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Rheghead
18-Apr-07, 09:24
For the last 2 days my cat has been missing. But this morning I went for another determined look and found it alive in a baited fox/badger flaptrap. Fortunately it wasn't any worse for its ordeal except very hungry but I have lost 2 other cats in the last 2 years. It makes me wonder if they had the same fate because I didn't find them. :(

golach
18-Apr-07, 09:26
Rheghead, are those type of traps legal? I would inform the police either way, and I hope the cat is not too badly injured.

Rheghead
18-Apr-07, 09:32
I don't know, it is a 4 foot long and 12 inches square cage with a baited trapping mechanism at the far end which is linked to the trapdoor end. It 'humanely' captures the animal alive, the only thing that is illegal, possibly, is the frequency with which the trap is inspected to prevent starvation suffering. My moggy was there for 2 days without anyone looking, that I know :(

buggyracer
18-Apr-07, 09:47
not illeagal, but as you say they should be checked daily, a quiet word with whoever the traps land is on should work.

MadPict
18-Apr-07, 11:18
Was it like this - http://www.solwayfeeders.com/ProductsResultsList1.asp?cat=15

Looks like the trap setter is not reading the rules...
http://www.basc.org.uk/content/foxsnarepractice

I hope you destroyed the trap....

emb123
18-Apr-07, 11:31
I'm very pleased indeed that you found your cat alive and well - hope you manage to track down whoever set the trap and can have a word with them :)

thebigman
18-Apr-07, 14:05
I'd be interested to know how you figured out the cat had been in the trap for two days?

Best way to prevent the cat from getting trapped is to keep it in the house, that way all the wild birds and animals will also be safe.

MadPict
18-Apr-07, 14:32
I expect the fact that it did not return home for food for two days may be a good indication - that and it was hungry when found.

If the trap is not checked at least twice a day as recommended by the BASC then the chances are his other cats may have suffered a similar fate...

I'm sure Rheghead will answer your questions himself though....

buggyracer
18-Apr-07, 15:32
I expect the fact that it did not return home for food for two days may be a good indication - that and it was hungry when found.

If the trap is not checked at least twice a day as recommended by the BASC then the chances are his other cats may have suffered a similar fate...

I'm sure Rheghead will answer your questions himself though....

lots of ifs buts and maybes there mad pict, any snare or trap should be checked at LEAST twice a day, but be carefull about making statements when you have nothing to back them up?

Victoria
18-Apr-07, 15:40
lots of ifs buts and maybes there mad pict, any snare or trap should be checked at LEAST twice a day, but be carefull about making statements when you have nothing to back them up?


??? I'm confused ??? What part of what Madpict wrote is not backed up?

Solus
18-Apr-07, 15:41
Leave a note, telling whoever set the trap that you believe that they are not checking the trap as often as they should be !

Maybe give them a bit of a scare and prompt them to check it more frequently !

buggyracer
18-Apr-07, 15:53
??? I'm confused ??? What part of what Madpict wrote is not backed up?

just because a cat didnt come home for two days doesnt mean it was in the trap, it could have gone in 10 mins before it was found, lots of jumping to conclusions?

corgiman
18-Apr-07, 15:58
If the cat's habits are known to the owner and it doesn't normally disappear like that then I think it is perfectly reasonable for the owner to assume that the cat was curious when it went out and ended up stuck there for 2 days. I cannot believe such a simple warning from someone can become such a snipey post. If I was in the area I would certainly like to be warned so that should my cat go missing which she never has so far in 11 years I would have an idea of where to look for her.

Solus
18-Apr-07, 15:59
Maybe so, maybe it was in there for two days, a little note would give them a heads up some one else knows, and wait and see how long the note is there before it is picked up.

Sign the note Mr Fox !!

MadPict
18-Apr-07, 16:35
lots of ifs buts and maybes there mad pict, any snare or trap should be checked at LEAST twice a day, but be carefull about making statements when you have nothing to back them up?

Err that is why I underlined "may" - to emphasise the fact that it was a possibility. If I said "yes, thats what happened" then I could understand your point. But I didn't.

I have owned cats and I have had cats go missing for days - one was found trapped under a nearby shed after being chased there by a dog. That took two days to find and as with all our cats they used to be able to be 'called in'.

If I was talking as a non cat owner maybe you might be able to pick holes in my post. But I wasn't.

Read my post again....

Rheghead
18-Apr-07, 17:10
Was it like this - http://www.solwayfeeders.com/ProductsResultsList1.asp?cat=15

Looks like the trap setter is not reading the rules...
http://www.basc.org.uk/content/foxsnarepractice

I hope you destroyed the trap....

Madpict. Thank you for that link.

The trap was exactly like the foxtrap in your link, a brand new one by the look of it.

I had my suspicions because of my neighbour's reputation/activities. A burn separates our properties but due to the lack of rain, the burn was easily crossable.

I will put a note on the trap and ask the trapper to place it further away from my house and point out that he isn't checking his traps frequently enough, I am sure he will. Failure to comply will prove that strange things do happen in isolated areas.

My puss isn't quite himself yet but there isn't anything physically wrong, bless him.

Victoria
18-Apr-07, 20:36
I'd be interested to know how you figured out the cat had been in the trap for two days?

Best way to prevent the cat from getting trapped is to keep it in the house, that way all the wild birds and animals will also be safe.


Thats the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day!!!!

Angela
18-Apr-07, 21:05
Madpict. Thank you for that link.

The trap was exactly like the foxtrap in your link, a brand new one by the look of it.

I had my suspicions because of my neighbour's reputation/activities. A burn separates our properties but due to the lack of rain, the burn was easily crossable.

I will put a note on the trap and ask the trapper to place it further away from my house and point out that he isn't checking his traps frequently enough, I am sure he will. Failure to comply will prove that strange things do happen in isolated areas.

My puss isn't quite himself yet but there isn't anything physically wrong, bless him.

I'm so glad to hear you found your cat and he wasn't injured...and I do hope this won't happen again to your cat or anybody else's.
At least if he does go missing again, you would know to check the trap first, but hopefully the trap owner will comply with your request to make his own daily checks.

DeHaviLand
19-Apr-07, 00:32
Was it like this - http://www.solwayfeeders.com/ProductsResultsList1.asp?cat=15

Looks like the trap setter is not reading the rules...
http://www.basc.org.uk/content/foxsnarepractice

I hope you destroyed the trap....

Why do you hope he destroyed the trap? Are you suggesting that causing criminal damage is ok? Do you realise that if the trap is destroyed you are leaving yourself wide open to investigation? I think you should take a look at what you've posted and ask yourself if its whats expected of a supposedly responsible person.

Kenn
19-Apr-07, 00:44
I am gobsmacked by this...the trap might be legal but the fact that it can catch other that what was intended makes me real mad!
I also pose the question, what was it hoping to trap and what was it baited with?
Otters, foxes, badgers(no sure if you have 'em that far north.), whatever it's disgraceful.
So who's the local gamekeeper / ghillie? I'd be asking a few questions and calling in The Scottish Wildlife Protection Society.

DeHaviLand
19-Apr-07, 00:47
I am gobsmacked by this...the trap might be legal but the fact that it can catch other that what was intended makes me real mad!
I also pose the question, what was it hoping to trap and what was it baited with?
Otters, foxes, badgers(no sure if you have 'em that far north.), whatever it's disgraceful.
So who's the local gamekeeper / ghillie? I'd be asking a few questions and calling in The Scottish Wildlife Protection Society.

Call in who? Is this is a society you've just made up to suit your indignation?

Rheghead
19-Apr-07, 08:16
Why do you hope he destroyed the trap? Are you suggesting that causing criminal damage is ok? Do you realise that if the trap is destroyed you are leaving yourself wide open to investigation? I think you should take a look at what you've posted and ask yourself if its whats expected of a supposedly responsible person.

I haven't damaged it but I will make daily checks with my right to roam to ensure it is inoperable until it is moved!![lol]

johno
19-Apr-07, 08:40
Not condoning it, but maybe the trap is set by the landowner to catch foxes or such like. Seems to me that they have more right to set these thing,s than the need for your cat to be roaming about in the countryside. but then it may be just the case of poachers trapping rabbits.:~(
although not a cat lover i hope your pet has recovered from his/ her ordeal,:cool:

Rheghead
19-Apr-07, 09:25
Not condoning it, but maybe the trap is set by the landowner to catch foxes or such like. Seems to me that they have more right to set these thing,s than the need for your cat to be roaming about in the countryside. but then it may be just the case of poachers trapping rabbits.:~(
although not a cat lover i hope your pet has recovered from his/ her ordeal,:cool:

Have you thought that I may condone the setting of traps for foxes as they are a real threat to my cat as well. If the trapper just set them just beyond the range of my cat (as stated in the BASC code of practice) then we can live together in harmony. He has several thousand acres to do it in and the range of a fox is much wider than a domestic cat.

MadPict
19-Apr-07, 10:03
Actually Rheghead, foxes will go out of their way to avoid cats. We have had 3 cats and next to the house is a field which is travelled nightly by foxes - in fact, they like to spend some time 'barking' almost under the bedroom window.
There has never been any problem with the two - although I now read that urban foxes hae started to attack cats due to their food now being put in wheelie bins! (Although this is also claimed to be an urban myth.)

I don't think the rural fox has a food supply problem yet...


Why do you hope he destroyed the trap? Are you suggesting that causing criminal damage is ok? Do you realise that if the trap is destroyed you are leaving yourself wide open to investigation? I think you should take a look at what you've posted and ask yourself if its whats expected of a supposedly responsible person.

Dehaviland,
If I found my pet trapped in any device I don't know how I would react. I might remove the device for 'safekeeping' or I might render it inoperable as the owner is obviously not using it properly. I might 'stake it out' and actually see how often it is checked then report the owner to the SSPCA or rhe NFU or the BASC or the polis....

Investigation? Hmm, unless he checks the trap everyday how will he start his investigation? How will he know when it got damaged?

And if it ever happened to me my usually supposedly responsible self might just have a momentary lapse and act in the heat of the moment.....

I certainly would not leave it so it could trap some other creature....

emb123
19-Apr-07, 10:12
If I found my pet trapped in any device I don't know how I would react. I might remove the device for 'safekeeping' or I might render it inoperable as the owner is obviously not using it properly. I might 'stake it out' and actually see how often it is checked then report the owner to the SSPCA or rhe NFU or the BASC or the polis....

Investigation? Hmm, unless he checks the trap everyday how will he start his investigation? How will he know when it got damaged?

And if it ever happened to me my usually supposedly responsible self might just have a momentary lapse and act in the heat of the moment.....

I certainly would not leave it so it could trap some other creature....
That's a pretty fair statement of exactly how I would act and feel too. I would probably in the end leave the trap in place, attend to my pet and return a bit later with a sledge hammer and a warning notice to the owner, including my phone number.

golach
19-Apr-07, 10:21
That's a pretty fair statement of exactly how I would act and feel too. I would probably in the end leave the trap in place, attend to my pet and return a bit later with a sledge hammer and a warning notice to the owner, including my phone number.
I am not in favour of traps, and I am a cat lover.
But emb, I am going to be a devil's advocate here, if your cat was run down by a motor vehicle, would you respond in a similar manner, by attacking the said vehicle with a sledge hammer and a warning notice? I think not.:(

MadPict
19-Apr-07, 10:36
Ahh Golach, but if the owner of the car then drove back and forth over the cat because it wasn't quite dead then got out and kicked the remains to see if it was dead then drove off thinking he had got away scot free would you feel the same?

Leaving an animal to suffer is against the law. So the trap owner is breaking the law by not checking the trap. He obviously didn't check the trap else 'Rheghead Cat' would have been found (and hopefully) released before it got too hungry.
If he had found the cat and it was in a poorly state would he
a) take it to the vet for treatment
b) smack it over the head with a brick and toss into the undergrowth
c) let it out and not care if it managed to find its way home

Folk who set these traps set them for one reason - to get rid of 'vermin'. If the odd cat gets caught up he might consider them vermin if he loves his wee birdies. Mind you, he can't love his wee birdies that much if he is a gamekeeper - he'll be blasting his wee birdies out of the wide blue yonder for all the dosh greasing his palm by the next shooting party....

And why the opening statement?

Barry Haggerty hit one-year-old Mixey as he drove to work - then turned around and returned to the unconscious pet. The 58-year-old was caught on CCTV lining up his Renault Clio and repeatedly running over the animal as it writhed in agony.

Amazingly, the cat could have recovered from its horrific injuries until the last - and tenth - time the car went over it, crushing its skull.

A veterinary surgeon, who examined the harrowing footage, said the father-of-three was "clearly aware that his actions were causing the cat to suffer".

Haggerty, a quantity surveyor, later claimed he did not realise his car had actually run over the creature until he felt the wheels go over its skull.

However, when he was shown the CCTV tapes, he admitted he was thoroughly ashamed of what he had done.

If I saw him do that my usually supposedly responsible persona might just damage something other than his car....

buggyracer
19-Apr-07, 11:36
i just dont agree with cats roaming all over the place, if it was a dog out of control imagine the up-cry.

for all those suggesting damaging the trap (the farmer/gamekeepers property on his land) not only are you conducting a crime but your damaging your "rights to roam" two wrongs dont make a right!

the best psooible solution here is to talk the the trap setter and explian you have found your cat in it, and that whilst you dont object to him setting the trap ask could he check it more frequentlty as stated by law to do so, you never know, its good to talk?

MadPict
19-Apr-07, 12:23
So people should not be allowed to have cats as pets?
Why should they have dogs then?

What possible use could someone have for a companion animal?

Ban them all!!!!!!

How do you know it was on his land? Making assumptions there!!!!

If it was on public land then I'd take it home as found property then hand it in to the Police. And complain whilst at the Nick.

johno
19-Apr-07, 12:39
Have you thought that I may condone the setting of traps for foxes as they are a real threat to my cat as well. If the trapper just set them just beyond the range of my cat (as stated in the BASC code of practice) then we can live together in harmony. He has several thousand acres to do it in and the range of a fox is much wider than a domestic cat.
i dont know where the trap was set but if the trap was set in the normal run of a fox as the land owner would likely know. this would be set there to catch that given vermin. i guess that your cat was just unlucky. i do not have a cat so i dont really know their habits. cats i think are left to their own devices largely, and for that reason i would,nt have one. i do however own two dogs and I am responsable for their whereabouts & their conduct.
if this was set for a fox then the farmer[if it was him that set the trap] was likely having chickens etc bothered by the animal. but then i dont know it may have been set by poacher,s as i said in my earlier post.

Errogie
19-Apr-07, 20:09
I've built a couple of live mamal traps to protect my hens from various predatory species and have put a large bell on the cage which rings when the trapped animal struggles to get out and that can be heard from some distance although the contraption is close to the house.

You wouldn't believe how many cats are raking about the countryside but they never come back when you let them go particularly if you reinforce the bad experience with a bucket of cold water. Last year Mr. Brock the badger called in and after posing for a photo and delivery of a stern lecture he took of at a rate of knots and has not been seen since until last week when I came home late and there he was polishing off the cat's dinner on the back doorstep and obviously well wary of any patent traps
So long as he doesn't scoff any poultry I can probably live with that and evidence of his various rootings and excavations for worms and grubs!

Solus
19-Apr-07, 20:47
i just dont agree with cats roaming all over the place, if it was a dog out of control imagine the up-cry


Think you will find that cats are not classed the same as dogs, cats are deemed to be wild and as such can roam free with no comeback if your cat causes damage or scratches some one, dogs on the other hand have to be controlled !

I dont have a problem with cats roaming free, its in their nature, unless, like myself, i have a pedigree cat and as such she dont get out, for many reasons, mainly as she is scared of her own shadow and could not fight her way out of a paper bag !!

buggyracer
19-Apr-07, 21:29
Think you will find that cats are not classed the same as dogs, cats are deemed to be wild and as such can roam free with no comeback if your cat causes damage or scratches some one, dogs on the other hand have to be controlled !

I dont have a problem with cats roaming free, its in their nature, unless, like myself, i have a pedigree cat and as such she dont get out, for many reasons, mainly as she is scared of her own shadow and could not fight her way out of a paper bag !!

so can you just get rid of the legally if you trap them? unlike a dog i would guess?

Solus
19-Apr-07, 21:37
No i hardly think thats right, you are just being silly now ! they are classed as a animal that will stray.

johno
19-Apr-07, 21:40
i just dont agree with cats roaming all over the place, if it was a dog out of control imagine the up-cry.

for all those suggesting damaging the trap (the farmer/gamekeepers property on his land) not only are you conducting a crime but your damaging your "rights to roam" two wrongs dont make a right!

the best psooible solution here is to talk the the trap setter and explian you have found your cat in it, and that whilst you dont object to him setting the trap ask could he check it more frequentlty as stated by law to do so, you never know, its good to talk?
buggyracer, that is the most sensable post ive read on this subject:cool:

buggyracer
19-Apr-07, 21:51
No i hardly think thats right, you are just being silly now ! they are classed as a animal that will stray.

then the owners should be able to accept that if they stray they may find themselves in a situation like we are discussing?

if my dogs strayed and worried sheep, i would have to accept the consequences?

trapping vermin is part of country life, if you dont like it move to a town or city, if the trap setter is loosing numerous lambs at 40 a hit then why should he not try to prevent that by whatever means he can? it may be his livelehood we are discussing not a family pet.

Solus
19-Apr-07, 21:58
cats are not subject to the same laws pertaining to dogs, cattle etc.

Since cats are excluded from the definitions of "livestock" and "cattle" under the Animals Act 1971

also

Any person commits an offence who, through cruelty, causes any damage or injury to a cat. Thus a person who destroys or damages a cat belonging to another, may be committing an offence under the Criminal Damage Act 1971. A threat to damage or destroy a cat belonging to a third party may also be an offence.

buggyracer
19-Apr-07, 22:09
cats are not subject to the same laws pertaining to dogs, cattle etc.

Since cats are excluded from the definitions of "livestock" and "cattle" under the Animals Act 1971

also

Any person commits an offence who, through cruelty, causes any damage or injury to a cat. Thus a person who destroys or damages a cat belonging to another, may be committing an offence under the Criminal Damage Act 1971. A threat to damage or destroy a cat belonging to a third party may also be an offence.

but if someone could prove the said cat is causing damage to stock or birds id say it would be a different matter?

at the end of the day this arguement is stupid, as if rheghead would just contact the trap owner it can and probably would be all sorted?

Solus
19-Apr-07, 22:13
Fraid not,

Since cats are excluded from the definitions of "livestock" and "cattle" under the Animals Act 1971, they cannot be held guilty of trespass under civil law and, therefore, their owners or keepers cannot be liable for any damage done.

buggyracer
19-Apr-07, 22:17
Fraid not,

Since cats are excluded from the definitions of "livestock" and "cattle" under the Animals Act 1971, they cannot be held guilty of trespass under civil law and, therefore, their owners or keepers cannot be liable for any damage done.

im not suggesting they take it up with the owner if it is causing damage to stock or birds rather they take it into there own hands.

Solus
19-Apr-07, 22:20
Then if caught you would be charged with animal cruelty

buggyracer
19-Apr-07, 22:24
if i was the landowner and i could prove without doubt the cat had caused damage to my livestock or birds? i seriously doubt it?

but i may be wrong?

for the record i own no land or livestock and would not harm a cat, just playing devils advocate.

Solus
19-Apr-07, 22:27
suggest you go read up on the Animal act my friend,

buggyracer
19-Apr-07, 22:43
ive no need to because i will never find yself in a situation where i would need to know but i doubt you are correct.

Solus
19-Apr-07, 22:45
If you doubt me, go do some research into it, prove me wrong, i have been in the past, just telling it as i understand it.


http://www.yorkcats.org.uk/catlaw.htm

start there

Jeemag_USA
19-Apr-07, 22:50
For the last 2 days my cat has been missing. But this morning I went for another determined look and found it alive in a baited fox/badger flaptrap. Fortunately it wasn't any worse for its ordeal except very hungry but I have lost 2 other cats in the last 2 years. It makes me wonder if they had the same fate because I didn't find them. :(

Can you describe the trap to me, I am not sure what kind of trap your talking about. Are you sure it wasn't a Larsen Trap, these are set out for Hooded and Carrion crows and the bait could either be false eggs, real eggs, rabbits or dead lambs?

I worked in gamekeeping for a couple of years, where we worked we used only the traps we were legally allowed to, we only used Larsen Traps and wire snares for Foxes. I never liked using wire snares because we once caught a cat in one.

I have come across people through the work though who don't care what they use and will gladly kill someones cat wether its causing a problem or not, just in the wrong place at the right time.

johno
19-Apr-07, 22:58
Think you will find that cats are not classed the same as dogs, cats are deemed to be wild and as such can roam free with no comeback if your cat causes damage or scratches some one, dogs on the other hand have to be controlled ![ by solus]
that being the case isnt it about time the law was brought up to the 21st century and make cat owners responsible for their pets. Ps at some time in the past i spose dogs were wild also or is it that cats have never evolved through that stage

buggyracer
19-Apr-07, 23:01
i would imagine the type of trap to be like an oversized rat trap, ie a spring cage with one entrance baited and when the bait is moved the spring door shuts behind the captive preventing escape but no other harm.

Solus
19-Apr-07, 23:05
If you were in a car and hit a dog for instance you can hold the dog owner responsible and as such make a claim agains them, if it were a cat, its notthe case as the owner can not be held responsible as it roams.

If a change in the law was to happen, it would mean cats being kept in doors or taken out on a leash, somehow i dont think it will happen, nor in my mind is there any cause to change the current legal stance.

Nor do cats cause a problem, other than going to the toilet in your garden, which in that case you can take steps as if it became continual you could class it as health hazard .

thebigman
21-Apr-07, 09:22
Nor do cats cause a problem, other than going to the toilet in your garden, which in that case you can take steps as if it became continual you could class it as health hazard .

Unless of course you happen to be one of the millions on small mammals and birds killed each year by domestic cats.

MadPict
21-Apr-07, 10:47
I think more birds have been killed in my garden by raptors than were ever killed by our cats.

Yes they brought a few mice and voles home - even the odd young rat - but I suspect the Kestrels and owls dipped into that tuckbox more also.

And before the discussion about the decimation of the wild bird population gets too involved, remember that modern farming practices have been largely responsible for this - ripping up ancient hedgerows to provide a few more feet of crop production, constant reuse of land one season after another, spraying of pesticides on a huge scale - it has all had a massive impact on the wildlife population.

Yes, the humble moggy does kill birds but Farmer Giles has to hold his hands up as well....

DeHaviLand
21-Apr-07, 13:44
"The total number of animals brought home by about 9 million cats living in Great Britain during the five month period April-August 1997 was estimated to be in the order of 92.4 million (95% CI 85.1-100.2). This estimate can be broken down to 57.4 (52.1-63.1) million mammals, 27.1 (25.1-29.2) million birds, 4.8 (4.1-5.6) million reptiles and amphibians and 2.8 (2.3-3.4) million other items."

Conclusive proof that we really do need more cat traps.

Rheghead
21-Apr-07, 13:57
"The total number of animals brought home by about 9 million cats living in Great Britain during the five month period April-August 1997 was estimated to be in the order of 92.4 million (95% CI 85.1-100.2). This estimate can be broken down to 57.4 (52.1-63.1) million mammals, 27.1 (25.1-29.2) million birds, 4.8 (4.1-5.6) million reptiles and amphibians and 2.8 (2.3-3.4) million other items."

Conclusive proof that we really do need more cat traps.

OK, I'll reply to your troll, if that's the case, what's gonna catch the mice?