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NickInTheNorth
13-May-07, 09:10
rather than have the do you believe in God thread totally hijacked about my parenting I thought I would start this one.

I posted on the God thread is response to this post:


Originally Posted by Spring Flower
i do believe in god however this is tested when there are tradegy's - or as in the current news the case of Madeleine McCann. I sometimes think if there is a god why is he making this little girl and her family suffer so much. I only hope she is returned safe and well. Her family seem to be getting a great deal of strength from praying so they must have a strong belief however I just keep thinking why was it necessary for this to have happened?

Originally posted by NickInTheNorth

It was totally unnecessary for this to have happened. God is nothing to do with it.

If the grieving parents had the wit to not leave children unattended then the chances are it would not have happened.

I too hope (but doubt) that the poor wee mite is returned safe and well to her parents. I also hope her parents reflect on their stupidity.

NickInTheNorth
13-May-07, 09:12
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickInTheNorth http://forum.caithness.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?p=222667#post222667)
I am far from perfect as a parent, but I do not believe in abandoning my kids to their own devices for however short a period of time. Or however short a distance.

There are many things that may happen to me and my children in the course of our lives, but I can assure you that my children will never be abducted from out with my direct supervision at the age of 3.


Originally posted by j4bberw0ck

Yes. I'm sure the McCann's would never have thought it, either, 50 metres in line of sight from the apartment in which the children were asleep, on the same complex, and popping back every few minutes to make sure they were OK. I'm sure many people on this forum have done similar things - I know I have. Ever left your kids in a car while paying for petrol? Left them unobserved in your garden for a while? Allowed them to go play with other kids at another house?

Getting holier-than-thou about other people's tragedies is unpleasant, unfeeling and unhelpful. Now, can no one find Nick's Perfect Parent Award anywhere?

To which I responded no, no, and only with other kids parents present.

and now I reply to the question of how I manage this

NickInTheNorth
13-May-07, 09:17
Firstly I will differentiate between my 8 year old and 10 year old, and my wee boy who is just coming up 2 in August. The older 2 I am now quite happy to leave in the car, or in the garden, or out to play with friends or the local park, or in the woods, or on the beaches by themselves. The younger one no way.

buying fuel - happens maybe once a month, either at our local shop, in which case I go and get it by myself, while my children are at home, or out playing or whatever. Or we buy it in Fort William on our monthly shopping trip. If that is the case both myself and my wife are there. There is one in the car, one paying for petrol. Incidentally I don't have a major issue with leaving them in the car whilst getting fuel, and it was not what I said originally. It just so happens that currently we do not do so.

Leaving alone in the garden for a while - not at the age of nearly 2, no. Principally because the garden our kids play in is on the edge of a 60 foot sheer drop, and is not securely fenced. My older children happily played in the garden from the age of 2 and 4, without us closely supervising. It was a safe environment for them, so we allowed it.

As to playing at friends, the older ones, no problem at all. The younger one, bit wee to get himself there. But he most certainly has been left with other adults to supervise him.

brandy
13-May-07, 09:21
nick hun, it dosent all ways work that way though. look up the jessica lynch case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lunsford
her family was in the home.
so unfortunatly no matter how hard we try, we can not always be there .
i dont even like to take a shower when its just me and the kids in the house.
as im afraid something will happen and i wouldnt hear, but sometimes i dont have a choice.
i do let my kids play in the garden by their selves. but saying that my garden is completley enclosed, with a 10 ft concrete wall in the back, a five foot fence on the sides. a 3 foot picket fence at the bottom of teh garden with gate, then a big 6 ft. gate leading out of the garden, with two latches one lower and one higher. i always leave the back door open, and can see them thru the window. i can safely do my ironing then without little curious hands getting in the way.

NickInTheNorth
13-May-07, 09:22
Having answered that, I would just like to ask a straight forward question.

Is it right to leave a child of not quite four years old outwith adult supervision. For however long or short a period of time?

My own thoughts are that in principal no it is not. At that age they are too young to be responsible for themselves.

And as this all started with a comment about the missing child in Portugal, I absolutely do not understand why anyone would even consider leaving three children unsupervised in an apartment in a strange place.

It clearly was not in line of sight, or the parents would have seen the abductors abducting.

NickInTheNorth
13-May-07, 09:28
nick hun, it dosent all ways work that way though. look up the jessica lynch case.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lunsford
her family was in the home.

I totally agree that no matter what we do bad things can and do happen. And that is not what I trying to suggest - that we can keep our children 100% guaranteed safe.

I am not that naive.

What I am saying quite vigorously is that I do not believe that it is appropriate to leave three children alone in a building without supervision. Whilst out enjoying a meal.

It was only 50 yards and in line of sight - so I am told.

No excuse!

Children are our responsibility until they are of an age to take some responsibilty for themselves. My opinion is that 4 years old is not such an age. (Indeed the criminal law seems to believe that not until 12 can a child tell right from wrong, and thus be responsible for their actions).

brandy
13-May-07, 09:38
you are right about children should not be left alone, im not disputing that. but what is done is done, and tragically it can not be undone.
they will never forgive theirselves for what has happened.
and quite possibly this is going to ruin their entire lives.
their is a great number of couples who can not handle the loss of a child. and end up divorced or worse. its not unheard of , of parents so consumed with guilt to commit suicide.
i think that what has backs riled up, is not the fact that you have correctly said, they should not have been left alone. but blaming them will not help.
they will be blaming themselves enough as it is, and no matter how this turns out, they will never ever forgive themselves.
this is where human compasion comes in, and we dont point fingers saying they should have shouldnt have. instead saying, you have our support and we will not judge you,
as they are truthfully devestated, and falling apart.
all we can do is hope for the best.

NickInTheNorth
13-May-07, 09:51
Discussing God someone used the story of the McCann's and asked why it was neccessary for this to have happened.

I simply stated that it was not necessary, and how it might have been avoided, and had nothing to do with God. What I never said in so many words is that it is all down to human frailty.

Of course I feel the deepest of compassion for these people, but that will not bring back their daughter - though I truly hope something does. I am not blaming them - simply stating facts.

For sure the McCann's did not wish this to happen, but the entire world not saying the obvious, and almost seeming to condone the behaviour does nothing to help anyone either.

Angela
13-May-07, 09:54
you are right about children should not be left alone, im not disputing that. but what is done is done, and tragically it can not be undone.
they will never forgive theirselves for what has happened.
and quite possibly this is going to ruin their entire lives.
their is a great number of couples who can not handle the loss of a child. and end up divorced or worse. its not unheard of , of parents so consumed with guilt to commit suicide.
i think that what has backs riled up, is not the fact that you have correctly said, they should not have been left alone. but blaming them will not help.
they will be blaming themselves enough as it is, and no matter how this turns out, they will never ever forgive themselves.
this is where human compasion comes in, and we dont point fingers saying they should have shouldnt have. instead saying, you have our support and we will not judge you,
as they are truthfully devestated, and falling apart.
all we can do is hope for the best.

Well said brandy, my first thought was also that the children shouldn't have been left alone, but my over-riding feeling is of compassion and sadness.
I see no point whatsoever in raking over this. I doubt very much that Madeleine will be returned safely to her parents, although I still try to hope for the best. Even if she is returned, they will have to live with the feeling of "if only" for the rest of their lives.
Sorry, Nick, but I think your self-righteousness is showing.

brandy
13-May-07, 09:55
true, cant really say anything against that statment. i want to say something about the God thread but refuse to as i said i wouldnt add to it. *G* so will msg you what i think

Ash
13-May-07, 09:56
:mad: the parents of this little girl never knew that this would happen, so im sorry but for anyone to have a go at them is madness, they know what they did was silly and my god arent they paying for it enough now without people calling them stupid or bad parents, when it comes to god everyone has their own opinion and in mine if he is real paedophiles and missing children shouldnt happen!

NickInTheNorth
13-May-07, 10:02
I am NOT saying they are bad parents.

They made a mistake.

What has happened has happened.

Not stating the obvious does not help anyone.

Have we really and truly come to the point where in this modern PC society of ours it is unacceptable to even make an honest comment about a tragic set of circumstances, without being pilloried for it?

Ash
13-May-07, 10:10
well seeing as everyone is feeling the same, it does not need to be said, i feel guilty for thinking that it was really stupid thing til do! but it doesnt need to be said, everyone has their own point of view but somethings are better left unsaid, and why have a poll asking people if they believe in god and if not why,when u cant handle peoples answers!

Angela
13-May-07, 10:23
I am NOT saying they are bad parents.

They made a mistake.

What has happened has happened.

Not stating the obvious does not help anyone.

Have we really and truly come to the point where in this modern PC society of ours it is unacceptable to even make an honest comment about a tragic set of circumstances, without being pilloried for it?

I agree, they made a mistake. I wouldn't, and didn't, ever leave any of my children alone at that age in these circumstances. I don't honestly understand why Madeleine's parents did.
I'm sure most folk agree with you on that.
But if I had made a mistake that resulted in one of my kids being abducted, I wouldn't really need people telling me about it. I'd be only too well aware of it myself.
I think I would appreciate that folk could be supportive even though they did think I'd done one silly thing, which wouldn't make me an irresponsible or uncaring parent. I'm sure that much more irresponsible parents do "get away with it" on a daily basis. Lots of us would admit to things which, with the benefit of hindsight, were not the wisest things to do.
The person who is responsible for Madeleine's abduction is the person who abducted her.
I feel that it's partly because we do identify with her parents, and the thought of something so dreadful happening to our own children or grandchildren is really too awful to contemplate, that we fasten onto reasons why it couldn't happen to us. So, in this case, we think, och well, I'd never do that! so it couldn't happen to me!

porshiepoo
13-May-07, 10:54
Have we really and truly come to the point where in this modern PC society of ours it is unacceptable to even make an honest comment about a tragic set of circumstances, without being pilloried for it?[/QUOTE]

You're on the org and you have to ask that! ;)

I commented on this tragic event in the thread dedicated to Maddy so I'll not rake through it all again suffice to say I experienced (albeit only half an hour) my twins being taken from their cots (family member though) and not knowing where they'd gone.
Those 30 mins were the worst 30 mins of my life and trying to sweep the fact that this was my fault under the carpet would have helped no one.
The guilt I felt was indescribable so I cannot even begin to imagine how Maddy's parents feel.
Yes, they made a whopper of a mistake and sadly it looks more and more likely that that is something they're going to have to live with for the rest of their lives.
Hopefully Maddy will be found safe and well, if not, then I suspect the nightmare is just beginning for them.

sam
13-May-07, 11:02
I personnaly dont think any young kid should be left alone for any length of time whether 5 minutes or 50 minutes, but as in the case of Madaline McCann, we can all say how wrong it was of her parents to leave their kids alone, but at the end of the day they have to live the rest of their lives with the consequence's even if they do get her back ( and i hope and pray to god that they do) And no one can even begin to imagine what hell they are going through unless they to have had to go through it.

golach
13-May-07, 11:22
John 8:7......................:(

sam
13-May-07, 11:28
John 8:7......................:(

for those who dont know what john 8.7 means ........He who is without sin cast the first stone.

what is right for one person isnt always right for another so we will always have those who dissagree its life.
we all have our own ways to bring up our kids and it isnt always going to be the right way, thats just part of learning to be a parent

Max
13-May-07, 12:43
Those poor parents and that poor wee girl - I am sorry I cannot comdemn them for what they did. Their suffering cannot be imagined by any of us. Once a family member pushed my shopping trolley away from me when my wee boy was very young. I had only looked away for a second and I looked around and he was gone. For that split second before I saw him I had a feeling of complete horror. That feeling is what those parents must have every minute of every day.

Spring Flower
13-May-07, 15:29
message removed

horseman
13-May-07, 22:03
Well said golach, there is not one of us can say the opposite ...

JAWS
14-May-07, 00:17
Sorry, I have no sympathy with the parents whatsoever. I certainly hope that her twin and any other siblings are put on the "At Risk Register" when they return to Britain.

This was not a "one off" occurrence, the parents were in the habit of leaving the children alone in the apartment and going off with their friends during the evening. What makes it worse, as far as I am concerned, is that it was in a place which was strange to them and would therefore be a completely unknown quantity.

My sympathy goes totally to the missing girl and her siblings and I hope, though I have real doubts, that she is found safe and well.

One thing that does puzzle me is that if, as is being strongly suggested, somebody has watched and carefully planned what happened why anybody would choose to abduct on of twins and run the additional risk of having the other one screaming the place down as soon as she realise her twin was not there.

Spring Flower
14-May-07, 00:43
Sorry, I have no sympathy with the parents whatsoever. I certainly hope that her twin and any other siblings are put on the "At Risk Register" when they return to Britain.

This was not a "one off" occurrence, the parents were in the habit of leaving the children alone in the apartment and going off with their friends during the evening. What makes it worse, as far as I am concerned, is that it was in a place which was strange to them and would therefore be a completely unknown quantity.

My sympathy goes totally to the missing girl and her siblings and I hope, though I have real doubts, that she is found safe and well.

One thing that does puzzle me is that if, as is being strongly suggested, somebody has watched and carefully planned what happened why anybody would choose to abduct on of twins and run the additional risk of having the other one screaming the place down as soon as she realise her twin was not there.

it wasn't one of the twins that was taken. madeleine is the older sister and she has a twin brother and sister who are a couple of years younger than her.

j4bberw0ck
14-May-07, 09:53
Sorry, I have no sympathy with the parents whatsoever.

Surprised at you, JAWS. I still can't see how any normally-adjusted human being could fail to have sympathy for people finding themselves in the position of the the McCanns. As for the "at risk" register - now you're really over the top. What an extraordinarily Calvinistic approach to life, strongly reminiscent of Dreadnought and his denial of NHS resources to smokers, drinkers and drug addicts because "they brought it on themselves".

Penelope Pitstop
14-May-07, 09:58
Sorry, I have no sympathy with the parents whatsoever. I certainly hope that her twin and any other siblings are put on the "At Risk Register" when they return to Britain.

This was not a "one off" occurrence, the parents were in the habit of leaving the children alone in the apartment and going off with their friends during the evening. What makes it worse, as far as I am concerned, is that it was in a place which was strange to them and would therefore be a completely unknown quantity.

My sympathy goes totally to the missing girl and her siblings and I hope, though I have real doubts, that she is found safe and well.

One thing that does puzzle me is that if, as is being strongly suggested, somebody has watched and carefully planned what happened why anybody would choose to abduct on of twins and run the additional risk of having the other one screaming the place down as soon as she realise her twin was not there.

Looks like you haven't quite got to grips with the facts about this tragedy. As has been pointed out she wasn't one of the twins.....:confused

I've been reading this thread over the last few days and some of the comments have really been preying on my mind.

Golach's right ......if your perfect (not aimed at just you Jaws. lol) then just keep chucking those stones!!

I think life is a long road and who knows what will be cast up to us in the future........probably through no fault of our own (just glad I don't know in advance)

NickInTheNorth
14-May-07, 10:00
I think life is a long road and who knows what will be cast up to us in the future................probably through no fault of our own (just glad I don't know in advance)

interesting definition of no fault of our own...

It still makes the same sense, but happy to quote the full passage you are keen to see ;)

Penelope Pitstop
14-May-07, 10:05
interesting definition of no fault of our own...

So you think that all bad fortune that life bestows someone will of course have been their own fault????

NickInTheNorth
14-May-07, 10:16
no, but some undoubtedly is, but many people seem to want to pretend that whatever course of action we choose we should be absolved of any blame if that course of action turns out to be less than wise

porshiepoo
14-May-07, 10:23
So you think that all bad fortune that life bestows someone will of course have been their own fault????



I have complete compassion for the McCanns at this time but this event is due to their actions, is it not?

I have to wonder, would this whole event have unfolded differently if Mrs McCann had been an unmarried single mother claiming benefits? Would we have all branded her an unfit mother? Insisted all remaining children go on the 'at risk' register? Would we have found the same amount of compassion for the mother?
Just asking so don't shoot me! ;)

Penelope Pitstop
14-May-07, 10:29
I wrote:

I think life is a long road and who knows what will be cast up to us in the future........probably through no fault of our own (just glad I don't know in advance)

Read the post NinTN don't twist it..........:confused



http://forum.caithness.org/images/misc/progress.gif

Penelope Pitstop
14-May-07, 10:35
I have complete compassion for the McCanns at this time but this event is due to their actions, is it not?

I have to wonder, would this whole event have unfolded differently if Mrs McCann had been an unmarried single mother claiming benefits? Would we have all branded her an unfit mother? Insisted all remaining children go on the 'at risk' register? Would we have found the same amount of compassion for the mother?
Just asking so don't shoot me! ;)

IMO I don't think it would be any different. I think 99.9% of people feel nothing by sympathy and sorrow for the whole situation. As a parent I feel heart sorry for the couple.

Single mum on benefits or not, wouldn't make her a bad mum......alcoholic or drug addicted mum would be a different story.

If as the press report, the abducters were watching the wee girl and family, would they have snatched her from anywhere??

NickInTheNorth
14-May-07, 10:40
Single mum on benefits or not, wouldn't make her a bad mum......alcoholic or drug addicted mum would be a different story.

So a person doing this kind of thing in a rational state of mind gets sympathy. Someone incapable of clear thinking that does the same thing is condemned?

There is some very interesting prejudices being displayed methinks.

What if single mum is on prescription meds? Or if single mum is also alcoholic?

The bottom line is that to leave a child unattended to have a cosy meal in a restaurant is plain WRONG!

Penelope Pitstop
14-May-07, 10:48
So a person doing this kind of thing in a rational state of mind gets sympathy. Someone incapable of clear thinking that does the same thing is condemned?

There is some very interesting prejudices being displayed methinks.

What if single mum is on prescription meds? Or if single mum is also alcoholic?

The bottom line is that to leave a child unattended to have a cosy meal in a restaurant is plain WRONG!

I just hope you and yours continue on a happy path in your idealistic world. Be an excellent parent, things will be superb......that'll keep the monsters away.

NickInTheNorth
14-May-07, 10:52
OK, lets get down to basics.

Is it right or wrong to leave a child alone whilst having a meal in a "nearby" restaurant?

Moby
14-May-07, 10:57
Have any of the posters on this thread thought for one minute how hurtful this thread is to any parent who has "lost" a child?

No matter what the situation they will always alway always blame themselves - they do not need to be hung drawn and quartered in this manner.

squidge
14-May-07, 11:02
I have complete compassion for the McCanns at this time but this event is due to their actions, is it not?

I have to wonder, would this whole event have unfolded differently if Mrs McCann had been an unmarried single mother claiming benefits? Would we have all branded her an unfit mother? Insisted all remaining children go on the 'at risk' register? Would we have found the same amount of compassion for the mother?
Just asking so don't shoot me! ;)

LOL - guns at the ready porshiepoo.

the person responsible for the abduction is the abductor - thats it. Madeleine's parents made a mistake, a terrible one, they calculated a risk that they would hear their children if they woke, that they would see if their children tried to leave the apartment because they were only 150 feet away. They checked regularly and found they were safe and asleep. the windows were locked and they probably chekced that the children couldnt open them. They chose to do that rather than leave their children with an unknown babysitter employed by the complex whom they maybe felt they didnt trust. They didnt calculate into the risk someone would break in through a window and steal their little girl. THAT is their mistake.

We make calculated risks about our children all the time - if we are lucky we dont ever have to live with the sort of consequences that these poor people have to live with.

Those of you who feel holier than thou about this and have NEVER made a mistake when caring for your children should reflect on the fact that without a doubt you will do so. Whether your children ar three or thirteen there WILL be a time when you will think " crikey think what could have happened!!" Whether you crash the car because of your carelessness, your teenager misses a bus and you are out so they have to walk home when you would rather they didnt, you get your wires crossed with your other half and leave your wee one standing outside the school gates; go into the kitchen to make lunch and your two year old lets themselves out hte house; chat to a visitor at the front door whilst your little one helps themselves to the carving knife out the drawer you didnt think they could reach....

With a bit of luck you wont be facing a trip to casualty or worse a funeral or the anguish that this poor child's parents are going through. the abduction of madeleine is not their fault, they didnt cause it by their actions or inactions - the person whos fault it is is whoever took this little girl. LEts all hope that she has been taken to fill a hole in the life of someone who wants a child so desperately that they cant think straight and not by somoene who's motives are more evil than can be imagined

NickInTheNorth
14-May-07, 11:06
can't really disagree with much of the above, but the question still stands.

Is it right to leave a child (or children) alone whilst you go out to eat a meal at a restaurant?

changilass
14-May-07, 11:08
If this situation prevents other parents from doing the same and leaving their kids unattended then it is worth discussing.

This is being discussed in the media so why should we not discuss it on here.

As for bringing memories to the fore for others who have 'lost' a child (through any circumstances) then I would assume that any one in this situation would not forget anyway.

Kids should not be left on their own, and whilst we can't watch our kids 24/7, leaving them on a regular basis at a certain time and going back to check every half hour, is simply giving a routine that anyone watching can easily take advantage of.

My sympathies lie with the twins, their lives will never be the same again, through no fault of their own.

Penelope Pitstop
14-May-07, 11:09
OK, lets get down to basics.

Is it right or wrong to leave a child alone whilst having a meal in a "nearby" restaurant?

Of course children should be supervised....no one is saying anything different...unless I've missed something.

These monsters wanted this child....they were going to get her, where ever that was going to be.

It could just have easily been a 8 or 10 year old. I know I left my kids in the car whilst I filled up with petrol and went in to pay for it. I would have counted that as being under my supervision.

Just hope they find them....and soon.

golach
14-May-07, 11:09
Have any of the posters on this thread thought for one minute how hurtful this thread is to any parent who has "lost" a child?

No matter what the situation they will always alway always blame themselves - they do not need to be hung drawn and quartered in this manner.
Moby, Thank you, a .Orger with a heart, I did not know any existed:roll:

Angela
14-May-07, 11:10
Have any of the posters on this thread thought for one minute how hurtful this thread is to any parent who has "lost" a child?

No matter what the situation they will always alway always blame themselves - they do not need to be hung drawn and quartered in this manner.

Well, Moby, I don't think there was any need for this thread to be started at all - but most of us that have posted haven't been doing any hanging, drawing or quartering, quite the reverse.:confused

NickInTheNorth
14-May-07, 11:15
Many thanks for that very clear and unambiguous reply. I would agree with you that leaving a child in a car at a petrol station whilst paying for fuel is under your supervision. Though it has to be said that at least one car that has been stolen from a petrol pump whilst the driver was in paying has contained a small child (I cannot remember when, a few years past).

Now could you possibly help me out with another straight answer.

What is this about?


I just hope you and yours continue on a happy path in your idealistic world. Be an excellent parent, things will be superb......that'll keep the monsters away.

porshiepoo
14-May-07, 11:18
LOL - guns at the ready porshiepoo.

the person responsible for the abduction is the abductor - thats it. Madeleine's parents made a mistake, a terrible one, they calculated a risk that they would hear their children if they woke, that they would see if their children tried to leave the apartment because they were only 150 feet away. They checked regularly and found they were safe and asleep. the windows were locked and they probably chekced that the children couldnt open them. They chose to do that rather than leave their children with an unknown babysitter employed by the complex whom they maybe felt they didnt trust. They didnt calculate into the risk someone would break in through a window and steal their little girl. THAT is their mistake.

We make calculated risks about our children all the time - if we are lucky we dont ever have to live with the sort of consequences that these poor people have to live with.

Those of you who feel holier than thou about this and have NEVER made a mistake when caring for your children should reflect on the fact that without a doubt you will do so. Whether your children ar three or thirteen there WILL be a time when you will think " crikey think what could have happened!!" Whether you crash the car because of your carelessness, your teenager misses a bus and you are out so they have to walk home when you would rather they didnt, you get your wires crossed with your other half and leave your wee one standing outside the school gates; go into the kitchen to make lunch and your two year old lets themselves out hte house; chat to a visitor at the front door whilst your little one helps themselves to the carving knife out the drawer you didnt think they could reach....

With a bit of luck you wont be facing a trip to casualty or worse a funeral or the anguish that this poor child's parents are going through. the abduction of madeleine is not their fault, they didnt cause it by their actions or inactions - the person whos fault it is is whoever took this little girl. LEts all hope that she has been taken to fill a hole in the life of someone who wants a child so desperately that they cant think straight and not by somoene who's motives are more evil than can be imagined

Holster them there guns Squidge. :lol:

Like i said before I've done one particular thing that made me really take stock of my actions. Although it was only my sister that took my daughters, was it her fault as the abducter? Nope! The fault was entirely mine as I should not have left the girls and given anyone that chance.
I know it's a different situation to maddy's parents but the fact is still the same, abducter's should not be given the chance.

I've also heard that that patio doors were not locked to the apartment of Mr & Mrs McCann in case of fire. So this pehaps wasn't a pre meditated abducting but more of an opportunist who siezed the chance of unlocked doors. Who knows, this could have even been an opportunist burglar who knew the monetary benefit to himself of what he'd stumbled upon?



Have any of the posters on this thread thought for one minute how hurtful this thread is to any parent who has "lost" a child?

No matter what the situation they will always alway always blame themselves - they do not need to be hung drawn and quartered in this manner.

Who's hanging, drawing and quartering????
This is a topic very close to the hearts of every person, parent or not and we are merely debating the subject and discussing it as we would in any every day conversation.
Don't tell me you haven't put your opinion across on this topic, whether that be on here or at home in private conversations?
Yes, they will always blame themselves but does that mean we shouldn't discuss it?????

Please do not try to turn this thread into 'Their attacking so and so' thread. That is not what we're doing.

porshiepoo
14-May-07, 11:21
can't really disagree with much of the above, but the question still stands.

Is it right to leave a child (or children) alone whilst you go out to eat a meal at a restaurant?

Nope it isn't!

NickInTheNorth
14-May-07, 11:24
Well, Moby, I don't think there was any need for this thread to be started at all - but most of us that have posted haven't been doing any hanging, drawing or quartering, quite the reverse.:confused

I don't think there is any need for the forums, but they are very useful. They allow discussion of many issues between people of very different viewpoints.

For myself, it certainly is not my intention to hang draw and quarter anyone. The McCanns are simply a convenient illustration of a point, from which the discussion ensues.

squidge
14-May-07, 11:24
A question of right and wrong isnt easy to answer.

If the restaraunt if five miles away and your child is three months old and confined to its cot then no one would argue that it is wrong, if your child is ten and you nip next door for dinner with your baby monitor - is that wrong?

And if its wrong to leave your child whilst you go to a restaraunt is it wrong to leave your child outside a shop whilst you go inside, or sleeping in the car whilst you nip into the post office? And what about the woman who left her child in the bath and someone took her - was that wrong? And what about leaving your child in bed whilst you are in the garden? I dont know about right and wrong - we calculate risks and sometimes we dont calculate for the scariest risks because we cant beleive that things could go so wrong.

Blame is not the answer though

Whitewater
14-May-07, 11:28
I have, several times, read this thread, and the "God" thread with interest, and I think I can see where everybody is coming from, all of you making good points according to your own standards, point of view, way of life, and also showing sympathy. My own opinion is that any young child should not be left alone or out of sight for seconds. I say this not from a "holier than thou" attitude, but from experience. Many years ago one of my friends had a young boy, 3 years old. He was in the room with his parents, crawled behind the sofa and stuck the small part of some toy he was playing with into an electrical socket. Sadly it killed him. He was in a room with his parents and just out of site for a few seconds.

It is so easy to blame parents for the tragedies that befall their children, but are we right to do so? That little boy was in the house, in the same room with has parents. What do we do? His parents to this day have never really recovered.

We should not be too quick to judge and lay blame, I bet all of us has at one time or another left a child unattended, not on purpose, but just by accident or being distracted by something. It takes only seconds for a tragedy to occur.

We should all spare a thought for the parents of this little girl at the moment, and forget about the situation which we all know was wrong, it is too late now to rectify it. I have to agree with "golach" and his excellent reference. Whether you are a bliever or not, you can't deny that the bible quote he refers to is the truth, and applies to all who have contributed to this thread.

NickInTheNorth
14-May-07, 11:35
But is it wrong to discuss the matter, many people seem to be suggesting that is the case.

To me the issues here are fundamentally important. Yes "accidents" do happen. Some preventable, some not. How far do we need to go in protecting our children?

To me the McCanns (or if it is easier to stomach some other hypothetical parents) that leave their 3 under 4 year olds alone in a building whilst enjoying themselves in a restaurant have failed to meet the minimum standards of care due to those children. Others may disagree.

But why should such issues not be discussed? Talking about it, making moral judgements do not make matters any better or any worse for the McCanns. But it is just possible that someone (me included) could just learn something from such an overall discussion.

For example I don't use socket guards, having heard what Whitewater has to say I may well do so in future.

Angela
14-May-07, 11:58
I don't think there is any need for the forums...
Nick, please read my post again! I didn't say there was no need for the "forums". Although, of course, in a sense, there isn't any "need" for them.

With reference to Whitewater's post, a close friend of my younger daughter's -they went to nursery together, aged 4 - was strangled playing in another friend's garden, in a quiet area, the garden gate securely shut. Part of her clothing caught on the climbing frame. The friend's mother was a matter of feet away inside the house, she had gone in to get drinks for the girls. She ran out as soon as she heard her own daughter scream...but too late.

Both families were devastated, (an over-used word, but true in this case)....as were we all.
Exactly what point would there have been in raking this tragedy over and apportioning blame? :confused "There but for fortune go you or go I..."

squidge
14-May-07, 11:58
I dont think its wrong to discuss it - I dont think the parents should be villified because of their mistake and thats my opinion - i have tried to justify that opinion and give reasons why the parents are not the criminals in this matter - but its my opinion - yours and others are absolutely valid - even if i think those opinions might be wrong :Razz .
Having left a bottle of cleaning fluid on the table in the kitchen whilst chatting to my husband In the kitchen and my five year old taking it off the table as he went out into the garden and squirting it down his throat cos he thought it was a water spray - i am well aware of how mistakes can happen. One rush to the hospital later and a very foolish feeling wifie was very releived to find that it wasnt a poisonous cleaner unless he drank enough to bath in it.

NickInTheNorth
14-May-07, 12:03
Sorry for any confusion Angela - it is my rather off centre sense of humour. It is me saying there is no NEED for the forums ;)

As to the 2 examples you give, I agree, very little point in raking over those, there is probably nothing different that anyone would do given the same set of circumstances. We cannot protect our children from life - it happens. But what we can and in my view should do is make sure that we do not contribute to those hazards that life produces.

It may appear that I wrap my children in cotton wool, but nothing could be further from the truth :)

Penelope Pitstop
14-May-07, 13:07
Many thanks for that very clear and unambiguous reply. I would agree with you that leaving a child in a car at a petrol station whilst paying for fuel is under your supervision. Though it has to be said that at least one car that has been stolen from a petrol pump whilst the driver was in paying has contained a small child (I cannot remember when, a few years past).

Now could you possibly help me out with another straight answer.

What is this about?

I also remember a case about a child being abducted whilst in a car at a petrol station - if my memory serves me right it had a happy ending.

No matter how much you protect your child you cannot protect them 100% of the time and you will certainly never eliminate the dangerous/twisted elements inflicted by others (this is outwith even the best parents control).

porshiepoo
14-May-07, 13:56
I also remember a case about a child being abducted whilst in a car at a petrol station - if my memory serves me right it had a happy ending.

No matter how much you protect your child you cannot protect them 100% of the time and you will certainly never eliminate the dangerous/twisted elements inflicted by others (this is outwith even the best parents control).

Unfortunately you're so right there. We cannot protect our children from 100% of dangerous situations, all we can do is protect them from as much as is possible and I think the question here is whether Maddy's parents did do that.
For me the answer has to be no they didn't. Because Maddy was left alone that night the fact is that someone got in and took her from her parents and siblings. I know that the abducter is the real monster here but it's the age old saying about drugs isn't it - if we didn't have the suppliers we wouldn't have the victims.
A potential abducter would not have been able to take Maddy had she been adequately supervised.
Having said that I don't think Mr & Mrs McCann deserve any anomosity pelted at them. Theres no way they would have left their children if they'd known what would happen and the price they, maddy and the entire family are paying now is way worse than anything anyone can say to them.
Like many people here have said, this is something they're going to have to live with for the rest of their lives, regardless of the outcome.
I only hope that they manage to find some peace in the future and don't let any guilt they may feel prevent them from finding peace and happiness in the future. I also hope that the media etc don't make their lives hell when they return.

I think it's safe to say that no matter what anyones opinion on here is regarding what caused these events, every single one of us feels compassion for what that family are having to go through.
Just because we choose to disagree with their actions doesn't mean that we have no remorse or compassion for them as human beings.

fred
14-May-07, 20:04
nick the holier than thou

He seems capable of holding a discussion without throwing insults at other forum members so in my book he certainly is holier than thou.

j4bberw0ck
14-May-07, 21:01
Arf, arf....... laugh? I nearly died did :lol::lol:

George Brims
14-May-07, 22:53
My heart goes out to those parents even though I do feel 150 feet away is too far - depends a bit on the layout I suppose.

As several people have mentioned leaving the kids in the car while paying for petrol I have some words of advice. Take the keys - much harder for a thief to drive of with your car and child, and you really don't want junior starting the engine either. And if you're a non-smoker or a smoker who doesn't light up in the car, throw out the cigarette lighter - kids left in the car unattended have been known to set the car on fire with those things.

Jeemag_USA
14-May-07, 23:13
My heart goes out to those parents even though I do feel 150 feet away is too far - depends a bit on the layout I suppose.

As several people have mentioned leaving the kids in the car while paying for petrol I have some words of advice. Take the keys - much harder for a thief to drive of with your car and child, and you really don't want junior starting the engine either. And if you're a non-smoker or a smoker who doesn't light up in the car, throw out the cigarette lighter - kids left in the car unattended have been known to set the car on fire with those things.

I would never leave small children in a car by themselves, there was an instance in the last couple of years here where a woman left the engine running to run back into the house to get stuff, while she was in she took a phone call before leaving again, when she came back out she had found her child asphixiated because the child stood up to look out of the vans open window and stood on the electric window button without realising what was happening the kid choked himself to death. I'll never forget reading that story. Sorry to bring up such an unfortunate event, but it really did happen.

Toddlers should never be left alone in that kind of circumstances, just my opinion though.

George Brims
14-May-07, 23:58
Most newer cars have better designed window buttons, fortunately. They don't stick out and you have to pull up on them to raise the window, so a small child's foot isn't going to close it. Of course a little one could still open the window and fall out, or get in all kinds of other trouble.

brandy
15-May-07, 00:09
saying that, when we were little our car was ran off into the trees at the bottom of the hill 3 times that i recall!
twice was my brothers and once my little sister.
they got in, pretending to drive, handbrake down and out of gear was all it took.
now this was before power locks and so forth remember.. *G*

JAWS
15-May-07, 00:35
it wasn't one of the twins that was taken. madeleine is the older sister and she has a twin brother and sister who are a couple of years younger than her.My apologies, I thought she was one of the twins.

The fact that she was older than the twins makes it even worse because it means the parents had left even younger babies alone and unattended in a strange place. Quite apart from what happened there was the possibility, which would be far more likely, that a three year old could well get up to mischief and I'll leave it up to you to think about what three year olds are capable of.

The impression that the children were only left "for half an hour" is slightly misleading.
It would appear that, in order to go out socialising, the children would be left and the parents would pop back "every half hour or so" to check on them. In other words the children left for longer periods with one of the parents only checking on them from time to time. The parents, by all accounts, were not even in the proximity of the apartments but 100 to 150 yards away in a restaurant. In Spain places like Restaurants are usually very "child friendly" and I would not think Portugal is any different in that respect.

This was not a moments lapse of attention on behalf of the parents, which can and does happen to all parents at one time or another, but something that was knowingly done on what would appear to be done as a matter of routine, thrusting to luck that nothing would go wrong.
This was not a case of somebody popping out for a couple of minutes or leaving a car to pop in and out of a shop, it was for far longer than that.

The parents were quite willing to take a considered and calculated risk by leaving their children to go out with friends. Had they been doing everything possible to care for them and had a moments lapse of attention they would have my total sympathy but that is far from what would appear to be the case.

Now, of course, it is everybody else's fault that the little girl has not yet been found.

Ash
15-May-07, 12:00
this is bugging me, how many more times is someone gonna say they shouldnt of been left on their own, we already know this, we all have silly moments! in their case they have to deal with the awful consenquences, it can happen even if ur child is in the house with you, remember the little girl who was taking a bath and her mum went to grab a towel and when she came back her daughter was gone, she was later found but had been sexually abused! unless your child is with you 24/7 everyone is at risk of their child being harmed, these parents didnt think someone was going to steal their child, so for goodness sake STOP BADMOUTHING THEM AND PRAY SHE IS FOUND SAFETLY IT DOESNT NEED TO BE REPEATED THAT THEY SHOULDNT HAVE LEFT THEM! [evil]

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 14:01
Sorry Ash, but you at least still seem to be missing the point.

Yes we all make mistakes. Accepted.

What these parents did was an order of magnitude different.

They deliberately decided to leave their three children under four years of age alone in a house while they went off to have fun.

That in my mind goes far beyond an innocent mistake. It cannot be repeated too often that what they did was wrong! And as long as people keep saying it was a mistake and we should leave them alone I will keep saying it was stupidity.

Ash
15-May-07, 14:28
in no way am is saying what they did was right, as a mother of a 3year old i have never done that and never will, im just saying whats the point on stating the obvious facts!

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 14:43
It would appear that despite many people thinking it is obvious to some people it clearly is not (and no, I don't mean you Ash). :)

Penelope Pitstop
15-May-07, 15:45
Now, of course, it is everybody else's fault that the little girl has not yet been found.

I'm not sure if the parents would agree with you. As far as I am aware they have had nothing but praise for the police and members of the public who have been trying to find her. I have not heard them lay blame.

porshiepoo
15-May-07, 15:58
this is bugging me, how many more times is someone gonna say they shouldnt of been left on their own, we already know this, we all have silly moments! in their case they have to deal with the awful consenquences, it can happen even if ur child is in the house with you, remember the little girl who was taking a bath and her mum went to grab a towel and when she came back her daughter was gone, she was later found but had been sexually abused! unless your child is with you 24/7 everyone is at risk of their child being harmed, these parents didnt think someone was going to steal their child, so for goodness sake STOP BADMOUTHING THEM AND PRAY SHE IS FOUND SAFETLY IT DOESNT NEED TO BE REPEATED THAT THEY SHOULDNT HAVE LEFT THEM! [evil]


Ummmm, we're not badmouthing them.
We're having a conversation about this incident and whether it's bugging you or not how the child got taken in the first place is part of the conversation. Don't like it? Don't read it then and don't post replies!

Ash said
in no way am is saying what they did was right, as a mother of a 3year old i have never done that and never will, im just saying whats the point on stating the obvious facts!

Well it's an 'obvious fact' that the child is missing - should we not talk about that either? It's an 'obvious fact' that the other two were not taken - should we not discuss that either?

Unfortunately an 'obvious fact' of this incident is that the children were left unattended in a foreign country, ignoring that fact won't make it not be so.

scorrie
15-May-07, 16:14
As has been said, blaming the parents will not help matters. Having said that, it could be argued that they were negligent.

What amazes me is how one missing child can so dominate the news?

A look at the following link will make one think about what really is considered newsworthy these days:-

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty/death/

How much coverage would this story get if the parents and child were not British?

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 16:22
sobering figures there scorrie - and yes, doesn't it put it all in some kind of perspective.

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 16:24
As to reasons for why this story has dominated the news.

1) she's a very cute wee blonde headed girl
2) she has articulate parents who are prepared to be media fodder
3) the broadcast media now operate at a level about the same as the tabloids did 10 years ago (just above the sewer)

Angela
15-May-07, 16:31
As has been said, blaming the parents will not help matters. Having said that, it could be argued that they were negligent.

What amazes me is how one missing child can so dominate the news?

A look at the following link will make one think about what really is considered newsworthy these days:-

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty/death/

How much coverage would this story get if the parents and child were not British?

I agree -but that's the media for you!

Watching Reporting Scotland the other night, a Glasgow reporter seemed amazed to see that the story was not getting much coverage in, for example, French and German newspapers. But then, why should it?

Her point was perhaps that greater coverage might make it more likely that Madeleine would be found...which would be fair enough.

However, while I do have every sympathy with Madeleine's parents (although mostly I just feel so sad for the little girl herself), I think some of the "support" we are hearing about is taking things a bit far. We don't actually know the people involved, do we?

Angela
15-May-07, 16:33
sobering figures there scorrie - and yes, doesn't it put it all in some kind of perspective.

It does indeed, but then that wouldn't be what is now considered to be "News", would it? :confused

Ash
15-May-07, 16:38
why shouldnt this have so much coverage? A little girl has been stolen, regardless of the child being left alone....what gave this person or people the right to take this little girl![evil]

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 16:43
Why do we need wall to wall coverage of essentially the same facts?

Why do we need all the live from the scene rubbish?

Why have the broadcast media stopped broadcasting news and started being chat shows, and self publicists for there channels other programmes?

And yes the fact that a child has been taken is dreadful, but there are other important proper news stories that never ever get a mention on the news because they won't improve ratings.

And be careful, that's just a taster of my thoughts on the news media we have in this country, don't really get me started ;)

Angela
15-May-07, 16:44
why shouldnt this have so much coverage? A little girl has been stolen, regardless of the child being left alone....what gave this person or people the right to take this little girl![evil]

Well I for one didn't say that anything "gave this person the right to take this little girl". :confused

I do, in fact, think about her every day, and still hope that she will be found safe.

But other things are happening in the world around us...

Ash
15-May-07, 16:54
what like tony blair standing down? who cares,
yes there is other things happening in the world and these stories are being covered

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 17:02
No, not like Tony Blair standing down, that was news last week!

How about the US and Russia arguing over missile plans, or
24 killed in a bombing in Pakistan, or
an oil facility in nigeria being captured by locals, or
the Japanese boy walking into a police station with what he claims is his mother's head

Just a few items of news I've not seen on the BBC rubbish...

Angela
15-May-07, 17:03
what like tony blair standing down? who cares,
yes there is other things happening in the world and these stories are being covered

My point was partly that the story wasn't being covered so much in other countries. And apart from there perhaps being a better chance of finding her if the story did appear elsewhere, I can't see why it should be really.

How much coverage would there still be in the UK press, if Madeleine wasn't British? :confused

Ash
15-May-07, 17:07
im sorry but other news channels are covering everything, at the end of the day british or not a little girl has been abducted...... im saying nothing else as im getting so [evil]

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 17:09
and the BBC repeating the same turgid details every 15 minutes or so is doing what precisely to help...

Ash
15-May-07, 17:18
maybe just maybe there is some people out there that are interested in this little girl and want her to be found safetly rather than people like you complaining about it being on the news!

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 17:22
Ash, please explain to me how ignoring virtually any other news stories, (apart of course from football) and repeating the same well known facts is going to help.

I would very much like the wee girl to be found. as time passes I must admit I get less and less optimistic, but yes I want her found. If there is any NEWS (you may care to check the meaning!) then I would be delighted to see it.

I don't even mind a repeat of the existing facts every hour or so, but the blanket coverage is doing NOTHING to help.

Or can you tell me different?

Ash
15-May-07, 17:24
im not on this to argue, not every channel is repeating it, they are just keeping the public informed! As i said before people want to know what is going on, if your fed up of seeing the same thing repeated stop watching! its a simple as that!

Angela
15-May-07, 17:25
maybe just maybe there is some people out there that are interested in this little girl and want her to be found safetly rather than people like you complaining about it being on the news!

Well, I can only repeat what I've already said -I do think about her every day, and I do hope that she will be found safe.

But until there is some definite news, well it isn't really news is it?

When there is, and I do hope it will be good news, I will be certainly be interested in hearing/seeing/reading it!

And I will be very happy indeed if the news is good.

Ash
15-May-07, 17:27
i was meaning you just feel like im being slated for having my opinion

danc1ngwitch
15-May-07, 17:33
We all make mistakes, I am shocked that there is so little anger towards the kidnappers. ARE WE ALL SO PERFECT WE NEVER STRAY TO THE NEIGHBOURS.
Lets put the blame where the blame belongs cause i will tell you this !!!parents will feel the guilt for this all their lives even if they get their little girl gets back.
My sympathy to them and may their courage stay strong. xxx

jinglejangle
15-May-07, 18:00
We all make mistakes, I am shocked that there is so little anger towards the kidnappers. ARE WE ALL SO PERFECT WE NEVER STRAY TO THE NEIGHBOURS.
Lets put the blame where the blame belongs cause i will tell you this !!!parents will feel the guilt for this all their lives even if they get their little girl gets back.
My sympathy to them and may their courage stay strong. xxx


no we don't all STRAY to the neighbours and that is something which has happened with this case - everyone is saying oh its okay all parents do this - we don't!

the facts are that mr and mrs mccann left their children in their apartment alone sleeping at 7pm - checked them every half an hour or so - although even this has changed numerous times because staff said they were not checking them for at least an hour. the mccanns may have been nearby that night but other nights they left the children and went to bbq on the beach.

i have thought about little else since this little girl went missing and pray that she is found safe and well and i know the parents will be suffering for their actions - but not half as much as madeleine is now because they left their children sleeping in an unlocked apartment - out of sight.

an ex scotland yard officer who has visited the scene does not believe that madeleine was abducted from her bedroom - he believes she wandered out looking for parents and then was abducted [similar to what happened in soham - a chance abduction]. if this is the case - why was this chance abductor given the chance. i am not saying i am perfect by no means but i would never leave my children as they did - i know they are suffering but i am getting fed up of people saying - oh its ok everyone does it.

and other thing as someone else has said - if they had left a thousand pound sitting on view to the public in an unlocked apartment and someone stole it - everyone would say well they only have themselves to blame for being so stupid in leaving it there! so why is people trying to make excuses for them when they left 3 children.

rant over [evil]

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 18:03
well said jinglejangle, an outbreak of (un)common sense on the .org

scotsboy
15-May-07, 18:10
I think the only fact we know is that we don't know all the facts. You can't say that you would not have left your kids in the room - if you had travelled to the place many times and felt comfortable with the surroundings, you may have - whatever the decision the parents made, they did so themselves and they will have to live with that. I cannot condem them as I am not privvy to all the information they had at the time - when the facts become clear.......if they ever do, they we can pontificate, until then we have to accpet the situation as it is........and pray the wee lassie is found safe and well.

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 18:19
I CAN and DO say categorically that no matter how many times I had visited anywhere I would not have left my children alone in any building, hopefully asleep in bed, whilst I went out to enjoy a relaxing meal without the kids.

Kids are not a part time accessory, they are a full time responsibility!

scotsboy
15-May-07, 18:33
I disagree and you can type in caps all you like. I bet you have left your kids in a room seperate from you and unattended, my point is that in doing their "risk assessment" taking into consideration all the surroundings and knowledge of their kids they thought it was acceptable - but I am postulating. I don't know the facts and neither do you.

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 18:39
yes in a room in my house where I can hear and see them. Not 150 yards away while I am out on the lash. You do not know me, and you do not know how I look after my kids. I do.

Caps are purely for emphasis, not shouting!

I repeat it is not something I have or will ever do with children of under 4 years old - which is what we are talking about.

scotsboy
15-May-07, 18:41
What if you had a child monitor which permitted you to hear them?

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 18:47
in a house alone with me away for a meal, no way never, under no circumstances, can you not understand I would not do it. It is fundamental to me and my way of parenting that the children are my responsibility, and neither I (nor anyone else) can take responsibility when 150 yards away. That is plenty of time for a fatal accident you would be unable to prevent.

scotsboy
15-May-07, 18:49
So let me get this straight - you have never left your kids in a room where you could not see or hear them at all times? Do you and the wife take turns to sleep?

Ash
15-May-07, 18:53
i would never leave my kids alone either, there is a difference between being in a restuarant and being in the same house as them, my little girl is 3... she plays in the back garden, but i can always see her, i would never leave her, so im with u nick in the north! although i dont see where this whole discussion is going:confused

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 18:55
The discussion is about leaving them in a building some distance from where the parents are partying.

My children sleep in bedrooms in the house in which I sleep. I don't know if you are aware, but when children wake in the night it is possible to hear them. If there is a problem you are on hand to react. There are limits to how much you can do to protect them. But there is also a huge difference between children and parents sleeping in the same house, and leaving children to fend for themselves in a house whilst out enjoying life without a care in the world.

scotsboy
15-May-07, 18:57
If you recall when your first kid was born, I bet you never took your eyes of it - even woke it up to make sure it was okay........yes, over time you become more comfortable with certain situations - what I am saying is the the McCanns obviously felt comfortable to leave their kids in that situation, I am not saying I agree with that, but that I was not there and do not have all thefacts to say whether that was a sound decision or not.........although hindsight would suggest that it wasn't.

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 18:57
are you a parent scotsboy?

scotsboy
15-May-07, 18:59
The problem for me Nick, is that people jump to conculsions and make up facts - the 150 yards, the parents being on the lash/partying etc etc. Oh how I wish I could inhabit the moral high ground.

JAWS
15-May-07, 18:59
I'm not sure if the parents would agree with you. As far as I am aware they have had nothing but praise for the police and members of the public who have been trying to find her. I have not heard them lay blame.It has been reported that they have employed two London Lawyers who have expertise in such matters to investigate, by using Private Investigators, the actions of the Portuguese Police.
Certainly the implications in the Media here is that the Portuguese police are some sort of hick outfit who would have difficulty finding a glass of wine in a taverna.

The usual British attitude that lazy incompetent foreigners don't do things as well as we do has been prevalent throughout the way this incident was, and still is, being reported.

The Portuguese Legal System obviously takes great care, unlike our system, to prevent "Trial by Media" for the entertainment of the public.

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 19:00
I recall very well when each of my three children was born.

No I never woke them. I sometimes wandered into the room to watch and listen to them sleep.

I never abandoned them to fend for themselves in a house while I went to a restaurant either. And never would.

The McCann's were plain wrong - do you need further proof...

Angela
15-May-07, 19:01
although i dont see where this whole discussion is going:confused


round in circles? :confused

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 19:04
OK scotsboy, let me be plain.

I would not be any further away from my children at under 4 years old than possibly the doorstep when the children are asleep in their beds.

I would not venture to a restaurant (not in question) no matter how far away for a meal.

Not the moral high ground simple common sense caring parenting.

The McCann's made their choices, are you telling me they made the correct choices?

scotsboy
15-May-07, 19:04
My points are nothing to do withthe actions of the McCanns, rather those of others who appear to be taking great credit from pontificating on their own high standards.

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 19:06
you ask questions, or make sweeping statements, and then when someone challenges what you say that is someone pontificating?

I make simple statements about what I would and would not do and you challenge me?

scotsboy
15-May-07, 19:12
I simply disagreed that you would never leave your kids unattended, out of sight or sound for any period of time. I have not siad that I back the actions of the McCanns - simply that I am not in a position to judge as I do not have all the facts. You have set yourself up as a judge and have put your own slant on what you think happened, based on media reports. I will reserve judgement for later.

JAWS
15-May-07, 19:26
The problem for me Nick, is that people jump to conculsions and make up facts - the 150 yards, the parents being on the lash/partying etc etc. Oh how I wish I could inhabit the moral high ground.Which of those facts are made up, apart from the possibility the taverna might only have been 145 yards instead of 150 yards from their apartment?
There is no moral high ground, just an alternate way of looking at what has been made into a highly emotive view of what has happened.

Sorry if one or two of us don’t see things quite the way you wish us to but that’s the way thing sometimes are.

Is there any dispute, even from the parents, that they left their very young children alone in an apartment and went off to a taverna/restaurant, call it what you will, with friends and only went to check on their children, “every half hour or so”? Which specific part of that is “made up facts” or as a result of “jumping to conclusions”?
I’m sure if the “facts” were otherwise then after over 10 days somebody would have corrected any such misconceptions.
Nobody has said at any stage that the information is incorrect neither has anybody questioned any those reports.

Personally I am inclined to feel far more sympathy for the other two children who are apparently asking where their older sister is. I dread to think of the long term emotional damage which has been done to them.

scotsboy
15-May-07, 19:27
partying? On the lash?

NickInTheNorth
15-May-07, 19:34
so would it be ok if they were eating a quiet sedate meal?

so would it be ok if they were partying?

so would it be ok if they were on the lash?

scotsboy
15-May-07, 19:36
I don't know what kind of meal they were having Nick - but you have stated they were on the lash.

All I have said is that I will wait till I have all the facts before I make a judgement.

Max
15-May-07, 19:40
I simply disagreed that you would never leave your kids unattended, out of sight or sound for any period of time. I have not siad that I back the actions of the McCanns - simply that I am not in a position to judge as I do not have all the facts. You have set yourself up as a judge and have put your own slant on what you think happened, based on media reports. I will reserve judgement for later.

I'm with you Scotsboy - don't actually think any of us are in a position to judge. How many parents have looked after their children whilst under the influence of drink? How many parents have let their children run a shop in front of them the children out of sight for a short time? Let them play in the garden whilst you are in the house? Put them out in their pram whilst you run if to the house to get something? Leave them in the car sleeping when you run into a shop? The list is endless and if you were in that awful position that something happened within that split second - the papers would no doubt add some arms and legs to the story and bang you are an awful parent! So now not only do you have to live with the guilt of what you have done, the horror of what has happened but loads of "perfect parents" bitching behind your back. I am not saying the parents are without blame but we cannot forget the criminals are not the parents they are the people who took that child, no matter what the circumstances that is just wrong, and the parents need all the support they can get. Criticism or indeed the removal of their other children just won't help. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

jinglejangle
15-May-07, 19:59
My points are nothing to do withthe actions of the McCanns, rather those of others who appear to be taking great credit from pontificating on their own high standards.

i am sure people are not 'pontificating on their own high standards' - as i have said i can't think of a worse nightmare for her parents no matter what the circumstances are and i pray that everything works out and madeleine is returned safe and well.

however in light of what has happened people are discussing whether or not leaving your child some distance away, out of sight and sound is something that is normal - the amount of times i have heard people saying - 'all parents leave their children' is the part that is getting on my nerves.

take the mccanns and their terrible situation out of the equation - if nickofthenorth or whoever said

'i am going to leave my 3 children under the age of 4 in the royal hotel in thurso with the door unlocked and go to the central for my dinner but i will check the kids every 30 minutes or so' would you say 'good on you nickofthenorth - every parent does that?'

Mister Squiggle
15-May-07, 20:01
I have to say that when I was at the library this afternoon, it struck me that, whilst I was wandering through the adult books section and my two children were in the kids section, I couldn't see them and actually couldn't hear them either.
Now our library trip is something we do every week, without a qualm. If, horror of horrors, something happened in that moment, and I was to lose either or both of them, would I be painted as neglectful because I was not with them at the time? Because they were out of my sight? Because I didn't check they were OK often enough? All I wanted was to get some books and allow them a chance to choose their own without me ranting "we've read that 100 times, can't you pick something different?", but it could backfire.
I think parents often make bad judgments or don't do the right thing at the time, but most of the time we are lucky, we get away with it, nothing bad happens and life spins along on the normal axis. For these parents, it has not. Something terrible has happened and life has become a waking nightmare. Whether they were right, wrong, silly, complacent or too trusting, that's rapidly being overtaken by something far more sinister.
It seems this is such a grey area, because I have found so often that what I think is not alright is not a problem for other parents, or in fact they are surprised because I will allow something they would not dream of. My Mum was a veritable rottweiler when we were all small, yet my aunty was quite happy to leave her baby at home sleeping in his cot when she went to collect the older ones from school. Same family, different standards and fears.
I have wavered on this whole issue, because I know with my own children, they wake up quite a lot at night and I would hate to be away from them if they did so. Because I am so often in and out of their rooms at night, changing wet sheets, finding clean pyjamas, locating lost teddies or chasing away nightmares, the idea of leaving them in the house on their own, regardless of popping back regularly to check, seems madness. But then, surely the ultimate madness resides in the mind of the person who takes a child.

scotsboy
15-May-07, 20:02
No because EVERY parent does not do that.

jinglejangle
15-May-07, 20:05
No because EVERY parent does not do that.

good - we agree on something then! the amount of people speaking about this case is passing off the 'situation' as something acceptable, that all parents would have done. enough said [for just now:) ]

scorrie
15-May-07, 20:46
sobering figures there scorrie - and yes, doesn't it put it all in some kind of perspective.

Yet the thread carries on unabated, arguing about things that will make no difference to the fate of this one girl. Meanwhile, another 30,000 kids will be dead by this time tomorrow and we'll all pretend there is nothing we could do about it.

danc1ngwitch
15-May-07, 21:03
Out of all of this, can any one tell me have they told their child what to do if ever they are taken?. See my wee girl she is 7 listened to the news, and said mum i'd scream like this ahhhhhhhhhh, and shout ur not my mummy.
So in reality, i did not know what to tell her to do. I thought carefully then said " hey what you do is if your thrown into a car you quietly take of your shoe throw it out, and then wait and throw the other one, i told her maybe crying infront of these people might not be a good thing as it might anger them but yes attract attention, steam car windows and write help etc etc " some one tell me please what was i supposed to say?. without frightning her.

jinglejangle
15-May-07, 21:12
Yet the thread carries on unabated, arguing about things that will make no difference to the fate of this one girl. Meanwhile, another 30,000 kids will be dead by this time tomorrow and we'll all pretend there is nothing we could do about it.

maybe it won't change the fate of this wee girl but it should make parents more aware and hopefully reduce the chances of the same thing happening again.

porshiepoo
15-May-07, 21:20
maybe just maybe there is some people out there that are interested in this little girl and want her to be found safetly rather than people like you complaining about it being on the news!

Who's complaining about it being on the news?????

Obviously you want to see her found safe and sound, as do we all.

I'm not getting what your problem is and who you're aiming it at!
If your problem is simply that we're discussing it then don't read any further and don't reply to this thread, at least you're not taking part in something you don't agree with are you!

porshiepoo
15-May-07, 21:25
Out of all of this, can any one tell me have they told their child what to do if ever they are taken?. See my wee girl she is 7 listened to the news, and said mum i'd scream like this ahhhhhhhhhh, and shout ur not my mummy.
So in reality, i did not know what to tell her to do. I thought carefully then said " hey what you do is if your thrown into a car you quietly take of your shoe throw it out, and then wait and throw the other one, i told her maybe crying infront of these people might not be a good thing as it might anger them but yes attract attention, steam car windows and write help etc etc " some one tell me please what was i supposed to say?. without frightning her.


I remember telling my kids to make so much noise that they'd be a liability for someone to keep.
I showed them where to hit or kick to hurt male or female. I showed them to poke their eyes.
I also told them to scream as much as they can and not to believe anything they tell them.

Ash
15-May-07, 21:27
have u not read the previous posts? some members are saying that its all thats on the news, there is other stuff going on in the world! yes i agree there is but your using the internet you can chose what you read,

porshiepoo
15-May-07, 21:30
Yet the thread carries on unabated, arguing about things that will make no difference to the fate of this one girl. Meanwhile, another 30,000 kids will be dead by this time tomorrow and we'll all pretend there is nothing we could do about it.

But plenty of us do try to do things about it.
We give to charities that claim to help these poor countries with the promise of helping these children, yet it still makes no concievable difference.
Maybe that is why we get so angry when something happens to a child that could have been prevented.

We all agree that this is every parents nightmare and I for one would not want the McCanns to come back to this country and be bombarded with criticism for what happened to their family, however, by ignoring whats happened and how it happened what justice are we giving to poor Maddy McCann? This child trusted her parents to keep her safe and when all is said and done they let her down.

jinglejangle
15-May-07, 21:30
I remember telling my kids to make so much noise that they'd be a liability for someone to keep.
I showed them where to hit or kick to hurt male or female. I showed them to poke their eyes.
I also told them to scream as much as they can and not to believe anything they tell them.

did they do this when your sister took them?

porshiepoo
15-May-07, 21:33
have u not read the previous posts? some members are saying that its all thats on the news, there is other stuff going on in the world! yes i agree there is but your using the internet you can chose what you read,

Yep and just like you, at this point in time I choose to read this thread. Further more I choose to debate this topic with other like minded people and I can accept that others will have different opinions to mine. If, however at some point I don't like the turn the thread has taken then I won't read it anymore.

porshiepoo
15-May-07, 21:36
did they do this when your sister took them?

Nope cos they were only a couple of months old.

But I do think that incident made me more protective of them, perhaps even overly.
I can still recall now the absolute devastation I felt when I saw them gone so I can imagine a teeny amount about how the McCanns feel. Fortunately for my daughters and me our outcome was resolved quickly and happily. I dread to think how the outcome could have been and I thank my lucky stars everyday that it didn't go differently.

scorrie
16-May-07, 11:25
But plenty of us do try to do things about it.
We give to charities that claim to help these poor countries with the promise of helping these children, yet it still makes no concievable difference.


It will take more than simply giving money to charity to make a difference. That is the trouble in some ways with charitable donations. We feel badly about something, our conscience makes us give a donation but we then forget about it, feeling better that we have donated and simply assuming that it has helped someone.

To make things work we really need to start thinking on a global scale as a combined human race, rather than our own individual countries and our own, largely rat-race, existences. It will never happen though because the populous, as an individual entity, is akin to a large flock of sheep controlled by a couple of Collies.

That is why the Media will continue to tell us who we should be concerned about, while the stories of children traffiked into Britain to be sold to work as slaves and prostitutes will go unreported.

porshiepoo
16-May-07, 11:34
It will take more than simply giving money to charity to make a difference. That is the trouble in some ways with charitable donations. We feel badly about something, our conscience makes us give a donation but we then forget about it, feeling better that we have donated and simply assuming that it has helped someone.

To make things work we really need to start thinking on a global scale as a combined human race, rather than our own individual countries and our own, largely rat-race, existences. It will never happen though because the populous, as an individual entity, is akin to a large flock of sheep controlled by a couple of Collies.

That is why the Media will continue to tell us who we should be concerned about, while the stories of children traffiked into Britain to be sold to work as slaves and prostitutes will go unreported.

They're not unreported. I think it's more a case of what we choose to listen to in the media.

Personally I think individual countries should concern themselves with their own problems before diving in taking our money and doing sweet FA to actually make a dent in problems of other countries.
Obviously there are things such as child trafikking etc that are global issues and need a combined effort to make any kind of breakthrough.
Problems such as poverty etc though, although I understand the need to help and situations are desperate, I think we should sort our own countries poverty out first. How can we be expected to donate to charities when we have our own people / children starving on the streets, living on the streets, being abused etc?
I do do my bit for charity, especially during times of natural disasters but I just think that similar efforts should be made to make us aware of our countrys crisis'.
You're right, we'll never in a million years make enough of a difference but that's because we don't see one problem through to the end before reaching to solve the next - the world just ends up with heaps of unresolved issues.

scorrie
16-May-07, 12:36
They're not unreported. I think it's more a case of what we choose to listen to in the media.

Personally I think individual countries should concern themselves with their own problems before diving in taking our money and doing sweet FA to actually make a dent in problems of other countries.
Obviously there are things such as child trafikking etc that are global issues and need a combined effort to make any kind of breakthrough.
Problems such as poverty etc though, although I understand the need to help and situations are desperate, I think we should sort our own countries poverty out first. How can we be expected to donate to charities when we have our own people / children starving on the streets, living on the streets, being abused etc?
I do do my bit for charity, especially during times of natural disasters but I just think that similar efforts should be made to make us aware of our countrys crisis'.
You're right, we'll never in a million years make enough of a difference but that's because we don't see one problem through to the end before reaching to solve the next - the world just ends up with heaps of unresolved issues.

With all due respect to the rest of your post, I do NOT see the other problems being reported every hour on the hour, nor do I see them take up the first five pages of my morning paper day after day. All I ask is for some perspective, rather than the media circus over one child.

porshiepoo
16-May-07, 12:45
With all due respect to the rest of your post, I do NOT see the other problems being reported every hour on the hour, nor do I see them take up the first five pages of my morning paper day after day. All I ask is for some perspective, rather than the media circus over one child.

I get what you're saying but like I said earlier doesn't something like this need hot media coverage for a few weeks????
Coverage will no doubt die down as time goes on but I think we have to respect the fact that now is the most important time, while everything is still fresh, to build a picture of what has happened?
Maybe there should be less coverage of speculation etc but personally if it were my child I'd be blessing it and I think maybe you would be too.

Other worldly issues don't get as much coverage because unfortunately they are worldwide daily issues.
What more do you think could be done to help those matters? We already have money taken from us left right and centre.

It also has to be said that had I won the lottery last week I too would be offering a huge reward for the capture of whoever did this to Maddy. Would I offer a huge amount to international aid though? No! I think I'd be more inclined to donate goods rather than money and even then this countrys poor people, homeless people, abused people, animals etc etc would come before international aid.

What in your mind counts as perspective on this matter? Should we allow 1 column a day? Front page? 3rd page? And would you feel the same if it were your child??

:) Sorry, I feel I had to put a smilie as I didn't want anyone to take this post as confrontational - it's not! See - happy smilie.

BRIE
16-May-07, 12:51
my heart does go out to maddys family but i do agree that the parents did act very irresponsibly!
I would never leave my children alone in an apartment in a strange place neither here or abroad & my eldest child is 15!
these parents obviously made a habit of leaving these children alone at night & whoever took maddy must of known this.
I cannot understand why they preferred to leave there children alone rather than with the hotel babysitting service.The children could of woke at any time,there could of been a fire, practically anything could of happened! & the worst did!
they could of taken a baby monitor at least they could of heard the children.
I do hope she is found safe & im sure the family would never leave there children again.

NickInTheNorth
16-May-07, 12:55
how about reporting news about this story. Rather than speculation? I don't waste money on what pass for newspapers any more but if I did I can guarantee that the vast majority of what has been written will be opinion, or speculation, or spin, or innuendo, or rumour. There will be very little fact. There will be very little "news".

The same applies to broadcast media. How many interviews with their own correspondents do we need to see?

Keep on reporting the same essential facts.

e.g. a young girl has been disappeared from her holiday apartment. Give the when the where, the photo etc

If there are other facts report them too.

But stop the stupidity!

porshiepoo
16-May-07, 13:02
Lets just hope that if Maddy is found safe and well that her mother is still here to pick up the pieces!
Having just seen a recent photo of her I think there should be serious concern for her health. I can well imagine that this trauma has rendered her appetite kaput but she is looking scarily gaunt. She seems to be wasting away before our eyes. :(

scotsboy
16-May-07, 15:03
The point Scorrie raises is a very valid one. Of course there are many thousands of other children, abducted, trafficked and worse. The thing is that we have been given a face, in this case – a beautiful wee girl, we have been given details of her family and we can empathize with them. It is a horrific situation for any parent to find themselves in. Maybe, just maybe after this case a much greater profile will be given to the plight of all children who end up in these situations. We can but hope.

scorrie
16-May-07, 19:46
I get what you're saying but like I said earlier doesn't something like this need hot media coverage for a few weeks????
Coverage will no doubt die down as time goes on but I think we have to respect the fact that now is the most important time, while everything is still fresh, to build a picture of what has happened?
Maybe there should be less coverage of speculation etc but personally if it were my child I'd be blessing it and I think maybe you would be too.

Other worldly issues don't get as much coverage because unfortunately they are worldwide daily issues.
What more do you think could be done to help those matters? We already have money taken from us left right and centre.

It also has to be said that had I won the lottery last week I too would be offering a huge reward for the capture of whoever did this to Maddy. Would I offer a huge amount to international aid though? No! I think I'd be more inclined to donate goods rather than money and even then this countrys poor people, homeless people, abused people, animals etc etc would come before international aid.

What in your mind counts as perspective on this matter? Should we allow 1 column a day? Front page? 3rd page? And would you feel the same if it were your child??

:) Sorry, I feel I had to put a smilie as I didn't want anyone to take this post as confrontational - it's not! See - happy smilie.

Let's put it this way. If my child was missing, presumed abducted, how on earth could they squeeze the merest mention of it into the blanket coverage given over to Maddy? I cannot remember anything like it for any previous child and if we are going to bring senior politicians in to help in this case, then how do we avoid granting the same level of support to any other cases in the future?

I think that Maddy's case should have made the news and then been left for meaningful developments. It just seems wrong that we should be presented with a scenario that gives the impression that this girl is the only missing child in the world.

As far as charities go, I believe in trying to support those with the most urgent and serious needs. Very often they only require very basic help. Of course, politics interferes with the simple "x + y = z" equation that could provide a solution and numerous other variables are brought in to create a conundrum that even Stephen Hawking's head would be nippin at the thought of.

You certainly have to worry about the priorities of our own Government, when you recall a motion being tabled in the House of Commons to remember celebrity Chef Rick Stein's dog, who died earlier this year!!

It's a funny old world we live in, I am simply commenting on that fact, rather than trying to be superior in any way. We are thankfully free to make of life what we wish.

I hope as much as anyone that Maddy is found safe and well but I fear the worst.

Spring Flower
16-May-07, 20:19
i was just wondering if anyone ever heard if the child at the petrol station was madeleine? it is just that there was a blond woman with a girl matching madeleine's description seen with 2 men - and now murat is 'suspect' and two witnesses are blond woman and another man.

just wondered if i missed this piece of news - surely if it had been the 3 above they would have been arrested - is this too much of a coincidence?

mareng
16-May-07, 23:53
looks like this thread is developing into a kind of "top trumps" of atrocities, much like happens whenever someone mentions Remembrance Sunday or favourite charities.

"my charity is more worthy than yours!"

The stories of mass abduction, prostitution of children and teenagers are heartbreaking and there should of course - be more resources to stopping it, but how can anyone criticise the concentrated media coverage (apart from the sincerity of the TV channels) - it may just be the thing that returns this particular child to her parents.

JAWS
17-May-07, 06:51
A set of circumstances - I will try to be as dispassionate as possible.

A young feckless, single girl moves into Caithness with three young children by different fathers.
She knows nobody so when some friends from her previous area come to visit she goes out with them during the evening. (It doesn't matter where, sightseeing, meal, drinks, partying, dance, place of Worship, pick your own according to your wishes)
When she gets home there has been a bit of a fire and one of the children is badly injured and scarred for life.
When she is questioned by the Police she says she left the children because she didn't know who she could trust to look after them but she popped back every half hour or so to check on them.

Any observations on her actions? Would anybody go round and sympathise with her?
Would people be saying nice things about her or would it be the "scandal of the County"?

scotsboy
17-May-07, 08:13
Surely there is a bit of a contradiction between her being "feckless" and being able to produce 3 children.........or is that just your paradigm of single parents Jaws.

In the bid to claim the moral high ground Jaws Auntie grows testicles and becomes his Uncle.

NickInTheNorth
17-May-07, 08:18
Meaning of feckless
1. Lacking purpose or vitality; feeble or ineffective.
2. Careless and irresponsible.

so where is the problem with what JAWS asks?

Or did you just think it was better to not answer the point being made?

scotsboy
17-May-07, 08:24
I'll use your definition - not sure where it came from as you never included a reference and it differs slightly from the Concise Oxford Dictionary I have lying on the desk - but we will go with Jaws:

Lacking purpose - the production of children does not seem to lack purpose
Feeble - I am sure any mother who has produced three children could not be considered feeble
Ineffective - well again, 3 children, hardly ineffetive

The point being made is what? Single mothers are feckless? Jaws thinks single mothers are irresponsible? What is the point?

NickInTheNorth
17-May-07, 08:29
The point is you don't want to answer a very simple question because it totally flies in the face of the "point" you have tried to make a various times in this topic and you know it!

scotsboy
17-May-07, 08:32
No the point is that Jaws and your good self are trying to justify the moral high ground you have taken in blaming the abduction of the wee lassie on the actions of her parents - without being fully aware of all the facts.

As I have consistently said I will reserve judgement till I know ALL the facts. Your have made up your mind - why does it pain you so much that someone else needs more information to do so.

NickInTheNorth
17-May-07, 08:40
The only "facts" suggested in JAWS post, and the only facts on which I base any judgement I have made are the ones on which there is no disagreement.

Parents went out leaving 3 children under 4 at home unsupervised.

Is that right or wrong?

As for the moral high ground, it is you who is desperately scrambling to reach it and failing miserably...

scotsboy
17-May-07, 08:42
I thought they were in a holiday apartment...not at home......but then you are the guy with all the facts.

As for me struggling, yes well I struggle most of the time I ain't perfect.

JAWS
17-May-07, 09:01
Surely there is a bit of a contradiction between her being "feckless" and being able to produce 3 children.........or is that just your paradigm of single parents Jaws.

In the bid to claim the moral high ground Jaws Auntie grows testicles and becomes his Uncle.I think that answers the point admirably.
Did I say she was a single parent? OK, her husband is away working and unable to move to Caithness with her, if that makes you feel it is more acceptable. That is the very reason I did not specify where she was when she was out.
All I did was localise the situation and change the background of the parent. The point is that the children were left for similar periods and came to some harm. The exact details of why that was is not relevant.

If there is any Moral High Ground being taken it is by condemning those who do not feel that they should be sympathetic to the parents. The only thing I am asking people to do is to look at things in a different way. At the end of the day I don't care you does or does not feel sympathy, that is their business, but some do seem to think that others are uncaring because they don't.

And just to clarify your implication that I have a particular attitude towards single parents,
1. I was the child of a single parent from the age of 10.
2. I myself have been a single parent of two children.
3. My ex-wife was a single parent when I married her.

I suggest you should have a rethink about what you have implied about my views on single parents which is nothing more than an attempt to cause people to be distracted from the question I posed.
It was a nice try, but I’m afraid you’re aim was very wide of it’s intended target. Perhaps that was as a result of "jumping to conclusions without knowing the full facts" that caused the misconception.

JAWS
17-May-07, 09:20
No the point is that Jaws and your good self are trying to justify the moral high ground you have taken in blaming the abduction of the wee lassie on the actions of her parents - without being fully aware of all the facts.

As I have consistently said I will reserve judgement till I know ALL the facts. Your have made up your mind - why does it pain you so much that someone else needs more information to do so.I have not "blamed" the parents and I have just as much information as anybody else on the subject. All I have said is that from the information any of us have I am not currently extending my sympathy to the parents.
Other are perfectly entitled so to do, all I have done so stated my reasons why I personally don't.
If that is taking the Moral High Ground, which I assume is intended as some sort of denigration of me, then so be it, I don't care.

Yes, the person responsible is the person who carried out the abduction and I have no dispute with that at all.

When I get more information, should I feel at that point I should feel sympathy for the parents then I will. You are not the only one who is happy to wait for more information in order to make a final decision.
Why, therefore, should what I feel, without the full facts, be wrong when you consider yours and others to be right whilst only having the same information?
I am happy for you to wait for the full facts, please extend the same courtesy to me.

As for waiting to the "full facts", I refer to my previous post if you consider that to be my error alone.

None of this answers the situation I described earlier which you have carefully avoided.
What would the attitude of people be from those circumstances? Would local people be sympathetic or not? It’s not a very complicated question, or is it?

squidge
17-May-07, 09:32
I think there are no doubts that leaving your children is wrong - It was a mistake - to continue to drive that point home is becoming meaningless - there are varying degrees of "wrongness" and unfortunately it depends on the outcome and it depends on the actions - somehow leaving your children in an apartment that you can see to have a quiet dinner across the road doesnt seem as bad as leaving your children at home whilst you go out in town and partyyyyyyyyy and get drunk. I dont think its as much about the "status" of the parent but the action itself.

Hindsight is an exact science and I am sure maddie's parents know they were wrong and stupid but they are paying a TERRIBLE price and they are not responsible for the abduction of their child. What they ARE responsible for is a stupid and ill judged action without properly calculating the risks involved. They are guilty of making a mistake.

scotsboy
17-May-07, 09:36
I have not stated that I was sympathetic towards the parents or not.

It was your words which were used to describe the single parent – I had no hand in that, whatever your past history/experience of single parents is, it was you who chose the words.

The point I am trying to make – obviously badly, is that in making a decision about a child’s safety a parent (or parents) draws upon many different facts. You have chosen to say (or imply) that under no circumstances should a child be left unattended. I say that there will have been many cases/instances where ALL parents have left a child unattended.

I would like to know the statistics for children who have come to harm whilst in the direct care of their parents as opposed to those who were not in the direct care……..I wonder which would be the most significant.

angela5
17-May-07, 09:42
No-one is saying it was a smart thing to do. We all know it wasn't.
The McCanns have to live with the consequences of what they did,and the last thing they need is finger-pointing and tut-tutting.
We have all been guilty to some extent of leaving our children without our watchful eye over them.
No matter what the outcome and we all pray Maddie is returned safe and well.
What the parents are going through is torture enough without asking why they did what they did.
It's a question the McCanns will never stop asking themselves.

JAWS
17-May-07, 10:17
Scotsboy, I described a single situation and one particular single girl, you were the one who tried to divert attention from the question raised by trying to indicate That I held that opinion of all single mothers. There was nothing in the point I raised which gave any indication that I had any such attitude, that was simply in your own mind.

The question I raised was that if a situation arose locally where a mother, I used single to give a reason for not leaving a husband/boyfriend with the child, left her young children unattended for some period of time and some serious harm came to one them as a result, what would the reaction to her be locally?

That seems to be a simple question for which you appear to be avoiding like the very plague. Sometimes no answer is an answer and often a far clearer answer than one which is, in fact, given.

Once again you try to distract people from that question by asking about statistics for children hurt when attended or otherwise. That is not relevant at all to the situation I described and is just another evasion tactic?

Your point would appear to be, “There but for the Grace of God goes any parent!” Yes, that is a probability but that makes no difference to my not feeling sympathy for the parents.

The indications have been that to not feel sympathy for the parents is in some way uncaring, callous and heartless.
Were the circumstances, and I will include the explanation that those circumstances are as far as we are aware, different then my attitude would probably be different.
As things stand and under the details we have been given my attitude is that I personally, and that is no reflection on how others may feel or their reasons, do not feel sympathy. That does not mean I am not mindful of the situation the little girl is in or the distress her small sisters must be going through.
Should I ever be given reason to feel sympathy for the parents then I will do so, but not until then.

There is no moral high ground here, just a tragedy involving a small child, and to indicate that anybody is adopting that position as a debating tactic I can only describe as distasteful in the extreme and totally unwarranted.

Penelope Pitstop
17-May-07, 10:29
I think you have clarified your feelings thoroughly here Jaws.

I cannot feel anything but sympathy for the parents.....as a parent I put myself in their shoes as to the pain they must be going through.

I'm not perfect...I've made mistakes......sure I will make plenty more yet.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just say what I feel.

scotsboy
17-May-07, 10:33
The tragedy involving the child also has nothing to do with the question you posed - but I will indulge you.

I think in the instance you presented, the feckless single mother (who now has a partner who does not live in the area) had made a bad decision in leaving her children alone whilst going out with her friends from the south.

Now, how would she be portrayed on Caithness.org.......well she would be pilloried by you and Nick, and I would reserve judgement till I knew all the facts.

changilass
17-May-07, 10:40
Scotsboy, you forgot to add that the kids would be taken into emergency foster care whilst the mother was given a chance to sort out her priorities.


No parent can keep an eye on their child 24/7, I accept that, and should something happen whilst you turn your back for a minute, that is a tragedy, leaving kids on their own for half an hour or more is an accident waiting to happen, they are 2 totally different circumstances and should be dealt with as such.

scotsboy
17-May-07, 10:52
Scotsboy, you forgot to add that the kids would be taken into emergency foster care whilst the mother was given a chance to sort out her priorities.


No parent can keep an eye on their child 24/7, I accept that, and should something happen whilst you turn your back for a minute, that is a tragedy, leaving kids on their own for half an hour or more is an accident waiting to happen, they are 2 totally different circumstances and should be dealt with as such.

Isn't an accident (following taken from Concise Oxford Dictionary):
an event that is without apparent cause or unexpected
an unforseen course of events
an unintentional act, chance, misfortune
unlucky event, especially once causing injury or damage

In which case I would agree with you, but it would be no diffeent if they were left for 2 minutes (according to your definition) would it? I think that others would disagree with the accident waiting to happen scenario and are infering culpability.

NickInTheNorth
17-May-07, 10:58
Whilst I have no sympathy for the McCann's, I do empathise with them. To have "lost" a child in any circumstances must be heart rending. I truly can imagine those feelings.

However this does not mean that one must condone what they did.

Society far too often seems to condone errant behaviour because of a tragic outcome.

So many times since Madeleine went missing I have heard that the McCann's "made a mistake".

Yes, they did. They deliberately left Madeleine and her brother and sister "home alone" whilst they absented themselves from the premises. From what we hear in the media from friends and relatives this was considered perfectly normal and proper behaviour.

Try understanding what a mistake is. Look it up in a dictionary. The clearest meaning to apply to mistake in this situation is "an incorrect idea or opinion".

So why are so many people that are happy to justify the actions of the McCann's on the dubious grounds that they "made a mistake" also happy to castigate people that say that the decision to leave the children at home was wrong!

changilass
17-May-07, 10:59
I am sure you know exactly what I was refering to when I said 'an accident waiting to happen', it is a phrase not a single word definition as you have chosen to take it. We can all twist others words to fit our own purposes, but I am sure you knew exactly what I meant [disgust]

Deliberately leaving a child unattended for half an hour is totally different from turning your back for a minute.

NickInTheNorth
17-May-07, 11:03
Isn't an accident (following taken from Concise Oxford Dictionary):
an event that is without apparent cause or unexpected
an unforseen course of events
an unintentional act, chance, misfortune
unlucky event, especially once causing injury or damage

In which case I would agree with you, but it would be no diffeent if they were left for 2 minutes (according to your definition) would it? I think that others would disagree with the accident waiting to happen scenario and are infering culpability.
I think it is entirely foreseeable that leaving 3 young children unsupervised in a building for extended periods of time has the potential to lead to some kind of problem. And thus not an accident.

That the actual event that transpired is outwith the normal range of events that we may expect does not make it a right idea.

scotsboy
17-May-07, 11:05
I have yet to see anyone justify the actions of the McCanns.

scotsboy
17-May-07, 11:07
I am sure you know exactly what I was refering to when I said 'an accident waiting to happen', it is a phrase not a single word definition as you have chosen to take it. We can all twist others words to fit our own purposes, but I am sure you knew exactly what I meant [disgust]

Deliberately leaving a child unattended for half an hour is totally different from turning your back for a minute.

Not if an "accident" occurs it isn't.

golach
17-May-07, 11:10
There are definately a difference of opinions on this thread, Maternal V Paternal, I do not feel able to judge one way or the other as I have never been in that position, but if I was pushed into a corner I would side with the paternals. In the Med', taking your children into resturants at any time is the norm, my children would have been at my side if it was me.

JAWS
17-May-07, 11:10
The tragedy involving the child also has nothing to do with the question you posed - but I will indulge you.

I think in the instance you presented, the feckless single mother (who now has a partner who does not live in the area) had made a bad decision in leaving her children alone whilst going out with her friends from the south.

Now, how would she be portrayed on Caithness.org.......well she would be pilloried by you and Nick, and I would reserve judgement till I knew all the facts.
I gave you the facts, the whole facts, and if you believe that the reaction would be as you describe then you have far more faith in people than I have.

And when did I "pillory" the parents? I have just said I personally do not feel sympathy towards them. If that is pillorying them then, once again, you read far more into the facts I have written about my attitude than is actually there, but then again, that’s not the first time this morning.

Angela
17-May-07, 11:13
Nick, I do feel you've made your point several times now, but you are not prepared to accept that other people are entitled to a different opinion.

I think that what the McCanns did was wrong - therefore it was an "incorrect idea" as you describe it -therefore it was a mistake!

You are determined to insist that it is impossible for it to be both a wrong decision AND a mistake. I think it was both.

I am not "happy to justify" their actions, in fact I don't even try to justify their actions.

However I don't know them, and I don't know the full facts, any more than anyone else, and I really don't see that I have the right to pass judgement on them.

As a mother and grandmother, I do know that if I had made a serious error of judgement, which gave an opportunity to someone to harm my children or my grandchild, I would be condemning myself every waking moment. It would only add to what must be every parent's worst nightmare. Because of that, I do feel sympathy for the parents, insofar as anyone can feel sympathy for people they don't actually know in real life.

I for one have read all your posts, and taken on board what you have to say. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

Angela
17-May-07, 11:18
There are definately a difference of opinions on this thread, Maternal V Paternal, I do not feel able to judge one way or the other as I have never been in that position, but if I was pushed into a corner I would side with the paternals. In the Med', taking your children into resturants at any time is the norm, my children would have been at my side if it was me.

Sorry, golach, you've lost me here ...:eek: ...where do you see "Maternal v Paternal"?

I don't understand! :confused

NickInTheNorth
17-May-07, 11:22
If you have read them all you will have noticed that I have used the word mistake to comment on their actions :)

A mistake is a wrong idea. The two cannot be split apart.

I am not offering my opinion solely on the McCann's. I believe it is wrong for anyone to leave small children alone and unsupervised in any building at any time whilst absenting themselves from the property. I am not passing judgement on them. I am passing judgement on the action of anyone. They happen to fall into the definition.

And just as a reminder of the question I posed way back:


Is it right to leave a child of not quite four years old outwith adult supervision. For however long or short a period of time?

My own thoughts are that in principal no it is not. At that age they are too young to be responsible for themselves.

golach
17-May-07, 11:31
Sorry, golach, you've lost me here ...:eek: ...where do you see "Maternal v Paternal"?

I don't understand! :confused
Angela , just an obsevation, more sympathy from the female .Orgers than the male .Orgers IMO

scotsboy
17-May-07, 11:32
I gave you the facts, the whole facts, and if you believe that the reaction would be as you describe then you have far more faith in people than I have.

And when did I "pillory" the parents? I have just said I personally do not feel sympathy towards them. If that is pillorying them then, once again, you read far more into the facts I have written about my attitude than is actually there, but then again, that’s not the first time this morning.

Nothing wrong with a bit of faith Jaws;)

scotsboy
17-May-07, 11:34
Angela , just an obsevation, more sympathy from the female .Orgers than the male .Orgers IMO

Are you having a go at my sexuality Golach;) :)

Angela
17-May-07, 11:41
Angela , just an obsevation, more sympathy from the female .Orgers than the male .Orgers IMO

Perhaps so, I hadn't counted :confused ...no poll on this thread!

...but, then while I totally agree with you that I wouldn't have left (in fact never did leave) my kids alone in a similar situation and I do think it was a mistaken thing to do so far as I can gather, that doesn't preclude my being sympathetic towards the parents...so far as I can be, given that I don't actually know them. I do think knowing what a dreadful mistake they've made must make it so much worse for them.

squidge
17-May-07, 11:54
I dont see much justification of the actions the McCanns did - it was a bad decision, a mistake, a stupid thing to do but we ALL do them. We ALL have moments of madness and nick you are deluding yourself if you beleive that as your little ones grow up you wont do that. And that is why I cant and wont condemn them for their actions.

I made one this last weekend with my 18 year old. Following a really stressful week with him where he refused to dry the pots wash up or pull his weight in any way I told him i was not taking him anywhere or doing anything for him until he mended his ways. On monday night he phoned and asked me to pick him up off the train when he got back into Inverness from going to Beauly. He had been told he had to do his washing and sort stuff out at home so i told him No He would have to get his own way home on the Bus or walk. He got back into Inverness and ended up going for a few drinks with his pal and ended up in a situation where he could have lost his life. And im not being dramatic when i say that. The police are searching for a man in connection with the incident but if i hadnt been so bloody minded then he and his friend wouldnt have had to go through the frankly terrifying ordeal they had to go through.

I dont justify the McCanns other than to say that they are paying a terrible price for a lapse in judgement - an error - a mistake - a stupid thing to do - whatever you think about it they dont deserve to lose their little girl like that and they arent repsonsible for the sick person that has done this. they beleived their children were safe or they wouldnt have left them i am sure. That it was naive and stupid is now there for all the world to see.

Max
17-May-07, 20:51
[QUOTE=NickInTheNorth;222795]Having answered that, I would just like to ask a straight forward question.

Is it right to leave a child of not quite four years old outwith adult supervision. For however long or short a period of time?

I really don't believe anyone is going to answer yes to that! I am quite sure everyone is in agreement that it was a mistake and one the parents are paying dearly for. I think many of us are just trying to say nobody is perfect, we are all human and although the majority of us wouldn't do that we may make equally poor decisions at some time in our lives. Like Squidges example -can we truly say we will never make a bad decision? Maybe not at pre- school age but perhaps at post-school age?