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BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 08:51
Today in Hungary

squidge
03-Sep-15, 08:58
His name was Aylan Kurdi and he was 3 years old

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 09:05
Today in Hungary

I feel so sorry for the Hungarians, they are just trying to get on with their lives.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 09:06
But can't bring yourself to express sympathy for a dead baby?

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 09:24
But can't bring yourself to express sympathy for a dead baby?

Of course I can just as much as I can have sympathy for every other human life lost today or are we saying this one child is exceptional above all others ?

do I try and make political capital out of it.

NO

because I have some respect for the dignity of others and don't try and single out individual cases to try score a cheap point.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 09:26
I feel so sorry for the Hungarians, they are just trying to get on with their lives.It's not just Hungary that's under siege though ! It does sicken me seeing these people forming up and demanding entry as though it is a God given right to effectively invade another country.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 09:30
Oh its not a cheap political point Better Together - its not cheap at all - it costs lives. Thousands of them. There is no more EXPENSIVE political point than that.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 09:34
Ok Squidge now go troll your own thread eh you've started a thread about what your trying to force onto this one now.

Unfortunately for you no one has of yet chosen to comment on it so please respect the forum rules and try not to troll a separate thread on a completely different issue with your own agenda.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 09:37
It's not just Hungary that's under siege though ! It does sicken me seeing these people forming up and demanding entry as though it is a God given right to effectively invade another country.

Oh I know, I was just responding to that particular picture. A friend of mine driving his lorry through Calais the other day, was punched and kicked trying to stop migrants breaking into his friends lorry in front of him, with a cracked skull, two broken ribs and various other injuries he had no choice but to keep driving. So I know it's not just Hungary.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 09:41
Ok Squidge now go troll your own thread eh you've started a thread about what your trying to force onto this one now.

Unfortunately for you no one has of yet chosen to comment on it so please respect the forum rules and try not to troll a separate thread on a completely different issue with your own agenda.

You really need to look in the mirror more BT.

meanwhile

His name was Aylan Kurdi and he was THREE YEARS OLD.

Damn right im trolling

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 09:43
I'm pretty sure if we were to be shown reports from each entry point into Europe the situation wouldn't be much different anywhere. You can have every sympathy with those genuinely seeking asylum but Mr Cameron quite rightly States the solution is solving the cause of the problem not the effects.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 09:44
You really need to look in the mirror more BT. meanwhile His name was Aylan Kurdi and he was THREE YEARS OLD. Damn right im trolling


Nice to see you openly admit that you are quite deliberately breaking the forum rules I now hope that a moderator will take appropriate action.


I look in the mirror frequently but I don't see how I am responsible for the death of one child so will you kindly refrain from the harassment.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 09:57
I'm pretty sure if we were to be shown reports from each entry point into Europe the situation wouldn't be much different anywhere. You can have every sympathy with those genuinely seeking asylum but Mr Cameron quite rightly States the solution is solving the cause of the problem not the effects.

Camerons qoute is on BBC News whats also on the same article that this qoute is drawn from is : "Only the hardest of hearts would not be moved by the latest images of the people who have been caught up in the danger and chaos of this mass movement.Images of a toddler, washed up on a beach in Turkey (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34133210), ram home the sometimes deadly consequences of what is going on".

This says it all and will be my only contribution to this thread.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 09:57
His brother died too - oh and more than 2500 others - they were refugees too - isnt this a thread about refugees?

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 10:00
No one is denying that the death of any indvidual is a tragic thing but to get diverted from the greater picture doesn't resolve the issue.

You really don't need to lecture me on what death looks like Squidge unlike yourself I've seen plenty of the inhumanity mankind inflicts upon itself.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 10:07
Yes i know - you told me - several times - and I am truly sorry that you had such awful experiences.

However Aylan Kurdi was still three years old and he died in the cold sea because the EU cant get its act together to do what is right. Glad to see that Hungary is allowing the refugees to move on and get to a place where they are to be welcomed.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 10:13
Yes i know - you told me - several times - and I am truly sorry that you had such awful experiences. However Aylan Kurdi was still three years old and he died in the cold sea because the EU cant get its act together to do what is right. Glad to see that Hungary is allowing the refugees to move on and get to a place where they are to be welcomed.Obviously you have no clue about PTSD you just carry on.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 10:30
Obviously you have no clue about PTSD you just carry on.

Dear me, that's an awful thing you suffer from, I hope you are getting the help and support you deserve. Too many people come out the Armed Forces and are basically left by the wayside, which in itself is a crime after fighting for your country.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 10:32
Let's look at this pragmatically. Aylan Kurdi died before he ever reached Europe a journey undertaken by his parents many things it may be the fault of the regime in the country they where fleeing , the people traffickers who where paid to transport them. But it is not the fault of any person living within Europes. You can have all the sympathy with the situation you like but it happened not because of anything Europe is or isn't doing.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 10:34
I am truly sorry that you had such awful experiences. Many refugees suffer with PTSD too.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 10:37
Dear me, that's an awful thing you suffer from, I hope you are getting the help and support you deserve. Too many people come out the Armed Forces and are basically left by the wayside, which in itself is a crime after fighting for your country.I don't get any help or ask for any it's just one of those things and nothing will erase the memories all you can do is learn to live with them somehow. Certainly not worth wasting valuable resources on when people with cancer and other serious conditions can't get the treatment they require.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 10:49
I don't get any help or ask for any it's just one of those things and nothing will erase the memories all you can do is learn to live with them somehow. Certainly not worth wasting valuable resources on when people with cancer and other serious conditions can't get the treatment they require.

You are quite right, nothing would or does erase the memories, I still have nightmares now, I wasn't in the Armed Forces but involved in an "incident" in 1983, and I relive that day when I smell something or hear something, it is truly awful. But you are as entitled as anybody else to seek treatment, no, it might not be cancer, but it can seriously affect your health.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 10:56
Been there done that doesn't really change anything all you get is a lot of people waffling about stuff they've no experience of at you and even worse shed loads of pills which do no good.

Better off just enjoying life as much as possible and not dwelling on it.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 11:22
Cant be easy though BT. It must be hard too for those refugees with PTSD who cant begin to enjoy their lives when they have been driven from their homes and cant find a place to settle because politicians arent able to get their act together.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 11:33
As I've said before Squidge solve the cause not the effect.

Or are you suggesting that we leave the likes of Dayesh alone do nothing because it offends our liberal western sensibilities to actually do something constructive.

Maybe you're happy to have them continue beheadings, throwing homosexuals off roofs, stoning people to death, randomly shooting anyone who disagrees with them and causing mass migration of millions because all we want to do is sit on our hands and wring them at how terrible it is there are so many fleeing them.

What do you do once they've gained a stronger foothold in the Middle East and start to spread their terror further as we are already seeing on a limited scale to some extent.

If nothing else History has taught us appeasement doesn't work.

So once again instead of looking at the relatively small picture try looking at the big picture and throw out some suggestions of how we resolve the issues creating these problems.
No doubt you'll come up with some self effacing non answer about how you can't have answers for everything, which means you don't want or like the answers to where it leads.

This is the difference between you and I.

I'd like nothing more than for these people to be able to live safely and securely in their own countries, free from terror and oppression.
You seem happy to ignore that and just deal with them after they've been traumatised, raped, tortured and forced from their homelands.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 11:37
Been there done that doesn't really change anything all you get is a lot of people waffling about stuff they've no experience of at you and even worse shed loads of pills which do no good.

Better off just enjoying life as much as possible and not dwelling on it.

And you are quite right, I hope you don't think I was trying to compare what happened to me, happened to you. What I went through, you more than likely went through on a near daily basis, and I certainly don't want to take away the importance of anything you endured.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 11:50
And you are quite right, I hope you don't think I was trying to compare what happened to me, happened to you. What I went through, you more than likely went through on a near daily basis, and I certainly don't want to take away the importance of anything you endured.

We are all different and experience things differently what I've experienced doesn't detract from your experiences in the slightest.

Thankfully my better half is understanding and let's me speak when I feel like it and leaves well alone when I'm not in the mood to.

For the most part I choose not to and just carry on enjoying the best I can.

golach
03-Sep-15, 12:20
Yes i know - you told me - several times - and I am truly sorry that you had such awful experiences. However Aylan Kurdi was still three years old and he died in the cold sea because the EU cant get its act together to do what is right. Glad to see that Hungary is allowing the refugees to move on and get to a place where they are to be welcomed.Hundreds maybe even thousands of the said refugee/migrants have died in the Medeterainian this year so far, along with Hundreds rescued by British warships, but I did not notice you put up a song and dance like this before, what was wrong? Was it that above mentioned were nameless to the public.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 12:50
No mention of his 5yr old brother and mother also drowned whose names I doubt Squidge knows or has bothered to get all in a lather about.


Seems only a bit of sensationalism does the trick for Squidge.

Redsnapper
03-Sep-15, 13:38
And not very many generations ago that hundreds and hundreds of my kin left here in rotten ships bound for America and Canda because their lives had been destroyed by greed. And not to this day an apology or restitution made . Don't ever expect better from Westminster in this crisis than self interest.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 14:03
And not very many generations ago that hundreds and hundreds of my kin left here in rotten ships bound for America and Canda because their lives had been destroyed by greed. And not to this day an apology or restitution made . Don't ever expect better from Westminster in this crisis than self interest.I'm quite sure if you go far enough back in history most people's families have had abuse from other nations somewhere in the past. But playing the grievance card for things which happened a couple of centuries ago has absolutely nothing to do with the current immigration problem.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 14:08
And not to this day an apology or restitution made .

Who is it you think should make that apology ? And who are they going to apologise to ? You said yourself this happened generations ago, there is nobody left alive that made the decisions which resulted in the Clearances, and there is nobody left alive that the Clearances directly impacted. You surely cannot hold people today, whether it be Westminster or Holyrood responsible and accountable for something that happened centuries ago.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 14:16
Aylan had a brother and a mummy who died too his brothers name was Galip and his mummy was Rehan, His daddy Abdullah survived. Poor poor man. I am glad you want to know their names too BT

I am not sure what the tirade about Daesh has to do with helping these refugees

There is a convoy of aid going from Highland to connect with a ship in Newcastle on Sunday - if anyone has anything they want to donate then please PM me.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 14:23
Aylan had a brother and a mummy who died too his brothers name was Galip and his mummy was Rehan, His daddy Abdullah survived. Poor poor man. I am glad you want to know their names too BTI am not sure what the tirade about Daesh has to do with helping these refugees There is a convoy of aid going from Highland to connect with a ship in Newcastle on Sunday - if anyone has anything they want to donate then please PM me.So you don't understand what Dayesh has to do with the refugees....hmmm do you actually understand what's creating the problem or do you think it's just occurring for no particular reason.

Do you fail to understand who these people are fleeing from.


Stop the fighting and terrorism people no longer have a reason to flee their country.

About time the U.N actually started to do the job it was created for.

Why not publicly state where the collection points are for these donations Squidge instead of trying to be the only conduit if it's that much of a concern people should be able to donate freely not have to constantly PM you.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 14:27
As I've said before Squidge solve the cause not the effect.

Or are you suggesting that we leave the likes of Dayesh alone do nothing because it offends our liberal western sensibilities to actually do something constructive.

Maybe you're happy to have them continue beheadings, throwing homosexuals off roofs, stoning people to death, randomly shooting anyone who disagrees with them and causing mass migration of millions because all we want to do is sit on our hands and wring them at how terrible it is there are so many fleeing them.

What do you do once they've gained a stronger foothold in the Middle East and start to spread their terror further as we are already seeing on a limited scale to some extent.

If nothing else History has taught us appeasement doesn't work.

So once again instead of looking at the relatively small picture try looking at the big picture and throw out some suggestions of how we resolve the issues creating these problems.
No doubt you'll come up with some self effacing non answer about how you can't have answers for everything, which means you don't want or like the answers to where it leads.

This is the difference between you and I.

I'd like nothing more than for these people to be able to live safely and securely in their own countries, free from terror and oppression.
You seem happy to ignore that and just deal with them after they've been traumatised, raped, tortured and forced from their homelands.

Its a tough one isnt it, what you say is very well put and 100% correct, to my simple mind there can only be 2 solutions, regime change ( but its both the regime / civil war and the religous zealots collectively that perpetrate the terror, so thats out...also the wests track record of regime change centres around oil / wealth not people ) ) or accept that things cant be changed, the civil war goes on and religous zealouts terrorise people. People are fleeing for their lives in the biggest population displacement since WW2 ( 4 million have fled Syria ), this issue wont go away. The majority of refugees initially fled to Turkey Jordan and Lebanon, obviously some on route to europe, Germany being the preferred choice for most (supporters in a number of German football stadiums unfurled banners last week end saying "Refugees welcome"...so their plight resonates with ordinary Germans !!!!!) But surely Syrias rich arab neighbours ie Saudia Arabia, Kuwait Oman etc can help out here and take in refugees, as it stands theyre doing nothing and not getting any heat either. So a pan EU / Middle East solution is required...surely, as this wont go away. I cannot see it though, Middle East oil rich states will turn their cheeks, the UK seems out of step with most european countries.....hell even Iceland has apparently offered to take in 12,000 refugees.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 14:30
for anyone who wishes to donate to refugee aid see https://www.mercycorps.org/donate/syria and also http://www.mercycorps.org/articles/turkey-iraq-jordan-lebanon-syria/quick-facts-what-you-need-know-about-syria-crisis very informative site on the crisis

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 14:33
It's understanding the Middle eastern problem more in depth. It's about the Sunni/ Shia problem and Wahabbism all thrown in the pot and who is actually funding the different factions at each other throat.

You're quite right military intervention by western countries wouldn't solve the issue just inflame tensions and quite probably some pan Arab/EU solution may well be the way forward.

Although I suspect it won't be long before Iran starts to do more now it's being brought in from the cold by the west.
It's probably has the largest military presence in the area and is no lover of the various groups fighting in Syria/ Libya.

But if they are unleashed you'd then have major tensions with Israel,Saudi and some other countries.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 14:40
It's understanding the Middle eastern problem more in depth. It's about the Sunni/ Shia problem and Wahabbism all thrown in the pot and who is actually funding the different factions at each other throat. You're quite right military intervention by western countries wouldn't solve the issue just inflame tensions and quite probably some pan Arab/EU solution may well be the way forward. Although I suspect it won't be long before Iran starts to do more now it's being brought in from the cold by the west. It's probably has the largest military presence in the area and is no lover of the various groups fighting in Syria/ Libya. But if they are unleashed you'd then have major tensions with Israel,Saudi and some other countries.

Your well clued up on middle east geo politics....tribal hatred etc. Iran...a "Black Swan"......can cause economic havoc ie US sanctions are in process of being lifted, which means Iran can flood the market with more oil....lowers prices even more.....this hits the Saudis who are living off oil reserve money / stash whilst the oil price is low, but that cannot go on indefinitly, apparently the Koran refers to the black sand that enriches the middle east will eventually destroy it....or something along that lines. Have you heard of this ??

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 14:42
For those of you unfamiliar but interested in the various branches of Islam and main differences this may help.


http://contenderministries.org/islam/divisions.php

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 14:46
While I don't claim to know the background as to why thousands of people are fleeing Syria, what I really don't understand is why so many people (as reported on the news) are desperately trying to get there from this country. And that includes entire families, if the conditions are that horrendous, why would anybody inflict that on their children?

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 14:46
Your well clued up on middle east geo politics....tribal hatred etc. Iran...a "Black Swan"......can cause economic havoc ie US sanctions are in process of being lifted, which means Iran can flood the market with more oil....lowers prices even more.....this hits the Saudis who are living off oil reserve money / stash whilst the oil price is low, but that cannot go on indefinitly, apparently the Koran refers to the black sand that enriches the middle east will eventually destroy it....or something along that lines. Have you heard of this ??

One aspect that I've always remembered is this.
In Islam you are always protected as a guest whilst staying under their roof and will be well cared for fed and watered as the prophet " peace be upon him" would have done.

But the second you step out of that place in the morning all deals are off.

My own experiences are they don't lie and speak honestly but what they may mean with deep heartfelt desire one second isn't the same as the next second.
Things change rapidly so do their views.

It doesn't mean they've lied they meant it when they said it, then they changed their mind.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 14:48
The collection is someone's personal address and I wouldnt give you access to it

I understand the situation in the MIddle east and what is happening but these refugees are fleeing now. the majority are from Syria and they are dying now

Only in your world is it an either or situation. We can help these refugees who need help NOW and we can tackle the issues they are fleeing from. We must do both if we are to resolve this issue but conflating and equating refugees to terrorists is a smokescreen

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 14:49
For those of you unfamiliar but interested in the various branches of Islam and main differences this may help.


http://contenderministries.org/islam/divisions.php

And here was me thinking that the sunnis etc were all tribes when the reality is, now correct me if Ive got this wrong, that theyre all sub sections of Islam...all hating each other on doctrinal / religous grounds ???

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 14:51
While I don't claim to know the background as to why thousands of people are fleeing Syria, what I really don't understand is why so many people (as reported on the news) are desperately trying to get there from this country. And that includes entire families, if the conditions are that horrendous, why would anybody inflict that on their children?

People go there to participate in the war going on, they dont see horrendous conditions only " a righteous war"

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 14:54
For those of you unfamiliar but interested in the various branches of Islam and main differences this may help.


http://contenderministries.org/islam/divisions.php

So, which one of these divisions does the Islamic State, IS, ISIS, whatever they are calling themselves fall under ?

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 14:56
The collection is someone's personal address and I wouldnt give you access to it

I understand the situation in the MIddle east and what is happening but these refugees are fleeing now. the majority are from Syria and they are dying now

Only in your world is it an either or situation. We can help these refugees who need help NOW and we can tackle the issues they are fleeing from. We must do both if we are to resolve this issue but conflating and equating refugees to terrorists is a smokescreen

How can we tackle the issues they are fleeing from, how do we stop a civil war / change extremist religous zealots into peaceful muslims ?? We can pledge money, send aid help, alleviate the misery in camps etc now whilst trying to get a pan EU / Middle east solution to take the displaced but the real issues....what can we do ????

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 15:05
People go there to participate in the war going on, they dont see horrendous conditions only " a righteous war"

And that, whether anybody likes it or not is a real fear for a lot of people in this country, how do you tell the difference between a genuine refugee and somebody that has been radicalised? That, cannot be swept under the carpet.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 15:42
And that, whether anybody likes it or not is a real fear for a lot of people in this country, how do you tell the difference between a genuine refugee and somebody that has been radicalised? That, cannot be swept under the carpet.

Surely radicals will be staying put in Syria why would they want to leave ? Its the radicals in this country who want to go to Syria thats the problem.... theyre the type of people who committ mayhem, take your point though, we dont know how many bogus refugees there are ie radicals who want to gain entry into countries to create mayhem...thats whats a lot of people are frightened of...but theyve got to be a very small %....funny how attitudes differ cross EU, I loved the story about football fans in many german grounds at the week end with huge banners..." refugees welcome"...maybe German attitudes, partly because of their past history, are more tolerant, also funny how most refugees want to go to Germany. Sure there are anti refugee groups but these seem to be minority far right types.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 15:55
There were banners in the UK too Rob....:)

The reason why the refugees want to go to Germany is because Germany have suspended the need for Syrians to have visas to live there. That means that they are ENTITLED to settled in Germany without having to apply for asylum. In effect Germany has said " We accept that people coming from Syria are all refugees because of the situation in their country and we will allow them to stay here"

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 16:00
There were banners in the UK too Rob....:)

The reason why the refugees want to go to Germany is because Germany have suspended the need for Syrians to have visas to live there. That means that they are ENTITLED to settled in Germany without having to apply for asylum. In effect Germany has said " We accept that people coming from Syria are all refugees because of the situation in their country and we will allow them to stay here"

Where abouts... at what grounds are you refering to, I didnt see this make any news papers / no mention on line etc....huge difference in Germany.... just google "football grounds and banner for refugees"...its all Germany no mention of any UK grounds, didnt know that germany has suspended need for visa's, explains how migrants prefer germany.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 16:04
Surely radicals will be staying put in Syria why would they want to leave ? Its the radicals in this country who want to go to Syria thats the problem.... theyre the type of people who committ mayhem, take your point though, we dont know how many bogus refugees there are ie radicals who want to gain entry into countries to create mayhem...thats whats a lot of people are frightened of...but theyve got to be a very small %....funny how attitudes differ cross EU, I loved the story about football fans in many german grounds at the week end with huge banners..." refugees welcome"...maybe German attitudes, partly because of their past history, are more tolerant, also funny how most refugees want to go to Germany. Sure there are anti refugee groups but these seem to be minority far right types.

I sincerely hope you are right, and the radicals do want to stay in Syria, I just hope they don't view this crisis as a way of slipping in the back door, for want of a better expression. The London bombings of 2005 happened for a reason, I just hope it doesn't happen again.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 16:09
I sincerely hope you are right, and the radicals do want to stay in Syria, I just hope they don't view this crisis as a way of slipping in the back door, for want of a better expression. The London bombings of 2005 happened for a reason, I just hope it doesn't happen again.

SO do I hope radicals stay far away.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 16:13
Where abouts... at what grounds are you refering to, I didnt see this make any news papers / no mention on line etc....huge difference in Germany.... just google "football grounds and banner for refugees"...its all Germany no mention of any UK grounds, didnt know that germany has suspended need for visa's, explains how migrants prefer germany.

There are pictures circulating on social media which show "refugees Welcome" banners at celtic Park - on checking back i am not sure that they are from this weekend - they might be from earlier this year

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 16:15
There are pictures circulating on social media which show "refugees Welcome" banners at celtic Park - on checking back i am not sure that they are from this weekend - they might be from earlier this year

Thanks check out german grounds... amazing stuff huge banners all in English...dunno if a side point was being made.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 16:27
I have seen them Rob - the videos of people being welcomed in Austria this morning were amazing. Hundreds of people having to wait overnight in the train station and a local supermarket provided food, people brought camp beds for the mothers with children so they could have a decent nights sleep. In Germany the Authorities have been asking people to stop donating items for refugees because there is too much stuff. It was also good to see a passionate response from the Scottish Parliament today and several of Scotland's MPs say they would be happy to host refugees. Even Tory backbenchers are calling on David Cameron to do more. I feel like the tide is turning. Its been like a trickle, i have been all over the Highlands the last six weeks as I know you know and the local support has been wonderful but it feels like people are sitting up to take notice finally. maybe its to do with the politicians being back in Parliament so there is more to report but i dont care. Its really good

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 16:33
I have seen them Rob - the videos of people being welcomed in Austria this morning were amazing. Hundreds of people having to wait overnight in the train station and a local supermarket provided food, people brought camp beds for the mothers with children so they could have a decent nights sleep. In Germany the Authorities have been asking people to stop donating items for refugees because there is too much stuff. It was also good to see a passionate response from the Scottish Parliament today and several of Scotland's MPs say they would be happy to host refugees. Even Tory backbenchers are calling on David Cameron to do more. I feel like the tide is turning. Its been like a trickle, i have been all over the Highlands the last six weeks as I know you know and the local support has been wonderful but it feels like people are sitting up to take notice finally. maybe its to do with the politicians being back in Parliament so there is more to report but i dont care. Its really good

From a human perspective yes genuinely very heart warming, politically Im making no comments other than what is needed is a joint EU / Middle East solution, points Ive made on this thread.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 16:48
So, which one of these divisions does the Islamic State, IS, ISIS, whatever they are calling themselves fall under ?Isis fall under the radical Sunni side of life.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 16:55
It's all very well saying we should do more but this year is the first year we haven't taken more immigrants so a bit of political point scoring from Germany doesn't really carry much weight.

France, Germany infact most of the European countries have much more land to resettle these people in and have previously done very little so maybe it's about time they did actually step up to the plate for a change.

There is also plenty of room in other countries around the localised region which could do more but are doing nothing so it's a bit rich saying we should do more and more and more when those shouting for more have traditionally done very little.
Another issue is a lot of people claiming to be Syrian refugees are from other countries but have destroyed their paperwork so as to be able to mix in.
It's not a black and white situation and there are no black and white solutions.

But the reality is other countries should step up and pull their weight instead of relying on the UKs traditionally openness to accept refugees.

It's very easy to demand that the UK take more refugees but it's not going to be the Highlands that bears the brunt of the influx it will be the already densely populated cities and towns down south. Until you've experience of the problems this creates in some areas be very careful what you wish on others but don't have to deal with yourself.

Imagine the outcry if Wick or Thurso suddenly had say 1,000 refugees injected into the community in fairly short order.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 17:50
Isis fall under the radical Sunni side of life.

Ah right, thank you. Life would be so much simpler if everybody that was religious just followed one God.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 18:05
Ah right, thank you. Life would be so much simpler if everybody that was religious just followed one God.Technically Muslims, Christians and Jews do all follow the same God. Problem come in that the Jews don't accept Jesus was the son of God. The Muslims accept he was a prophet but Mohamed was also a prophet. Look at the multi factions you have within Christianity alone to see the problem it causes. One man interprets it one way another differently they can't agree so two new factions are created then it splits again and again. All the same one God all of them just as deluded about how they are right and everyone else is wrong. All claiming they want peace but constantly starting wars off down through the centuries and killing millions in the process. At the end of day not a shred of proof that God actually exists and isn't just an amalgam of previously held Gods rolled into one more easily digested and manipulated for whatever purpose you desire deity. Let's not forget the other religions Buddism and Hinduism. If I'm correct Hiduism is probably the older out of the Bunch. Buddism certainly predates Islam but was pushed out of its native country of origin Pakistan by Islam and off over to Tibet, China.

Now don't even try to understand the various ethnic and tribal partitions of the Middle East, North Africa,Balkans and Indian Sub Continent or you'll really give yourself a headache. All divided by more petty rubbish than you'd care to know about and all out for a fight without too much of an excuse frequently using arguments that go back centuries.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 18:22
Technically Muslims, Christians and Jews do all follow the same God. Problem come in that the Jews don't accept Jesus was the son of God. The Muslims accept he was a prophet but Mohamed was also a prophet. Look at the multi factions you have within Christianity alone to see the problem it causes. One man interprets it one way another differently they can't agree so two new factions are created then it splits again and again. All the same one God all of them just as deluded about how they are right and everyone else is wrong. All claiming they want peace but constantly starting wars off down through the centuries and killing millions in the process. At the end of day not a shred of proof that God actually exists and isn't just an amalgam of previously held Gods rolled into one more easily digested and manipulated for whatever purpose you desire deity. Let's not forget the other religions Buddism and Hinduism. If I'm correct Hiduism is probably the older out of the Bunch. Buddism certainly predates Islam but was pushed out of its native country of origin Pakistan by Islam and off over to Tibet, China.

Now don't even try to understand the various ethnic and tribal partitions of the Middle East, North Africa,Balkans and Indian Sub Continent or you'll really give yourself a headache. All divided by more petty rubbish than you'd care to know about and all out for a fight without too much of an excuse frequently using arguments that go back centuries.

It is just so complicated, I never knew that about Buddism though starting in Pakistan, I honestly thought it originated in Tibet.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 18:33
It's very easy to demand that the UK take more refugees but it's not going to be the Highlands that bears the brunt of the influx it will be the already densely populated cities and towns down south. Until you've experience of the problems this creates in some areas be very careful what you wish on others but don't have to deal with yourself.

Imagine the outcry if Wick or Thurso suddenly had say 1,000 refugees injected into the community in fairly short order.


And that is a very good point.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 18:59
How come if France and Germany haven't been doing their share they have the same percentage of their population who are immigrants as the UK? Oh let's see. Britain has taken 200 refugees that's hardly doing OUR share is it

And all this about different religions and which are good and which are not so good makes no difference. A dead child is a dead child, 2500 dead people are still 2500 dead people. You can't tell what religion they are when they are dead.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 19:10
And at last David Cameron has said that Britain WILL take more refugees - who says public pressure doesn't work or that we can't make a difference.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-to-take-more-refugees-as-cameron-bows-to-pressure-after-more-than-100000-thousand-back-our-campaign-10485195.htmlThe

Aid collections have gone crazy today and there are folk coming down from Caithness tomorrow and Saturday. Any of you who got the Inverness details who want the Caithness details then PM me.

theone
03-Sep-15, 19:15
This is a difficult and tragic situation, but in this - as in most things - I'd prefer to see the cause of the problem eliminated. You can give paracetamol to help a headache but if the cause is a tumour, sooner or later you're going to have to operate.

Syria was, and can be again, a wonderful country with wealth and culture. Only by stopping the fighting there can it be again. But history shows us that rarely do refugees return 'home' after the famine/war/tyranny is over.

The numbers coming to Europe are huge, tens and hundreds of thousands, but to take these people in and provide for them is to do so for the minority. The vast majority of Syrians who suffer are still in Syria and will never leave. Those without the money or ability to pack up and head for Europe. To help those arriving in the boats is a disservice to those left where the real trouble is.

Britain might be getting all sorts of accusations thrown at it at the moment, but the fact is, whatever we do today with these refugees is irrelevant. Because tomorrow, once Germany has taken them in and given them passports they are free to come to the UK to live/work as any other 'European'.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 19:19
It's not irrelevant to the refugees though theone and its only a disservice when we opt for BTs you can do one or the other but not both. Our response needs to be to do both

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 19:23
How come if France and Germany haven't been doing their share they have the same percentage of their population who are immigrants as the UK? Oh let's see. Britain has taken 200 refugees that's hardly doing OUR share is itAnd all this about different religions and which are good and which are not so good makes no difference. A dead child is a dead child, 2500 dead people are still 2500 dead people. You can't tell what religion they are when they are dead.

As per usual you're remarkably selective about quoting figures.

Between 2006 and 2010 we accepted almost 10,000 more over the five year period than Germany.

2014 some 32344 applied the highest number since 2004. First quarter of 2015 is 7435. In the first three months Germany received 83130 so they'd have to massively ramp up their processing to attain 800,000.

Very few genuine Syrians are turned down although increasingly people from other countries destroy their papers and claim to be Syrian.

Lord Green of Deddington from Migration watch argues, based on on the UKs net migration rate of 330,000 last year, our total population would grow by 3 million every 5 years.

Contrasting this to Germany with its low birth rate its population would fall by 25% if it had no net migration.

England is nearly twice as crowded as Germany and has more migrants per head of population.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 19:27
How come if France and Germany haven't been doing their share they have the same percentage of their population who are immigrants as the UK? Oh let's see. Britain has taken 200 refugees that's hardly doing OUR share is itAnd all this about different religions and which are good and which are not so good makes no difference. A dead child is a dead child, 2500 dead people are still 2500 dead people. You can't tell what religion they are when they are dead.Everyday approximately 151600 people die I don't see or hear you wringing your hands to save all of them.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 19:30
It's not irrelevant to the refugees though theone and its only a disservice when we opt for BTs you can do one or the other but not both. Our response needs to be to do both

Yup we can give them temporary asylum and papers then return them all home when their country settles down.

No problem with that, but that's not what's on offer is it.

Reality is you're talking about permanently giving residence to these people once they make it these shores with no attempt to ever repatriate any of them.

Also why is it all these people so desperate to escape fear and oppression aren't happy to be processed in Hungary but are creating all manner of problems because they WANT to go to Germany.

Surely any decent country is good enough if you're a genuine asylum seeker where as a economic migrant would have a very distinct idea of which country they want to live in.

theone
03-Sep-15, 19:32
It's not irrelevant to the refugees though theone and its only a disservice when we opt for BTs you can do one or the other but not both. Our response needs to be to do both

It's obviously not irrelevant to them.

But I don't see how giving people asylum is helping the situation. Sure, help these people with their short terms needs, but why should they be getting citizenship? Lets sort out Syria then send them all home again. There's no need to keep them here.

I feel true sorrow for what these people faced at home. But they aren't fleeing a war in Turkey. Or in Greece. Or in Hungary. But they still want to leave these places. Every night thousands try to get through the channel tunnel. Remind me what persecution or war or famine they are escaping from in France?

Fix Syria then send them home.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 19:43
You may very well be right, but if we keep people as stateless almost, in a situation where they can't return home but can't stay, can't work, they can't begin to rebuild their lives or settle. They daren't marry or gave children if the threat of being forcibly returned home whether they like it or not is there. That might take 20 years, 30, how long do we make them wait before allowing them to stay?

They want to get from Hungary into Germany because they will have those rights in Germany. What we know about Calais is that many of those people are waiting for their asylum applications to be decided, many have relatives in Britain so they want to be here for that reason. And actually, having a connection to a country is a reason to allow people to claim asylum out with the first country they arrive in. Turkey already has 2 million refugees and is struggling with little support from the international community. Greece too is struggling. It's no wonder refugees move through these places. It's a mess, but it's not a mess simply because of the refugees, it's a mess because the governments have failed to work together in the way they should have done

theone
03-Sep-15, 19:53
You may very well be right, but if we keep people as stateless almost in a situation where they can't return home but can't stay, can't work, they can't begin to rebuild their lives or settle. They daren't marry or gave children if the threat of being forcibly returned home whether they like it or not is there. That might take 20 years, 30, how long do we make them wait before allowing them to stay?

Good question.

It might take a long time, or maybe only a couple of years.

Maybe we could grant them a 2, 3 or 5 year Visa, after which time they could apply permantly (if they were a benefit for us) or be sent home.

But that's where the debate with government should be, not 'let them all in' or 'do our share'.

As much as I realise this subject divides the population here, I can't help but feel that tens of thousabds of Arabs and Africans crossing into Britain with German passports is going to have a negative effect on trying to stay in the EU following the referendum.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 19:53
They aren't stateless though Squidge unless they've destroyed their papers and made themselves as such.

What you're actually suggesting is we open our doors to mass immigration again not allowing asylum seekers to reside in safety until their countries become safe again. Also we just accept their word they are from Syria despite evidence to the contrary being freely available.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 19:58
And you know what BT it matters not what you say any more honey, the response for aid has gone through the roof today we can't keep up! David Cameron has been forced to do the right thing and compassion is winning the day. You can take your figures and stuff them :) I'm proud of the things that are being done and the changes that are happening. it's fantastic and hopefully we will no longer have to see pictures of dead babies on European beaches. I'm so pleased tonight that things are looking even a little more hopeful I could almost Kiss YOU! I'm off to organise sorters and helpers. You can volunteer to help if you would like ;)

gleeber
03-Sep-15, 20:11
That's great Squidge. I could handle a small family for a while.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 20:21
Oh and Celtic are having a legends match this weekend with Dunfermline and the proceeds are going to refugees :) more smiles :)

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 20:24
And you know what BT it matters not what you say any more honey, the response for aid has gone through the roof today we can't keep up! David Cameron has been forced to do the right thing and compassion is winning the day. You can take your figures and stuff them :) I'm proud of the things that are being done and the changes that are happening. it's fantastic and hopefully we will no longer have to see pictures of dead babies on European beaches. I'm so pleased tonight that things are looking even a little more hopeful I could almost Kiss YOU! I'm off to organise sorters and helpers. You can volunteer to help if you would like ;)There we have a prime example of Squidge at her self righteous best, she takes a few examples and whips them up into the whole nation walking in step behind her. You can take your contributions and followers but that doesn't mean the whole country enmasse is behind you. How about time you started caring about your own country and the residents within rather than blindly leaping from cause to cause without any thought given to the long term ramifications or your actions.Just more demeaning conflated piffle from you as usual.

gleeber
03-Sep-15, 20:28
Boy boy. What a nasty bit of work you are Mr Together

squidge
03-Sep-15, 20:48
Oh BT! I guess we have already established you think it's impossible to do more than one thing at once. Fortunately most of us are able to do a few things at once. What a spiteful thing you are. I hope the tide is turning BT but if it's not I'll keep juggling stuff to make time for this until it does. After all it's not like it's just me. There are LOADS of us!

Rheghead
03-Sep-15, 21:44
No one is denying that the death of any indvidual is a tragic thing but to get diverted from the greater picture doesn't resolve the issue.

You really don't need to lecture me on what death looks like Squidge unlike yourself I've seen plenty of the inhumanity mankind inflicts upon itself.

I'd say the death of a 3 year old plus 2500 others is the greater picture.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 22:38
I'd say the death of a 3 year old plus 2500 others is the greater picture.

Okay, let's put it another way, what would prevent, or have prevented the deaths of a 3 year old and another 2500 people? What would have stopped them paying people smugglers thousands of pounds (or whatever their currency is) ? What would have prevented and prevent thousands of people risking their lives fleeing their countries in boats/dinghy's, basically anything they can get their hands on whether it is sea worthy or not?

In my opinion, it is getting the root of the problem, or the reason it is happening sorted out. How they accomplish that I do not know, I am not a politician or a world leader, but unless this is done, and rapidly, thousands upon thousands more will die, they will not stop coming. It is all very well and good saying Britain should take more refugees, but they are dying, literally to get here. Why can't any of you understand that?

Rheghead
03-Sep-15, 22:48
Okay, let's put it another way, what would prevent, or have prevented the deaths of a 3 year old and another 2500 people? What would have stopped them paying people smugglers thousands of pounds (or whatever their currency is) ? What would have prevented and prevent thousands of people risking their lives fleeing their countries in boats/dinghy's, basically anything they can get their hands on whether it is sea worthy or not?

In my opinion, it is getting the root of the problem, or the reason it is happening sorted out. How they accomplish that I do not know, I am not a politician or a world leader, but unless this is done, and rapidly, thousands upon thousands more will die, they will not stop coming. It is all very well and good saying Britain should take more refugees, but they are dying, literally to get here. Why can't any of you understand that?

I would say a concerted international response with proper transport from Syria and Libya etc to properly supplied and funded refugee facilities would have saved that child's life.

We cannot stop these people trying to make it across. If our government is happy to just accomodate those that make the crossing then it makes me think that our government are happy for thousands to run the gauntlet as a means of a cost cutting exercise.

theone
03-Sep-15, 23:08
We cannot stop these people trying to make it across. If our government is happy to just accomodate those that make the crossing then it makes me think that our government are happy for thousands to run the gauntlet as a means of a cost cutting exercise.

And there is the crux of the matter.

We're 'rewarding' the law breakers. Those who have paid people traffickers, organised criminals, thousands to smuggle them on boats or in tucks.Those leaving Turkey on inflatable boats with no lifejackets. Those refusing to claim asylum on their entry point to the EU (as genuine asylum seekers should by law) but demanding to get to Sweden, the UK or Germany because Greece, Hungary or Italy isn't 'what they want'.

Lets help those not 'running the gauntlet', lets help those at home in Syria or Lybia who don't want to break the law, can't afford to pay the criminals, or those who value their home and country and want to stay and make it better.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 23:13
I would say a concerted international response with proper transport from Syria and Libya etc to properly supplied and funded refugee facilities would have saved that child's life.

We cannot stop these people trying to make it across. If our government is happy to just accomodate those that make the crossing then it makes me think that our government are happy for thousands to run the gauntlet as a means of a cost cutting exercise.

From what I have read, it appears to me that it is once the people are in Europe, be it Greece, Calais, wherever it is they land, those will be the ones Britain and other countries will take. As I said though, the majority are dying on the way there. I am no expert, but I highly doubt a European presence would be allowed in Syria or Lybia in order to transport refugees out of those countries.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 23:22
These poor people HAVE to pay the smugglers, they have to get on the boats, into the lorries, they have to and there are two reasons for that.

One is that there is no other way to get out - to get to Europe. They can't jump on a plane to land at Heathrow there are no safe routes for refugees because so few countries are recognising them as refugees.

The second reason is that it is better to take their chances that way than stay - the situation is so bad that they cannot remain in their homes. Their children are in worse danger in Syria than in a dodgy boat. Their own lives their children's lives are so precarious where they live that leaving is the only choice. If you understand that. If you can imagine the terror, the panic, the dreadful dreadful fear that these people must be feeling then you can start to understand why they take that risk.

This isn't some fear of murder and rape that we all have when our children aren't back when they say they will be, real though that is, thankfully most of us never have to see that through to its worst conclusion. This is fear like that, 1000 times worse than that every minute of every day. Even in your bed, if you are lucky to have a house still standing, you are frightened of the door going in, the chemical attack, the militia, the government, the butchering of children, the gang rape of a young girl.

Leaving for Europe stops feeling like you put your children at risk and starts to feel like the only way to keep them safe. Understand that and you can see that the "fault" for this crisis lies not with the refugees themselves but with governments that KNOW these people are refugees but fail to provide safe routes, refugee facilities, evacuations and planned dispersal. We absolutely HAVE to work to improve the situation in Syria and the Middle East but not to the exclusion of dealing with the human crisis.Just think about it.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 23:30
The BBC have been roundly criticised for this but it's an interesting concept which gives you the chance to think about the. Decisions facing these refugees. I don't know what I think about it but you might find it interesting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32057601

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 23:37
And there is the crux of the matter.

We're 'rewarding' the law breakers. Those who have paid people traffickers, organised criminals, thousands to smuggle them on boats or in tucks.Those leaving Turkey on inflatable boats with no lifejackets. Those refusing to claim asylum on their entry point to the EU (as genuine asylum seekers should by law) but demanding to get to Sweden, the UK or Germany because Greece, Hungary or Italy isn't 'what they want'.

Lets help those not 'running the gauntlet', lets help those at home in Syria or Lybia who don't want to break the law, can't afford to pay the criminals, or those who value their home and country and want to stay and make it better.


You explain it better than I do. This is from the BBC News website -

David Cameron has said that "taking more and more" people will not solve the problem, and the focus should be on bringing "peace and stability" to war-ravaged parts of the world people were fleeing from, such as Syria.


Immigration Minister James Brokenshire said the UK had contributed £900m in humanitarian aid to help with the Syrian crisis.


People on here are quick enough to condemn the benefit cuts, the bedroom tax and so on, basically they blame Westminster for everything, but, where do they think the £900m is coming from? Something has to give.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 23:45
Boy boy. What a nasty bit of work you are Mr Together
Oh BT! I guess we have already established you think it's impossible to do more than one thing at once. Fortunately most of us are able to do a few things at once. What a spiteful thing you are. I hope the tide is turning BT but if it's not I'll keep juggling stuff to make time for this until it does. After all it's not like it's just me. There are LOADS of us!It really doesn't take you oh so caring people to resort to name calling when someone disagrees with your standpoint. I just happen to not swallow every drop of media hysteria that you do and happen to believe that a different approach is required rather than just allowing every person turning up and telling the same story deserves a lifetimes access to Europe. I haven't once said those worth do not deserve asylum but I'm also realistic enough to accept that not everyone is telling the truth and using the situation to their own advantage. It's not as though Economic Migrants are a new phenomenon.



These poor people HAVE to pay the smugglers, they have to get on the boats, into the lorries, they have to and there are two reasons for that. One is that there is no other way to get out - to get to Europe. They can't jump on a plane to land at Heathrow there are no safe routes for refugees because so few countries are recognising them as refugees. The second reason is that it is better to take their chances that way than stay - the situation is so bad that they cannot remain in their homes. Their children are in worse danger in Syria than in a dodgy boat. Their own lives their children's lives are so precarious where they live that leaving is the only choice. If you understand that. If you can imagine the terror, the panic, the dreadful dreadful fear that these people must be feeling then you can start to understand why they take that risk. This isn't some fear of murder and rape that we all have when our children aren't back when they say they will be, real though that is, thankfully most of us never have to see that through to its worst conclusion. This is fear like that, 1000 times worse than that every minute of every day. Even in your bed, if you are lucky to have a house still standing, you are frightened of the door going in, the chemical attack, the militia, the government, the butchering of children, the gang rape of a young girl. Leaving for Europe stops feeling like you put your children at risk and starts to feel like the only way to keep them safe. Understand that and you can see that the "fault" for this crisis lies not with the refugees themselves but with governments that KNOW these people are refugees but fail to provide safe routes, refugee facilities, evacuations and planned dispersal. We absolutely HAVE to work to improve the situation in Syria and the Middle East but not to the exclusion of dealing with the human crisis.Just think about it.

Squidge you really ought to brush up on your geographic knowledge before spouting off hysterical posts about how people can't get from Syria without jumping on a boat there are land routes which are far less treachorus than cutting across the Mediterranean.
You can quite readily access Turkey from Syria or they could go to Iran or Egypt, Saudi Arabia all countries which are culturally more similar to them than Europe.
So please stop the melodrama and start realising that yes Syria is having a civil war, but the route across the Mediterranean is by far the most dangerous route you can choose to use.
How about you rant at why the countries that surround Syria aren't doing their bit by allowing refugees to enter them. What we are dealing with is the work of organised criminals exploiting these people for profit. Imagine how those criminals run their hands in glee when soft liberal westerners buy hook line and sinker into their cynical creation of a very nice big business raking in millions to the very people they are fleeing from.

Try checking a map out it may help you understand the realities. Strange how people fly from here to Turkey and walk across the border to Syria but you seem to think they can only escape by boat.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Middle+East/@53.423203,81.9875334,4z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x157ec4658142ffb7:0xa5b8320215ea7 2c?hl=en

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 00:04
Here's a BBC article on the gulf states not taking refugees

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34132308

Another on fake Syrian passports being sold

http://www.politico.eu/article/migration-fake-syrian-passports-asylum-request-frontex/

And another describing US intelligence hearing plans to smuggle ISIS into Europe using refugees as a Trojan horse

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-terrorists-disguised-refugees-trojan-horse-plot-against-europe-1468701

EyeCarntSpell
04-Sep-15, 07:34
I see the usual bleeding hearts are getting all in a tizzy about the picture of a dead child on a beach, what a bunch of media puppets. The simple fact is that kid is dead because his father is a complete and utter idiot .. simple as that. The family were NOT in Syria, they were living in Istanbul. They were safe. They had tried to claim asylum in Canada and been refused. They could have got a train from Turkey, where they were safe, to anywhere. So the father, in his infinite wisdom then decided to float his kids on a tractor tyre without lifejackets to god knows where. And his kids and wife died, and apparently its all our fault even though this sorry saga reads like a Darwin Award. I have thought for a while that large portions of the human race is just a failed experiment, and watching the reactions of some people just proves it. And what does caring Dad do after his actions have resulted in the deaths of his family ?? .. he decides to back to Syria to bury them. The same country that is apparently too dangerous for him to stay in. And people are buying this ?? .. its like watching clowns stagger through a minefield. Funny but ultimately tragic.

Children have been dying on these routes for months but put a picture in the paper of a child killed by his father stupidity and watch the puppets dance. Its tragic watching your fellow humans go full retard to that extent. If a Brit living in Britian had taken his wife and two kids out on a tractor tyre at the beach in such a fashion and they died the same media would be baying for his blood. Still it allows people to rock up on Faceache and Twatter and feel all humanitarian and stuff doesnt it ??, its like the grief addicts at Shoreham lining up to mourn people they never knew nor cared about the day of the accident. They even played the Last Post, despite the fact all the victims were civilians.

Wake up idiots and smell the coffee. YOU are the same people who gave knowingly to Band Aid to feed the Ethiopians, and what happened there ?? .. well lets see. The Ethiopian President imposed a charge on the food aid and demanded it be distrubted by them. A large chunk is then bought by the Yemini's and finds its way to Saudi Arabia where it is used as subsidised wheat to counter the high cost of producing it there, however some of it is then sent back to Ethiopia as food aid. And Bob Geldof gets a knighthood. Well done bleeding hearts all you did was make a man happy to do nothing but watch his people starve rich. I was told that by a guy who was there in 1984.

These "migrants" have run out of their country after a CIVIL war and expect the rest of the world to just give them what they want when they want it. I have watched a lot of coverage and none of these people seem to be grateful to be safe. All I see is "I want, I want", on the BBC there was a clip of a man (and I use that word loosely) push a woman and a child to the ground and I swear it was for the benefit of the cameras. Cue the BBC cutting to the nasty Hungarian Police with batons. All their fault of course.

These people need to sod off home and sort their country out. All these young men of fighting age running away and expecting the rest of the world to put them up and gift them a new life, well Britian is broke. Where is the money going to come from ??, and these are just the tip of the iceberg. We made a rod for our own backs when we started doing the people traffickers job for them and giving their customers a lift with the grey funnel line. Seventy five years ago we had just declared war on Nazi Germany, we didnt round up the family and sod off to the first country we saw and then demand we be allowed to do what we damn well like. My grandad and millions others stood their ground and fought back, they didnt stick wife and kidlets on a tractor tyre and set paddling for Canada. Even if he did he would have remembered a life jacket if only for the kids. Still you only have to look at recent history to see the mentality, happy to band together and protest about cartoons but crying and whining for us to do their fighting when they are threatened a la Saudi when Saddam rocked up on the border. The really sick thing is that the same leftist hand wringing types getting all faux outraged over this situation caused by ISIS were the same ones complaining about Saddam, and he kept the very factions that became ISIS in check.

By the way how is the young British girl who was gang raped at Calais ??, not heard much about that in the Media .. I wonder why. Could it be because we cannot say anything nasty about these lovely people ??

No doubt Britian will take thousands. Cameron is a jellyfish. I saw we billet them with those shouting the loudest. See how keen they are when they are living with six people who care not a jot about them, their culture or their beliefs. Could be fun that. I live among arabs right now and believe me, if these "migrants" were being treated in the way I am out here at times there would be arms flying up left right and centre. Why do I do it ??, because I love my job. I help people on a daily basis and to me thats the most important thing. But it also means I get to see the very worst of humanity. Last week I airlifted an girl who had been gang raped by her uncle, cousin and two friends. She was thirteen. Her uncle was Syrian. Want him living next door to you ??

Hand wringers .. If you think that children killed through the stupidity of their parents and people who are perfectly safe acting like entitled ingrates is the worst life can offer you need to step away from the keyboard, dump the outrage and rhetoric and look at whats actually happening.

Thank God I am going to be in a remote area for the next six weeks, I wont have access to wifi or even Television. I wont be tempted to read some of the drivel on this subject.

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 08:03
I see the usual bleeding hearts are getting all in a tizzy about the picture of a dead child on a beach, what a bunch of media puppets. The simple fact is that kid is dead because his father is a complete and utter idiot .. simple as that. The family were NOT in Syria, they were living in Istanbul. They were safe. They had tried to claim asylum in Canada and been refused. They could have got a train from Turkey, where they were safe, to anywhere. So the father, in his infinite wisdom then decided to float his kids on a tractor tyre without lifejackets to god knows where. And his kids and wife died, and apparently its all our fault even though this sorry saga reads like a Darwin Award. I have thought for a while that large portions of the human race is just a failed experiment, and watching the reactions of some people just proves it. And what does caring Dad do after his actions have resulted in the deaths of his family ?? .. he decides to back to Syria to bury them. The same country that is apparently too dangerous for him to stay in. And people are buying this ?? .. its like watching clowns stagger through a minefield. Funny but ultimately tragic.

Children have been dying on these routes for months but put a picture in the paper of a child killed by his father stupidity and watch the puppets dance. Its tragic watching your fellow humans go full retard to that extent. If a Brit living in Britian had taken his wife and two kids out on a tractor tyre at the beach in such a fashion and they died the same media would be baying for his blood. Still it allows people to rock up on Faceache and Twatter and feel all humanitarian and stuff doesnt it ??, its like the grief addicts at Shoreham lining up to mourn people they never knew nor cared about the day of the accident. They even played the Last Post, despite the fact all the victims were civilians.

Wake up idiots and smell the coffee. YOU are the same people who gave knowingly to Band Aid to feed the Ethiopians, and what happened there ?? .. well lets see. The Ethiopian President imposed a charge on the food aid and demanded it be distrubted by them. A large chunk is then bought by the Yemini's and finds its way to Saudi Arabia where it is used as subsidised wheat to counter the high cost of producing it there, however some of it is then sent back to Ethiopia as food aid. And Bob Geldof gets a knighthood. Well done bleeding hearts all you did was make a man happy to do nothing but watch his people starve rich. I was told that by a guy who was there in 1984.

These "migrants" have run out of their country after a CIVIL war and expect the rest of the world to just give them what they want when they want it. I have watched a lot of coverage and none of these people seem to be grateful to be safe. All I see is "I want, I want", on the BBC there was a clip of a man (and I use that word loosely) push a woman and a child to the ground and I swear it was for the benefit of the cameras. Cue the BBC cutting to the nasty Hungarian Police with batons. All their fault of course.

These people need to sod off home and sort their country out. All these young men of fighting age running away and expecting the rest of the world to put them up and gift them a new life, well Britian is broke. Where is the money going to come from ??, and these are just the tip of the iceberg. We made a rod for our own backs when we started doing the people traffickers job for them and giving their customers a lift with the grey funnel line. Seventy five years ago we had just declared war on Nazi Germany, we didnt round up the family and sod off to the first country we saw and then demand we be allowed to do what we damn well like. My grandad and millions others stood their ground and fought back, they didnt stick wife and kidlets on a tractor tyre and set paddling for Canada. Even if he did he would have remembered a life jacket if only for the kids. Still you only have to look at recent history to see the mentality, happy to band together and protest about cartoons but crying and whining for us to do their fighting when they are threatened a la Saudi when Saddam rocked up on the border. The really sick thing is that the same leftist hand wringing types getting all faux outraged over this situation caused by ISIS were the same ones complaining about Saddam, and he kept the very factions that became ISIS in check.

By the way how is the young British girl who was gang raped at Calais ??, not heard much about that in the Media .. I wonder why. Could it be because we cannot say anything nasty about these lovely people ??

No doubt Britian will take thousands. Cameron is a jellyfish. I saw we billet them with those shouting the loudest. See how keen they are when they are living with six people who care not a jot about them, their culture or their beliefs. Could be fun that. I live among arabs right now and believe me, if these "migrants" were being treated in the way I am out here at times there would be arms flying up left right and centre. Why do I do it ??, because I love my job. I help people on a daily basis and to me thats the most important thing. But it also means I get to see the very worst of humanity. Last week I airlifted an girl who had been gang raped by her uncle, cousin and two friends. She was thirteen. Her uncle was Syrian. Want him living next door to you ??

Hand wringers .. If you think that children killed through the stupidity of their parents and people who are perfectly safe acting like entitled ingrates is the worst life can offer you need to step away from the keyboard, dump the outrage and rhetoric and look at whats actually happening.

Thank God I am going to be in a remote area for the next six weeks, I wont have access to wifi or even Television. I wont be tempted to read some of the drivel on this subject.

Just you wait for the backlash to commence, but very, very well put.

squidge
04-Sep-15, 08:14
It really doesn't take you oh so caring people to resort to name calling when someone disagrees with your standpoint. I just happen to not swallow every drop of media hysteria that you do and happen to believe that a different approach is required rather than just allowing every person turning up and telling the same story deserves a lifetimes access to Europe. I haven't once said those worth do not deserve asylumThis was your standpoint as I remember and every post you make , makes it absolutely clear that you think these people do not, should not be given asylum n Europe and in Britain


.
Stop selling inflatable boats to the Middle East or African Countries. Definitely don't build any tunnels. Also really high Walls Or Fences seem to work quite well. And I do mean really High !That's like really really really High oh and wide as well !I've also heard Boris has a couple of water canon sitting around not doing much maybe they could lend them to the Greeks, as they are skint and jet them back across quickly !

But of course this isn't you saying they don't deserve asylum!


all countries which are culturally more similar to them than Europe.

Many refugees are in the countries of which you speak Turkey is struggling as we have already discussed several times, but actually this maybe the crux of the matter. You say They DO deserve asylum... But only in "culturally similar" countries. Britain shouldn't take them cos they are different - is that it? Not the same as us. How EXACTLY are they not the same as us, colour? Religion? Culture? Do they wear different clothes? Eat different food?

You know what BT that dead little boy yesterday didn't look much different than my little boy - he had 2 legs, 2 arms and he wore little shoes and shorts - you know the difference?

He was dead!

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 08:16
From what I have read, it appears to me that it is once the people are in Europe, be it Greece, Calais, wherever it is they land, those will be the ones Britain and other countries will take. As I said though, the majority are dying on the way there. I am no expert, but I highly doubt a European presence would be allowed in Syria or Lybia in order to transport refugees out of those countries.

This morning on BBC Breakfast -

"David Cameron is expected to announce plans later to increase the number of refugees being allowed into the UK.

The extra refugees are expected to come from UN camps bordering Syria, and not from among people already in Europe."

So for all of you that think this is some sort of victory and it was people power that has persuaded Cameron to act, you have probably just condemned thousands more to die, because they will not stop coming and trying to gain entry to Europe anyway they can, be it on a boat not fit for purpose or in the back of a lorry. They will continue to pay the people smugglers every single penny they have, because they have been promised the world, well Britain anyway. So what has this achieved, absolutely nothing, Calais will remain the same, Hungary is still being bombarded - nothing has or will change.

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 08:21
[/URL]

And another describing US intelligence hearing plans to smuggle ISIS into Europe using refugees as a Trojan horse

[URL]http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-terrorists-disguised-refugees-trojan-horse-plot-against-europe-1468701 (http://www.politico.eu/article/migration-fake-syrian-passports-asylum-request-frontex/)


And this is what I was trying to explain earlier in this thread. This is a real fear for people here. Anybody that has watched the news in recent months can see what these "people" are capable of, they will stop at nothing.

squidge
04-Sep-15, 08:22
It's a start and that's more than we had yesterday! The tide is starting to turn and that's better than yesterday.

Taking people from the camps actually offers them a safe route to asylum and might encourage more people not to travel, because, as I am sure you have been paying attention, I have been saying all along that the lack of safe routes forces people to take the routes they have been taking. It won't make any difference if he takes 25 though so we will wait and see what he thinks he can get away with whilst continuing to lobby for better

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 08:40
I don't know about anybody else on here, but if it was me that had pushed / campaigned for more refugees to be allowed into Britain, and the deaths in the thousands continued, because they will, then I would feel a bit uneasy about that. If they are only taking x amount from the camps, then anybody would be very naive to think that the rest of them will just give up and go home. It's fine though, as long as Britain is taking x amount of refugees, then the rest of the refugees who have already landed in Europe can rot. Britain has done its bit.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 08:43
If you recall Squidge I've said previously I've no problem with asylum but not permanent residence you seem to be unable to separate the two issues.

As it is asylum is relatively simple once you've escaped the oppressive regime you're fleeing.

You once again go down your painting every thing in black and white scenarios the very thing you accuse me of all the time.
You mumble when it comes to dealing with the whole issue and keep claiming that the tide is turning and some great moral victory has been won.
Here's the reality a petition online doesn't really prove much the vast majority of people haven't signed it and like myself a very large percentage remain cynical as to the origins of these people.
You seem to be able to sing one tune and that's the one that fits your agenda.
You fail to deal with the real issue and as usual provide a very thin sticking plaster that will keep falling off and need replacing.
As I happens cultural identity is very important to a very high percentage of people ( amazes me I even have to mention this to an ardent supporter of independence ) religious differences are a large part of why these people are fleeing why would you place people of a religion largely intolerant of western lifestyles into Europe when there are countries if infinitely more suitable for them than anywhere in Europe.
Once again you try focussing one the one little boy I keep asking you what about everyone else dying you seem unable or unwilling to talk about them as well, just keep focussing on one person and try a huge guilt trip on everyone.

Your politics are cynical and venal they ultimately fail to deal with the big issues and focus on what's populist I can only assume you view yourself as some kind of Mother Theresa figure who by handing out a few tit bits from your already groaning table of western comforts salves their conscience.

Why instead of constantly lecturing us all on what we should be doing actually go get a taste of the sharp end.
Oh wait you'll find some flimsy excuse not to and then waffle as usual.
The reality is all you do is talk more hot air than comes from a Buffaloes backside after eating it's way through a bean field.
Lets hear how you intend to lobby Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the other very rich Middle eastern counties to help. How about you Lobby Russia or China to take more. Oh you won't because they wouldn't listen to you and you can't be bothered. As I've said before all you do is latch on to populist agendas to salve your conscience.

davth
04-Sep-15, 08:45
You have to applaud the PM for his decision yesterday.I have no qualm with us accepting folk from who are still stranded in warzones.Also it means that the illegal people traffickers have not succeeded in their promises to the syrians.I think there will be a better chance of the folk in Syria still having their identities to confirm that they are who they say they are also.Go on squidge congratulate the government, I dare you😀

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 08:48
It's a start and that's more than we had yesterday! The tide is starting to turn and that's better than yesterday.Taking people from the camps actually offers them a safe route to asylum and might encourage more people not to travel, because, as I am sure you have been paying attention, I have been saying all along that the lack of safe routes forces people to take the routes they have been taking. It won't make any difference if he takes 25 though so we will wait and see what he thinks he can get away with whilst continuing to lobby for betterBut you haven't been saying that all along you've said time and again they have no option but to get in boats. Come on we don't all have the memories of goldfish. You're changing your story as people provide more and more proof you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 09:09
What about the issues in Hungary they've made the journey they've been offered safe refuge in a camp but are now causing civil unrest because they will only accept Germany. That's some very picky refugees with very distinct agendas not as we'd be led to believe people fleeing for their lives.

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 09:14
What about the issues in Hungary they've made the journey they've been offered safe refuge in a camp but are now causing civil unrest because they will only accept Germany. That's some very picky refugees with very distinct agendas not as we'd be led to believe people fleeing for their lives.

They are also refusing water and food.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 09:18
Here's another story showing the hidden agenda behind some of the people crossing borders.


http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/09/01/islamic-state-terrorists-caught-crossing-into-europe-posing-as-refugees/

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 09:27
Here's another story showing the hidden agenda behind some of the people crossing borders.


http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/09/01/islamic-state-terrorists-caught-crossing-into-europe-posing-as-refugees/

Why is that not worrying people ? Why is this real threat just being swept under the carpet ?

squidge
04-Sep-15, 09:27
But you haven't been saying that all along you've said time and again they have no option but to get in boats. Come on we don't all have the memories of goldfish. You're changing your story as people provide more and more proof you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Setting up safe routes for refugees is about suspending visa requirements and assessing people properly on arrival in the EU and sharing out the burden of supporting these desperate people.The failure of Britain and the EU to act on this crisis makes everything worse for everyone. Cpt linked to the lorry driver so let's talk about him for a moment. If the EU set up proper reception areas for refugees, if all EU countries worked together to decide in a compassionate and humane way how to process these people then they would be allocated to various countries, supported properly when they arrived and would be less likely to end up desperate at places like Calais. If there were reuniting family programmes where someone turning up in a boat, had relatives or friends in Britain then they could be sent to Britain. Same with Germany or France. Britain currently has no such programmes for refugees. This means that people end up at Calais, desperate to get across the channel to be with people who are already here and cannot get here by legal means. So the poor lorry driver bears the brunt of the failure of Britain and the rest of the EU to address this crisis.It appears the memory of a goldfish us exactly what you have. I have been talking about the importance of safe routes in preventing these deaths since we started. DO try to keep up

squidge
04-Sep-15, 09:48
.As I happens cultural identity is very important to a very high percentage of people ( amazes me I even have to mention this to an ardent supporter of independence ) religious differences are a large part of why these people are fleeing why would you place people of a religion largely intolerant of western lifestyles into Europe when there are countries if infinitely more suitable for them than anywhere in Europe. ..

Once again you mis label the desire for political self determination as a cultural issue but hey ho.

"More suitable" than Europe because why? Because they are what? Muslims? This sentence is the very basis of your arguments isn't it BT. You don't want them in Europe, in Britain because they are Muslims. You know, Eyecarntspell has posted here for years. He has never dressed his posts up as anything other than the racist claptrap they are. You, however, put your posts in fancy clothes and call it "reality" when it's just another pile of racist poo.

It appears You think that these people these people who should be in countries "more suitable" to their religion are not "suitable" for Britain. That somehow Muslims are so different that we should not allow them asylum here in our nice Britain, our nice Europe.

Yuk just yuk. I'm off to do something practical.

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 10:45
Once again you mis label the desire for political self determination as a cultural issue but hey ho.

"More suitable" than Europe because why? Because they are what? Muslims? This sentence is the very basis of your arguments isn't it BT. You don't want them in Europe, in Britain because they are Muslims. You know, Eyecarntspell has posted here for years. He has never dressed his posts up as anything other than the racist claptrap they are. You, however, put your posts in fancy clothes and call it "reality" when it's just another pile of racist poo.

It appears You think that these people these people who should be in countries "more suitable" to their religion are not "suitable" for Britain. That somehow Muslims are so different that we should not allow them asylum here in our nice Britain, our nice Europe.

Yuk just yuk. I'm off to do something practical.

Ok Squidge why are the oil rich middle east states doing nothing ? Explain that one

squidge
04-Sep-15, 12:22
I can't Rob!

I would like to think that the UK government and the UN are pressing them hard but as you know I'm sure, they often seem to be unwilling to challenge these states on their human rights records.

Their inaction however, should not be an excuse for us to refuse to act though.

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 12:35
I can't Rob!

I would like to think that the UK government and the UN are pressing them hard but as you know I'm sure, they often seem to be unwilling to challenge these states on their human rights records.

Their inaction however, should not be an excuse for us to refuse to act though.

Whats now recognised as being urgently needed is an agreed EU strategy, in fact a UN / Global strategy, encompassing non EU states ( ie the US etc ) and yes your right, these oil rich middle east states arent at all interested and I woudnt hold your breath that they are being pressed, however the "burden" must be shared out surely, as thats best for all. But time is of the essence and this situation isnt going to evaporate overnight so there is a pressing need for an agreed framework % approach. Totally agree that middle east inaction is not an excuse to do nothing but I disagree with the use of the word us..........yes of course we coud do more, but this situation has involved millions of displaced people and a hell of a lot more will also be fleeing Syria, hence the need for a serious pan EU / Global approach where the participating countries agree approaches.

squidge
04-Sep-15, 12:40
I have been saying since these threads started that Britain needs to work on a coordinated way with the international community and the EU. I keep saying it over and over again. I'm glad to know you are too

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 12:52
I have been saying since these threads started that Britain needs to work on a coordinated way with the international community and the EU. I keep saying it over and over again. I'm glad to know you are too

I always held this view

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 12:57
The UK is to provide resettlement to "thousands" more Syrian refugees in response to the worsening humanitarian crisis, David Cameron has announced.


He said the extra refugees would come from UN camps bordering Syria, and not from among people already in Europe.

Nothing has changed. You will still see pictures daily of migrants, refugees, however you wish to refer to them, in camps in Calais, all over the place in Hungary, in Greece, continue to see boats capsizing, people dying and so on. Cameron is not touching the people already in Europe, so the problems still exist and will continue to do so.

I probably should add, "refugees" if indeed they are, wash up on beaches with the clothes they stand in. They do not have mobile phones to access the internet to see what David Cameron is doing. I will say this again for anybody that is purposely missing the point. All the refugees in Europe now, today, this minute are not going to be helped.

squidge
04-Sep-15, 12:57
Yeah me too Rob :)

And CPT

Again, by taking refugees from the camps they will be opening up safe routes to Europe and Britain which will hopefully stem the tide of those who feel they can't get here any other way.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 13:40
It appears the memory of a goldfish us exactly what you have. I have been talking about the importance of safe routes in preventing these deaths since we started. DO try to keep upNo Squidge you quite clearly stated earlier in the thread that they have no option but to use boats. Stop trying to squirm out of your constantly changing position.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 13:41
I have been saying since these threads started that Britain needs to work on a coordinated way with the international community and the EU. I keep saying it over and over again. I'm glad to know you are tooOnce again a misrepresentation you started of saying we should do more with no mention of coordinated international efforts more blurring the facts of what you've said.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 13:46
Once again you mis label the desire for political self determination as a cultural issue but hey ho. "More suitable" than Europe because why? Because they are what? Muslims? This sentence is the very basis of your arguments isn't it BT. You don't want them in Europe, in Britain because they are Muslims. You know, Eyecarntspell has posted here for years. He has never dressed his posts up as anything other than the racist claptrap they are. You, however, put your posts in fancy clothes and call it "reality" when it's just another pile of racist poo. It appears You think that these people these people who should be in countries "more suitable" to their religion are not "suitable" for Britain. That somehow Muslims are so different that we should not allow them asylum here in our nice Britain, our nice Europe.Yuk just yuk. I'm off to do something practical.Aye in this one you accuse me of racism when I mention culture and religion a typical example of liberal left wing smear. It's totally realistic to state the Syrians have more culturally in common with other Middle Eastern countries than with Europe you really must stop these silly attempts to try and smear anyone with an opposing view. The facts are you're racing to try and catch up with your obviously very limited knowledge on the Middle East and reasons behind the conflicts. Religious and tribal tensions which are endemic across the region to attempt to label anyone who mentions these issues as a racist shows how blinkered and hate filled you are for people with views that differ from yours. It's not as though your tactics are new or original just the same old liberal clap trap in a febrile attempt to close down discussion.

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 13:48
Once again a misrepresentation you started of saying we should do more with no mention of coordinated international efforts more blurring the facts of what you've said.

Sadly, BetterTogether, we are banging our heads against a brick wall, people are twisting things to suit their own agenda on here.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 13:52
Now let's deal with a few realities.

There are 4 million Syrians in refugee camps around the region.

Those numbers do not include those who are attempting to cross the Mediterranean using people traffickers ( a multi billion pound business )

Those of you sitting here feeling morally superior because you're prepared to let some thousands in to the country show your total ignorance of the situation.

A few thousand even a few tens of thousands will make not a jot of difference.

We are talking about Millions.

I repeat that Millions, of people on the move.

Not only Syrians but Libyans Eritreans, Nigerians, Bangladeshis to name but a few of the countries of origin.

So now tell me how do we deal with these mind boggling numbers and don't say take a few thousand in as that really is just a sticking plaster when major surgery is required.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 13:57
Sadly, BetterTogether, we are banging our heads against a brick wall, people are twisting things to suit their own agenda on here.

Not people one persons whose argument changes like the wind but constantly shows how completely limited her knowledge on the situation is.

Thousand it's enough to make me laugh if it wasn't so truly misguided on the scale of the problem.

The total amount of people sitting already in refugee camps is getting close to what the entire population of Scotland

Today we have Nicola Sturgeon saying Scotland will do whatever it takes but she can say this easily as she is fully aware she doesn't have any powers when it comes to immigration just lots of hot air to blow about.

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 14:01
Now let's deal with a few realities.

There are 4 million Syrians in refugee camps around the region.

Those numbers do not include those who are attempting to cross the Mediterranean using people traffickers ( a multi billion pound business )

Those of you sitting here feeling morally superior because you're prepared to let some thousands in to the country show your total ignorance of the situation.

A few thousand even a few tens of thousands will make not a jot of difference.

We are talking about Millions.

I repeat that Millions, of people on the move.

Not only Syrians but Libyans Eritreans, Nigerians, Bangladeshis to name but a few of the countries of origin.

So now tell me how do we deal with these mind boggling numbers and don't say take a few thousand in as that really is just a sticking plaster when major surgery is required.

100% agreed, that is why I made the point earlier for a UN / Globally agreed strategy.................ie " Whats now recognised as being urgently needed is an agreed EU strategy, in fact a UN / Global strategy, encompassing non EU states ( ie the US etc ) and these oil rich middle east states arent at all interested however the "burden" must be shared out surely, as thats best for all. But time is of the essence and this situation isnt going to evaporate overnight so there is a pressing need for an agreed framework % approach. Totally agree that middle east inaction is not an excuse to do nothing but I disagree with the use of the word us..........yes of course we could do more, but this situation has involved millions of displaced people and a hell of a lot more will also be fleeing Syria, hence the need for a serious pan EU / Global approach where the participating countries agree approaches" cannot see how this situation can be dealt with in any meaningful seri0us way unless there is a global / UN "intervention"....as you say taking in a few thousand / tens of thousands isnt going to make any difference to what is a massive humanatarian crisis

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 14:31
The problem is anything going through the UN will be boycotted by Russia and China who side with The Syria Assad regime and Iran.
With Iran pumping in some $20 billion to prop up the Assad regime and supplying fighters to assist it's gets even more complicated .
Iran has purchased large amounts of real estate and is heavily invested in Syrian business now, so it exerts its grip over the Assad regime subtly but it means the problem is less clear than mud.
With the increased presence of Iran that increases the Hezbollah in the area and then you have Israel getting twitchy over the Golan heights again.
Eygpt's political upheaval has left the country a mess and who knows which way that will go.
Then we have The Saudis whilst the appear benign it's no secret they fund extremism in the region so they sit quietly on the sidelines pumping billions into conflicts which suit their religious agenda.
Add to the mix the Turkish/ Kurdish problem which is starting to reassert itself again it becomes even more ridiculously complicated.
I haven't even touched on the tribal elements or some of the more confusing religious conflicts going on all mixed in to this nightmarish cocktail.
Then we have Isis another now major player funded by outside influences who really does control them follow the money is usually the way to go and then we come to more unsavoury friends.
The whole issue spreads across the entire Middle East into North Africa and parts of the Indian Sub Continet.
Finding any kind of realistic solution to any one of the problems many of which go back centuries is no easy matter.
To sum it up in one word.
Fubar !

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 14:40
Just out of interest, why is it only Europe they are trying to get to (apart from the distance) why not America, Russia or even Australia ?

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 14:46
They view Europe especially Germany and the UK as rich countries which will give them better lives quite simple, not to many restrictions not to many questions asked.

Australia won't take them unless they have necessary skills they Australians want.

The U.S.A isn't overly keen on taking Muslim refugees since 9/11

Russia isn't really a country many people want to live in except the Russians

Some do to to China but they are issued 1 or 5 yr work visas no more.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 14:59
This gives those unfamiliar with the bigger problem an idea of what's going on it the region.


http://mondediplo.com/maps/IMG/pdf/LMDnov07_Middle_East-2.pdf

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 15:14
It does make you wonder why nobody on here has complained about those countries I mentioned "not doing their bit" !

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 15:25
The problem is anything going through the UN will be boycotted by Russia and China who side with The Syria Assad regime and Iran.
With Iran pumping in some $20 billion to prop up the Assad regime and supplying fighters to assist it's gets even more complicated .
Iran has purchased large amounts of real estate and is heavily invested in Syrian business now, so it exerts its grip over the Assad regime subtly but it means the problem is less clear than mud.
With the increased presence of Iran that increases the Hezbollah in the area and then you have Israel getting twitchy over the Golan heights again.
Eygpt's political upheaval has left the country a mess and who knows which way that will go.
Then we have The Saudis whilst the appear benign it's no secret they fund extremism in the region so they sit quietly on the sidelines pumping billions into conflicts which suit their religious agenda.
Add to the mix the Turkish/ Kurdish problem which is starting to reassert itself again it becomes even more ridiculously complicated.
I haven't even touched on the tribal elements or some of the more confusing religious conflicts going on all mixed in to this nightmarish cocktail.
Then we have Isis another now major player funded by outside influences who really does control them follow the money is usually the way to go and then we come to more unsavoury friends.
The whole issue spreads across the entire Middle East into North Africa and parts of the Indian Sub Continet.
Finding any kind of realistic solution to any one of the problems many of which go back centuries is no easy matter.
To sum it up in one word.
Fubar !

Very well summed up, your totally clued up on the middle east geo politics...what a damn mess, and with millions involved, totally agree there is no easy answer here and by focusing on a short term band aid approach it diverts attention away from the geo political cocktail brewing away....scary stuff ....still say the free world has to act though....and this mess puts the yes / no scotland stuff in persepectve doesnt it ?

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 15:28
It does make you wonder why nobody on here has complained about those countries I mentioned "not doing their bit" !

Ive raised the issue of a UN / global approach and specifically mentioned the US...not Russia / China. I also said that the oil rich middle east states should particpate but now know courtesy of BTG ( thanks ! ) that the whole region is one hell of a mess so thats of the cards.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 15:42
Ahh but if Europe or the U.S. do step foot into the region again everything will turn against them.

That's the way it works over there non of them are trustworthy as an allie.

They've been fighting each other for millennia now and nothing is going to change that.

If you move them and resettle them elsewhere they just take their issues with them.

All the way down to petty family squabbles, whether it's tribal religious, family or state they generally have some axe to grind with someone in the region and have absolutely no problem reaching back through history to exert the legitimacy of those grievances.
Very similar to some up here with the issues now affecting Scotland once that genie is out of the bottle it's very hard to put back.
Intelligent people after power frequently stoke up the fires so those less able can set the world ablaze on their behalf.

Once you understand Middle Eastern politics you understand why strong oppressive leaders are frequently seen as good leaders, the people love to hate them as they ruthlessly keep a lid on all the side issues bubbling up.

squidge
04-Sep-15, 15:49
No Squidge you quite clearly stated earlier in the thread that they have no option but to use boats. Stop trying to squirm out of your constantly changing position.

Posted on 30/8/2015


Setting up safe routes for refugees is about suspending visa requirements and assessing people properly on arrival in the EU and sharing out the burden of supporting these desperate people.The failure of Britain and the EU to act on this crisis makes everything worse for everyone. Cpt linked to the lorry driver so let's talk about him for a moment. If the EU set up proper reception areas for refugees, if all EU countries worked together to decide in a compassionate and humane way how to process these people then they would be allocated to various countries, supported properly when they arrived and would be less likely to end up desperate at places like Calais. If there were reuniting family programmes where someone turning up in a boat, had relatives or friends in Britain then they could be sent to Britain. Same with Germany or France. Britain currently has no such programmes for refugees. This means that people end up at Calais, desperate to get across the channel to be with people who are already here and cannot get here by legal means. So the poor lorry driver bears the brunt of the failure of Britain and the rest of the EU to address this crisis.

Sigh

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 15:52
Ive raised the issue of a UN / global approach and specifically mentioned the US...not Russia / China. I also said that the oil rich middle east states should particpate but now know courtesy of BTG ( thanks ! ) that the whole region is one hell of a mess so thats of the cards.

I know you did Rob, I wasn't meaning you, honestly. It really is a mess over there especially looking at the map BetterTogether posted on here. Gone are the days when a nuclear strike was the only thing we had to worry about.

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 15:56
I know you did Rob, I wasn't meaning you, honestly. It really is a mess over there especially looking at the map BetterTogether posted on here. Gone are the days when a nuclear strike was the only thing we had to worry about.

Its ok, I thought that you may have missed my post....the more you get into it the more you realise what a tinder box the middle east is, BTG is our tutor....he seriously knows his stuff

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 16:01
I shall ignore Squidge and her know it all knows nothing sighs, it's perfectly apparent she is pretty clueless about the whole situation and just takes whatever the Guardian and BBC spout out at face value with no more deep thought about the long term consequences to her actions than a child playing with its latest toy soon to be discarded for the next model.

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 16:02
Its ok, I thought that you may have missed my post....the more you get into it the more you realise what a tinder box the middle east is, BTG is our tutor....he seriously knows his stuff

He certainly does, I think you need a degree to understand the politics, the different religions, tribes and so on. My head spins when I try to understand it all, or even make sense of it.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 16:08
Its ok, I thought that you may have missed my post....the more you get into it the more you realise what a tinder box the middle east is, BTG is our tutor....he seriously knows his stuff

I'm not a tutor Rob but to understand the problems we are facing with these waves of migrants heading toward Europe you must understand the situations that are driving them toward our shores.

It's far to simplistic to say give them asylum let them in.

We are dealing with figures in excess of 10 Million people in total that's the equivalent to roughly one sixth the UK population or over double the population of Scotland.

Why do some people insist we should give asylum to people from Syria and not other equally war torn countries in the region, probably because they haven't got much of a clue about the other conflicts going on.

Why discriminate between one group in favour of another.

It seems a sad picture galvanises keyboard warriors who quickly jump over the subject as though they are experts on middle eastern affairs but there are far more educated people dealing day in day out with the problems who are still non the wiser and frequently left flabbergasted by some of the totally irrational behaviour that occurs during negotiations.

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 16:42
I'm not a tutor Rob but to understand the problems we are facing with these waves of migrants heading toward Europe you must understand the situations that are driving them toward our shores.

It's far to simplistic to say give them asylum let them in.

We are dealing with figures in excess of 10 Million people in total that's the equivalent to roughly one sixth the UK population or over double the population of Scotland.

Why do some people insist we should give asylum to people from Syria and not other equally war torn countries in the region, probably because they haven't got much of a clue about the other conflicts going on.

Why discriminate between one group in favour of another.

It seems a sad picture galvanises keyboard warriors who quickly jump over the subject as though they are experts on middle eastern affairs but there are far more educated people dealing day in day out with the problems who are still non the wiser and frequently left flabbergasted by some of the totally irrational behaviour that occurs during negotiations.

BTG I meant tutor as a compliment, I work in oil these days and we have people in the middle east, and was aware to some degree of the issues, but I didnt have that great a handle on the strategic picture, you have ( or rather another way of putting it from a cynics viewpoint, you expose my shortcommings ) given the mellee in middle east and mass humanatarian issues we have to have an agreed UN strategic approach its either that or walk away, and we cant do that we are civilised. Yes its a hell of a complicated mess but things will get worse before they will get better.

BetterTogether
04-Sep-15, 16:54
Here's something that may interest you Rob or any others following the thread with a more open mind, Mr Putins views on the situation.


http://www.rt.com/news/314318-putin-vladivostok-eu-migrants/


After being denounced as a racist for a previous post I found this particularly of interest.

According to the Russian president, the main flaw of Western foreign policy is the imposition of their own standards worldwide without taking into account the historical, religious, national and cultural characteristics of particular regions.

cptdodger
04-Sep-15, 18:58
Just seen this on the news. On the one hand David Cameron has announced a further £100m in humanitarian aid, on the other - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34153136

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 19:08
Here's something that may interest you Rob or any others following the thread with a more open mind, Mr Putins views on the situation.


http://www.rt.com/news/314318-putin-vladivostok-eu-migrants/


After being denounced as a racist for a previous post I found this particularly of interest.

According to the Russian president, the main flaw of Western foreign policy is the imposition of their own standards worldwide without taking into account the historical, religious, national and cultural characteristics of particular regions.

Putin is 100% correct

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 11:32
On the British Media we have stories of refugees not being given food and water. When you go to foreign media sources you get to see the images that don't suit the media in this countries agenda

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3eSbpETf8


Contrary to popular media outlets coverage I think it's fair to say the German population isn't entirely onside with Frau Merkel.

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 16:07
Meanwhile back in the not so clean idealistic world where everyone is happy smiley loving and caring we have this chap.


Last year Isis fighter.


This year asylum seeker .


Hands up those prepared to share your house with him please.

squidge
05-Sep-15, 16:30
Information I came across today which isn't a pile of racist poo. Please be aware that this is not my words of my post but I thought it was worth sharing.

Hey everyone...

There are false claims that Muslim countries do nothing for refugees, listing Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, United Arab Emirates and Bahrain as examples. Instead of swallowing this garbage because it makes you feel better - let's take each of these countries in turn and actually do some research, backed up by credible sources rather than by racist made-up crap inside your head.

1) Saudi Arabia

Historically Saudi Arabia has given astronomical sums of money for humanitarian aid - including to help refugees. Consider that back in 2008 at the height of the global financial crisis their total humanitarian assistance totalled $624M - the fifth largest government donor in the world. (http://www.globalhumanitarianassistance.org/countryprofile/saudi-arabia).

Official Development Assistance (ODA) is a global metric used to measure the aid given by various countries... SA's ODA as a share of national income is larger than all countries, including the UK, with the exception of Luxembourg, Sweden and Norway. (https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://devinit.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Investments-to-End-Poverty-Chapter-9-Saudi-Arabia.pdf)2)

Kuwait

Back in 2014 the Kuwait Red Crescent Society addressed the situation of Syria’s refugees in Lebanon and Jordan, as well as their own ability to cope with the influx of displaced populations. They launched the "Ragheef" campaign which offered bread for a total of 7,000 Syrian refugees in various parts of Jordan. (http://mosaicsyria.org/en/blog/item/457-kuwait-red-crescent-societyl-aunches-new-bread-campaign-for-syrian-refugees-in-jordan)3)

Qatar

Back in 2013, the Qatar Red Crescent Society established a psychological centre for Syrian refugees in Jordan. Their Chairman said that aid to refugees should be progressive and forward thinking, going beyond food and shelter and extend to "include productive social, educational and entertainment activities that would help spread hope, eliminate anxiety and help bring back the smiles on the faces of children and their mothers.
It is very important to keep the youth engaged in creative and meaningful activities that would keep them optimistic and positive about the future" (http://www.ifrc.org/fr/nouvelles/nouvelles/middle-east-and-north-africa/qatar/qatar-red-crescent-society-establishes-psychological-services-center-for-syrian-refugees-61258/)
4)

United Arab Emirates

The UAE hosts the 'Global Logistics Service' which is the largest distribution centre for humanitarian aid on the planet. It is supported by all UAE countries including the government of Dubai - this has helped "deliver assistance in some of the worst humanitarian crises of the past decade, including the 2004 tsunami in Southeast Asia, drought in the Horn of Africa, civil unrest in Afghanistan and Darfur, and the 2010 earthquake in Haiti. Organizations working in the city have also been heavily engaged in the emergency responses to Syria and the Philippines" (http://www.ifrc.org/fr/nouvelles/nouvelles/middle-east-and-north-africa/united-arab-emirates/delivering-relief-from-the-worlds-largest-humanitarian-hub-in-dubai-65303/)
5)

Bahrain

As far back as 2012 Bahrain had already opened and funded a school for Syrian refugee children in the Zaatari refugee camp in Jordan - capable of taking in around 4000 refugees (around 10% of the 42000 refugees in the camp at that time) (http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/11/25/251765.html). The Bahraini government, itself in crisis, has also been working to naturalise over 5000 Syrian refugees from the Zaatari camp - easily comparable to the number of refugees the UK is taking in, despite having a much, much higher population density than us (1626 people per sq km compared with us at 255.6 people per sq km). (http://www.bahrainobserver.com/en/page/114/Bahrain++Naturalise+5000+Syrians+Refugees+.html)

Don't even get me started on the humanitarian assistance and refugee aid provided by other Muslim majority countries like: Tunisia, Iran, Yemen, Jordan, Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt, Indonesia, Malaysia and, of course, Lebanon which on its own has taken in over half a MILLION refugees.

There is zero excuse for this kind of hateful ignorance from people who can't be bothered to educate themselves on what the world is really like. MOREOVER... even IF it was true that these countries did nothing to help refugees, how does that in any way make it okay for you not to do so? Or are you just a sheep who conforms to the behavior of others no matter how callous and inhumane it is. If you have a problem with other how other countries handle humanitarian affairs - set an example rather than using them as an excuse to do nothing.

See, I'm not sure about why you would want to flee from one country ruled by a despotic dictator to another. There are serious issues with human rights in many rich Arab States. It's worth remembering that Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, are all taking many refugees. The narrative that these countries are doing nothing is not correct. They are not doing enough and I saw yesterday that the UN and others are putting lots of diplomatic pressure on these countries.

I was also delighted to see the front of the groat teaterday. It's good to know that this is not the only window people are looking at Caithness through :)

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 16:36
Amount of refugees taken in by Saudi Arabia 0 Qatar 0

Same old Squidge post call anyone who raises concerns a racist shame on you !

And then provide a plethora of broken links

The quality of your post is dubious as well.

One post

Bahrain Observer- An intelligence firm said that the Bahraini government is “working to naturalise more than 5,000 Sunni Syrian refugees living in the Zaatari refugee camp in Jordan
Citing a source it did not identify, the firm said that “the government has even established a cultural centrer at the camp to acquaint the refugees with Bahraini culture.”
Bahrain has dramatic economic problem at home since 2011 when the popular uprising caused to a serious crisis , meanwhile is setting up a mobile school complex to help 4,000 Syrian refugee children with their education. Some Bahrani students and teachers are still in jjail and many has been injured during the peaceful protests demanding justice and equal civil right.
The complex features four schools that will each accommodate 1,000 students who will be able to continue their studies in the new academic year in the Zaatari Camp in Jordan.
The setting up of the complex was ordered by Bahrain’s King Hamad Bin Eisa Al Khalifa as a gesture to help Syrian refugees.
King Hamad said that he had ordered the Royal Charity Foundation to take the necessary measures to set up the complex as part of Bahrain’s commitment to assist the Syrian people to fulfil their aspirations.
“We want our sons and daughters among the Syrian refugees to continue their studies on time with the new academic year,” King Hamad said. “This is a religious and humanitarian duty.”
Opposition claims about mass naturalisation of foreigners by the state to alter the country’s demographics have been epeatedly rejected but a secret reporot which was leakede by a former british security adviser of Al-khalifa ,Salah Al-bandar in 2006 overtured a systematic demographic engineering in the country run by the royal family members.
Under Bahrain’s 1963 Citizenship Law, an Arab who has lived in Bahrain for 15 years and a non-Arab who has been in the country for 25 years may apply for citizenship.


So now we are led to trust that intelligence sources and unidentified firms are credible from a country with a bad human rights record


Does take the biscuit when edits are done after the fact to make a post not seem quite as bad as it really is..oh dear !

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 17:04
Here's a Syrian refugee map UNHCR probably a more credible source than dear Squidges please note no refugees in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait or UAE so official sources show a very different picture to that which Squidge is trying to paint.

cptdodger
05-Sep-15, 17:15
Meanwhile back in the not so clean idealistic world where everyone is happy smiley loving and caring we have this chap.


Last year Isis fighter.


This year asylum seeker .


Hands up those prepared to share your house with him please.

And could somebody tell me please what steps the authorities are taking to stop these terrorists infiltrating our country? Unfortunately these x amount of "refugees" Britain is taking, do not come labelled, they do not have terrorist tattooed across their forehead, so again, what steps are being taken to keep them out?

And, no BetterTogether, I certainly would not share a house with him. It will get to the stage if nobody answers the question above, I will personally move my daughter and grandson up here with me, I don't care how old she is. These people pose a viable threat, which is being conveniently ignored by those sitting in their ivory towers.

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 17:21
For those of you who want statistics on international aid these are probably better than those supplied at least they are from a credible source.
The UN OCHA



https://docs.unocha.org/sites/dms/Documents/WHDT_2013%20WEB.pdf

squidge
05-Sep-15, 17:23
This is my last word to you Better Together. I never called YOU a racist I don't know you well, I don't know if YOU are a racist or not. But your post and your comments that people from Syria should go to countries that are "more suitable" for them are indeed racist posts and I think as I accurately described " racist poo".

Rob Murray and cpt might be happy to engage with you but I will post stuff that I want to post and you can take your racist poo and shove it somewhere "more suitable".

I am sure you are a lovely person really and that lots and lots of people love you and if you were in need then lots of lovely people would come to your aid and I am sure that I would be one of them but you know, your posts often make me feel like I need a shower as they spit venom and nastiness from every syllable. You NEVER Ever ever say anything nice - I looked and looked for something warm and kind and Gentle and supportive and I couldn't find it. I'm beginning to think you are maybe indulging in what my dad would call "kid-ology". Whatever it is, I'm done with you. My life is too full for the bitterness, meanness and racism in your posts.

I'm sorry for you and I'm sticking you on ignore and continuing to smile at yesterday's paper and the amount of aid that I have in my barn from some of the hundreds and hundreds (1500+) of people that We have seen, met, spoke to this week that are not like your posts. There are armies of folk all over the country who don't think like your posts suggest they should. It's heart warming, it's kind and it's wonderful.

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 17:28
And could somebody tell me please what steps the authorities are taking to stop these terrorists infiltrating our country? Unfortunately these x amount of "refugees" Britain is taking, do not come labelled, they do not have terrorist tattooed across their forehead, so again, what steps are being taken to keep them out?And, no BetterTogether, I certainly would not share a house with him. It will get to the stage if nobody answers the question above, I will personally move my daughter and grandson up here with me, I don't care how old she is. These people pose a viable threat, which is being conveniently ignored by those sitting in their ivory towers.


The reality of the situation is that very few checks can be done if they have destroyed or have no papers. Remember that they are supposed to be coming from war torn countries so it's virtually impossible to verify their stories.

But as an interesting side note to this whole story is the dead child who made headlines it now just coming out that his parents has been living in Turkey for the past three years.

That doesn't mean they where fleeing for their lives from an oppressive regime, his sister had been sending him Money to try get to Canada and help pay for his costs in Turkey.

So the story isn't as first portrayed.

It's the story of people trying to enter Europe illegally for a better life not of people fleeing for their lives.

How much shame should those misrepresenting and trying to make political capital out of a tragic situation be feeling now.

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 17:35
This is my last word to you Better Together. I never called YOU a racist I don't know you well, I don't know if YOU are a racist or not. But your post and your comments that people from Syria should go to countries that are "more suitable" for them are indeed racist posts and I think as I accurately described " racist poo". Rob Murray and cpt might be happy to engage with you but I will post stuff that I want to post and you can take your racist poo and shove it somewhere "more suitable". I am sure you are a lovely person really and that lots and lots of people love you and if you were in need then lots of lovely people would come to your aid and I am sure that I would be one of them but you know, your posts often make me feel like I need a shower as they spit venom and nastiness from every syllable. You NEVER Ever ever say anything nice - I looked and looked for something warm and kind and Gentle and supportive and I couldn't find it. I'm sorry for you and I'm sticking you on ignore and continuing to smile at yesterday's paper and the amount of aid that I have in my barn from some of the hundreds and hundreds (1500+) of people that We have seen, met, spoke to this week that are not like your posts. There are armies of folk all over the country who don't think like your posts suggest they should. It's heart warming, it's kind and it's wonderful.

Well more twaddle from Squidge who has a Barn so should be easily able to accommodate a few families but I doubt that'll ever happen instead she is more happy to throw around ad lib insults denigrate and be generally condescending to anyone who holds opposing views and breach by her own admission forum rules with apparent impunity from the moderators.

Maybe she should watch the news and see the chaos being created in Calais by well meaning people just shoving goods into the area without any thought of the consequences of their actions

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 17:42
Funnily enough you never hear mention of the 9000 homeless ex servicemen who have served this country I haven't seen the hand of comfort being extended to them or the general hand wringing over how they are being let down so badly by their own society.

cptdodger
05-Sep-15, 17:44
It was actually on Facebook, that day or the day after that the family had been living in Turkey, but I didn't know it was for three years right enough. The impression I got was the family was fleeing Syria and that was their only way out. What I found odd was the father is back in Syria now. So, what on earth was the point. People were quick enough to blame Governments and so on, but the only person to blame for the children's and his wife's death, is him. They were safe in Turkey.

squidge
05-Sep-15, 17:48
Goodness you must have been waiting all day for me to post honey. I hadn't even finished paragraphing and there are about half a dozen replies. It's not my barn darling, I rent a house and it's simply a semi derelict space close by but You can register to offer a room or a space to offer to someone. I can send you the link if you PM me. I know you can't help the negativity so I'll send you my love for a happy life and I'm away. Lots of love xxxx

cptdodger
05-Sep-15, 17:48
And I also take your point about the authorities not being able to check their documents, and that is my point. It is an absolute disgrace to the memories of the thousands upon thousands of people that died defending our country in the World Wars, and conflicts thereafter. We are now allowing terrorists to enter our county under the guise of being refugees, and that is shameful.

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 18:06
And I also take your point about the authorities not being able to check their documents, and that is my point. It is an absolute disgrace to the memories of the thousands upon thousands of people that died defending our country in the World Wars, and conflicts thereafter. We are now allowing terrorists to enter our county under the guise of being refugees, and that is shameful.

I agree that is an absolute disgrace to this country but as always there are those that would rather help anyone else than those right on their doorstep.
I've not fully quite grasped how we as a country with allegedly so many already living in poverty and having to use food banks can suddenly find all it requires to house, feed clothe and generally look after tens of thousands more people.

Maybe things aren't quite as bad as some are making them out to be.

Certainly something doesn't add up.

cptdodger
05-Sep-15, 18:18
I agree that is an absolute disgrace to this country but as always there are those that would rather help anyone else than those right on their doorstep.
I've not fully quite grasped how we as a country with allegedly so many already living in poverty and having to use food banks can suddenly find all it requires to house, feed clothe and generally look after tens of thousands more people.

Maybe things aren't quite as bad as some are making them out to be.

Certainly something doesn't add up.


Exactly, and that was also the point I was making in an earlier post, Cameron is providing another £100m in aid, yet we have this situation here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34153136 which is this -

The Cancer Drugs Fund in England will no longer pay for 16 medicines, used in 23 separate cancer treatments.
It has now more than halved the number of treatments it covers since the beginning of the year after being repeatedly overspent.
The latest drugs being axed (http://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ncdf-list-sept15.pdf) include those for breast, pancreatic and blood cancers.


There is no money to pay for these treatments now, how is that fair for somebody who has paid NI all their working lives to be told, sorry there is no money to treat you, but hey, we are giving billions away to people overseas. Shocking.

cptdodger
05-Sep-15, 18:28
And just out of interest I was reading some comments on Facebook and came across this one -

"Just seen the migrants arriving in Munich to a rapturous welcome by some German people giving sweets and toys to kids. They are being welcomed like returning heroes and some of the poor migrants are filming it on their smartphones and using their phones no doubt texting all their friends saying we are here come and join us its wonderful.I begin to wonder who are the ones suffering here and who has been taken as mugs."

And there are thousands more posts like that one.

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 19:46
This is my last word to you Better Together. I never called YOU a racist I don't know you well, I don't know if YOU are a racist or not. But your post and your comments that people from Syria should go to countries that are "more suitable" for them are indeed racist posts and I think as I accurately described " racist poo".

Rob Murray and cpt might be happy to engage with you but I will post stuff that I want to post and you can take your racist poo and shove it somewhere "more suitable".

I am sure you are a lovely person really and that lots and lots of people love you and if you were in need then lots of lovely people would come to your aid and I am sure that I would be one of them but you know, your posts often make me feel like I need a shower as they spit venom and nastiness from every syllable. You NEVER Ever ever say anything nice - I looked and looked for something warm and kind and Gentle and supportive and I couldn't find it. I'm beginning to think you are maybe indulging in what my dad would call "kid-ology". Whatever it is, I'm done with you. My life is too full for the bitterness, meanness and racism in your posts.

I'm sorry for you and I'm sticking you on ignore and continuing to smile at yesterday's paper and the amount of aid that I have in my barn from some of the hundreds and hundreds (1500+) of people that We have seen, met, spoke to this week that are not like your posts. There are armies of folk all over the country who don't think like your posts suggest they should. It's heart warming, it's kind and it's wonderful.

WHo the hell do you think you are insinuating that BTG is a racist which he is not, you cant stand it when a more informed person shows you up..... and then inferring by association that Im rascist cos Im happy to engage with BTG...who you have accused of rasicm.....you've over stepped the mark pal, get lost, your off the xmas card list unless you apologise to me and cpt and BTG....

squidge
05-Sep-15, 20:01
oh Rob. Wind yer neck in. It's a bit early for me honey, but you sound like you've been at it all day. I simply said it as I see it.

I have no idea if BT is a racist but his posts were and that's not an insinuation.

You all remind me of Rumplestiltsken jumping up and down. I simply said what I see. If you don't like it?

I don't care.

Meanwhile just now - 1 X 10 man tent, 2 x 6 men tents, 10 brand new sleeping bags of one wifie. And a van is away to Newcastle because there are ORGANISED runs for Calais AND elsewhere to properly constituted organisations who can make sure it gets through properly. Pour yourself another Rob.

It's a good day for kindness :) it's a shame some of you can't find a bit. I know you have a good heart Rob - you'll be fine xxxx

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 20:20
So you're on of those like in Rotheram would rather not discuss the cultural differences because in your view that's racism.
Now because others disagree with you they've been at the bottle.

You're really quite a distasteful character all in all but I shall refrain from using such language when it comes to you and hope that the moderators step in and stop your frequent personal attacks on members of the forum.

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 20:23
I always find the English language has a suitable word for most things in this particular case one word fits perfectly.


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bigot

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 20:54
oh Rob. Wind yer neck in. It's a bit early for me honey, but you sound like you've been at it all day. I simply said it as I see it.

I have no idea if BT is a racist but his posts were and that's not an insinuation.

You all remind me of Rumplestiltsken jumping up and down. I simply said what I see. If you don't like it?

I don't care.

Meanwhile just now - 1 X 10 man tent, 2 x 6 men tents, 10 brand new sleeping bags of one wifie. And a van is away to Newcastle because there are ORGANISED runs for Calais AND elsewhere to properly constituted organisations who can make sure it gets through properly. Pour yourself another Rob.

It's a good day for kindness :) it's a shame some of you can't find a bit. I know you have a good heart Rob - you'll be fine xxxx

Pass.............................................. ....

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 20:55
So you're on of those like in Rotheram would rather not discuss the cultural differences because in your view that's racism.
Now because others disagree with you they've been at the bottle.

You're really quite a distasteful character all in all but I shall refrain from using such language when it comes to you and hope that the moderators step in and stop your frequent personal attacks on members of the forum.

Yep 2 bottles of whiskey a day and 24 cans...................

squidge
05-Sep-15, 21:07
We aren't really taking beer or whisky Rob, tents, sleeping bags, warm clothes, trainers or boots, jackets, but no booze thanks :)

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 21:35
We aren't really taking beer or whisky Rob, tents, sleeping bags, warm clothes, trainers or boots, jackets, but no booze thanks :)

Couldnt care less mate.............................................. .......

cptdodger
05-Sep-15, 21:41
WHo the hell do you think you are insinuating that BTG is a racist which he is not, you cant stand it when a more informed person shows you up..... and then inferring by association that Im rascist cos Im happy to engage with BTG...who you have accused of rasicm.....you've over stepped the mark pal, get lost, your off the xmas card list unless you apologise to me and cpt and BTG....

BetterTogether is no more a racist than you or me Rob, he just really knows what he is talking about. Unfortunately we all seem to have encountered a person, who when disagrees with anybody's views has to resort to name calling, condescending posts and so on. In my opinion it's a sad way to live your life thinking you are better than everybody around you. That person may have branded me a racist by association, (to be honest I hadn't noticed that, because I can't be bothered reading their posts!) but, my one and only concern is for my children and grandchild's safety. So that person can carry on calling me names - I don't care.

However, you and BetterTogether do deserve an apology, but I highly doubt you will get one !

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 21:46
BetterTogether is no more a racist than you or me Rob, he just really knows what he is talking about. Unfortunately we all seem to have encountered a person, who when disagrees with anybody's views has to resort to name calling, condescending posts and so on. In my opinion it's a sad way to live your life thinking you are better than everybody around you. That person may have branded me a racist by association, (to be honest I hadn't noticed that, because I can't be bothered reading their posts!) but, my one and only concern is for my children and grandchild's safety. So that person can carry on calling me names - I don't care.

However, you and BetterTogether do deserve an apology, but I highly doubt you will get one !

No there will be no apology and no action taken by mods...cos her face fits politically how else can she get away with name calling / condescending / innuendos etc...

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 21:52
What name calling Rob?

Theres more than me that has seen you "name calling" why not ask them ( see CPT posting ) oh silence is golden with you..... and monaghan your silence condemns you as supporting this goons vile rubbish.................Go away....................................

squidge
05-Sep-15, 21:57
I suppose calling BT spiteful was indeed calling him names.shocking I know

What has Paul Monaghan got to do with anything?

davth
05-Sep-15, 22:31
I suppose calling BT spiteful was indeed calling him names.shocking I knowWhat has Paul Monaghan got to do with anything?Whilst we are on the subject, what's your thoughts on his social media postings of late?

squidge
06-Sep-15, 00:00
I don't really follow him on Twitter or Facebook. I have seen threads on here but to be honest I stopped even reading anything posted which has SNP, Paul Monaghan, Nicola sturgeon or Oil in the title. - Even before sticking BT on ignore. I have never met Paul Monaghan, nor spoken to him.

However, if Paul Monaghan or any other elected representative for that matter, has posted stuff that is unacceptable on Twitter or Facebook, then he or she should be held to account for that. It's never acceptable to be abusive or racist in any post on any form of social media and it is right that people who are should be called to account for their posts. Being an MP does not make someone immune to being held to account - in fact it should make them more accountable, not less.

However in the same way that I accept that posting a racist post doesn't necessarily make BT a racist, because I don't know if they are or not, then I have no idea about the sort of person Paul Monaghan is. I am sure though, that those people who have been following what's been going on, and are offended will be doing something other than complaining on here - there are proper routes to complain about the conduct of an MP and I expect that they will take the necessary course of action to do exactly that.

cptdodger
06-Sep-15, 01:54
No there will be no apology and no action taken by mods...cos her face fits politically how else can she get away with name calling / condescending / innuendos etc...

It looks like you're right about the apology. As for getting away with the name calling / condescending / innuendos etc, you are probably right there as well. At least BetterTogether doesn't have to put up with it anymore, neither of you deserved that.

bekisman
06-Sep-15, 10:30
Just popped in to see what’s going on.. see squidge is still holding court. Do any of you remember years ago on the Org when some glitch made it possible to see who had given out suspensions etc? I think I was one of the first to notice and guess what; squidge was a Mod and had ‘done’ me.. She leads an insusceptible path through these pages, which is oh so very obvious by the disappearance of the old guard which brought a more balanced discussion platform.

Never mind, flavour of the month; ‘Migrants’ et al. Ok very sad to see - especially if looked at via less delicate overseas broadcasters - the poor kid washed up. OK I’m no stranger to seeing dead children, as a fire fighter there is nothing more heart wrenching to enter a building full of smoke - caused by some half-cut dimshite who decides to cook some chips and falls asleep, to find upstairs some little form, laying in her cot; Stone cold dead. Or motor accidents with kids involved. I’m not putting this in to say ‘look at me’ but I take the view of the spouting from people in lofty towers who are far removed from dead cold reality with a huge pinch of salt.

The Kurdi family had been in Turkey for three years before deciding they should move on to Europe. The family are understood to have been trying to travel to Canada where relatives had pledged to sponsor their asylum claim. “They left Damascus in 2012 and headed to Aleppo, and when clashes happened there, they moved to Kobani,” . “And again, when clashes [with Islamic State] happened there, they moved to Turkey.” (BBC) but yes, very very sad

My own opinion - for what it’s worth is that yes, we take ‘real’ Syrian cases, those without iPhones, thousands of £’s to pay people traffickers, and help those in the 20 or so refugee camps in Islahiye, Nizip, Zaatari, Domiz, Basirma, Shatila where the people are actually desperate and existing in poverty. One thing that no-one wants is to encourage others to make the dangerous journey to Europe.
But of course German Chancellor Angela Merkel has opened her big mouth and stated there is no legal limit to the number of asylum seekers Germany will take in,: "The right to political asylum has no limits on the number of asylum seekers." Gosh, quick use that mobile and ring home, get ‘em all here. It might be fine for Merkel to placate her collective German conscience, but by god it will most certainly ram the flood gates wide open for the Federal Republic of Germany, and coincidentally be the cause of great many more deaths. Why the hell don’t the Germans and others use their finances and go collect from refugee camps. It’ll stem the flow.
Calais. Been watching documentaries about the poor folk in Calais, desperate to get to UK (having passed through a number of ‘safe’ countries to attempt to get here). Can’t be that bad in France, Christ last year 172,000 Brits went to live there!

A hell of a lot of my relations by marriage are German (conservative with a small ‘c’), unfortunately many others do not share Merkel’s simplistic ideals, the comment of “wish we had an English Channel” is whispered. PEGIDA is seeing a massive increase in support there, god knows where that will end up, as these Germans are a volatile race!.
Of course the In/Out referendum will be affected, rumour has it that IF Cameron wants changes, he will have to offer more in the migrant/asylum field. He won’t get it, so conversely no change and we’ll be out - which the EU in general do not want. Latest new Survation poll reveals 51% would vote to leave if a referendum was held tomorrow.Some 22% of those surveyed who said they wanted to stay in the EU said they might change their minds if the migration crisis worsened.

Bottom line yes help these people but ONLY from the Refugee camps where REAL help is needed.

BetterTogether
06-Sep-15, 11:01
Now there's something I didn't know Squidge used to be a moderator, that may well explain how she manages to get away with behaviour which from any other member would draw immediate and swift draconian action.
Still it's too much to expect any kind of reasoned debate with a bigot, as usual there's no give no acceptance of any other idea except the one currently being put forward in such dictatorial terms.

Meanwhile in the wider world as Bekisman has so quite rightly noted the surveys show a growing momentum to leave the EU and immigration is the main concern on the majority of people's minds.

It's all well and good shouting from the roof tops about your latest cause and abasing anyone who dissents from your politically correct views but if one where to stop for a moment and look at just this thread, there haven't been loads of posters agreeing with Squidge the reports of thousands sending aid disminshes into nothingness when compared to the tens of millions of who live in the whole nation.
One petition doing the rounds on Facebook, Twitter and just about every social media source available getting some 400k signatures isn't a great triumph it's just the same usual group of political keyboard warriors doing their utmost to change government policy.
What you don't see is the amount of people who may have contributed but feel alienated by the abusive tone taken to anyone who dares to disagree.
The term racist spat in the face of anyone who has the temerity to voice very real concerns.

This form of aggressive political agitation we have all witnessed over the last few years simply estranged more than it encourages its wears people down to the point where they cease to care and just end up doing nothing.
I know of people who are no longer on the org due to paranoid rantings of one person who used their influence to dispatch them for no other reason than mistaken identity.
Was any contrition shown after that person was proven to be incorrect not in the slightest they had become a victim to a ruthless intolerant campaign of hatred which knows no respect for anyone but themselves.

Thankfully the wider debate rumbles on ordinary voices people sit back observe say very little for fear of being tarred with some unsavoury label and form their own opinions on the situation.

BetterTogether
06-Sep-15, 11:07
Meanwhile I suggest that Squidge reads up on what Racism actually is and stops using it as a lazy insult to abuse anyone who disagrees with her viewpoint. Oh but I'm blocked so now doubt this post won't be read like her.

BetterTogether
06-Sep-15, 12:51
In answer to some posts on this thread claiming racist views or overt racism it should well be remebered that while giving succour and solace to genuine refugees is all very worthy.

Each leader of a European Country has to consider its own internal problems at the same time.

If we are to believe everything we hear Germany is welcoming with open arms refugees but one should also bear in mind the oft not well publicised problem with the rise of extreme right wing parties across Europe.

Bringing more refugees into any country is bound to to create more internal problems for each country with the far right being of more concern than any other group.

Oversimplifying any given problem does nothing to ease the tensions faced by all nations in the modern world.

Facing age old problems but on a truly modern scale.

What we need is open honest debate on the issues not heart wrenching images designed to exploit the charitable nature of most people and stifle reasonable rational debate on situations which bring with them a whole plethora of problems that go way beyond a simple charitable gift.



http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/13/european-far-right-on-the-rise-how-to-tackle

cptdodger
06-Sep-15, 12:58
Just popped in to see what’s going on.. see squidge is still holding court. Do any of you remember years ago on the Org when some glitch made it possible to see who had given out suspensions etc? I think I was one of the first to notice and guess what; squidge was a Mod and had ‘done’ me.. She leads an insusceptible path through these pages, which is oh so very obvious by the disappearance of the old guard which brought a more balanced discussion platform.

Well, that explains an awful lot.

cptdodger
06-Sep-15, 13:03
A hell of a lot of my relations by marriage are German (conservative with a small ‘c’), unfortunately many others do not share Merkel’s simplistic ideals, the comment of “wish we had an English Channel” is whispered. PEGIDA is seeing a massive increase in support there, god knows where that will end up, as these Germans are a volatile race!.
Of course the In/Out referendum will be affected, rumour has it that IF Cameron wants changes, he will have to offer more in the migrant/asylum field. He won’t get it, so conversely no change and we’ll be out - which the EU in general do not want. Latest new Survation poll reveals 51% would vote to leave if a referendum was held tomorrow.Some 22% of those surveyed who said they wanted to stay in the EU said they might change their minds if the migration crisis worsened.

Bottom line yes help these people but ONLY from the Refugee camps where REAL help is needed.

So basically, if we left the EU tomorrow, it would be up to Britain alone how many refugees we take, or don't take as the case may be?

BetterTogether
06-Sep-15, 16:07
Here's an example of how Kuwaiti officials view Syrian refugees.

Fahad Al Shalami a Kuwaiti Official explains why Syrian. The item is subtitled.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EZbCK95Zu_0

BetterTogether
06-Sep-15, 16:17
Here's a breakdown on which countries are supplying aid to Syrian refugees.




As you will see the UK is by far the single largest net contributor.

cptdodger
06-Sep-15, 16:53
Here's a breakdown on which countries are supplying aid to Syrian refugees.


As you will see the UK is by far the single largest net contributor.

We keep getting told Britain is broke, so exactly where is this money coming from ?

theone
06-Sep-15, 23:02
We keep getting told Britain is broke, so exactly where is this money coming from ?

Become a left winger or nationalist and technicalities like that won't bother you.

cptdodger
06-Sep-15, 23:25
Become a left winger on nationalist and technicalities like that won't bother you.

I had to look up the definition of a left wing nationalist, because I've never understood the difference between left and right wing. But if I am looking at the correct definition, I would rather not thank you.

squidge
07-Sep-15, 07:16
There are something like 1m empty homes in Britain right now. We do not have enough social housing because we have had Westminster governments who have failed to build social housing - not because Britain can't afford social housing.

We dont have food banks because of a lack of food. We have foodbanks because government policy on Social Security pushes people, through welfare "reforms" into a situation where they have no money. The overwhelming reason people use food banks is because of sanctions and other welfare reforms. Not because there is not enough food to go round.

BetterTogether
07-Sep-15, 09:53
Hang on it isn't the responsibility of the government to feed and house everyone, it's a sign of failure when you have to resort to blaming the government for people who haven't managed to put their lives on a stable enough footing to provide shelter and food for themselves. Seems someone wants the state to encompass every aspect of people's lives and their own respective failures are Westminsters not their own.

Shabbychic
07-Sep-15, 11:38
Hang on it isn't the responsibility of the government to feed and house everyone, it's a sign of failure when you have to resort to blaming the government for people who haven't managed to put their lives on a stable enough footing to provide shelter and food for themselves. Seems someone wants the state to encompass every aspect of people's lives and their own respective failures are Westminsters not their own.


Do you honestly believe that poverty in this country is solely based on lazy people who depend on the government for handouts? You seem to be good at using a search engine for finding dirt on the SNP.......why don't you use some of your skills and research what is going on in this country regarding things like jobs paying less that the living wage and folks on zero-hour contracts. (which make up the majority of food bank users) There are also genuine sick and disabled people who are being plunged below the poverty line by our failing social security system, with delays in benefit payments and unfair benefit sanctions.

You are probably one of those who believe folks go to food banks when they feel like it, so they can use their ill gotten gains from the government for other uses. Have you had a look at what the menu is in food banks? Not exactly luxury living. They are also stocked by food donations from the public, not by a generous government.

This must be one of your least thought out posts to date, and that's saying something!

theone
07-Sep-15, 12:23
Do you honestly believe that poverty in this country is solely based on lazy people who depend on the government for handouts? You seem to be good at using a search engine for finding dirt on the SNP.......why don't you use some of your skills and research what is going on in this country regarding things like jobs paying less that the living wage and folks on zero-hour contracts. (which make up the majority of food bank users) There are also genuine sick and disabled people who are being plunged below the poverty line by our failing social security system, with delays in benefit payments and unfair benefit sanctions.

You are probably one of those who believe folks go to food banks when they feel like it, so they can use their ill gotten gains from the government for other uses. Have you had a look at what the menu is in food banks? Not exactly luxury living. They are also stocked by food donations from the public, not by a generous government.

This must be one of your least thought out posts to date, and that's saying something!

Do you think taking in tens of thousands of unemployed, homeless people will improve this situation?

BetterTogether
07-Sep-15, 12:58
Do you think taking in tens of thousands of unemployed, homeless people will improve this situation?Of course it will ! If certain members of the esteemed off org are to be believed it will bring no problems what so ever and each and every one or the refugees will be overwhelmingly grateful and live happy and prosperous lives abiding by our laws and conforming to our cultural norms.

Shabbychic
07-Sep-15, 13:10
Do you think taking in tens of thousands of unemployed, homeless people will improve this situation?

I believe I was responding to a post regarding the government feeding and housing UK citizens. Nowhere did it mention refugees or migrants nor do I believe that was who was being referred to.

BetterTogether
07-Sep-15, 13:14
Maybe if some of those on good wages were to vacate their council properties and move into the private sector there wouldn't be such a squeeze on social housing.

Shabbychic
07-Sep-15, 13:19
Maybe if some of those on good wages were to vacate their council properties and move into the private sector there wouldn't be such a squeeze on social housing.

Great idea! That would also solve low wages, poverty and the benefits problems. Food would be aplenty!

Seriously though, it is not easy nowadays moving into the private sector. Not so easy to get a mortgage even if you have a decent wage.

theone
07-Sep-15, 13:52
I believe I was responding to a post regarding the government feeding and housing UK citizens. Nowhere did it mention refugees or migrants nor do I believe that was who was being referred to.

My mistake.

Forgive me. I thought that in a thread based on refugees you might be referring to their housing.

BetterTogether
07-Sep-15, 14:28
Great idea! That would also solve low wages, poverty and the benefits problems. Food would be aplenty!Seriously though, it is not easy nowadays moving into the private sector. Not so easy to get a mortgage even if you have a decent wage.Well why not start a thread on those issues if they are of such concerns to you. I didn't realise you required a mortgage to rent private sector or is that an anathema to you and all people should be given social housing instead of keeping it for those that most require to you. Currently the biggest issue facing this country is Obesity not starvation.

Alrock
07-Sep-15, 15:56
Maybe if some of those on good wages were to vacate their council properties and move into the private sector there wouldn't be such a squeeze on social housing.

Nobody in their right mind would give up social housing to move into the private sector...

Have you seen the state of many private sector rental properties, especially at the lower end of the market?

Social housing is a home for those who can't afford to buy, Private rental will never be a home, just a stop gap.

Rheghead
07-Sep-15, 18:54
Nobody in their right mind would give up social housing to move into the private sector...

Have you seen the state of many private sector rental properties, especially at the lower end of the market?

Social housing is a home for those who can't afford to buy, Private rental will never be a home, just a stop gap.

I thought there was an ombudsman that determines whether private rental meets a basic level of decent habitation, ie. to match the level in social housing?

Alrock
07-Sep-15, 19:53
I thought there was an ombudsman that determines whether private rental meets a basic level of decent habitation, ie. to match the level in social housing?

They may be habitable (though some are not), but that is far from being a home...

You can't decorate, you have to put up with someone elses interior design (in many cases the cheepest tat they can lay their hands on so that they can call it furnished & charge more (extortionate) rent)

There is the ever present danger of eviction, etc.

So, basically you are living under someone elses roof by their rules.

squidge
07-Sep-15, 22:46
Shabbychic is Absolutely right. We have social housing in this country because our politicians used to believe that EVERYONE was entitled to a decent place to live. It isn't free - the vast majority of people living in social housing work and pay rent. In fact if you work and live in social housing - going in now as a tenant paying £50 a week for your whole life - say 50 years then you will likely pay around £130 000. People pay rent for council houses just like anyone else pays for their housing. Those who think that social housing is for the lazy, or state provided for those people who can't or who won't provide for themselves seem to overlook that.

People may not be ABLE to move out into the private sector because they have no security of tenure in private rented property - a 6 month short assured tenancy does not provide peace of mind and long term lets are difficult to find. In addition if everyone moved out of social housing it would be likely that housing benefits would have to rise. Much of the rise in housing benefit is because so many people live in private rental housing and have to claim housing benefit

Shabbychic is also right to say that food banks have grown directly as a result of the policies put in place by the UK parliament because they have been the only government able to decide welfare policy and Employment law. Now folk can stamp their feet and throw around accusations of blaming Westminster but in these two issues, there is nowhere else to place blame. Welfare policy, payment delays, the appalling implementation of The Work capability assessment and the refusal to accept medical advice have been policy decisions; the way sanctions have been changed, prioritised and pushed have been a deliberate policy decision - theses things have led DIRECTLY to the numbers of people using food banks. And yet these policies continue, even when the government KNOWS these policies put people at risk of suicide, their action is NOT to review the policy, amend or change it, instead it gives call handlers pink sheets to hold above their heads and wholly inadequate suicide training.

The attitude of this government to refugees is part of the same issue. Our Government thinks that supporting people when they need support - sick, disabled, unemployed, refugees - is a waste of money. The "othering" that we have seen by the media, by the politicians, the benefit porn programmes, headlines like those in the Daily Express about refugees and IsIS are all part of the same thing. I'm alright Jack stuff you. It's like a superiority attitude. By that I mean that this Government won't support people who need support because they don't think they are worth the money, not worth the compassion, think that somehow they are better than them, not the same as them.

The same applies to refugees, The government and others think Britain is so much better than other countries that it must be where every refugee wants to come, and we cannot let that happen, it's no wonder they want to come here and we must not let them because we don't want their sort, they should go to places "more suitable" for them, when what they really mean us that they are not the right sort, not "our" sort, not like us.

Thank goodness that so many people will never ever understand that attitude, not for the poor, the sick, the disabled, the homeless, or refugees.

BetterTogether
08-Sep-15, 03:59
Meanwhile we have some of the most generous social security payments and housing in the world we also spend a large amount of public money on humanitarian aid but as per usual these facts are totally ignored and we should just spend more and more money.

Squidge as usual you shame yourself with your moral superiority on the current refugee/ migrant situation and totally ignore the realities proffering your usual tokenism which is probably far worse than anything else.

You never fail to use any excuse to blame Westminster for everything when the current Holyrood government is failing in just about every conceivable issue except that of blowing more hot air than any other party.

I have yet to hear how intend to fund any single issue you comment on its always whine and complain but provide no single rationale answer just spend spend spend to the point where the country would be Bankrupt if we followed your example.
You must be one of the most fiscally irresponsible people I've ever come across with little or no idea where the money comes from but always a ready excuse to fund more social spending.
Always attacking but I notice your utter silence on every thread where SNP failures are highlighted you seem unable or unwilling to defend the party you openly vociferously support.
Your quixotic rabid attacks on anyone who disagrees with you are almost laughable in their ill thought out proposals of allowing limitless amounts of refugees/ migrants into the country just so you can feel some kind of moral superiority without giving but a second thought for the impact such drastic actions would have on the country.

Please feel free to explain why you've suddenly felt the need to jump on the bandwagon when the situation is hardly new it's been ongoing for years and why choose only Syrian Refugees, why not those from Iraq, Afghanistan, Southern Sudan, Darfur, Eritrea, Libya, Yemen, Mali, Democratic Republic of Congo, Rwanda, Chechnya, Myanmar, Palestine or Lebanon or Colombia or Kashmir in fact from anywhere in the world where people daily face the horrors of war.

Why stop at 20,000 or 200,000 Syrians why not 2 million the moral argument and desperate need is the same for each case where do you draw the line.


What your actually offering is a token gesture to make yourself feel nicer and morally superior. I note when I mentioned you personally taking in Refugees you found an excuse not to but if you truly felt so strongly about the issue there would be no need for excuses you'd just act and think of the repercussions later.

I ask again where was your moral outrage over the last few years or months as this problem has escalated to its current situation it seems to have been missing.

Fulmar
08-Sep-15, 11:55
BT, do you not think that there is truth on all sides and that it does not have to be all or nothing? I agree with the truth of much of what you say- yes, there was not a clamour to take in millions from all those countries and conflict areas that you mention but on the other hand, I am not aware that the people in those places were asking to leave but just to be helped- and the generosity of people in many parts of the world was forthcoming in the form of aid to overseas charities. Also, it is good to remember that there are very many projects that are ‘good news’ stories where people have been helped (maybe through the gift of seed, or plants or goats or a clean water supply or the establishment of a basic health care system or whatever) to get on their feet and make a living and send their kids to school and all the rest.
In the current situation with the refugees, yes there has been an out-pouring of emotion and a willingness on the part of ordinary folk to want to help. Surely that is something to be celebrated and not denigrated- and Squidge does not deserve the scorn that is being heaped upon her, not in my view anyway. We all perhaps need to calm down and ALL be more respectful towards one another on here.
In Calais, where, as you have rightly pointed out some (I do not know the percentage) are economic migrants rather than true refugees, there is still a huge humanitarian need. You can say (as you have done) that you do not have sympathy for people injured trying to climb over razor wire etc and who are ‘illegal’ but what would you rather happen? That their wounds are left to turn gangrenous and that they die of septicaemia? If we used this argument in our own NHS, then we would not treat those who have diabetes through being obese from over-eating nor those who have cancers that might have been prevented if they had followed a better life style etc. We would not even take those young men from their cars (and we see a lot of this up here) who have crashed because of sheer stupidity and speed. I think that proper facilities need to be set up in Calais and people have to be registered and if needs be, returned to their own countries if it is established that they are not going to be in danger there. Some of it probably won’t be ‘fair’ but that is not an argument for doing nothing, not in my view anyway. Yes, those of us who are sympathetic to their plight have to dig deep into our own pockets to help to fund it. Ditto if we have said we wish to help Syrian refugees. I am absolutely willing to take someone in for a while- I don’t have much money, don’t even have enough to pay income tax but I do have a spare room and I know how to live frugally and to cook inexpensive meals and all the rest of it. I am lucky and blessed that I have a home, food to eat and warmth and am willing to share that.
Yes, you are right to say and to point out the plight of those already here who need help and I contribute to that as best I can through charities such as Crisis and British Red Cross etc.
None of it is enough, none of it is ‘fair’ on your analysis but if some people can be helped then that, in my opinion is better than refusing to help anybody
I am not a Tory but I support the UK government’s decision to take Syrian refugees from the camps who have not travelled on to Europe. I wholeheartedly support the emphasis on taking in vulnerable adults (women) and especially children such as the little girl (about 12 years old) who was featured in last night’s news (or Newsnight, forget which) who was on her own and looking after 5 younger brothers and sisters. Her father (she thought) was in prison in Syria and her mother had brought them all there and then gone off- where, no one knows but probably to try and find a means of taking them all somewhere safe. Is this the children’s fault? No, of course not and I hope that they will soon be on a plane to a place of true safety (she had not even heard of the UK) and I would dig into my pocket to help to fund it because I too have children and grandchildren and I would hope that someone would reach out to my loved ones in the same way, if the need ever arose. Sometimes, the need does arise, even in rich and wealthy countries like our own- think about New Orleans 10 years ago- and the pathetic response from the American government while their people died. I (and I will not say ‘we’ as that does not go down well on here) know that I need to be ready to say, ‘yes I will help’ as otherwise I could not live with myself.

BetterTogether
08-Sep-15, 14:58
Might be worth while if some of you who are actively supporting taking in a large number of refugees/ migrants did some research on HirJah and its context within the Islamic world.

For those of you not up to speed it refers to migration and Mohamed's march on Medina seen as a perfectly acceptable method to populate new lands.

tonkatojo
08-Sep-15, 15:23
[QUOTE=BetterTogether;1129642]Might be worth while if some of you who are actively supporting taking in a large number of refugees/ migrants did some research on HirJah and its context within the Islamic world.

For those of you not up to speed it refers to migration and Mohamed's march on Medina seen as a perfectly acceptable method to populate new lands.[/QUOT

Is this what you are referencing to http://www.britannica.com/event/Hijrah-Islam

BetterTogether
08-Sep-15, 15:27
[QUOTE=BetterTogether;1129642]Might be worth while if some of you who are actively supporting taking in a large number of refugees/ migrants did some research on HirJah and its context within the Islamic world.For those of you not up to speed it refers to migration and Mohamed's march on Medina seen as a perfectly acceptable method to populate new lands.[/QUOTIs this what you are referencing to http://www.britannica.com/event/Hijrah-Islam


Aye that's the one it also has a part within jihad



"It is to leave what Allah has forbidden. In Islam, it has come in two forms. The first is leaving from a land of fear to a land of safety and security, as in the two hijrahs to Abbyssinia and the beginning of the hijrah from Makkah to Madinah. The second is from the land of kufr to the land of Islam. That was after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was settled in Madinah and those Muslims who were able to emigrated there."


One is to flea a land the other is to take over a land.

"Hijrah will not be discontinued as long as the enemy is being fought."

squidge
09-Sep-15, 07:32
I saw something today which said that there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, and that if Islam really did breed terrorists then we would be dead all ready, that only 2% of terrorist attacks worldwide are by Muslim fundamentalists and that all those fighting for Daesh, Boko Haram, and other fundamental organisations make up less than 1% of the worlds Muslims. You are in fact more likely to be killed by almost anything else, including chocolate, peanuts and the NHS.

One picture doing the rounds today showed a man tooled up with a gun and in fatigues and then showed the same man as a refugee with the tag line which said "yesterday ISIS fighter today refugee" in actual fact this was a picture from an article in a paper - I think the telegraph- which had interviewed this man as a person fighting Against ISIS a few months ago. There had been a big spread on him and how he was part of the forces standing up to ISIS. These things are cropping up all over the place and man of them are not true. That's also worth remembering.

BetterTogether
09-Sep-15, 07:40
Ok so I assume all those people leaving Syria. Libya Darfur are being attacked by chocolate & peanuts. This has to be the most bury your head in the sand ignore the realities posts so far.

By someone who has absolutely no clue about Islam and they type of religion it can be.

HirJah requires no violence it simply requires a mass of people to move by any means possible

bekisman
09-Sep-15, 10:08
A wee bit off topic but Squidge #194 cannot be allowed to burble such nonsense, quote: “social housing isn't free - the vast majority of people living in social housing work and pay rent. In fact if you work and live in social housing - going in now as a tenant paying £50 a week for your whole life - say 50 years then you will likely pay around £130 000.”
That’s terrible paying £130,00 over a lifetime! I notice she is renting.. as anyone knows - apart from squidge- -who’s got a mortgage it’s a wee bit more, say for example in todays world buying a house for £130,000 will cost in total £184,911 paying £400 a month - that includes interest.
True example; my Son purchased a house in Wilson Street, Thurso, on a mortgage.
Other houses in that street were social housing. Four months later, every social housing property had all their windows freely replaced at a cost of c£3,500. I own my own house and have replaced my own windows at great cost, my roof needed repairing after January’s storm, My boiler system has been replaced at cost to me whilst not one mile away a social housing friend has had her whole system replaced for free by the council. So come on Squidge, stop spouting nonsense.


Anyway back to the Refugees/Migrants…

Alrock
09-Sep-15, 11:30
A wee bit off topic but Squidge #194 cannot be allowed to burble such nonsense, quote: “social housing isn't free - the vast majority of people living in social housing work and pay rent. In fact if you work and live in social housing - going in now as a tenant paying £50 a week for your whole life - say 50 years then you will likely pay around £130 000.”
That’s terrible paying £130,00 over a lifetime! I notice she is renting.. as anyone knows - apart from squidge- -who’s got a mortgage it’s a wee bit more, say for example in todays world buying a house for £130,000 will cost in total £184,911 paying £400 a month - that includes interest.
True example; my Son purchased a house in Wilson Street, Thurso, on a mortgage.
Other houses in that street were social housing. Four months later, every social housing property had all their windows freely replaced at a cost of c£3,500. I own my own house and have replaced my own windows at great cost, my roof needed repairing after January’s storm, My boiler system has been replaced at cost to me whilst not one mile away a social housing friend has had her whole system replaced for free by the council. So come on Squidge, stop spouting nonsense.


Anyway back to the Refugees/Migrants…


I'm in social housing, paying about £70 per week rent...

So, over the life of an average motgage of 25 years I would have paid about £84000 in rent for a house worth less than £50000 & would still have to continue paying rent...

So, extrapulating from your figures, a £50000 would cost in total abot £71000, a saving of £13000 with no more to pay once paid.

theone
09-Sep-15, 12:06
I'm in social housing, paying about £70 per week rent...

So, over the life of an average motgage of 25 years I would have paid about £84000 in rent for a house worth less than £50000 & would still have to continue paying rent...

So, extrapulating from your figures, a £50000 would cost in total abot £71000, a saving of £13000 with no more to pay once paid.

Most 25 year mortgages result in a payback of 2.1 times the amount borrowed. So on your £50,000 property you would pay £105,000.

Add the maintenance costs, say £1000 a year for heating repairs, new windows etc and the total cost would probably be £130,000 for the £50,000 property.

Inflation and appreciation/depreciation would obviously skew these figures.

The big advantage of social housing, for me, is the knowledge that any repairs are at the cost of the council/housing association and knowing if I lose my job I don't lose my house.

rob murray
09-Sep-15, 12:13
Dunno what the hell is going on on here re social housing........when I was growing up in the 60's in Leith Walk Wick.... everyone I knew lived in a council house, ie paying rent to the council. Our street had GPO managers, electricans, an accountant, a teacher, trademen, dounreay workers fishermen etc etc Back then the vast majority of people didnt buy houses, taking on a mortgage wasnt for the working classes. So....did we all live in subsidised housing...... we all paid rents set by the council or were evicted....and why did the council build houses....could it be that what housing existed in Wick in the so called private sector was nothing but slums ???? Nowadays councils dont build houses do they...so social enterprises like Albyn and Cairn etc do...and why...because believe it or not some people cannot afford to buy / take on mortgages thats why. ALso fills in gaps in poor private sector provision....so stop the social housing stigma its pathetic.

From a former Leith Walker brought up in a council house....and proud of it.

cptdodger
09-Sep-15, 12:27
I grew up in what we called a Corporation house, my mother grew up in the same house, and I was actually born there. My parents still live in the house ! It has been in our family since the early 1930's. Let's just say, thanks to the stigma of living in social housing, my school years were not the best, as I lived in what would be classed as an affluent area. Certainly, I bought a house in the 1990's, my (now ex) husband disappeared left me with two children and a mortgage (in Kent), he was supposedly paying half the mortgage, I didn't find out for nearly a year he had not been (he was first named), so tried to sell the house, but was stuck in negative equity, long story short the house was repossessed, because I could not pay the arrears and feed my children, so I am now in what you term as social housing. Myself and my partner did look at buying a house, but because of what happened to me, which was nothing to do with him, he was not allowed a mortgage, I am a liability, through no fault of my own.

rob murray
09-Sep-15, 12:31
I grew up in what we called a Corporation house, my mother grew up in the same house, and I was actually born there. My parents still live in the house ! It has been in our family since the early 1930's. Let's just say, thanks to the stigma of living in social housing, my school years were not the best, as I lived in what would be classed as an affluent area. Certainly, I bought a house in the 1990's, my (now ex) husband disappeared left me with two children and a mortgage (in Kent), he was supposedly paying half the mortgage, I didn't find out for nearly a year he had not been (he was first named), so tried to sell the house, but was stuck in negative equity, long story short the house was repossessed, because I could not pay the arrears and feed my children, so I am now in what you term as social housing. Myself and my partner did look at buying a house, but because of what happened to me, which was nothing to do with him, he was not allowed a mortgage, I am a liability, through no fault of my own.

Thats terrible......point Im making is that there is nothing wrong with council / corporation / social housing, they all served and serve a purpose, we had no stigma growing up, as there was loads more council housing than privately owned.

cptdodger
09-Sep-15, 12:36
Thats terrible......point Im making is that there is nothing wrong with council / corporation / social housing, they all served and serve a purpose, we had no stigma growing up, as there was loads more council housing than privately owned.

I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with social housing, and I hope it didn't come across as that. I was just making the point that there is an awful lot of people have no choice but to live in social housing.

rob murray
09-Sep-15, 12:53
I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with social housing, and I hope it didn't come across as that. I was just making the point that there is an awful lot of people have no choice but to live in social housing.

no and I totally agree with you !

bekisman
09-Sep-15, 13:20
Hey, nothing wrong with living in a Council House, I was born in one and later lived in another for 11 years before buying it.. Thanks 'theone' #204 for pointing out the obvious to others who may have well missed the point..
I see yesterday - the Inverness Courier - that he Highland Council states there are 10,000 on the 'Housing List' in the Highlands, so (getting back on track) where the hell is Sturgeon going to put all these refugees/migrants she wants to welcome to Scotland, What's Fife's waiting List? c15,238.. et el.

cptdodger
09-Sep-15, 13:38
Hey, nothing wrong with living in a Council House, I was born in one and later lived in another for 11 years before buying it.. Thanks 'theone' #204 for pointing out the obvious to others who may have well missed the point..
I see yesterday - the Inverness Courier - that he Highland Council states there are 10,000 on the 'Housing List' in the Highlands, so (getting back on track) where the hell is Sturgeon going to put all these refugees/migrants she wants to welcome to Scotland, What's Fife's waiting List? c15,238.. et el.

I don't know but this is in The Caithness Courier today -

"REFUGEES should be welcomed to Caithness to benefit services and fill jobs in the county as well as giving them somethwhere to start a new life. That is the message from Thurso Highland councillor, Roger Saxon, who has given his support to a petition calling on more people to the be allowed into the UK after being forced to fleew their homeland."

bekisman
09-Sep-15, 14:22
I don't know but this is in The Caithness Courier today -

"REFUGEES should be welcomed to Caithness to benefit services and fill jobs in the county as well as giving them somethwhere to start a new life. That is the message from Thurso Highland councillor, Roger Saxon, who has given his support to a petition calling on more people to the be allowed into the UK after being forced to fleew their homeland."

Oh him;
"And remember that Roger Saxon voted against ASDA in Thurso when they were members of the last Highland Council" (ta crayola).. Oh well Highland Council must be wrong then!

cptdodger
09-Sep-15, 14:26
Oh him;
"And remember that Roger Saxon voted against ASDA in Thurso when they were members of the last Highland Council" (ta crayola).. Oh well Highland Council must be wrong then!

I didn't know that, actually I didn't know Asda had even attempted to come here. Why would people vote against Asda?

bekisman
09-Sep-15, 14:32
I didn't know that, actually I didn't know Asda had even attempted to come here. Why would people vote against Asda?
Started years Org Thread: "Tesco Dancing on Asda's grave at the mart in Thurso" went on for years and years and years..

cptdodger
09-Sep-15, 14:40
Started years Org Thread: "Tesco Dancing on Asda's grave at the mart in Thurso" went on for years and years and years..


Of course, I remember seeing that now, but it all seemed to be about whether Tesco was going to build behind the train station, or not as it turned out. I didn't realise Asda had tried to get there. That's a shame, now they are left with nothing on that site.

rob murray
09-Sep-15, 15:23
I don't know but this is in The Caithness Courier today -

"REFUGEES should be welcomed to Caithness to benefit services and fill jobs in the county as well as giving them somethwhere to start a new life. That is the message from Thurso Highland councillor, Roger Saxon, who has given his support to a petition calling on more people to the be allowed into the UK after being forced to fleew their homeland."

Does Councillor Saxon know something we dont.....what jobs / where ? Sounds like another politician jumping on the current flavour of the month...... demonstrating "sympathy" ...with lots of hot air.

cptdodger
09-Sep-15, 15:29
Does Councillor Saxon know something we dont.....what jobs / where ? Sounds like another politician jumping on the current flavour of the month...... demonstrating "sympathy" ...with lots of hot air.I was wondering as well what the services were they would be benefiting from. It's certainly not the NHS which is getting to the stage it's practically non existent.

rob murray
09-Sep-15, 15:30
Hey, nothing wrong with living in a Council House, I was born in one and later lived in another for 11 years before buying it.. Thanks 'theone' #204 for pointing out the obvious to others who may have well missed the point..
I see yesterday - the Inverness Courier - that he Highland Council states there are 10,000 on the 'Housing List' in the Highlands, so (getting back on track) where the hell is Sturgeon going to put all these refugees/migrants she wants to welcome to Scotland, What's Fife's waiting List? c15,238.. et el.

Realistically, refugees can be housed in disused RAF / Army barracks ie Kinloss etc, as like you say, there is very little spare housing capacity in Scotland, or alternatively camps can be built...the types quickly erected for large projects ie Kishorn...workers camp there housed 1,000 plus at its height. All this house a refugee stuff is nonsense, as is we can take x thousands....as you said where exactly are they going to stay...only in areas with available surplus housing...western isles have expressed interest theyve surplus....if we are to progress anything meaninful then the reality of housing and capacity has to come into the equation....other wise its all well intended hot air.

rob murray
09-Sep-15, 15:32
I was wondering as well what the services were they would be benefiting from. It's certainly not the NHS which is getting to the stage it's practically non existent.

AYe I didnt want to pass any comment on the "benifit services" part of the quote as its total nonsense and meaningless......

rob murray
09-Sep-15, 16:06
This url from BBC news is very interesting.....spells out why its to Germanys economic advantage to "welcome" asylum seekers, basically Germanys population is aging and falling, so need for new blood....interestingly Merkles strategy has been open to accusation of creaming off the most talented ( ie skilled ) refugees
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34172729

Still a pressing need for on the ground action by the EU as a whole and the UK......ie dealing with specifics....agreed amounts of asylum seekers, the dispersal and housing of them now / asap......and prevent ghettos being created...over concentration of asylum seekers in areas....the need for dispersal ( and integration ) raises key question on where the availble housing is / how housing will be tackled etc etc ALso good to see genuine cross party cooperation in attack over government inaction / limited responses.....

bekisman
09-Sep-15, 16:43
STOP PRESS:
Just seen on France24 News Channel: 'Angela Merkel, says "Germany will not accept Economic Migrants" Oh that's all right then, not so many as we all thought!

Redsnapper
09-Sep-15, 17:05
Whats the difference between social housing and private renting ? except in the private renting situation the landlord quite often pockets loads of money and provides terrible accommodation. There isn't this awful fixiation with owning a home in most of Europe it just seems to be a UK thing. I could say it all started with Maggie Thatcher and 'greed is good ' -- and no doubt that idea will cause the usual 'anti' rant. ??

BetterTogether
09-Sep-15, 17:13
Local authorities had been required by law to provide council housing since 1919 and Lloyd George's "Homes fit for Heroes" campaign sparked by concerns over the poor physical condition of army recruits.But it was not until after World War II that the age of the council house truly arrived.


So it all started with Maggie Thatcher without going into detail I'd say that is a ever so mildly historically inaccurate statement obviously blind hatred of one political leader who has been out of power for well over twenty years distorts people's versions of reality. Social housing has been in existence for less than a hundred years in its modern context and didn't really start in its modern form until after WWII so in its current form for a little over 60 years.

BetterTogether
09-Sep-15, 17:36
STOP PRESS:Just seen on France24 News Channel: 'Angela Merkel, says "Germany will not accept Economic Migrants" Oh that's all right then, not so many as we all thought!UN Demographic of the refugees

13% women

12% children

75% males aged between 19 and 45

squidge
09-Sep-15, 19:58
A wee bit off topic but Squidge #194 cannot be allowed to burble such nonsense, quote: “social housing isn't free - the vast majority of people living in social housing work and pay rent. In fact if you work and live in social housing - going in now as a tenant paying £50 a week for your whole life - say 50 years then you will likely pay around £130 000.”That’s terrible paying £130,00 over a lifetime! I notice she is renting.. as anyone knows - apart from squidge- -who’s got a mortgage it’s a wee bit more, say for example in todays world buying a house for £130,000 will cost in total £184,911 paying £400 a month - that includes interest.True example; my Son purchased a house in Wilson Street, Thurso, on a mortgage. Other houses in that street were social housing. Four months later, every social housing property had all their windows freely replaced at a cost of c£3,500. I own my own house and have replaced my own windows at great cost, my roof needed repairing after January’s storm, My boiler system has been replaced at cost to me whilst not one mile away a social housing friend has had her whole system replaced for free by the council. So come on Squidge, stop spouting nonsense.Anyway back to the Refugees/Migrants…Which bit of "social housing isn't free because people pay rent" nonsense. I dont dispute that buying a house and owning a house is dearer. I have had a mortgage .... Twice... I bought a house twice with my first husband. Like CPT, I ended up in rented property after my marriage ended. I had to leave my home with my boys and I haven't been in a position to buy a house since. A "corporation" house as they were called where I grew up were great houses and provide a proper place to live but they are not free and it's wrong to describe them as such.

bekisman
09-Sep-15, 20:36
Which bit of "social housing isn't free because people pay rent" nonsense. I dont dispute that buying a house and owning a house is dearer. I have had a mortgage .... Twice... I bought a house twice with my first husband. Like CPT, I ended up in rented property after my marriage ended. I had to leave my home with my boys and I haven't been in a position to buy a house since. A "corporation" house as they were called where I grew up were great houses and provide a proper place to live but they are not free and it's wrong to describe them as such.

It’s ‘nonsense’ merely for the fact you are attempting to infer that we; The Org, populance in general, thicko’s, do not know that social housing [corporation] housing isn’t free.. If you’d bother to read my post#210 I mention I too was born in one and lived in another before buying it, so obviously was fully aware that social housing is not for the lazy and other adjectives you use! So I dont (sic) agree with the inference I don’t realise your “but they are not free and it's wrong to describe them as such”

Rheghead
09-Sep-15, 21:07
UN Demographic of the refugees

13% women

12% children

75% males aged between 19 and 45

Is this so surprising? The imbalance of the gender demographic is probably a symptom that may be attributed the institutionalised gender inequality that they face in their own home countries.

squidge
10-Sep-15, 07:25
It’s ‘nonsense’ merely for the fact you are attempting to infer that we; The Org, populance in general, thicko’s, do not know that social housing [corporation] housing isn’t free.. If you’d bother to read my post#210 I mention I too was born in one and lived in another before buying it, so obviously was fully aware that social housing is not for the lazy and other adjectives you use! So I dont (sic) agree with the inference I don’t realise your “but they are not free and it's wrong to describe them as such”

You might know that beks however, shabbychics post - the post I was responding to, included a quote which quite clearly says that those in social housing are "people who haven't managed to put their lives on a stable enough footing to provide shelter and food for themselves" That is an outrageous thing to say, because, as my post and shabbychics post point out, social housing is not free - people in social housing ARE providing, they are paying rent. Nor is it full of lazy people failing who somehow have an unstable life.

It does therefore seem that whilst you and I and others don't need telling this, clearly BT did need it explaining.

BetterTogether
10-Sep-15, 07:51
Once again another assumption on your part your ability to ascribe statements to me I don't actually make is getting to the point of ridiculous you do seem to have a rather childlike need to smear people who disagree with you.

Although we can tell by your previous statements you have absolutely no issues with privately owning a property and it is only done to happen chance that you currently do not own one now.

So what you aspire to and the situation you currently find yourself in are diametrically opposed with smacks of opportunism and hypocrisy.

You seem to confuse my statement of saying that those able to afford a private property should buy one with laziness, my statement doesn't infer that in anyway and it would be a perverse twisting of those words to arrive at that assumption.

What I'm saying is that social/council housing should be kept for those least able to afford it not as the domain of those well able to afford it but unwilling to pay their full way in society.

Those who are on £35k plus a year do not deserve to be paying a subsidised rent courtesy of the taxpayer. It is only a few who wish to see those most able to pay stripping those least able to afford of a right to housing.

So I'd say those throw their arms up wailing aren't I wicked are quite happy to allow those in genuine need to suffer whilst those with the ability to pay coast along abusing the system.

So it seems to me the dear Squidge is more than happy to allow social systems to be abused as long as she feels happy and loved and has not a jot not of care for the genuinely destitute aside from using others donations to make herself feel good.

bekisman
10-Sep-15, 09:19
You might know that beks however, shabbychics post - the post I was responding to, included a quote which quite clearly says that those in social housing are "people who haven't managed to put their lives on a stable enough footing to provide shelter and food for themselves" That is an outrageous thing to say, because, as my post and shabbychics post point out, social housing is not free - people in social housing ARE providing, they are paying rent. Nor is it full of lazy people failing who somehow have an unstable life.

It does therefore seem that whilst you and I and others don't need telling this, clearly BT did need it explaining.

Just had a look at BT’s post#182: “Hang on it isn't the responsibility of the government to feed and house everyone, it's a sign of failure when you have to resort to blaming the government for people who haven't managed to put their lives on a stable enough footing to provide shelter and food for themselves. Seems someone wants the state to encompass every aspect of people's lives and their own respective failures are Westminsters not their own.”...........


Unfortunately Shabbychic has cherry picked various words to emphasize in bold, no less, I suppose reading it, in my book says more or less ‘because of situations their life is not stable enough et al’. which kinda does encompass Squidge? and myself at one stage, it is NOT (in my opinion) to tell some lazy gits to get off their backsides, but to point out that (in my mind) is to encompass those familys living in Social Housing who's combined income is way above the national average - I KNOW a family who have, on their own admission, have an income of c£60,000 pa. Come on Shabbychic and Squidge, are these morally justified in being housed in such social accommodation?

Alrock
10-Sep-15, 17:35
Those who are on £35k plus a year do not deserve to be paying a subsidised rent courtesy of the taxpayer...

pfft...

Official figures show government spends more money on supporting owner-occupiers than social tenants (http://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2012/jan/27/government-subsidised-social-housing-rent)

council housing is in fact a public asset that brings in more money for councils in rent than it costs in management and maintenance.
(http://www.redpepper.org.uk/mythbuster-home-truths-about-housing/)

Just because council rents are cheaper than private rents doesn't equate to them being subsidised, if anything, private rents are over inflated due to the supply & demand economics of the sector.
In my opinion housing is too important an issue to leave to the whims of the private sector, what we need is more social housing to reduce demand for private rent & bring the rents down in the process.
I have no qualms with anybody of any income bracket living in social housing, if you restrict it to the poorest of the poor all you will end up doing is creating ghettos.

BetterTogether
10-Sep-15, 19:46
This might be a bit of a game changer in Syria

Qasem Soleimani, commander of Iran's elite Quds Force, has sent hundreds of ground soldiers into Syria in the past few days apparently in cooperation with Russia's President Vladimir Putin, said a senior Israeli security official Thursday.

Russia has also recently deployed military assets into Syria and according to the Israeli source, has teamed up with Iran in an unprecedented attempt to protect the embattled regime of Bashar Assad from falling to rebel groups including the Islamic State.

The Israeli source said that Iran's increased military involvement in Syria was "due to Assad's crisis and under Russian-Iranian cooperation as a result of a meeting between Soleimani with Russian President Vladimir Putin," said the Israeli source.

The only Iranian force that has operated in Syria so far has been the Basij militia, a paramilitary organization with a relatively small number of fighters. The security official said that Israel has little to worry about Russia's military activity in Syria saying that it is "not directed at Israel.

"We have dialogue with Russia and we aren't in the middle of the Cold War," continued the source. "We have open channels with the Russians." Israeli security leaders assess that Assad currently controls just 25-30 percent of Syria, mainly around the country's shoreline where critical supplies are shipped into ports.

"It's hard to forecast whether Russia's presence will decide the fate of Syria, but it will lengthen the fighting and bloodletting for at least another year because ISIS won't give up," said the Israeli source.

Along Israel's border with Syria in the Golan Heights, Assad maintains just two enclaves at Quneitra and another smaller area further north, centered around Syrian-Druze villages that look to the regime for protection.

Rebels used bad weather caused by a massive sandstorm across the Middle East in the last few days to gain control of a government-controlled air field near the northern city of Idlib.

squidge
11-Sep-15, 21:02
I'm with Alrock. People are only given social housing if they have a need to be housed. If they go on to earn £60k a year now, then I have no issue with that. At the point they were housed it becomes their home and as long as they are paying rent then they should be allowed to stay in the house.

Council house rents aren't subsidised and, as we have established- they arent free either so if it is your home, you shouldn't be asked to leave because you are earning too much. Imagine a family where mum and dad work, kids go to local school and mum gets a promotion which takes them over some arbitrary earnings limit and they have to leave their home and can't afford to buy or can't find a rented property which allows the kids to stay at their school? It's almost as stupid an idea as the bedroom tax.

As for being "morally justified"?. I don't see home ownership as some moral crusade. It is a home, whether rented or bought is up to each of us to decide

BetterTogether
11-Sep-15, 22:51
So in Squidges and Alrocks world it's morally justifiable for a high earning family to live in social housing while in Scolamd some 15000 are unable to get into it because they can't afford the alternative.

That sounds very dubious, home ownership isn't a moral crusade it's an aspiration which according to Squidge she was once more than happy to subscribe to until her circumstances changed so her posts do smack of a touch of hypocrisy.

I'd quite happily put a maximum cap on the earnings limit for social housing to allow those who are on lower wages to be able to afford somewhere decent to live.

It should be remebered the reason social housing was first provided and it wasn't to allow those on well above average earnings to live in a fully maintained property just because they could.

Now where's the social conscience gone of these people considering I'm supposed to be the more right wing person here it would appear from these posts I care more about providing for the needy than they do.

Out in the big world of the private sector people move areas and houses all the time as their jobs change using some weak argument to say you should only stay in one house and never move is absurd beyond belief it's based on some socialist fantasy that from what I've read here means people should be allowed to stay in social housing regardless of how much money they earn or posses.


Whatever happened to looking after the underprivileged in society providing a safety net for those who genuinely need it.

sids
12-Sep-15, 08:17
Council house rents aren't subsidised


Is it run at a profit then?

squidge
12-Sep-15, 08:43
As Alrock said, often they bring in more in rent than they cost. The people earning a lot of money would be unlikely to be housed today, if they earned that amount of money.
At the point they were housed they must have been in housing need - that might actually be because they moved to an area to teach, or as a nurse or some other key worker. Once allocated that house becomes their home, as long as they pay their rent they should stay if they want. There aren't long Waiting lists because social housing is full of lawyers or stockbrokers - there is a massive list because governments haven't built enough housing for YEARS.

BetterTogether
12-Sep-15, 08:48
You've just changed the basis of your argument.

Try and be consistent it's like trying to debate with the sands of the Sahara.


Shouldn't your statement read they sometimes being in more rent than they cost.


I've yet to meet a teacher who is so poorly paid they can't afford private sector housing and having owned a finance company, I'd be careful how you challenge your assumption.

£35 k a year with extra cash from private teaching is quite common for a teacher but every single one I've met seems to think they are paid poorly. Compare that to the many people frequently on £17 k who thought they where doing ok working longer hours. Seems teachers are beginning to have sense of entitlement.

bekisman
14-Sep-15, 10:06
Seems the ‘Open Border’ espoused by Angela has gone the way most pragmatic people obviously thought it would..

“The best laid schemes o' mice an' [Merkel] / Gang aft a-gley.” apologies to Rabbie!.
Next inglorious episode will be when these refugees/migrants are relocated to the various adjoining countries from Germany where the cry of ‘all are welcome’ still echoes.
The international press will have a field day as the ‘invited guests’ are loaded upon the trains for the onward passage to Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland… Woman and children clinging to their husbands, throwing themselves upon the track, picturing the perceived brutality of the Hungarians. Close ups of terrified children.
What will happen. One of two things. 1) force will be needed to ‘encourage’ these unwilling or 2) they will be allowed to stay in Germany. The symbolism of forced repatriation such as the Cossacks after the Second World War to Russia is still in recent memory.
Unfortunately the exuberance of encouraging the vastly increased flood northwards was well intentioned, yet flawed. With German population at 82 million, and UK at 63 we give £143 per head in overseas aid whilst the former gives £106. A vast increase in improving and funding the existing refugee camps (and accepting/processing refugees FROM there) would have been far more production that the siren call of “come, all come” followed within weeks “shut the border we’re getting full”, you will have to be transported to other EU, not-quite-as-friendly countries.
Hungary building it’s 14ft wall, caused a log-jam in Serbia, what refugee will stop to be ‘registered’ at that border - some way will be found around it. The International Organisation for Migration say that 432,000 migrants have arrived in Europe - this will grow. Again more attention should be focused on the source.

BetterTogether
15-Sep-15, 09:15
Another quick turn up it now appears that Russia has placed tanks around the airport and given Syria state of the art anti aircraft missiles.

There goes any hope the West has of intervention.

Russian boots on the ground very much like Assad will remain in power and ISIS will be pushed out to other areas.


Meanwhile Europe is shutting its borders as the numbers coming become unmanageable.

squidge
16-Sep-15, 08:44
There is a new website for anyone interested in helping or supporting refugees, in Scotland and elsewhere. It links to organisations and other websites and aims to coordinate support http://www.scotlandwelcomesrefugees.scot

BetterTogether
16-Sep-15, 15:24
I think you'll find the amount of refugees/ economic migrants will diminish rather rapidly now their routes into the EU are being blocked. Far better encouraging them to go to the correct places and try gaining legitimate refugee status than supporting people trying to illegally force their way across borders.

Rheghead
16-Sep-15, 17:20
Official UN figures show that the gender demographic of Syrian refugees is broadly 50%-50% male/female.

http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php

BetterTogether
16-Sep-15, 17:43
Very good Rheg but that only deal with those in camps being processed and does not include those crossing borders to try gain access to Europe

Rheghead
16-Sep-15, 22:31
Very good Rheg but that only deal with those in camps being processed and does not include those crossing borders to try gain access to Europe

What are the official figures on those?

cptdodger
16-Sep-15, 22:44
What are the official figures on those?

Is there official figures for those that are coming on boats, lorries and so on? I heard on the news the authorities in Hungary (I believe) are trying to get everybody registered, but they have to get there first.

Rheghead
18-Sep-15, 09:14
Is there official figures for those that are coming on boats, lorries and so on? I heard on the news the authorities in Hungary (I believe) are trying to get everybody registered, but they have to get there first.

I doubt it, so what is the basis for the assertion that migrants are mainly young men? Without proper records then we can't make any conclusions. We cannot rely on eyewitness accounts because 'bias' only allows the witness to see what they want to see.

cptdodger
18-Sep-15, 09:22
so what is the basis for the assertion that migrants are mainly young men?

I have no idea, I don't believe I said they were.

BetterTogether
18-Sep-15, 14:04
Meanwhile fences are being erected around the Borders of Europe, Borders are being closed and patience is wearing thin as the riots and violence begin to escalate.

The EU itself is starting to unravel as they show themselves unable to deal with real crisis.

The way things are going we won't require a referendum to decide if we stay in or leave it will just disintegrate before our eyes.

BetterTogether
26-Sep-15, 14:57
Also today refugees / migrants get to Finland but decide it's too cold and to boring and head off elsewhere.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/26/finlands-no-good-disappointed-migrants-turn-back/

bekisman
12-Feb-16, 12:49
Yes i know - you told me - several times - and I am truly sorry that you had such awful experiences.

However Aylan Kurdi was still three years old and he died in the cold sea because the EU cant get its act together to do what is right. Glad to see that Hungary is allowing the refugees to move on and get to a place where they are to be welcomed.
Of course it's a tragedy when anyone dies in such circumstances - but I was horrified to just discover that the father of Aylan Kurdi, the Syrian toddler whose drowning shocked the world last year, went on trial on Thursday along with two alleged people smugglers accused of causing the death of migrants, being accused of being an organiser of the smuggling..
http://news.yahoo.com/turkey-tries-people-smugglers-over-syrian-toddler-aylans-103518964.html