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DSTOTM
25-Jun-16, 21:18
I don't quite understand it, why did the majority of the Scottish population vote to remain in the EU and why does Nicola Sturgeon want to remain in the EU? I thought her general idea was for Scotland to be an independent country, free from the shackles of "Westminster" and all that but she teamed up with "Westminster" to remain in the EU and now we have voted to leave the EU she is calling for another referendum on Scottish independence but is adamant Scotland did not vote to leave the EU?

I am no political expert but do understand the meaning of the word "independence":

The fact or state of being independent.
"Argentina gained independence from Spain in 1816"
synonyms: Self-government, self-rule, home rule, self-legislation, self-determination, sovereignty,autonomy, non-alignment, freedom, liberty.

From what I can understand, Nicola Sturgeon wants to break up the United Kingdom and wants Scotland to be an independent country BUT she wants Scotland to remain a member of the European Union? How does that all add up?

The UK voting to leave the EU is now being called "independence day", ie: we will soon be free from the bureaucracy of the EU and free to run our country as we see fit without having to kowtow to Brussels.... theoretically the UK will be an independent country once again. That's true independence isn't it?

Nicola Sturgeon has a slightly strange take on the meaning of independence, she wants Scotland to be independent from the rest of the UK but wants Scotland to be part of the European Union. That just doesn't make any sense, whatsoever, to me and seems to be extremely contradictory. Independence is independence, you can't say you want to be totally independent but insist on receiving a £1,000 monthly allowance from your parents can you?

Maybe I am missing something very obvious here but, for the life of me, cannot understand why Nicola Sturgeon wants to remain in the European Union if an independent Scotland is such a great thing?

My gut feeling is that she will throw a spanner into the works and make it up as she goes (whatever the scenario is) just to further her career and get a foot inside the door that is known as the "establishment". If the majority of the UK had voted to remain in the EU I am confident she would have turned that around to a good reason for another referendum too.

It's a bad sign when a politician doesn't accept the decision of the people and keeps insisting on yet "another" referendum until they get their way. I trust I am not the only person who sees this?

tonkatojo
25-Jun-16, 21:26
Most reasoned and common sense post on this subject to date, no doubt it will be pulled to pieces shortly.

DSTOTM
25-Jun-16, 22:00
Most reasoned and common sense post on this subject to date, no doubt it will be pulled to pieces shortly.

Thank you. I doubt "Nicola Sturgeon" will manage to pull to pieces the Oxford dictionary with regard to the meaning of "independence". Independence is independence, period! No such thing as independence AND relying / sharing with others..... that's known as a union ;)

Union:The action of joining together or the fact of being joined together, especially in a political context.

United:
Joined together politically, for a common purpose, or by common feelings.

Independent:
Free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.

Everybody is free to pull the Oxford dictionary to pieces BUT it is the language we all understand...... if I say I am "independent" then I am........ Nicola Sturgeons take on the word "independent" is alien to me as I don't recognise her idea of independence, it is totally alien to the actual meaning of the word "independence".

Headwark
25-Jun-16, 23:03
I could not have put it better myself. Thanks for a great post.

DSTOTM
25-Jun-16, 23:06
I could not have put it better myself. Thanks for a great post.

My pleasure Sir, thank you.

tonkatojo
25-Jun-16, 23:40
Thank you. I doubt "Nicola Sturgeon" will manage to pull to pieces the Oxford dictionary with regard to the meaning of "independence". Independence is independence, period! No such thing as independence AND relying / sharing with others..... that's known as a union ;)

Union:The action of joining together or the fact of being joined together, especially in a political context.

United:
Joined together politically, for a common purpose, or by common feelings.

Independent:
Free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.

Everybody is free to pull the Oxford dictionary to pieces BUT it is the language we all understand...... if I say I am "independent" then I am........ Nicola Sturgeons take on the word "independent" is alien to me as I don't recognise her idea of independence, it is totally alien to the actual meaning of the word "independence".



She will be saying the Oxford dictionary is not applicable to Scotland and a Scottish SNP edition is being formed as we type .:confused

Alrock
26-Jun-16, 01:33
On the pure definition if Independence then there is no such thing as an Independent country.
You have International laws, Maritime laws, World trade laws, Laws of war, etc...

In fact the only country I can think off that can even remotely be described as Independent is North Korea & do you really want to emulate them?

mi16
26-Jun-16, 07:43
On the pure definition if Independence then there is no such thing as an Independent country.
You have International laws, Maritime laws, World trade laws, Laws of war, etc...

In fact the only country I can think off that can even remotely be described as Independent is North Korea & do you really want to emulate them?

well lets accept that international laws as that and disregard them from the debate.
It is a bit odd that the Nats bang on about wanting to be free but are also desperate to be part of the EU.
Personally I felt that the country has messed up by voting us out, but hey thats democracy.

Rheghead
26-Jun-16, 14:05
Independence is different to sovereignty, what we mean in everyday language as Scottish Independence is actually Scottish Sovereighty, the right to choose against the ability to choose.

I think we need full Scottish Sovereignty on a permanent basis to be able to have the right to choose its destiny and what comes with that sovereignty is the ability to choose to be a part of sometime that is bigger and better, ie the EU. whereas the whole point about being in the UK is that we are better together, the assumption that whatever we collectively decide as the UK is in all our interests. But it is absolutely clear that the majority of England and Wales are capable of making the biggest acts of stupidity to their own country in vault face to all the experts advice on economy, science and the wishes of the people of Scotland and northern Ireland.

Why would we want to be a part of that? Brexit was a monumental act of self-harm to our economy, environment and hard fought rights and culture and it was taken by people outwith the borders of Scotland. Surely we aren't too small and thick to realise that actually as the people of Scotland we can make the right decisions that govern our lives?

janeyj
26-Jun-16, 16:00
Can someone tell me if I'm wrong? My simple mind (Oh dear!) believes that Scotland recently voted to stay part of the UK (which was part of the EU). OK. Now my simple mind tells me that, with the UK voting to leave the EU, Nicola thinks it's better for Scotland to ditch the rest of the UK in favour of the rest of Europe. Confused.com?

Rheghead
26-Jun-16, 16:20
Can someone tell me if I'm wrong? My simple mind (Oh dear!) believes that Scotland recently voted to stay part of the UK (which was part of the EU). OK. Now my simple mind tells me that, with the UK voting to leave the EU, Nicola thinks it's better for Scotland to ditch the rest of the UK in favour of the rest of Europe. Confused.com?

but the UK that Scotland voted to remain part of has changed significantly. The Leave side said that 70% of all UK laws were EU law, that will not be the case after Brexit. The UK is 70% different now, legally and constitutionally.

Kevin Milkins
26-Jun-16, 20:07
Something that I find amusing about percentages is that when you look at them in their full context it a whole new game changer. The population of the UK is a bit over 65 million and the population of Scotland is a bit over 5 million.

sids
26-Jun-16, 21:09
The SNP can be pro-EU and anti-England.

Seems simple enough.

DSTOTM
26-Jun-16, 21:19
It's turning into a bit of a shambles and Nicola Sturgeon wanting another referendum will not help matters. Two years ago the majority of Scotland voted to remain in the UK, the UK has voted to leave the EU (Scotland is part of the UK) so let's concentrate on that and get the best we can from it...... to throw a Scottish referendum into the ring is just absolute madness in my opinion. Let's do our best to make sure this break with the EU is in our best interest instead of concentrating on superficial things like Nicola Sturgeon's ambition to become a credible figure in Scottish history.

The SNP don't appear to be very "democratic"..... there is a referendum, they lose and they don't accept the outcome of the referendum so they demand another referendum claiming that the last referendum was fuelled by "project fear" as if to say "the 55% that voted to remain in the UK are gullible idiots who were forced by "fear" to vote to remain in the UK. What happens after the next referendum if the majority of Scots vote to remain in the UK? Another referendum?

It's absolutely diabolical, these people are causing division and hatred and are certainly not following the will of the people, they are out for themselves and quite happy to cause division and hatred as long as they reach their own personal goals.

Let's look at a four horse race..... you have cumberland sausage, Golden Heather, Mick's trick and pride of the valley in the race.......

Pride of the valley wins the race by one length. That's it, race is over, the winner is announced and everyone lives with it.

Nicola is one of these people who will always insist that it wasn't a fair race and Pride of the valley only beat Golden Heather by one length so will demand that the race is run again until "eventually" her choice of horse wins.

What's the point of voting if the outcome is challenged by the loser? What's the point of a game of football if the outcome is challenged by the loser? What's the point of democracy if the democratic process is not respected and upheld?

I really do fear for Scotland if the likes of Nicola get their way..... do you honestly think you'd get a word in edgeways if she was in control? It would be her way or no way..... people who seemingly have all the answers are the most dangerous types of people.

As I say, I am not a political type but can clearly see through the Smokescreen that is Nicola Sturgeon and she is a trouble maker who will do anything she can to further her own goals..... she will even BEG the EU to remain part of the bandwagon whilst claiming to the Scottish population that "independence" is good for Scotland.

Scottish people are NOT stupid but Nicola obviously thinks they are......... she is as transparent as cling film and anybody who thinks she is doing the UK or Scotland any good needs to get their hearing checked out ;)

Rheghead
26-Jun-16, 21:20
There has been a lot of talk online about some sort of vote at Holyrood to allow the brexit vote to apply to Scottish law. Technically Scotland could veto Brexit. But why? That would be like the tail wagging the dog as it was a UK vote, we are 5 million they are 60 million.

But why? Westminster could get all bitchy about it and block the indyref2 in that case. I say there doesn't need to be a high stakes poker game where the first one to blink loses, I say get the cards on the table, sit around the table and talk it through. Westminster and Holyrood could simultaneously draft legislation to make sure that both demands are passed through both houses one being dependent on the other. Everyone is happy then.

dc1
26-Jun-16, 21:29
very good post DSTOTM its spot on

DSTOTM
26-Jun-16, 21:46
Mr. Spock....... I agree with you BUT this is not a Scottish / English thing..... it's a UK thang!

Scotland, Wales, NI and England!

Why "Westminster and Holyrood"? (England and Scotland) what about the Welsh and Northern irish people too?

There is definitely anti English sentiment / racism in all your posts.

DSTOTM
26-Jun-16, 21:48
They are 60 million

And your point is?

Rheghead
26-Jun-16, 21:49
There is definitely anti English sentiment / racism in all your posts.

I am English you idiot.

DSTOTM
26-Jun-16, 21:55
Can you also define "they"? What are they exactly? Your enemy?

I have done a bit of research and you are English.

DSTOTM
26-Jun-16, 22:02
I am English you idiot.


I am Scottish and I am not an idiot but thanks for confirming your non racist, non divisive, non insulting, all inclusive stance on Scottish politics.

It has been a real learning curve.

tonkatojo
26-Jun-16, 22:15
The SNP can be pro-EU and anti-England.

Seems simple enough.


Can be is a bit of an understatement.

DSTOTM
26-Jun-16, 22:20
Can be is a bit of an understatement.

A massive understatement....... Some Scots hate the English with a passion ;) I put it down to their inability to kick a ball with their feet ;)

RWB
26-Jun-16, 22:51
A massive understatement....... Some Scots hate the English with a passion ;) I put it down to their inability to kick a ball with their feet ;)

nice analogy, cos of course if you kick a ball with your feet you'll end up on your arse .... just about sums the situation up

DSTOTM
26-Jun-16, 23:18
nice analogy, cos of course if you kick a ball with your feet you'll end up on your arse .... just about sums the situation up

let's be politically correct and call it "tits up"

DSTOTM
28-Jun-16, 22:02
nice analogy, cos of course if you kick a ball with your feet you'll end up on your arse .... just about sums the situation up

Having looked in this in more depth it depends on the ball you are kicking. If it's a standard football you could possibly end up on your arse, if it's a stainless steel ball you would break your toes kicking it and if it were a standard football filled with gelignite it would explode when you kicked it and you would possibly be blown to pieces........

I find it safe to kick balloons and always jump with shock when one goes "pop"........ you just cannot beat the good old fashioned balloon for all round fun ;)

roshep
29-Jun-16, 17:02
The facts are Referendum on independence between Scotland and the UK 55 to 45 vote NO.
Referendum on the UK and the EU the result on the vote is LEAVE.
Both polls democratically held and legally conducted and both results should be respected

Rheghead
03-Jul-16, 18:10
The facts are Referendum on independence between Scotland and the UK 55 to 45 vote NO.
Referendum on the UK and the EU the result on the vote is LEAVE.
Both polls democratically held and legally conducted and both results should be respected

You can say that but I take a different viewpoint.

I do not respect either outcome because I compare an election debate to a scientific process where each claim and counter claim has to be scutinise and judged upon based upon the available evidence and reason. The No and Leave campaigns were creating dishonesty on an industrial scale and they got the result that they wanted and now we are reaping the problems with those decisions. Bullshit in, bullshit out. you can believe what you want, but I do not believe in cold fusion, aromatherapy, ley lines and other mumbo jumbo and lies so I do not think Leave was gained through fair means and the No result either.

golach
03-Jul-16, 18:19
You can say that but I take a different viewpoint.

I do not respect either outcome because I compare an election debate to a scientific process where each claim and counter claim has to be scutinise and judged upon based upon the available evidence and reason. The No and Leave campaigns were creating dishonesty on an industrial scale and they got the result that they wanted and now we are reaping the problems with those decisions. Bullshit in, bullshit out. you can believe what you want, but I do not believe in cold fusion, aromatherapy, ley lines and other mumbo jumbo and lies so I do not think Leave was gained through fair means and the No result either.
No respect for both legal and democratic votes and results, I suspect that's a big case of sour grapes Rheg

DSTOTM
03-Jul-16, 20:15
You can say that but I take a different viewpoint.

I do not respect either outcome because I compare an election debate to a scientific process where each claim and counter claim has to be scutinise and judged upon based upon the available evidence and reason. The No and Leave campaigns were creating dishonesty on an industrial scale and they got the result that they wanted and now we are reaping the problems with those decisions. Bullshit in, bullshit out. you can believe what you want, but I do not believe in cold fusion, aromatherapy, ley lines and other mumbo jumbo and lies so I do not think Leave was gained through fair means and the No result either.

I agree with that, both sides were just talking pure nonsense but that's to be expected these days from a politician. They don't deal in facts and figures, they deal in farce and fiction, I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of any of their mouths. If what we were lead to believe (from both sides of the debate) was actually true then the result of the vote should be respected and upheld BUT it was all a pack of lies from both sides so I would like to see it deemed null and void. If we are to make a decision regarding the future of our country then we have to be party to the true facts and not be fed a load of "make it up as you go along" BS from people who have no other agenda but furthering their own seedy careers / feathering their own seedy nests.

Just look at the state of play now, nobody has a scooby what to do and they call it "uncharted waters".... that's a posh term for "we haven't got a clue where we are going or why we are going to where we don't know we may end up". It's an absolute disgrace that an entire nation has been allowed to vote only armed with lies and non facts to base their decision on. That entire referendum should be declared null and void as both the leave and remain "captains" didn't know one end of a ship from another....... the state of play at the moment? David Blunkett's guide dog may end up taking the helm...... I would trust a dog to get the fair ship UK back into calm waters than these liers and crooks who have weaseled their way onboard purporting to be able seamen.

A bunch of absolute cowboys who would be better selling double glazing than they are at running a country.

I'm sorry if my utter contempt with the current breed of politician offends some but I have to say it as I see it and I totally agree with you on this one Mister Spock.

rob murray
04-Jul-16, 10:17
I agree with that, both sides were just talking pure nonsense but that's to be expected these days from a politician. They don't deal in facts and figures, they deal in farce and fiction, I wouldn't believe a word that comes out of any of their mouths. If what we were lead to believe (from both sides of the debate) was actually true then the result of the vote should be respected and upheld BUT it was all a pack of lies from both sides so I would like to see it deemed null and void. If we are to make a decision regarding the future of our country then we have to be party to the true facts and not be fed a load of "make it up as you go along" BS from people who have no other agenda but furthering their own seedy careers / feathering their own seedy nests.

Just look at the state of play now, nobody has a scooby what to do and they call it "uncharted waters".... that's a posh term for "we haven't got a clue where we are going or why we are going to where we don't know we may end up". It's an absolute disgrace that an entire nation has been allowed to vote only armed with lies and non facts to base their decision on. That entire referendum should be declared null and void as both the leave and remain "captains" didn't know one end of a ship from another....... the state of play at the moment? David Blunkett's guide dog may end up taking the helm...... I would trust a dog to get the fair ship UK back into calm waters than these liers and crooks who have weaseled their way onboard purporting to be able seamen.

A bunch of absolute cowboys who would be better selling double glazing than they are at running a country.

I'm sorry if my utter contempt with the current breed of politician offends some but I have to say it as I see it and I totally agree with you on this one Mister Spock.


Here here, I wholly agree with you, the referendum and aftermath buried any credibility politicians had.