NORFROST

[neep___docker]

Once again, an entire discussion thread has been deleted by an over-zealous moderator who clearly has a problem with any debate on this topic of Norfrost and CASE.

So, in the interests of redressing the balance, here is a quick summary of the most recent thread which was removed:

- the trucks and some of the buildings at Norforst have now gone up for auction;

- there was debate about the fact that Norfrost contributed little to the Caithness economy - they never used external suppliers, and employed cheap labour;

- on the subject of not using external suppliers, it was noted that while there was nothing wrong with this from a business point of view, CASE should not been investing in a company that would result in displacement - e.g. getting financial support for the running of their own fleet of lorries in competition to local hauliers;

- on the subject of the cheap labour, it was noted that, especially in the early days, a lot of their workforce was people with learning difficulties who were not treated as equals. Also, although Norforst had contributed millions in wages to the county over the years, so had many other 'less glamourous' employers who have never seen a penny of public money in support from CASE;

- it was noted that the most recent £1.2million that CASE gave Norfrost shortly before its collapse was a secured loan. There was a query over what it was secured against, and if that money is ever likely to be returned.

Now, can we return to sensible debate on the subject without the Caithness Stasi closing down the thread ?

[KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN]

neep docker do you know where the trucks and trailers are up for auction??? locally?? coghills or quoybrae or KPMG running it ??

[Caledonia]

I don't know so much about over zealous moderators.

Were there to be any legal comeback the hosts of this site are the 'publishers' of what people post here.

;)

[Riffman]

Why do these forums keep getting filled up with threads about things that have happened? I mean whats the point of talking about something that is past news? Or am I being to [disgust] again......

Why not talk about...naa can't be bothered starting a debate about that.

Riff

[KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN]

dunno why they start - but i am interested to find out where the trailers and trucks are being sold not mulling over what has happened, and anyway - no one is forcing you to read or participate in any thread - can't see the problem.

although I do see your point it is a bit off putting things back up when the clearly have been taken off for a reason

[JD2]

Once again, an entire discussion thread has been deleted by an over-zealous moderator who clearly has a problem with any debate on this topic of Norfrost and CASE

Blatantly obvious that Bill Fernie is deleting the threads for personal reasons, is that how a forum should be run :confused

My thoughts on Norfrost is similar to that of others here, Norfrost were a one idea company with little business vision and too much greed. They provided jobs and were seen to benefit the local economy for a number of years but those jobs were mostly low-skilled and very low paid. Norfrost recieved millions of public money over the years, continual handouts from CASE, and subsidies and grants from the job centre - of course they could employ as many staff when the wages were being paid by someone else, employing someone with learning difficulties or any form of disablement got them a minimum half the wage paid for by the job centre along with grants on top of that. They sent a lot of work abroad for cheaper labour costs, it was cheaper for them to export raw materials to foreign parts and have the work done and then imported back in.

Companies of Norfrosts stature should not be recieving handouts. It is like the jobless getting nothing whilst premier league footballers get benefits, that is what it is on a par with when your average man or woman gets no help whilst companies like Norfrost recieve regular sizeable handouts.

Had anyone else recieved the funding that Norfrost did over the years, they would've sustained as many if not more jobs and benefitted the local economy to a far greater extent - probably wouldn't have gone bust either.

If the 1.2m loan was secured then the public should have access to what it was secured against and how much of it will be recovered.

JD

[squidge]

a minimum half the wage paid for by the job centre along with grants on top of that.


All subsidies paid by the jobcentre are for a limited period of time and are designed only to overcome barriers experinced by taking on someone who is long term unemployed or has other problems. If you are referring to the sheltered workshop facility that norfrost ran that would have been "sheltered placements" and as such the people would have been assessed at a percetage of the output of an able bodied employee. I think this is how it works although its been a while since i was an expert norfrost would pay for the "output" of that person and another organisation - a managing agent type company - would make the persons wages up to the full time rate - norfrost actually wouldnt make money out of this.

[neep___docker]

neep docker do you know where the trucks and trailers are up for auction??? locally?? coghills or quoybrae or KPMG running it ??

Someone else had found out that an agent had been appointed for the auction - the company is Rydens - they deal in property - its not a local job.

I doubt if you'd want their vehicles anyway, as they weren't maintained very well.

[~~Tides~~]

- there was debate about the fact that Norfrost contributed little to the Caithness economy - they never used external suppliers, and employed cheap labour

Anyone who has this view clearly has no idea of the mechanics of ecconomy or even common sense.

How many people does the plant employ? About 200?
So even if the labour is from abroad. The workers have to stay here, the have to eat here. They generally spend money in the area, even though they are not local. Even if they dont spend a lot there is still an awful lot of them using local services. And as much forign workers as they had, the bulk were still local.

Also just the fact that a multi-national is in the region is good for the local ecconomy.

So dont say that they dont contribute to the local ecconomy 'cos it just wont wash.

[neep___docker]

According to Companies House, as of today 30th May 2005.....

- Norfrost Ltd, registered at Murrayfield, Castletown, is in Administration;

- Norfrost Holdings Ltd, registered at Murrayfield, Castletown, is an active trading company;

- Norfrost Technologies Ltd, registered at Murrayfield, Castletown, is an active trading company.


NONE of these companies have logged accounts with Companies House since 2002. Accounts on all of these companies are overdue, despite a legal obligation of a limited company to file them timely annually.

Therefore, on what financial basis was CASE making its investment of £1.2million in 2004 ? It certainly couldn't have been on official audited accounts as they are not submitted. Therefore why is a public body chucking taxpayers money at a business that won't meet its statutory obligations to submit annual accounts ?

[The Pepsi Challenge]

Therefore why is a public body chucking taxpayers money at a business that won't meet its statutory obligations to submit annual accounts ?

That's a very good question. Anyone care to speculate?

[webmannie]

Never mind speculation, as a taxpayer i'd like an explanation!

[Through]

Judging from some of the low quality content of the postings here, I'll be very disappointed if this thread is not deleted in the very near future.

All these people trying to talk about things they know or understand very little about. Worse, they are portraying their "facts" in a way that fits their own agendas.

Petty jealousy and bitterness are evil things.

Some people reading this will know absolutely nothing about the subject and might be inclined to believe the mis-information and propaganda.

Go and do something constructive with your lives.

I worked at Norfrost and got made redundant. I resent the spiteful comments that are flying on these pages. I'm glad of the time I spent there and now I'm trying to find another way to support my family.

[Margaret M.]

Judging from some of the low quality content of the postings here

LOL, I think yours just took the prize. I find this whole discussion quite interesting but if you know that much of what is shared is not valid, why don't you enlighten us?

[neep___docker]

So then, Through, I suppose the management at Norfrost explained to their workforce why all of the Norforst companies have not submitted audited annual accounts since 2002 ?

The most common reasons for companies doing this is:

a) the auditors refuse to approve the accounts of the companies

b) the company doesn't want to anybody else to see what's going on.

[KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN]

neep docker do you know where the trucks and trailers are up for auction??? locally?? coghills or quoybrae or KPMG running it ??

Someone else had found out that an agent had been appointed for the auction - the company is Rydens - they deal in property - its not a local job.

I doubt if you'd want their vehicles anyway, as they weren't maintained very well.

dont worry neep docker, know all aout the vehicles its the trailers im interested in - thanks for the infor though

[fred]

Therefore why is a public body chucking taxpayers money at a business that won't meet its statutory obligations to submit annual accounts ?

That's a very good question. Anyone care to speculate?

If I had to speculate my guesse would be that they didn't.

My guesse would be that CASE agreed the funding conditionally, the conditions wern't met,
CASE withdrew the funding causing the company to go bust.

Just a wild guesse on my part, pure speculation but a possibility.

[Poddington]

Just a thought - is anybody reading this a creditor of Norfrost?
If so did you know you could reduce the speculation by asking the Administrator questions?
Questions like:
Is the CASE loan of £1.2M accounted for in the financial records?
Was it used for the designated purpose or simply to enable continuing trading?
To what company (in Aberdeen?) was the engineering equipment sold?
What was the price achieved?
What was the book value of the items sold?
Has any director of Norfrost a formal or financial interest in the buying company?
When did Norfrost first become insolvent?
Did the directors allow the company to continue trading after they knew, or should have known it was insolvent?
Could come up with a lot more but, hey, will probably never see an answer anyway. Adminstrator seems to have decided the Directors are good guys without doing any investigation into the company's affairs.
Yes I did previously work in the "liquidation" business with the government one, the Official Reciever, when we used to do full investigations. Those were the days..... :cool:

[neep___docker]

Just a thought - is anybody reading this a creditor of Norfrost?

Barely anyone in the area is a creditor of Norfrost as they tried to limit the number of suppliers to as few as possible.

Heck, they couldn't even bear to buy their cars from anyone else - when they decided they needed to buy themselves Lexus cars, they opened up a Toyota franchise in Thurso (which also went bust!).

[neep___docker]

For anyone in any doubt about the working conditions for Average Joe in Norfrost, then get it from the horse's mouth at the personal website of this (ex)employee, who uses the phrase "borderline sweat shop":

http://members.lycos.co.uk/grouchtilda/hobbies0.html