Tax Credit cuts : The Tories New Poll Tax Image ??

[rob murray]

Tuesday night's defeat has seemingly exposed a split at the top of the Conservative Party, a senior Tory source has told BBC News, with Mr Osborne accused of refusing to listen to MPs' concerns.
"Since they won a majority, the leadership think they're God's gift to politics and think that anything they think or do must be correct by the very dint of them thinking or saying it.
"They will not be moved, despite pressure and warnings - tax credits are just the biggest example of folk seeing an issue coming down the road and them refusing to acknowledge it could do some damage," said the senior figure, who was among those pushing for a rethink on tax credits.....sorta reminds me on advise senior tories got over the pol tax and look where that got them !! ( rightly or wrongly, for or against the Poll tax.... it directly cost Thatcher her job, sent a huge message out to the country, that nearly got Labour back in ...if it wasnt for the "KInnock factor" )

Osbourne has replied that he is promising "transitional help" for those affected, details to be announced in November, but he has vowed to press on with changes designed to save c 4 billions from welfare. I bet he will do 2 things 1 Implement intended changes on new claimants right now 2 Time the cuts to cut in when the new national wage comes in, ok he cannot make the intended savings in his desired time frame but he will play about with the timing...the cuts will come, its just a matter of time. It will be interesting to see, if he is so intent on making the savings, if he decides to up his take on inheritance and corporation tax so he can make his fiscal targets on time.....I wouldnt bet on it though !! He needs to get the dough and make the changes as early as is possible, then he has 4 more years to make things "better"

[BetterTogether]

At least the mistake has been stopped before it became a real issue the joy of having a second chamber, meanwhile north of the border nothing is challenged and the demonisation of the Conservative party continues by those it would appear are more than happy to have a one party SNP state.

[rob murray]

At least the mistake has been stopped before it became a real issue the joy of having a second chamber, meanwhile north of the border nothing is challenged and the demonisation of the Conservative party continues by those it would appear are more than happy to have a one party SNP state.

Hold on...its not stopped....we have to wait and see what is proposed ie transitional deals etc and thank god, in this situation, we have a second chamber .....Ruth Davidson went public on her take against tax credits and she cannot be tarred with the Osbourne brush....Davidson will give Surgeon a mauling now that Sturgeon has publically stated... judge the SNP on their record.....the stage is hers.... as the LD's are to far of the radar, Labour...less said the better / not enough time to make any real inroads organisationally etc.I would say that there are many "quiet" tories in Scotland who will make their presence felt come the election next year...joined by people impressed by Davidson who is a right battler when she gets going and she will have plenty ammo and targets to fire at .....enough to to nudge the tories forward in what could be their best election result in scotia for years.

[weezer 316]

Hold on...its not stopped....we have to wait and see what is proposed ie transitional deals etc and thank god, in this situation, we have a second chamber .....Ruth Davidson went public on her take against tax credits and she cannot be tarred with the Osbourne brush....Davidson will give Surgeon a mauling now that Sturgeon has publically stated... judge the SNP on their record.....the stage is hers.... as the LD's are to far of the radar, Labour...less said the better / not enough time to make any real inroads organisationally etc.I would say that there are many "quiet" tories in Scotland who will make their presence felt come the election next year...joined by people impressed by Davidson who is a right battler when she gets going and she will have plenty ammo and targets to fire at .....enough to to nudge the tories forward in what could be their best election result in scotia for years.

SNP will sweep the board. Nationalism has taken hold and history shows its irrelevant what the facts of a situation are, it needs to burn itself out first. Very difficult to beat a ideology that always looks for scapegoats to distract from its own problems and given the perfect storm of unpopular tories in WM and the closeness of next years elections its unlikely any issues, even the serious ones Scotland faces in the NHS, our enourmous deficit and the current attempt to take over uni's by the govt.

[rob murray]

SNP will sweep the board. Nationalism has taken hold and history shows its irrelevant what the facts of a situation are, it needs to burn itself out first. Very difficult to beat a ideology that always looks for scapegoats to distract from its own problems and given the perfect storm of unpopular tories in WM and the closeness of next years elections its unlikely any issues, even the serious ones Scotland faces in the NHS, our enourmous deficit and the current attempt to take over uni's by the govt.

Totally agree and yes they will sweep the boards...despite as you say scapegoating / diverting attention away from their actual record of government, but Ruth Davidson for one will make them squirm....the abandonment of indy 2 will have an impact as well. Time will dampen the indy supporters enthusiasm away from the SNP.

[rob murray]

watch this space ...........see below.... how can Osbourne help those who lose out...doesnt make any sense ??? nowt worse than a tory scorned eh ?????

Chancellor George Osborne has vowed to bring tax credit spending "under control" despite the government's defeats in the House of Lords.
He told the BBC "uncontrolled" welfare spending, including on tax credits, was a threat to the UK's economic security.
While offering to help those set to lose out, Mr Osborne said he would not "lose sight" of his long-term goal of a "low-welfare, high-wage economy".

[BetterTogether]

I'm not so sure Nationalism has taken such a firm grip of the Nation. Cracks are beginning to appear all over the place and dissent is becoming more apparent across the board. The more the SNP tighten their grip the less people are liking what they are seeing. It's obviously different for each person but there are so many issues each one is beginning to gain a momentum of its own.
No doubt the Conservatives will do something to change the tax credit system to make it more appetising before moving ahead with the reforms as long as that happens it will end up being forgotten long before the next election, as long as they continue to manage a recovering economy and the jobs market keeps growing.

[rob murray]

I'm not so sure Nationalism has taken such a firm grip of the Nation. Cracks are beginning to appear all over the place and dissent is becoming more apparent across the board. The more the SNP tighten their grip the less people are liking what they are seeing. It's obviously different for each person but there are so many issues each one is beginning to gain a momentum of its own.
No doubt the Conservatives will do something to change the tax credit system to make it more appetising before moving ahead with the reforms as long as that happens it will end up being forgotten long before the next election, as long as they continue to manage a recovering economy and the jobs market keeps growing.

WOuld agree on all of the above..............the SNP will get back in for sure but with indy 2 kicked into touch whats the point of the SNP ( they are after all a nationalist party whose key rationale is to gain indepednance ) apart from their being the only substantial party in Scotland, LD's have a long way to go to get back, Labour....no way in hell can they make up ground in a a year, tories may well surpise by gaining some seats, GReens ....???? so its down to which party can be convincing in SNP third term ie who will be the alternative ???

[BetterTogether]

You may well be right but the third term will be their last as their support base will start to diminish they've made a lot of ground based on grievance politics but it will end up biting them as those who they've fired up so much aren't being given the option of a referendum anytime soon and a lot of their mismanagement is starting to appear. I see there's a piece in the guardian today about the chap from wings over Scotland being fined by the electoral commission and Andrew Neil is talking about interviewing him which would be pretty much his downfall.

All the other parties have to do is wait for the SNPs collapse as for the Tax Credit cuts they'll seem like small beer when the SNP are forced to start doing things to keep the Scottish Economy on track.

[weezer 316]

I'm not so sure Nationalism has taken such a firm grip of the Nation. Cracks are beginning to appear all over the place and dissent is becoming more apparent across the board. The more the SNP tighten their grip the less people are liking what they are seeing. It's obviously different for each person but there are so many issues each one is beginning to gain a momentum of its own.
No doubt the Conservatives will do something to change the tax credit system to make it more appetising before moving ahead with the reforms as long as that happens it will end up being forgotten long before the next election, as long as they continue to manage a recovering economy and the jobs market keeps growing.

What would make you sure? 45% in infy ref, 50% in May and projections of nearly 60% of vote going to a nationalist party with a horrendous record in govt. I'm not sure more could happen to make me sure.

Want a laugh, go to Google, type Nicola Sturgeon, and then select news. She has a country to run and all her news is whinging about Westminster.

[Alrock]

At least the mistake has been stopped before it became a real issue the joy of having a second chamber, meanwhile north of the border nothing is challenged and the demonisation of the Conservative party continues by those it would appear are more than happy to have a one party SNP state.

Yet more anti-SNP propaganda...



Party
Total


Scottish National Party
64


Scottish Labour
38


Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party
15


Scottish Liberal Democrats
5


Scottish Green Party
2


Independent
3


No Party Affiliation
1


Total number of MSPs
128




Doesn't look like a one party state to me...

[rob murray]

Yet more anti-SNP propaganda...



Party

Total



Scottish National Party

64



Scottish Labour

38



Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party

15



Scottish Liberal Democrats

5



Scottish Green Party

2



Independent

3



No Party Affiliation

1



Total number of MSPs

128





Doesn't look like a one party state to me...

Not quiet, but going by these stats the only gains I can see will come mainly from the tories, Labour hasnt the time or people to make inroads, LD's could well be a busted flush, given indy polls % SNP could even well increase their MSP's even though there will be no indy 2 in next parliament, so I guess we are stuck with the situation until people wise upto SNP record, other parties gain seats and SNP vote withers as it slowly dawns that indy 2 is in the long grass.

[BetterTogether]

I wasn't aware that I was only supposed to post pro SNP articles.

Maybe someone could enlighten me to where that rule applies or are they supposed to be just beyond criticism on some National basis nowadays.

[rob murray]

I wasn't aware that I was only supposed to post pro SNP articles.

Maybe someone could enlighten me to where that rule applies or are they supposed to be just beyond criticism on some National basis nowadays.

Try reading Animal farm....2 legs bad 4 legs good...your a 2 legger so out of step

[BetterTogether]

Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.”
― George Orwell (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3706.George_Orwell), 1984 (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/153313)

[BetterTogether]

“...out from the door of the farmhouse came a long file of pigs, all walking on their hind legs...out came Napoleon himself, majestically upright, casting haughty glances from side to side, and with his dogs gambolling round him.

He carried a whip in his trotter.

There was a deadly silence. Amazed, terrified, huddling together, the animals watched the long line of pigs march slowly round the yard. It was as though the world had turned upside-down. Then there came a moment when the first shock had worn off and when, in spite of everything-in spite of their terror of the dogs, and of the habit, developed through long years, of never complaining, never criticising, no matter what happened-they might have uttered some word of protest. But just at that moment, as though at a signal, all the sheep burst out into a tremendous bleating of-

"Four legs good, two legs better! Four legs good, two legs better! Four legs good, two legs better!"

It went on for five minutes without stopping. And by the time the sheep had quieted down, the chance to utter any protest had passed, for the pigs had marched back into the farmhouse.”
― George Orwell (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3706.George_Orwell), Animal Farm (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2207778)

[rob murray]

SO 4 legs only eh..no dissent nor critiscm.. which is anti government ( SNP in this case ) the basis of all democracy.........ok, 100% of everything the SNP stands for and does is great and unquestionable...see Ive 4 legs

[Fulmar]

It has to run its course, doesn't it -and it will- and then we shall see what emerges from it all.
It is not yet a dictatorship though, so we should not despair.
The worrying thing is, despite all the 'trumpeting' that many will probably remain too disengaged to vote and are completely un-interested and unaware. I think that is awful really and I would have politics right up there in the schools as a subject on the curriculum.

[rob murray]

It has to run its course, doesn't it -and it will- and then we shall see what emerges from it all.
It is not yet a dictatorship though, so we should not despair.
The worrying thing is, despite all the 'trumpeting' that many will probably remain too disengaged to vote and are completely un-interested and unaware. I think that is awful really and I would have politics right up there in the schools as a subject on the curriculum.

AGreed its not a dictatorship but it seems that any questioning of SNP policies etc is shouted down as anti SNP propoganda....I would agree with your statement.... that many will probably remain too disengaged to vote and are completely un-interested and unaware....and many will become disillusioned as they still think a vote for SNP is a vote for independance. Its a wee bit like a football team doing well and crowds swell then when the dip comes crowds fall.......

[BetterTogether]

Worst part of it is the ones that think if you're not pro SNP you're anti Scottish. Some with that world view do veer to the more extreme side of life.

[rob murray]

Worst part of it is the ones that think if you're not pro SNP you're anti Scottish. Some with that world view do veer to the more extreme side of life.

Hoots min am no SNP and am more scottish than most o them. SNP = a broad church ah mean there's tons o lads and lassies in wi them that are no more "scottish" than Charles De Gaul................

[Fulmar]

Hoots min am no SNP and am more scottish than most o them. SNP = a broad church ah mean there's tons o lads and lassies in wi them that are no more "scottish" than Charles De Gaul................

You mean he wasn't Scottish, not even a tiny bit?

[rob murray]

Hoots min am no SNP and am more scottish than most o them. SNP = a broad church ah mean there's tons o lads and lassies in wi them that are no more "scottish" than Charles De Gaul................

You mean he wasn't Scottish, not even a tiny bit?

His granny styed in duxy...dis at count ????

[BetterTogether]

Strangely the First Minister seems to be curiously unaware that her own MPs had tabled a motion on tax credits identical to the one she's been attacking in Twitter.

[rob murray]

Strangely the First Minister seems to be curiously unaware that her own MPs had tabled a motion on tax credits identical to the one she's been attacking in Twitter.

Now thats what Id call joined up government

[BetterTogether]

Does show up the faux outrage for what it really is !

Shout outrage while your own ministers are motioning exactly the same thing !


FAIL !

[rob murray]

Does show up the faux outrage for what it really is !

Shout outrage while your own ministers are motioning exactly the same thing !


FAIL !

Failure in communications, apparently the pigeon carrying the issue from westminster to sturgeon was killed by a London hawk, so she never got correct info, hence the crossed wires

[BetterTogether]

I suppose that's a viable excuse as any. I'm trying to avoid the NHS issues, Bursaries and university issues for the moment otherwise I will be accused of something or other again.

[rob murray]

I suppose that's a viable excuse as any. I'm trying to avoid the NHS issues, Bursaries and university issues for the moment otherwise I will be accused of something or other again.

Yep any criticism and yer anti scottish a traitor....cheezo.......whatever next, when a man cant highlight obvious government incompetences in his own country, living in a democracy ?

[Alrock]

I wasn't aware that I was only supposed to post pro SNP articles.

Maybe someone could enlighten me to where that rule applies or are they supposed to be just beyond criticism on some National basis nowadays.

Post as many anti SNP articles as you like, just don't make them up...

[rob murray]

Post as many anti SNP articles as you like, just don't make them up...

Unfortuntaley for you anything I post always refers to and or is based on on line government docs and established credible news sources. BTG has also a track record of refering to official information sources ( perhpas why your party want an independant TV channel, then we will watch government approved news stories....since when was this North Korea ?? ) Police Scotland and vat debacle being most recent clearly refering to published officail docs etc. Can you not understand the SNP are in government and Id attack any government making such a mess of things........NHS, eduction attainment gap, Police Scotland, Centralisation of economic powers, fiscal fudging... the list goes on and on and they get largely away with it because no creditible opposition exists in Scotland ( at the present time )

[BetterTogether]

Post as many anti SNP articles as you like, just don't make them up...


Cant say ive made anything up regarding any of the articles posted there may be a few minor inaccuracies here and there but they wouldn't be purposeful. If you want to support the SNP feel free meanwhile they are the ones holding the reigns of power in Scotland doing their absolute best to deflect criticisms, obfuscate or bury bad new under a new faux outrage conflated by themselves. I would roundly bring up the same issues regardless of which party where in power if they continued to make such errors of judgment .

[Alrock]

Cant say ive made anything up regarding any of the articles posted there may be a few minor inaccuracies here and there but they wouldn't be purposeful. If you want to support the SNP feel free meanwhile they are the ones holding the reigns of power in Scotland doing their absolute best to deflect criticisms, obfuscate or bury bad new under a new faux outrage conflated by themselves. I would roundly bring up the same issues regardless of which party where in power if they continued to make such errors of judgment .


pfft... whatever...

BTW, For the Record...
I am not an SNP supporter, just so happened that at the last election I did vote SNP as at the time that seemed to be the best choice available up here. If I'd lived in another part of the country with a more varied selection of candidates, or, if we had a system of proportional representation then I may well have voted differently...
As for the next Scottish elections I still cannot say with any certainty which way I'll be voting (though definately not the Tories)...

[BetterTogether]

pfft... whatever...

BTW, For the Record...
I am not an SNP supporter, just so happened that at the last election I did vote SNP as at the time that seemed to be the best choice available up here. If I'd lived in another part of the country with a more varied selection of candidates, or, if we had a system of proportional representation then I may well have voted differently...
As for the next Scottish elections I still cannot say with any certainty which way I'll be voting (though definately not the Tories)...


So so you're not an SNP supporter but voted for them last time ....ooooook whatever you say !

Or as you prefer to say and I quote directly.

" pfft... whatever..."

[rob murray]

pfft... whatever...

BTW, For the Record...
I am not an SNP supporter, just so happened that at the last election I did vote SNP as at the time that seemed to be the best choice available up here. If I'd lived in another part of the country with a more varied selection of candidates, or, if we had a system of proportional representation then I may well have voted differently...
As for the next Scottish elections I still cannot say with any certainty which way I'll be voting (though definately not the Tories)...

IN fairness there was a dearth of good candidates standing locally so I canunderstand your actions