Paris Tragedy

[nicnak]

With the horrific attrocities that have happened in Paris yesterday my heart and thoughts go out to all those affected and to the people of France. And I hope all those do-gooders that were shipping and taking aid to the migrants in Calais etc can take on board what they have contributed towards! It has been proven over and over in the last few weeks that among the migrants were terrorists but these people even when warned welcomed them, clothed and fed them and now have to bear this on their conscience. Not every migrant is a terrorist but they were among them and I am sure will have contributed in some form or other towards the weeks events. I am sure some people will not agree with the post or be even offended by it butif the cap fits wear it, the truth hurts and perhaps some lessons can be learnt!

[rich62_uk]

I am sure the UK is next :( .... Young men in droves were entering with no women in sight but still they were allowed in.

[dragonfly]

And I hope all those do-gooders that were shipping and taking aid to the migrants in Calais etc can take on board what they have contributed towards!

I daresay that amongst the legions of migrants there will be mainly good people fleeing the atrocities in their own countries and probably some of those migrants will be bad sorts, however the attacks on Paris is unlikely to have been carried out by any of the migrants but more likely 2nd/3rd generation French muslims whose parents/grandparents came to settle in France from the days of France's colonisation of middle eastern countries like Algeria, Lebanon, Syria etc. These people's descendants are excluded from French society - these are the people being radicalised by the Jihads not the migrants fleeing their war torn countries for a better life in Europe with their children

[weeker2014]

I daresay that amongst the legions of migrants there will be mainly good people fleeing the atrocities in their own countries and probably some of those migrants will be bad sorts, however the attacks on Paris is unlikely to have been carried out by any of the migrants but more likely 2nd/3rd generation French muslims whose parents/grandparents came to settle in France from the days of France's colonisation of middle eastern countries like Algeria, Lebanon, Syria etc. These people's descendants are excluded from French society - these are the people being radicalised by the Jihads not the migrants fleeing their war torn countries for a better life in Europe with their children

I agree. Calling migrants terrorists in a general term is unacceptable to say the very least. Treating migrants in such a way simply makes them outsiders and creates disillusion that causes attacks like this. We should welcome migrants and refugees with open arms and welcome them.

There are bad people is every society and religion, tarring with the same brush is wrong.

[nicnak]

I am sorry dragonfly I have to disagree with you, have you ever actual been to calais and seen the migrants? have you seen them breaking into wagons? have you actually have had them trying to get into your or your friends vehicles while trying to get to a port? If you had you would realise these are not innocent people these are criminals, In my times passing I have never seen a migrant women doing these acts always gangs of young and mature men. I am sure a lot of migrants are innocent but an awful lot are not, How many actual terrorists were stopped crossing the borders this week? So why do people not realise, that giving these people aid is writing Europes peoples death orders? Do gooders should concentrate on those that need their help at home, the homeless , the old etc . Not only that I have met many settlers from different countries while travelling through europe and especially France and have to say from my experience France is a very multicultural and accepting Country so saying they are not accepting is not actually correct from what i have seen.

[rich62_uk]

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2015/11/14/Police-Syrian-passport-found-near-body-of-one-of-the-suicide-bombers-.html

[weeker2014]

I am sorry dragonfly I have to disagree with you, have you ever actual been to calais and seen the migrants? have you seen them breaking into wagons? have you actually have had them trying to get into your or your friends vehicles while trying to get to a port? If you had you would realise these are not innocent people these are criminals, In my times passing I have never seen a migrant women doing these acts always gangs of young and mature men. I am sure a lot of migrants are innocent but an awful lot are not, How many actual terrorists were stopped crossing the borders this week? So why do people not realise, that giving these people aid is writing Europes peoples death orders? Do gooders should concentrate on those that need their help at home, the homeless , the old etc . Not only that I have met many settlers from different countries while travelling through europe and especially France and have to say from my experience France is a very multicultural and accepting Country so saying they are not accepting is not actually correct from what i have seen.

What a lot of tosh! These people are not criminals or terrorists, these people are desperate for a better life for them and their families.

[nicnak]

Thanks rich62_uk. just a brilliant example it is like if you knew 1 in a 100 dogs would savage you to death given the chance would you let 100 dogs in your house to live with you? I dont think so !

[weeker2014]

Thanks rich62_uk. just a brilliant example it is like if you knew 1 in a 100 dogs would savage you to death given the chance would you let 100 dogs in your house to live with you? I dont think so !

Ok now your comments are bordering on racism

[nicnak]

I am sorry I fail to see how they are racist, the terrorist are from ISIS , and we know that the terrorists have merged in with the migrants so how is that racist? the migrants are from multiple countries as are the terrorists!

[rich62_uk]

I would like to know who is harbouring them ? The families of the terrorist MUST know something is not right with their child/hubby/wife/brotherinlaw etc so why are they not speaking up !

[weeker2014]

I am sorry I fail to see how they are racist, the terrorist are from ISIS , and we know that the terrorists have merged in with the migrants so how is that racist? the migrants are from multiple countries as are the terrorists!

Because you are referring to migrants as something beneath you and the rest of us. Calling them terrorists and criminals and referring to them all as being part of ISIS. They are fleeing war torn countries to get away from ISIS who is killing their families, friends and children. The only difference to you or me is they were born in a different country. You should be ashamed by your comments. On a day like today we should be standing beside the people of france and sharing our condolences, not trying to stir up more hatred, anger and separation which just breeds terrorism.

[dragonfly]

maybe this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/paris-attacks-lay-bare-longtime-muslim-exclusion.html?_r=0) may enlighten you on French Muslims exclusion? This report stemmed from the attacks in Paris in January - just because you didn't experience it when you travelled in France doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

what happened in Paris last night was terrible but it was carried out by a fundamentalist organisation whose one intent in life is to eradicate all infidels including those of muslim extractions whose views are not as radicalised as theirs. Jihadists are evil to the core there is no doubting that but you cannot tar all Muslims and those in the migrant camps with the same brush.

[weeker2014]

Or this one to show how far back the feelings of exclusion go:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4375910.stm

Or just this quote from the 2005 article:

"French police know that there is no shortage of potential jihadis in the country.
The assertiveness of French Islam is seen as a threat not just to the values of the republic, but to its very security."

Doesnt look much like migrants and refugees in the past couple of years are the issue to me.

[nicnak]

Weeker 2014 I can only speak from what i have found, and i certainly didnt say or infer that migrants are below me and i am not stiring up hatred or racisim nor am i stating that all migrants are criminals! I stated the ones i saw breaking into vehicles and the ones that cause criminal damage and try to cross our borders are criminals, there are good amongst bad that is evident everywhere , and it is proven that the terrorist have been heading through europe with the migrants and refugees . I have every wish to help those genuine refugees but not those migrants coming illegally, I hope this sorts thing out for you. And to be honest I have always found the best way to know a country and its people are from visiting it and associating with those from that country not purely from written reports!

[weeker2014]

Weeker 2014 I can only speak from what i have found, and i certainly didnt say or infer that migrants are below me and i am not stiring up hatred or racisim nor am i stating that all migrants are criminals! I stated the ones i saw breaking into vehicles and the ones that cause criminal damage and try to cross our borders are criminals, there are good amongst bad that is evident everywhere , and it is proven that the terrorist have been heading through europe with the migrants and refugees . I have every wish to help those genuine refugees but not those migrants coming illegally, I hope this sorts thing out for you. And to be honest I have always found the best way to know a country and its people are from visiting it and associating with those from that country not purely from written reports!

Migrants are crossing Europes borders by boat by the hundreds of thousands. How do you figure those crossing our borders are criminals? The only thing that will get rid of hate is love, the entire tone of your posts goes against that. Hate only breeds hate!

[midi2304]

Sometimes I despair. Be aware that before I say what I am about to say, I am a former Royal Naval submariner who has fought in the Middle East in the late 90s, early 00s, just for context.

Here's what has happened in the past 30 years. We have been parading ourselves to the world as 'Great Britain' and bombing other countries with the justification that they are living their lives incorrectly. We have taken some self-imposed moral high ground with the justification that we can send troops into these countries, arm certain sides and claim that their moral values are wrong all the while proclaiming that we know better because we are Great Britain.

Then we have the audacity to sit and complain when these same people, desperate to escape these atrocities that are happening every single day in the likes of Syria, want to escape for a life in a country we constantly proclaim to be the better place.

The hypocrisy is simply astounding.

If you think people are walking thousands of miles to bomb Paris, you are a moron. If you think that well armed and well funded terrorists are using the migration of people desperate for a better life in the West as a cover then, sure, of course they are. If you are then suggesting we should stop taking migrants from the very countries we are bombing to minimise the chances of terrorism from terrorists attacking us because we bomb their countries...? Nicnak, you are an absolute disgrace and I am ashamed of people like you living in this country infinitely more than I am of the migrants trying to obtain a better life here.

[weeker2014]

Sometimes I despair. Be aware that before I say what I am about to say, I am a former Royal Naval submariner who has fought in the Middle East in the late 90s, early 00s, just for context.

Here's what has happened in the past 30 years. We have been parading ourselves to the world as 'Great Britain' and bombing other countries with the justification that they are living their lives incorrectly. We have taken some self-imposed moral high ground with the justification that we can send troops into these countries, arm certain sides and claim that their moral values are wrong all the while proclaiming that we know better because we are Great Britain.

Then we have the audacity to sit and complain when these same people, desperate to escape these atrocities that are happening every single day in the likes of Syria, want to escape for a life in a country we constantly proclaim to be the better place.

The hypocrisy is simply astounding.

If you think people are walking thousands of miles to bomb Paris, you are a moron. If you think that well armed and well funded terrorists are using the migration of people desperate for a better life in the West as a cover then, sure, of course they are. If you are then suggesting we should stop taking migrants from the very countries we are bombing to minimise the chances of terrorism from terrorists attacking us because we bomb their countries...? Nicnak, you are an absolute disgrace and I am ashamed of people like you living in this country infinitely more than I am of the migrants trying to obtain a better life here.

Well said! I 100% agree with you. You wrote that far better than I ever could. :D

[midi2304]

maybe this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/paris-attacks-lay-bare-longtime-muslim-exclusion.html?_r=0) may enlighten you on French Muslims exclusion? This report stemmed from the attacks in Paris in January - just because you didn't experience it when you travelled in France doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

what happened in Paris last night was terrible but it was carried out by a fundamentalist organisation whose one intent in life is to eradicate all infidels including those of muslim extractions whose views are not as radicalised as theirs. Jihadists are evil to the core there is no doubting that but you cannot tar all Muslims and those in the migrant camps with the same brush.

As Dragonfly alludes to, ISIS are to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity - remember this before you generalise an entire religion.

[nicnak]

I really dont know why everyone is so enraged if migrants want to come here for a better life so be it there is a procedure to follow but to just turn up and say let me in is definately outdated, If i make my way to Canada for example paying £1000 for my passage and just expect to be let in they would laugh at me and send me back home! What is the difference oh because i walk across europe i dont like where i live for whatever reason is not a good enough excuse to open the borders and let anyone and everyone in. If you think it is you are sadly one of the delluded! Yes I am sure the majority of the migrants making there way are genuinely seeking a better life but there is a way of doing it and this isnt it. Yes I think the terrorist are very clever and strategic in how they are blending in amongst the migrants and refugees, they wouldn'
t have been able to accomplish what they have if they were stupid. The other thing to throw in the pot to cause people to think is the majority of migrants and refugees are men, why dont they stay and fight for their countries instead of running away expecting others to do it for them!

[the_big_mac]

I really dont know why everyone is so enraged if migrants want to come here for a better life so be it there is a procedure to follow but to just turn up and say let me in is definately outdated, If i make my way to Canada for example paying £1000 for my passage and just expect to be let in they would laugh at me and send me back home! What is the difference oh because i walk across europe i dont like where i live for whatever reason is not a good enough excuse to open the borders and let anyone and everyone in. If you think it is you are sadly one of the delluded! Yes I am sure the majority of the migrants making there way are genuinely seeking a better life but there is a way of doing it and this isnt it. Yes I think the terrorist are very clever and strategic in how they are blending in amongst the migrants and refugees, they wouldn'
t have been able to accomplish what they have if they were stupid. The other thing to throw in the pot to cause people to think is the majority of migrants and refugees are men, why dont they stay and fight for their countries instead of running away expecting others to do it for them!

Hitler would be proud.

[weeker2014]

I really dont know why everyone is so enraged if migrants want to come here for a better life so be it there is a procedure to follow but to just turn up and say let me in is definately outdated, If i make my way to Canada for example paying £1000 for my passage and just expect to be let in they would laugh at me and send me back home! What is the difference oh because i walk across europe i dont like where i live for whatever reason is not a good enough excuse to open the borders and let anyone and everyone in. If you think it is you are sadly one of the delluded! Yes I am sure the majority of the migrants making there way are genuinely seeking a better life but there is a way of doing it and this isnt it. Yes I think the terrorist are very clever and strategic in how they are blending in amongst the migrants and refugees, they wouldn'
t have been able to accomplish what they have if they were stupid. The other thing to throw in the pot to cause people to think is the majority of migrants and refugees are men, why dont they stay and fight for their countries instead of running away expecting others to do it for them!

Not only racist but sexist too. Next time a full war breaks out with the UK, heaven forbid it should ever happen, we will be happy to send them to bomb ur hoose first as you will be quite happy to stay there, not be scared of the consequences for u and ur family, be happy be a jihaddy john to do some attrocities, all because you think you should stay where you are, "not walk across Europe because you dont like where you live" or seek any form of safety and settlement somewhere else. I am sure they will be happy to oblige you.

Personally if I had to walk to another country with my family to protect them and make sure they are safe, you can be rest assured I will do it!

Your comments are moronic to say the very least and pretty disgusting and offensive in general. Nothing you have said is redeeming.

Most of them are men, because the road is long and extremely dangerous. It is much easier for the men to get settled in another country and then get their family safely there. Have you not seen the news with all of the children drowning making the treacherous journey across the water. Also most people cannot afford the ransom the traffickers charge for a whole family so best to send the strongest person, the man. It seems to have passed you by that every one of those men have a mother, probably have sisters, cousins, wives and children, they are not just single men as you see them.

[nicnak]

Weeker2014 i think you a very pathetic little person who has nothing constructive to say but to try to belittle others, I hope you would walk, but i would think most women if you would like me to be sexist would actually think twice before paying £1000 euros to put our children in a rubber dinghy and hope that we would be let in to a country that is soft ! These people migrants that we speak of the majority being men head for easy touches. if they just wanted to escape they could have stayed in any number of countries but no head for the UK ! I am not a religious zealot and i dont infringe whatever beliefs i have on others and i am not a moron, I believe that the governments should look after their own nationals first, I imagine from your pathetic utterings that you have never actually travelled and seen such things as the calais jungle and the antics of some of the migrant males and females, but then again maybe you have and just slept all the way through. I know one thing for sure though my boys would not run away if our country needed protection and neither would I, and also they would never leave their parents, wives and children in the circumstance they are running away from, yes I am sure we require such noble males in our country! I will as stated earlier welcome in any genuine refugees but not migrants cos they want an easy touch! OH and as for being sexist i find your comment "Most of them are men, because the road is long and extremely dangerous." particularly so!
at the end of the day the orignal posting was to highlight how the terrorists have spread and been enabled to infiltrate and cause chaos and misery, this is especially highlighted in the current news if you wish to read it! As I said also previously my heart goes out to the innocent that have been affected in Paris .

[weeker2014]

[QUOTE=nicnak;1135243]Weeker2014 i think you a very pathetic little person who has nothing constructive to say but to try to belittle others, I hope you would walk, but i would think most women if you would like me to be sexist would actually think twice before paying £1000 euros to put our children in a rubber dinghy and hope that we would be let in to a country that is soft ! These people migrants that we speak of the majority being men head for easy touches. if they just wanted to escape they could have stayed in any number of countries but no head for the UK ! I am not a religious zealot and i dont infringe whatever beliefs i have on others and i am not a moron, I believe that the governments should look after their own nationals first, I imagine from your pathetic utterings that you have never actually travelled and seen such things as the calais jungle and the antics of some of the migrant males and females, but then again maybe you have and just slept all the way through. I know one thing for sure though my boys would not run away if our country needed protection and neither would I, and also they would never leave their parents, wives and children in the circumstance they are running away from, yes I am sure we require such noble males in our country! I will as stated earlier welcome in any genuine refugees but not migrants cos they want an easy touch! OH and as for being sexist i find your comment "Most of them are men, because the road is long and extremely dangerous." particularly so!
at the end of the day the orignal posting was to highlight how the terrorists have spread and been enabled to infiltrate and cause chaos and misery, this is especially highlighted in the current news if you wish to read it! As I said also previously my heart goes out to the innocent that have been affected in Paris .[/QUOTE

It is clear from comments on here I am not the only one with a totally differing view. They arent turning up on UK shores in boats, they are travelling to the nearest safe country. Tens of thousands are staying in other countries, not trying to get to the UK and to suggest so is nonsense.

If I was a family I would be happy to be the male to go on the long migration trip rather than letting my wife and kids die trying whilst I sit on my butt in a tent. Thats what a man, father, son and brother would do.

You can rant all you want but at no point have you aligned yourself with the suffering people following the french tragedy. Before you posted there was another post giving sympathies, instead u wanted the opportunity to grandstand on, in my opinion, your racist views.

We created this mess with an illegal war in Iraq. We cannot then sit back and ignore the consequences of that, such as looking after those who are in need, migrants and refugees.

And why do you think I would have slept through something?

[nicnak]

Very brave of you Weeker2014, you obviously are the kind of person that will fight for his family rights and freedom lol, I started the thread saying how horrific it was and you were the one to try to divert it, if you didn't like my comments you could have just passed by but as normal your posts are verging on trolling, but i don't mind like I said originally the terrorist were using the migrants as cover and so it seems I was right! one of them crossed over via greece and headed north! this is why we should question and make defined rules as to who migrates to this beautiful nation of Great Britain, try to say it is any other way you like but if we dont stand up and be counted we cant complain when things going wrong! and incase you didn't or were not aware the definition of a migrant and a refugee are completely different!

[weeker2014]

Very brave of you Weeker2014, you obviously are the kind of person that will fight for his family rights and freedom lol, I started the thread saying how horrific it was and you were the one to try to divert it, if you didn't like my comments you could have just passed by but as normal your posts are verging on trolling, but i don't mind like I said originally the terrorist were using the migrants as cover and so it seems I was right! one of them crossed over via greece and headed north! this is why we should question and make defined rules as to who migrates to this beautiful nation of Great Britain, try to say it is any other way you like but if we dont stand up and be counted we cant complain when things going wrong! and incase you didn't or were not aware the definition of a migrant and a refugee are completely different!

There is only one troll around here given how many peoples backs you have got up today, and it isnt me.

I am also fully aware of the definition between migrant and refugee. Oh one of them, really, one out of how many?

Nobody diverted anything, from your first post you knew your views would get peoples heckles up as you said as much. The person describing your views as Nazi like (Hitler) was bang on the nail.

I have better things to do this evening than have differences with you, such as washing my hair and watching X Factor. You have shown yourself up enough for people to see for themselves what you are like.

[Kodiak]

To make matters worse..........a TGV Train has Crashed in France this afternoon killing 5 people. it never rains but it pours. :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34822666

http://i.imgur.com/XPzl6mY.jpg

[weeker2014]

To make matters worse..........a TGV Train has Crashed in France this afternoon killing 5 people. it never rains but it pours. :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34822666

http://i.imgur.com/XPzl6mY.jpg

I noticed that too. Just adds to the hurt. :(

[midi2304]

Nicnak, you are spectacularly dense to the point I almost feel like you deserve some form of congratulations. For those not keeping up, let me explain why...


I really dont know why everyone is so enraged if migrants want to come here for a better life so be it there is a procedure to follow but to just turn up and say let me in is definately outdated, If i make my way to Canada for example paying £1000 for my passage and just expect to be let in they would laugh at me and send me back home! What is the difference oh because i walk across europe i dont like where i live for whatever reason is not a good enough excuse to open the borders and let anyone and everyone in. If you think it is you are sadly one of the delluded! Yes I am sure the majority of the migrants making there way are genuinely seeking a better life but there is a way of doing it and this isnt it.

I think someone has been watching a few too many episodes of Escape to the Sun. You seem to want to compare you or I wanting to emigrate to Australia or Canada or Spain with someone fleeing a country ripped apart by war in part perpetrated by western countries including the UK. These people are so desperate to escape the ravages of terrorism and soldiers and rape and destruction they will walk thousands of miles with their families (and yes, we'll get to your 'mostly men' statement in a moment) to come to a country we are proud to proclaim Great Britain. On top of this you want them to turn up with a 10% deposit for a three bedroom semi in Dingwall. Maybe we should write a special guide as to exactly how much money someone should have before they are expected to try and escape war in their country - how much money they should have, whether they should have a university degree, whether they have served in the armed forces, etc, etc.


The other thing to throw in the pot to cause people to think is the majority of migrants and refugees are men, why dont they stay and fight for their countries instead of running away expecting others to do it for them!

You want them to stay and fight? Did you see many people staying and fighting last night? Or in the event of overwhelming odds, did people do the only decent thing they could and try and get as far away from the shootings as they could? In Syria, should people stay and fight these state funded terrorists with no weapons or no training? Should they stick around when the main people willing to take on the terrorists there is Assad's regime, it itself a great bastion of human rights enforcement? What the hell is someone meant to do when your options are to fight for Assad against terrorism, fight for the terrorists, hope some of those western air strikes don't land on your house or get the hell out? I'd be interested to know if you have ever been in the military nicnak - I'd guess not.


but i would think most women if you would like me to be sexist would actually think twice before paying £1000 euros to put our children in a rubber dinghy and hope that we would be let in to a country that is soft !

I thank all the deities there are every single day that I don't live in a situation where my wife would have to make this sort of decision for my little girl. If she did though, I'd like to think she would have the fortitude to do whatever it took to get my daughter out of a hostile situation and into safety. I'd hate to be in a position where the only option was to pay someone £1000 for attempted passage to safety in a rubber dinghy or to stay somewhere where a bomb or a bullet were always a moment away. Here's what people forget - we all feel sorry for these migrants moving through Europe but they are relatively speaking the lucky ones. I feel much sorrier for the ones left behind having to deal with a situation perpetuated by the west sticking their noses into a region they have historically destabilised for decades. So yes, I pray to God my wife would have the fortitude to send my girl on that dinghy.


These people migrants that we speak of the majority being men head for easy touches. if they just wanted to escape they could have stayed in any number of countries but no head for the UK!

The majority are men but recent reports put it at around 60% men, the rest being women, children and the elderly. This is mainly due to the horrendous distances involved in walking. I only hope that if the only chance of safety for my wife and child was to leave them and walk thousands of miles in the hopes of finding a safe haven where I could raise the money to allow them to meet me without making the same treacherous journey by foot themselves, I would be able to do it. I doubt I would frankly.


I am not a religious zealot and i dont infringe whatever beliefs i have on others and i am not a moron, I believe that the governments should look after their own nationals first

We should look after our own nationals first yes? Was that the same thought when we sent thousands of our own men and women to the Middle East to die in a conflict that was officially for Weapons of Mass Destruction. Except we now know there was no WMDs. We now know that it was all about oil. I look at my Gulf War Medal and feel shame knowing why we were out there now. Yet you feel we should look after our own first. And now the people from that grossly destabilised region are looking for sanctuary from a war perpetrated by us, you want us to shut our door? Shame on you.

For decades now, we have imposed our will militarily in the Middle East and Eastern Europe often leaving the area in a worse situation than before. In the meantime, we seem unwilling to draw a correlation between these wars and events such as the Twin Towers, the 7/7 bombings and Paris yesterday. And despite those being terrible events, they pale into insignificance in comparison to what we have allowed to happen in these regions. What these terrorists have done is indefensible and inhuman but we as a nation have to accept some responsibility and it's time to pay a very long and expensive moral debt. Might it increase the risk to us? Almost certainly. But compare the concept of risk to someone walking down the street Thurso or Edinburgh or even London compared to the same person walking through Damascus and it isn't even in the same ballpark.

tl;dr - You should be ashamed or yourself nicnak. Now is the time we right the wrongs carried out in our name for people who need us irrespective of colour, race or nationality.

[midi2304]

this beautiful nation of Great Britain

I don't even.

[weeker2014]

Nicnak, you are spectacularly dense to the point I almost feel like you deserve some form of congratulations. For those not keeping up, let me explain why...



I think someone has been watching a few too many episodes of Escape to the Sun. You seem to want to compare you or I wanting to emigrate to Australia or Canada or Spain with someone fleeing a country ripped apart by war in part perpetrated by western countries in the UK. These people are so desperate to escape the ravages of terrorism and soldiers and rape and destruction they will walk thousands of miles with their families (and yes, we'll get to your 'mostly men' statement in a moment) to come to a country we are proud to proclaim Great Britain. On top of this you want them to turn up with a 10% deposit for a three bedroom semi in Dingwall. Maybe we should write a special guide as to exactly how much money someone should have before they are expected to try and escape war in their country - how much money they should have, whether they should have a university degree, whether they have served in the armed forces, etc, etc.



You want them to stay and fight? Did you see many people staying and fighting last night? Or in the event of overwhelming odds, did people do the only decent thing they could and try and get as far away from the shootings as they could? In Syria, should people stay and fight these state funded terrorists with no weapons or no training? Should they stick around when the main people willing to take on the terrorists there is Assad's regime, it itself a great bastion of human rights enforcement? What the hell is someone meant to do when your options are to fight for Assad against terrorism, fight for the terrorists, hope some of those western air strikes don't land on your house or get the hell out? I'd be interested to know if you have ever been in the military nicnak - I'd guess not.



I thank all the deities there are every single day that I don't live in a situation where my wife would have to make this sort of decision for my little girl. If she did though, I'd like to think she would have the fortitude to do whatever it took to get my daughter out of a hostile situation and into safety. I'd hate to be in a position where the only option was to pay someone £1000 for attempted passage to safety in a rubber dinghy or to stay somewhere where a bomb or a bullet were always a moment away. Here's what people forget - we all feel sorry for these migrants moving through Europe but they are relatively speaking the lucky ones. I feel much sorrier for the ones left behind having to deal with a situation perpetuated by the west sticking their noses into a region they have historically destabilised for decades. So yes, I pray to God my wife would have the fortitude to send my girl on that dinghy.



The majority are men but recent reports put it at around 60% men, the rest being women, children and the elderly. This is mainly due to the horrendous distances involved in walking. I only hope that if the only chance of safety for my wife and child was to leave them and walk thousands of miles in the hopes of finding a safe haven where I could raise the money to allow them to meet me without making the same treacherous journey by foot themselves, I would be able to do it. I doubt I would frankly.



We should look after our own nationals first yes? Was that the same thought when we sent thousands of our own men and women to the Middle East to die in a conflict that was officially for Weapons of Mass Destruction. Except we now know there was no WMDs. We now know that it was all about oil. I look at my Gulf War Medal and feel shame knowing why we were out there now. Yet you feel we should look after our own first. And now the people from that grossly destabilised region are looking for sanctuary from a war perpetrated by us, you want us to shut our door? Shame on you.

For decades now, we have imposed our will militarily in the Middle East and Eastern Europe often leaving the area in a worse situation than before. In the meantime, we seem unwilling to draw a correlation between these wars and events such as the Twin Towers, the 7/7 bombings and Paris yesterday. And despite those being terrible events, they pale into insignificance in comparison to what we have allowed to happen in these regions. What these terrorists have done is indefensible and inhuman but we as a nation have to accept some responsibility and it's time to pay a very long and expensive moral debt. Might it increase the risk to us? Almost certainly. But compare the concept of risk to someone walking down the street Thurso or Edinburgh or even London compared to the same person walking through Damascus and it isn't even in the same ballpark.

tl;dr - You should be ashamed or yourself nicnak. Now is the time we right the wrongs carried out in our name for people who need us irrespective of colour, race or nationality.

Well said! Here Here!!

[Tam 2000]

good for you , nicnak, iam with you all the way.

[rich62_uk]

Agree with Tam ......

[porshiepoo]

For what it's worth, here's my opinion:
We now know that at least one of the Paris jihadists entered Paris after claiming refugee status in Greece. how many more have done the same? IS have declared war against all non believers and have straight out declared that this is just the start of their terror campaign so how many innocent people do we allow to be murdered and suffer before we say enough is enough? Before someone has the balls to take the lead and say we are not going to idly sit by and wait for Britains day of reckoning.
IS have stated that there are 'brothers' in the capitals of most European countries waiting and willing to die for what they believe is their calling, this is extreme Islam and all these terrorists are extreme Muslims - am I racist for saying that? Prejudice for saying that? TBH this is one time when I no longer care what people think, it's fact and it needs to finally be acceptable for us to say this.
Does this mean that every Muslim in the UK is a jihadist terrorist? Nope! Does it mean that every Muslim in the UK is a sleeper cell waiting for their glory? Nope! Does it mean that every migrant in France risking their lives to get into this soft country is a terror threat? Nope! Do I bloody well care? Not a bit! Now is the time for the UK to close its borders to everyone until IS has been dealt with.
This is not a time for us to pussy foot around the subject, pander to Muslim sensitivities nor show more concern for what seems politically correct than for the British people living in Great Britain. Now is the time for action, action that may not sit well with 100% of the population but which is necessary to show IS that we will not tolerate this any longer, that we will take whatever action is necessary to ensure the obliteration of every Jihadist extremist in this country and every other country worldwide.
People need to stop living in the past - we did this, we did that, we sent men here or there or we imposed our military will here or there - living in the past will prevent us from acting in the future and taking the action that needs taking. Stop seeing this as our just punishment for whatever we have or have not done in the past. All of that rubbish needs setting aside and we need to fight for our own liberty now before it is too late.

Niknak has very valid opinions on what is happening here and now and can see past the pull on the heartstrings to the real threat to the UK. It's going to take some real guts from the powers that be to obliterate IS and every other extremist but I for one will be raising the roof for this to be done.

[nicnak]

Thanks Porshiepoo,Rich62uk and Tam 200 sometimes you just have to say it as it is and ignore the idiots and just hope that they or anyone else get hurt due to ignoring the wolf knocking at the door! Hopefully our government and Leaders from around the world will now sit up take notice and do something instead of pussyfooting around all the do gooders and idiots!

[midi2304]

People need to stop living in the past - we did this, we did that, we sent men here or there or we imposed our military will here or there - living in the past will prevent us from acting in the future and taking the action that needs taking.

Mere days after Remembrance Sunday too.

He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it.

'Repeating it' in this case being men and women in UK military uniforms dying on foreign soil. I'll point out here that infinitely more British citizens died chasing WMDs that didn't exist than have died at the hands of IS. But hey, let's forget the past and send the troops and bombs back in. Guaranteed to work this time round. Never mind that history proves it never works. Ignore that. Let's have at these harlots!

[weeker2014]

Mere days after Remembrance Sunday too.

He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it.

'Repeating it' in this case being men and women in UK military uniforms dying on foreign soil. I'll point out here that infinitely more British citizens died chasing WMDs that didn't exist than have died at the hands of IS. But hey, let's forget the past and send the troops and bombs back in. Guaranteed to work this time round. Never mind that history proves it never works. Ignore that. Let's have at these harlots!

Well said. We destabilsed Iraq, we destabilised Libya and now we are doing the same in Syria. Were Saddam and Gadaffi angels? No, but at least with them in charge we were left alone and would have sensibly plodded away in Afghanistan to fight Bin Laden with Afghan support.

The discussion or problem with nicnac was not about Islamic extremists, it was about her saying ALL refugees and migrants are terrorists and criminals which is simply untrue. They are desperate people fleeing for their lives, not only from bombings but also from ISIS taking over their countries. We are rightly up in arms about an attack on France but they are subjected to it daily from ISIS and other organisations, none of it their own doing.

In addition a couple of the French terrorists may have been migrants through Greece. The very large proportion are French citizens either living in France or Belgium and nothing to do with migrants.

You can grandstand all you want but I stick by my view that what nicnac said was disgusting and wrong only hours after the attacks. She should have been showing support instead of wrongly trying to apportion blame to desperate migrants and refugees.

I have no doubt with the amoubt of vacant council properties in Caithness we will be seeing quite a few refugees and I hope they arent treated like nicna, tam and porshiepoo would.

[rogermellie]

Now is the time for the UK to close its borders to everyone until IS has been dealt with.

bit like locking the door after the horse has bolted i'm afraid, IS (and their home grown support) are already in the UK


Now is the time for action, action that may not sit well with 100% of the population but which is necessary to show IS that we will not tolerate this any longer, that we will take whatever action is necessary to ensure the obliteration of every Jihadist extremist in this country and every other country worldwide.

and just how will carpet bombing IS (and lots of innocent civilians) wipe out extremism ?


People need to stop living in the past - we did this, we did that, we sent men here or there or we imposed our military will here or there - living in the past will prevent us from acting in the future and taking the action that needs taking. Stop seeing this as our just punishment for whatever we have or have not done in the past. All of that rubbish needs setting aside and we need to fight for our own liberty now before it is too late.

were not living in the past, were trying to LEARN from our past, especially the mistakes. Where's the sense in repeating the same strategy that has caused this in the first place ?


It's going to take some real guts from the powers that be to obliterate IS and every other extremist but I for one will be raising the roof for this to be done.

From the Falklands right up to Libya and the current mess in the Middle East had nothing to do with guts, the men and women on the ground are the ones with the guts, not 'the powers that be'

[nicnak]

Weeker 2014 are you just completely stupid or unable to read and understand? My first post in this thread
"With the horrific atrocities that have happened in Paris yesterday my heart and thoughts go out to all those affected and to the people of France. And I hope all those do-gooders that were shipping and taking aid to the migrants in Calais etc can take on board what they have contributed towards! It has been proven over and over in the last few weeks that among the migrants were terrorists but these people even when warned welcomed them, clothed and fed them and now have to bear this on their conscience. Not every migrant is a terrorist but they were among them and I am sure will have contributed in some form or other towards the weeks events. I am sure some people will not agree with the post or be even offended by it but if the cap fits wear it, the truth hurts and perhaps some lessons can be learnt!

where may I ask do i state that all migrants and refugees are terrorists it seems to me that before you jump in trying to stir up hate yourself, you should at least do someone the courtesy of reading and assimilating their post first. You have already proved what a man you are/are not depending on ones opinion, my post clearly set out exactly what i meant; it was not hatred it was not racist or having any bias whatsoever it was simply stating my opinion , I don't ask you to like it but i do request that if you are going to try to belittle or comment you read the post properly first! and secondly as Porshiepoo correctly stated at least one of the terrorist came through using the migrant route into greece ! they are facts so stop wittering away trying to justify your little tantrum on unread and understood posts and go back to sleep !

[midi2304]

and secondly as Porshiepoo correctly stated at least one of the terrorist came through using the migrant route into greece ! they are facts so stop wittering away trying to justify your little tantrum on unread and understood posts and go back to sleep !

Not true. Read this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/15/why-syrian-refugee-passport-found-at-paris-attack-scene-must-be-treated-with-caution?CMP=fb_gu
(http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/15/why-syrian-refugee-passport-found-at-paris-attack-scene-must-be-treated-with-caution?CMP=fb_gu)
A passport was found of someone who had passed through Greece. All current reports are suggesting this is almost certainly a hoax put in place by the terrorists or was stolen. It's highly unlikely someone planning a terrorist attack in a matter of weeks in Paris would expose themselves to potentially being flagged by customs while passing from country to country.

[nicnak]

Just because you dont agree with something doesnt mean it is wrong! I am sure it will all come out in time, but perhaps they werent bothered cos if they were going to blow themselves up they wouldnt be identifiable or have to answer any questions would they?

[midi2304]

Just because you dont agree with something doesnt mean it is wrong! I am sure it will all come out in time, but perhaps they werent bothered cos if they were going to blow themselves up they wouldnt be identifiable or have to answer any questions would they?

So they go through Greece four weeks before the attack and risk being spotted by customs when we already know they were on international watch lists risking blowing the lid on the entire event in the first place?

You stated as fact that one of attackers was a someone who had taken the refugee route through Greece. This is not a fact. It is a supposition based on some pretty shaky evidence as I have said. So yes, what you have stated as fact is wrong. It 'could' be true but the evidence certainly points to it not. Feel free to state that it is a fact to support your horrendous argument however.

[weeker2014]

Weeker 2014 are you just completely stupid or unable to read and understand? My first post in this thread
"With the horrific atrocities that have happened in Paris yesterday my heart and thoughts go out to all those affected and to the people of France. And I hope all those do-gooders that were shipping and taking aid to the migrants in Calais etc can take on board what they have contributed towards! It has been proven over and over in the last few weeks that among the migrants were terrorists but these people even when warned welcomed them, clothed and fed them and now have to bear this on their conscience. Not every migrant is a terrorist but they were among them and I am sure will have contributed in some form or other towards the weeks events. I am sure some people will not agree with the post or be even offended by it but if the cap fits wear it, the truth hurts and perhaps some lessons can be learnt!

where may I ask do i state that all migrants and refugees are terrorists it seems to me that before you jump in trying to stir up hate yourself, you should at least do someone the courtesy of reading and assimilating their post first. You have already proved what a man you are/are not depending on ones opinion, my post clearly set out exactly what i meant; it was not hatred it was not racist or having any bias whatsoever it was simply stating my opinion , I don't ask you to like it but i do request that if you are going to try to belittle or comment you read the post properly first! and secondly as Porshiepoo correctly stated at least one of the terrorist came through using the migrant route into greece ! they are facts so stop wittering away trying to justify your little tantrum on unread and understood posts and go back to sleep !

Oh my your really do just keep digging yourself in!!! Maybe you should read your own post before copying it.

Firstly "And I hope all those do-gooders that were shipping and taking aid to the migrants in Calais etc can take on board what they have contributed towards! It has been proven over and over in the last few weeks that among the migrants were terrorists but these people even when warned welcomed them, clothed and fed them and now have to bear this on their conscience." - it really isn't good grammar to start a sentence with "and". In this you are having a go at decent people for helping all migrants by giving them aid. Would you like for them to be shed like sheep - you look like a terrorist, you don't - giving those who don't the aid? Do decent people who are trying to make a better, safe life deserve to run around naked and starving? I really think not. When you tarred everyone with the same brush, you yourself put them all in the category of terrorists and no worth our compassion. If in the above you are not showing hatred, then I would dread to think how low you would go to decipher what hatred is.

Nobody is trying to belittle you, I am simply pointing out that I find your comments completely contemptuous and disgusting. I am having not having a tantrum, simply calmly calling you out on what you said on a public forum. If you don't want discussion, don't post your views publicly.

So far from what I can read 2 out of 8-10 terrorists came through the migrant route. That is 20%-25% with a whopping 70%-75% not having come via that route and were French citizens living in Belgium and France. This is fact, not something you have simply made up to try and make your facts fit and generalise every refugee and migrant and put them all in the same basket. Some terrorists are migrants and refugees but NOT all refugees and migrants are terrorists. It's the equivalent of saying all Scots are criminals because a small proportion are. Your reasoning is nonsense.

You do seem to think I sleep a lot.

[weeker2014]

So they go through Greece four weeks before the attack and risk being spotted by customs when we already know they were on international watch lists risking blowing the lid on the entire event in the first place?

You stated as fact that one of attackers was a someone who had taken the refugee route through Greece. This is not a fact. It is a supposition based on some pretty shaky evidence as I have said. So yes, what you have stated as fact is wrong. It 'could' be true but the evidence certainly points to it not. Feel free to state that it is a fact to support your horrendous argument however.

It also doesn't seem highly likely that a plot which has been in the planning for months and months would be carried out by people who had migrated only weeks before and had no guarantee of timescale of when they would get through the migrant route to France.

[the_big_mac]

Terrorism is designed to spread fear and provoke reaction. This is all evident in the above, its been repeated throughout history and millions upon millions have lost their lives as a result.

What exactly do you think the solution to religious fundamentalism is? Not just Islamic based, but ALL religion. Every war on the planet is based on opposing sets of beliefs where division has been created, and manifested, to justify murder.

It could be argued that the extreme reaction of a handful of posters on here is fundamentalism, be it christian, jewish, atheist....whatever. Your sentiments certainly do not represent mine, yet its your fear that will continue to empower terrorism.

Your fear's and insecurities' create a mandate for our governments to repeat the past.


And just incase you still think we are overrun with Muslims, close the Daily Mail for a change and find some other sources to base your opinions. http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/01/daily-chart-2?fsrc=scn%2Ftw%2Fte%2Fbl%2Fed%2Fislamineurope

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter...........never has this been truer than the present.

[the_big_mac]

Another.

More up to date this time.

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21678517-come-france-starts-coming-terms-its-worst-ever-terrorist-attack?fsrc=scn/fb/te/bl/ed/francestartscomingtoterms

Please read the entire article.

[nicnak]

It has been proven over and over in the last few weeks that among the migrants were terrorists but these people even when warned welcomed them, clothed and fed them and now have to bear this on their conscience. Not every migrant is a terrorist but they were among them and I am sure will have contributed in some form or other towards the weeks events. I am sure some people will not agree with the post or be even offended by it butif the cap fits wear it, the truth hurts and perhaps some lessons can be learnt!

I am sorry you dont understand what is written Weeker 2014 but i clearly say " not every migrant is a terrorist" I do say that if the terrorist were among the migrants and refugess at calais etc, where the aid has gone, do gooders have added to the state of things today, basically my opinion is if the dogooders didnt up and go and give so easily to people they know nothing about then the migrants etc wouldnt come to these areas so easily. My attitude and i really dont care who does and doesn't agree, is before jumping in sending aid to migrants should give to those at home, I do think genuine refugees should be helped and i have no problem with that but call it digging myself in whatever At least I have the guts to say what I believe and know that others believe too!

migrant
ˈmʌɪɡr(ə)nt/
noun
1.
a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions.

refugee
rɛfjʊˈdʒiː/Submit
noun
a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

[weeker2014]

I am sorry you dont understand what is written Weeker 2014 but i clearly say " not every migrant is a terrorist" I do say that if the terrorist were among the migrants and refugess at calais etc, where the aid has gone, do gooders have added to the state of things today, basically my opinion is if the dogooders didnt up and go and give so easily to people they know nothing about then the migrants etc wouldnt come to these areas so easily. My attitude and i really dont care who does and doesn't agree, is before jumping in sending aid to migrants should give to those at home, I do think genuine refugees should be helped and i have no problem with that but call it digging myself in whatever At least I have the guts to say what I believe and know that others believe too!

migrant
ˈmʌɪɡr(ə)nt/
noun
1.
a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions.

refugee
rɛfjʊˈdʒiː/Submit
noun
a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

Frankly I think your views are extremist.

Nice to see you are now trying to shed migrants and refugees like sheep. I reckon there is a very grey fine line between the 2 at the moment. Concentration camps spring to mind and we all know how abhorrent that is.

I am glad to be one of the "do gooders" as you put it and have some humanity in my bones. You can argue and try to defend what you said until you are blue in the face, it doesn't change how outrageous your comments were less than 24 hours after 130 people died. It was and is the time for love and understanding. Extremist comments like yours just make decent migrants who have been through so much worry about for themselves and their families.

[gerry4]

We now know that at least one of the Paris jihadists entered Paris after claiming refugee status in Greece.
e.

We dont know this. What we know is a passport was found. Who owned the passport? How many terrorists take their passport with them? One of the terrorist was named was reported to be an egyptian. It has now been proved that he was in actual fact a victim of the attack.

The only identified terrorists are residents of Belgium & have been for many years. So far none have been identified as any fleeing syrian refugees.

Lets find out the facts before condemning people.

Why not read something else than rags http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/15/why-syrian-refugee-passport-found-at-paris-attack-scene-must-be-treated-with-caution?
Also the US helped fund these terrorist organisations yet again http://levantreport.com/2015/08/06/former-dia-chief-michael-flynn-says-rise-of-islamic-state-was-a-willful-decision-and-defends-accuracy-of-2012-memo/

[squidge]

Some me of you know my family live in France and have done for many years. I was shocked beyond belief and frightened for those I love this weekend. My heart goes out to those who were not able to speak to those they love and be reassured, in Paris and elsewhere terrorists have struck including Beirut, the day before.

The people who were responsible for the attacks in Paris were terrorists. The people they killed were white, black, Muslim, Christian, of no faith, many were French citizens, some were immigrants, some were visitors. When the terrorists were German in the 70s we didn't say we should ban all Germans from entering Britain, when they were Irish, we didn't demand that the Irish guy down the street accepted responsibility for the terrorist attacks being carried out, we didn't ban Irish people from visiting Manchester. As these terrorists appeared to live in Belgium, perhaps we should somehow annexe Belgium and make sure Belgian residents can't come into our country.

The terrorist works to create division And hate and unfortunately as has been said before, our foreign policy decisions have made that easier in some respects. For those of you jumping on the "close the borders" bandwagon and demanding action to prevent refugees coming here It is worth remembering that those people fleeing Syria and arriving desperate, destitute and terrified are fleeing the same corrupt, power hungry murderers that carried out Friday's attacks. This is a struggle for power and religion is a tool terrorists are using to create confusion fear and hate. We must not let them win. We must continue to support refugees with our donations and through offering safe passage and places for them to go.

If we don't do that then the terrorists win.

[weeker2014]

I am sorry you dont understand what is written Weeker 2014 but i clearly say " not every migrant is a terrorist" I do say that if the terrorist were among the migrants and refugess at calais etc, where the aid has gone, do gooders have added to the state of things today, basically my opinion is if the dogooders didnt up and go and give so easily to people they know nothing about then the migrants etc wouldnt come to these areas so easily. My attitude and i really dont care who does and doesn't agree, is before jumping in sending aid to migrants should give to those at home, I do think genuine refugees should be helped and i have no problem with that but call it digging myself in whatever At least I have the guts to say what I believe and know that others believe too!

migrant
ˈmʌɪɡr(ə)nt/
noun
1.
a person who moves from one place to another in order to find work or better living conditions.

refugee
rɛfjʊˈdʒiː/Submit
noun
a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster.

This is what happens when you make extremist and racist remarks online, singling out one group such as 'migrants and refugees not welcome':

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/475794/Bicester-Paris-terror-attacks-ISIS-132-dead-shootings-explosions-racism-Muslims-banned

I am sure you will appreciate the choice of rag rather than something with lots of big words in it.

[midi2304]

Some me of you know my family live in France and have done for many years. I was shocked beyond belief and frightened for those I love this weekend. My heart goes out to those who were not able to speak to those they love and be reassured, in Paris and elsewhere terrorists have struck including Beirut, the day before.

The people who were responsible for the attacks in Paris were terrorists. The people they killed were white, black, Muslim, Christian, of no faith, many were French citizens, some were immigrants, some were visitors. When the terrorists were German in the 70s we didn't say we should ban all Germans from entering Britain, when they were Irish, we didn't demand that the Irish guy down the street accepted responsibility for the terrorist attacks being carried out, we didn't ban Irish people from visiting Manchester. As these terrorists appeared to live in Belgium, perhaps we should somehow annexe Belgium and make sure Belgian residents can't come into our country.

The terrorist works to create division And hate and unfortunately as has been said before, our foreign policy decisions have made that easier in some respects. For those of you jumping on the "close the borders" bandwagon and demanding action to prevent refugees coming here It is worth remembering that those people fleeing Syria and arriving desperate, destitute and terrified are fleeing the same corrupt, power hungry murderers that carried out Friday's attacks. This is a struggle for power and religion is a tool terrorists are using to create confusion fear and hate. We must not let them win. We must continue to support refugees with our donations and through offering safe passage and places for them to go.

If we don't do that then the terrorists win.

Fantastic post, well said. Thanks Squidge.

[BetterTogether]

It's quite right that we accept asylum seekers within the EU but at the same time given the crisis now beginning to unfold with Terrorist attacks being waged against civilians across the globe, it is also right that we take sensible security precautions to protect the civilian population from further outrages.

Closing the the borders has not been realistically proposed but increased checks at border is a sensible precaution as is vetting those who wish to enter the country. No one is realistically suggesting that every person fleeing war is a terrorist but it is a method Isis has already stated it is using and prepared to use. Given that this has been stated already it is wise to place these people within a safe environment initially until suitable checks can be made to verify who they are.

Squidge is quite correct when she states terrorists aim to divide and create fear. Isis wish for no more than the western way of life to come to an end. During the 70s/80s we didn't blame every Irish person for the atrocities perpetrated by terrorist but the security services did keep a very close eye on anyone with even vague sympathies towards terror groups.

Despite all their best work some still got through and that will alas continue to be the case.

It is no good to debate,shouting down and hurling abuse at anyone who you disagree with that does not resolve the problem, nor does harking back to past times and pointing fingers at historical events that may or may not have been the cause.
What this nation now has to deal with is the harsh reality that vigilance is required by everyone for suspicious activity, not dramatic over reaction but cautious pragmatic observation of new people or existing ones whose actions draw attention to themselves.

Frequently terrorists will live within communities and be totally unassuming to most but still provide some clue, the public has a role to play but his does not mean vigilantism is required or acceptable.

Be sure we in the westernised countries are now at war with Isis, fortunately for most it's icy death claw will never touch us but the security services will now be hard pressed to protect us all. Our Police and Military will be working to protect the communities we live in.

This doesn't mean we capitulate and hide indoors in fear nor does it mean we attack people who are in some way different. What it does mean is we accept the realities that there are people who wish nothing more than to do our society harm we become vigilant and supportive.

There is no reason for us not to accept asylum seekers and refugees but our government must alway put the safety and security of the U.K. Population first and utmost. If this requires a few delays and slowing down in the processing of these people then as long as they are safely out of the war zone, being fed, clothed and well treated who in their right mind could say the balance should not fall in favour of those in western countries whose safety must come first.


We should all pay respects to the people of Paris and join together in solidarity.

[Fulmar]

Absolutely right. This thread, I thought, was about supporting the people of Paris- can we all just agree to do that for now, only days after such horrendous atrocities.

[porshiepoo]

Mere days after Remembrance Sunday too.

He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it.

'Repeating it' in this case being men and women in UK military uniforms dying on foreign soil. I'll point out here that infinitely more British citizens died chasing WMDs that didn't exist than have died at the hands of IS. But hey, let's forget the past and send the troops and bombs back in. Guaranteed to work this time round. Never mind that history proves it never works. Ignore that. Let's have at these harlots!


Wow, so you think that we are remembering and honouring those military men and women that dies for our freedom by allowing the risk of jihadi terrorists onto our soil? Seriously? You think that is what my family members and umpteen other family members died for?

[porshiepoo]

Some me of you know my family live in France and have done for many years. I was shocked beyond belief and frightened for those I love this weekend. My heart goes out to those who were not able to speak to those they love and be reassured, in Paris and elsewhere terrorists have struck including Beirut, the day before.

The people who were responsible for the attacks in Paris were terrorists. The people they killed were white, black, Muslim, Christian, of no faith, many were French citizens, some were immigrants, some were visitors. When the terrorists were German in the 70s we didn't say we should ban all Germans from entering Britain, when they were Irish, we didn't demand that the Irish guy down the street accepted responsibility for the terrorist attacks being carried out, we didn't ban Irish people from visiting Manchester. As these terrorists appeared to live in Belgium, perhaps we should somehow annexe Belgium and make sure Belgian residents can't come into our country.

The terrorist works to create division And hate and unfortunately as has been said before, our foreign policy decisions have made that easier in some respects. For those of you jumping on the "close the borders" bandwagon and demanding action to prevent refugees coming here It is worth remembering that those people fleeing Syria and arriving desperate, destitute and terrified are fleeing the same corrupt, power hungry murderers that carried out Friday's attacks. This is a struggle for power and religion is a tool terrorists are using to create confusion fear and hate. We must not let them win. We must continue to support refugees with our donations and through offering safe passage and places for them to go.

If we don't do that then the terrorists win.

While I understand your theory and empathy Squidge, I wholeheartedly disagree with a lot of what you say.
I agree that Jihadist terrorists are not concerned with the ethnicity of who they kill - if they kill a Muslim they consider that Muslim to be grateful for their sacifice or a Non true Muslim that deserved to die, any other religion deserves to die full stop BUT the fact is that all Jihadi terrorists are extreme Muslims, there is no denying that and while that does not and should not condemn ALL Muslims it does leave a distrust in the mouths of many.
Many extremists are currently in this country waiting their call for sacrifice, these extremists live their lives as Muslims and view Christians etc as infidels. How do we filter these extremists out from the those who wish us no harm? We can't! But what we can do is shut our borders to all immigrants and Syrian refugees to reduce the risk of further extremists landing on our soil.

Jihadi terrorists are a completely different breed of terrorist to any other the world has seen since Hitler. This is a religiously driven terror campaign and while the majority of people may complain that this has nothing to do with religion it actually does. We are so concerned with absolving Islam and insist it is a peaceful religion but it's how Muslims interpret the text of the Koran that matters. ISIS is not just a collection of psycopaths, they control areas larger than Great Britain and they are a religious group with carefully considered beliefs. They have an end point and if we want to defeat them we have to understand them - to refer to them as Non- Islamic and/or deny their religious nature would be a strategic disaster on our part.

[midi2304]

Wow, so you think that we are remembering and honouring those military men and women that dies for our freedom by allowing the risk of jihadi terrorists onto our soil? Seriously? You think that is what my family members and umpteen other family members died for?

You'd think someone whose family had suffered so much due to military action would be a little more reserved when the 'Bomb the Arabs' crowd do the rounds. Clearly not.

[midi2304]

This is a religiously driven terror campaign and while the majority of people may complain that this has nothing to do with religion it actually does.


As Dragonfly alludes to, ISIS are to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity - remember this before you generalise an entire religion.

We already covered this. Stop equating ISIS with Islam. It's a nonsense argument perpetuated by Daily Mail readers. Did people equate the IRA with Catholicism? Of course they didn't. IRA = Catholics does not mean Catholics = IRA.

[cptdodger]

There is a minute's silence being held Europe-wide to remember victims of Friday's attacks in Paris. This will be at 11am (GMT). Please show some respect for the poor souls that lost their lives, and the injured still fighting for their lives. That is what is important.

[Fulmar]

I have a cousin who lives in Paris. This is what she wrote:

We are fine, don't worry. Sorry not to have replied earlier but we were shellshocked, as you could imagine. We heard the gunfire - and, like everybody else, thought it was just Chinese firecrackers although wondered why as you don't usually hear them except at Chinese New Year. One of the massacres was only a couple of streets back from the canal -one with a profusion of ethnic and reasonably priced bars and restaurants. As it happens it isn't one of our particular haunts but I don't even want to think about how we would feel if it had been any of the other local streets where we have been regular customers for years...

[nicnak]

Not only racist but sexist too. Next time a full war breaks out with the UK, heaven forbid it should ever happen, we will be happy to send them to bomb ur hoose first as you will be quite happy to stay there, not be scared of the consequences for u and ur family, be happy be a jihaddy john to do some attrocities, all because you think you should stay where you are, "not walk across Europe because you dont like where you live" or seek any form of safety and settlement somewhere else. I am sure they will be happy to oblige you."

Weeker 2014 I have actually re read the posts i have posted on this thread and I am very certain I have posted nothing racist or extreme, all I have said if you care to re read is that any migrants should have the correct paperwork and go through the correct channels to get in to the UK, that is not awful or nasty it is procedures that are in place to ensure or protect as much as possible the citizens and country of Great Britain. I am a very well educated person and I have traveled the world not on package holidays and have lived in other European countries. I have said time upon time I will willingly help refugees but all you have done is name call, make assumptions and derogatory remarks on other people views. your quote above is proof of this , If you took the care to read the posts you would see that and also realize that your assumptions and stating I am a jihadist are completely out of order and could actually be construed as defamation. Perhaps you do not agree with the posts but to resort to this kind of behavior is pathetic and necessary.


Migrants are crossing Europes borders by boat by the hundreds of thousands. How do you figure those crossing our borders are criminals? The only thing that will get rid of hate is love, the entire tone of your posts goes against that. Hate only breeds hate!

yet another example of you twisting my comments , I stated the migrants attempting to enter the UK Illegally , breaking into vehicles and destroying property were criminals, if someone in Wick or any other town attempted to break into a vehicle they would be classed as comitting criminal offences! I did not say all migrants were criminals.
Further more the line between refugees and migrants is a fine line but still there is still a line!
I am not going to say anymore on this matter as obviously some people are so outdated and unaware of what is happening in the real world that they will never be able to hold a decent conversation or debate. So they should pull their heads out of where they are now and smell the roses!

[weeker2014]

It is quite wrong for people to make sweeping statements about others, defaming their character and then close a thread so they have no right of reply.

This is the place for the continuation and right of reply for the 'Paris Tragedy' thread.

[weeker2014]

Nicnak there are many many points I could pull you up on in your last post before you closed the thread on the Paris Tragedy, however, I would only like one answered.

Could you please explain to me, exactly where I called you a Jihadist?

I believe the word I used was extremist, in that I found your views to be extremist and my mind has not changed on that in the slightest. As you are so keen on definitions:

extremist


a person who holds extreme political or religious views, especially one who advocates illegal, violent, or other extreme action.







http://forum.caithness.org/showthread.php?248075-Paris-Tragedy/page4

You are the one who is outdated!

[Niall Fernie]

I've reopened the thread and merged the other one into this one.

Sorry about that, miscommunication.

[rogermellie]

well done Niall

je suis Charlie, NikNak, je suis Charlie

[porshiepoo]

We already covered this. Stop equating ISIS with Islam. It's a nonsense argument perpetuated by Daily Mail readers. Did people equate the IRA with Catholicism? Of course they didn't. IRA = Catholics does not mean Catholics = IRA.


Not ALL Muslims are terrorists but ALL terrorists are Muslims.
To say ISIS are not Islamic is ridiculous to the extreme and completely ignorant. They may be a peversion of Islam but they are Islam all the same.
BTW I do not read the Daily Mail.

[weeker2014]

I've reopened the thread and merged the other one into this one.

Sorry about that, miscommunication.

Thank you Niall

[weeker2014]

Not ALL Muslims are terrorists but ALL terrorists are Muslims.
To say ISIS are not Islamic is ridiculous to the extreme and completely ignorant. They may be a peversion of Islam but they are Islam all the same.
BTW I do not read the Daily Mail.

To be fair I think the Jihaddies have a view of Islam that many Muslims would not agree with. They have taken a religion and twisted it to meet their needs so they have something to fight in the name of.

In other words they are NOT Islamic in the true sense, but are following perverse Islamism.

I think what Midi meant is that the terrorists view is not true Islam and shouldnt be associated with it.

I could say today I am going shopping in the name of Islam. Is it really in the name of Islam? No.

[porshiepoo]

You'd think someone whose family had suffered so much due to military action would be a little more reserved when the 'Bomb the Arabs' crowd do the rounds. Clearly not.


Who said 'bomb the arabs' other than you? Certainly not me!
Yes I have military family - RAF, Navy, Police etc and I also remember what it was like living with the threat of IRA bombings, I remember what it was like for us in England when we were in genuine fear and I remember all too well the underground bombings.
Should this make me more compassionate to those Syrian refugees? Probably, yes. Does it? Hell yes! But does this mean I want us to consider the plight of those refugees above and beyond the safety of our own country? No and tbh I do not give one hoot if that makes me racist or prejudice in anyones eyes.
Just because these extremists are already here does not mean that we shouldn't shut our borders while there is significant threat that more will filter through.
Do I think we should be more aggressive in military action against IS? Wholeheartedly yes. But we won't because we have become a pussy nation that reacts instead of defends - we may react with more force once there has been another mass murder in this country but until then we will pretend to do what the big wigs believe is justifiable, probably more afraid of being sued for the death of a jihadist than having the balls to defend our country before they get a chance to attack.
IS are showing the world of the power they believe they have and what do we do? Absolutely nothing because there are too many countries whose opinions have to be considered. We need to show IS that we will fight their terror with a reckoning of our own, they need to know their days are numbered and they need to know that every western country will unite to exterminate them.

[midi2304]

ALL terrorists are Muslims.

Do you seriously believe all terrorists are Muslims? Every single one? You can't seriously believe this. That is literally the most ridiculous statement yet in a thread full of ridiculous statements.

[porshiepoo]

Do you seriously believe all terrorists are Muslims? Every single one? You can't seriously believe this. That is literally the most ridiculous statement yet in a thread full of ridiculous statements.


Totally agree, I made a very flippant comment there and you're right it was a ridiculous statement. In answer to your question No, I do not believe that all terrorists are Muslim.

[weeker2014]

I would just like to clarify my thinking on a couple of points. Some have noted that my earlier posts may have come across as aggressive and that was really not my intention, I will however fiercely defend my beliefs and call people out where I think what they are saying is complete and utter nonsense, indefensible and in my view extremist in their comments.

My view is that we should do all we can to help refugees and migrants and not put them in general boxes where they are all referred to as criminals and terrorists, and are the blight of European society. These people are fleeing their countries because of atrocities against them, not only by the terror of ISIS in their own countries but because we are also guilty of dropping bombs on their heads. These people need all of the support that we can give them as a society and provide them with safety and a better life where we can.

However, there are many ways and means of achieving this which does NOT mean letting people flow across the borders unchecked. There needs to be a process in place where once they come into the country they can go through a vetting procedure to ensure not only safety for us, but also safety for them as they will also be living in this country and be subjected to exactly the same terror threats that we are. I see little point is putting down migrants in camps, there should be a way where we can disperse those camps in a shared way to countries and go through the vetting system. If found in that process that they are not migrants or genuine refugees then too damn right they should be sent back to their own country. There is a huge difference between migrants from countries outside the UK which are not war torn, and we all know where those countries are, and migrants and refugees from those war torn countries.

The only way to cure this is through compassion, understanding and love. I am sure if the boot was on the other foot we would expect that from other countries we tried to go to for the sake of our lives and families. Generalising these people and tarring them all with the same brush is ridiculous. I stand by my comments on single male migrants etc, simply because that is what is happening.

Nothing which has happened in France has led me to believe it was perpetuated by an influx of migrants over the past months, and was entirely home grown in France and Belgium as has been widely reported. Therefor I do not believe that these issues should be put together. Terror is one thing, the attacks in France is part of that but the migrant/refugee crisis is entirely another.

I read today in the P & J that 30 family will start to arrive in January, many being placed in Caithness due to the excess of unused housing stock. I really hope that we will welcome these people into our communities, engage with them, show them love and compassion and allow them to integrate. When there is no integration is when problems begin, and as always what people do not know about something, such as the issues of other or culture, they just make up and cause division.

Love NOT Hate!

[gerry4]

Not ALL Muslims are terrorists but ALL terrorists are Muslims.
To say ISIS are not Islamic is ridiculous to the extreme and completely ignorant. They may be a peversion of Islam but they are Islam all the same.
BTW I do not read the Daily Mail.

By this logic all Catholics & protestants during the irish troubles were terrorists wanting to kill each other?

[rich62_uk]

It was obvious that porshipoo was referring to ISIS terrorist.

[rich62_uk]

HA HA I got bad rep for the above comment :eek: Some people need to get a life this is the second bad rep of this thread ! I think I will go cry in my cup of tea :lol:

[rich62_uk]

You do not know me so dont dare judge me. You have no idea how I feel about the poor souls lost. Even people who lose close loved ones have times of laughter or anger etc. I thank God I am not in their shoes.

[rich62_uk]

And as I had commented on the thread I was answering on my behalf not the others as I am not them and do not know them. So there you go.

[rich62_uk]

If you read my comment properly you would see that I did not. I was just answering on my behalf I will let others (if they can be bothered) to put you straight on theirs.

[bekisman]

Sometimes I despair. Be aware that before I say what I am about to say, I am a former Royal Naval submariner who has fought in the Middle East in the late 90s, early 00s, just for context.

Here's what has happened in the past 30 years. We have been parading ourselves to the world as 'Great Britain' and bombing other countries with the justification that they are living their lives incorrectly. We have taken some self-imposed moral high ground with the justification that we can send troops into these countries, arm certain sides and claim that their moral values are wrong all the while proclaiming that we know better because we are Great Britain.

Then we have the audacity to sit and complain when these same people, desperate to escape these atrocities that are happening every single day in the likes of Syria, want to escape for a life in a country we constantly proclaim to be the better place.

The hypocrisy is simply astounding.

If you think people are walking thousands of miles to bomb Paris, you are a moron. If you think that well armed and well funded terrorists are using the migration of people desperate for a better life in the West as a cover then, sure, of course they are. If you are then suggesting we should stop taking migrants from the very countries we are bombing to minimise the chances of terrorism from terrorists attacking us because we bomb their countries...? Nicnak, you are an absolute disgrace and I am ashamed of people like you living in this country infinitely more than I am of the migrants trying to obtain a better life here.

Just a thought "I am a former Royal Naval submariner who has fought in the Middle East in the late 90s, early 00s, just for context" go on, tell us what a 'silent service' chappie was doing on dry land?

[midi2304]

Just a thought "I am a former Royal Naval submariner who has fought in the Middle East in the late 90s, early 00s, just for context" go on, tell us what a 'silent service' chappie was doing on dry land?

You've got to be kidding me right? You have to have stepped foot on land and fought that way to have served in operational theatre? I was in a submarine in the Gulf that took part in the conflict. Do I need to post a picture of my Gulf War Medal for proof? Are you for real? If a pilot takes off from Cyprus, drops bombs in Iraq and lands back in Cyprus, as far as you are concerned he is a non-combatant? I was a submarine in operation theatre for months with all the risk entailed in working in such a shallow and dangerous environment. I apologise if you consider that less worthy a military exploit than the soldier on the ground with his SA80.

Well done, you have eclipsed some of the other incredibly stupid comments on this thread.

[weeker2014]

I have to say that I really thought some of those within this forum could not sink any lower, but using a thread like this to fire cheap shots at others without even getting involved in the overall discussion is disgusting.

Bekisman who do you think you are questioning Midi on his service? You should be thanking him for his service and all he has done for his country and I personally would like to take this opportunity to thank Midi for his service. You really have sunk to a new low for this forum.

Rich62_uk if you are so worried about getting bad rep then maybe you should refrain from writing posts that gets peoples backs up so much as there is really no need for it, although I have to say that cptdodger has spent more time taking aim at people in his few posts that he has done writing anything constructive to the thread, hypocrisy at its best.

[cptdodger]

although I have to say that cptdodger has spent more time taking aim at people in his few posts that he has done writing anything constructive to the thread, hypocrisy at its best.

As I explained in a previous post, I was not taking aim at anybody in particular, just at the nature of the thread itself. I explained, in my mere opinion this is not a time for arguments. However weeker2014, it seems to suit your agenda to state that I was having a go at everybody. I could say plenty about the subject, but then that would make me rather hypocritical would it not ?

[weeker2014]

As I explained in a previous post, I was not taking aim at anybody in particular, just at the nature of the thread itself. I explained, in my mere opinion this is not a time for arguments. However weeker2014, it seems to suit your agenda to state that I was having a go at everybody. I could say plenty about the subject, but then that would make me rather hypocritical would it not ?

I have no agenda. I got involved in this thread because I found the first post in it a disgrace and had to say something.

[rich62_uk]

Bad rep good rep I really dont care, I found it amusing that someone gave me some for something so trivial twice. But if it gives someone pleasure then maybe your right and I should not of mentioned it ...

[squidge]

Many extremists are currently in this country waiting their call for sacrifice, these extremists live their lives as Muslims and view Christians etc as infidels. How do we filter these extremists out from the those who wish us no harm? We can't! But what we can do is shut our borders to all immigrants and Syrian refugees to reduce the risk of further extremists landing on our soil.. .

The first part of this quote is typical of the hysteria surrounding Muslims in Britain. Porshiepoo what you say is as wrong as the "all terrorists are Muslims" that you said in another post. How many is "many extremists"? 1in 50? 1 in 20? 1 in 10?

The best educated reports identify 2000 extremists currently living in Britain. That equates to 1 in 1400 Muslims holding extremist views. Even if we suggest that this is an underestimation and more than double it to 5000 then we would have 1 in 560 Muslims with extremist views. There are 2.8 million Muslims living in Britain. Those involved in extremism are a tiny number, not the "many" you suggest or the "thousands" suggested by organisations like Britain first.

This is is important because when we allow this sort of stuff to be said and not challenged we end up with situations where people are abused, insulted, attacked and Victimised. Sadly we have already seen some of that on the streets of Scotland in the last few days. We all bear responsibility for making sure sweeping statements and generalisations are not allowed to stand without challenge.

And then what happens when we shut our borders to refugees. We condemn these desperate people to their fate as though it is nothing to do with us - when it is. When we as a country are responsible for feting arms dealers, for supporting the Assads of this world, for manipulating and creating situations where civilians pay the price for our meddling. ISIS want us to do just that. They will laugh laugh laugh with delight if we close our borders to those fleeing their murderous regimes because if we do that then we buy into their "them and us" mantra.we show all those refusing to believe in the ISIS way that actually ISIS might just have a point. We leave people with no hope and we create an environment where hate can fester and grow amongst those people we have shown utterly no care for.

We, all of us need to stand tall with our neighbours, our friends and those we don't know whoever they are but especially if they are Muslims. If we do that there is no room for hate to grow. We should not care if they are Muslims Christians Jews because after all they are just people like us. Just like us

[weeker2014]

I would like to share something I was sent today in PM by Nicnak. I have checked the rules and there is nothing to stop me from sharing a PM and as it relates to posts on this thread.

"I would like you to take a step back and stop contacting me, I don't know and i am not interested in you or your comments so go away and leave me alone, you can spout as much rubbish as you like, I am not interested and do not want any contact with you via pm or on the forum! Does that make it clear enough for you, I find life is short enough without e having to deal with people like you! add to that the comments you have posted have placed me in a position where i feel I am in fear and alarmed for myself and my family."

Could someone please explain to me from my posts on this thread how I could put someone in a state of fear and alarm for themselves and their family?

[cptdodger]

I would like to share something I was sent today in PM by Nicnak. I have checked the rules and there is nothing to stop me from sharing a PM and as it relates to posts on this thread.

"I would like you to take a step back and stop contacting me, I don't know and i am not interested in you or your comments so go away and leave me alone, you can spout as much rubbish as you like, I am not interested and do not want any contact with you via pm or on the forum! Does that make it clear enough for you, I find life is short enough without e having to deal with people like you! add to that the comments you have posted have placed me in a position where i feel I am in fear and alarmed for myself and my family."

Could someone please explain to me from my posts on this thread how I could put someone in a state of fear and alarm for themselves and their family?



we will be happy to send them to bomb ur hoose first as you will be quite happy to stay there, not be scared of the consequences for u and ur family, be happy be a jihaddy john to do some attrocities,

You really are a nasty little individual.

[rich62_uk]

You are not a nice person.

[weeker2014]

You really are a nasty little individual.

Lol we can all take quotes from things with the context and wording surrounding it missing. Nice try but that one just wont wash!

[weeker2014]

You are not a nice person.

You know nothing about me. This is the same as making sweeping statements about all migrants and refugees. You dont know these people so have no right to make comments like that about me or anyone else.

[davth]

The best educated reports identify 2000 extremists currently living in Britain.


Those involved in extremism are a tiny number, not the "many" you suggest or the "thousands" suggested by organisations like Britain first.

Is the above not a bit of a contradiction Squidge?
Obviously 2000 is in the thousands, and to be honest it is frightening to think that there are 2000 people (that we know of) in this country actively plotting the death of our people and cultures, if you think that is a tiny number then I am afraid you have lost the plot.

8 bombers have killed near 130 folk on Friday which equates to 16.25 people each, if the 2000 we have on our shores are even half as effective then we could see 16,250 fatalities from that.

[squidge]

I don't think it is a contradiction Davth, 2000 people out of 2.6 million is a small number, out of 62.5 million that live in Britain it is a miniscule number and not the thousands or the "many" that is referred to. That's 1 person out of 31 thousand. The portrayal of this small number of people as representative of the whole is deliberately done to make people suspicious of their neighbours when there is no need. To make people think that all terrorists are Muslim and to create fear and stoke hatred.

[davth]

Squidge

By your own admission you said thee are 2000 known extremists in the UK, then in the next breath you say there are not "thousands"
You do realise that the definition of thousands is more than one thousand don't you, or are you deliberately being obtuse?

As we all have seen last Friday, it doesn't take a lot of people armed with AK47's and suicide vests to kill or maim large numbers of innocents.
When the "refugees" descended on the ports en masse, it didn't take a genius to realise that among the genuine ones there will be bad eggs that we maybe do not know of yet.
No one is suggesting that all Muslims are extremists (heaven knows we have seem plenty Irish ones in the past) and in fact I don't think this has a thing to do with religion but simply the terrorists using religion as something to legitimise their atrocities.

You can dress it up any way you wish but I do not consider 2000 people hell bent on death and carnage on our streets to be a miniscule number and quite frankly I think you have lost the plot.

I am in no way opposed to allowing genuine refugees in the country that have been properly vetted and considered OK, but the ones swarming all over Europe of late are not welcome, Germany have made a massive balls up here with their open door policy and Angela Merkel will live to regret her choice there.
In fact just this evening they are having to cancel an international football match and clearing out a music venue due to credible threats.

Up until recent times I did not think it, but now I fear we are on the verge of WW3.

[weeker2014]

Okay, you are a nasty little individual in general, does that make it any clearer for you ?

Thats is out and out trolling trying to raise a response so you can take it that you have been reported.

You dont know me, you know nothing about me so you have no idea what yoy are talking about.

[squidge]

You are quite right Davth, to point out that 2000 is more than 1 thousand. However it is not the "thousands and tens of thousands" described by Britain First as running amok and threatening our liberties. It's also worth pointing out that the 2000 are those who hold and ascribe to extremist views. As far as I'm aware having a view on something - extreme or otherwise - is not illegal and having extremist views is not the same as being a terrorist. I suppose that the 2000 is the pool from which terrorist activity could arise, yet it is by no means a done deal.

today refugees arrived here from camps, scared, relieved and no doubt anxious. We must take steps to ensure they are welcomed and supported. We must stand in support of these people. To do otherwise is inhumane. As for those refugees arriving in Europe we - Britain- must engage with the rest of Europe to make sure they are safe, warm, dry and processed properly. If this had been happening then We would have a much better and more thorough knowledge of those people who are here. The shame of it is that whilst Europe has been squabbling like a bunch of bairns, and the UN has been as usual sitting on their hands whistling, we have left these people to struggle, in despair and missed the chance to have any sort of control. That is OUR fault not theirs.

Argue about estimating numbers if you like but the FACT is that Britain in is not overrun with extremists and to suggest that extremists are the many rather than the few is dangerous and wrong and panders to the worst sort of far right racist rhetoric amply demonstrated by the cartoons and headlines in the excuses for newspapers we see on the shelves. Language is important and we need to be aware of the toxicity of lazy, incorrect assertions and the effect of that on vulnerable people - refugees and British Citizens who just happen to be Muslim.

[BetterTogether]

It should also be noted that all refugees being allowed into the country at the moment are from camps not the ones attempting to cross the borders and are being granted 5yr visas not indefinite right to remain. Hopefully once peace has been returned to their country they will have the ability to return and live their lives in peace.

The fear created by groups like Isis,Al Qaeda, Boko Haram should not be underestimated they are dangerous and the damage just a few of them can inflict on our society is incredible. Peoples natural fears should not be derided nor should we over reacte they should be listened and their fears allayed.

Some of the abuse of people on this org in the last few days has gone beyond the pale.

This is was supposed to be a thread to give support and solidarity to those from Paris not a petty squabbling match, where some people are reporting they are now in fear and feel threatened themselves.

It should be remembered that under the laws of this country you only need to make someone feel threatened for the police to intervene so I urge those who have been getting a tad excited about their right to free speech it also comes with responsibilities.

Be careful how you wield those hard fought for freedoms or you become what you condemn

[bekisman]

You've got to be kidding me right? You have to have stepped foot on land and fought that way to have served in operational theatre? I was in a submarine in the Gulf that took part in the conflict. Do I need to post a picture of my Gulf War Medal for proof? Are you for real? If a pilot takes off from Cyprus, drops bombs in Iraq and lands back in Cyprus, as far as you are concerned he is a non-combatant? I was a submarine in operation theatre for months with all the risk entailed in working in such a shallow and dangerous environment. I apologise if you consider that less worthy a military exploit than the soldier on the ground with his SA80.

Well done, you have eclipsed some of the other incredibly stupid comments on this thread.

As I have given an "incredible stupid comment" seems I don't know what I'm talking about (Says I with 15 years - boots on ground service - with three sons who have 34 further years in 'the cake') So total nonsense for you to say 'fought'. So, you were in a sub, not exactly 'fought' is it? I'm, not taking the Michael, but there are so many 'Walt's around these days it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.. your knee-jack reaction is very un-military, you must know 'we' are a laid back kind of people, and I'm surprised at your retort which, if you'd read it properly it was not condescending in the least..
Incidentally two of the sons were in Iraq and Afghan, actually involved in operations, Tim was called 'Mortar Magnet' for quite good reasons, whilst Pete has 7 medals (Balkans etc) and these were not just for being in an operational area. AND they never talk about it, or mention it, unless asked.. Some of us are like that..
So come on midi, calm down and continue with the thread.. go on.. relax

[bekisman]

I have to say that I really thought some of those within this forum could not sink any lower, but using a thread like this to fire cheap shots at others without even getting involved in the overall discussion is disgusting.

Bekisman who do you think you are questioning Midi on his service? You should be thanking him for his service and all he has done for his country and I personally would like to take this opportunity to thank Midi for his service. You really have sunk to a new low for this forum.

Rich62_uk if you are so worried about getting bad rep then maybe you should refrain from writing posts that gets peoples backs up so much as there is really no need for it, although I have to say that cptdodger has spent more time taking aim at people in his few posts that he has done writing anything constructive to the thread, hypocrisy at its best.

Hi weeker2014 nice to see you're looking after midi.. goodness me, you are getting excited aren't you (You can thank me for MY service too if you like, and my three son's three decade' of service?) wot's "low" in what I said or are YOU midi? I've been on here long enough to sniff sock-puppets, you're not one are you?
Interesting thread this, mostly chattering classes I'm afraid - a few good sensible posts, and when I return might put my pennyworth in - but as has been mentioned before a hell of a lot of the old posters have legged it, and left the new ones to argue amongst themselves, easy to see why I suppose.. So CALM DOWN

[weeker2014]

It should also be noted that all refugees being allowed into the country at the moment are from camps not the ones attempting to cross the borders and are being granted 5yr visas not indefinite right to remain. Hopefully once peace has been returned to their country they will have the ability to return and live their lives in peace.

The fear created by groups like Isis,Al Qaeda, Boko Haram should not be underestimated they are dangerous and the damage just a few of them can inflict on our society is incredible. Peoples natural fears should not be derided nor should we over reacte they should be listened and their fears allayed.

Some of the abuse of people on this org in the last few days has gone beyond the pale.

This is was supposed to be a thread to give support and solidarity to those from Paris not a petty squabbling match, where some people are reporting they are now in fear and feel threatened themselves.

It should be remembered that under the laws of this country you only need to make someone feel threatened for the police to intervene so I urge those who have been getting a tad excited about their right to free speech it also comes with responsibilities.

Be careful how you wield those hard fought for freedoms or you become what you condemn

People cant be blamed for blatant out of context over reactions. We can all wave our arms in the air and shout 'poor me', but it is not always justified in the slightest as has been proven on here.

I would suggest they should read the whole comment instead of picking bits out of it to suit their needs.

[weeker2014]

Hi weeker2014 nice to see you're looking after midi.. goodness me, you are getting excited aren't you (You can thank me for MY service too if you like, and my three son's three decade' of service?) wot's "low" in what I said or are YOU midi? I've been on here long enough to sniff sock-puppets, you're not one are you?
Interesting thread this, mostly chattering classes I'm afraid - a few good sensible posts, and when I return might put my pennyworth in - but as has been mentioned before a hell of a lot of the old posters have legged it, and left the new ones to argue amongst themselves, easy to see why I suppose.. So CALM DOWN

I will be happy to thank you all for your service, but you have no right to put someone else in the service down. You could argue that army cooks fall into the category you accuse Midi of but without them you wouldnt be fighting.

I thought the armed forces were part of being a team for the greater good of your country. Not much team work or appreciation in your comments.

[BetterTogether]

People cant be blamed for blatant out of context over reactions. We can all wave our arms in the air and shout 'poor me', but it is not always justified in the slightest as has been proven on here.

I would suggest they should read the whole comment instead of picking bits out of it to suit their needs.

You might also like to thank Bekisman and myself for our boots on the ground service while you're at it.

ive read your whole comment and I still find it wholey inappropriate to be quite honest, the flippant way you decided to deride someone on the org and then take a p.m and make it public shows a certain callous disregard for others feelings. I'm wondering if you have any real life experience of terrorism if you've ever felt the lifelong fear it can instill in some. I know of one orger who has experienced it from a first hand experience as a civilian but you choose to make crass comments.

If if you've absolutely no experience of PTSD, trauma, fear for your family then maybe you'd like to reconsider how to some your comment may have been taken in a completely different context. You seem to be very good at attempting to take some morally dubious high ground and deride others with ascerbic comments while having absolutely zero knowledge of their particular life experiences. It's all very well being a keyboard warrior and launching febrile attacks on others but it does little to encourage debate or discussion or reasoned conclusions.

So you're quite incorrect in your assumption that people cant be justified by over reacting to statements sometimes it is not about " poor me " it's about how you've conducted yourself and whether your response was reasonable, responsible and considerate to how others and their life experiences.

Before you respond quickly and cry it's all about you remember you are dealing with a number of ex servicemen who have faced the fears and terror you mock we don't cry and whine about it. We have the real life experiences not the imaginary ones and I for one would never consider making such an ill thought comment .

Youve left a fellow orger feeling scared and vunerable because as you quite rightly state, they do not know you or anything about you.

That can be a blessing or in these troubled days a source of absolute fear.

[cptdodger]

Thats is out and out trolling trying to raise a response so you can take it that you have been reported.

You dont know me, you know nothing about me so you have no idea what yoy are talking about.

Wrong on both accounts. You are only calling me a troll because I had the audacity to say something you did not agree with. You asked why Nicnak had been placed into a state of fear by you, after you made public a private message sent to you, I gave you the reason. You can shout and moan, and play the poor me card about how it was taken out of context as much as you like, but you wrote those words, nobody else, trying to raise a response no doubt.

[Fulmar]

I am grateful to everyone for their military service and sacrifice, past, present and future. Is that not what we have just so movingly commemorated in the past fortnight, at war memorials and church services (embracing ALL faiths and none) throughout the length and breadth of this country? It frightens and saddens me that such service and sacrifice continues to be necessary but such is the case and I am thankful for it and to all those who suffer as a result, in their physical and mental health and trauma to themselves and their families. Let us hope and pray that whatever happens now in the light of the Paris atrocities is the right and considered response.

[weeker2014]

Wrong on both accounts. You are only calling me a troll because I had the audacity to say something you did not agree with. You asked why Nicnak had been placed into a state of fear by you, after you made public a private message sent to you, I gave you the reason. You can shout and moan, and play the poor me card about how it was taken out of context as much as you like, but you wrote those words, nobody else, trying to raise a response no doubt.

When nicnak made the very first comment in the thread she explained people would not all agree with her so little point in trying to cry foul when she knew precisely what she is posting. I am not going to dignify any more of your comments with a response as you are not worth it and clearly an out and out troll.

I rarely comment on posts but when it is something important to me I do. It is easy to see why nobody is on this forum anymore and it is all down to you and your group of cyber friends.

There is another 'Paris' thread where people have written messages of condolence. I notice the majority of you have written nothing on that, you simply want to deride people on here for having a general discussion about their beliefs.

[BetterTogether]

When nicnak made the very first comment in the thread she explained people would not all agree with her so little point in trying to cry foul when she knew precisely what she is posting. I am not going to dignify any more of your comments with a response as you are not worth it and clearly an out and out troll.

I rarely comment on posts but when it is something important to me I do. It is easy to see why nobody is on this forum anymore and it is all down to you and your group of cyber friends.

There is another 'Paris' thread where people have written messages of condolence. I notice the majority of you have written nothing on that, you simply want to deride people on here for having a general discussion about their beliefs.

Im interested to see how the obvious distress anxiety and fear you've created in an orger is dealt with.

I know others have been dealt with far more severely for making less ill thought out inflamatory fear inducing comments.

[weeker2014]

Im interested to see how the obvious distress anxiety and fear you've created in an orger is dealt with.

I know others have been dealt with far more severely for making less ill thought out inflamatory fear inducing comments.

Or maybe it will be read in the whole context and full script of the post and subsequent posts. You never know, common sense may prevail since there was NOTHING in the post that anyone could sensibly take fear and alarm from.

[BetterTogether]

Or maybe it will be read in the whole context and full script of the post and subsequent posts. You never know, common sense may prevail since there was NOTHING in the post that anyone could sensibly take fear and alarm from.

Just so it's quite clear this is how the law stands. You've made a comment, then posted a private message asking you to desist then compounded it by carrying on about the persons obvious and stated fear and upset.

So we know you've recklessly created fear because the person in questions private message states that.

Then instead of self moderating your behaviour you've compounded it to the persons obvious distress by attempting to make it all about them and not your comments.

If the person wished to pursue the issue I think you'd swiftly find a visit from her majesty's finest in blue would be in order and maybe considering the language used they may even delve into your life quite vigorously as it would be considered extremist by most moderate people.


38Threatening or abusive behaviour
(1)A person (“A”) commits an offence if—

(a)A behaves in a threatening or abusive manner,

(b)the behaviour would be likely to cause a reasonable person to suffer fear or alarm, and

(c)A intends by the behaviour to cause fear or alarm or is reckless as to whether the behaviour would cause fear or alarm.

(2)It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to show that the behaviour was, in the particular circumstances, reasonable.

(3)Subsection (1) applies to—

(a)behaviour of any kind including, in particular, things said or otherwise communicated as well as things done, and

(b)behaviour consisting of—

(i)a single act, or

(ii)a course of conduct.

(4)A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable—

(a)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years, or to a fine, or to both, or

(b)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months, or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or to both.

[weeker2014]

Just so it's quite clear this is how the law stands. You've made a comment, then posted a private message asking you to desist then compounded it by carrying on about the persons obvious and stated fear and upset.

So we know you've recklessly created fear because the person in questions private message states that.

Then instead of self moderating your behaviour you've compounded it to the persons obvious distress by attempting to make it all about them and not your comments.

If the person wished to pursue the issue I think you'd swiftly find a visit from her majesty's finest in blue would be in order and maybe considering the language used they may even delve into your life quite vigorously as it would be considered extremist by most moderate people.


38Threatening or abusive behaviour
(1)A person (“A”) commits an offence if—

(a)A behaves in a threatening or abusive manner,

(b)the behaviour would be likely to cause a reasonable person to suffer fear or alarm, and

(c)A intends by the behaviour to cause fear or alarm or is reckless as to whether the behaviour would cause fear or alarm.

(2)It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to show that the behaviour was, in the particular circumstances, reasonable.

(3)Subsection (1) applies to—

(a)behaviour of any kind including, in particular, things said or otherwise communicated as well as things done, and

(b)behaviour consisting of—

(i)a single act, or

(ii)a course of conduct.

(4)A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable—

(a)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years, or to a fine, or to both, or

(b)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months, or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or to both.







Not trying to stir the pot in any way are u? Lol - I think we all know what you are like for trying to provoke a response from people so I need say no more.

[dragonfly]

Honestly....just look at yourselves! Hope you feel suitably smug with your war of words...back in the real world there are still people being terrorised and are still fleeing for their lives

maybe looking at some of these images of real suffering children will bring you back to reality

Where Syrian Children Sleep At Night (http://www.buzzfeed.com/lynzybilling/where-syrian-children-sleep#.epzqq0P3A)

[BetterTogether]

Not trying to stir the pot in any way are u? Lol - I think we all know what you are like for trying to provoke a response from people so I need say no more.


Unlike you you I prefer not to attack people but defend them. You can sit back and try justify your actions as much as you like it doesn't mean they are acceptable. It does you no good to use the term " we all know " as you are and always will be a single person the reality is more people have condemned your post that have stuck up or agreed with that particularly abhorrent post.

You seem to say people are trying to provoke a response or call them trolls an awful lot.

Reasoned debate even being a controversial is ok but out and out personal attacks are not acceptable.

I know for a fact one orger who has given up posting due to you and the politics section has gone deathly quiet since your last little tirade.

Maybe the owners of the org are happy to allow one single person to silence all debate and watch the tumbleweed roll through the org, some seem to think you have a friend in a high place who won't take action against you.

[weeker2014]

Unlike you you I prefer not to attack people but defend them. You can sit back and try justify your actions as much as you like it doesn't mean they are acceptable. It does you no good to use the term " we all know " as you are and always will be a single person the reality is more people have condemned your post that have stuck up or agreed with that particularly abhorrent post.

You seem to say people are trying to provoke a response or call them trolls an awful lot.

Reasoned debate even being a controversial is ok but out and out personal attacks are not acceptable.

I know for a fact one orger who has given up posting due to you and the politics section has gone deathly quiet since your last little tirade.

Maybe the owners of the org are happy to allow one single person to silence all debate and watch the tumbleweed roll through the org, some seem to think you have a friend in a high place who won't take action against you.

Conspiracy theorist if ever I saw. The politics thread is dead because u and ur pal spend all day writing inane threads about bashing the SNP. The difference is I call you out on it. You deluverately try to inflame situations. It is funny all this is on page 5 and 6 of threads and you have no interest in the discussion about Paris which is what they thread is about. Again just your usual trolling.

This conversation is over.

[weeker2014]

Honestly....just look at yourselves! Hope you feel suitably smug with your war of words...back in the real world there are still people being terrorised and are still fleeing for their lives

maybe looking at some of these images of real suffering children will bring you back to reality

Where Syrian Children Sleep At Night (http://www.buzzfeed.com/lynzybilling/where-syrian-children-sleep#.epzqq0P3A)

I totally agree with you 100%. It is my views on that which they are trying to degrade and I am not going to let them get away with it. I wont be silenced because they dont like what is said.

[dragonfly]

I totally agree with you 100%. It is my views on that which they are trying to degrade and I am not going to let them get away with it. I wont be silenced because they dont like what is said.

Sorry but let them get away with what? they are doing exactly the same as you are and the more you perpetuate it the more it will go on.

[bekisman]

Oh dear weeker2014 you must calm down, apart from getting a poster very concerned for their own safety, you certainly seem to have, let us say, an explosive’ undertone. Let’s not forget you have only been a member of these forums for just a year - no-one has any idea where you are really based, who you are or what you are.. your regular statements of ‘love and understanding’ does not sit well with these simply grabbed comments of yours:

What a lot of tosh!.. You should be ashamed by your comments.. Your comments are moronic…I find your comments completely contemptuous and disgusting…Your reasoning is nonsense…Frankly I think your views are extremist….I found your views to be extremist …I think what they are saying is complete and utter nonsense…You really have sunk to a new low for this forum…I found the first post in it a disgrace….we will be happy to send them to bomb ur hoose (sic) first …you have no idea what yoy (sic) are talking about…I am not going to dignify any more of your comments with a response”

You are getting away from the whole premise of what the thread is about; “Paris Tragedy” all of us right thinking people think this attack was barbarous and undertaken by those with a warped interpretation of Islam. Not wishing to play the ‘I’ card, but yes, I have used black bags to pick up bits of humans in explosions in Northern Ireland in ‘71 and ‘74.. You have this idea that the Paris killings are related to the bombing in Iraq, your grasp on relative recent historical matters are rather inaccurate as ‘ the electorates of France and Germany were strongly opposed to the war”

You then compound your inaccuracies with the Paris bombing being undertaken by ‘home grown’ terrorist, these ‘home grown’ are usually from good backgrounds, university educated. To which ‘type’ of terrorist are you referring? To my own way of thinking the French military and Police (including the CRS who frightened the crap out of me when they ran across the top of my car at the Place de la Concorde during a riot!) are handling it well - Last nights Football match between France and England at Wembley was emotional to the extreme with the English singing (badly) La Marseillaise, I’m pretty hard bitten, but brought a tear to my eyes, and I can’t stand football!

[weeker2014]

Oh dear weeker2014 you must calm down, apart from getting a poster very concerned for their own safety, you certainly seem to have, let us say, an explosive’ undertone. Let’s not forget you have only been a member of these forums for just a year - no-one has any idea where you are really based, who you are or what you are.. your regular statements of ‘love and understanding’ does not sit well with these simply grabbed comments of yours:

What a lot of tosh!.. You should be ashamed by your comments.. Your comments are moronic…I find your comments completely contemptuous and disgusting…Your reasoning is nonsense…Frankly I think your views are extremist….I found your views to be extremist …I think what they are saying is complete and utter nonsense…You really have sunk to a new low for this forum…I found the first post in it a disgrace….we will be happy to send them to bomb ur hoose (sic) first …you have no idea what yoy (sic) are talking about…I am not going to dignify any more of your comments with a response”

You are getting away from the whole premise of what the thread is about; “Paris Tragedy” all of us right thinking people think this attack was barbarous and undertaken by those with a warped interpretation of Islam. Not wishing to play the ‘I’ card, but yes, I have used black bags to pick up bits of humans in explosions in Northern Ireland in ‘71 and ‘74.. You have this idea that the Paris killings are related to the bombing in Iraq, your grasp on relative recent historical matters are rather inaccurate as ‘ the electorates of France and Germany were strongly opposed to the war”

You then compound your inaccuracies with the Paris bombing being undertaken by ‘home grown’ terrorist, these ‘home grown’ are usually from good backgrounds, university educated. To which ‘type’ of terrorist are you referring? To my own way of thinking the French military and Police (including the CRS who frightened the crap out of me when they ran across the top of my car at the Place de la Concorde during a riot!) are handling it well - Last nights Football match between France and England at Wembley was emotional to the extreme with the English singing (badly) La Marseillaise, I’m pretty hard bitten, but brought a tear to my eyes, and I can’t stand football!

Oh for heavens sakes get a life some of you. After what you said to Midi you deserve no further of my attention. Shocking to say the least.

Whether I have been a member for a day or 10 years, it does not make my point any less valid. You just keep regurgitating nonsense and I will continue to ignore it. :D

[bekisman]

Oh for heavens sakes get a life some of you. After what you said to Midi you deserve no further of my attention. Shocking to say the least.

Whether I have been a member for a day or 10 years, it does not make my point any less valid. You just keep regurgitating nonsense and I will continue to ignore it. :D

Oh dear is one annoyed? seems to be as you've given me (again) a bad rep "Total badgering nonsense" stop whinging, and get back on thread (please)?

[BetterTogether]

Oh dear is one annoyed? seems to be as you've given me (again) a bad rep "Total badgering nonsense" stop whinging, and get back on thread (please)?

oh you as well !

[weeker2014]

Oh dear is one annoyed? seems to be as you've given me (again) a bad rep "Total badgering nonsense" stop whinging, and get back on thread (please)?

Your constant bullying is causing me great fear and alarm.

[weeker2014]

oh you as well !

If the cap fits... I need to get some work done. Have a lovely day all.

[bekisman]

oh you as well !

Wot! he did you as well.. I've got THREE!

[BetterTogether]

Wot! he did you as well.. I've got THREE!


Isnt that a lucky number !

Meanwhile Paris is a bit safer after this mornings events.

[porshiepoo]

The first part of this quote is typical of the hysteria surrounding Muslims in Britain. Porshiepoo what you say is as wrong as the "all terrorists are Muslims" that you said in another post. How many is "many extremists"? 1in 50? 1 in 20? 1 in 10?

The best educated reports identify 2000 extremists currently living in Britain. That equates to 1 in 1400 Muslims holding extremist views. Even if we suggest that this is an underestimation and more than double it to 5000 then we would have 1 in 560 Muslims with extremist views. There are 2.8 million Muslims living in Britain. Those involved in extremism are a tiny number, not the "many" you suggest or the "thousands" suggested by organisations like Britain first.

This is is important because when we allow this sort of stuff to be said and not challenged we end up with situations where people are abused, insulted, attacked and Victimised. Sadly we have already seen some of that on the streets of Scotland in the last few days. We all bear responsibility for making sure sweeping statements and generalisations are not allowed to stand without challenge.

And then what happens when we shut our borders to refugees. We condemn these desperate people to their fate as though it is nothing to do with us - when it is. When we as a country are responsible for feting arms dealers, for supporting the Assads of this world, for manipulating and creating situations where civilians pay the price for our meddling. ISIS want us to do just that. They will laugh laugh laugh with delight if we close our borders to those fleeing their murderous regimes because if we do that then we buy into their "them and us" mantra.we show all those refusing to believe in the ISIS way that actually ISIS might just have a point. We leave people with no hope and we create an environment where hate can fester and grow amongst those people we have shown utterly no care for.

We, all of us need to stand tall with our neighbours, our friends and those we don't know whoever they are but especially if they are Muslims. If we do that there is no room for hate to grow. We should not care if they are Muslims Christians Jews because after all they are just people like us. Just like us


Get a grip Squidge, I never suggested 1 in 50, 1in 100 or even 1 in 1000. I simply stated that there are MANY extremists already infiltrated into this country.
TBH I don't really care how many are ther - one is too many!