View Full Version : Over/under qualified?
cuddlepop
10-May-07, 15:48
Do you think employers put too much enphasis on a requirement to have a degree for "management" position?
It would appear that experience accounts for next to nothing unless you have the degree to back it up.It also looks like you can have too much experience to carry out the job in question and employers question your motive for applying:confused
Loyalty counts for nothing too.:mad:
Definitely. A colleague of my wife applied for a "manager" position but because she did not have a degree she was told she would not be considered. She had every other qualification under the sun and had full support of her colleagues to apply for the post but 'management' said no....
So even experience may not count.
cuddlepop
10-May-07, 16:58
This is what we're finding and its so unfair.You could be doing a job perfectly well for the past twenty years and have worked your way up from the bottom but unless you have that wee bit of paper employers dont want to know.
So many managenent posts are filled with degree graduates who dont know what to do when a non text book senario appears and rely on the experienced staff to prevent a crisis;then take the credit for inituative:mad:
well i went for a managers job thats all i know really and becouse i was out of work for soo long they said i couldnt go for it i have been out of work for 3 years with looking after the kids but want to go back now my minds not gone just becouse i had kids :D
cuddlepop
10-May-07, 18:15
well i went for a managers job thats all i know really and becouse i was out of work for soo long they said i couldnt go for it i have been out of work for 3 years with looking after the kids but want to go back now my minds not gone just becouse i had kids :D
I've come across this argument too.Just because I haven't used my qualifications I obtained at college doesn't mean I dont know how to.Its a wonderful job we do in staying at home to raise the kids.Its a disgrace its not valued more.
Itsteven do some voluntary management type work for a charity,that way you'll get back on the employment ladder:D
i know what your saying but i dont see y i have to do things like that to prove that my mind is still in place people keep telling me that i am good with my kids and other kids y dont i do childminding but as much as i love my kids and i know i am having more but i have this chance to go out and work full time i need to work for me and the kids :D
orkneylass
10-May-07, 20:04
My son has dropped out but may go back to finish his degree. I hope he will because it does not matter what its in or how low the pass, there are loads of jobs where you have to have a degree. I work in the public sector and we have to be seen as fair when selecting for jobs. People are matched against the job description, and each job has a list of esssential and desirable criteria. Above a certain grade, a degree is essential. I've had to refuse interview to candidates I knew would be great for a job, because they did not have a degree. My hands were tied!
i was turned down for a job for being over qualified!! I found this a joke as i just wanted a change of career to something less demanding.
cuddlepop
10-May-07, 20:52
i was turned down for a job for being over qualified!! I found this a joke as i just wanted a change of career to something less demanding.
Thats what I mean Brie,sometimes you can be in a position that makes you over qualified for a job and the employer gets the jitters thinking your only looking at a stop gap.
I've had an interview where on paper I was more qualified thamn the interviewer,talk about the shutters going up.:roll:
Orkneylass,public sector is really bad for this behaviour,selecting on degree only makes a mockery of very experienced,dedicated staff:mad:
Cuddlepop you have my simpathy.
These days people ring up to ask why they didn't get the job they were interviewed for or even why they were not on the short leet. If they had a degree and you appointed or interviewed someone without one then there can be a lot of explaining to do. And then of course if the interviewer has the same qualification and appoints someone without one then they are making some sort of statement about their own status.
It also becomes even more difficult and important to have solid justification for non selection when an applicant is disabled or if there is a gender or sexuality issue.
cuddlepop
10-May-07, 21:23
going through the most recent person specification and Mr Cp can fufill every essential quality, apart from the "degree" or professional industry standard qualification.:eek:
When he started at the bottom no one was bothered with qualifcations all that mattered is that you could do the job.Now all they want to know is that you can do the job on paper.Many an incompedent boss has been carried by their less qualified assistant and I dont see that trend changing.
I have 2 degrees and I am constantly passed over as far as promotion goes. I guess I'm just too good to be 'management'.
cuddlepop
11-May-07, 13:14
I have 2 degrees and I am constantly passed over as far as promotion goes. I guess I'm just too good to be 'management'.
Your just too clever Reggers;) their afraid you'll tell the Management how to "manage"
I have 2 degrees and I am constantly passed over as far as promotion goes. I guess I'm just too good to be 'management'.
Perhaps not the "right" degrees to tick their box, Rheghead [evil]
I've been in a similar situation, degree, post-grad diploma, plenty of experience in the job at management level....company taken over, venture capital put in place for company expansion.
It was then decided I didn't have the "right" qualifications, and didn't fit their new "profile"...and I was basically bullied and my life made intolerable until I just gave up and left [disgust] I wasn't the only one either!
This is quite interesting. I've had this debate about degrees with lots of people. I'm not very up to date with having one in relation to management positions but it would perhaps depend on the sector you work within. I know that not having one has never stopped me. Certainly there has been lots of employer surveys carried out where they complain that all those years studying don't really make you employable in terms of the soft skills or practical application. There is a drive on for more vocational degrees these days too. I don't think that 'any' degree makes the difference cause I know loads of people with media ones and psychology too who struggle to get into the areas they want.
cuddlepop
11-May-07, 17:27
In our experience the public sector are looking for degrees and not necessarily in a specific field.Their applications just state "educated to degree level"
Voluntary sector look for commitment to fund raise above all else.This really
means your fund raising to keep your job.:eek:
orkneylass
11-May-07, 17:37
Re: being passed over for promotion - management is a specialism in it's own right and it is not the case that the person with the highest qualification or longest experience is necessarily someone who will make a good manager. Good managers often don't even need a background in the area they come in to manage. It is a specific set of skills including how you handle people. Anyone who does not understand this is not suitable for promotion to management.
cuddlepop
11-May-07, 18:13
Re: being passed over for promotion - management is a specialism in it's own right and it is not the case that the person with the highest qualification or longest experience is necessarily someone who will make a good manager. Good managers often don't even need a background in the area they come in to manage. It is a specific set of skills including how you handle people. Anyone who does not understand this is not suitable for promotion to management.
Does that also apply to the senior managers who appoint managers that have
none of the above qualities and are only there because they ticked the right boxes.
Qualifications tend to be used as an excuse by employers, it is easier to tell someone that they are over/under-qualified than tell them the truth;)
cuddlepop
11-May-07, 18:24
Qualifications tend to be used as an excuse by employers, it is easier to tell someone that they are over/under-qualified than tell them the truth;)
Like there face doesn't fit;)
I would agree with management being a whole set of people skills in itself, the whole point of management is relationships.
On some adds it asks Educated to Degree level or Equivalent.
I've read research with emloyers and generally the ones who insist on these things probably won't be worth working for anyway unless it's specific things like medicine, law etc cause I'm sure there is a lot of knowledge requirement there, but as for management I don't think a degree is the be all and end all.
There is always the OU if you really want that degree job...;)
I would agree with management being a whole set of people skills in itself, the whole point of management is relationships.
On some adds it asks Educated to Degree level or Equivalent.
I've read research with emloyers and generally the ones who insist on these things probably won't be worth working for anyway unless it's specific things like medicine, law etc cause I'm sure there is a lot of knowledge requirement there, but as for management I don't think a degree is the be all and end all.Of course it's not! :roll:
Only someone who doesn't have that bit of paper would bother arguing about it. Quite funny really.
cuddlepop
12-May-07, 09:57
What does having a degree show an employer?
I think it shows them that you can carry out research and submit reports
You are fairly clever and dont require to be constantly told what to do(free thinking)
Capable of giving presentations on a subject.
Select and interview staff
Work within a budget,if thats been part of your degree training
There's more I'm sure but its early....
Most of the above can be carried out with experience or am I wrong?:confused
NickInTheNorth
12-May-07, 10:03
I would suggest that it doesn't really show anything of the sort, apart from possibly partially agreeing with your first point.
A degree basically shows you managed to get through whatever process was required on your particular degree course. I know of at least one person that managed a 1st in an engineering discipline without a single piece of written work!
A degree is a lazy employers means of sorting the wheat from the chaff. It means they don't actually need to think too much about the whole selection process.
You can always lie. Very very few employers ask for any proof of educational attainment ;)
But it is very naughty
cuddlepop
12-May-07, 10:07
I beginning to think that these said employers how insist on a degree and worth working for and dont deserve Mr Cp "Experience"
Think we're looking at self employed consultancy work.:D
He's been his own boss for so long he'd find it difficult to say nothing when he knows mistakes are being made.:eek:
Actually having a degree is very important. Would you mind going to a Doctor who has just picked up medicine by experience?:roll:
NickInTheNorth
12-May-07, 12:43
I would agree that for some technical jobs, such as a doctor, or a science discipline, or such like yes, it is needed, it is how the basic skills required tend to be learned.
But for many other less technically demanding jobs where the learning really is done on the job, why is a degree required to be a manager.
If a degree is required for the basic job, then a it follows that a degree is probably needed for a related management function.
cuddlepop
12-May-07, 15:41
My argument is that you seem to require a degree for either management or middle management posts within local authority posts.
Cleaning @Janitorial Co ordinator. for east renfrewshiree council requires you to have a degree in a facilities management profession.
Mr Cp was a facilities manager who worked his way up from the bottom who was perfectly capable of doing his job but could no longer work for a shower of you no whats.:mad:
Employers are devaluing the true worth of a degree but then again so are uni'S when a pass can be rated as low as 30%of a paper:eek:
Bobinovich
12-May-07, 16:51
Many customers assume that I must have a degree in IT to be able to solve their problems but I don't. Computing is one of those subjects where you definately pick up more knowledge on the job than you could from any text books (which would often be out of date the moment they were printed!).
In the same vein, when I first started my business, I wore a shirt and tie as it helped project the image of being a 'businessman'. However I found that it put many of the potential private customers off as they expected my rates to be much higher!
I realised after a while that a shirt and tie did not make me perform my job any better, so changed to a more comfortable T-shirt & jumper (often only a T-shirt during the summer) and now have a faster growing client-base of private customers, as well as increasing business customers.
At the end of the day, they don't care so long as you can do the job and bring it in at a reasonable cost for them.
I suggest Mr CP keep looking at self-employment!
Actually having a degree is very important. Would you mind going to a Doctor who has just picked up medicine by experience?:roll:
Having a degree may be very important for certain jobs, but for others it is just not required. Tell me what do they call a Doctor who finished bottom of his class......
orkneylass
12-May-07, 17:55
Some of the people I met at Uni studying medecine were truly scary - especially the one who got chucked off the course because he was on smack. Guess what course they let him transfer to? Yep - pharmacy!!!!!
j4bberw0ck
12-May-07, 20:41
Employers are devaluing the true worth of a degree but then again so are uni'S when a pass can be rated as low as 30%of a paper:eek:
I'd have to disagree. The Government devalued the worth of a degree when they decided that everyone had to be encouraged to go into tertiary education. They changed the funding for universities and so encouraged universities to sign up as many people as they could; that meant offering a wider range of courses and inevitably, given some of the subjects, a reduction in the academic content. Degree in the History of Rock Music, anyone? Golf Course Management? B.A, 3rd Class, in Applied Makeup, anyone? (OK, with the last one, I'm joking)
So given that getting a degree has never been easier (as it looks from where I sit) (oh and by the way, I don't have one either ;) ) and never has there been a higher proportion of people with degrees both useful and worthless, of course employers say they want a degree-qialified applicant. They choose to believe that that way, they're limiting their selection to to the brightest. No degree, no interview. A cop-put, sure, but that's just the way it is.
Similar in some respects to what they used to say about IT Managers in the 80's who were buying IT equipment: "No one ever got fired for buying IBM" - personnel managers and HR types won't ever get hassle for hiring a graduate who didn't work out, but they'll have some explaining to do if they hire a non-graduate who doesn't work out.
Blame the government - this one and the one before it. The comprehensive came about because suddenly you couldn't say to a kid any more "Sorry, you didn't make it to grammar, you're going to Secondary Modern". Result? A load of kids who'd have benefited from Tech Drawing, woodwork, metalwork and more vocational subjects suddenly got to sit in classrooms all day, bored, uninterested and eventually, disruptive. The quality of education across the board fell.
The proof of the oversupply of graduates is that the price of them is falling - it used to be that as a graduate, you'd earn significantly more than a non-graduate. Now there as are so many of them, they don't earn any more than non-graduates (in non-qualification-related roles). They just have a massive debt that'll keep them off the housing ladder for a few more years. Who's the mug? The grad? Or the kid that went into work and earned money, acquired a skill, and didn't get a debt burden?
Tell me what do they call a Doctor who finished bottom of his class......
Probably 'Doctor' but in the VSO.
cuddlepop
13-May-07, 09:55
Someone I know is doing a Geography degree at Strathclyde uni and has to only get 30% in the paper (think it was physcology) for it to be recognised as a pass:eek:
Even when i tried on line degree learning 40% was a pass,how is that not devaluing the worth of a degree.?
crashbandicoot1979
13-May-07, 21:46
I see both sides of this arguement. I totally agree that experience counts for a lot and its terrible when people are overlooked just because they don't have a degree. But on the other hand I've struggled to get a decent job with my degree because I lack experience, but I can't gain experience without a job so its catch 22! I have an OK job now but I don't require a degree to do it and I feel as if I'm stuck. But then there have also been instances where I've been classed as overqualified, so I can't win!
[quote=Bobinovich;222571]Many customers assume that I must have a degree in IT to be able to solve their problems but I don't. Computing is one of those subjects where you definately pick up more knowledge on the job than you could from any text books (which would often be out of date the moment they were printed!).
My point exactly! Your a master at what you do anyway!
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