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fred
24-May-05, 07:11
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4573511.stm

The new edition of Lonely Planet has described John O'Groats as "a seedy tourist trap".

scotsboy
24-May-05, 07:14
Hard to disagree with that.

neepnipper
24-May-05, 08:03
I work in the 'seedy tourist trap' called John O' Groats and I'm annoyed at this description. The shops and other businesses there provide much needed seasonal employment, the views are fantastic and the people that visit are very diverse, from 'end to enders' raising money for charity, families, older folk on day trips and foreign visitors who may not come up as far as Caithness if it wasn't for John O' Groats.

What would people prefer, the craft and gift shops and friendly atmosphere or amusement arcades and yobs hanging around, now that would be seedy. [evil]

katarina
24-May-05, 09:00
On a visit to John O'Groats one lovely summer's day. I overheard one German tourist remark to another, ' I think John O'Groats is the most beautiful place on earth.'
I don't know if I'd go that far, but i do think to called it 'seedy' is grossly unfair. Who writes these things? The main thing that spoils it to my way of thinking is the hotel which is sadly falling into decay and what was once a beautiful and historic building is now an eyesore.

saffy100
24-May-05, 09:06
:roll: I have sent this email to "the lonely planet" regarding their comments, as whatever they think of the area i think their comments were out of order as i have worked there too and often visitors would comment how pleasant they found the area...they had expected a mass of arcades etc like Lands End but instead found a peacful place with lots to look at.

I wrote the following :

" I am refering to the recent news stories about John o'Groats , and would like to point out that while i worked in the tourist office there never once was anyone told that it was the most northernly point, in fact it was the misconception of the visitors and end to enders, They were always informed that Dunnet Head was the most northernly and that John o' Groats was the longest distance from Lands End...hence people travelling the road for charities and such like...so i would think that maybe the lonely Planet should have asked the questions of the locals before accusing them of giving incorrect information.
Incidently i am not a local...i am english so am also unbiased.

scotsboy
24-May-05, 09:08
I love going to Groats, but simply for the view across the firth.

The last time I was there was just before Christmas and the only places open were the woolen mill shop and the tacky souvenir shop at the end of the pier. Now I would have thought that there may have been a few bob to be made by Caithness Candles in the run up to Christmas, but it was shut.

If you are happy with what Groats provides then fair enough, me I tell people it is only worth going to in order to say you have been and for the view. There is nothing there to attract anyone, and what there is tends to be artificial and false. Is there anything there that could be considered “local”? I mean you may like tartan boxes of Edinburgh rock with a sticker highlighting it was purchased in GROATS, but not me. It is tacky.

Stormblast
24-May-05, 11:24
Sadly its true

no point complaining do something about it !

I was ere last year and the amount of people who were underwhelmed was unreal

sad but true and year after year this story gets trotted out and yet nothing happens

why???

squidge
24-May-05, 11:47
Well ther is somewhere to get a cup of tea - a few gift shops and i beleive a very good burger van currently under new management :D

What do you want to see there?

scotsboy
24-May-05, 12:24
I think just the scenery Squidge, the shops etc are just plastic.

moonshadow
24-May-05, 12:51
While I have to agree that at times the views from John O'Groats can be lovely, and you need to visit these places just so you can claim that you've been, there's not enough there to get people coming back and back again!!
The hotel there looks bleak at best, and the cluster of shops look very folorn. The cafe is okay, but the attatched shop's stock is a one big cliche! (nessie erasers....mugs with names on....tartan travel rugs, and of course whisky and shortbread!)
It could be so much more there....Have the hotel sponsor and host an event...brighten up the shop exteriors..encourage fishing trips....anything to get the punters in, give them a good time and then they'll want to come back!!!
It's such a shame that such a lovely spot isn't being presented to it's full potential!!
If it were a school report, it would read:~ C+...could do better!

Margaret M.
24-May-05, 15:15
Although nothing there but a beautiful view would be lovely, most tourists want more than just a great view. Personally I would like to see something like the Scottish shops in Beauly -- a great selection of nice quality Scottish goods with the emphasis on Caithness products. There is an abundance of talented people in Caithness, having a collection of their art, photography, crafts, baked goods, etc., for sale in one place would be a tourist attraction in itself. An excellent restaurant and a nice hotel would be a great addition too -- I would love to see the hotel there restored to its original condition.

loobyloo
24-May-05, 16:52
Whatever happened to the seal rescue centre that they talked about building at Groats? It was supposed to be in conjunction with the hotel but I don't remember what was the comeuppance. That would have been a fantastic tourist attraction.

~~Tides~~
24-May-05, 18:22
I have to agree with the article, looking through the eyes of a tourist. It must be a huge dissapointment to come over e Warth hill. I mean you think you have reached the end of the country and then see all of Orkney.

Viva Diva
24-May-05, 20:25
I think to call John O'Groats seedy is quite simply wrong. It may not hold much excitement for us locals but I quite believe that the majority of visitors especially those from abroad would be quite impressed with the views.
The gift shops may carry some stock which could be described as tacky or whatever but it's what you can expect of any such landmark in the whole country these days. That includes over the border. When I read the title of this thread I couldn't believe it because usually the context of that word would hold a very different meaning than 'tacky' if that is what was meant by the writers of the source.
IMHO people who bother to come all the way up here are here for the views and sights that can be seen and if they stop to buy a stick of rock and a keyring for their friends while they're here then all the better for the local economy.
:D

neepnipper
24-May-05, 22:00
I am sooooo angry!

Today at work in John O'Groats I asked loads of customers what they thought of their visit and EVERY ONE of them said they loved John O'Groats, they said the views were fantastic, the shops were what they expected and not tacky and the whole place had a friendly atmosphere. They said they would recommend a visit to family and friends and would return again.

There are lovely walks along the beach (looking out for Groatie Buckies), interesting shops, wildlife trips on the fast boat or ferry, a free museum and loads of free parking.

I wonder what this guide says about Lands End? :eek:

champagnebaby
24-May-05, 22:50
Well if the report was done by someone English no doubt it will be biased and highly recommend Lands End

neepnipper
25-May-05, 07:58
I think saying that if the guide is by someone english it will be biased towards Lands End is a rather shallow comment.

saffy100
25-May-05, 08:42
I spoke to someone who planned the seal / wildlife thing and was told that the council were charging extortionate prices for land rental, they also tried in Castletown , it was going to have all tanks with local sealife in etc but it was the same story there so i believe they went down south......seems the council does'nt want attractions.....too many backhanders and not enough loyalty to the area......it seems to be WHO you know not what you know up here.

daviddd
25-May-05, 09:26
Well ther is somewhere to get a cup of tea - a few gift shops and i beleive a very good burger van currently under new management :D

What do you want to see there?I think the cafe is very poor - 2nd class cup of coffee, no windows to see the cdecidedly attractive view, feels like you're sitting in a corridor somewhere. The whole complex needs bringing into the 20th century - howz about a development like the Shin Falls Centre? There's easily more visitors to JOG than there used to be at Shin. Needs some local businessman to have a bit of insight and give it a go. :eek:

neepnipper
25-May-05, 09:48
The coffee in the cafe has recently changed, they now sell Costa coffee which is a great deal better than what was for sale in there. It's an old building so alterations to make it lighter with larger windows would be difficult although Edinburgh Woollen Mill who own the shop and cafe are considering adding a conservatory to it with extra seating which would improve it and make it lighter. Having worked in there I agree that it is very dark.

Alananders68
25-May-05, 10:55
I am sooooo angry!

Today at work in John O'Groats I asked loads of customers what they thought of their visit and EVERY ONE of them said they loved John O'Groats, they said the views were fantastic, the shops were what they expected and not tacky and the whole place had a friendly atmosphere. They said they would recommend a visit to family and friends and would return again.

There are lovely walks along the beach (looking out for Groatie Buckies), interesting shops, wildlife trips on the fast boat or ferry, a free museum and loads of free parking.

I wonder what this guide says about Lands End?

What people will say to your face is not what they will say from a distance, just like forums LOL. Do you really think that if tourists disliked the place they would say so openly to staff working there :confused . There true opinions will be told to their friends when they get home and that is why visitors to John O'Groats has been falling over the years.

Groats is a dump, apart from the views and being able to say you've been there there is nothing. The cafe has no windows as someone else pointed out, what a miserable sit down that is to be charged extortionate prices. The hotel has been neglected for many years, the caravan park/site is not used to it's potential, the ferry over to Orkney is wildly over priced, the staff in the shops are as miserable as sin and half the time it's only the cafe and pier shop that's open etc. etc.

It's John O'Groats and what can people buy? Souveniers with the Loch Ness monster on and Edinburgh Rock :lol: :lol: :lol:

The fact is that numbers of visitors is declining, of those that do visit most are just passing through to Orkney and don't spend more than a few minutes in Groats and of the rest they find there is little in Groats to keep them for long. Who do you blame for this? Personally I blame the idiots at CASE who throw money to certain companies that don't need it just so as they can get backhanders and falsify statistics whilst totally neglecting the areas that need investment. Groats is a landmark and the main attraction for visitors heading up this far, it should be recieving more attention. Okay you don't want it to become like all the English holiday spots choc-a-bloc with arcades, it has to retain it's uniqueness, but you also have to make it more attractive and increase the attractions/facilities to keep visitors there longer.

neepnipper
25-May-05, 11:45
I take exception to the fact that you think that I am naive enough not to see when people are telling me the truth.

The prices in the cafe are not any dearer than any other cafe situated in a tourist destination, the food is freshly prepared and the place although dark has character and a friendly atmosphere. The manager of the shop has worked there over 30 years and you couldn't meet a friendlier lady, always a smile and a chat to the customers, I am definitely not miserable nor are any of the staff that work in the shop where I work, we always have a smile and a friendly greeting for people.

Some people just like to see the down side to everything. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement but making insulting remarks about people and places does nothing to help. [evil]

daviddd
25-May-05, 12:00
Many of the people who visit JOG have probably been all over the country and would expect better - olde worlde charm can be attractive, but I don't think that's what JOG has got. It just seems to me like a fleecing station - somewhere to extract as much money as possible from the tourists without giving too much back. What is there to do there apart from spend money and gaze at the Firth (which you can do from lots of other nicer places). Not even a play park for the kids! The beach is hardly attractive either I'm afraid. Some visitors still think it's the most northely point too, a myth that is almost completely debunked now so JOG can't rely on that.

This sounds terribly negative, and I don't for one minute doubt the genuineness of the people whoi work there - well done to all those who are really making an effort - but investment is needed, or the place may just die all together.

Penny
25-May-05, 12:21
Neepnipper said:-

The prices in the cafe are not any dearer than any other cafe situated in a tourist destination, the food is freshly prepared and the place although dark has character and a friendly atmosphere. The manager of the shop has worked there over 30 years and you couldn't meet a friendlier lady, always a smile and a chat to the customers, I am definitely not miserable nor are any of the staff that work in the shop where I work, we always have a smile and a friendly greeting for people.

I agree with all of this but the cafe urgently needs upgrading, all that old furniture (and benches with no backs!) crammed into too small a space. I was there only last week and there was only one toilet working and although it was reasonably clean it is so old and rough looking. They also need to get a decent extractor fan fitted, when I came out of that place I just reeked of the soup that they were preparing for later. Not a very good impression to give - it's little things like this that make all the difference.

Alananders68
25-May-05, 13:11
The prices in the cafe are not any dearer than any other cafe situated in a tourist destination,
You would say that, don't local workers get a discount :roll:


the food is freshly prepared and the place although dark has character and a friendly atmosphere.
Friendly atmosphere :eek: never heard anyone say that about the cafe, sorry. As for fresh food, that may be true but the choice isn't good and the prices no matter what you say are excessive.


The manager of the shop has worked there over 30 years and you couldn't meet a friendlier lady,
Agreed :)


I am definitely not miserable nor are any of the staff that work in the shop where I work, we always have a smile and a friendly greeting for people.
I never said you weren't, you could well be, I was generalising based on what I've witnessed on the occassions I've been to Groats and from what others have said on there visits to Groats, the staff in the wooden pier shop are worst.

caithnessgirl
25-May-05, 15:26
Ok, maybe JOG isn't THE most exciting place in the world, but who from Caithness can slag it? Its a good thing at least it brings tourists and holidaymakers up. More than can be said for Wick.... [disgust]

daviddd
25-May-05, 16:59
Ok, maybe JOG isn't THE most exciting place in the world, but who from Caithness can slag it? Its a good thing at least it brings tourists and holidaymakers up. More than can be said for Wick.... [disgust]I think this is a bit unfair on Wick - the place seems to be to becoming more vibrant lately - markets, Wetherspoons, new shops in the offing, I prefer a walk round Wick rather than Thurso anyway, it's quite a boring place. :roll:

Rheghead
25-May-05, 17:40
Neepnipper said:-

The prices in the cafe are not any dearer than any other cafe situated in a tourist destination, the food is freshly prepared and the place although dark has character and a friendly atmosphere. The manager of the shop has worked there over 30 years and you couldn't meet a friendlier lady, always a smile and a chat to the customers, I am definitely not miserable nor are any of the staff that work in the shop where I work, we always have a smile and a friendly greeting for people.

I agree with all of this but the cafe urgently needs upgrading, all that old furniture (and benches with no backs!) crammed into too small a space. I was there only last week and there was only one toilet working and although it was reasonably clean it is so old and rough looking. They also need to get a decent extractor fan fitted, when I came out of that place I just reeked of the soup that they were preparing for later. Not a very good impression to give - it's little things like this that make all the difference.

I agree with the comments about the cafe. Last august i took my parents in there for a meal. The place was busy so we just managed to get the table round the back. The place was a mess, I am no food inspector but I have worked in a cafe myself and they need to be careful on how they store food that is waiting to be eaten.

KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
25-May-05, 18:30
have to stick up for Groats, its a magic place to live or be brought up - so glad my folks out that way and not dumps like Castletown or Wick or even Thursa

neepnipper
25-May-05, 18:32
Just for the record local workers do not get discount in the cafe.

Get your facts right before you comment.

~~Tides~~
25-May-05, 19:02
You know what I think we need? A tourist board that can do its job properly. JOG is just neglected by the tourist board. Shutting the most used tourist office in the region??!

Rheghead
25-May-05, 19:12
No tides, what we need is a better attitude to tourism imparticular the tourists themselves. I have lost count the number of times that I have heard the locals refer to them by something derogatory, including rubber-neckers and touroids. These people have taken the time to visit our area so we should reciprocate by being enthusiastic about their business. Only the other day I was in a bar and a tourist complained about her steak being under done, behind her back and to me the barman said 'bloomin tourist!'.

When we get a change in attitude then over time we will get more visitors wanting to return here rather than shaking their only visit off as a one-off.

~~Tides~~
25-May-05, 19:14
Yeah, well that as well. But it would help a tad if we had a tourist board.

scorrie
25-May-05, 19:21
have to stick up for Groats, its a magic place to live or be brought up - so glad my folks out that way and not dumps like Castletown or Wick or even Thursa

Ah, who needs Lonely Planet to run the county down when we can do it ourselves? Sure the places you quote are not the world's elite tourist attractions but there is an upside and a downside to almost everywhere in the world. If Wick and Thurso are dumps, as you state, they are still like Paris when compared to Groats.

Some people need to shut the truck up and stop yodelling out of their Rodney!!

neepnipper
25-May-05, 20:09
OK - Question: If you are not happy with what's at JOG what would you like to see there? :roll:

daviddd
25-May-05, 20:59
have to stick up for Groats, its a magic place to live or be brought up - so glad my folks out that way and not dumps like Castletown or Wick or even Thursaunderstandable response, but seema like :roll: nostalgia with little to do with reality!

daviddd
25-May-05, 21:03
OK - Question: If you are not happy with what's at JOG what would you like to see there? :roll:a decent cafe, kids playground, a nice garden, places to sit in comfort, a few shelters, a proper walk along the shore with disabled access, more pleasant locals by the sound of it, a shop selling local crafts etc - anyone else?

Naefearjustbeer
25-May-05, 22:22
Things you can do and spend a bit of time looking round without having to spend cash. Once you have looked at the view and looked in the shops what else is there, Last time I am sure I had to pay for a pee! Not impressed. We have taken Canadian and Irish friends out to John O Groats as part of a Caithness tour but it was not one of the highlights of the trip. A nice walkway all the way round the the stacks at duncansby would be nice, I always maintained Caithness should have a coastal path set up, Along the lines of the West Highland Way or Speyside Way. We have an amazing coastline and variety of wildlife that people would love to see. We dont want them going home with a crappy postcard and tea towel thinking thats the best caithness can offer before they hop on the ferry to orkney for an amazing tour of the sights. How many times do you see leaflets for Orkney sights and activities in Caithness hotels!! It is stupid Orkney markets itself well enough without us encouraging the tourists to go over. We should be trying our best to keep them on this side of the firth for longer. No offense to Orkney as it is a lovely place with very friendly people and a laid back attitude to things. But we do have to look after ourselves aswell.

edit I have always found the locals in groats friendly and have enjoyed many a night in the seaview.

Alananders68
25-May-05, 23:39
OK - Question: If you are not happy with what's at JOG what would you like to see there? :roll:
First off you need to make it more family orientated, shops, museum and nice views don't impress kids so like someone suggested a small play area would be good and although no-one would want Groats to become another holiday spot full of arcades surely one wouldn't hurt.

Next up, the hotel needs to be sorted out and so does the caravan site (perhaps a few chalets??). With Duncansby and Dunnet beaches nearby it shouldn't be too difficult to get families to stop for a while if the facilities existed and it was promoted well enough.

A decent cafe (with windows and a good choice of food :D ).

Get rid of the eyesores, I can't remember if it's still there but Walter had foundations for a building that never got finished, if that's still there it needs sorting out.

A coastal path as someone else suggested is another good idea, as is perhaps a hire shop where visitors could hire various items such as say bikes, binoculars etc.

How about a more realistic priced ferry service, we were going to go to Orkney last year but the price for the day trip was over £50 each so we didn't bother.

More local products in the shops, Loch Ness monsters etc. have nothing to do with Groats or Caithness.

More pleasant staff and locals, a smile doesn't hurt and neither does making an effort on appearances, last time I was in Groats the shop staff looked like tinks, the only exception was the Frippery lady.

ALL the shops to be open, it's no good when tourists arrive and nothing is open.

How does it all happen? Well okay it's going to be difficult to encourage people to invest in an are that has been in decline but if CASE can pump silly sums into business that don't need or shouldn't get it, then why can't they support the smaller man to get started :confused .

neepnipper
26-May-05, 08:04
I think Alananders68 has a real problem with JOG, once again making unhelpful comments ( a few intelligent ones as well, to be fair).

I really don't know why you are so persistant in putting down the people who work in JOG.

The staff in the Edinburgh Woollen Mill and cafe wear uniforms, where I work we have to wear smart clothes and I have not seen anyone who looks like a 'tink' as you so descriptively put it.

You say an amusement arcade would be good, in what way does that promote Caithness?

Having cheaper fairs to Orkney, surely that is sending people out of JOG not encouraging them to spend time there.

I agree a kiddies play area would be good, tidy up the hotel (it would make a great conference centre or antiques and craft centre) and make a proper coastal path.

Any more ideas? Can we actively do anything to improve JOG?

:roll:

katarina
26-May-05, 11:16
If I could chose to live anywhere I wanted in Caithness, I would chose JOG. Unfortunately my family want to stay in town.
Some things do need upgrading - but i still love the place.

KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
26-May-05, 22:06
have to stick up for Groats, its a magic place to live or be brought up - so glad my folks out that way and not dumps like Castletown or Wick or even Thursaunderstandable response, but seema like :roll: nostalgia with little to do with reality!

eh hardly nostalgic im only 21!!


as for scorries - should get the air gun out!

KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
26-May-05, 22:09
OK - Question: If you are not happy with what's at JOG what would you like to see there? :roll:


More pleasant staff and locals, a smile doesn't hurt and neither does making an effort on appearances, last time I was in Groats the shop staff looked like tinks, the only exception was the Frippery lady.

.

wowowow do you not think that is a little harsh ? in which shop exactly did the staff look like tinks? i don;t work , nor am i related to anyone that works in a shop in Groats but I don know them and that is way out of line.

neepnipper
27-May-05, 07:53
Thanks for that Keep on Truckin' ( I DO work in JOG and do not dress like a 'tink'!!) :confused

KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
27-May-05, 09:07
no worries neepnipper, my ebayer friend,

did you like your broch ?

Setanta
27-May-05, 13:07
On a visit to John O'Groats one lovely summer's day. I overheard one German tourist remark to another, ' I think John O'Groats is the most beautiful place on earth.'
.

Just wondering why two German tourist would talk to each other in English, maybe you were dreaming :lol:

Setanta
27-May-05, 13:10
OK - Question: If you are not happy with what's at JOG what would you like to see there? :roll:


More pleasant staff and locals, a smile doesn't hurt and neither does making an effort on appearances, last time I was in Groats the shop staff looked like tinks, the only exception was the Frippery lady.

.

wowowow do you not think that is a little harsh ? in which shop exactly did the staff look like tinks? i don;t work , nor am i related to anyone that works in a shop in Groats but I don know them and that is way out of line.

I am sorry but I have to totally (oh God) agree with Alan. That was really a sour and uncalled for remark as well as untrue. Maybe you were refering to the workshops?

KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
27-May-05, 13:30
wow? wait im confused? - alan said the people in the shop looked like tinks- you agree with that ?

or do you think it was me that made the uncalled for remark? what was that ? im sticking up for groats

Setanta
27-May-05, 13:42
wow? wait im confused? - alan said the people in the shop looked like tinks- you agree with that ?

or do you think it was me that made the uncalled for remark? what was that ? im sticking up for groats

Opps knew something was terrible wrong when I agreed with him :roll:
Sorry T Im with you on this point :confused

KEEP_ON_TRUCKIN
27-May-05, 13:59
aye thanks- thought u got me wrong there!

neep___docker
02-Jun-05, 23:41
Personally I blame the idiots at CASE who throw money to certain companies that don't need it just so as they can get backhanders and falsify statistics whilst totally neglecting the areas that need investment. Groats is a landmark and the main attraction for visitors heading up this far, it should be recieving more attention.


Spot on, ma man !

John O'Groats should be THE focal point for tourism on the mainland north of Inverness.

People all over the UK and abroad go there, because it is where it is. It sells itself to a degree. Visitors mostly have no clue what's going to be there when they get there, in the same way that we all have heard of Land's End, but most of us don't know what's there. But you'll go anyway.

But guaranteed that many of them will not see all the great things that the area does and could offer. And we'll be lucky if they spend more than 4 hours in the entire county. John O'Groats is a brand - but it isn't managed as one.

It doesn't take a genius to create a quality proposition and experience based on John O'Groats that could provide much greater spin-off benefit for the entire north of Scotland.

It needn't be real tacky, like a Blackpool. It needn't be faux tacky like the Falls of Shin. It should be about optimising the experience for the visitor and the benefit for the regional economy without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

For example, simple things - the powers that be, should either have stepped in a long time ago and purchased the hotel, or at least stuck a rocket up the bottom of the multi-millionaire who owns it. He only owns as a means of avoiding paying tax. The Council should slap a reparations order on him. His excuse all along is that he won't develop the hotel until CASE give him a grant. If that is the case, then the public sector should back off completely and let someone with money, vision and credibility take control.

The previous messenger's comment on the Seal Rescue Centre concept being bombed out the area because the Council rents are too high, is just typical of the piecemeal, hamfisted and bureaucratic incompetents - they wield power because they are in their job, not because they can do their job right.

I'm sure that the businesses who are there are in the main trying their best.

John O'Groats tourism is another example of the county, and indeed the whole Highlands, being stifled by the corporate greed of a powerful individual on the one hand, and the toothless and visionless public sector on the other.

Margaret M.
03-Jun-05, 02:31
Neep, why don't you run for office?

neep___docker
03-Jun-05, 08:59
Neep, why don't you run for office?

Would you vote for me ?

lasher
05-Jun-05, 04:12
neep___docker,
you talk a lot of sense mate!
You seem to have your head srewed on, unlike a lot of other people on here!

katarina
05-Jun-05, 20:19
I'd vote for the neep - docker too!

garycs
05-Jun-05, 21:03
I actually quite like JOG, yes it could do with a little investment but private money will only arrive if the council improves the area; play parks, benches or picnic tables under shelter, an exhibition about Caithness and the Pentland Firth in general (after all JOG is the focal point of many visits to Caithness). Once you have visitors spending a few hours at JOG private investment can expand on it.

The hotel however is an embarrassment, I doubt there is a legal way in which the council could force it to be improved :(

Lands End is no different from JOG, but instead of Nessies and shortbread all the shops sell clotted cream and pixies; weather's usually as miserable but when it does clear the views aren't a patch on those at JOG :D