View Full Version : Religion....
John Little
14-Dec-15, 22:37
never killed anyone.
Not a single human being has ever died from Religion.
Even though I am an atheist I am certain of this.
Better be careful John, from forum 'rules': 'It should also be taken into consideration that certain topics like football or religion can very easily be misread and cause offence, so great care should be taken when dealing with these types of issues.'
Anyway, what about the Heaven's Gate mob?:confused
Better be careful John, from forum 'rules': 'It should also be taken into consideration that certain topics like football or religion can very easily be misread and cause offence, so great care should be taken when dealing with these types of issues.'
Anyway, what about the Heaven's Gate mob?:confused
totaly agree Bekisman, we don't want those subjects raised on the Org
never killed anyone.
Not a single human being has ever died from Religion.
Even though I am an atheist I am certain of this.
Very true... In the same way that not a single human being has ever been killed by a gun...
very wrong to say that john little, its religion, and greed thats killing the world, nothing else.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 08:00
totaly agree Bekisman, we don't want those subjects raised on the Orgl
"We" don't?
wow.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 08:01
very wrong to say that john little, its religion, and greed thats killing the world, nothing else.
Ideas kill?
John Little
15-Dec-15, 08:03
Very true... In the same way that not a single human being has ever been killed by a gun...
That is also true.
However, guns are human artefacts and we can control them in the face of the nutters among us.
We cannot do that with ideas.
Ideas cannot kill people. It's humans with ideas, often using guns.
Ideas cannot kill people. It's humans with ideas, often using guns.
So by that argument, Religion is a human idea that is used to justify killing people with guns...
Does it then not make sense to remove such ideas?
Not an easy task but a good starting point would be to stop indoctrinating children in such ideas & remove these ideas from the running of the state.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 10:19
Oh I agree with that- as in the States- religion is a personal matter and one for parents and family.
You cannot remove ideas as you can with guns. At the end of the last war Europe was full of guns in the hands of all sorts of people; yet all the countries of Western Europe and certainly Communist Europe enacted gun control. You can legislate for inanimate objects.
But not for ideas.
I'm not sure we should think of legislating on ideas.
Then you start telling people what ideas they can and cannot talk about.
A gun is a lump of metal with bits and bullets. It;s designed to kill- but it does not pull its own trigger.
Oh I agree with that- as in the States- religion is a personal matter and one for parents and family....
No it's not. It is meant to be under the constitution but it creeps into many aspects of life, from teaching creationism as a science to constant mentioning of God in all sorts of places, including their pledge of allegiance... "one Nation under God"...
...I'm not sure we should think of legislating on ideas.
Then you start telling people what ideas they can and cannot talk about...
No, you can't tell people what to think, but you can legislate over the dissemination of ideas, we already do, sexism, racism, white supremacy... etc...
...A gun is a lump of metal with bits and bullets. It;s designed to kill- but it does not pull its own trigger.
A book of religion is a lump of paper covered in words. It's designed to make you feel right whilst everybody else is wrong, it helps to dehumanize the unbeliever making it easier to pull the trigger by giving justification to the act.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 12:34
Point one - you are right - but it should not.
Point two - I concede. You are quite correct in that there are ideas that are outside social morality and we do legislate against them. It is society at different times in History that decides what is acceptable or permissible or not.
Point three I do not agree. Religion is concepts and ideas. They may be written in a book. You could then smash someone's head in with the book but it would not be the book that killed them but the person using the book as a tool. They could just as well use a stone or a knife or a club.
The weapon does not kill- human will and bloodlust kills. You may kill someone with a ballpoint but it is harder than with a gun.
A gun is specifically designed to kill. To avoid its misuse by the small percentage of nut-cases in the world it is sensible to limit their supply by law. We do not really, or should not, desire to live in a society where it is necessary to go armed. This is why gentlemen do not carry swords and fight duel any more.
Society sets the rules. Human desire kills. It makes sense to limit the instruments of easy killing.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.
....................................
Most people with guns do not go out & kill...
Is takes a "nutter" (as you put it) to actually go out & kill..
Human empathy is a strong force that binds us all together as a species that prevents the world turning into a bloodbath...
To get around this problem of empathy then religion is one of the most powerful tools out there (though not the only one, many other forms of propaganda also work), by dehuminizing the "unbeliever" you are effectivle bypassing the empathy circuitry of the brain & killing an unbeliever is no different than stepping on a cockroach.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 15:17
Then you may call it what you wish - for religion is only a label.
If people go out and kill in the name of an ideology then it does not have to be religion but an idea like Nazism or Communism.
Arguably you could say that those are quasi religions.
It is rather then not the idea that kills but the action which rises out of the idea?
Religion is not a label (though the differnt forms could be described as labels (Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc...)), it is a belief in the unprovable & highly unlikely, what you do with that belief could be described as an ideology.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 16:07
That's interesting.
So an ideology is formed out of belief; and that of course explains sects and denominations too.
So in speaking of what motivates people to do bad things or to kill people, we are not really looking at religion but interpretation/ misinterpretation of religion.
Which is done by humans for a variety of reasons.
So it is not the idea of religion that kills but what humans choose to do with it?
So, going full circle we're back to...
It's not guns that kill but what humans choose to do with them...
Janmac101
15-Dec-15, 16:40
Perhaps....To each his/her own decision.
[People generally must believe in something....
e.g. Alcoholics Anon and
The Masonic Lodge to name two.
If we do not believe then we do not do our best. It brings success
John Little
15-Dec-15, 16:43
So, going full circle we're back to...
It's not guns that kill but what humans choose to do with them...
Indeed yes.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 16:44
Perhaps....To each his/her own decision.
[People generally must believe in something....
e.g. Alcoholics Anon and
The Masonic Lodge to name two.
If we do not believe then we do not do our best. It brings success
You are right - as an atheist though I would have to think that it is better to believe in ourselves.
You are right - as an atheist though I would have to think that it is better to believe in ourselves.
what if atheists have got it all wrong? I think they may have.
what if atheists have got it all wrong? I think they may have.
And there's the smoking gun. It's not so much me who is right but its you who is wrong.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 20:20
And there's the smoking gun. It's not so much me who is right but its you who is wrong.
You are a very wise man Gleeber.
That is exactly why I prefaced my remark. I don't tell people what to believe.
I'm interested - but it's their business, not mine.
No, religion never killed anyone. It's the people who think that their imaginary god is superior to everyone else's imaginary god that kill people. So, per se, religion does kill, or is the root cause. I also wonder about the motive for the original post.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 22:09
No, religion never killed anyone. It's the people who think that their imaginary god is superior to everyone else's imaginary god that kill people. So, per se, religion does kill, or is the root cause. I also wonder about the motive for the original post.
One is cause.
The other is effect.
Of itself, per se, religion does not kill.
I agree with what you say about people and their imaginary god- it is what people do with ideas that causes them to kill. But not the idea itself. Human choice is what does it.
The motive of the original post is discussion.
The Org has been a good place to discuss things.
A good place to toss your thoughts amongst other people.
There is no compulsion to do it though and no-one is forcing you to.
One is cause.
The other is effect.
Of itself, per se, religion does not kill.
I agree with what you say about people and their imaginary god- it is what people do with ideas that causes them to kill. But not the idea itself. Human choice is what does it.
The motive of the original post is discussion.
The Org has been a good place to discuss things.
A good place to toss your thoughts amongst other people.
There is no compulsion to do it though and no-one is forcing you to.
Don't patronise me.
You may be popular on here with some, but you spam the place with posts irrelevant to the area, and come across as some sort of pseudo intellectual, who hardly ever comes near the place. Religion, whether cause OR effect, kills. I will not be reading or replying to any further posts of yours. If your wife lets you post, that is.
John Little
15-Dec-15, 22:37
Don't patronise me.
You may be popular on here with some, but you spam the place with posts irrelevant to the area, and come across as some sort of pseudo intellectual, who hardly ever comes near the place. Religion, whether cause OR effect, kills. I will not be reading or replying to any further posts of yours. If your wife lets you post, that is.
Oh dear. What a pity.
You gave an opinion. I answered it.
You questioned the motive.
I gave the motive.
Goodbye then :)
You are a very wise man Gleeber.
That is exactly why I prefaced my remark. I don't tell people what to believe.
I'm interested - but it's their business, not mine.
Someone once called me the stupidist wisest so and so he had ever met. I took it as a compliment. It keeps my feet on the ground and my head in the clouds.:lol:
I would say well done John Little for trying to take the org off its knees. This was the bread and butter stuff I grew up with on the org. It was exciting and it was new. Most of us never had the chance to air views like this before the internet came along. It all ended painfully though.
I've grown to respect religion. Imagination in the realms of the mind is as real as a slap on the side of the head. If imagination is used to improve our lives its as beneficial to the human spirit as watching the stars and just as real.
Don't patronise me.
You may be popular on here with some, but you spam the place with posts irrelevant to the area, and come across as some sort of pseudo intellectual, who hardly ever comes near the place. Religion, whether cause OR effect, kills. I will not be reading or replying to any further posts of yours. If your wife lets you post, that is.
Hey, thought John has just written a book about his life up here? or am I missing something!
John Little
15-Dec-15, 23:24
Damn! If I could give that rep Gleeber then I would.
i used once to live in Caithness many many years ago. I return occasionally.
i found it had something unique. A community forum which talked about everything.
Absolutely everything.
i have never seen anything like it. If my mind was trying to sort something out all I had to do was ask a few questions on here and all the aspects of everything would come out.
its not a challenge. Not a rumble. It's discussion and argument.
i like discussion and argument.
in the last few days, even though I have seen many topics posted, i have been told what I should not be posting by more than one. When thought police take over, a forum is in trouble.
dont think too much.
dont write too much.
dont.... In case you look clever even if you ain't.
i also respect religion though I am not religious. Those last two sentences of yours are just brilliant and if I take anything away from this souring thread it will be those word because they lift me.
Thank you.
John Little
16-Dec-15, 08:34
Lol!
Careful Golach.
Folk might think yer a grumpy old man.
i suggest you read that post again.
:)
Niall Fernie
16-Dec-15, 20:06
to get the rep that Gleeber has, you have to be respected, by the members of the Org, which in MHO you have not
Just to point out, judging by the green reputation marks John has the same level of reputation as gleeber.
Just to point out, judging by the green reputation marks John has the same level of reputation as gleeber.
in that case I apologise , and have deleted my post
Just to point out, judging by the green reputation marks John has the same level of reputation as gleeber.
I was peeved my name was mentioned and when I saw it at 7 o clock this morning I pmd John Little and offered him my support. He seemed to be ok with it when he responded but when I logged on later in the day I saw his post. I wondered if something else had happened during the course of the day and I missed it?
He took some stick and didn't deserve it. At least I didn't think so. There's the problem with forums. Facebooks worse. Some of the comments on facebook are horrendous and nasty but I'm sure if you met the people in real life they would be ordinary people just like you and me. Maybe I wouldn't want to be around them too long but you know what I mean.
Maybe John would come back and we could discuss it? He has plenty support and it could be interesting.
He certainly got me thinking with his posts and well done to Beks for his encouragement.
Surely it's not only what humans do with guns but with ideology, faith and superstition.
In my humble opinion, it is the perversion of faiths that causes the problem- and it always has done, so far as I can see but that does not make religion wrong and something that needs to be 'abolished'. All the latter leads to is more (usually state) persecution of people of faith which is just as wrong as any other form of persecution.
If I followed a religion, what benefit would I get from it?
If I followed a religion, what benefit would I get from it?
A blinking good question Rheggy - I seemed to have managed without it for 70+ years, led a reasonably good life, helped people, don't hurt 'em.. always thought that a religion is not necessary to lead a good life, hopefully personal conscious, life's lessons and personal experience would give 'enough'?
If I followed a religion, what benefit would I get from it?
There are chicks in churches.
If I followed a religion, what benefit would I get from it?
You get to go to Heaven when you die...
If you pick the right religion & take part in the rewards scheme you gould even get yourself 40 virgins when you arrive there.
You get to go to Heaven when you die...
If you pick the right religion & take part in the rewards scheme you gould even get yourself 40 virgins when you arrive there.
Yeah but there is no Heaven so what is the point of following a religion?
Yeah but there is no Heaven so what is the point of following a religion?
If you think there's no Heaven, you're not following a religion.
If you think there's no Heaven, you're not following a religion.
I would follow a religion if there was a Heaven.
I would follow a religion if there was a Heaven.
Once you think there's a Heaven, you'll be devoutly following a religion.
Once you think there's a Heaven, you'll be devoutly following a religion.
How can I be convinced that there is a Heaven then?
linnie612
20-Dec-15, 15:32
How can I be convinced that there is a Heaven then?
By dogmatically believing your religion of choice, when they dangle the carrot that is 'Heaven'.
By dogmatically believing your religion of choice, when they dangle the carrot that is 'Heaven'.
But how can I dogmatically believe in Heaven though?
But how can I dogmatically believe in Heaven though?
By having a "road to Damascus" moment.
By having a "road to Damascus" moment.
What will one of those moments entail?
linnie612
20-Dec-15, 18:12
What will one of those moments entail?
'A sudden and complete change in one's beliefs.'
What will one of those moments entail?
You'll know when it hits you.
'A sudden and complete change in one's beliefs.'
But what could possibly substantiate that sudden change?
But what could possibly substantiate that sudden change?
Maybe a trip to the road to Damascus is needed Rheg.
linnie612
20-Dec-15, 20:57
But what could possibly substantiate that sudden change?
Could be anything - maybe you'll have a near-death experience, or maybe you'll open a kitchen cupboard one day and a tin of beans hits you square in the hooter, and bam!, before you know it, Jesus is your Saviour! Heaven .. Etc, etc ...
Could be anything - maybe you'll have a near-death experience, or maybe you'll open a kitchen cupboard one day and a tin of beans hits you square in the hooter, and bam!, before you know it, Jesus is your Saviour! Heaven .. Etc, etc ...
How could anyone link the existence of Heaven to anything that doesn't actually show that Heaven exists?
How could anyone link the existence of Heaven to anything that doesn't actually show that Heaven exists?
Ok forget Heaven.
Be religious and avoid Hell!
Ok forget Heaven.
Be religious and avoid Hell!
It seems to me that to be religious is a big ask. There is nothing that can be convincing enough to allow someone to believe in a Heaven, yet quite a lot of folk do seem to believe in it on the slimmest of circumstances. Or they don't believe but are just saying that they do.
2 Thess 3:2 ".....not everyone has faith."
For those who don't believe there is no explanation, for those who do believe, there is no explanation----- necessary.
Possible cop out here Reggy: 1 Corinthians 7:13-14 "If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy"
In defence of religion I've met many people whose lives have been saved or changed because they came to believe in some healing power outside of their own experience. Whats going on there?
Not everyone is taken in it seems and those that are taken in have their explanations. 1 Rheg 1:15-23
In my 70+ years I've seen a lot that makes me wonder "why?" - I started off as a young lad who went to Sunday School, knew my bible, graduating up to Choirboy, ringing the church bells and getting half a crown to sing at weddings, my uncle was the Bishop of Croydon, Bishop to HM Forces.. periods in the Army and seeing horrible death, to going on to being a Fire Fighter and again seeing horrible death.. why?.. all rather simplistic maybe, but a formative life, concreted later to a certain degree by two books I now have beside me here as I write; Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion" and "The Greatest Show on Earth" sections were ploughed through at times. But I like a quote of his: Rather than say he's an atheist, a friend of mine says, 'I'm a tooth fairy agnostic,' meaning he can't disprove God but thinks God is about as likely as the tooth fairy."
I have many friends who have beliefs diametrically apposed to my own. The last week of October I visited a good friend of many years, a devout Muslim and his wife in Lancashire, I have good friends of 40 years standing who are Jewish, good friends who are Jehovah's witnesses who's wedding Mrs Beks and I went to many years ago (may remember this Saveman?), numerous Christian faiths, Sikh's in the Army, and of course Humanists, one a friend who's cremation I attended in Inverness at a Humanist ceremony..
Big deal, you may say, but I have no argument to anyone believing in whatever they want to believe in, just walk in my shoes and maybe you too will have somewhat different conclusions, who knows?
Not everyone is taken in it seems and those that are taken in have their explanations. 1 Rheg 1:15-23
I'm not too sure what you mean but if I was to take a guess I would say your adopting a position where you see no worth in religion, whatsoever. A blind man could see there was a lot of good in religion. Apparently Jesus could make blind men see.
That's powerful stuff and cant be dismissed just like that.
I'm not too sure what you mean but if I was to take a guess I would say your adopting a position where you see no worth in religion, whatsoever. A blind man could see there was a lot of good in religion. Apparently Jesus could make blind men see.
That's powerful stuff and cant be dismissed just like that.
You are probably right Gleeber, I do not see any value in religion. I do not see how my life will change for the better if I followed one. And I would certainly be circumventing my desire to have any firm basis for my beliefs and values to meet its criteria. A lot of these religions do not represent modern life's values. Oh how we have changed for the better in many respects! You only have to see what is happening from despicable events in Syria to the conversations on the lawns of middle England on issues of women priests to realise that religion is struggling to have a meaningful place in the modern world.
You are probably right Gleeber, I do not see any value in religion. I do not see how my life will change for the better if I followed one. And I would certainly be circumventing my desire to have any firm basis for my beliefs and values to meet its criteria. A lot of these religions do not represent modern life's values. Oh how we have changed for the better in many respects! You only have to see what is happening from despicable events in Syria to the conversations on the lawns of middle England on issues of women priests to realise that religion is struggling to have a meaningful place in the modern world.
Its not for me to defend religion but there a sight more to it than that. At its core Christianity is good and it has a certain attraction that wouldnt be out of place in a 21 st century psycholgy thesis. Religion has a connection to the human soul or for the sake of the non religious the psyche.
Its not for me to defend religion but there a sight more to it than that. At its core Christianity is good and it has a certain attraction that wouldnt be out of place in a 21 st century psycholgy thesis. Religion has a connection to the human soul or for the sake of the non religious the psyche.
You could say the same about the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
You could say the same about the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
I'm sure there are some Lord of the Ring enthusiasts who get carried away with the fantasy but your just being deliberately frivolous now.
There's something very potent in religion when it's used as a tool for living. That's obvious and you compare it to Lord of the Rings. :eek:
I'm sure there are some Lord of the Ring enthusiasts who get carried away with the fantasy but your just being deliberately frivolous now.
There's something very potent in religion when it's used as a tool for living. That's obvious and you compare it to Lord of the Rings. :eek:
Well despite your comment about frivolity or not, you could say the same about the LOTR. You just haven't thought it through enough. The bible is just a story gone viral afterall. You mention the fans of LOTR believing in it and how it affects their lives. Devotees of religion are no different.
Well despite your comment about frivolity or not, you could say the same about the LOTR. You just haven't thought it through enough. The bible is just a story gone viral afterall. You mention the fans of LOTR believing in it and how it affects their lives. Devotees of religion are no different.
I'm not talking about the bible although I understand how its full of holes. I find the process and the effects of understanding the unholy bits of the bible much more interesting. Maybe that's why I see religion as a positive thing. I'm not defending the story I'm defending the effect.
Whoever Jesus was he taught something deeply beneficial to the human soul. He desrves lots of credit just for that alone. I think its his birthday this week sometime.
I'm not talking about the bible although I understand how its full of holes. I find the process and the effects of understanding the unholy bits of the bible much more interesting. Maybe that's why I see religion as a positive thing. I'm not defending the story I'm defending the effect.
I'm not attacking the good that religious groups do for charitable reasons. Likewise I'm not attacking what non-religious groups do for charitable reasons. I'm not attacking religious people for supporting people who are down on their luck, likewise I'm not attacking non-religious people for being there for others in need.
You don't need religion to be a good person. But I can see how someone could see how they couldn't be a good person without religion. But then that is what years of indoctrination can do to a person's sense of judgement. And that could be an indication why religion tries to monopolise that it can do any meaningful good.
I dont doubt what your saying but its much more complex than that. Why do you feel you have to demolish Christianity?
I dont doubt what your saying but its much more complex than that. Why do you feel you have to demolish Christianity?
Why do you think that of me? That would be like me wanting to destroy all references to the Lord of the Rings.
You are right though, it is more complex than that, devotees of religion have political power and that is why I have a problem with religion. What next? Devotees of LOTR trying to bring back smoking in bars so that they can smoke their favorite Old Toby again.
weezer 316
22-Dec-15, 12:29
We have had thsi argument before, its not. Ideas kill people. Nobody does anything in a vacuum. Ideas both kill and save people, the environment, money.....anything really. Idea's are critical, being both the reason and often the outcome of actions.
Do you find any benefit in celebrating Christmas Rheghead?
Do you find any benefit in celebrating Christmas Rheghead?
I look forward to the birth of a new year. The effect on mood and well being on seeing the longer days cannot be under estimated. The early christian church hijacked this celebration for its own end.
I look forward to the birth of a new year. The effect on mood and well being on seeing the longer days cannot be under estimated. The early christian church hijacked this celebration for its own end.
I'm forced to agree :)
There is no Christian church with a tradition that Jesus was really born on December 25th.
Do you find any benefit in celebrating Christmas Rheghead?
He didn't say there's no Santa.
There is no Christian church with a tradition that Jesus was really born on December 25th.
Are you certain of that?
As I've mentioned I'm in no way religious, but I'm pretty sure that the Bible does not give a specific date for the birth of Jesus Christ - maybe there are folk on here who can elucidate ?
As I've mentioned I'm in no way religious, but I'm pretty sure that the Bible does not give a specific date for the birth of Jesus Christ - maybe there are folk on here who can elucidate ?
The Bible gives a very specific indication that Christ was born sometime after mid December.
The Bible gives a very specific indication that Christ was born sometime after mid December.
Does it matter when Jesus was born? For the sake of this discussion and because the scoffers continue to scoff we should be talking about the power of Jesus in peoples lives. Rheghead cant bring himself to acknowledge it and because his psyche runs on a different fuel he condemns all others. Bekisman quotes Freud to scoff at the religious but Freud had just as much to say about him and me for that matter as he did the religious and not a lot was complimentary.
Does it matter when Jesus was born? For the sake of this discussion and because the scoffers continue to scoff we should be talking about the power of Jesus in peoples lives. Rheghead cant bring himself to acknowledge it and because his psyche runs on a different fuel he condemns all others. Bekisman quotes Freud to scoff at the religious but Freud had just as much to say about him and me for that matter as he did the religious and not a lot was complimentary.
What! I'm 'scoffing' ? Sorry to have to point it out but you are ignoring MY thoughts and how I arrived at my own (colloquially speaking) 'belief' - and signature for that matter- what on earth gives YOU the right to think you speak for me?
Of course there are people who honestly believe the power of Jesus - I do not doubt their integrity whatsoever, no more than a belief any 'religion' or faith following have in any spiritual being which may give them comfort. I was merely pointing out in my own 70 years I have not experienced this, and yes, there is a maxim "there are no atheists in foxholes" never held true for me personally in spite of horrendous and terrifying periods in my military life.
This Thread was about 'Religion' NOT Jesus or any other prophet and until I pass on, die, cross over or just pure blackness, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS if an an omnipotent being exists.. care to elucidate on how YOU arrived at your own beliefs?
It's widely acknowledged by most that Jesus wasn't born on 25th December. Nor did he direct his followers to celebrate his birth as a human. Jesus whole focus was on his message and his death. As for the tree, the mistletoe, Santa, etc. you need to look beyond Christianity to find their origins. When you factor in overeating, heavy drinking, commercialisation, materialism etc. the whole thing starts to drift quite far from a Christian celebration! ;)
"Bah humbug!" anyone?? LOL
Does it matter when Jesus was born? For the sake of this discussion and because the scoffers continue to scoff we should be talking about the power of Jesus in peoples lives. Rheghead cant bring himself to acknowledge it and because his psyche runs on a different fuel he condemns all others. Bekisman quotes Freud to scoff at the religious but Freud had just as much to say about him and me for that matter as he did the religious and not a lot was complimentary.
My fuel comes from the real world. So does yours. What applies to me so applies to us all.
It's widely acknowledged by most that Jesus wasn't born on 25th December. Nor did he direct his followers to celebrate his birth as a human. Jesus whole focus was on his message and his death. As for the tree, the mistletoe, Santa, etc. you need to look beyond Christianity to find their origins. When you factor in overeating, heavy drinking, commercialisation, materialism etc. the whole thing starts to drift quite far from a Christian celebration! ;)
"Bah humbug!" anyone?? LOL
"Jesus commanded that we commemorate his death, not his birth". luke 22: 19,20.
Too true Saveman, 'Christmas', is for too many, an occasion to get bladdered. London Ambulance Service estimate there will be an increase of 700 extra emergencies due to alcohol, commercialisation of this period takes away what it is supposed to mean to many. Each year I have to text/phone my younger grandchildren down in England to tell them that "Father Christmas has just flown over on his way, so better go to sleep now" . I don't drink alcohol, Mrs Beks and I will have a quiet 'festive' period watching recorded telly, chatting to our friends and family around the world, among them a number of Faiths..
I wish you 'compliments of the season' Saveman - additionally as Dave Allen would say "goodnight, thank you and may your God go with you"
never killed anyone.
Not a single human being has ever died from Religion.
Even though I am an atheist I am certain of this. You are of course absolutely correct; yet it has certainly been used to start many conflicts and justify the deaths of many by the hand of man.
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