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Redsnapper
03-Sep-15, 08:28
Latest opinion poll puts yes for independance at 52% and forecasts big gains for SNP in next years elections.

cptdodger
03-Sep-15, 09:02
Latest opinion poll puts yes for independance at 52% and forecasts big gains for SNP in next years elections.

Are these the same polls that said constantly (before the Referendum) that the Yes camp had walked it ?

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 09:28
Could of sworn the referendum was nearly a year ago !

Once in a lifetime.

Once in a generation.


Oh and the economic arguments are now completely shot to pieces !

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 09:51
Latest opinion poll puts yes for independance at 52% and forecasts big gains for SNP in next years elections.

Yes you are correct, next year the SNP will score big time in elections thats a fact ...but is that a good thing ? we would be practically a one party state both in scotland and at westminster........whats also a fact is there is not going to be indy ref 2 not for many years....study sturgeons change of language over independance....and admit that your not hearing a lot....she has set her stall out for 2 terms of government so no indy 2 for at least a decade and only if the big issues can be answered.... you know...currency, economy, EU.... the stuff Salmon tried to bluster and bluff through........so support for indy can be 52%.......or 62% whatever... another referendum is not gonna happen not for a long time. STurgeon has to maintain the pretence of going for indy whilst delivering on the goods ( economy, NHS, education etc ) if she cant deliver the "goods" then people expecting a vote for SNP is a vote for another referendum in the short term ie next couple of years, will soon get mighty hacked off.

squidge
03-Sep-15, 09:59
2020 ...... ;)

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 10:09
2020 ...... ;)If there's another referendum in 2020 there will be another drubbing for the SNP. I think if they do get another whitewash next election that's when they'll cross the rubicon they'll have been in power sufficiently long enough they won't be able to blame their incompetence on Westminster anymore.

Redsnapper
03-Sep-15, 10:48
Instead of constantly whineing about the SNP , would your time not be better spent on asking yourselves why Westminster and the 'mainstream' political parties have found themselves in such a dire situation regarding Scotland ?.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 10:52
I'd like to see one example of a great implemented policy success by the SNP in the last 8 yrs that sets them apart from all the other parties.

Apart from the independence issue their record for actual governance is fairly abysmal but they are very good a constitutional wrangling not much else.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 10:53
The SNP realistically, have at least 2 terms in front of them, even if the wheels come of the wagon in the first term they will get back in for a second at a reduced majority, such is the current electoral maths. However nothing lasts for ever and politics is very volatile, I fully expect to see a lot of disgruntled SNP voters voting on the naive assumption that they will get their indy ref 2 in the short term and then realising that its not gonna happe,n turning against the SNP going into term 2, also splinter parties will sprout up...more extremist characters like RISE, embarassing the mainstream SNP, who like any other government will be found out telling porkies / misbehaving / not delivering and of course dealing with the "Black Swans" ( unforeseen events ) the scourge of all politicans....classic example being oil price reductions and who can predict the far east emerging economies and their performance...( export markets being hit )......China.....you aint seen nothing yet. So the landscape will never be static, the blind will eventually see through one eye...... and see that the emperor may well be wearing no clothes.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 10:59
Instead of constantly whineing about the SNP , would your time not be better spent on asking yourselves why Westminster and the 'mainstream' political parties have found themselves in such a dire situation regarding Scotland ?.

Have to agree with you re mainstream parties, Id say the mainstream parties have bombed in Scotland because of a mix of complacency ( labour ) posioned toxic perception ( Tories ) bed hopping with the Tories ( LD's ) and of courses the hype and falsehoods perpetrated by Salmond at the last indy situation and post indy hangover and naive belief that if the SNP held all power ( ie all westminster seats and whitewashed Holyrood ) then there has to be indy ref 2......nope not a hoope in hell.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 11:05
2020 ...... ;)

ARe you winding us all up...2020 will be at the end of one parliament........the SNP government cannot turn round / grow the economy in 4 years...get real cos its the economy stupid....they havent got the economic levers of power yet as you people put it...but soon will have, so we can see how the economy will perform, sane rational people ( like Sturgeon and Swinney unlike Salmond ) no damn fine they cannot progress any indy ref 2 until the economy delivers the dosh to pay for their promises, if it can then of course they go for indy 2 but, unless your in the know, sturgeons laying out a 2 term vision....and watch out for the black swans !

squidge
03-Sep-15, 11:08
ARe you winding us all up...!

......who me?

squidge
03-Sep-15, 11:16
I'd like to see one example of a great implemented policy success by the SNP in the last 8 yrs that sets them apart from all the other parties.

Apart from the independence issue their record for actual governance is fairly abysmal but they are very good a constitutional wrangling not much else.

Lets see

Bedroom tax mitigation
Independent Living Fund Scotland
Land reform Bill ( Not far enough but its a start)
Community Empowerment Bill
Carers Bill
Free Tuition Fees
Crofting Reform Act
Votes for 16/17 year olds
Abolition of prescription Charges
MPA


For Starters.......................................... .....................

Redsnapper
03-Sep-15, 11:29
Try answering my question please

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 11:39
Try answering my question pleaseI think Rob sums it up quite nicely

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 11:41
Try answering my question please

I did maybe you dont agree...which is different isnt it ??

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 11:44
Lets see Bedroom tax mitigationIndependent Living Fund ScotlandLand reform Bill ( Not far enough but its a start) Community Empowerment BillCarers BillFree Tuition FeesCrofting Reform ActVotes for 16/17 year oldsAbolition of prescription ChargesMPAFor Starters.......................................... .....................
So you're quite happy to have an NHS starved of money but give away free prescription to those easily able to afford them.
You're happy to give voting to 16 and 17 yr old but want them to have a state appointed Guardian till 18.

Free Tuition just cut the amount of places available and still the children from the poorest section of society are discriminated against.

Most of the rest doesn't have any real impact and is just tinkering no bold broad strokes in any of it.

So to sum it up there aren't any real succes stories if that's all you can come up with.

Certainly nothing wide ranging to make the whole of society a better place for everyone.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 11:44
......who me?

Come on squidge....either you know something the rest of us dont ( ie date of indy ref 2 ) or your winding us up.......

Redsnapper
03-Sep-15, 11:44
Quite agree -- as always, a reasoned reply from Rob with some opened minded thinking , but others -- I don't think so.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 12:28
Quite agree -- as always, a reasoned reply from Rob with some opened minded thinking , but others -- I don't think so.

Cheers ! I try to be open minded and my view is Sturgeon and Swinney ( both immeasurably more competent than Salmon ) wont go for an early indy2 as the timing isnt right as we are not in to good a shape, they need time to develop and build the economy as everything flows from this, as I said, in the short term its off, and long term it all depends on the unforeseen Black Swans and how the country copes with these. Either Squidge is at the wind up ( indy 2 in 2020 ) or if thats true then the SNP government have 4 years to produce economic results which is far to little time.

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 12:54
I do believe Ms Sturgeon alluded to another 10yrs in power and all manner of other things in her latest speech but no mention of another referendum. We also have to accept its not up for discussion at the party conference due shortly. So given the evidence in front of us I think Squidge is just grabbing a random number out of the air.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 13:09
I do believe Ms Sturgeon alluded to another 10yrs in power and all manner of other things in her latest speech but no mention of another referendum. We also have to accept its not up for discussion at the party conference due shortly. So given the evidence in front of us I think Squidge is just grabbing a random number out of the air.

Aye...its either that or wishful thinking or she's at the wind up lol lol

BetterTogether
03-Sep-15, 13:27
Well as I can't find any evidence in official SNP sources or recent speeches by the First Minister it could be wishful thinking, maybe she is party to secret meetings with the First Minister like Rupert Murdoch has in New York recently, perhaps she is part of the official SNP think tank making policy to which the rest of us mere mortals are not privileged to hear.

But in reality I think the latter is probably nearer the mark.

Those of a less generous nature than myself might suggest possibly the medication needs adjusting to stop these delusions.

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 13:45
Tend to agree with you, its best to go to the horses mouth ie listen directly to STurgeon and avoid any press interpretations on what she is saying, comming direct from her mouth as heard on radio TV, eg she freely admits that they, the SNP, have horsed up education and allowed an income based attainment gap to occur, she also stated a 2 term government strategy, although she has not stated that indy2 is of the agenda, she has clearly changed her narrative as she avoids any reference to indy 2. ALthoguh she hasnt mentioned NHS mis management, she doesnt need to as 100% of medical professionals know that theyve horsed that up to. So education and NHS will be subject to changes going forward. As for police scotland again she wont admit to SNP failings on this prefering a "review" into operations ie hands off government...wisnae oor fault but we are concerned so need a review ! Swinney...I always rated and I suspect that he is the power behind the throne, he knows in economic terms what lies ahead is very very challenging hence he has also stopped refering to indy 2. If they admit publically indy2 is of the agenda until the mess is sorted and Scotland has an economy which can make its way in the world then they both know that their party will be under attack from disilllusioned yessers...so they have to pretend ( mostly through westminster annoyance / creating tension tactics ) that its still on. Given the complete ineptitude of other mainstream parties the irony is that they will get away with this strategy. Squidge....is at the wind up lol lol lol

squidge
03-Sep-15, 14:08
Rob why on earth would i know the date of the next referendum lol.

but 2020 seems a nice date

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 14:42
Rob why on earth would i know the date of the next referendum lol.

but 2020 seems a nice date

Cos you lunch with Alexi..............lol lol lol knew you were at the wind up....good one... injecting a bit of banter

squidge
03-Sep-15, 14:50
yeah he is coming for dinner tonight - want to join us?

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 14:58
yeah he is coming for dinner tonight - want to join us?

Fit....fat Alecy will scoff all the scrawn afore I get there..... they'll be none left lol lol lol

squidge
03-Sep-15, 15:59
lol fat people have manners too you know..... il save you the best bits sweetie

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 16:03
lol fat people have manners too you know..... il save you the best bits sweetie

WHats on the menu ?

squidge
03-Sep-15, 16:14
Pot roast - Brisket, roast tatties, Yorkshires carrots leeks, home made fruit salad for dessert :)

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 16:24
Pot roast - Brisket, roast tatties, Yorkshires carrots leeks, home made fruit salad for dessert :)

SOunds like my kinda night !! Good old fashioned no nonsense grub !....a bottle or 2 of red as well ??

squidge
03-Sep-15, 16:28
absolutely :)

rob murray
03-Sep-15, 16:34
absolutely :)

AFter 2 glasses I would be rather "agitated" ..........lol lol

davth
03-Sep-15, 20:00
I don't see Westminster sanctioning another referendum on Scottish independence anytime soon.The electorate have already spoken on the matter, and they spoke rather decisively.Cetainly no the close call some expected.

roshep
04-Sep-15, 12:31
Dream on !!! Redsnapper.

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 12:38
Dream on !!! Redsnapper.

If you mean large scale anticpated gains in next years elections.......unfortunatly I would have to agree with redsnapper

squidge
04-Sep-15, 12:43
I thought you held your own very well last night Rob. Alec took your points on the chin I thought. You are right though, you should have stopped at 2 glasses, I really thought standing on the table to make your point was a wee bit of an over reaction lol ;)

rob murray
04-Sep-15, 12:51
I thought you held your own very well last night Rob. Alec took your points on the chin I thought. You are right though, you should have stopped at 2 glasses, I really thought standing on the table to make your point was a wee bit of an over reaction lol ;)

lol lol lol ....youve got me in a oner..............................3 glasses and boom boom

Oddquine
05-Sep-15, 12:27
Cheers ! I try to be open minded and my view is Sturgeon and Swinney ( both immeasurably more competent than Salmon ) wont go for an early indy2 as the timing isnt right as we are not in to good a shape, they need time to develop and build the economy as everything flows from this, as I said, in the short term its off, and long term it all depends on the unforeseen Black Swans and how the country copes with these. Either Squidge is at the wind up ( indy 2 in 2020 ) or if thats true then the SNP government have 4 years to produce economic results which is far to little time.

Suspect squidge is probably thinking that there will not be a time scale for another referendum fixed in the manifesto for the 2016 Parliament,(though I think maybe an "indyref#2 when the time is right" statement wouldn't hurt) but if things carry on as they are here in the UK, and I see little sign that they won't, there will probably be one in the 2020 manifesto. I, personally, hope it won't come before then, because we do need the four years and more to have workable plan Bs for everything, so Westminster can't implement Project Fear again. Last time we were asked, in the YES shop in my area, more questions than we had definitive answers for.....so now we know the questions, we have to provide clear answers....or as clear as answers, on economic matters in particular, can ever be. I only hope that in the next few years, they consult not just the politicians, party members and paid pundits, but also those who knocked on doors and manned the YES hubs and know, first hand, that the questions answered in the Q&A on the last White Paper were not the kinds of questions that most punters were asking.

I must admit, I never thought we would win last time, not even when that single poll put us ahead, and FB was exploding with optimism. I always thought that, even without the VOW, in the end, it would come down to confidence in our own abilities, plus the fear factor, which appears to be the only UK government propaganda used nowadays....and that those who were not convinced in either direction by then, would be more likely to vote for the devil they knew. I was, however, pleasantly surprised at the undecideds who came in after voting to say they had voted YES when it came to the crunch.......but obviously more took what they considered the safer option.

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 13:00
Suspect squidge is probably thinking that there will not be a time scale for another referendum fixed in the manifesto for the 2016 Parliament,(though I think maybe an "indyref#2 when the time is right" statement wouldn't hurt) but if things carry on as they are here in the UK, and I see little sign that they won't, there will probably be one in the 2020 manifesto. I, personally, hope it won't come before then, because we do need the four years and more to have workable plan Bs for everything, so Westminster can't implement Project Fear again. Last time we were asked, in the YES shop in my area, more questions than we had definitive answers for.....so now we know the questions, we have to provide clear answers....or as clear as answers, on economic matters in particular, can ever be. I only hope that in the next few years, they consult not just the politicians, party members and paid pundits, but also those who knocked on doors and manned the YES hubs and know, first hand, that the questions answered in the Q&A on the last White Paper were not the kinds of questions that most punters were asking.

I must admit, I never thought we would win last time, not even when that single poll put us ahead, and FB was exploding with optimism. I always thought that, even without the VOW, in the end, it would come down to confidence in our own abilities, plus the fear factor, which appears to be the only UK government propaganda used nowadays....and that those who were not convinced in either direction by then, would be more likely to vote for the devil they knew. I was, however, pleasantly surprised at the undecideds who came in after voting to say they had voted YES when it came to the crunch.......but obviously more took what they considered the safer option.

I would agree with your very honest summation, drop the project fear terms though, as it belittles the type of people who as you say couldn't get clear answers from the yes side so did you honestly expect people to agree and vote yes on blind faith ? ....project fear...you mean UK "defence and counter arguements", as you say, get believable answers to the real issues that worried people and still do...currency, EU membership timing and the economy dont expect rational people to swallow the nonsense and non answers that was being pumped out by Salmond at the last referendum.

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 13:18
I would agree with your very honest summation, drop the project fear terms though, as it belittles the type of people who as you say couldn't get clear answers from the yes side so did you honestly expect people to agree and vote yes on blind faith ? ....project fear...you mean UK "defence and counter arguements", as you say, get believable answers to the real issues that worried people and still do...currency, EU membership timing and the economy dont expect rational people to swallow the nonsense and non answers that was being pumped out by Salmond at the last referendum.

Oh the vow....complete nonsense to me anything that falls out of Browns mouth from my view has to be taken with a large pinch of salt, the vow / Brown certainly influenced voters in the general election.....not.

RWB
05-Sep-15, 14:17
drop the project fear terms though, as it belittles the type of people who as you say couldn't get clear answers from the yes side so did you honestly expect people to agree and vote yes on blind faith ? ....project fear...you mean UK "defence and counter arguements", as you say, get believable answers to the real issues that worried people and still do...currency, EU membership timing and the economy dont expect rational people to swallow the nonsense and non answers that was being pumped out by Salmond at the last referendum.

to quote yourself yesterday on the Paul Monaghan thread ...


yessers = moonies and scientoligists : brainwashed

sorry, who's 'belittling' who ?

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 14:22
to quote yourself yesterday on the Paul Monaghan thread ...



sorry, who's 'belittling' who ?

Ok fair point

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 14:26
Ok fair point

But come one, people voting on blind faith, swallowing 100% the party line and it is almost a cult.....but I accept that there are SNP voters who have their doubts, so apologies not all SNP voters are members of a cult but a cult has arisen around hard core yessers....where no critiscm is allowed...

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 15:22
Funny how we now see people who were so vociferous during the referendum campaign that they had all the answers and gave incredibly verbose answers to every conceivable point now accepting that infact they didn't have the answers to them.
Does this mean they just plain and simply lied or where being fed information from another place that wasn't enitely truthful.
It's all very well keep harping on about " project fear " but as of yet I've not met one person who was swayed by fear or took any notice of the vow.
Those are nationalist myths perpetrated by themselves to try and explain away why the majority of people didn't vote the way they wanted.

What we should actually be asking is how many of those who voted for independence based on the lies espoused by the SNP during the campaign would have done so had the truth been known.

We haven't taken any legal advice on the EU

We Have no credible answer on currency

We Haven't a clue how much business we will lose

We Have no credible answers on the economy

We have no answers on NATO

We have no idea how many business's will relocate South

We have no idea how your mortgages, savings, pensions will be affected

Oil forecasts are purely hypothetical based on wishes and prayers

Now that is just a sample of the bare faced lies told to us by the SNP during the campaign how can we trust politicians who play so fast and loose with the truth.

Day after day after day on the org we had vicious debates with a few people sitting like oracles of all that is Independence telling everyone that had every single answer covered in minute detail.

Seems it was all no more than hot air and wishful thinking.

On the most important consitutional issue most have ever voted on they have to accept one side the SNP lied to them over and over and over again.

On every form of media known they lied then lied some more.

And people seriously think they are a party to fit for power.

RWB
05-Sep-15, 16:10
we all know who you're against, but who are you in favour of ?

if not SNP, then who do you think should be running Scotland ?

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 16:29
we all know who you're against, but who are you in favour of ? if not SNP, then who do you think should be running Scotland ?Currently I'd prefer the lib dems to SNP

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 17:07
Funny how we now see people who were so vociferous during the referendum campaign that they had all the answers and gave incredibly verbose answers to every conceivable point now accepting that infact they didn't have the answers to them.
Does this mean they just plain and simply lied or where being fed information from another place that wasn't enitely truthful.
It's all very well keep harping on about " project fear " but as of yet I've not met one person who was swayed by fear or took any notice of the vow.
Those are nationalist myths perpetrated by themselves to try and explain away why the majority of people didn't vote the way they wanted.

What we should actually be asking is how many of those who voted for independence based on the lies espoused by the SNP during the campaign would have done so had the truth been known.

We haven't taken any legal advice on the EU

We Have no credible answer on currency

We Haven't a clue how much business we will lose

We Have no credible answers on the economy

We have no answers on NATO

We have no idea how many business's will relocate South

We have no idea how your mortgages, savings, pensions will be affected

Oil forecasts are purely hypothetical based on wishes and prayers

Now that is just a sample of the bare faced lies told to us by the SNP during the campaign how can we trust politicians who play so fast and loose with the truth.

Day after day after day on the org we had vicious debates with a few people sitting like oracles of all that is Independence telling everyone that had every single answer covered in minute detail.

Seems it was all no more than hot air and wishful thinking.

On the most important consitutional issue most have ever voted on they have to accept one side the SNP lied to them over and over and over again.

On every form of media known they lied then lied some more.

And people seriously think they are a party to fit for power.

Suspect that people were being fed information that wasn't entirely truthful.

BetterTogether
05-Sep-15, 17:11
Suspect that people were being fed information that wasn't entirely truthful.Maybe those guilty can be put in the dock after they've finished with Alistair Carmichael as that seems what SNP voters think is an appropriate recourse and they are now setting a precedent with him. Could be good for the country to see politicians who lie dragged through the legal system certainly would cleanse the SNP ranks somewhat.

Oddquine
05-Sep-15, 18:26
I would agree with your very honest summation, drop the project fear terms though, as it belittles the type of people who as you say couldn't get clear answers from the yes side so did you honestly expect people to agree and vote yes on blind faith ? ....project fear...you mean UK "defence and counter arguements", as you say, get believable answers to the real issues that worried people and still do...currency, EU membership timing and the economy dont expect rational people to swallow the nonsense and non answers that was being pumped out by Salmond at the last referendum.

It wasn't the YES side who named it, according to the MSM. It was coined by Better Together insiders themselves.....we just adopted it as truth.

What else anyway could you call the scare stories about international agencies like the EU and UN, and foreign Governments turning us into Billy No Mates; about no foreign embassies and as a result, if we go abroad there is more chance of our children being abducted or forced into marriage; no access to Great Ormond Street Hospital; the gross exaggeration of the cost of setting up Government Departments, many of which we have the nucleus of already; pensions not being safe (stories Conservative MSPs were still telling people on the street the day before the referendum); the stories regurgitated from 1979, re border/passport controls etc; not to mention the more ridiculous ones......... No Strictly or Doctor Who; bombing Glasgow Airport, our relations in rUK becoming foreigners, having to drive on the wrong side of the road, the pandas being repatriated, the rUK annexing Faslane, or the more contradictory ones, depending on who was talking, like you won't get to join the EU, but you will be forced to join the Euro; we will be a third world economy because the Labour Party overspent on the Edinburgh Trams and the building of Holyrood; and a lot more besides, but Project Fear?

Each one on its own might have been surmountable, as a lot of it was certainly idiotic, if the YES side ever got a fair chance to respond to them in the same media which was bombarding us daily with, all too often, lies and misrepresentation, but when the headlines everywhere in the MSM pretty well every day for two years was variations on the "you are doomed if you don't hold on tight to our hand" theme....of course it is going to impinge. It can't help but impinge. It was all designed to impinge.It is going to impinge because, as Goebbels said “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”, or, if you like “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Why else do PR and advertising companies and jobs exist if the majority of the general public world wide aren't gullible enough to fall for their productions and buy into what they are selling, be that a product, a service or a the belly-burps of a UK Government?

Better together had no counter arguments which did not consist of words which actually meant "we're not going to co-operate, and will encourage everybody else we have influence with not to co-operate, so you will face x,y or z consequences" or " you can't afford to do x,y or z, because these figures based on how much your share of our bloated Government machinery and war mongering propensity is, shows clearly you can't." Or if they did, nobody on here offered them at the time.

Most of the questions were less about independence per se...more about the minutiae of how some of the bits which could have been termed the SNP manifesto for after independence would impinge on their lives....not so much about the big things, bar maybe the state pensions, though most of them were happy enough when they read the letter from the Pensions minister...and, in our area, defence, with a fair few coming in to ask, if we voted for independence, would they be able to transfer to the Scottish Defence Force. However, most people who are not firmly in one camp or the other, wanted more to know the effect on them as individuals, and that was what wasn't answerable, as so much depended on how vindictive the Westminster Government was going to be during negotiations..and their attitude during the run-up did not bode well for a quick and harmonious outcome.....which is why we need time to sort out a Plan B before indyref#2 in case Westminster does pouting and huffing.

rob murray
05-Sep-15, 19:57
It wasn't the YES side who named it, according to the MSM. It was coined by Better Together insiders themselves.....we just adopted it as truth.

What else anyway could you call the scare stories about international agencies like the EU and UN, and foreign Governments turning us into Billy No Mates; about no foreign embassies and as a result, if we go abroad there is more chance of our children being abducted or forced into marriage; no access to Great Ormond Street Hospital; the gross exaggeration of the cost of setting up Government Departments, many of which we have the nucleus of already; pensions not being safe (stories Conservative MSPs were still telling people on the street the day before the referendum); the stories regurgitated from 1979, re border/passport controls etc; not to mention the more ridiculous ones......... No Strictly or Doctor Who; bombing Glasgow Airport, our relations in rUK becoming foreigners, having to drive on the wrong side of the road, the pandas being repatriated, the rUK annexing Faslane, or the more contradictory ones, depending on who was talking, like you won't get to join the EU, but you will be forced to join the Euro; we will be a third world economy because the Labour Party overspent on the Edinburgh Trams and the building of Holyrood; and a lot more besides, but Project Fear?

Each one on its own might have been surmountable, as a lot of it was certainly idiotic, if the YES side ever got a fair chance to respond to them in the same media which was bombarding us daily with, all too often, lies and misrepresentation, but when the headlines everywhere in the MSM pretty well every day for two years was variations on the "you are doomed if you don't hold on tight to our hand" theme....of course it is going to impinge. It can't help but impinge. It was all designed to impinge.It is going to impinge because, as Goebbels said “The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”, or, if you like “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Why else do PR and advertising companies and jobs exist if the majority of the general public world wide aren't gullible enough to fall for their productions and buy into what they are selling, be that a product, a service or a the belly-burps of a UK Government?

Better together had no counter arguments which did not consist of words which actually meant "we're not going to co-operate, and will encourage everybody else we have influence with not to co-operate, so you will face x,y or z consequences" or " you can't afford to do x,y or z, because these figures based on how much your share of our bloated Government machinery and war mongering propensity is, shows clearly you can't." Or if they did, nobody on here offered them at the time.

Most of the questions were less about independence per se...more about the minutiae of how some of the bits which could have been termed the SNP manifesto for after independence would impinge on their lives....not so much about the big things, bar maybe the state pensions, though most of them were happy enough when they read the letter from the Pensions minister...and, in our area, defence, with a fair few coming in to ask, if we voted for independence, would they be able to transfer to the Scottish Defence Force. However, most people who are not firmly in one camp or the other, wanted more to know the effect on them as individuals, and that was what wasn't answerable, as so much depended on how vindictive the Westminster Government was going to be during negotiations..and their attitude during the run-up did not bode well for a quick and harmonious outcome.....which is why we need time to sort out a Plan B before indyref#2 in case Westminster does pouting and huffing.

Sane people laughed at pandas...Dr WHo.... driving on the other side of the road.... youve summed it all up in your qoute..... "However, most people who are not firmly in one camp or the other, wanted more to know the effect on them as individuals, and that was what wasn't answerable,..totally agree with you... ECONOMY CURRENCY EU and why, as was this the case Salmond couldnt answer these big issues and damaged your cause immeasurably ? I suggest that you now recognise that the majority of the no camp were no because 1 The big issues were avoided /not answered b Salmon blatantly told falsehoods c The economic predictions as based on volatile oil prices were unbelievable d Wanted to retain British citizenship.

roshep
06-Sep-15, 14:32
Go back to bed Redsnapper.