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Shabbychic
09-Sep-15, 12:23
The Scottish Parliament's Health & Sport Committee are today asking people for their view on proposed legislation which would change the consent process for the transplantation of organs. The legislation, if passed, would create a soft opt-out system which would effectively mean that organs and tissue would be available for transplant unless there is a decision to the contrary.

Members of the public are being asked to give their view through the Committee’s online survey or by writing to the Committee. - See more at: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/newsandmediacentre/91986.aspx#sthash.eKyTsE80.dpuf

cptdodger
09-Sep-15, 13:42
The Scottish Parliament's Health & Sport Committee are today asking people for their view on proposed legislation which would change the consent process for the transplantation of organs. The legislation, if passed, would create a soft opt-out system which would effectively mean that organs and tissue would be available for transplant unless there is a decision to the contrary.

Members of the public are being asked to give their view through the Committee’s online survey or by writing to the Committee. - See more at: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/newsandmediacentre/91986.aspx#sthash.eKyTsE80.dpuf

Personally I disagree with it, but I have my own reasons for that.

BetterTogether
09-Sep-15, 18:05
To some extent this means the state now has control over your body when you die. A step to far it should be the with the express permission of the individual if their body is harvested for organs after death. I have already opted out with the NHS if I do nothing whilst I live in Scotland it appears the Scottish Government is not accepting this as I have to register again.

Shabbychic
09-Sep-15, 23:30
To some extent this means the state now has control over your body when you die. A step to far it should be the with the express permission of the individual if their body is harvested for organs after death. I have already opted out with the NHS if I do nothing whilst I live in Scotland it appears the Scottish Government is not accepting this as I have to register again.

No, this does not mean the state now has control of your body when you die. The whole point of this thread is to put forward your views on the subject. Nothing has been passed or brought into law. Since you feel so strongly about this it, follow the link and state your argument. That is what this exercise is all about.

theone
10-Sep-15, 00:35
I am a registered organ donor. I passionately belive in organ donation.

I don't believe an opt out system is the way forward. It relies on presumption.

I'd like to see a promotion of the donor card scheme at a national level, and a change in the rules regarding consent. For me, the signing of a donor card should be the 'last word'. At the moment next of kin approval is still required and I think this is wrong.

I'd also like to see non-donors removed from the transplant receivers waiting list. Controversial maybe, but in my view fair. You only get if you give.

Alrock
10-Sep-15, 00:37
To some extent this means the state now has control over your body when you die....

Well, it's not much good to you anymore, so if someone else can make good use of it then why not?

davth
10-Sep-15, 07:59
I am a registered organ donor. I passionately belive in organ donation.I don't believe an opt out system is the way forward. It relies on presumption.I'd like to see a promotion of the donor card scheme at a national level, and a change in the rules regarding consent. For me, the signing of a donor card should be the 'last word'. At the moment next of kin approval is still required and I think this is wrong.I'd also like to see non-donors removed from the transplant receivers waiting list. Controversial maybe, but in my view fair. You only get if you give.In the same way that non tax payers should be removed from the benefits list?

BetterTogether
10-Sep-15, 08:04
Well, it's not much good to you anymore, so if someone else can make good use of it then why not?I used to donate plasma on a regular basis and be on the organ donation register but then I found out contrary to my beliefs that some organs donated to the NHS where being sold for profit, that's when I changed my mind and opted out.

BetterTogether
10-Sep-15, 08:06
No, this does not mean the state now has control of your body when you die. The whole point of this thread is to put forward your views on the subject. Nothing has been passed or brought into law. Since you feel so strongly about this it, follow the link and state your argument. That is what this exercise is all about.But you are oh so wrong if that state allows itself the right to harvest your organs unless you opt out then the state very much owns and decides what happens to you after death very Orwellian and right on.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 08:13
I'd also like to see non-donors removed from the transplant receivers waiting list. Controversial maybe, but in my view fair. You only get if you give.

The issue with that theone, is if you are in need of a transplant, chances are you would not be allowed to donate your organs, let alone give blood.

You could take that further and say, if the reason for needing a transplant is self inflicted, ie drugs or alcohol abuse, they should also be removed from the transplant waiting list. You have no idea the amount of damage George Best did to organ donation after receiving his liver and then continued drinking.

The whole subject is contentious.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 08:34
No, this does not mean the state now has control of your body when you die.

How else would you describe it then? This is the first I have heard they were trying to do this. Not everybody reads newspapers or watches the news, which in actual fact I haven't seen reported in either.

theone
10-Sep-15, 11:08
The issue with that theone, is if you are in need of a transplant, chances are you would not be allowed to donate your organs, let alone give blood.

You could take that further and say, if the reason for needing a transplant is self inflicted, ie drugs or alcohol abuse, they should also be removed from the transplant waiting list. You have no idea the amount of damage George Best did to organ donation after receiving his liver and then continued drinking.

The whole subject is contentious.

Of course it's contentious. But definitely worthy of discussion.

Indeed, those awaiting a transplant would probably be unsuitable donors.

My point was with healthy individuals who live their lives unwilling to donate, then suddenly require an organ. In my opinion in thus case the organs should go to someone voluntarily on the donor register.

theone
10-Sep-15, 11:10
In the same way that non tax payers should be removed from the benefits list?

Your words not mine.

But state pension is limited to those who have not contributed to 'their stamp', so it would not be unprecedented.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 11:30
Of course it's contentious. But definitely worthy of discussion.

Indeed, those awaiting a transplant would probably be unsuitable donors.

My point was with healthy individuals who live their lives unwilling to donate, then suddenly require an organ. In my opinion in thus case the organs should go to someone voluntarily on the donor register.

I totally agree, it should be discussed, I also think assisted dying should be discussed, unfortunately death and dying is still quite a taboo subject, and it shouldn't be.

Again I would imagine healthy individuals would not give organ donation a second thought. How often does it come up in conversation say at the GP's or hospital consultations ? Certainly you see all the literature, but in all honesty how many of us think about it, unless something happens to us or somebody we know?

Again, it goes back to people not wanting to think about dying, this is just my opinion though.

theone
10-Sep-15, 12:15
Those wishing to donate can register to do so here:

https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/register-to-donate/

Next of kin approval still required though.

BetterTogether
10-Sep-15, 14:04
Of course it's contentious. But definitely worthy of discussion.Indeed, those awaiting a transplant would probably be unsuitable donors. My point was with healthy individuals who live their lives unwilling to donate, then suddenly require an organ. In my opinion in thus case the organs should go to someone voluntarily on the donor register.

So now in your brave new utopian world health care is to be given free of charge only to those deemed worthy by some politically correct moral standpoint.

Where do you draw the line on who gets what treatment once you've opened the floodgates.

No liver transplants to anyone who has ever drank alcohol, no lung transplants to anyone who ever may have breathed in something they possibly shouldn't of.

No IVF to people who may have had a few sexual peccadilloes at some stage in their life.

Oh how dare you vaccinate someone against a horrible disease if they choose to visit places where they may contract them.

Couldn't possibly give medical treatment to servicemen,police or firefighters they choose to put themselves in harms way or drivers of any motor vehicle who chooses to take such a hazardous mode of transport.

The line you draw is purely arbitrary and goes against the founding principles of the NHS and is a sad reflection of today's modern politically correct society that feels it can discriminate against those considered worthy and those not as long as you have some wishy washy morally dubious rationale behind it.

theone
10-Sep-15, 14:54
The line you draw is purely arbitrary and goes against the founding principles of the NHS and is a sad reflection of today's modern politically correct society that feels it can discriminate against those considered worthy and those not as long as you have some wishy washy morally dubious rationale behind it.

I care not a jot for the founding principles of the NHS. What I care about is the health care we can provide now, some 70 years on.

I have no wish for a utopia, I just believe people should only get something out of the transplant system if they are willing to put something in. Not necessarily able, but willing.

This is a completely different subject to providing health care to smokers etc. This is not about deciding who is worthy of care or who is not.

It is purely about getting people who would willingly take an organ to commit to donating one.

BetterTogether
10-Sep-15, 15:40
Well then it's all about getting out something if you're prepared to put something in, a mere hop and skip to private healthcare. Once you've scrapped the principal of universal healthcare its opening up a Pandora's box.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 15:49
It is purely about getting people who would willingly take an organ to commit to donating one.

The thing is you start with this restriction, where does it stop? Where do children come into that scenario, I'm sure that there is an age of consent where it is up to you whether you donate your organs or not.

theone
10-Sep-15, 15:58
The thing is you start with this restriction, where does it stop? Where do children come into that scenario, I'm sure that there is an age of consent where it is up to you whether you donate your organs or not.

That would be up for debate also. I imagine if you cannot consent due to age or disability, you would not be exempt from receiving an organ.

theone
10-Sep-15, 16:06
Well then it's all about getting out something if you're prepared to put something in, a mere hop and skip to private healthcare. Once you've scrapped the principal of universal healthcare its opening up a Pandora's box.

I wouldn't call it a Pandora's box.

There's already many treatments not available on the NHS but available elsewhere. Normally for money.

We're not talking about privitisation here. It's not about excluding the poor or benefitting the rich.

It would cost nothing financially to be on the 'receivers list', just a commitment to be on the 'donor's list'.

I really don't see how this challenges the principle of universal health care free at the point of need.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 16:14
I don't know if any of you saw this http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b061b158, about transplants on BBC1, it's no longer available on the I Player, but it might be on youtube. It was very interesting, but on at some ridiculous hour (after midnight) I just came across it by accident.

Alrock
10-Sep-15, 17:44
I used to donate plasma on a regular basis and be on the organ donation register but then I found out contrary to my beliefs that some organs donated to the NHS where being sold for profit, that's when I changed my mind and opted out.

So what, still no good to you...
Where is this profit going? I hope back into the NHS, but even if it's not that is a seperate issue, they might still save a life...

In my personal opinion, anybody who refuses is just being selfish but then again we do live in a very selfish society so it doesn't suprise me in the slightest.

BetterTogether
10-Sep-15, 18:02
So what, still no good to you...Where is this profit going? I hope back into the NHS, but even if it's not that is a seperate issue, they might still save a life...In my personal opinion, anybody who refuses is just being selfish but then again we do live in a very selfish society so it doesn't suprise me in the slightest.

They where being sold to the private sector. Maybe you should investigate the procedure for organ donation before jumping all over people to try the modern bullying tactics because people disagree with you.

That'll be another bunch of people put off by the self righteous you should do what I tell you with your body attitude.


I'm obviously a lot more misanthropic than you'll ever be and don't see what the big deal about saving a few people who are hell bent on destroying the planet with their greed and self importance is anyway.

I've been around the block enough to know the human race in general isn't that wonderful a species.

7 billion is already far to many .

Alrock
10-Sep-15, 18:08
They where being sold to the private sector....

But where was the money going?
If (as I suspect) it is going back into the NHS to help save lives in another way is that not just as good?

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 18:38
In my personal opinion, anybody who refuses is just being selfish but then again we do live in a very selfish society so it doesn't suprise me in the slightest.

It's not just a case of being selfish Alrock. Google anti rejection drugs. I saw first hand the effects they had on somebody who had had a heart transplant, back in 2000, I made up my mind then, after watching what happened to that person, that I would never have a transplant. Fast forward to 2008 when I was diagnosed with an autoimmune illness, which in layman's terms means my body is rejecting my liver. I don't remember much of that consultation, as I was in shock, but I do remember the Consultant telling me my illness might result in me needing a transplant. I am on record as saying I categorically do not want one.

Try finding out the reason why people do not want to donate their organs before you dismiss people as selfish. As it turns out they would not want my organs or blood, but even if they did (whoever they are) it is not their decision to make.

Alrock
10-Sep-15, 19:04
It's not just a case of being selfish Alrock. Google anti rejection drugs. I saw first hand the effects they had on somebody who had had a heart transplant, back in 2000, I made up my mind then, after watching what happened to that person, that I would never have a transplant. Fast forward to 2008 when I was diagnosed with an autoimmune illness, which in layman's terms means my body is rejecting my liver. I don't remember much of that consultation, as I was in shock, but I do remember the Consultant telling me my illness might result in me needing a transplant. I am on record as saying I categorically do not want one..

That is a reason (albeit a good one) as to why someone might not want to recieve an organ, not a reason to not donate an organ.


Try finding out the reason why people do not want to donate their organs before you dismiss people as selfish. As it turns out they would not want my organs or blood, but even if they did (whoever they are) it is not their decision to make.

Well, just Googled "why people do not want to donate their organs" & the top results seem to be debunking the myths many people believe that put them off...

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/11/why-dont-people-want-to-donate-their-organs/382297/

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/organ-donation/art-20047529

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 19:17
That is a reason (albeit a good one) as to why someone might not want to recieve an organ, not a reason to not donate an organ.



Well, just Googled "why people do not want to donate their organs" & the top results seem to be debunking the myths many people believe that put them off...

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/11/why-dont-people-want-to-donate-their-organs/382297/

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/organ-donation/art-20047529


What I witnessed was not a myth. I am not going to go into details about the mans death, but it was bad enough that I would not want anybody else to go through what he did.

It is an individuals right to make up their own mind as to whether they wish to donate their organs or not, I cannot stress that enough.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 19:22
That is a reason (albeit a good one) as to why someone might not want to recieve an organ, not a reason to not donate an organ.



Well, just Googled "why people do not want to donate their organs" & the top results seem to be debunking the myths many people believe that put them off...

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/11/why-dont-people-want-to-donate-their-organs/382297/

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/organ-donation/art-20047529

I looked at these two links, and neither of them have the reason as to why I would not choose to donate, as I said, I have seen what happens after the transplant.

Alrock
10-Sep-15, 19:25
It is an individuals right to make up their own mind as to whether they wish to donate their organs or not, I cannot stress that enough.

I never said anything about taking away an individuals right, if that is there decision then so be it, but I don't have to agree with it.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 19:30
Having said all that, the person that posted this thread asked for our views, I was just giving mine. I can see where theone is coming from, why should you receive an organ if you are not willing to donate yourself, I do understand that, it is just not that black and white when it comes to illness, age and the person is not seen as mentally competent. They are not able to give consent for organ donation.

I have no objection if people want to donate their organs, or not as the case maybe. I just do not think ultimately, that decision should be taken out their hands.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 19:31
I never said anything about taking away an individuals right, if that is there decision then so be it, but I don't have to agree with it.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning you, I was meaning the reason for this thread in the first place.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 19:33
The Scottish Parliament's Health & Sport Committee are today asking people for their view on proposed legislation which would change the consent process for the transplantation of organs. The legislation, if passed, would create a soft opt-out system which would effectively mean that organs and tissue would be available for transplant unless there is a decision to the contrary.

Members of the public are being asked to give their view through the Committee’s online survey or by writing to the Committee. - See more at: http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/newsandmediacentre/91986.aspx#sthash.eKyTsE80.dpuf

This is what I was referring to.

cptdodger
10-Sep-15, 19:35
but I don't have to agree with it.

Of course you don't, all I was saying is why I wouldn't.

squidge
12-Sep-15, 08:28
I quite like the idea of an opt out system. Im not sure it's any more draconian or controlling than if you're not on our giving list you don't get to receive. Many folks don't think about death and our opinions can change during our lives. Imagine realising you need a transplant and for the first time understanding the need to give organs. Then being told that it's too late, you're not on the list. Imagine you are on the list by accident, it's a mistake. There would need to be an appeals process and everything. Imagine also the cost of keeping a list up to date, checking a list, amending a list as its far more crucial than now - because the accuracy of the list could be the difference in life or death. Nah, not for me. If we have an opt out the. People can still "opt out" but it makes things clearer and it's likely to lead to an increase in donations - seems like a no brainer to me

BetterTogether
12-Sep-15, 08:36
seems like a no brainer to meI have read there is chap who claims that soon head transplants will soon be possible, alas I don't think they will be able to find one that fits your particular requirements.

squidge
12-Sep-15, 08:36
BTW the NHS doesn't sell organs. Selling organs is illegal in the UK. Organs that are not needed for anyone on the transplant list are donated to others. That is sometimes a private hospital, where people pay for a transplant operation - these people are generally non EU citizens. These organs are always organs which the NHS has declined first. Organs offered to foreign recipients would otherwise have been thrown away.

We may not have enough organs but it's not just about quantity, if the NHS gets a liver for example they have to have a match for that liver, if no match then it's no use to the NHS and they allow it to go elsewhere - usually to private hospitals where foreign patients with no entitlement to free NHS treatment may be a match for an organ and therefore may get their transplant.

BetterTogether
12-Sep-15, 08:41
So the NHS give them away to private companies and then they are sold for foreign patients even though there aren't enough organs for UK patients.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9950874/NHS-organs-donated-to-foreign-patients.html


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1105062/Organs-50-NHS-donors-sold-foreigners-pay-75-000-each.html

cptdodger
12-Sep-15, 10:18
As I said, after what I witnessed in 2000, I vowed I would never have a transplant, or donate as I never wanted any other family to go through what my friend did with her husband. The time (you would think) for me to change my mind would have been when I was told a possible outcome to my illness could result in me needing a liver transplant. I didn't, I made it perfectly clear a transplant was not an option for me.

The problem being, people only get half the story, they don't get told the whole story.

Fulmar
12-Sep-15, 15:46
I have read there is chap who claims that soon head transplants will soon be possible, alas I don't think they will be able to find one that fits your particular requirements.

Ah, but will there be one for you, BT, that is the question? One that transforms you into a 'touchy-feely' lovable person who cannot do enough for his fellow humans, perhaps? Now, that really would be something to celebrate!:lol:

BetterTogether
12-Sep-15, 17:08
Ah, but will there be one for you, BT, that is the question? One that transforms you into a 'touchy-feely' lovable person who cannot do enough for his fellow humans, perhaps? Now, that really would be something to celebrate!:lol:


Now what on earth makes you think a Misanthropic Nihilist like myself feels any requirement to get touchy-feely with humanity.

On the whole I find the Human Race a constant source of enduring disappointment.

Especially the modern naive politically correct types.

With reference to the post though one thing guaranteed in life is death it's pretty unavoidable and maybe people should start learning to accept this somewhat harsh reality instead of looking toward modern medicine for more and more Frankenstein cures to extend life.

Fulmar
12-Sep-15, 17:34
I just find your comments so truly sad, BT. It is in complete contrast to my own experience as I meet so many 'ordinary' yet truly inspirational people and, to pick up on your remark, we were all naive once, even you and it is not wrong to be so.
For me, there is absolute joy in every day that is granted to me and no fear about the inevitable end, just a desire to make the most of life and not waste the time that is granted.
I speak as one who has a condition that could claim my life too but I think that I have lived a better life since I found out about it.
I hope that you do have those you love and who love you anyway and mean that most sincerely.

BetterTogether
12-Sep-15, 20:56
Being Naive when you're young is fine and dandy but the reality is most people are totally self obsessed with average modern day consumerist non exsistence. We all have a condition that could claim our lives it's called living once you learn to accept that death is profoundly inevitable then what's there to worry about. The fact you claim to have lived a better life since finding out something shows that you consider your life beforehand less than satisfactory. My life has been as it is I've been quite happy with it all the way through I eat well, sleep soundly and have ensured that my family are provided for what more could I want for.

cptdodger
12-Sep-15, 21:26
I speak as one who has a condition that could claim my life too but I think that I have lived a better life since I found out about it.

I wish I could say the same, my health has got a whole lot worse since my diagnosis due to GP's and Consultants constantly trying to "fix" me. With the exception of a bad back, I was fine until they found out what was wrong with me, which was a fluke as it was a through a random blood test.

Fulmar
13-Sep-15, 09:13
No, there you go again BT, putting meanings in where none were intended- something you often say that others do. What I said does not imply that I have been less than satisfied with my life and the way it has run its course. I've had a brilliant life without all the materialistic and acquisitive attributes that you ascribe to others . What I meant was that knowing that an illness might become terminal means that you appreciate your life even more- and lots of people find that out too. Believe me, it is different to knowing that you are just going to die at some future nebulous time. Probably the biggest change is that you do a lot less procrastinating and get on with things while you still can!

BetterTogether
13-Sep-15, 09:44
I've been on the table twice with injuries that would of been fatal had the surgeon not rectified the wounds please don't be sanctimonious and lecture me on near death experiences in can assure you I've been quite close enough to death to know its face all the pious waffling is really you struggling to deal with mortality and it's harsh reality.

Fulmar
13-Sep-15, 20:11
I've been on the table twice with injuries that would of been fatal had the surgeon not rectified the wounds please don't be sanctimonious and lecture me on near death experiences in can assure you I've been quite close enough to death to know its face all the pious waffling is really you struggling to deal with mortality and it's harsh reality.

Garbage on all counts, I'm afraid. No struggle in me- I've got Faith, remember! Something you don't like as I recall! Oh, and I would not wish what I have on anybody and if you want to childishly trade in surgical experiences then I am more than a match for you!

BetterTogether
13-Sep-15, 20:27
Garbage on all counts, I'm afraid. No struggle in me- I've got Faith, remember! Something you don't like as I recall! Oh, and I would not wish what I have on anybody and if you want to childishly trade in surgical experiences then I am more than a match for you!

It's not I dislike religion but I don't give it anymore credence than fairy tales.

Simple if you wish to believe in some mysterious being up in the nowhere that no ones ever seen spoken to or done anything except made up stories about that's fine by me .

But in the meantime what you religious types could do is give some respect to others instead of parking wherever you want around churches on Sunday's and creating hazards for others to deal with.

That's a bit more practical eh.

Difference between my surgical experiences and your is I suspect quite vast yours probably being some kind of genetic malfunction along the line your body has broken down.

Mine serving this country keeping you safe and cozy in your bed at night from all those nasty people out there who don't follow your religion or respect your views opinions or anything about you.

Vive le Difference eh !

squidge
13-Sep-15, 21:42
?...knowing that an illness might become terminal means that you appreciate your life even more- and lots of people find that out too. Believe me, it is different to knowing that you are just going to die at some future nebulous time. Probably the biggest change is that you do a lot less procrastinating and get on with things while you still can!It's at that time that many people think about the way they want to die. A good death should be something that all health services should work towards. There are a few projects going on at the moment looking at how that can happen. There were some "death cafes" happening around Scotland, these don't serve up food poisoning or anything lol, but they encourage conversations about death at a time that isn't vital or emotional. They have a menu for food and a menu for conversation subjects too. They have been quite well received I believe, although I haven't been to one myself.

Fulmar
14-Sep-15, 08:15
'But in the meantime what you religious types could do is give some respect to others instead of parking wherever you want around churches on Sunday's and creating hazards for others to deal with'.

Oh dear, oh dear!