Vote In Parliament Tonight.

[cptdodger]

MPs have voted by 397 to 223 to authorise UK air strikes against so-called Islamic State in Syria.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34989302

[squidge]

Profoundly depressing :(

[bekisman]

Democracy in action

[Oddquine]

Democracy in action

Rank UK stupidity in action! Democracy it is not.

We bombed Afghanistan for years after 9/11 to stop the terrorists, then moved on to do Iraq twice and in-between, Libya......to stop the terrorists. Why, on God's good earth, do we think that repeating the same action in Syria is going to have better results than bombing has had over the last 14/15 years? To date, the only result of our indiscriminate bombing of those countries has been the escalation of war in the Middle East and a massive increase in terrorism in Western countries and against Western targets elsewhere in the world.

I appears that Cameron has become an after dinner joke in Washington according to the editor-in-chief of the Wall Street Journal ......as follows......

God summons the leaders of the US, China and Britain and tells them the world will end tomorrow and they must prepare their people.
So Barack Obama goes on TV and says: My fellow Americans, I have good and bad news. We were right about the existence of God..but the world is about to end.
Xi Jinping then tells the Chinese: Bad News and worse news. We were wrong about the existence of God...and the world is about to end.
David Cameron goes on the BBC. "I have great news" he says " God thinks I'm one of the three most important people in the world".

And that is what it is all about. Governance in the UK is not about the good of the people of the UK (or anywhere else) and never has been.... but is all about the ego of the UK Government..and now people in the USA are coming to that conclusion. It has taken them a long time.

[weezer 316]

Rank UK stupidity in action! Democracy it is not.

We bombed Afghanistan for years after 9/11 to stop the terrorists, then moved on to do Iraq twice and in-between, Libya......to stop the terrorists. Why, on God's good earth, do we think that repeating the same action in Syria is going to have better results than bombing has had over the last 14/15 years? To date, the only result of our indiscriminate bombing of those countries has been the escalation of war in the Middle East and a massive increase in terrorism in Western countries and against Western targets elsewhere in the world.

I appears that Cameron has become an after dinner joke in Washington according to the editor-in-chief of the Wall Street Journal ......as follows......

God summons the leaders of the US, China and Britain and tells them the world will end tomorrow and they must prepare their people.
So Barack Obama goes on TV and says: My fellow Americans, I have good and bad news. We were right about the existence of God..but the world is about to end.
Xi Jinping then tells the Chinese: Bad News and worse news. We were wrong about the existence of God...and the world is about to end.
David Cameron goes on the BBC. "I have great news" he says " God thinks I'm one of the three most important people in the world".

And that is what it is all about. Governance in the UK is not about the good of the people of the UK (or anywhere else) and never has been.... but is all about the ego of the UK Government..and now people in the USA are coming to that conclusion. It has taken them a long time.


How can you say, after about 10 hours debate in the central debating platform of the country, its not democracy in action? Oh wait I know why, because you dont agree with it. Absurdly narrow minded point of view.

It will make a short term difference but that is all. Not that I agree with it.

[Oddquine]

How can you say, after about 10 hours debate in the central debating platform of the country, its not democracy in action? Oh wait I know why, because you dont agree with it. Absurdly narrow minded point of view.

It will make a short term difference but that is all. Not that I agree with it.


What might have made a difference was stopping arms sales to those countries which are supplying Daesh, stopping those countries paying Daesh for oil supplies and freezing all their bank accounts in all countries.... but that won't do, because that will hit the West.....or at least the West's bosses, the global companies, financially..because we are playing on both sides for profit.

[davth]

Hilary Benn's speech on the Syria intervention summed it all up for me, what a fantastic speech.
As he said, there is no border anymore between Iraq and Syria, therefore to make progress against Daesh we need to treat Iraq and Syria as one, which we are now doing and I applaud the government for that and also for taking a proper DEMOCRATIC vote on the matter.

[bekisman]

Rank UK stupidity in action! Democracy it is not.

We bombed Afghanistan for years after 9/11 to stop the terrorists, then moved on to do Iraq twice and in-between, Libya......to stop the terrorists. Why, on God's good earth, do we think that repeating the same action in Syria is going to have better results than bombing has had over the last 14/15 years? To date, the only result of our indiscriminate bombing of those countries has been the escalation of war in the Middle East and a massive increase in terrorism in Western countries and against Western targets elsewhere in the world.

I appears that Cameron has become an after dinner joke in Washington according to the editor-in-chief of the Wall Street Journal ......as follows......

God summons the leaders of the US, China and Britain and tells them the world will end tomorrow and they must prepare their people.
So Barack Obama goes on TV and says: My fellow Americans, I have good and bad news. We were right about the existence of God..but the world is about to end.
Xi Jinping then tells the Chinese: Bad News and worse news. We were wrong about the existence of God...and the world is about to end.
David Cameron goes on the BBC. "I have great news" he says " God thinks I'm one of the three most important people in the world".

And that is what it is all about. Governance in the UK is not about the good of the people of the UK (or anywhere else) and never has been.... but is all about the ego of the UK Government..and now people in the USA are coming to that conclusion. It has taken them a long time.

Oh here we go, oddquine wheeling out the usual squealing and whinging. Trying to say that's what the Americans think of us - in actual fact oddquine I was in America in September and October (you've travelled to USA? - please tell of your worldly-wise experience) and what I found is that the Americans have deep respect for us - I suppose an American reading the Guardian would think all Brits were left wing..
Oh by the way you missed the bit that the Editor is Gerard Baker, (British) was born and bred in England, was a wee bit left wing at Uni, but then turned Right calls himself "a "Right-Wing Curmudgeon". so your rather silly premise "this is what people in the USA..." is rather fatuous in the extreme.

Right; Parliament is made up of professional politicians who have been in the political 'world' for sometimes decades, and 397 of these, including Labour, LibDems, UUP, UKIP, voted that there should be an extension into Syria. How the heck YOU think you have more knowledge - do YOU have sight of the Joint Intelligence reports, that MP's see, sat at a keyboard in (most likely) the North of Scotland and most likely whinged about the democratic result of the Independence Referendum too.

So now you're going to reply by giving us a breakdown of your political experience, and your experience of Americans?
Of course you are entitled to your opinions, so am I, maybe you feel safer as the 'opposition' on this Org is gradually being picked off one by one, but hey, it's a democratic forum, and I am sure that the reports (in Guardian) that a number of Labour MP's were inclined to vote with the Government, went through the other division on threats of de-selection. seems that Corbyn wrote about this bullying - and its to stop last night at 11pm.. but I'm sure this doesn't apply here on 't Org - although I get a few 'words of advice' in PM's!

[bekisman]

Hilary Benn's speech on the Syria intervention summed it all up for me, what a fantastic speech.
As he said, there is no border anymore between Iraq and Syria, therefore to make progress against Daesh we need to treat Iraq and Syria as one, which we are now doing and I applaud the government for that and also for taking a proper DEMOCRATIC vote on the matter.


Hi davth wrote this last night: "Forget about Corbyn, just listened to Hillary Benn and THAT speech was the most impressive I've ever heard in the house.. And I'm a blinking Tory!!!" anyway you are right of course, imagine a murderer being chased down the road at Gretna by the Police, he crosses over to England and continues killing folk in Carlisle, pity, as the Scottish Police would have to stop, as there is border there and would have to 'hope' the English Police would deal with it.. yep, stupid ain't it. (By the way the Police on either side can cross either border - which is sensible) I'm pleased that this sensible extension of air has now included Syria.. Woner what Corbyn thought of the RAF in Iraq - he WAS asked but the usual silence

[rob murray]

Rank UK stupidity in action! Democracy it is not.

We bombed Afghanistan for years after 9/11 to stop the terrorists, then moved on to do Iraq twice and in-between, Libya......to stop the terrorists. Why, on God's good earth, do we think that repeating the same action in Syria is going to have better results than bombing has had over the last 14/15 years? To date, the only result of our indiscriminate bombing of those countries has been the escalation of war in the Middle East and a massive increase in terrorism in Western countries and against Western targets elsewhere in the world.

I appears that Cameron has become an after dinner joke in Washington according to the editor-in-chief of the Wall Street Journal ......as follows......

God summons the leaders of the US, China and Britain and tells them the world will end tomorrow and they must prepare their people.
So Barack Obama goes on TV and says: My fellow Americans, I have good and bad news. We were right about the existence of God..but the world is about to end.
Xi Jinping then tells the Chinese: Bad News and worse news. We were wrong about the existence of God...and the world is about to end.
David Cameron goes on the BBC. "I have great news" he says " God thinks I'm one of the three most important people in the world".

And that is what it is all about. Governance in the UK is not about the good of the people of the UK (or anywhere else) and never has been.... but is all about the ego of the UK Government..and now people in the USA are coming to that conclusion. It has taken them a long time.

Well SNP MP's voted against it so your concious should be clear, to say UK governance is all about ego is nonsense, whether you agree with it or not, the UK is, through the democtratic process joining the existing bombing strategy with countries already bombing, we are comming late to the situation and politically we had to be seen to be doing something ie becomming an active alliance partner. Its a hard world and some countires have long memories, EU entry for an indy Scotland....I can see France championing that cause ..not. Personally I dont agree with the bombing strategy afterall whats a couple more bombs dropped really going to do when terrorist cells, involving EU citizens are all over the place "sleeping" and awaiting mobilisation. UK involvement may set off terrorist activities in UK who knows ?

[rob murray]

Rank UK stupidity in action! Democracy it is not.

We bombed Afghanistan for years after 9/11 to stop the terrorists, then moved on to do Iraq twice and in-between, Libya......to stop the terrorists. Why, on God's good earth, do we think that repeating the same action in Syria is going to have better results than bombing has had over the last 14/15 years? To date, the only result of our indiscriminate bombing of those countries has been the escalation of war in the Middle East and a massive increase in terrorism in Western countries and against Western targets elsewhere in the world.

I appears that Cameron has become an after dinner joke in Washington according to the editor-in-chief of the Wall Street Journal ......as follows......

God summons the leaders of the US, China and Britain and tells them the world will end tomorrow and they must prepare their people.
So Barack Obama goes on TV and says: My fellow Americans, I have good and bad news. We were right about the existence of God..but the world is about to end.
Xi Jinping then tells the Chinese: Bad News and worse news. We were wrong about the existence of God...and the world is about to end.
David Cameron goes on the BBC. "I have great news" he says " God thinks I'm one of the three most important people in the world".

And that is what it is all about. Governance in the UK is not about the good of the people of the UK (or anywhere else) and never has been.... but is all about the ego of the UK Government..and now people in the USA are coming to that conclusion. It has taken them a long time.

Iraq and Libya situations had nowt to do with terrorists, these campaigns were regime changing strategically from the out set.

[rob murray]

Oh here we go, oddquine wheeling out the usual squealing and whinging. Trying to say that's what the Americans think of us - in actual fact oddquine I was in America in September and October (you've travelled to USA? - please tell of your worldly-wise experience) and what I found is that the Americans have deep respect for us - I suppose an American reading the Guardian would think all Brits were left wing..
Oh by the way you missed the bit that the Editor is Gerard Baker, (British) was born and bred in England, was a wee bit left wing at Uni, but then turned Right calls himself "a "Right-Wing Curmudgeon". so your rather silly premise "this is what people in the USA..." is rather fatuous in the extreme.

Right; Parliament is made up of professional politicians who have been in the political 'world' for sometimes decades, and 397 of these, including Labour, LibDems, UUP, UKIP, voted that there should be an extension into Syria. How the heck YOU think you have more knowledge - do YOU have sight of the Joint Intelligence reports, that MP's see, sat at a keyboard in (most likely) the North of Scotland and most likely whinged about the democratic result of the Independence Referendum too.

So now you're going to reply by giving us a breakdown of your political experience, and your experience of Americans?
Of course you are entitled to your opinions, so am I, maybe you feel safer as the 'opposition' on this Org is gradually being picked off one by one, but hey, it's a democratic forum, and I am sure that the reports (in Guardian) that a number of Labour MP's were inclined to vote with the Government, went through the other division on threats of de-selection. seems that Corbyn wrote about this bullying - and its to stop last night at 11pm.. but I'm sure this doesn't apply here on 't Org - although I get a few 'words of advice' in PM's!

You make an interesting point : 'opposition' on this Org is gradually being picked off one by one"..............and "bullying"............opposition to what ?

[rob murray]

Hilary Benn's speech on the Syria intervention summed it all up for me, what a fantastic speech.
As he said, there is no border anymore between Iraq and Syria, therefore to make progress against Daesh we need to treat Iraq and Syria as one, which we are now doing and I applaud the government for that and also for taking a proper DEMOCRATIC vote on the matter.

Benn : What we know about fascists is that they need to be defeated and it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialists and trade unionists were just one part of the International Brigade in the 1930s to fight against Franco,” he concluded to an almost silent house. “It’s why this entire house stood up against Hitler and Mussolini. It’s why our party has always stood up against the denial of human rights and for justice and my view, Mr Speaker, is that we must now confront this evil. It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria (http://www.theguardian.com/world/syria) and that is why I ask my colleagues to vote in favour of this motion tonight.”
Powerful unargueable true words, in a speech where he layed waste to the prime minister, berating him for not having the courage or decency to apologise for calling Jeremy Corbyn (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/jeremy-corbyn) a terrorist sympathiser.

This is a great read http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/03/syria-debate-hilary-benn-launches-shock-and-awe-campaign-against-labour

[bekisman]

You make an interesting point : 'opposition' on this Org is gradually being picked off one by one"..............and "bullying"............opposition to what ?


Hi Rob Murray, 'bullying' I was referring to was Corbyn :http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34993426 Nah there's no real bullying on here, like water off a ducks back, tis mild stuff.. 'picked off' was referring to the whole range of Orgers that have gone/banned (mostly during the run up to and after the Referendum fiasco - I think a lot of fragilities were dented) i.e. 'where have all the trouble makers gone' even BT was recently banned.
Me? I'm not bothering with this thread as I KNOW we will have the usual posters waffling away telling us all that Westminster (horrible, terrible Westminster where ALL evil emanates)and will fill pages and pages - no, will let 'em swim in their self-proclaimed righteous indignation at the conclusion that was drawn at 22.00 last night..

[rob murray]

Hi Rob Murray, 'bullying' I was referring to was Corbyn :http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34993426 Nah there's no real bullying on here, like water off a ducks back, tis mild stuff.. 'picked off' was referring to the whole range of Orgers that have gone/banned (mostly during the run up to and after the Referendum fiasco - I think a lot of fragilities were dented) i.e. 'where have all the trouble makers gone' even BT was recently banned.
Me? I'm not bothering with this thread as I KNOW we will have the usual posters waffling away telling us all that Westminster (horrible, terrible Westminster where ALL evil emanates)and will fill pages and pages - no, will let 'em swim in their self-proclaimed righteous indignation at the conclusion that was drawn at 22.00 last night..


Hilary Benns speech was a master class and levels above cameron or indeed any one else....yep getting sick fed up of the grievance politics..all westminsters fault for everthing....... The last great speech the late was Robin Cooks one on opposing the Iraq "war"

[rob murray]

Hi Rob Murray, 'bullying' I was referring to was Corbyn :http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34993426 Nah there's no real bullying on here, like water off a ducks back, tis mild stuff.. 'picked off' was referring to the whole range of Orgers that have gone/banned (mostly during the run up to and after the Referendum fiasco - I think a lot of fragilities were dented) i.e. 'where have all the trouble makers gone' even BT was recently banned.
Me? I'm not bothering with this thread as I KNOW we will have the usual posters waffling away telling us all that Westminster (horrible, terrible Westminster where ALL evil emanates)and will fill pages and pages - no, will let 'em swim in their self-proclaimed righteous indignation at the conclusion that was drawn at 22.00 last night..


self-proclaimed righteous indignation ......................right on !!!

[rob murray]

the SNP oppose bombing, but have failed to present a seriouscase to fight back against what is, essentially, an apocalyptic death cult,committing daily outrages against humanity. Can anyone fill me in on what the SNP propose to do given their opposition ?

[rob murray]

international action needs to be taken against Turkey andSaudi Arabia... both of whom trade oil with ISIL and effectively fund theoperation...so what do we do there ??? Turkey we can handle but SA...........thats where international interets lie, a complex interconnected mess

[rob murray]

the SNP oppose bombing, but have failed to present a seriouscase to fight back against what is, essentially, an apocalyptic death cult,committing daily outrages against humanity. Can anyone fill me in on what the SNP propose to do given their opposition ?

SNP Westminster leader Angus Robertson said: “Tonight the UK parliament gave the green light to continue a complex and deadly conflict without a comprehensive plan for peace and reconstruction. AGreed...but what plans do the SNP have ?

“We are all committed to destroying Daesh [IS] - it is about how best we do that. Well what do they, the SNP, suggest ?

Not SNP "bashing" as some would put it, but they voted against stated their reasons which is fine but whats their ideas / policies on dealing with this situation ???

[weezer 316]

What might have made a difference was stopping arms sales to those countries which are supplying Daesh, stopping those countries paying Daesh for oil supplies and freezing all their bank accounts in all countries.... but that won't do, because that will hit the West.....or at least the West's bosses, the global companies, financially..because we are playing on both sides for profit.

Oh my days.

You know what, possibly. Some of that isn't feasible, although not for the reasons you claim, but certainly some of it would help. Saudis have enough arms to supply them already stocked up, cant stop cash being handed over etc.....BUT.............Your claim, and my rebuttal was that this IS democracy in action. You know it. Simply that you disagree with it you have to make a claim to undermine the system that made it. Nuts. utterly nuts. Debate the points, making claims like this just undermines the subsequent points you make.

Im really not sure what else could have been done via a democratic forum to ensure a democratic decision was reached. Honestly. What else do you propose? Referendum perhaps?

[weezer 316]

international action needs to be taken against Turkey andSaudi Arabia... both of whom trade oil with ISIL and effectively fund theoperation...so what do we do there ??? Turkey we can handle but SA...........thats where international interets lie, a complex interconnected mess



Saudi Arabia is the key. Its going down the plughole as well anyway but its financing and supplying of arms or ISIS is an issue.

Plus, ISIS are just the same as the Saudi's minus the palaces, with things like killing homosexuals/subjugation of woman etc.

[rob murray]

Saudi Arabia is the key. Its going down the plughole as well anyway but its financing and supplying of arms or ISIS is an issue.

Plus, ISIS are just the same as the Saudi's minus the palaces, with things like killing homosexuals/subjugation of woman etc.

Spot on but they are sitting on a huge Oil capital reserve, dwindling by the day though at current low Oil prices, the reason there was no Arab spring in SA is the saudi powers can buy people off, but they are a key player in this situation along with Turkey, try and work out their involvement, ie they seem to have 2 enemies the rebel Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) and IS, though in reality they hate the Kurds more and have been buying oil from IS. The PKK leader Cemil Bayik accuses Turkey of attacking the PKK in order to "stop the Kurdish advance against [IS]". So Turkey, he said, was actually "protecting IS" See...what a complex mess !

[piratelassie]

In 1918 Britain renaged on promisies given to the arab nations for their help to the allies during WW1.Since then a hatred has grown towards the west. They promised self determination which was denied.

[rob murray]

In 1918 Britain renaged on promisies given to the arab nations for their help to the allies during WW1.Since then a hatred has grown towards the west. They promised self determination which was denied.

Britain and France actually, through the Sykes - Picot agreement of 1916, which was designed to divide the Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire outside the Arabian peninsula into areas of future British and French control or influence : But I suppose the rise over the years since of radical religous extremism, murderous dictators, tribal hatred and a complete lack of democracy across most Middle east countries has nothing to do with the situation ? Drop the ladybird childrens book history, stop playing politics with such a dangerous and compex situation, its not as s imple as you make it out to be and certainly not caused by actions of UK. ANyway whats done is done yu cannot go back in time and undo the 1916 agreement, its how we deal with the here and now that matters

[bekisman]

I see even Germany has voted by an overwhelming majority of 445 to 146 (7 abstained) in favour approving Chancellor Merkel's plan to join the military mission in Syria aimed at defeating daesh; they will send six Tornado reconnaissance jets and a refueling aircraft to back up the international anti-ISIL coalition, but its military will not conduct air strikes (they are forbidden under German constitution - for historical reasons). BUT they are flying over Syria in reconnaissance missions to enable the coalition to attack targets

The $142m year-long mission also involves deploying up to 1,200 military personnel, as well as a frigate to support the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, which Paris has dispatched to the region.

While 58 per cent of those surveyed in the ARD poll said they agreed that Germany should offer military support in the campaign against ISIL, 37 per cent were opposed.

[rob murray]

In 1918 Britain renaged on promisies given to the arab nations for their help to the allies during WW1.Since then a hatred has grown towards the west. They promised self determination which was denied.

What you saying now ?