Advice needed, any ideas considered.

[Lolabelle]

I am having a bit of a smelly problem with Kruger, my male dog. He is urinating on everything. The back verandah absolutely reeks. Part of this is that he is constantly covering Lola's (girl dog) scent with his own. But boy oh boy, it is getting beyond a joke.
So what I need to know is

How to stop this. or...
How to disguise the stench...
Well anything .... What can I do?????????????Help me, I love this boy, but he is driving me crazy, I have tried spraying vinegar, and toilet deodoriser and washing everything down. It just makes his more inclined to get things back to his liking. :mad:

[Sandra_B]

Has he been neutered?

[Lolabelle]

No, he isn't. We are going to do that. But he is a stud dog so we have to have his semen collected first. But I have been told it makes no difference and my mums dog is, and he still pees everywhere.

[emb123]

once a male dog has reached adult stage their behaviour has become pretty much ingrained. Won't make any noticeable difference having him neutered.

About all you can do is keep hosing the verandah down very regularly. When they've been done it does seem to make it a bit less smelly tho'.

[blondscot]

I know that you can buy stuff that you put in dogs food to neutrilise the content of pee sort of diluting it so that it dont burn the grass!! so maybe that would help cut down on the strong smell. Not sure what it is called but can find out for you if you want! :)

[Lolabelle]

I know that you can buy stuff that you put in dogs food to neutrilise the content of pee sort of diluting it so that it dont burn the grass!! so maybe that would help cut down on the strong smell. Not sure what it is called but can find out for you if you want! :)
That would be fantastic, thank you. I will try anything. I am absolutely over the smell.

[porshiepoo]

We have a yorkshire terrier that did exactly the same.
He was 5 years old and it was driving me nuts so we had him castrated. It took about 6 months for it to all change but change it did. He stopped peeing everywhere and the smell was nowhere near so offensive.
Obviously this is a problem for you cos your boys a stud dog. The only thing to do is as you said, collect his semen and then do the castration if you're happy to do that.

[buggyracer]

cut there bits off, its the new black, whenever a dog does soemthing that is natural to a dog.

how about chastising him when he does it, stern telling off, and not letting him in somewhere where it will cause a problem if he does lift his leg, and let him out more so he has less to pee even if he wants to.

[stewart4364]

Try a product called Urinator. This is available from Rob Harvey Specialist Feeds. If you go on to google and enter Urinator or Rob Harvey which gives all the details. Hope this will help the problem -- it will possibly not stop him peeing but should get rid of the smell.
Good Luck

[Lolabelle]

cut there bits off, its the new black, whenever a dog does soemthing that is natural to a dog.

how about chastising him when he does it, stern telling off, and not letting him in somewhere where it will cause a problem if he does lift his leg, and let him out more so he has less to pee even if he wants to.

I don't want to stop him being a dog. But I do not want my house to stink of dog pee. And as for chastising him...Ha ha. I have tried everything from smaking, yelling, squirting him with a water pistol to an electric fence. He is the champion of sly piddling. He never does it in our line of sight. He knows he shouldn't pee around the back veranda. I know this because I have covertly watched him and he walks up, checks to see if I can see and if I am not in sight, he pees. If I am he takes off and puts himself in the kennel. I am not joking. He knows!!!! You really have to see it to beleive it. If someone had told me about a dog doing what he does, I would not have accused them of lying, but would definately have thought there was an element of exaggeration there. He also knows that he can pee anywhere else in the yard, and doesn't bother trying to hide then.

[porshiepoo]

cut there bits off, its the new black, whenever a dog does soemthing that is natural to a dog.

how about chastising him when he does it, stern telling off, and not letting him in somewhere where it will cause a problem if he does lift his leg, and let him out more so he has less to pee even if he wants to.


Bit of a contradiction there!
You make a comment about us not letting a dog be a dog and then you suggest we talk to a dog in the english language and expect him to understand what we're saying by rubbing his nose in his own pee!!!! Yeah, that's a real doggy thing to do, I'm sure that's more natural!!?? :eek:

Do you honestly believe that a dog will understand what is meant by rubbing his nose in his pee???
And you honestly think that letting him out more often will stop it? He'd have to be out permanently for that to be effective!
An entire dog will pee all over to mark his territory, it has nothing to do with needing to go a pee. The most effective way to stop this and a multitude of other sins is to castrate him, it's not cruel just sensible.

[porshiepoo]

I don't want to stop him being a dog. But I do not want my house to stink of dog pee. And as for chastising him...Ha ha. I have tried everything from smaking, yelling, squirting him with a water pistol to an electric fence. He is the champion of sly piddling. He never does it in our line of sight. He knows he shouldn't pee around the back veranda. I know this because I have covertly watched him and he walks up, checks to see if I can see and if I am not in sight, he pees. If I am he takes off and puts himself in the kennel. I am not joking. He knows!!!! You really have to see it to beleive it. If someone had told me about a dog doing what he does, I would not have accused them of lying, but would definately have thought there was an element of exaggeration there. He also knows that he can pee anywhere else in the yard, and doesn't bother trying to hide then.

He's not trying to do it on the snide, no matter how it looks. Dogs do not reason as we do. He's merely learnt to be scared to do it. He knows he'll get punished for it but no matter what you do or say he doesn't understand why he gets punished. He is just doing what comes naturally and instinct is greater than fear for him at the moment. His instinct is telling him that he has to do it in order to let any passing or local threat know that this is his territory.

Please stop punishing him for it. You are going to end up with a dog that is a mess at best and nervous aggressive at worst. He honestly doesn't ubderstand that he can only pee in certain spots.

I have a great dane that is entire and a german shepherd that is entire.
I'll admit that neither of these will pee indoors or anywhere that bothers me but I have a feeling that has as much to do with pack order as anything else. They know they're status in the pack and as such don't feel the need to make it known to everyone else by scenting.
I also trained the dane from a very young age to go to the loo on command as it made things so much easier when I was showing him.
Our yorkie was a different matter. He pee'd everywhere - on dvd's, up skirting, on the sofa etc etc but looking back I can see we never made his pack status clear - didn't know how to. He's now castrated and we've never looked back.

At the end of the day if castration is going to calm your dogs mind and make him mentally more balanced, is going to stop him peeing which will make you happier then surely that has to be kinder than what's happening at the moment??????

[Lolabelle]

He's not trying to do it on the snide, no matter how it looks. Dogs do not reason as we do. He's merely learnt to be scared to do it. He knows he'll get punished for it but no matter what you do or say he doesn't understand why he gets punished.

Please stop punishing him for it. You are going to end up with a dog that is a mess at best and nervous aggressive at worst. He honestly doesn't ubderstand that he can only pee in certain spots.



I agree with most of what you say porshiepoo, but I do disagree about whether or not he knows that he is not supposed to pee on the veranda or not. Because he is not afraid to pee any where else in front of me. I don't punish him anymore. I very quickly realised that chastising wasn't working. He just does it anyway. I am not cruel to my dogs. They are my companians and I love them. I just want to do something to direct him away from it. I had heard that castration would not help. I want to have him done, for other reasons, mainly so he is not tormented by the smells of females on the wind and never being able to get a girlfriend. I think that is cruel to leave him, but as I said before, I have to have his semen collected first, and we are on a waiting list.
I appreciate all the suggestions and help offered. I will try the urinator product. I don't care what he does if it just doesn't make the house smell.
Again thank you all.
PS, he isn't psychologically damaged either, he is gorgeous proud gentleman, he just love piddling on everything lol.
I didn't get him until he was 18 months and he was from a kennel, with many other males in nearby runs. I guess now he is marking his territory regardless.

[changilass]

Our older boy markes his territory if we have to put him in kennels for any reason, he always comes home stinking of pee. He doesn't do it at home as he knows his place in the pack. This year we have arranged a holiday where we can take the dogs with us so that should make it easier.

[porshiepoo]

I agree with most of what you say porshiepoo, but I do disagree about whether or not he knows that he is not supposed to pee on the veranda or not. Because he is not afraid to pee any where else in front of me. I don't punish him anymore. I very quickly realised that chastising wasn't working. He just does it anyway. I am not cruel to my dogs. They are my companians and I love them. I just want to do something to direct him away from it. I had heard that castration would not help. I want to have him done, for other reasons, mainly so he is not tormented by the smells of females on the wind and never being able to get a girlfriend. I think that is cruel to leave him, but as I said before, I have to have his semen collected first, and we are on a waiting list.
I appreciate all the suggestions and help offered. I will try the urinator product. I don't care what he does if it just doesn't make the house smell.
Again thank you all.
PS, he isn't psychologically damaged either, he is gorgeous proud gentleman, he just love piddling on everything lol.
I didn't get him until he was 18 months and he was from a kennel, with many other males in nearby runs. I guess now he is marking his territory regardless.

I honestly wasn't suggesting that you don't love your boy.

Your dog looks sheepish when he pees in certain places because he's learnt to associate it with a punishment of some kind. Hasn't stopped him doing it though has it? That's because dogs cannot rationalise as we do.

A urninator?????? What a laugh. What's it supposed to do?
If anyone thinks that a product is going to mask a smell from a dog in the hope that it will stop them feeling the need to pee in the same place is insane and heading for an even bigger headache. ;)
Dogs sense of smell is a million times more powerful than ours, they can smell a bitch in heat for miles away, no smelly product is going to either mask the smell or deter them.

Your boy is marking his territory pure and simple. He's not being naughty, dirty or disobedient - honest!
Castration helps because he won't have those hormones running rampant that tell him instinctively he needs to be top dog to breed and therefore mark his scent to let everyone know he's top dog. It can calm them down no end and for me would be the first thing to do followed very closely with asserting your hierarchy in the pack.

Please don't think I'm accusing you of being cruel or not loving your dog, the very fact that you're asking for advice shows that you are neither of those.

[buggyracer]

Bit of a contradiction there!
You make a comment about us not letting a dog be a dog and then you suggest we talk to a dog in the english language and expect him to understand what we're saying by rubbing his nose in his own pee!!!! Yeah, that's a real doggy thing to do, I'm sure that's more natural!!?? :eek:

Do you honestly believe that a dog will understand what is meant by rubbing his nose in his pee???
And you honestly think that letting him out more often will stop it? He'd have to be out permanently for that to be effective!
An entire dog will pee all over to mark his territory, it has nothing to do with needing to go a pee. The most effective way to stop this and a multitude of other sins is to castrate him, it's not cruel just sensible.

Get a grip of yourself!!

my dogs understand lots of words, yours must be thick??

where did i say rub his nose in it? i didnt?? or talk in english??

the fact of the matter is if your prepared to let your dogs roam the house un-attended you will have to suffer the consequences, my russell pup USED to pee and now doesnt after being told not to, beleive me he understands, but in all honesty given the chance and left alone he probably would still do it but they dont get the chance. As the only time they are allowed into any other place other than the garden or kitchen is during the evening whilst we are there to supervise them and this is only in the living room and not left to roam the house.

but when he won this he did pee on me in the ring so hes not perfect........... hes a dog.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d108/buggyracer/IMG_1814.jpg

You state lollabelle he was from a kennel, and you didnt get him until 18 months, unfortunately it sounds like he has been brought up in a outdoor kennel and is only doing what he has done since he was a puppy, one of the problems with getting an older dog.

[buggyracer]

i googled the problem and this is the best i could find.......
Hector was growing up and beginning to do a lot of things that grown up dogs do. Hector’s family did not want to neuter Hector because they did not want him to change. They liked Hector exactly they way he was. Until he began to urinate on upright surfaces in the house. This behaviour is what is called “sexually dimorphic” behaviour in that it usually occurs in uncastrated, male dogs. Sexually dimorphic simply means that the behaviour is controlled by the sexual biology of the animal, in this case, the hormone testosterone. It is an effort by the male dog to mark his territory against other males and if it is going to be a problem, it will usually start when or slightly after the young dog begins to lift his leg to urinate. Lifting the leg is also sexually dimorphic behaviour.

Lifting the leg to urinate on vertical surfaces in the house should be differentiated from housetraining problems or “piddling” as described above. It will usually occurs in un-castrated, young males who have previously been well behaved in the house but has also been observed in castrated males and in females, as well. There is a tendency for the marking to be near the entrances to the house; i.e. a message left by the dog showing possession of the house. Close study of the dogs behaviour may reveal the stimuli triggering the urination. It may occur if a visitor arrives or when the dog is allowed in a room it does not often visit. Once used, the dog will have a tendency to be drawn back to the same spot. The behaviour can also be linked to a lack of a consistent hierarchy within the dogs household pack. Sometimes if the status of various members of the family pack is not settled, the dog will mark various objects of individuals in order to “possess” the item and therefore gain rank.

All of this information gives clues as to how to approach the problem behaviour. The owner might consider having their pet assessed as to the effect of castration. Some young dogs will stop marking behaviour if castration is completed early in their life. An assessment of the benefits of castration could be evaluated by having the dog treated with a chemical castration; e.g. delmadinone (Tardak). If there is a positive response when on Delmadinone, i.e. no marking behaviour, castration may be the answer for your dog. If you are against castration or if this test was unsuccessful, the following should be tried.

Make sure the dog has limited access to areas which he has previously marked. Clean the marked areas thoroughly with a strong odour eliminator.

Don’t forget to praise him for lifting his leg in appropriate places, even to following him into the garden until you are sure he has the idea.

Consistency is the key to having a confident dog. Whatever behaviour program you decide to follow, make sure the whole family is involved so your dog is certain of what is expected of him.

hope it helps???

[gary.b]

Good couple of post there Buggyracer, I agree castration does seem to be the answer for every behavioral problem discussed on this forum.
Also may I add if I were looking for a stud to cover a bitch of mine I wouldn't be using a frozen sample, I'd prefer to see the stud myself, in fact I'd be suspicious, asking myself if this is actually the semen of the dog they say it is? Why was a dog that was going to be used as stud castrated? Did it have health or behavioral problems?

[Lolabelle]

Good couple of post there Buggyracer, I agree castration does seem to be the answer for every behavioral problem discussed on this forum.
Also may I add if I were looking for a stud to cover a bitch of mine I wouldn't be using a frozen sample, I'd prefer to see the stud myself, in fact I'd be suspicious, asking myself if this is actually the semen of the dog they say it is? Why was a dog that was going to be used as stud castrated? Did it have health or behavioral problems?

Semen collection is quite successful and particularly in the case of a valuable dog in case of injury or death. You don't lose the blood line. Kruger, the dog in question, is the result of frozen and imported semen. He is a champion dog and his co owner wants his semen collected whether he is castrated or not. He has been know to get a bit of an infection around the time of year when females naturally come into season. The only two remedies of this is to castrate or mate him. As we don't want just any old dog getting his babies, he castration is the better option. He wont be tortured with all the smells in the air.

Buggyracer, thank you for that info, it makes sense, as he is quite a timid dog and i have always put it down to his previous owner being very tough on him, mainly because he has many males and needs to stay on top. I think perhaps he is very insecure and so that could be making the marking process more important to him. I try to be the leader and am mostly successful, but he has gotten worse since I moved them outside. Anyway, I will just try covering up the scent and after he has everything else done things may change. Regardless, he is a great dog, and I wouldn't swap him for anything. Even if occaisionally I get fed up with the stinky piddling problem.

[Lolabelle]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u71/Lolabelle_2007/K2.jpg

[emb123]

buggyracer - what a handsome Jack Russell!

this is my little fella (he was 7 in March)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/aethandor/Russell/060520071631.jpg?t=1180085197 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)

[buggyracer]

buggyracer - what a handsome Jack Russell!

this is my little fella (he was 7 in March)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/aethandor/Russell/060520071631.jpg?t=1180085197 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;)

thankyou, your one looks a craker too, i like the markings on him, i have a bitch with heavy marking like yours, albeit black instead of tan.

[buggyracer]

Semen collection is quite successful and particularly in the case of a valuable dog in case of injury or death. You don't lose the blood line. Kruger, the dog in question, is the result of frozen and imported semen. He is a champion dog and his co owner wants his semen collected whether he is castrated or not. He has been know to get a bit of an infection around the time of year when females naturally come into season. The only two remedies of this is to castrate or mate him. As we don't want just any old dog getting his babies, he castration is the better option. He wont be tortured with all the smells in the air.

Buggyracer, thank you for that info, it makes sense, as he is quite a timid dog and i have always put it down to his previous owner being very tough on him, mainly because he has many males and needs to stay on top. I think perhaps he is very insecure and so that could be making the marking process more important to him. I try to be the leader and am mostly successful, but he has gotten worse since I moved them outside. Anyway, I will just try covering up the scent and after he has everything else done things may change. Regardless, he is a great dog, and I wouldn't swap him for anything. Even if occaisionally I get fed up with the stinky piddling problem.

Lovely dog you have, and by the size of him he will have some pee!!

just a thought if he is to be used as stud, im assuming he will also be shown? maybe not, but, if he is used for showing having him chopped will have him marked down in the show ring as he is not intact, he will never beat a intact dog, no matter how nice he is. Something to consider?

[porshiepoo]

Get a grip of yourself!!

my dogs understand lots of words, yours must be thick??

where did i say rub his nose in it? i didnt?? or talk in english??

the fact of the matter is if your prepared to let your dogs roam the house un-attended you will have to suffer the consequences, my russell pup USED to pee and now doesnt after being told not to, beleive me he understands, but in all honesty given the chance and left alone he probably would still do it but they dont get the chance. As the only time they are allowed into any other place other than the garden or kitchen is during the evening whilst we are there to supervise them and this is only in the living room and not left to roam the house.

but when he won this he did pee on me in the ring so hes not perfect........... hes a dog.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d108/buggyracer/IMG_1814.jpg

You state lollabelle he was from a kennel, and you didnt get him until 18 months, unfortunately it sounds like he has been brought up in a outdoor kennel and is only doing what he has done since he was a puppy, one of the problems with getting an older dog.

Oh well, if you've won a couple of rosettes with your dog then I guess you must know what you're talking about eh??????


If you honestly believe that your dog understands the english language then I'm sorry but it's you who is thick!
So your dog understands sit does he? What about no? what about down? off? Hello? Goodbye?
He doesn't understand any single one of those words, he only understands the tone that is used. You could yell at your dog with the word 'happy' but if the tone is negative that's what the dog fixes on.
You could call your dog a poo bag but if it's said in a positive tone he'll love it.
Get a grip man, your dog is not human. Sorry!

And if your theory is correct how come I can let either two of my entire males roam the house and there's no way they would pee ever?
It's because both dogs know that I am pack leader and therefore they don't feel the need to mark their scent everywhere.
Sounds to me like you have a very unstable dog not to mention a frightened one if he feels the need to hide his peeing from you. Still, don't suppose it could be anything you're doing wrong eh? After all you have won some rosettes! Nope, must be the dogs fault.

[porshiepoo]

Lovely dog you have, and by the size of him he will have some pee!!

just a thought if he is to be used as stud, im assuming he will also be shown? maybe not, but, if he is used for showing having him chopped will have him marked down in the show ring as he is not intact, he will never beat a intact dog, no matter how nice he is. Something to consider?

I never thought to ask if he was a show dog. :eek:
You're correct of course, he will be severly marked down if he's castrated. In fact personally I wouldn't show a castrated dog.
The whole point of showing to many people is to better the breed therefore show dogs are the future of each of every breed. Many believe that a castrated dog shouldn't be shown because it cannot be bred from. Unless of course semen is frozen.

I bred a litter of danes once and the boy I kept to bring on only had one testicle descend, I was mortified as he was a gorgeous looking dog. He did get placed at champ shows but the feedback was always the same as he wasn't considered healthy to breed from. :(

[buggyracer]

Oh well, if you've won a couple of rosettes with your dog then I guess you must know what you're talking about eh??????


If you honestly believe that your dog understands the english language then I'm sorry but it's you who is thick!
So your dog understands sit does he? What about no? what about down? off? Hello? Goodbye?
He doesn't understand any single one of those words, he only understands the tone that is used. You could yell at your dog with the word 'happy' but if the tone is negative that's what the dog fixes on.
You could call your dog a poo bag but if it's said in a positive tone he'll love it.
Get a grip man, your dog is not human. Sorry!

And if your theory is correct how come I can let either two of my entire males roam the house and there's no way they would pee ever?
It's because both dogs know that I am pack leader and therefore they don't feel the need to mark their scent everywhere.
Sounds to me like you have a very unstable dog not to mention a frightened one if he feels the need to hide his peeing from you. Still, don't suppose it could be anything you're doing wrong eh? After all you have won some rosettes! Nope, must be the dogs fault.


Poo poo come round to my house and see my dogs, the invite is there i can name any number of different objects all totally different than the next and my dogs will happily go and fetch it, they understand the different words, any good dog pyscoligist (sp) will tell you dogs do understand digfferent words, they get stimulated by this type of learning, perhaps this could be the problem with yours they lack proper stimulation, as i say the offer is there should you choose to take it up? of course they dont understand the english language like we do but only an idiot would assume they do? as for unstable or frightened, again get a grip woman!! unstable frightened dogs dont work or win shows.

im quite aware my dog isnt human, infact they are all WORKING DOGS, they work for the purpose they were bred for, they dont just sit about the house all day long, they have a job.

and you are wrong again in your assumption that my dog has won a couple of rossettes, he has won more than a couple, he has infact won champion in show in all but one event he has been entered.

but as i say if he didnt do the job he was bred for i wouldnt care about a single rossette, they are working dogs.

dogs and disccussions like these bring out the best and the worst in people, in your case im afraid its the latter.

if you re-read your posts its you who started all the assumptions, i really just have a gripe with folk as soon as there dog does something wrong the answer is get its balls off asap, why not try to work with the dog first then if all else fails as a last resort then consider it, but its always the first suggestion on this forum.

[porshiepoo]

Poo poo come round to my house and see my dogs, the invite is there i can name any number of different objects all totally different than the next and my dogs will happily go and fetch it, they understand the different words, any good dog pyscoligist (sp) will tell you dogs do understand digfferent words, they get stimulated by this type of learning, perhaps this could be the problem with yours they lack proper stimulation, as i say the offer is there should you choose to take it up? of course they dont understand the english language like we do but only an idiot would assume they do? as for unstable or frightened, again get a grip woman!! unstable frightened dogs dont work or win shows.

im quite aware my dog isnt human, infact they are all WORKING DOGS, they work for the purpose they were bred for, they dont just sit about the house all day long, they have a job.

and you are wrong again in your assumption that my dog has won a couple of rossettes, he has won more than a couple, he has infact won champion in show in all but one event he has been entered.

but as i say if he didnt do the job he was bred for i wouldnt care about a single rossette, they are working dogs.

dogs and disccussions like these bring out the best and the worst in people, in your case im afraid its the latter.

if you re-read your posts its you who started all the assumptions, i really just have a gripe with folk as soon as there dog does something wrong the answer is get its balls off asap, why not try to work with the dog first then if all else fails as a last resort then consider it, but its always the first suggestion on this forum.

I too show dogs buggyracer, in fact my great dane boy has also won many championship classes and came 2nd in his class at crufts.
Please do not assume my dogs are bored, far from it.

Although I really don't want to get in to an argument about unstable frightened dogs not doing well at shows, I do have to disagree, you are testament to that ;) (just kidding)
We both know that all to often at shows it comes down to who you know and what you know. The person on the end of the lead often has as much influence on the judge as the conformation of the dog does.
I've seen dogs refuse to run, stand disgracefully even growl or snap at judges and still get placed. A dog willing to stand, run round a ring and let someone touch them doesn't mean they are of sound mind and character. How many people who have had their dogs attack or bite someone have said 'it was so out of character' ? 90% of them probably.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should castrate a dog as a punishment or even as a quick fix.
But it does help in certain situations and I certainly would recommend that the average dog owner who just wants a pet does consider neutering asap.
As for the theory of dogs understanding words I find it amusing that you claim any good dog psychologist will confirm this.
How can any canine psychology be 'good' when it is based on human psychology? Surely we have to try to look at things from a canine point of view? And if we do that then there is no evidence to suggest that dogs interact in a human verbal way.
I'm not suggesting that your dog doesn't enjoy chasing his coloured balls, whatever floats his boat, but I bet he enjoys the natural things more, like going for walks etc? Dogs can become conditioned to certain things but who's mind are we trying to satisfy when we ask them to do unnatural things? Ours or theirs?

[buggyracer]

I too show dogs buggyracer, in fact my great dane boy has also won many championship classes and came 2nd in his class at crufts.
Please do not assume my dogs are bored, far from it.

Although I really don't want to get in to an argument about unstable frightened dogs not doing well at shows, I do have to disagree, you are testament to that ;) (just kidding)
We both know that all to often at shows it comes down to who you know and what you know. The person on the end of the lead often has as much influence on the judge as the conformation of the dog does.
I've seen dogs refuse to run, stand disgracefully even growl or snap at judges and still get placed. A dog willing to stand, run round a ring and let someone touch them doesn't mean they are of sound mind and character. How many people who have had their dogs attack or bite someone have said 'it was so out of character' ? 90% of them probably.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should castrate a dog as a punishment or even as a quick fix.
But it does help in certain situations and I certainly would recommend that the average dog owner who just wants a pet does consider neutering asap.
As for the theory of dogs understanding words I find it amusing that you claim any good dog psychologist will confirm this.
How can any canine psychology be 'good' when it is based on human psychology? Surely we have to try to look at things from a canine point of view? And if we do that then there is no evidence to suggest that dogs interact in a human verbal way.
I'm not suggesting that your dog doesn't enjoy chasing his coloured balls, whatever floats his boat, but I bet he enjoys the natural things more, like going for walks etc? Dogs can become conditioned to certain things but who's mind are we trying to satisfy when we ask them to do unnatural things? Ours or theirs?

Well it would take a pretty poor judge to mark up a dog that was a cowering nervous wreck, at shows judges who dont give the dogs a right going over touching them and checking feet/teeth and any other alinements etc imo shouldnt be in the postion they are in, and the same for a dog that wins a show that shows a nervous disposition again it has no right to, no matter how it looks, as it shows it hasnt been socialised and basically shows poor stockmanship, something that should be discouraged not ecouraged by being placed.


Yes you are correct sometimes its the wrong end of the lead that is being judged and it the name rather than the dog that wins it, but as i have only started recently showing i can gladly say i am not or have not been taken this way, many shows i go to i know no-body at them and still come home with the right result.

Yes a dog that shows well and doesnt show anger towards the judge etc doesnt prove its soundness of mind, but one that does bite etc certainly does.

it may or may not help, nothing is guaranteed, but i would explore every possible avenue first and only treat it as a last resort.

canine pysoclogy is just that looking at it from a dogs point of view, nothing annoys me more than when people treat there dogs like humans beleive me.

im not just talking about chasing a ball, i can name several objects in the house that i can ask him to go and find and bring back and out of a big pile of them he will come with what i ask, he undertands the difference.

and beleive me when i use my dogs to work they enjoy nothing more, perhaps you could come out with your purely show dogs for a day and see it first hand, and then ask yourself which do your dogs prefer showing or working?

great danes were worked at one stage, what type of work was it? its probably illeagal now lol, but i am interested to know.

At the end of the day we, like it or not share a common ground, a compassion for animals, we may argue over who is right or wrong but the owner of the said animal is the one who feeds it and cleans up its mess in this case :) so its up to them what they do with it.

[porshiepoo]

and beleive me when i use my dogs to work they enjoy nothing more, perhaps you could come out with your purely show dogs for a day and see it first hand, and then ask yourself which do your dogs prefer showing or working?

Our GSD's do actually do some work round here you know.
Yeah right! :lol:
Jack Russells are fox hunters aren't they???? Hope you ain't doing that???


great danes were worked at one stage, what type of work was it? its probably illeagal now lol, but i am interested to know.

Originally Great danes were bred in Germany (despite the name) and were used for hunting wild boar and in my opinion should be in the hound group instead of working, but there you are.
Have to admit that my reluctance to get some much needed piggies on this land stems from that very fact. :lol:




At the end of the day we, like it or not share a common ground, a compassion for animals, we may argue over who is right or wrong but the owner of the said animal is the one who feeds it and cleans up its mess in this case so its up to them what they do with it.

Aye, I guess there's no argueing with that.

Incidentally, as far as I'm aware I've never been placed in a show before my dog. Eek! I stayed away from the 'click' really cos of all the back stabbing, I couldn't be bothered with it.
Makes it all the more amusing when you beat the 'bigger names' though. lol.

What shows do you attend? Not got alot of choice up here! I think Edinburghs the nearest champ show. Theres a fair few open shows though but it's still a shame that we're forgotten about up here. It makes this showing lark a tad expensive.

[buggyracer]

Our GSD's do actually do some work round here you know.
Yeah right! :lol:
Jack Russells are fox hunters aren't they???? Hope you ain't doing that???



Originally Great danes were bred in Germany (despite the name) and were used for hunting wild boar and in my opinion should be in the hound group instead of working, but there you are.
Have to admit that my reluctance to get some much needed piggies on this land stems from that very fact. :lol:




Aye, I guess there's no argueing with that.

Incidentally, as far as I'm aware I've never been placed in a show before my dog. Eek! I stayed away from the 'click' really cos of all the back stabbing, I couldn't be bothered with it.
Makes it all the more amusing when you beat the 'bigger names' though. lol.

What shows do you attend? Not got alot of choice up here! I think Edinburghs the nearest champ show. Theres a fair few open shows though but it's still a shame that we're forgotten about up here. It makes this showing lark a tad expensive.

For the record fox hunting isnt illeagal, as long as it is on ground where game birds are present and for the protection of them and certain guidlines are followed, but no i use them for ratting and rabbiting.

Boarhunting i knew they did have a past working heritage.

i attend working dog shows and shows organised by the jack russell terrier club of great britain, so slightly different to KC shows, but the same format and setup, although should i want to i could enter the KC ones as my dog has a five generation pedigree through the JRTC GB, and some do cross over to do KC shows, but i agree it is a serious money burner, most shows are around the perth/kinross and central belt area, its something to do during the summer and i limit myself to 1-2 a month as after you take in the fuel/food costs etc it soon adds up.

But what i like about showing is i put so much effort into my dogs feeding them the correct or best foods and conditioning them that its nice for someone else to think so also, it makes it worth it.

[gary.b]

Semen collection is quite successful and particularly in the case of a valuable dog in case of injury or death. You don't lose the blood line. Kruger, the dog in question, is the result of frozen and imported semen. He is a champion dog and his co owner wants his semen collected whether he is castrated or not. He has been know to get a bit of an infection around the time of year when females naturally come into season. The only two remedies of this is to castrate or mate him. As we don't want just any old dog getting his babies, he castration is the better option. He wont be tortured with all the smells in the air.

Buggyracer, thank you for that info, it makes sense, as he is quite a timid dog and i have always put it down to his previous owner being very tough on him, mainly because he has many males and needs to stay on top. I think perhaps he is very insecure and so that could be making the marking process more important to him. I try to be the leader and am mostly successful, but he has gotten worse since I moved them outside. Anyway, I will just try covering up the scent and after he has everything else done things may change. Regardless, he is a great dog, and I wouldn't swap him for anything. Even if occaisionally I get fed up with the stinky piddling problem.

Lolabelle, I'm aware of the "in's and out's" of artificial insemination and reasons for preserving semen samples, I was involved in setting up an A.I. unit for one of the UK's largest Police Forces.
What I say in my posts are only my own opinion, and if I had a valued stud dog I really would explore every other avenue before having him castrated.
I hope you find another solution.

[emb123]

thankyou, your one looks a craker too, i like the markings on him, i have a bitch with heavy marking like yours, albeit black instead of tan.
thanks buggyracer - he's got a personality as good as he looks. Bit on the timid side though. I got him at 7 months and he'd not had a good start. Was in a rabbit hutch in the back garden in November when I picked him up and in a terrible state.

----------------

Far as the castration thing goes for Loalbelle, it's a really tough call. There is always the potential problem of prostate problems and cancer in later years which you don't get with a neutered dog, but if personality is not a problem with an intact adult male dog then it seems a shame to do it. Would solve a few problems but create a few too.

As a by the by, back where I used to live was a rather agressive retriever (amazingly) that was over-randy with any female creature. In the end it's female owner had him seen to and he became very timid and afraid of other dogs. Sorted the other problem out too. He got over the timidness in time for the most part.

[crayola]

Good couple of post there Buggyracer, I agree castration does seem to be the answer for every behavioral problem discussed on this forum.I agree wholeheartedly. Shouldn't this thread be on General? ;)

[buggyracer]

thanks buggyracer - he's got a personality as good as he looks. Bit on the timid side though. I got him at 7 months and he'd not had a good start. Was in a rabbit hutch in the back garden in November when I picked him up and in a terrible state.

.

youe are joking!! what a shame, it disguts me how people can treat dogs at times.

he sounds like he landed on his feet though!! :)

[Lolabelle]

Far as the castration thing goes for Loalbelle, it's a really tough call. There is always the potential problem of prostate problems and cancer in later years which you don't get with a neutered dog, but if personality is not a problem with an intact adult male dog then it seems a shame to do it. Would solve a few problems but create a few too.

As a by the by, back where I used to live was a rather agressive retriever (amazingly) that was over-randy with any female creature. In the end it's female owner had him seen to and he became very timid and afraid of other dogs. Sorted the other problem out too. He got over the timidness in time for the most part.

The real problem is not with the dog, but that I am a co owner. The amount of Rhodesian Ridgebacks in Australia for sale is ridiculous, there is a real glut of the market. We don't want to breed him at this stage. And I don't want to show him, I just haven't got the time and the type popular with the judges is different than that in Europe, where Krugers dad is champion everything. I don't neccesarily want to have him "fixed" cause I don't want to change him... I know, I know. I want to change his peeing near the house, but not his nature and temperament. My ex brother in law wants him done, and I can see the merits. I will get him done, because that is the agreement. As for the smelly dog wee, well, I will just wash up after him and put up with it I guess.

Porshiepoo, I see what you mean by dogs understanding a tone of voice, but I am convinced they can understand words. If I even mention the word "car" in a conversation on the phone or talking to Dave, they both go crazy, they run back and forth between the car and the back door. There are many other words like this. If I give them a dog treat, I ask them if the want a lollie and they both sit immediatley. But they also sit, drop, roll over, stay etc... on command, and I can ask them in a whisper, and without looking at them. I guess it doesn't really matter, but I do think they understand quite a bit. If only by assosiation, it is still an understanding.

[porshiepoo]

The real problem is not with the dog, but that I am a co owner. The amount of Rhodesian Ridgebacks in Australia for sale is ridiculous, there is a real glut of the market. We don't want to breed him at this stage. And I don't want to show him, I just haven't got the time and the type popular with the judges is different than that in Europe, where Krugers dad is champion everything. I don't neccesarily want to have him "fixed" cause I don't want to change him... I know, I know. I want to change his peeing near the house, but not his nature and temperament. My ex brother in law wants him done, and I can see the merits. I will get him done, because that is the agreement. As for the smelly dog wee, well, I will just wash up after him and put up with it I guess.

Breed standards seem to be open to interpretation unfortunately. The breed standard is the breed standard so should be quite black and white but you'd be amazed at the amount of people I know who have fantastic great danes but don't show them cos they're considered too big! How the heck can a great dane be too big?????????
GSD's are the same at the moment as far as I'm concerned. They do not represent the GSD's as we all know them, they appear tiny with back ends that look dangerously deformed. In fact I read once that police forces were looking into other breeds as the GSD's being bred today just don't have so much scare factor.
We always try to keep to the old english type - straight backed, big and chunky. I hate to see weaknesses bred in.






Porshiepoo, I see what you mean by dogs understanding a tone of voice, but I am convinced they can understand words. If I even mention the word "car" in a conversation on the phone or talking to Dave, they both go crazy, they run back and forth between the car and the back door. There are many other words like this. If I give them a dog treat, I ask them if the want a lollie and they both sit immediatley. But they also sit, drop, roll over, stay etc... on command, and I can ask them in a whisper, and without looking at them. I guess it doesn't really matter, but I do think they understand quite a bit. If only by assosiation, it is still an understanding.We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. :lol:
I think maybe they've learnt to associate the word with the object, that's as far as it goes. They don't actually understand the meaning of words.

[buggyracer]

your quite right, showing and the kc breeders have a lot to answer for, breeding for looks alone has spoiled many breeds, as the GSD,s hind legs example has shown, another one is the english bull terrier, i read a good article about GSD,s and EBT,s last year i beleive it is online it compared the old ebt,s and the new ebts skulls, the enlarged nose area is purely a modern thing and has no function whatsoever, other than impare breathing and to make it look different, it is purely cosmetic, and imo a wrong.

[porshiepoo]

your quite right, showing and the kc breeders have a lot to answer for, breeding for looks alone has spoiled many breeds, as the GSD,s hind legs example has shown, another one is the english bull terrier, i read a good article about GSD,s and EBT,s last year i beleive it is online it compared the old ebt,s and the new ebts skulls, the enlarged nose area is purely a modern thing and has no function whatsoever, other than impare breathing and to make it look different, it is purely cosmetic, and imo a wrong.

Yep completely wrong. It seems to be the done thing nowadays with lots of different breeds to breed them with conformation faults that impair the functionality of the breed.
Could the GSD's of today carry out the work that they were originally bred for? Doubt it personally. They don't look like they could go for 1/2 mile let alone a days herding etc.
These small danes wouldn't be able to either. I know theres not much chance of them actually doing a days boar hunting but it's just as well cos they'd not be able to - especially with their cropped ears! :eek:
I know the theory around smaller danes is the hope to breed longevity as the average life span for a dane is only 8 years but when people want a great dane they assume they're buying a big dog.

The squashed nose breeds are another example as you point out. They seem to have severe breathing difficulties and the pressure this must put on their heart and lungs is just ridiculous.
I remember reading about a breed once too that had had such awful hip problems bred in over the years that they couldn't have natural births. Why do it??????

[Lolabelle]

The afore mentioned co owner of Kruger, brother in law, also breeds english mastiffs, and his are beautiful big ones, but the ones winning at the moment have small narrow heads that are nothing like the standard. I hate showing, it is so political. I used to show horses and that is part of the reason I don't bother with the dogs. We got our girl desexed because she had really bad conformation in her hind quarter. It came from her dad and he should never have been bred. I am not interested in breeding either, but if I did, I would be interested in improving the prodgeny not breeding more and more problems. There are many breeders with no real care for future of the breed, just with looking to earn money.

Oh and Porshiepoo, I agree that the dogs know to assosiate a word with an object, but isn't that all we do too. Someone teaches us to assossiate a word with an object....

I know my dogs can't read, yet.... But I'm on to it. ;)

[teenybash]

If you want to get rid of the peey pong use baking powder.
Sprinkle lberally on the offending area and leave for a couple of hours and then brush up or hoover. It should absorb the offending smells. It can also be used on carpets as a deoderiser and you can even add a few drops of your favourite perfumed oil and give the tub a bit of a shake to mix it through...better that any chemical based carpet freshner. Worth a try in combatting your Alpha males natural doggy way......castration is the better option.but baking powder/soda should clear the smellies.:lol:

[Lolabelle]

If you want to get rid of the peey pong use baking powder.
Sprinkle lberally on the offending area and leave for a couple of hours and then brush up or hoover. It should absorb the offending smells. It can also be used on carpets as a deoderiser and you can even add a few drops of your favourite perfumed oil and give the tub a bit of a shake to mix it through...better that any chemical based carpet freshner. Worth a try in combatting your Alpha males natural doggy way......castration is the better option.but baking powder/soda should clear the smellies.:lol:
Will definately give that a go.