View Full Version : 'Hoodies' Demo in Inverness - stop scapegoating the kids
frank ward
30-May-05, 11:01
Forwarded for your information
Stand up to Blair's phoney "Respect" Agenda - Stop the criminalisation of young people
Demo Sat 4th June, 2pm, outside Eastgate Centre, Inverness, Marks and Spencers entrance.
Many people will have noted Blair's attempts to focus on the agenda of "respect" in the wake of being rejected by 78% of the UK electorate. This is partially an atempt to woo back Tory voters who returned to their natural fold on May 5th, but also crucially, an attempt to divide the working class and distract attention from the attacks on pensions and the ever greater use of the private sector in the NHS and other public services.
Blair, disgustringly, returns to an old favourite theme of the British establishment when it wants to turn attention away from real issues - the moral "folk" panic. In the sixties it was mods and rockers, in the seventies punks, in the eighties "New Age Travellers", and in the early nineties, raves were attacked by the then Tory government using the Criminal Justice Bill - a bill which saw the predecessor of the SSP , Scottish Militant Labour, together with others, take to the streets in illegal demos across Scotland's cities (beginning in Inverness) which turned that discriminatory Tory law into a "dead letter."
Blair has latched onto the banning by an English shopping centre of young people wearing "hoodies" and caps. Apparently our youth should be good enough to oblige retailers by buying this gear, at enormously inflated prices, but they're not good enough to walk the same shopping centres wearing it! What young people choose to wear now marks them out as potential hoodlums or criminals.
The Eastgate Shopping Centre in Inverness, on the advice of Northern Constabulary, is the first in Scotland to go down this road - with what it calls a "Hats Off" policy. If the CCTV can't see your face you are a potential shoplifter and can be asked to leave. The youth of the Highlands are urged to keep buying inflated-price "chav" style gear - just don't wear it near our shops!
The SSY and SSP have no time for loutish, threatening or anti-social behaviour, but the real solutions to these problems where they exist lie in offering a real future to our young people - not exploiting them as workers, ripping them off as consumers, or scapegoating them "en bloc" for society's ills.
Highlands SSY are saying Bollocks to this nasty, discriminatory and hypocritical agenda. They are calling on citizens of all ages to join the "Robin Hoodies" at a protest this Saturday outside Marks and Sparks, Eastgate, Inverness at 2pm for a peaceful, non-violent expression of civil liberty and real "respect". I urge you to join them. BRING A HAT, COSTUME, MASK or HOOD as well as your own placard and poster and or message. All ages welcome.
Bring the message home to the Eastgate management and Blairite politicians everywhere
*
OUR YOUNG PEOPLE WILL NOT BE TURNED INTO SCAPEGOATS
*
YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE, NOT WHAT YOU WEAR
*
REAL JOBS AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. NO TO A LIFETIME OF EDUCATION AND CONSUMER DEBT.
Steve Arnott. Highlands and Islands Regional Organiser, Scottish Socialist Party.
I think that's a marvellous idea. If I was anywhere near Inverness, I'd be going. I'd even buy a hoodie (though I think I'm a little old to get away with it).
I don't quite get society's desire to treat all teenagers as devil's spawn. Is it really that hard to remember what life was like at that age?
doreenhedgehog
30-May-05, 12:33
I know what you are saying, but is it too much to ask for these people to have their hoods down when they are inside? They do tend to look dodgy, whether they are or not.
I also fully understand why old people feel intimidated walking down the street past groups of chavs with hoods up over their faces.
I must be getting old :D
Caledonia
30-May-05, 12:34
You are requested to remove motorcycle helmets when going into banks, etc.
I see no problem with making the connection between intent to commit crime and the wearing of a hood indoors or in weather which would suggest it was not a practical need.
When I lived in Manchester I was parking my car one night. As I passed a group of teens I had passed already once I noticed they had all put their hoods up. I parked up, and as I was opening my car door I noticed one of them looking round the corner, so I drove back round the block, and lo and behold they were all crammed up against the corner, hoods up, ready on the attack.
Anyone who has lived in the big city will be familiar with this 'attack' mode.
You cannot outlaw the wearing of hoods per se, but I see no reason at all why shopping centres and similar establishments should allow the wearing of hoods on their premises.
;)
luskentyre
30-May-05, 13:12
What utter bollocks. There are two very good reasons for shopping centres discouraging the wearing of hoods and baseball caps.
1) Like it or not, some people find it intimidating.
2) CCTV cameras are unable to identify people who have their faces deliberately hidden. Remember that the next time someone is mugged or a child gets abducted.
It's not the government and shopping centers who are "criminalising" young people - they're doing it perfectly well themselves.
Haven't you lot got anything important to do? Who are the Highland SSY anyway?!
There are two very good reasons for shopping centres discouraging the wearing of hoods and baseball caps.
1) Like it or not, some people find it intimidating.
2) CCTV cameras are unable to identify people who have their faces deliberately hidden. Remember that the next time someone is mugged or a child gets abducted.
It's not the government and shopping centers who are "criminalising" young people - they're doing it perfectly well themselves.
I with you all the way on this issue luskentyre, anyone who lives in a city will agree the this "chav" style is there to intimidate.
We see this in Edinburgh every day, and I dont see the SSP doing anything about it, Good on you Tony Blair, this is one of your more realistic ideas.
Im not too bothered by shopping centres saying you muct have your hood down uits their shopping centre and they can do what they want. However i do think Drutt is right we do demonise our young peoople and that should stop - they cant learn respect if they never receive it
The Pepsi Challenge
30-May-05, 16:16
Does that mean Santa Claus will be getting banged up, too. He’s got the most recognisable hoodie going. Anyway, here’s some words to feast on from a few colleagues.
http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=515832005
http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=533142005
http://news.scotsman.com/archive.cfm?id=527112005
However i do think Drutt is right we do demonise our young peoople and that should stop.
I have got to disagree with you there to a certain degree. It is the responsible public spirited adults and the have-a-go plucky pensioners that are the ones that have been demonised in society as the child abusers and the old interfering busybody cranks.
An adult can't even give one of these hoodies a well deserved clip around the ear without landing himself in court. We should take heed of our older generation's values a bit more before these hoodies breakdown the fabric of our society for good. Lets face it, in the olden days, there was more respect for our elders, so something needs to change. I know I will tickle the wrath of the usual caithness.org sappy guardians of political correctness, but I think I share the views of the majority.
The Pepsi Challenge
30-May-05, 17:42
I know what you are saying, but is it too much to ask for these people to have their hoods down when they are inside? They do tend to look dodgy, whether they are or not.
I also fully understand why old people feel intimidated walking down the street past groups of chavs with hoods up over their faces.
I must be getting old :D
No, just prejudiced.
I also fully understand why old people feel intimidated walking down the street past groups of chavs with hoods up over their faces.
There are very few groups of people who wear hoods/masks that don't want to look intimidating. Those that do can include robbers, the IRA, KKK, Black September, islamic terrorists to name but a few. If the hoodies want respect then I suggest a change of clothing and a healthy attitude to society is needed, but I am guessing the 'respect' from mine and their perspective are two totally differing things. :roll:
The Pepsi Challenge
30-May-05, 18:03
I also fully understand why old people feel intimidated walking down the street past groups of chavs with hoods up over their faces.
There are very few groups of people who wear hoods/masks that don't want to look intimidating. Those that do can include robbers, the IRA, KKK, Black September, islamic terrorists to name but a few. If the hoodies want respect then I suggest a change of clothing and a healthy attitude to society is needed, but I am guessing the 'respect' from mine and their perspective are two totally differing things. :roll:
I wear a hoodie because I like them. I also wear it over my head when out-and-about, including in shops. For me, it feels comfortable, and makes me feel quite secure. However, if someone politely asked me to remove it, I'd ask why first, then do so out of courtesy. Admittedly, though, the large % of hoodie wearers are neds, and for that, I think this is why this piece of apparel has come up as a topic of debate.
The Pepsi Challenge
30-May-05, 18:42
Sad, innit? We can't help it, but we still judge people by their looks, clothes, hair, and yes, even hooded tops.
I know I will tickle the wrath of the usual caithness.org sappy guardians of political correctness, but I think I share the views of the majority.
Just because you're seldom able to defend your point of view without squealing "I was only playing Devil's Advocate" as a defence doesn't make it okay to start insulting those who might question your 'point of view' before anybody has actually said anything.
Sad, innit? We can't help it, but we still judge people by their looks, clothes, hair, and yes, even hooded tops.
Very sad, yeah, but it seems we always have and always will. There seems to be no acknowledgement whatsoever that the majority of teenagers wearing hoodies are just going about their business, worrying about spots/exams/boyfriends/girlfriends and whether they're going to be accepted into uni so they can get the hell out of Caithness for a few years. :confused
I know I will tickle the wrath of the usual caithness.org sappy guardians of political correctness, but I think I share the views of the majority.
Just because you're seldom able to defend your point of view without squealing "I was only playing Devil's Advocate" as a defence doesn't make it okay to start insulting those who might question your 'point of view' before anybody has actually said anything.
Surprise Surprise. You are seldom capable of putting your point across without the trailing 'smart alec' put-down and you rarely see a genuine opinion when you come across one without attacking the holder of it.
I guess I am now going to get the long quote/reply treatment... :roll:
Sad, innit? We can't help it, but we still judge people by their looks, clothes, hair, and yes, even hooded tops.
Indeed 'tis. I've been told that the hoodie below isn't all bad.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41124000/jpg/_41124627_star_darth203.jpg
Despite the hood and his evil-looking eyes, he's just a bit misunderstood, and he'll eventually see the error of his ways. In the meantime, he'll get into fights and end up legless...
champagnebaby
30-May-05, 19:39
I know I will tickle the wrath of the usual caithness.org sappy guardians of political correctness, but I think I share the views of the majority.
Just because you're seldom able to defend your point of view without squealing "I was only playing Devil's Advocate" as a defence doesn't make it okay to start insulting those who might question your 'point of view' before anybody has actually said anything.
Surprise Surprise. You are seldom capable of putting your point across without the trailing 'smart alec' put-down and you rarely see a genuine opinion when you come across one without attacking the holder of it.
I guess I am now going to get the long quote/reply treatment... :roll:
Handbags away!!
LOL [lol] :lol:
The Pepsi Challenge
30-May-05, 19:44
Sad, innit? We can't help it, but we still judge people by their looks, clothes, hair, and yes, even hooded tops.
Indeed 'tis. I've been told that the hoodie below isn't all bad.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41124000/jpg/_41124627_star_darth203.jpg
Despite the hood and his evil-looking eyes, he's just a bit misunderstood, and he'll eventually see the error of his ways. In the meantime, he'll get into fights and end up legless...
There is some good in him.
:lol:
…and you rarely see a genuine opinion when you come across one without attacking the holder of it.
I’ve no intention of getting drawn into an argument with you again Rheghead… but only because I haven’t yet heard enough from you to work out of this is another of your wind-ups or if you’ve finally found an opinion of your own..
However, I think that the record should note that it was you who entered this thread with an attack on “the usual Caithness.org sappy guardians of political correctness”. I’m quite certain that I know exactly who you were referring to when you said this and would like to say that not one of those people referred to you in any of the previous posts here. Therefore it was you, not Drutt or anybody else, who came into this thread with a ‘smart alec’ put-down and an attack on other posters.
Come back when you’ve found an opinion you believe rather than one you think will start an argument and maybe we’ll talk some more.
I think, in my humble opinion, that these "hoodies" are intimidating. I, for one, decided to go down the street today and see this. They ARE intimidating. I am a mere 34 year old!!
It all goes back to doing away with the belt in schools. If it was still in, these wee scallys (canna say any more, I will get barred!!) would get there wee mooths shut up, the same as our were.
Bring back the strap, and the birch when we are at it.
The Loafer
Look guys
what are we talking about here?
Hoodies arent intimidating. the media has hyped this up to such an extent that we are once again over reacting - like the snowball thing. I wouildnt be nervous of a group of kids wearing hoodies - i would be nervous of a group of kids with their faces bandaged up to cover their identities whilst they do a spot of murder and mayhem.
But a hoodie is a hooded sweatshirt and its a sweatshirt!!!!!!!!!!! With a hood - it isnt dark glasses and a machine gun and a big stick to beat someone with. Of course youngsters and oldsters who go into shopping centres with their scarves hats completely covering their face might need to be aksed to remove said items in the interests of security but a hoodie is different.
And Rheghead you might think we are all bleeding hearts and liberals and thats up to you but labelling kids as villans for an item of clothing or their hair has gone on for so long that we should have learnt out lessons by now - its so predictable.
Short hair, long hair, punk rock, skinheads, mods, rockers, shell suits and on and on the list is endless. Do we never learn that actually its nothing to do with what kids wear that makes them break the law? You were involved in the apprehension of youngsters once i believe - how many said
" well officer... i was a good boy til i bought this Hoodie"? or
" as soon as his hair grew long he started to beat up old ladies"
sigh
Not many squidge, just a tad after my time on her majesties, but I reckon there will be a few now who would admit that it was the punk scene that contributed to their unsocial behavior rather than they came out with the original thought to trash the local bus stop for example.
Plus there is no practical application for a hoodie, they aren't waterproof, there is no reason for them. At least a parker kept out the rain...
neep___docker
30-May-05, 22:47
Can we also ban cloth caps from old men driving cars. One of them in front of you driving down the street is more of a danger to society than any pimpley youth in a hoodie. ;)
The Pepsi Challenge
31-May-05, 02:13
but I reckon there will be a few now who would admit that it was the punk scene that contributed to their unsocial behavior rather than they came out with the original thought to trash the local bus stop for example.
A sweeping generalisaton. The punk scene was most certainly not about unsocial behaviour. And yep, the pin-through-the-nose image was a tabloid invention.
Can we also ban cloth caps from old men driving cars. One of them in front of you driving down the street is more of a danger to society than any pimpley youth in a hoodie.
:) Agreed.
I own about 6 or 7 hoodies, very seldom is the hood ever up on any of them, although it does make for a good bit of wind protection when nipping out to the corner shop. If I run to the shop they're waterproof enough to save me a soaking (but not in a real downpour).
I agree that shopping centres, shops, banks and businesses of all kinds would ban anything that makes you inidentifiable on camera. So that would be helmets, hats, wigs, sunglasses, hoodies etc etc. in banks for example, you are not allowed to wear a helmet but you can still carry it, you dont have to leave it at the door. So the same is true for hoodies, take the hood down and who will complain? no-one.
I think if there is going to be government legislation then it should cover all aspects of "disguise", not just hoodies and then it can at least be seen as fair. Hoodies have just been easy to demonise as large groups of kids hang about street corners wearing them, looking all moody and teenage-like, makes for a good photo.
Plus there is no practical application for a hoodie, they aren't waterproof, there is no reason for them.
Since when has one had to have a practical application for each piece of clothing?
What were stripey socks all about then? With toes in?
How practical are high heels?
mini skirts? pencil skirts? Flared trousers - all that material flapping about and getting wet?
Whats the practical application of a tie?
Hoodies are fashionable and thats the only point. They are warm and fashonable and they are simply sweatshirts
I have no problem with hooded garments, I own quite a few. They are practical and keep you warm - but no need to have the hood up whilst indoors.
frank ward
31-May-05, 10:36
As expected the usual 'hang-em-and-flog-em brigade have posted their dreary opinions.
I'm inside Eastgate plenty often and I've never ever seen a hoodie with the hood up. What I do see are hoards of youngsters meeting up and enjoying themselves. The most offensive thing I've seen in the Eastgate is the god-awful 'sculpture' planted in the middle of the food hall. This paranoia about teenage fashion would be ridiculously funny, if it wasn't for the nasty hidden agenda - which is scapegoating an easy target in order to divert attention from real issues.
People who go along with this Law-And-Order masquerade are allowing the government to get away with their failings. Where are the youth clubs? Where are the affordable sports facilities, and the means to get there? What happened to school playing fields?
When we see this latest reactionary bandwagon being pushed by rags like the Mail and the Sun we should look to examine their motives. It is to continuously stir the 'crimewave' pot and force the debate into a diversionary cul-de-sac. Blunkett was more than happy to do this and Blair too is sucking up to the Tory press as he has always done.
Wise up, don't go along with this latest pogrom and stop demonising youngsters. I'll certainly be going to the demo outside the Eastgate in suppport of simple freedoms. I'm 53 and can remember dressing in the most ridiculous suits and hanging out with mates dressed the same. None of us even contemplated thieving or mugging.
I caught a pickpocket dipping into my wife's handbag in a crowded Paris attraction. He wasn't wearing a hoodie or anything like it. He was VERY smartly dressed, aged about 14, cool as a cucumber. There were no gendarmes handy so I emptied his pockets (no ID card of course, though they're compulsory in France) and gave the little brat a severe slapping, much to the justified consternation of the passing public!!
My 15 year old wants to come along to this - he actually isnt a hoddie wearer - doesnt liket hem much but he recognises the ridiculousness of it all so ill no doubt see you there frank
OUR YOUNG PEOPLE WILL NOT BE TURNED INTO SCAPEGOATS
*
I like the general way you throw things around “young people” when you are referring to hoodies, completely two different things. Young people are not scapegoats and never have been but they can be manipulated into politic pawns for others benefit. A lot of hoodies that I know are adults, 95% of them crooks. I assume if a trend started for wearing balaclavas you would be totally happy with that as well. Why is it that these minorities have enough clout to misrepresent the majority of youth?? Me thinks its pure politics and a chance for media coverage.
YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE, NOT WHAT YOU WEAR
*
That’s another load of baloney. So why wear hoods in a group, why adorn colours, why sport a skinhead and swastika, why wear long hair with an Iron Maiden t-shirt, why sport dreadlocks or why wear a kippot???????
So from the above statement you made it is irrelevant to each of the above what they wear, it has totally no significance to either of the different groups.
By that theory the Kippot wearer will swap the skinhead his false swastika tattoo and boots and of course visa versa. Or the hoody will calmly swap his hood for a suit and black brogues. Oh I can see it now all these people playing happy families.
What you wear is an expression of who you are.
REAL JOBS AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. NO TO A LIFETIME OF EDUCATION AND CONSUMER DEBT.
What a shame if we were to educate our children and put them into good jobs. Consumer debt is a weakness that is not taught.
Here is a nice spanner for the works, I say put all these kids in the army for a couple of years, Teach them respect, discipline and give them a trade to come out with, also give them a chance to do something for their country.
As expected the usual 'hang-em-and-flog-em brigade have posted their dreary opinions.
. Where are the youth clubs? Where are the affordable sports facilities, and the means to get there? What happened to school playing fields?
!!
Open your eyes they are everywhere, and what a flippen shame if the kids had to walk a bit to get there. These facilities have been made incredable cheap so that everyone can enjoy them. But then again if you need the money for fags and booze, they may seem expensive. Clubs are being run for as litle as nothing in so many different aspects of sports and play and yet they are crying out for patrons. Go down to the street corner and talk to the group of youths smoking and sucking booze there and they will tell you there is nothing else to do or anywhere else to go.
We have taught our youth that if they want something just ask and they will get it, shame that does not carry on outside the domestic scenario.
If they want to be healthy they have to put in the work, if they want new clothes again they have to work. It is so easy to take all the resonsibility away from the person, it seems to me we like to treat these young people as babies
OUR YOUNG PEOPLE WILL NOT BE TURNED INTO SCAPEGOATS
*
I like the general way you throw things around “young people” when you are referring to hoodies, completely two different things. Young people are not scapegoats and never have been but they can be manipulated into politic pawns for others benefit. A lot of hoodies that I know are adults, 95% of them crooks. I assume if a trend started for wearing balaclavas you would be totally happy with that as well.
For goodness sake, it's just a hooded top.
YOU ARE WHAT YOU ARE, NOT WHAT YOU WEAR
*
That’s another load of baloney. So why wear hoods in a group, why adorn colours, why sport a skinhead and swastika, why wear long hair with an Iron Maiden t-shirt, why sport dreadlocks or why wear a kippot???????
So from the above statement you made it is irrelevant to each of the above what they wear, it has totally no significance to either of the different groups.
By that theory the Kippot wearer will swap the skinhead his false swastika tattoo and boots and of course visa versa. Or the hoody will calmly swap his hood for a suit and black brogues. Oh I can see it now all these people playing happy families.
What you wear is an expression of who you are.
Oh, for goodness sake, it's just a hooded top.
Here is a nice spanner for the works, I say put all these kids in the army for a couple of years, Teach them respect, discipline and give them a trade to come out with, also give them a chance to do something for their country.
Oh good grief. Go join the army yourself if you think it's that good. I learned respect and discipline just nicely without it, thank you. I aim to be a good, responsible citizen but I owe this country nothing.
I actually think the army is a good place for many young people but i know the regular sodiers wouldnt thank you for national service.
Drutt is right - its just a sweatshirt. Kids have always smoked and drank on street corners -its part of pushing the boundaries - mostly they would die a thousand deaths if their parents or someone they knew caught them. Clothes do not make a person good or bad - they wear them to conform or to stand out or to blend in to make a statement to be fashionable but donning a hoodie to go down the eastgate centre is hardly going to turn kids into a marauding bunch of criminals
frank ward
31-May-05, 12:00
Setanta remains true to form.
So there are youth clubs etc 'everywhere' are there?
Here in Dornoch, no small village, there is no such club (as far as I'm aware), unless you want to be battered brain-dead by Wee Free evangelists.
Of course there's always the Army Cadets, where they try to get you to join up with an official gang of international thugs and killers - but that's OK its for Queen & Country (er, and Mr Bush).
One reason for the decline of community-run clubs is of course the same paranoia fostered by the Sun, Mail etc - and that's the paranoia about 'paedophiles' infiltrating our kids clubs.
Plenty of parents are unwilling to volunteer for such activities because of the detailed police checks and the fear of being targeted by accusations of touching-up kids. I used to run a roller-skating club in my village hall, attracting over 40 kids a time, but for someone to do that now there are plenty of obstacles, however worthy or well-intentioned.
That leaves much responsibility on local councils to provide trained youth leaders etc - no doubt Setanta will be amongst the first to complain about a waste of council-tax-payers money.
Trying to get parents to help run Brownies or guides cubs or scouts is almost impossible. Youth clubs do exist but they are not plentiful especially in some of the smalkler places. Sports clubs are fine if thats what you like and church groups are also good if you dont mind the religious aspect - my kids didnt like the church group at all.
Army Cadets is there too but i have heard tales of alcohol and maybe even drugs being available to youngsters in these groups.
also these are organised by adults for kids - where is the stuff that kids organise for themselves? Id like to see this more often i think
I have no problem with hooded garments, I own quite a few. They are practical and keep you warm - but no need to have the hood up whilst indoors.
exactly. Hoods should be removed in shops for obvious reasons. but with weather like ours they do give protection outdoors.
We saw three hooded youths trying to break into an empty holiday home. We phoned the police but by the time they arrived the boys had gone. Of course we couldn't dentify them - they were all wearing hoods! Sorry all you innocents who love your hoods, but it's the minority that is spoiling it for you.
. [/quote]
For goodness sake, it's just a hooded top.
Oh, for goodness sake, it's just a hooded top.
MMM a piece of metal lying on the ground with a sharp point is just an object
a broken wine bottle in the hand is just damaged goods
a parker pen is just a pen
a wooden mixing spoon is just a spoon
an orange sash is just a strip of material
a sam brown belt is just something to keep your clothes tidy
dock martin boots and tight jeans just clothes
balaclava just a head warmer
Ill stop now cause before I fill a couple of pages. I think the above statement was one of the most naive things I have heard in a long time.It just gives no credibility to human psychology.
I dont understand Setanta
are you saying it isnt just a sweat shirt? that it has character changing properties? that it is something other than an item of clothing - with a hood
Like a coat?
Setanta remains true to form.
So there are youth clubs etc 'everywhere' are there?
Here in Dornoch, no small village, there is no such club (as far as I'm aware), unless you want to be battered brain-dead by Wee Free evangelists.
One reason for the decline of community-run clubs is of course the same paranoia fostered by the Sun, Mail etc - and that's the paranoia about 'paedophiles' infiltrating our kids clubs.
Plenty of parents are unwilling to volunteer,
That leaves much responsibility on local councils to provide trained youth leaders etc - no doubt Setanta will be amongst the first to complain about a waste of council-tax-payers money.
No I wouldn’t wish the wee frees on any one, that is unless I didn’t like someone then I would send them round to their door :D
In Dornoch there is a very good Martial Arts club, which kids could go to for an evening.
I totally agree with your Sun statement they whole thing has got way out of hand and paranoia does rule.
Parents want other people to look after their kids. I teach kids and youths and we tried to get a roster going whereby a parent could be present roughly once in every 15 weeks, could we get them to do it ....naw. We soon realized that we were their cheap babysitters.
You’re wrong about your last statement I actual agree that we need more professionals but the old adage springs to mind that “you can take a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”. Where the facilities are on their doorsteps they still don’t go. Before someone jumps down my throat these facilities are crammed full of young people who like mix, play, exercise and have a good time. So heres my question “why are these kids different from the ones on the street corners”?
an orange sash is just a strip of material
It is much more than that ;) Actually it is mainly collarettes that are worn these days, rather then the Sash.
I dont understand Setanta
are you saying it isnt just a sweat shirt? that it has character changing properties? that it is something other than an item of clothing - with a hood
Like a coat?
No offence squidge but I find answering this laborious. I assume that you are taking the Michael. You still singled out the hood and ignored all the other obvious examples. Clothes do change personality take a snivelling little kid and give him the colours of the local gang, while he is wearing them with his mates he thinks he is a hero. Meet him on another day without the kit and his friends and you will see the sniveller again. Ever notice the change in an individual when they are put into a uniform?
A hooded top worn either as a sports item so as not to get cold and cause injuries or as something just to keep an individual warm is fine. But we are not talking about individuals in this scenario, we are talking (at least I am) about groups
an orange sash is just a strip of material
It is much more than that ;) Actually it is mainly collarettes that are worn these days, rather then the Sash.
:roll: I know and the message is still the same :evil
an orange sash is just a strip of material
It is much more than that ;) Actually it is mainly collarettes that are worn these days, rather then the Sash.
Just conjured up a pic of you "collarettes plus the hood over the top" aaahhh [lol] [lol] (thought you would prefer this colour) [lol]
Of course there's always the Army Cadets, where they try to get you to join up with an official gang of international thugs and killers - but that's OK its for Queen & Country (er, and Mr Bush).
How dare you call our Servicemen "International Thugs" all my relations,myself and my two sons served in HM Forces, and we were not "Thugs" or criminals.
It galls me to see the like of you penning this spiteful bile, to try to gain some credance by jumping on this particular bandwagon.
Take a look at your former SSP leader and take him as a shining example to the youth of today. I don't think so!!! a former jailbird.
The British Armed Forces have kept this country and you and your ilk safe and sound for many many years.
No offence squidge but I find answering this laborious.
A hooded top worn either as a sports item so as not to get cold and cause injuries or as something just to keep an individual warm is fine. But we are not talking about individuals in this scenario, we are talking (at least I am) about groups
No offence taken Setanta :D After all you brought us to the crux of the matter.
halleluyah - cos it seemed to be that no one was gonna get there!!!!
What is being talked about is the intimidation of people by youngsters wearing hoods - If we are not talking about individuals - if one youngster in a hoodie isnt scary at all and two youngsters in a hoodie is not really scary either - strikes me the issue isnt hoodies at all but groups of badly behaved ill mannered and criminal kids. That has NOTHING to do with the clothes they are wearing it has to do with their behaviour.
The Eastgate Centre should emply its security staff not to stand at the doors telling kids to take down their hoods cos they assume they are all troublemakers but to break up groups of badly behaved and ill mannered young people who are - in actual fact - behaving in an inappropriate and unpleasant manner.
This hype over hoodies is absolute rubbish and has simply provided the media with a ready scapegoat and contributed to the feeling of insecurity some people have in our society today. It masks the REAL problem and it avoids the need to find a solution. It PRETENDS to do something about the problem of violence and crime in our society and actually does NOTHING at all! It is in fact a complete smoke screen, an illusion and the worst sort of nonsense
Whitewater
31-May-05, 14:27
I've been having a read through this thread and have come to the conclussion that there are a lot sick people on this forum, all trying to outdo each other. :evil
There is nothing wrong with hooded tops, whether they be attached to sweat shirts or coats, I have several and so has my partner and family. They are very practical items of clothing, and it is only good manners to take the tops down when you go indoors to do some shopping or whatever takes your fancy`
However, because of the type of garment it is, it can be very useful when somebody is up to no good and doesn't want to recognised, but that is the way of the world, it always has been and always will be as long as there are humans around. Unfortunately it is always the way that a few will spoil it for everybody else.
STOP PRESS
latest on the MFR news is that this is not gonna happen - the eastage Centre are not going to Ban hoodies they only ask that people do not cover their faces. Eastgate centre is apparently a little unhappy that they have been the subject of this unwarranted bit of publicity
Common sense prevails
:D
Plus there is no practical application for a hoodie, they aren't waterproof, there is no reason for them.
Since when has one had to have a practical application for each piece of clothing?
What were stripey socks all about then? With toes in?
How practical are high heels?
mini skirts? pencil skirts? Flared trousers - all that material flapping about and getting wet?
Whats the practical application of a tie?
Hoodies are fashionable and thats the only point. They are warm and fashonable and they are simply sweatshirts
Well since the basic function of life is just to propagate the next generation, high heel shoes, mini skirts and other skimpy stuff have a very basic practical function in giving what would be normally a 'plain Jane' changing her into quite an attractive young woman...given a pint or two.
Hoodies? Nah, just useless garb, like your toed socks.
George Brims
31-May-05, 20:51
Can we also ban cloth caps from old men driving cars. One of them in front of you driving down the street is more of a danger to society than any pimpley youth in a hoodie. ;)
No no neeps old chap we mustn't ban them. They are a valuable warning signal for the rest of us. Both my own dad, when he was teaching me to drive, and my father-in-law some years later, gave me the same piece of advice - "Watch out for anybody that wears their bunnet when they're driving". Now I've travelled the world a bit, I find it applies to baseball caps, cowboys hats, and ladies' Sunday hats as well.
And you *really* have to keep clear of people who wear theiir hoodie up while they're driving, especiallly when they change lanes.
frank ward
03-Jun-05, 13:24
Northern Constabulary, The management of Eastgate, and all the shops, have withdrawn the proposed ban on hooded tops and baseball caps.
This follows protests from the Scottish Socialist Youth organisation, who visited the parties concerned and explained that such action was unnecessary and inappropriate, and would be resisted.
The Demo has been cancelled. The first attempt within Scotland to impose such measurers has failed.
Congratulations to the Highlands SSY.
The Demo has been cancelled. The first attempt within Scotland to impose such measurers has failed.
Congratulations to the Highlands SSY.
Glad to see you’re so happy that the gang type hoodie has won a victory for intimidation. It’s pretty creepy that you can’t decipher the difference between thugs and an individual. Hope the intimidated feel as gleeful as you do. I am sure my granny will be over the Moon when 3 or 4 of them come along and offer to carry her purse for her :cool: .
It’s pretty creepy that you can’t decipher the difference between thugs and an individual. .
Says You!!!
All teenagers wearing hoodies are not thugs its just a sweatshirt and banning them doesnt tackle the problem of thuggish behaviour
It’s pretty creepy that you can’t decipher the difference between thugs and an individual. .
Says You!!!
All teenagers wearing hoodies are not thugs its just a sweatshirt and banning them doesnt tackle the problem of thuggish behaviour
The thugs cant behave that way if they are not allowed in and if you dont want to be painted with the same brush stand out from the crowd.
luskentyre
03-Jun-05, 18:10
I don't think anyone has suggested that, just because you wear a hooded top, you are a hooligan. That's generalisation in the extreme.
I think it's a sensible precaution to deter people from wearing these items (and items LIKE this) in shopping centres etc. It's a deterrant - it would stop people who are hooligans from thinking they could get away with crime because they stand less chance of getting recognised.
I also suspect such a ban wouldn't just apply to young people, which kind of deflates the Scottish Socialists arguements.
I think it is rather poignant that the photo of the junior minister ( in the Scotsman this week) that was campaigning against hoodlums and yob behavior had a young lad making disrespectful signs behind her back. And guess what? He was wearing a hoodie...
Though your right, it is only an innocent piece of attire, but so are black shirts, brown shirts, bovva boots, green parkers, stud belts and hells angel colours.
Ach you know me!!!!
I have to see the individual - i cant lump people together as groups. I have met some interesting people in my life by being able to do this but i can understand that some of you are too scared or narrow minded to see past the clothes someone wears.
I look at a "black shirt" or a "brown shirt" Rheghead and hope its on a handsome man! I see "bovver boots" - heck i dont even notice peoples footwear to be frank. I wouldnt know what a bovver boot is - unless its a Doc Marten's type thing. Well my cousin used to wear nothing else i quite liked the red ones that fastened up to her knees. Passing a group of kids in hoodies hanging about where the trolleys are ourside tesco last night I said "Excuse me can i get a trolley guys" They parted and one said "that'll be three pounds please" I laughed and said "Aye nice try" and they all laughed and passed me the small trolley i wanted. It was cold and rainy last night - they had hoods up - they werent intimidating just cold and damp i would imagine.
Im gonna say this again despite the fact that it seems so obvious i cant imagine other people having difficulty with the concept.
Banning hoodies in shopping centres or in the streeet or anywhere else for that matter doesnt solve the youth thug problem that everyone thinks it represents. It simply provides a "stereotype" that can persuade people that this sort of behaviour is being confronted when actually it does nothting to stop it or change behaviour. It is a complete smoke screen a complete nonsense. Surely you can see that
Banning hoodies in shopping centres or in the streeet or anywhere else for that matter doesnt solve the youth thug problem that everyone thinks it represents. It simply provides a "stereotype" that can persuade people that this sort of behaviour is being confronted when actually it does nothting to stop it or change behaviour. It is a complete smoke screen a complete nonsense. Surely you can see that
I simply can't understand how some people just can't get the point. Are you saying that being able to identify a person is unimportant when a crime is committed? I haven't seen as much rubbish as this thread has generated since a long time. OF COURSE there's nothing wrong with wearing hoodies, my children do so do I, neither is there anything wrong with wearing a ski-mask at the appropriate time and place.
It is ludicrous that you are even implying that the reason behind the banning of hoods is to solve the thug problem or change behaviour. If it were only that easy! The reason is, to me obvious, so that any one - young or old, committing a crime, can be identified on security camera. Anyone with nothing to hide would have no hesitation in removing hoods when in a shopping mall. You insult the inteligence of the general public by implying that we can be persuaded that this small step is confronting the problem.
It is only one very small step forward, but I would say, a neccessary one. So you met a nice bunch of kids wearing hoods! I'm not surprised - I'm sure most of them are. however, had you not been so lucky, been knocked down and had your handbag snatched, and no onlooker could give a description or even an approx. age because of the 'fashion statement' I wonder if your opinion would have changed.
2little2late
03-Jun-05, 21:41
I think hoodies should be banned from all town centres.
Banning hoodies in shopping centres or in the streeet or anywhere else for that matter doesnt solve the youth thug problem that everyone thinks it represents. It simply provides a "stereotype" that can persuade people that this sort of behaviour is being confronted when actually it does nothting to stop it or change behaviour. It is a complete smoke screen a complete nonsense. Surely you can see that
I simply can't understand how some people just can't get the point.
I simply can't understand how some people just can't get squidge's point.
That some people who commit crimes wear hoodies does not mean that all of those who wear hoodies are criminals. Seeking to officially ban hoodies does nothing more than perpetuate a stereotype. It won't solve a thing.
It won't reduce crime. It won't improve young people's sense of belonging in the world. It won't make older people feel any safer. All it will do is validate the perpetuation of stereotypes.
When the world doesn't improve overnight because we banned hoodies, what will we pick on next? Red trainers? Denim jackets? Baggy trousers? Where will it end? Will we just lock up young people because they might turn out to be criminals?
All that actions like these do is demonise a large group because of the actions of a few. Why is that point so hard for you to 'get'?
luskentyre
03-Jun-05, 23:48
I would have said that the main issue is to do with being able to be recognised in the event of a crime. For that reason alone, it's a deterrent. It's got nothing to do with fashionable clothing. I doubt anyone wearing a balaclava would be too welcome in a bank for instance.
Depends if they had won the lottery or not.
lassieinfife
04-Jun-05, 14:59
Come on give the kids a chance.......just because they wear hoodies dont make them all bad......had some young lads in hoods carry my shopping to taxi ans wouldnt take any money from me........wonder if sandshoes next to be banned????? [disgust]
[quote=squidge]
I simply can't understand how some people just can't get the point.
I simply can't understand how some people just can't get squidge's point.
That some people who commit crimes wear hoodies does not mean that all of those who wear hoodies are criminals. Seeking to officially ban hoodies does nothing more than perpetuate a stereotype. It won't solve a thing.
It won't reduce crime. It won't improve young people's sense of belonging in the world. It won't make older people feel any safer. All it will do is validate the perpetuation of stereotypes.
When the world doesn't improve overnight because we banned hoodies, what will we pick on next? Red trainers? Denim jackets? Baggy trousers? Where will it end? Will we just lock up young people because they might turn out to be criminals?
All that actions like these do is demonise a large group because of the actions of a few. Why is that point so hard for you to 'get'?
It won't reduce crime. Isn't that what i said?
Red trainers, denim jackets, baggy trousers do not hide a persons identity.
Why is this point so hard for you to get?
so banning hoodies makes it easier to identify youths commiting crimes?
I doubt it - they will just wear something else.
The point katarina is that banning the hoodie is ineffectual and a gesture and its daft! Its just banning something for the sake of it and thats just stupid
The point is take your hood down if your indoors in a public place! Simple as that!
so banning hoodies makes it easier to identify youths commiting crimes?
I doubt it - they will just wear something else.
The point katarina is that banning the hoodie is ineffectual and a gesture and its daft! Its just banning something for the sake of it and thats just stupid
Yes they do make crime easier to commit, if they think their identity is easier concealed then they will continue to wear them until something else will come into fashion that will do the same job. Even somebody on here has admitted that they feel more secure by wearing one, why? because they can feel part of the crowd and non-descript. Niobody is suggesting that hoodies maketh the hoodlum. All that is being suggested is that on a suspicion level, shopkeepers are wise to keep an extra eye on those that wear them as they are perfect for identity concealment.
so banning hoodies makes it easier to identify youths commiting crimes?
I doubt it - they will just wear something else.
then if that hides the identity it should be banned as well. And to say they are being banned just for the sake of it is just plain stupid!
[ And to say they are being banned just for the sake of it is just plain stupid!
Im not a stupid woman Katarina - i dont agree with your point of view thats all. I have set out why and you are at liberty to agree with me or not. Im sure that YOU have intelligent well thought out reasons for holding the opinions you have and i wouldnt imagine you are stupid either so please dont be so insulting and dismissive.
Im not going to reiterate my reasons AGAIN because even I'm bored of this, but i'll wait and see what reduction in crime statistics we see where the banning of hoddies is enforced.
Bobinovich
06-Jun-05, 00:55
I don't agree with banning hoodies - it's a freedom of choice thing. However I can't see any problem with sticking a notice on every door into a building requesting that helmets, hoods, hats etc. be removed/lowered prior to entry. Banks have been doing this for years.
I can think of very few concievable reasons why anyone would want to wear one of these items inside, and therefore why they would want to complain at complying with such a simple request.
There are always going to be people, such as those undergoing treatment which causes hair-loss, who may feel self-conscious and wear a hat, but they are surely in the minority of hat/hood wearers.
Just my 2p worth...
Its just banning something for the sake of it and thats just stupid
It wasn't me who used the word 'stupid.' first.
It's okay. I do understand what you're saying. That it's all right to hide ones identity - regardless of their reasons for wanting to remain anonimous, as long as it's fashionable. Well all I can say is that I hope for all our sakes, wearing ski-masks indoors never becomes the in thing!
By the way i agree with everything Bobinovich said - and that is my veiw!
frank ward
07-Jun-05, 10:25
When the SSY first reacted to this issue, it was because of an ill-informed and inflamatory article in the Highland News.
This article ranted on about 'loutish behaviour' etc etc and inferred that the Eastgate was a terror zone.
When the proposed ban on hoodies and caps was confirmed by the Eastgate management, the SSY quite rightly argued that there was no such problem, and that targeting people for wearing popular, commonplace clothing was a kneejerk reaction and part of Blair's reactionary, populist aganda. Kids in the Eastgate DO NOT and HAVE NOT walked around indoors with their hoods up or wearing hats to obscure their identities.
On further investigation it was discovered that the GAP shop was behind this peurile initiative, while at the same time selling racks of its overpriced 'designer' hoodies to the very people it was wanting to ban!
The ban was theoretically to be applied to people wearing hooded clothing whether or not the hood was up. In practice of course this would have been impractical, especially in winter, and of course the principal victims would have been young lads.
Young SSY members were manhandled out of the Centre for giving out leaflets. But faced with a possible boycott GAP retreated. Faced with demonstrations outside (and inside) its premises the Eastgate management retreated.
The argument was won without the need for a demo. Thus we have a victory for common sense and basic freedoms. Congratulations to the SSY.
Thus we have a victory for........ basic freedoms.
That is one of the most ridiculous things that I have seen on caithness.org. Are the Palestinians, the Tibetans, Tutsis fighting for their rights to have their hoodies up? It is certainly not a basic freedom to have ones hoodie up.
This arguement can be carried over to the smoking in confined spaces issue. An owner of a pub can refuse entry to anyone without reason let alone lighting up, it is their own liberty and basic freedom to do so. Same applies to any privately owned building.
Thats funny Rheghead!!! Of course they're not, the SSP havn't set up a protest group over there yet.
part of Blair's reactionary, populist aganda.
That really cracks me up that does, because the SSP's kneejerk reaction was to support the people who are least likely to vote at all, never mind for the SSP. Winning strategy if ever I saw one. I'd be interested to see what would happen if the banks decide to ban all clothing/headwear that could cover the face, helmets/hoods/hats. Would the SSP plan a boycott of the banks or would they jump in a say its just common sense that people not cover their faces whilst in a bank.
I was going to keep out of this one because I thought it was a bit silly arguing over something so seemingly trivial. I guess I may have misjudged the issue...
FWIW I pretty much agree with Bobinovich:
I don't agree with banning hoodies - it's a freedom of choice thing. However I can't see any problem with sticking a notice on every door into a building requesting that helmets, hoods, hats etc. be removed/lowered prior to entry. Banks have been doing this for years.
I can think of very few concievable reasons why anyone would want to wear one of these items inside, and therefore why they would want to complain at complying with such a simple request.
There are always going to be people, such as those undergoing treatment which causes hair-loss, who may feel self-conscious and wear a hat, but they are surely in the minority of hat/hood wearers.
Just my 2p worth...
IMHO the idea of banning hoodies from shopping centres is just silly; it's as silly as the suggestion that it's a basic human right to walk around a shopping centre with your hood up. Is it not simply a matter of common courtesy to take down your hood when asked to do so inside a shopping centre?
However, what happens when crimes are committed outdoors? Here is an excerpt from an article in today's Herald (http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/40743.html) entitled Three attacked with knife in ‘slapping’ craze; it's about an attack in Glasgow:
Police were yesterday hunting three teenage boys, wearing hooded tops, who carried out the unprovoked attacks.
They struck the 30-year-old woman and the two men, aged 22 and 36, from behind as they walked in the city's west end.
Maybe hoodies should be banned everywhere. :eyes
Yes but DrSzin, how long do we rely other peoples common decency to put down their hoodies when it is clear they don't have the common decency in the first place?
Also, I think the turn around on not persuing hoodies has more to do with avoiding confrontation with muslim groups over religious dress than tackling a load of youths with hoodies...what cowards if true?
They? Rheghead - who are this collective they and how do you identify them? All kids wearing hoodies? Bad kids wearing hoodies? Kids at risk oif offending wearing hoodies?
What about coats with hoods, hats - woolly, baseball, flat caps, hats with ear pieces, headscarves, woooly scarves wound up around your neck and chin with a wooly hat, balaclavas,dark glasses
What about three, six, nine year olds with hoodies on - would there be an age limit?
"Im sorry madam but you cant come into our shopping centre because your child is wearing a hoodie!" "But he is in his pushchair" ?"I'm sorry madam the rules are the rules"
When does a child become a potential hooligan? When is it acceptable to wear a hoodie and when not? Is there to be a hoodie age of consent in reverse? What about gloves? they prevent fingerprints from being left, so surely are "obscuring the identity of the perpetrators of a crime"
I know this is all nonsense but cant you see how ridiculous the idea of banning an item of clothing and expecting this will make places safer is? How about banning raincoats with big pockets cos the most efficient shoplifter i ever saw wore one of those. I was mugged once bundled into the boot of a car and my handbag stolen - guy wasnt wearing a hoodie but i couldnt identify him even when faced with CCTV from the street.
Aaaaarrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Also, I think the turn around on not persuing hoodies has more to do with avoiding confrontation with muslim groups over religious dress than tackling a load of youths with hoodies...what cowards if true?
What? Religious dress - now theres a new slant on things!!!But actually its about it being a STUPID ( theres that word again) Idea in the first place!!!!
"Im sorry madam but you cant come into our shopping centre because your child is wearing a hoodie!" "But he is in his pushchair" ?"I'm sorry madam the rules are the rules"
You are just being a bit silly for the sake of it. Shopkeepers are complaining about youths goin on shoplifting sprees, dressed in hoodies that use them to hide their identities from CCTV. No one is suggesting stopping mothers entering a shopping mall cos their infant has a hoodie.
Are you suggesting that shopkeepers are incapable of using the power of discetion? :roll:
No Rheghead im suggesting that they are ENTIRELY capable of using their powers of discretion to follow, ask to leave or permanently ban anyone they feel is behaving in a suspicious manner regardless of whet they wear. They dont need a BAN on a peice of clothing to do that. Its the BAN that is ridiculous, To ban anyone from a shopping cetnre wearing a hoodie is nonsensical, unmanageable and wont reduce anything crime, violence or intimidation. Its the behaviour that needs to be addressed not the clothing
I was going to keep out of this one because I thought it was a bit silly arguing over something so seemingly trivial. I guess I may have misjudged the issue...
I'm with you on that one Szin (surprise surprise) just had to stick my oar in - guess I'm a message board addict.......
Aw katarina you surely arent laughing at my high horse!!!!
Im rather fond of it you know [lol]
Actually squidge, i'm not at all sure we're not on the same side, just with our wires crossed. What I'm saying is I understand the lodgic behind banning hoodies - or anything else that hides the identity.
And it's a real pity the bad guys are using this fashion to their advantage. I know how silly your statement about babies wearing hoodies sounded - but maybe you're not so far off the mark. When we were in Canada, we went into a lincenced premises with friends and their children. We were told that children were only allowed in if they were eating. We said fine, we intend to eat. We ordered our meal, and the waitress looked at the 6mth old baby. Again she repeated, children were only allowed in if they were eating. I said, for goodness sake, the baby isn't going to eat burger and chips! And she said sorry that's the rules. We said fine, we'll sit outside at the tables in the garden. she said, sorry, you can't sit there, the same rules apply. Needless to say, we left!
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