Anti-English?

[bekisman]

Well, well well.. ain't that just nasty..

Racism in Scotland is now almost as likely to be directed against white people as any other group, new figures show

http://www.scotsman.com/news/anti-english-sentiment-blamed-as-whites-suffer-rise-in-racism-1-2685148

[tonkatojo]

I have lived in Scotland for 29 of my 65 years life and it has always been like that, anti English, but mostly it is semi disguised as so called banter. I realised long ago to live with it or ignore it, the old sticks and stones worked well with my philosophy. In defense of the minority though, not all were like that and I had some good pals in Scotland once they knew me.

[rob murray]

I have lived in Scotland for 29 of my 65 years life and it has always been like that, anti English, but mostly it is semi disguised as so called banter. I realised long ago to live with it or ignore it, the old sticks and stones worked well with my philosophy. In defense of the minority though, not all were like that and I had some good pals in Scotland once they new me.

There has always been an under current of "despise / contempt" from some ignoramases towards what some call white settlers in Scotland, the SNP's grieveance politics where Westminster and by definition ENgland is played constantly as the bad boy has now made this part of the dominant political narrative giving further fuel to the situation. Now its funny how my son living and working in London has never ever been subjected to even what I would call "banter" on his obvious Scottishness, of course London is an international metropolis and not a myopic "village". Again the film "Braveheart" certainly fuelled the thickos who define their Scottishness through a hatred of England. No widen that, anyone daring to critiise the SNP is seen by harded "yessers" as lying traitors so the posion extends to anti SNP scots as well, Ive been told on this site, if I didnt like it ( SNP stuff ) f off south despite as Ive repeated on here time and time again Ive got a direct blood lineage in Caithness which goes back to the 16th century....this is my country and Caithness will always be my county, and Wick my birth place is my town ???? Anti anyone is not on we ae all Jock Tamsons bairns

[BetterTogether]

It's quite possible to be anti Scottish even though born and bred here and having lineage going back centuries if you don't buy into one relatively newly formed political parties somewhat myopic view. So at the moment according to some over 50% of Scotland is either not Scottish or not Scottish enough. I fail to see how throwing about such accusations would help a political party gain more voters.

[rob murray]

Of the 2 terms, Id say "not scottish enough" is the more accurate if applied to Scots born people, thats what the SNP called Alex Bell mind when he leaked the discord behind the fiscal fantasy figures in the indy 1 campaign,...not one of us ( Scottish / SNP )....who are us anyway.......whats Scottish enough, do you have to be in the SNP to be Scottish ???? How do you be Scottish or rather who decides that your scottish and on what terms.....very, very dangerous territory.

[BetterTogether]

Does that mean if you've only started voting SNP in the last few years you'd of been sort of Scottish but now you've got a blue badge and possibly wee blue book you're totally Scottish.

So what does that mean William Wallace was or Robert the Bruce not really Scottish as they weren't members and didnt have either a book or a badge.

That could throw open a whole can of worms born in Caithness and Sutherland more Norse than Scottish or west coast more Irish than Scottish or down to the borders ooh eerrr possibly English hybrids.

We can trawl through history to see if any of Scotland's most famous people displayed either badge/book or voted SNP to dictate their worth as genuine Scottish.

Maybe we could do a quick lineage check just to make sure there's no English in family lines or nobody took the wrong side during infamous periods of Scottish History.

It all starts to get a bit absurd when you apply even a modicum of logical thinking to how far you want to take the how Scottish are you theme.

[rob murray]

Does that mean if you've only started voting SNP in the last few years you'd of been sort of Scottish but now you've got a blue badge and possibly wee blue book you're totally Scottish.

So what does that mean William Wallace was or Robert the Bruce not really Scottish as they weren't members and didnt have either a book or a badge.

That could throw open a whole can of worms born in Caithness and Sutherland more Norse than Scottish or west coast more Irish than Scottish or down to the borders ooh eerrr possibly English hybrids.

We can trawl through history to see if any of Scotland's most famous people displayed either badge/book or voted SNP to dictate their worth as genuine Scottish.

Maybe we could do a quick lineage check just to make sure there's no English in family lines or nobody took the wrong side during infamous periods of Scottish History.

It all starts to get a bit absurd when you apply even a modicum of logical thinking to how far you want to take the how Scottish are you theme.

But I read The Broons and Oor Wullie ?????

[BetterTogether]

But I read The Broons and Oor Wullie ?????

Was you wearing a kilt drinking Irn Bru, eating a tunnocks while wrapped in a saltire if not sadly not enough.

[bekisman]

Well my own experience (being a Cornishman) was that for 21 years ran a guesthouse up here, had an official sign at end of road, alongside with two others, advertising accommodation.. get a call from a friend (Scottish) to say sign has been sprayed.. went to look and across all three signs were paint sprayed the words "WHITE SETTLERS".. it showed the person who did it was a hillbilly and pretty thick as the other two were born and bred Scots, it was soon sorted, by a) using paint remover, and b) my putting a notice in JOG journal and Northern Times offering a £100 reward to information - let it be said that the information I desired was forthcoming within two days of ad appearing, and was thus 'sorted', let it be said it never re-occurred!

In the Forces and Fire Service I worked in great harmony with Jocks - we were a team, and the anti-English sentiment is looked upon with embarrassment by those worldly-wise friends about the parochial activities of numpties who have never been south of Inverness just 'sad gits' in their opinions.

[BetterTogether]

I must concur with your opinion I've worked with many Scots down in England can't say I've ever seen them receive the same shall we call it Bias as to which part of the U.K. they where born in. Maybe it's why so many of them move south to get away from such narrow minded parochial views and into a broader more multi cultural society that's learnt to embrace so much and move beyond petty grievances.

During my time in the forces I had the fortune to work with the Black Watch, Royal Scots not once did I encounter a single anti English comment just good humour maybe that's how real men deal with it good humour and a few drinks rather than hiding behind keyboards and throwing around insults.

[cptdodger]

I lived and worked in England for a number of years, and never, ever came across or indeed was subjected to any anti Scottish sentiment. Since moving here I have been called all sorts of things, like bekisman said, a white settler which really is a joke, and clearly the person that called me that has no understanding of what that term actually means.

Being Scottish, I am mortified by the level of abuse that is aimed at the English which always seems to get worse around sporting events, but is bad enough in general. People will excuse it by saying "it's only banter" try it with any other section of the community and it would be deemed as racist. I found when I lived in Dundee certainly, this attitude was more common with people who had never been further south than Edinburgh. To me, they are just an embarrassment. Given the choice, I would rather live in England where the "locals" are a lot more accepting of people regardless where they are from.

[piratelassie]

You are Scottish if you put Scotland's interests first, where you were born is irrelivent. A lot of "white settlers" are SNP supporters, and the SNP obviously put Scotland first.

[dc1]

I put Scotland first by voting no so I must be scottish

[sids]

and the SNP obviously put Scotland first.

They put themselves first and anti-English madness is their stock in trade.

[bekisman]

You are Scottish if you put Scotland's interests first, where you were born is irrelivent. A lot of "white settlers" are SNP supporters, and the SNP obviously put Scotland first.
what on earth does that mean!?

[golach]

I put Scotland first by voting no so I must be scottish
I totally agree I did likewise

[piratelassie]

No voters get off your knees.

[bekisman]

No voters get off your knees.

what on earth does that mean!?

[cptdodger]

No voters get off your knees.


We did, we walked into polling stations and voted NO. At eight minutes past six in the morning of the 19th of September 2014, we saved your precious Country from an absoulute nightmare. It is you that should be on your knees thanking US.

[bekisman]

We did, we walked into polling stations and voted NO. At eight minutes past six in the morning of the 19th of September 2014, we saved your precious Country from an absoulute nightmare. It is you that should be on your knees thanking US.


Well put Sir!

[davth]

In the Forces and Fire Service I worked in great harmony with Jocks

Using this as a term to describe Scots really boils my urine, what is wrong with calling us Brits or Scots?
It is no better than using the term Paki

[golach]

Using this as a term to describe Scots really boils my urine, what is wrong with calling us Brits or Scots?
It is no better than using the term Paki
While in the Forces and the Merchant Navy, was often called Jock, never took it as an insult, the guy saying probably did not know my name and was being friendly, as were the terms of Taff and Paddy, even Geordie or Scouse, until I got to know them.

[tonkatojo]

While in the Forces and the Merchant Navy, was often called Jock, never took it as an insult, the guy saying probably did not know my name and was being friendly, as were the terms of Taff and Paddy, even Geordie or Scouse, until I got to know them.

Spot on golach, I heard the term "sweatys" often enough in the forces and hated it, but sticks and stones apply just as well. I had very good Scottish pal who was called "Jock", he was the one that introduced himself as Jock to the barrack room, I got Geordie John and took no offence and thought what the hell.

[davth]

While in the Forces and the Merchant Navy, was often called Jock, never took it as an insult, the guy saying probably did not know my name and was being friendly, as were the terms of Taff and Paddy, even Geordie or Scouse, until I got to know them.

How long ago was that though?
What did you use to refer to an Englishman whose name you didnt know?
If you dont know a persons name "excuse me" will work perfectly well.

[bekisman]

Using this as a term to describe Scots really boils my urine, what is wrong with calling us Brits or Scots?
It is no better than using the term Paki


Goodness me davth am I right in thinking you've never served in a military or 'rough' men-orientated profession? It's perfect normal to use 'Jock' or 'Taff' or 'Brum' or Scouse' as long as it's not used in a pejorative way i.e. 'those feffing jocks' THAT would be totally wrong.. my driver was 'Jock' Maclean, my buddy in the Far East was 'Paddy' Mitchell, I worked with a number of 'Taffs' (Taff Evans).. Possibly you missed the gist of my previous post, this was not a generalization of a nation, good God man I have Scottish blood in me I have two Scottish Daughters in Law - one from the Black Isle indeed. But an indication of prefix to people I worked with.. Incidentally 'Jock' is quite widely used as a nickname for John. IF I had been referring to Scots I would say "Scots".. I am sorry you reacted in such a way, offence was not intended, but I am rather taken aback at your contemptible use of the 'P' word alluded to in your post, surely that was not necessary!

[davth]

I have heard many folk referring to themselves as Geordies, but never once have I heard a Scotsman refer to himself as a "Sweaty Sock" or "Jock" unless of course he was in fact called Jock.

[davth]

What difference is there between Paki or Jock or Taff or Yank to use a slang for their place of origin? (none of which I use, posted merely to point out bekisman's hypocrisy)
If you meant John in your post then fair enough, but it doesn't read that way to me.
I am not offended by it in any way, as I said it just boils my urine a bit as there is no need to use the term.

You are correct I have never served in the military but what would you class as a male orientated profession?

[bekisman]

What difference is there between Paki or Jock or Taff or Yank to use a slang for their place of origin?
If you meant John in your post then fair enough, but it doesn't read that way to me.
I am not offended by it in any way, as I said it just boils my urine a bit as there is no need to use the term.

You are correct I have never served in the military but what would you class as a male orientated profession?

Jolly good, fair enough [You are correct I have never served in the military but what would you class as a male orientated profession? ] well generally I was referring to sweaty blokes with a knock-about attitude but who are a friendly bunch? Just noticed I've got a red reputation point one for using the 'J' word.. Ahhhh

[davth]

Jolly good, fair enough [You are correct I have never served in the military but what would you class as a male orientated profession? ] well generally I was referring to sweaty blokes with a knock-about attitude but who are a friendly bunch?


Aah like Farms, Power Stations, Building Sites, Oil Rigs etc, not that any profession is male orientated these days (unless you are sexist).
Yes I have and do, and if I am referred to as a Jock or Sweaty Sock by anyone they are told to go away and reproduce.

[davth]

Just noticed I've got a red reputation point one for using the 'J' word.. Ahhhh

Funny that, i got one also for illuminating someones hypocrisy.

[Tam 2000]

thank you for voting dodger, that way , they could not run a bath never mind the country.

[bekisman]

Aah like Farms, Power Stations, Building Sites, Oil Rigs etc, not that any profession is male orientated these days (unless you are sexist).
Yes I have and do, and if I am referred to as a Jock or Sweaty Sock by anyone they are told to go away and reproduce.


I'm pleased for you davth, presumably these were all over the UK? really, you've never heard anyone call another mate 'jock' if he was Scottish - obviously there are many on this Org who are Scottish and well traveled, and not one has been good naturedly referred to as 'Jock'?. As I mentioned I was in the Military and can honestly report I've not been 'told to go away et al' by any of the many friends/mates I risked my life with, supposed they were worldly wise enough to know that it was never said in a mocking tone. When I go over to Belfast in a month I'll be sure I don't call Dave Mitchell "Paddy" as he might, well you know...

[Tam 2000]

well said dodger, right decision.

[bekisman]

Funny that, i got one also for illuminating someones hypocrisy.


Yep that was me! for putting up a word that IS offensive.. Quote (look it up)
But Lord Justice Auld overturned the ruling yesterday, saying it was clear that the word "Paki" - short for Pakistani - was "a slang expression which is racially offensive".


He dismissed claims that the term could be used affectionately in the way that Australians are sometimes called "Aussies", Britons "Poms" and Americans "Yanks"....

[bekisman]

While in the Forces and the Merchant Navy, was often called Jock, never took it as an insult, the guy saying probably did not know my name and was being friendly, as were the terms of Taff and Paddy, even Geordie or Scouse, until I got to know them.


Well there you are! said with experience

[davth]

I'm pleased for you davth, presumably these were all over the UK? really, you've never heard anyone call another mate 'jock' if he was Scottish - obviously there are many on this Org who are Scottish and well traveled, and not one has been good naturedly referred to as 'Jock'?. As I mentioned I was in the Military and can honestly report I've not been 'told to go away et al' by any of the many friends/mates I risked my life with, supposed they were worldly wise enough to know that it was never said in a mocking tone. When I go over to Belfast in a month I'll be sure I don't call Dave Mitchell "Paddy" as he might, well you know...



Further afield than the UK to be honest.
I have heard plenty folk being called jock, but I have never heard a person refer to himself as jock unless he was John.
It's only ever an Englishman I have heard use the term though, and they don't like being told to go away (in a slightly more industrial tone) when it's aimed in my direction.

[rob murray]

Well there you are! said with experience

A bit of history : The 9th (Scottish) Division, was one of the Kitchener'sArmy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchener%27s_Army) divisions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_(military)) raised from volunteers by LordKitchener (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Kitchener,_1st_Earl_Kitchener_of_Khartoum) to serve on the Western Front (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Front_(World_War_I)) during the First WorldWar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I).After the 1st South African Infantry BrigadeGroup (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Infantry_Brigade_(South_Africa)) joined in early 1916, the division was known colloquially (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquial)as the Jock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people)and Springboks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springbok).The 9th (Scottish) Division took part in major fighting during the Sommeoffensive. Notably it relieved the 30th Division (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_30th_Division) at Montauban and laterattacked German positions at Bernafay Wood, where it succeeded in capturingvital objectives and forcing a German withdrawal. In the Somme offensive, the9th (Scottish) Division liberated the village of Longueval (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longueval),the village now has a statue of a Scottish piper at its crossroads thatcommemorates this fact and also other pipers who served in World War I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) One would say that these men were proud of being called Jocks and the term Jock being associatted with "warriors / ladies from hell" !!!

[davth]

I'm pleased for you davth, presumably these were all over the UK? really, you've never heard anyone call another mate 'jock' if he was Scottish - obviously there are many on this Org who are Scottish and well traveled, and not one has been good naturedly referred to as 'Jock'?. As I mentioned I was in the Military and can honestly report I've not been 'told to go away et al' by any of the many friends/mates I risked my life with, supposed they were worldly wise enough to know that it was never said in a mocking tone. When I go over to Belfast in a month I'll be sure I don't call Dave Mitchell "Paddy" as he might, well you know...


A lot of things are the norm or acceptable in the military.
Meanwhile in real life they are not the norm or acceptable.

[rob murray]

A lot of things are the norm or acceptable in the military.
Meanwhile in real life they are not the norm or acceptable.

Ive been in ENgland loads of times never been called Jock once, can see how the term has historical connatations in miltary and say on building sites etc where guys use nicknames, just as guys there get called geordies, scousers, brummies etc ..all acceptable but as was said try using the term P*ddy or M**k and watch out,maybe some folk would object to being called Jock but all depends on circumstances as I see it, if intended as an insult then its not on !!

[cptdodger]

When I worked in England in the early 90's I was nicknamed "Haggis" we all had nicknames for each other, no harm meant, in fact, my best friend from those days still calls me that! The only thing I object to being referred to is "scotch" I am not a drink !!

[bekisman]

A lot of things are the norm or acceptable in the military.
Meanwhile in real life they are not the norm or acceptable.


Wot! you don't call the Fire Service norm or acceptable.. out of interest just watched Guy Martin 'the last flight of the Vulcan' and the Chief Engineer (civie) was called 'Taff' (Stone) - come on davth, relax and chill. You admit: "I have heard plenty folk being called jock" so tell me were they upset, disgusted, told the speaker to 'go away etc'. Now THAT is the crux of this discussion. i.e. were those people who were spoken to and called 'Jock' apoplectic ?

[bekisman]

When I worked in England in the early 90's I was nicknamed "Haggis" we all had nicknames for each other, no harm meant, in fact, my best friend from those days still calls me that! The only thing I object to being referred to is "scotch" I am not a drink !!

My nicknames have ranged from 'big pete', 'sausage' and 'Jack' (Jack was from the custom of calling Cornish folk 'Cousin Jack', I was fuming about that one - nah, it was fine)

[rob murray]

My nicknames have ranged from 'big pete', 'sausage' and 'Jack' (Jack was from the custom of calling Cornish folk 'Cousin Jack', I was fuming about that one - nah, it was fine)

Could be worse, we could be norwegains or "noggies" as is the term used to call them in certain sectors : "N*ggie is considered a mildly derogatory word for a Norwegian, but is not overly offensive. Best to use with caution". Same can be applied to the word J*ck, ie J*ck is considered a mildly derogatory word for a Scot, but is not overly offensive. Best to use with caution, so if someone uses the term J*ck people reply / respond according to their interpretation and context of the word used, but it is not overly offensive going by the norwegain n*ggie word / term explanation. Is that putting this one to bed ?

[bekisman]

Could be worse, we could be norwegains or "noggies" as is the term used to call them in certain sectors : "N*ggie is considered a mildly derogatory word for a Norwegian, but is not overly offensive. Best to use with caution". Same can be applied to the word J*ck, ie J*ck is considered a mildly derogatory word for a Scot, but is not overly offensive. Best to use with caution, so if someone uses the term J*ck people reply / respond according to their interpretation and context of the word used, but it is not overly offensive going by the norwegain n*ggie word / term explanation. Is that putting this one to bed ?


Of course never call anyone 'Jock' unless I knew them in a friendly way.. but yes this tread has been beaten to death, enough said.. (but I don't think 'someone' will agree)

[davth]

Yup, I would agree with it being a derogatory term.