroically fighting for the defence of India not Britain...

Harsh but true.

orkneylass
25-May-07, 20:31
Wilkepedia states that the Gurkhas are an elite british army unit composed of nepalese soldiers serving under british officers. We don't generally give the VC to anyone that has not directly served Britain. Get your facts right.

Rheghead
25-May-07, 20:54
Wilkepedia states that the Gurkhas are an elite british army unit composed of nepalese soldiers serving under british officers. We don't generally give the VC to anyone that has not directly served Britain. Get your facts right.

Then you will read that the Ghurkas were part of the Indian army and on Independence in 1947, some regiments joined the Post-Independent army and some joined the British Army.

At the time Mr Pun was a Ghurka, he was in the Indian Army.

Now, what was that about facts??

Dog-eared
25-May-07, 21:05
This country is still very Victorian in the attitudes the government imposes on us. Anyone who has been to the other English speaking countries will see what disdain the world sees us in.
We are a very small island with Empire attitudes. Especially to our own " lower classes"
Its 2007 for gods sake !!

Jeemag_USA
25-May-07, 21:40
It is a bit of a shame, I expect that the reasoning behind is more they see him as a burden on the national health and the british taxpayer, but if he was part of the Indian Army why is he receiving a pounds sterling pension, which could pay for his medication a little? I would say its more the government saying at your age your near popping off so we are not letting you in so you can blag free medicine off the UK until you die?

I fell sorry for many of the veterans in this country because of the way the government treat them, I learned last week from a very learned talker at a colege graduation ceremony here that 30% of the USA's homeless are Veterands, thats pretty shocking, part of the problem is many of them come home and cannot fit back in with society, they have psychological problems and they just do not get anough help, they end up roaming the streets and sleeping under bridges and on canals and rivers. Just shows that your government is proud of you will you fight immoral wars but once your home you can clear of out of it.

orkneylass
25-May-07, 21:40
Rheghead - since India was under british rule until 1947, he served in the "British Indian army" in 1944 under British officers following a british agenda. Do you think that if Scotland gets it's independence, all the scots VC winners and ex-soldiers etc should be treated in the same fashion?

j4bberw0ck
25-May-07, 21:45
Now, what was that about facts??

Well, I'd suggest that if the British were so moved as to give the man the highest award for honour and bravery that they were (and are) able to give, then it doesn't matter a monkey's cuss whether he's Britsh Army, or Canadian, or other Commonwealth country:

Who were the first Commonwealth VCs?

CANADA - Sergeant A H L Richardson, Lord Strathcona's Horse, 5 July 1900, South African War.
AUSTRALIA - Captain N R Howse, New South Wales Army Medical Corps, 24 July 1900, South African War.
NEW ZEALAND - Major C Heaphy, Auckland Militia, 11 February 1864, New Zealand (Maori Wars).
INDIA - Sepoy Khudadad Khan, 129th Duke of Connaught's Own Baluchis, Indian Army, Hollebeke, Belgium, 31 October 1914.
SOUTH AFRICA - Corporal F C Schiess, Natal Native Contingent, Zulu War (Rorke's Drift) 22 January 1879.This is still an extraordinarily brave man, fighting for the British war effort, and I for one couldn't care less what his nationality is. If after such bravery we can't allow him treatment under the NHS we don't deserve to be a free nation any longer because we've lost touch with any principle of humanity and respect.

Can you imagine the Americans disowning the holder of the Congressional Medal of Honor? In a pig's eye, Rheghead.

Jeemag_USA
25-May-07, 21:55
Then you will read that the Ghurkas were part of the Indian army and on Independence in 1947, some regiments joined the Post-Independent army and some joined the British Army.

At the time Mr Pun was a Ghurka, he was in the Indian Army.

Now, what was that about facts??

Mr Pun was a Ghurka in The British Indian Army. Between 1903 and 1947 the Indian Army consisted of two portions, the Indian Army and the British Indian Army, the Ghurkas were incorporated into the British Indian Army, not the Indian Army. When this man was awarded the VC (which is not awarded by the Indian Army) it was 1944 and he woudl have been serving under british Rule in the British Indian Army, hence the reason for receiving a 135 pounds pension per month.




Ghorkas, Ghurkas

Impressed by the fighting qualities displayed by the Gorkhas during the Gurkha War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurkha_War), Sir David Ochterlony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ochterlony) was quick to realise the potential of the Gorkhas in the British Indian Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian_Army). Until then, Gorkha defectors were generally used as irregular forces. In April 1815, the first battalion of the Gorkha Regiment, was raised as the Nasiri regiment. This regiment later became the 1st King George’s Own Gurkha Rifles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1GR), and saw action at the Maulun fort under Lieutenant Lawtie.
The Gorkhas, designated a martial race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_race) by the British, formed bulk of the forces in the British Indian Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian_Army). They were instrumental in the expansion of the British East India Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company) throughout the subcontinent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcontinent). The Gorkhas took part in the Anglo-Sikh wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Sikh_wars), Afghan wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Wars), and in suppressing the Indian Rebellion of 1857 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Rebellion_of_1857). Throughout these years, the British continued to recruit the Gorkhas and kept increasing the number of Gorkha regiments. By the time First World War started, there were 11 Gorkha regiments under the British Indian Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Indian_Army). The Gorkha regiments played a vital role in the Commonwealth armies during both the World Wars

Frome the Nepali Times (http://www.nepalitimes.com/issue/188/History/3816)


Tul Bahadur Pun joined the British Army during the Second World War and was awarded the Victoria Cross for his bravery in Burma.

Angela
25-May-07, 22:05
Ah, but J'w0ck, he has probably been rejected by whatever tick-the-box software system they use.:(

It's so much easier, quicker and cheaper to have a system that leaps to conclusions, makes assumptions, and supplies a decision for them, rather than to have human beings having to apply a bit of thought and common sense and discretion to the matter.

Never mind how outrageously unfair that decision is. [evil]

orkneylass
25-May-07, 22:06
Thank you Jeemag - we can't just use people for our purposes and then decide that those who gave above and beyond the call of duty in such circumstances have no real connection to our country.

j4bberw0ck
25-May-07, 22:13
Ah, but J'w0ck, he has probably been rejected by whatever tick-the-box software system they use.:(

I can't help but feel that if this man consented to let the NHS try to help him then the current crop of politicians of all parties together with the most senior 100 or so Army officers in the UK should be out there to salute him as he makes his way past them. He's worth more than all of them put together.

IMHO, of course.

orkneylass
25-May-07, 22:35
dodgy ground here - NHS services allocated on merit??? A new thread I think....

j4bberw0ck
25-May-07, 22:39
No, I meant that if he graciously consented to allow the NHS to help him, not the other way round - you obviously work for them, or you would have seen the point right away.

That's the trouble with people who work for the government. They think they're doing us all a favour.

Rheghead
25-May-07, 22:44
Rheghead - since India was under british rule until 1947, he served in the "British Indian army" in 1944 under British officers following a british agenda. Do you think that if Scotland gets it's independence, all the scots VC winners and ex-soldiers etc should be treated in the same fashion?

The Indian Army was always known as the Indian Army. Wikipedia have used the word 'British' to distinguish it from the post-independence Indian Army. If you made a comtemporary comment that Winston Churchill has joined the British Indian Army then you would have been quickly corrected that he has joined the Indian Army.

I would not think that Scots would be treated in the same way because they would have been British at the time they served in a British Army. Mr Pun was an Indian serving in the Indian Army.

j4bberw0ck
25-May-07, 22:53
I would not think that Scots would be treated in the same way because they would have been British at the time they served in a British Army. Mr Pun was an Indian serving in the Indian Army.

Still got a VC, though.......... in the service of this fleabitten, miserable country. If we can make help and aid available to terrorists, criminals and asylum seekers, we could at least do the same for this distinguished gentleman.

Jeemag_USA
25-May-07, 23:16
The Indian Army was always known as the Indian Army. Wikipedia have used the word 'British' to distinguish it from the post-independence Indian Army. If you made a comtemporary comment that Winston Churchill has joined the British Indian Army then you would have been quickly corrected that he has joined the Indian Army.

I would not think that Scots would be treated in the same way because they would have been British at the time they served in a British Army. Mr Pun was an Indian serving in the Indian Army.

Nice way to skirt around the fact that your wrong in your presentation of your interpretation of the facts Rheggie, there are many more sources than Wikipedia which the said site proabably got its information from. Mr Pun served under the British Army in the British Indian Army before independence and received his VC before Independence so you are repeating something that does not make any sense because your trying to say he served in an independent Indian Army which he did not. He fought for the British Army on behalf of the British Empire. Why can't you just see that you didn't really have it right before you answered?

North Rhins
25-May-07, 23:41
What’s your problem Reg? This brave man didn’t fight for the defence of India, he fought for his comrades, his regiment and for the country for which he promised to serve, Britain. The greatest honour a Nepalese man can attain is to serve in the Gurkhas.
A truer, more loyal, honest man than ‘Johnny’ Gurkha you will never meet,.
It seems a travesty of justice in that we as a country can treat every illegal immigrant, every arranged marriage, together with their retinue of parents siblings aunts uncles and cousins, yet a man, the holder of this country’s highest award for valour goes without. A sad state of affairs and one which we should all be ashamed of.
I had the pleasure of working alongside these ‘little’ men. It was an honour and a privilege.

Jeemag_USA
25-May-07, 23:44
Pun was in the 6th Ghurka Rifles, after independence the 6th Ghurka Rifles brigade along with the 2nd, 7th and 10th were absorbed into the British Army, and Pun served on until at least another nine years because it shows it in the photo in Jabberwocks link, so not only did he fight for the British in the second World War, after India's independence he continued to serve in what then became a British Army ran 6th Ghurka Rifles, thats why he receives an army pension. I got that information from army.mod.co.uk and also if you check the offical site of what is now The Indian Army, they don't even mention Ghurkas in their History. And on Army.Mod.Co.uk they also refer to the British-Indian Army, several times.

Rifleman Tul Bahadur Pun
3rd Bn. 6th Gurkha Rifles

I don't think you read the whole clip or you woudl see his own references for fighting for the country and his pension, the man served Britain well and he should at least warrant some medical attention if they are not giving him residency.

crayola
25-May-07, 23:45
I once met some Gurkhas at the Edinburgh Military Tattoo. They were super chaps.

Rheghead
25-May-07, 23:48
Nice way to skirt around the fact that your wrong in your presentation of your interpretation of the facts Rheggie, there are many more sources than Wikipedia which the said site proabably got its information from. Mr Pun served under the British Army in the British Indian Army before independence and received his VC before Independence so you are repeating something that does not make any sense because your trying to say he served in an independent Indian Army which he did not. He fought for the British Army on behalf of the British Empire. Why can't you just see that you didn't really have it right before you answered?

Mr Pun served in the Indian Army. It is true that the Indian Army fought in many theatres in which the British Army were involved but the theatre in which Mr Pun was involved was in the defence of India from Japanese aggression. (And I am sure he and his comrades would have been well aware that Independence was a more realistic proposition under British rule than Japanese rule, so they were fighting for India really, not necessarily Britain). The Ghurka regiments were definitely part of the Indian Army not the British Army. Mr Pun wasn't part of the British Regiments that served in the Indian Army.

The writing was already on the wall for the British in India by the time the Japanese invaded Pearl Harbour. From what I understand, a lot of Indians saw service in the Indian army for British/Indian interests as a lever to gain independence from Britain, it was the old we serve you and give us independence thing. The thing is, independence was never a two way street, they were either Indian or they weren't, not when it suits.

I am purely looking at this from a legal sense, not an emotional one. Where do we draw the line? I also think it is wrong to award all these hate merchants under asylum laws.

My cousin was awarded the VC during WW2, he was disillusioned with Post-war British society and went to the US to live. He came back to the UK 27 years later and was further disillusioned with UK law when he couldn't claim dole or other benefits because he hadn't paid enough stamp in the UK. Rules are rules, but he did have his VC pension. So Mr Pun's experience echoes my cousin's experience. But I do appreciate that if we had given any old soldier a free meal ticket on the strength of a sob story then it would have crippled the British post-war economy.

It is a case of 'where do we draw the line?' and I do think the media are whipping up a sob story. There were many unsung heroes who deserve a medal that didn't get one, so really, a VC is not related to the issue of whether Mr Pun should enjoy residence in the UK.

Jeemag_USA
26-May-07, 00:30
The writing was already on the wall for the British in India by the time the Japanese invaded Pearl Harbour. From what I understand, a lot of Indians saw service in the Indian army for British/Indian interests as a lever to gain independence from Britain, it was the old we serve you and give us independence thing. The thing is, independence was never a two way street, they were either Indian or they weren't, not when it suits.



And Mr Pun never was Indian so he didn't need to be Indian or not, he was a Nepalese Ghurka man serving in the British-Indian Army and after independence served under the British Army, as the last photo in the clip shows he was still in the 6th Ghurka Brigade in 1953 which was absorbed into the British Army in 1948, thats why he has a pension, why can't you acknowledge that?

North Rhins
26-May-07, 00:39
Quote ‘But I do appreciate that if we had given any old soldier a free meal ticket on the strength of a sob story then it would have crippled the British post-war economy.’

If I could write what I really thought about this post I would get banned. So I will have make do with arrogant, ignorant, ungrateful little man. [disgust]

Rheghead
26-May-07, 01:04
And Mr Pun never was Indian so he didn't need to be Indian or not, he was a Nepalese Ghurka man serving in the British-Indian Army and after independence served under the British Army, as the last photo in the clip shows he was still in the 6th Ghurka Brigade in 1953 which was absorbed into the British Army in 1948, thats why he has a pension, why can't you acknowledge that?

The British Colonialism was seen as an oppresser the world over. Mr Pun was fighting for his freedom from Japanese belligerence, not for British interests or any colonialism. If India had fallen to the Japanese then it was just a formality for Nepal. And he probably stayed with the regiment because that was the life he knew and it was certainly not his decision that his regiment went into the British army. If he was fighting for purely British colonial interests then I would question his motives for fighting for an oppresser. There were thousands of Al qaeda operatives fighting the soviets in Afghanistan for US interests but I doubt they would get residency in the US.

Jeemag_USA
26-May-07, 01:23
The British Colonialism was seen as an oppresser the world over. Mr Pun was fighting for his freedom from Japanese belligerence, not for British interests or any colonialism. If India had fallen to the Japanese then it was just a formality for Nepal. And he probably stayed with the regiment because that was the life he knew and it was certainly not his decision that his regiment went into the British army. If he was fighting for purely British colonial interests then I would question his motives for fighting for an oppresser. There were thousands of Al qaeda operatives fighting the soviets in Afghanistan for US interests but I doubt they would get residency in the US.

Come on Rheghead, you just sidestepped the question and the facts again??? :eek: And you'll continue rather than acknowledge the guy fought for the British Army and has an army pension. Listened to enough.

PS there were thousands of Mujahadeen fighting against Afghanistan.

Rheghead
26-May-07, 01:36
Come on Rheghead, you just sidestepped the question and the facts again??? :eek: And you'll continue rather than acknowledge the guy fought for the British Army and has an army pension.

OK, tell me which theatre of war did Mr Pun fight for the British army after his regiment went into the British army. He fought for the Indian army and he was decorated for it. But that doesn't make him anyway British or make him have legal right to live in the UK.

Jeemag_USA
26-May-07, 02:08
OK, tell me which theatre of war did Mr Pun fight for the British army after his regiment went into the British army. He fought for the Indian army and he was decorated for it. But that doesn't make him anyway British or make him have legal right to live in the UK.

Its not about where he fought, the issue with him wanting to come to the UK is not because he can kick some ass, its about his service to the british government, he needs help and he is reaching out to those whom he helped. The Indian Army does not award the Victoria Cross, he was not decorated by the Indian Army, he was decorated by the British Army, you can see why this is now becoming futile. Of course he is not british, who said he was, he is requesting it and frankly he deserves it, how many people get residency in the UK each year with no connection other than they want a better life?

And anyway, if he was still in the Gurkha Brigade up until 1953 then he would have served for the British Colonial Government in Malaysia during the Malayan Emergency (1948-1960) against Communist Terrorists unless he got a desk job which is unlikely for a Gurkha. But this was probably something you already knew or were waiting for me to tell you because you couldn't be bothered looking for anything yourself?

Also read up on The Chindits, which was a collective international group fighting behind enemy lines in Burma, the Gurkhas were in that group and he also has attended reunions because i read it in other stories written by him found online, if you read about them and their history you will see they were made up of British, Gurkha, Burma Rifles, Hong Kong Volunteers, RAF, USAAF and West African Servicemen, no mention of Indians or Indian Army. http://www.chindits.info/

j4bberw0ck
26-May-07, 08:47
He fought for the Indian army and he was decorated for it.

Makes you wonder why the British government pays pensions to retiured Gurkha soldiers, and pays their salaries while they're enlisted.....


But that doesn't make him anyway British or make him have legal right to live in the UK.

You're slipping, Rheggers..... that wasn't the point at all. The point is that some petty bureaucrat has decided that Mr Pun, VC, has insufficient connexion with the UK to be allowed entry for medical treatment.

golach
26-May-07, 08:58
This just add insult to injury

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3177152.stm


How can we treat these men like this? [disgust]

MadPict
26-May-07, 10:03
But during leave periods in Nepal, Gurkhas are paid the equivalent of 5% of their salary.

Gurkhas retire after a maximum of 17 years of service with a pension of £91 a month. British privates serve 22 years for a pension which is £623 a month.

If they were one of the many "minorities" who manage to get huge payments out of the MOD for "unfair treatment" they would have won their case.
But no, they're just little brown men from some tiny country so they don't count....

I am DISGUSTED at the way this government, and previous governments, have acted towards the Gurkhas.
They have chosen to serve for the UK in many conflicts around the world and to treat them and their families as second class soldiers is shameful.

They have shown unwavering loyalty to the British and this is how our "leaders" treat them. If they are good enough to fight and die for us then they deserve the equal pay and pensions as Pte. Joe Bloggs from Manchester.

Rheghead,

But I do appreciate that if we had given any old soldier a free meal ticket on the strength of a sob story then it would have crippled the British post-war economy...

Shame on you.

Rheghead
26-May-07, 10:35
The fact remains that this man has contributed nothing to modern Britain. Are we to be the welfare state for the world? We should come to accept that we are no longer a colonial power and prostituting foreign fighters is no longer the way to go for our selfish interests. He is not British so I think the decision is correct. We don't run a system like the French or Americans where military service comes with citizenship. If that were so then I would fully support Mr Pun's application.

I have the utmost sympathy for his predicament but this is a judgement ruling and I think the powers that be have got the balance right.

MadPict
26-May-07, 10:48
The fact remains that this man has contributed nothing to modern Britain.

...neither do the 1000's of illegal immigrants who come here to sponge off the taxpayer.

At least Mr Pun fought for this country. Albeit a few decades ago but he did serve the UK.


Are we to be the welfare state for the world?

According to the droves of Eastern Europeans heading this way, we are. Britain is the place to go for free healthcare, free education, free housing and money for doing nothing.
Why not rant about that, instead of some old soldier who just wants some healthcare?

Roll Up Roll Up!!!

Rheghead
26-May-07, 10:52
Why isn't the British Legion doing something? As a lifelong supporter of the British Legion I would think he has a good case for help.

veekay
26-May-07, 11:33
Thank you Jeemag - we can't just use people for our purposes and then decide that those who gave above and beyond the call of duty in such circumstances have no real connection to our country.


No we can't but it happens all the time. Not just in cases like this but with our own British born war veterans. How many of them are just put on the scrapheap having done their duty. I bet we al know someone or of someone who is living on the breadline in their older years who played their part.

golach
26-May-07, 11:40
Why isn't the British Legion doing something? As a lifelong supporter of the British Legion I would think he has a good case for help.
Rheg, I am shocked, as a member of the RBL at your statement. The RBL are a charitable organisation and do a lot to help all British Veterans including the Gurkhas, see below.
I only hope you are being the devils advocate in this thread, I am sure your attitude not the norm amongst my
Fellow RBL members
http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/content/Disablement-Pension-Claims-508944.shtml

Boozeburglar
26-May-07, 11:55
...neither do the 1000's of illegal immigrants who come here to sponge off the taxpayer.

According to the droves of Eastern Europeans heading this way, we are. Britain is the place to go for free healthcare, free education, free housing and money for doing nothing.

Roll Up Roll Up!!!


Just how many illegal immigrants get benefits?

If people can come here legally and live, just like you can go to another EU country and live, is it their fault you are ignorant as to how hard they work and how much they contribute?

Angela
26-May-07, 12:33
If people can come here legally and live, just like you can go to another EU country and live, is it their fault you are ignorant as to how hard they work and how much they contribute?

Have to agree with you Boozeburglar.

The economic migrants I have got to know over the past couple of years are all here legally, and all working remarkably hard in jobs which are mostly well below their level of skills. They are prepared to get up off their backsides and do something to try to improve their lives and take jobs which many born and bred Brits would turn their noses up at.
None of them is getting "free housing" or "money for doing nothing" as MadPict suggests.
They are contributing as much to our society as anybody else.
In fact those I have met set a pretty good example in terms of their work ethic. Only a small sample, I know, but I have been very impressed by them.

I know this is a bit off topic, and it doesn't mean that I agree with the treatment of Mr Pun, which I do think is harsh and unfair. [evil]

NickInTheNorth
26-May-07, 12:47
Have to agree with you Boozeburglar.

The economic migrants I have got to know over the past couple of years are all here legally, and all working remarkably hard in jobs which are mostly well below their level of skills. They are prepared to get up off their backsides and do something to try to improve their lives and take jobs which many born and bred Brits would turn their noses up at.
None of them is getting "free housing" or "money for doing nothing" as MadPict suggests.
They are contributing as much to our society as anybody else.
In fact those I have met set a pretty good example in terms of their work ethic. Only a small sample, I know, but I have been very impressed by them.

I know this is a bit off topic, and it doesn't mean that I agree with the treatment of Mr Pun, which I do think is harsh and unfair. [evil]

Additionally the genuine refugees which this country takes in shamefully small numbers do not work while awaiting the outcome of their application. The only reason they don't work is that they are not allowed to.

Given the situations which give rise to genuine refugee status, I do not know how anyone can be so blithely racist about the plight of those people. We are becoming an increasingly intolerant racists and mean spirited society, and if I had any real choice in the matter I would not be part of it.

Jeemag_USA
26-May-07, 12:48
This guy is obviously a hero but he is a hero of India and the free world. He served in the Indian Army not the British Army. I know he got the VC but having a medal doesn't convey instant citizenship. There were thousands of brave soldiers who fought Japanese beligerence, not least the Americans. Should we give residence to them as well? They don't have an NHS either mind. Let us be right, Mr Pun was heroically fighting for the defence of India not Britain...

Harsh but true.

Harsh and completely incorrect, I noticed you have changed from saying he fought for India to saying he did nothing for modern britain. Why don't you just voice your opinion about it Rheg without making up facts from the start none of which are remotely near the truth.

MadPict
26-May-07, 15:25
Enoch Powell would be proud of you.

Glad your BNP vote was wasted recently.

Just how many illegal immigrants get benefits?

If people can come here legally and live, just like you can go to another EU country and live, is it their fault you are ignorant as to how hard they work and how much they contribute?

Boozeburglar & Angela,
I dislike the BNP as much as any civilised person and your inference that I would vote for such a party is highly offensive.

Did I make any mention of legal migrants coming to the UK to work?

NO I DID NOT!!! [disgust]

I happen to live in an area with a high number of Polish workers. They are always regarded very highly by those who employ them and work far harder than your average Brit. The fact they are willing to do menial work (which Brits don't wish to even get close to) is a credit to their work ethic.

I have no issue with anyone moving within the EU to work. I have an issue with ILLEGAL immigrants stowing away in the rear of HGVs or coming ashore at the dead of night on some deserted beach.
They bring little to the UK but take plenty.
They are often used by unscrupulous employers and forced to live in squalid conditions not much better than a labour camp. They prevent legal migrants from obtaining work.

If that viewpoint makes me a rabid white nationalist then you best look at a vast majority of taxpayers because believe it or not they object to our soft approach to illegal immigrants as I do.

golach
26-May-07, 15:32
Enoch Powell would be proud of you.
Glad your BNP vote was wasted recently.

IMO Boozie, Mad Pict deserves a public apology from you for making a statement such as that

Angela
26-May-07, 15:52
Boozeburglar & Angela,
I dislike the BNP as much as any civilised person and your inference that I would vote for such a party is highly offensive.

Did I make any mention of legal migrants coming to the UK to work?

NO I DID NOT!!!

I happen to live in an area with a high number of Polish workers. They are always regarded very highly by those who employ them and work far harder than your average Brit. The fact they are willing to do menial work (which Brits don't wish to even get close to) is a credit to their work ethic.

I have no issue with anyone moving within the EU to work. I have an issue with ILLEGAL immigrants stowing away in the rear of HGVs or coming ashore at the dead of night on some deserted beach.
They bring little to the UK but take plenty.
They are often used by unscrupulous employers and forced to live in squalid conditions not much better than a labour camp. They prevent legal migrants from obtaining work.

If that viewpoint makes me a rabid white nationalist then you best look at a vast majority of taxpayers because believe it or not they object to our soft approach to illegal immigrants as I do.

MadPict, please read my post again!

I did not (or certainly did not intend to) attribute any BNP tendencies to you. I did not in fact agree with that part of boozeburgler's post, and apologise unreservedly if it seemed that way to you. :(
I was agreeing only with the part of his post which I quoted.
Perhaps I should have quoted directly from your earlier post, where you said "according to the droves of Eastern Europeans heading this way....Britain is the place to go for free healthcare, free education, free housing and money for doing nothing."
That was what I took exception to, because it wasn't at all clear to me that you were referring only to illegal immigrants.
Reading your most recent post, I can see that you hold legal migrant workers such as Polish people in the same high regard that I do. :)

MadPict
26-May-07, 16:08
The fact that I said "..neither do the 1000's of illegal immigrants who come here to sponge off the taxpayer" was it not clear eonough that I did not include migrant workers?

And that comment has to to read in context to Rheghead's ridiculous statement "The fact remains that this man has contributed nothing to modern Britain."
He, Mr Pun, was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for this country. A country he probably will never, ever see. A country which was only too willing to allow him to die fighting for, that awarded the highest award for valour, that paid him a measly pension (compared to other soldiers of the same conflicts). That is "contribution" enough for me - far more than many who live an easy life sponging off the state.

Thanks for the apology.

Solus
26-May-07, 22:51
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/gurkhas-rights/

not sure if its been posted already, if so, oopps !

Boozeburglar
27-May-07, 09:26
Offending parts of my post removed.

I shall, against my instincts, give you the benefit of the doubt, Madpict.

You say you are only referring to illegal immigrants.

So please answer me this.

Exactly what "free healthcare, free education, free housing and money for doing nothing" are illegal immigrants getting?

Again I would ask you, in what way do the "1000's of illegal immigrants who come here" actually "sponge off the taxpayer"?

MadPict
27-May-07, 11:26
Boozeburglar,

I shall, against my instincts, give you the benefit of the doubt

Well thanks for that. If you care to look back through my post history I don't think you will find any evidence of any right wing, white nationalist element to my posts. Unlike some who have made their opinions on this topic very clear in the past. So while you edit your remarks to remove directly offensive wording you still insinuate that I am a BNP supporter?
"Against my instincts" implies you feel I am not speaking the truth?
I dare say if I had made such a remark against certain members here there would have been a chorus of "Shameful conduct from a Mod"...

As for illegal immigrants -
The government has announced new actions to stop illegal immigrants from receiving benefits. (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/news/blocking-illegal-benefits)

The immigration service say that all illegal immigrants can, and most do, claim asylum and while they are waiting for their case to be reviewed, I believe, that they are entitled to claim benefits, such as housing allowance etc. They are not allowed to work and the 'state' cannot allow them to starve so they get benefits. Those benefits are paid for by the taxpayer.
If they do work, it's illegally, and for 'cash-in-hand' and so are not contributing to the UK tax system. Hence my statement.
If you know better or can correct this impression please do so.

No doubt you will now claim I am anti asylum seekers. So before you do let me state that I believe the UK should remain as a refuge from persecution, of whatever type, for those who are really genuinely being persecuted. Though not as a convenient excuse to stay in the UK for longer than they would be entitled.


I have had some experience with illegal immigrants and one of the first words out of their mouths is almost always "asylum". They do this because they have been briefed by the networks of criminal gangs who smuggle them across Europe and into the UK to claim asylum if they are stopped.


Again let me say I have no issue with legal migrants coming here to work. Just as I am sure that legal migrant workers dislike the fact that illegal immigrants do not have to go through the red tape they have had to in order to come to the UK to work.

Angela
27-May-07, 12:26
The immigration service say that all illegal immigrants can, and most do, claim asylum and while they are waiting for their case to be reviewed, I believe, that they are entitled to claim benefits, such as housing allowance etc. They are not allowed to work and the 'state' cannot allow them to starve so they get benefits. Those benefits are paid for by the taxpayer.


I have had some experience with illegal immigrants and one of the first words out of their mouths is almost always "asylum". They do this because they have been briefed by the networks of criminal gangs who smuggle them across Europe and into the UK to claim asylum if they are stopped.



I really wasn't aware of that MadPict.

I had naively assumed that there must be an obvious difference between genuine asylum seekers and illegal immigrants (e.g. those who pay to be smuggled in by people-traffickers).

So - I didn't realise that the latter group could claim any benefits at all, I assumed they all did work illegally, and as you say, wouldn't pay any tax.

I understand your earlier post better now.

Employers who use the labour of illegal immigrants are just dispicable imo, but then so is anyone who employs someone who they know is claiming benefits and should not be working. These employers are themselves cheating the state -they don't pay the mimimum wage and they don't pay employer's NI-as well as enabling the folk who work for them to do so.

Landlords who cram too many people into accommodation are no better - they are breaking the law and putting the tenants at risk. If folk are knowingly flouting one law for profit, no reason to suppose they aren't breaking others. It all comes down to greed. [evil]

Unfortunately the government and local departments involved aren't always very joined-up in terms of procedures.

Sorry, I have gone way off the topic of poor Mr Pun. :(

fred
27-May-07, 19:48
Sorry, I have gone way off the topic of poor Mr Pun. :(

That makes a change, no Pun not intended.

Angela
27-May-07, 19:53
That makes a change, no Pun not intended.


Erm? :confused

You'll have to help me out here, fred.

If you mean I often wander off topic, I freely admit that yes I do -it must be the advancing years [lol]

fred
27-May-07, 20:28
Erm? :confused

You'll have to help me out here, fred.

If you mean I often wander off topic, I freely admit that yes I do -it must be the advancing years [lol]

It was a pun.

Angela
27-May-07, 20:45
It was a pun.

I am being just a tad slow up the uptake tonight ;)

fred
27-May-07, 21:26
I am being just a tad slow up the uptake tonight ;)

People usually say "no pun intended" but in your case it was no Pun not intended. It's a pun, "pun" means a a word with two meanings so the man's name "Pun" is a pun, a recursive pun no less.

I bet you're even more confused now, I know I am.

j4bberw0ck
27-May-07, 21:41
any evidence of any right wing, white nationalist element to my posts

{Ahem} Mr Pict; on a point of information - the BNP are not a right wing party. They are a socialist party (like the Nazis - National Socialists - geddit??) who advocate a much increased involvement of the State in business and culture. Like the Nazis they're fascists. Like fascists, they're socialist. White nationalist party I'd go along with. ;)

MadPict
27-May-07, 23:02
Jeez, so sorry. I meant far right.

From a wikithingy

Fascism is usually described as right-wing[1], although some scholars dispute that classification

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

Far right, extreme right, ultra-right, or radical right are terms used to discuss the qualitative or relative position a group or person occupies within a political spectrum. The terms "far right" and "far left" are often used to say that someone is an "extremist." "Far right" is thus usually a pejorative term used by outsiders rather than a self-label.[citation needed]

The label far right is usually applied to ideologies and political movements which embracevalues including racism, male chauvinism, monarchism, military rule, religious fundamentalism, extreme nationalism and ethnocentrism to a degree significantly greater than is common in the society at large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_right



I don't claim to be a scholar so maybe, just maybe, I can be forgiven for misusing the term. Take me outside and shoot me......

j4bberw0ck
28-May-07, 09:03
If I take you outside and shoot you, do I get to invoice your family for one round of ammunition, as I believe the Chinese Government do for executed criminals? :lol:

I'll match your Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) and add a Merriam-Webster (http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism):


Fascism:
1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

If that isn't Socialism as practiced by the Soviets and Chinese, I'll, er, er, er......

MadPict
28-May-07, 18:05
Whatever.
Far left or far right - I support neither and the insinuation I vote BNP was what I was defending myself against. They are just as bad as each other.....

j4bberw0ck
28-May-07, 21:42
Whatever.
Far left or far right - I support neither and the insinuation I vote BNP was what I was defending myself against. They are just as bad as each other.....

I'm sorry if I offended you, Mr Pict. If I bung you a bucket of woad and a Harris Tweed kilt in one of only 5 designs, will you forgive me? :lol:

MadPict
28-May-07, 22:49
No need to be so formal - just call me Mad....

You didn't offend me j4bberw0ck - you didn't claim I voted for the BNP.

And the woad was a urban myth - just as the rumour that Picts ran around naked. Or was it a Roman myth?

And tweed is almost as uncomfortable as a hair shirt so I'll stick with my recycled bottle cloth (fleece) ;)

j4bberw0ck
28-May-07, 22:53
the woad was a urban myth

Did they have urbs all the way back then? :lol: And can you possibly mean that Braveheart (the fillum) was a complete load of auld boll.... er, rubbish? :lol:

Solus
01-Jun-07, 17:39
Glad to see the powers that be have seen sense and allowed him to come to the UK.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6713039.stm

MadPict
01-Jun-07, 21:55
A victory for common sense and recognition of his service...