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View Full Version : Tories The True Party of Labour ?



rob murray
05-Oct-15, 15:58
Seems ol Georgie boy is wasting no time grabbing the centre ground of UK, despite being right of centre : In his conference speech in Manchester, the chancellor said the Tories had created a "new centre ground" and were "the true party of labour".......???? Exocet missile shot right into Corbyns left agenda.......but to claim the Tories are the party of labour......what was it that Danny ALexander said again on a remark made when sitting round the table in downing street....oh...Osbourne is qouted as saying " we will look after the bosses....you ( the LD's ) ...look after the workers" !!! SO we are all bossess now eh ??? The true party of labour...what planet does the guy came from...comments please !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34440479

BetterTogether
05-Oct-15, 16:17
Well it's not the party of say one thing do another at least eh !

rob murray
05-Oct-15, 16:22
But thats what theyre doing....home of labour.......come off it....cut to the chase its the work or want party trying to catch new labourites....sorry but Corbyns masses will see right through this two faced nonsense

BetterTogether
05-Oct-15, 17:14
But does Corbyn actually have masses he may well of got the vote of 250,000 odd left wingers but what about the majority of the country do they want far left policies or do they want steady as she goes stick to the middle ground sensible policies.
I mean look at the trident debacle going on we have two parties ranting on about getting rid of trident but when you start looking at nuclear policy the masses do kind of like the idea of having a big stick to wave around.
Accepted they don't want to actually use it but it makes them feel safe and secure from the big bad bullies on the world stage.
Then throw in the unlimited benefits for all statements it doesn't make the average working person comfortable.

So what he is saying is Conservative is the best place to put your X in the box when it comes to voting.
Same will go for the SNP up here if you consider politics like Football then all well and good wear your T shirt shout ra ra and accept your team can do no wrong.
But if you're serious about how your countries run who can you vote for at the moment.

Take away all the child like ranting and at least the conservatives have decent credentials for running the country compared to the other parties and don't flip flop all the time.

You can't trust labour to do anything but plough the country into debt, the SNP I've seen more competence and honesty from 5 yr olds everything they touch becomes a mess. Lib Dems aren't really a credible force nor are the greens. UKIP is a bit of a one trick pony who will become an irrelevance after the EU referendum.

So if you want to keep harking back to ooh my pa worked in Tha pits back in 1920 and never would vote Tory all well and good or look at what thatcher did well I'd say get up to date and show your serious as that was a long time ago things have changed. What do you want fiscal competence and a country run well that encourages jobs tries to keep your taxes down and does pretty much what it says it's going to, or some other bunch intent of progressing outdated political ideology and interfering in every aspect of your life while blowing every penny the country has.


Notable that the areas that vote conservative time after time are relatively prosperous those that vote labour or other parties tend to be poorer and stay poorer long term.

Time for a change what's the worst you get 5 yrs then you can change them again.

rob murray
06-Oct-15, 09:22
But does Corbyn actually have masses he may well of got the vote of 250,000 odd left wingers but what about the majority of the country do they want far left policies or do they want steady as she goes stick to the middle ground sensible policies.
I mean look at the trident debacle going on we have two parties ranting on about getting rid of trident but when you start looking at nuclear policy the masses do kind of like the idea of having a big stick to wave around.
Accepted they don't want to actually use it but it makes them feel safe and secure from the big bad bullies on the world stage.
Then throw in the unlimited benefits for all statements it doesn't make the average working person comfortable.

So what he is saying is Conservative is the best place to put your X in the box when it comes to voting.
Same will go for the SNP up here if you consider politics like Football then all well and good wear your T shirt shout ra ra and accept your team can do no wrong.
But if you're serious about how your countries run who can you vote for at the moment.

Take away all the child like ranting and at least the conservatives have decent credentials for running the country compared to the other parties and don't flip flop all the time.

You can't trust labour to do anything but plough the country into debt, the SNP I've seen more competence and honesty from 5 yr olds everything they touch becomes a mess. Lib Dems aren't really a credible force nor are the greens. UKIP is a bit of a one trick pony who will become an irrelevance after the EU referendum.

So if you want to keep harking back to ooh my pa worked in Tha pits back in 1920 and never would vote Tory all well and good or look at what thatcher did well I'd say get up to date and show your serious as that was a long time ago things have changed. What do you want fiscal competence and a country run well that encourages jobs tries to keep your taxes down and does pretty much what it says it's going to, or some other bunch intent of progressing outdated political ideology and interfering in every aspect of your life while blowing every penny the country has.


Notable that the areas that vote conservative time after time are relatively prosperous those that vote labour or other parties tend to be poorer and stay poorer long term.

Time for a change what's the worst you get 5 yrs then you can change them again.

You make your points very well, I accept that things have changed, times move on, witness new rising industries etc but the Tories are obviously moving to change the game ie the new centre is defacto centre right, they are taking advantage of Corbyns swing to the far left to attract a % of new labour supporters who wont buy into Corbyn and given the state of the LD's the time is right to make their immediate play. But its all spin, the big test comming up is the reaction to employers legislated into paying a government set minimum / living wage, the tory strategy is to create wealth ( good ) and that wealth can be used for employers to pay higher wages / create jobs ( will they ?? ) therefore justifying cuts in working credits / wage subsidies etc. Employment will either be created or not by employers as governments cannot directly create jobs. ATtacks from all quarters are being made on this strategy, ie the transition time is far to short and people will lose out, ie losing tax credits etc, that is people on low wages currently recieving tax credits etc. the acid test is how the electorate judge this and as you say there is a direct link between poor areas = labour and more well off = Tory, Tory strategy is to get new labour type dissenters in marginal seats / hold onto core seats, and given Labours situations / LD's...job done for next election. OSbournes speeh yesterday is seen by a lot of people as his leadership / leader in waiting speech, as he went far beyond what a chancellor usually says at a confernece. Interestingly Boris JOhnson is speaking today and expect dissent / speaking out on tax credits etc as the Tory party are not 100% united behind current strategy.

Boris's position : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11913723/david-cameron-conservative-conference-2015-live.html

rob murray
06-Oct-15, 09:27
David Cameron has spent the morning defending his planned tax credit cuts, which could leave some families up to 1,200 per year worse off. The controversial issue was thrown back into the spotlight yesterday when health secretary Jeremy Hunt suggested that the cuts would encourage British people to work harder. Boris Johnson will today make a veiled criticism of George Osborne's tax credit cuts and warn that the Conservatives should "protect the hard-working and lowest paid". In a speech at the Conservative Party conference, Mr Johnson will say that as the Tories overhaul welfare they must offer people "hope, aspiration and opportunity".
Mr Johnson's comments today will represent the first time he has publicly raised concerns about the issue. He is expected to say: "We must ensure that as we reform welfare and we cut taxes that we protect the hardest working and lowest paid.
"Shops workers, cleaners, the people who get up in the small hours or work through the night because they have dreams for what their families can achieve." Mr Johnson is lobbying Mr Osborne to soften the impact of the cuts with other policies to bolster people's income.

BetterTogether
06-Oct-15, 09:35
Oh it's fairly obvious Boris and Gideon are up for the top job I don't think anyone's doubting that for one second.
I accept that some of the credit transitions may well be a bit of a bumpy ride but they are trying to overhaul a system that had become far too easy for people to claim, bloated and wasteful.
It's never been right that benefits should be an alternate lifestyle.

No doubt the system won't be perfect but no system is and mistake will be made.

As you say the Conservatives now inhabit the centre ground whether it's centre right or centre left is irrelevant at the moment because they are the only party there.

And that is what will win them elections.

theone
06-Oct-15, 09:56
I think a lot of working class, traditional labour voters have indeed stopped voting labour as they do not feel the party supports them any more.

People who work hard for a living - who have to earn every penny they spend and have to live within their means by budgeting their household expenditure - can sympathise with the conservative austerity measures. You can't run a household getting further and further into debt every year, so why should you run a country like that? In that respect, labour no longer represent them.

These workers, working hard, paying their taxes also don't feel represented by a labour party who are perceived to spend more time fighting for those who are NOT working as opposed to those who are.

The working class (whether in employment or not) were once seen as the lowest class. In it together. There is now a division among that class, those who work and those who are perceived to chose not to. Those working hard and paying tax often don't want to see 'their' party fighting for those perceived to chose not to.

The traditional labour electorate is confused. Many who have voted that way unquestionably for decades are starting to change. In Scotland many have gone to the SNP. Will Labour under Corbyn win them back? I don't know, for the reasons above I think many will not return to Labour, especially not one more left leaning.

rob murray
06-Oct-15, 12:51
Oh it's fairly obvious Boris and Gideon are up for the top job I don't think anyone's doubting that for one second.
I accept that some of the credit transitions may well be a bit of a bumpy ride but they are trying to overhaul a system that had become far too easy for people to claim, bloated and wasteful.
It's never been right that benefits should be an alternate lifestyle.

No doubt the system won't be perfect but no system is and mistake will be made.

As you say the Conservatives now inhabit the centre ground whether it's centre right or centre left is irrelevant at the moment because they are the only party there.

And that is what will win them elections.

Youve got it wrong....we are talking about reforming benefits ie tax credits etc for people who actually are in work, and the system isnt perfect but planned cut backs will impact heaviliy on the working poor.... no one would say or is proposing that benefits should be a lifestyle....its the WORKING "poor" who are going to lose out.

BetterTogether
06-Oct-15, 13:42
What proportion are we talking about here in reality. Take into account the increase in minimum wage and imcrease in tax threshold a lot of those people are actually no better or worse off so as with any system a small percentage won't fit the system perfectly but before the hysterics start and the left wing start spitting and yelling at everyone. How many people not percentages or kinda of but not actually figures are we dealing with. Come up with an actual number of people who will be disadvantaged by the policy changes.

BetterTogether
06-Oct-15, 13:47
I notice how no one has attacked the devolved Business rates for cities yet. Also Nicola Sturgeon hasn't crawled out from her cronyism bunker to call for another referendum as the Conservatives send another 500 million up to Scotland.

rob murray
06-Oct-15, 13:58
What proportion are we talking about here in reality. Take into account the increase in minimum wage and imcrease in tax threshold a lot of those people are actually no better or worse off so as with any system a small percentage won't fit the system perfectly but before the hysterics start and the left wing start spitting and yelling at everyone. How many people not percentages or kinda of but not actually figures are we dealing with. Come up with an actual number of people who will be disadvantaged by the policy changes.

Come off it...who do you thing you are and I am.....what do you accept as reality ???????? .... will this do : The Institute for Fiscal Studies has warned it is "arithmetically impossible" for nobody to lose out under the shake-up while the Resolution Foundation, headed by former Conservative minister David Willetts, said more than one million households would lose an average of 1,350 a year (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34446684). THESE ARE WORKING PEOPLE NOT BENEFIT LIFERS AND SENIOR TORIES and the IFS BEING DIRECTLY QUOTED.... are they liars then ????? : how about you doing some digging yourself as you are callously dismissing any negative impacts based on your on preconceptions and whittering on about " no system being perfect

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34449928 "...............source BBC news about an hour ago

BetterTogether
06-Oct-15, 14:12
I've never said anyone is lying and I asked for numbers not statistics.

Less of the hyperbole is required though questioning something isn't callously dismissing anything you're beginning to sound like someone else puppet when you use such inflammatory language.

I didn't mention which category, that's you jumping in and adding words to create effect.

Like I said no system is perfect there will always be winners and losers the system has just been tweaked it hasn't even had time to be seen to either work or not work.

I'm pretty sure that no government will seek to throw a million households into poverty so questioning something isn't dismissing anything with preconceptions or being callous it's just accepting that a broad brush can't deal with smaller details.

We both agree the system needs revision where we disagree is on how it's done.

Although to put pay to one myth I heard a definition of poverty being used the other day on TV after rent/ mortgage and food are deducted only 335 a week left to live on.

If that's poverty then I am so well below poverty at the moment it doesn't bear thinking about.

cptdodger
06-Oct-15, 14:18
What proportion are we talking about here in reality. Take into account the increase in minimum wage and imcrease in tax threshold a lot of those people are actually no better or worse off so as with any system a small percentage won't fit the system perfectly but before the hysterics start and the left wing start spitting and yelling at everyone. How many people not percentages or kinda of but not actually figures are we dealing with. Come up with an actual number of people who will be disadvantaged by the policy changes.

I don't know the figures. But that was what Cameron was saying this morning, and another Conservative MP yesterday, that the reduction in tax credits would be covered by an increase in the minimum wage, and an increase in the tax threshold. That will only work if it is done simultaneously. I don't know the timescale but if the tax credits are reducing this year and the minimum wage and tax threshold are not going to be raised for another couple of years, that's where the problems will start.

rob murray
06-Oct-15, 14:33
I've never said anyone is lying and I asked for numbers not statistics.

Less of the hyperbole is required though questioning something isn't callously dismissing anything you're beginning to sound like someone else puppet when you use such inflammatory language.

I didn't mention which category, that's you jumping in and adding words to create effect.

Like I said no system is perfect there will always be winners and losers the system has just been tweaked it hasn't even had time to be seen to either work or not work.

I'm pretty sure that no government will seek to throw a million households into poverty so questioning something isn't dismissing anything with preconceptions or being callous it's just accepting that a broad brush can't deal with smaller details.

We both agree the system needs revision where we disagree is on how it's done.

Although to put pay to one myth I heard a definition of poverty being used the other day on TV after rent/ mortgage and food are deducted only 335 a week left to live on.

If that's poverty then I am so well below poverty at the moment it doesn't bear thinking about.

I am no ones puppet....are you ??? you got numbers not statistics........ 1 million, not my numbers but tory and IFS numbers.....check out your own language pal.....why not try and get the facts first eh ?? Check out CPT Dodger she's nailed it, whatever happens its a timing issue,ie the tax credits are reducing this year and the minimum wage and tax threshold are not going to be raised for another couple of years, that's where the problems will start....ie the gap ???? Ive also heard versions of poverty and never ever heard your example : use arithemetic here : say a mortgage / rent of 300 a month, food / untilities energy 120 = 420 or round up say 120 a week , add back in your 335 that would give a net of say rounded up 460.00 a week or a gross wage of possibly 700.00 a week : thats c 35k a year....some one was having a laugh here...this is bull......UK average wage is 26k.....

BetterTogether
06-Oct-15, 14:43
I've met plenty of families living on below 26k year handling a mortgage and living quite decent lives I'd in no way consider them living in poverty.
Maybe it's the definition of modern poverty that needs looking into.

I don't deny that some peoples lives are a struggle to make ends meet, I've sat with thousands of people over the years handing out financial advice to help them resolve some of their issues.
Frequently there are more problems with how they manage their money and prioritise spending than how much they earn.

That doesn't mean some aren't earning as much as they should and don't deserve help.

I fully accept the system may not be perfect I've not tried defending it.

But using some hackneyed definition of poverty doesn't do the argument any good.

I wish I could have a time machine and take you back with me to see some of the couples, plenty of money for cigs, mobile phones, lottery, scratch cards, booze , flat screen tv and sky tv, dirty house clothes strewn all over the place but have sat there with me I'm their own homes pleading poverty and when you mention the areas they could save in become apoplectic that you've made suggestions that the money would be better spent on their children and paying the bills. Then they will go to the guy who tells them what they want to hear charges them a fortune and ploughs them further into the ground rather than accept common sense advice which was given free.

I accept there will be those that this doesn't apply to and those are the ones who you can genuinely feel sorry for and do your very best to help.

rob murray
06-Oct-15, 14:53
I've met plenty of families living on below 26k year handling a mortgage and living quite decent lives I'd in no way consider them living in poverty. Maybe it's the definition of modern poverty that needs looking into. I don't deny that some peoples lives are a struggle to make ends meet, I've sat with thousands of people over the years handing out financial advice to help them resolve some of their issues. Frequently there are more problems with how they manage their money and prioritise spending than how much they earn. That doesn't mean some aren't earning as much as they should and don't deserve help. I fully accept the system may not be perfect I've not tried defending it. But using some hackneyed definition of poverty doesn't do the argument any good. I wish I could have a time machine and take you back with me to see some of the couples, plenty of money for cigs, mobile phones, lottery, scratch cards, booze , flat screen tv and sky tv, dirty house clothes strewn all over the place but have sat there with me I'm their own homes pleading poverty and when you mention the areas they could save in become apoplectic that you've made suggestions that the money would be better spent on their children and paying the bills. I accept there will be those that this doesn't apply to and those are the ones who you can genuinely feel sorry for and do your very best to help.

AYe but the average wage isnt deemed poverty though and plenty of folk do fine on 26k, that would be a good wage in some parts. Yep its the definition of poverty when it comes down to it.....no need for the time machine Ive seen plenty of what you describe, and mores the pity, there a fair lot of it around, Id call it fecklessness...its all living above your means and not being realistic as regards what you prioritise in life, plenty of working folk in debt as well who wont make the cut backs, ie stop sky, change mobile comms, no lottery, buy / shop sensibly....try and get back on an even keel, its called taking responsibility for your own life choices.

cptdodger
06-Oct-15, 17:09
The other thing that has to be taken into consideration is say a couple have good jobs for instance at a steel company, they may have a couple of cars on finance, mobile phones on contract and Sky on contract, then without much warning they are both laid off (pretty much like what has just happened at Redcar) one minute they can comfortably afford these things, the next they are both and maybe children surviving on jobseekers allowance.

I know a few years back when I worked for BT, i think it was British Leyland that closed down suddenly, BT made the decision if the people wanted to, they could cancel their broadband without penalty (obviously we needed proof they had worked there) but as for the rest, they would have been held to contract.

Once you get into debt, it is very hard to get out of it.

BetterTogether
06-Oct-15, 17:23
Isn't that more a case then of living beyond your means and the current availability of credit. When I first entered the work place you'd be hard pressed to find anyone with a credit card or loan outside their mortgage. Now everyone's in debt up to their ears with the latest must have don't really need it gizmo.