View Full Version : V what Day?
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Anyone else feel that the 60th Anniversary of VE Day seems to have been dumbed down?
Ten years ago there was VE Day AND VJ Day but this government has decided to combine the two into a VEJ Day in June. Its's not asking too much for us to honour the few remaining veterans on this the 60th anniversary. There will be few if any left alive on the 65th or 70th so why could this government not have made the effort?
Some sources state that it has been done due to the armed forces leave situation or some such codswallop. They can't give up a days leave for these brave men and women? Men and women who saw their friends, brothers, husbands and relatives give up their lives for the freedom we cherish today?
And then we see the celebrations held in Paris today - at least the French recognise the importance of their liberation. What do we get? Charles laying a wreath at the Cenotaph with a march past in one of London's parks?!!!
[mad]
Could it be that the media are not hyping it up as much as the 50th anniversary? All the dignatories including prince charles and Bush were doing their bit, so the activity of remembrance is still being done.
I think it is tempting to assume that the 60th is being dumbed down rather than the reality that it may not be.
IMHO, it is a delicate issue about the amount of remembrance that we should devote to wars long past. There has to be a cut off point where we should stop observing all these anniversaries of D-day, VJ day, VE day etc. From now on I would like to see the 11th November being a National day of remembrance for all conflicts, and for it to be taken seriously by everyone.
But I do think it is important to have observances to the anniversaries of WW2 whilst there are survivors of that conflict still with us but in a proportional way to the number of those survivors.
Isn't Remembrance Sunday already being used for all conflicts?
We can start to tone down the celebrations of WWI & II after the last of the veterans has departed this mortal coil. While one still lives we owe it to them to remember.
But by toning it down are we in a way relegating history to the back of the drawer?
Then of course there are the more modern wars we have been involved in. Will the verterans of Iraq be denied their chance to march past the Cenotaph?
Then of course there are the more modern wars we have been involved in. Will the verterans of Iraq be denied their chance to march past the Cenotaph?
You have raised a point that is IMHO not comparable to the main thrust of this thread. The Iraq war and all other wars since WW2 have not dealt with the clear and immediate survival of this Nation. So, although I feel it important to observe their sacrifice on Remembrance day and their justified march past the Cenotaph, I do not think we should observe a separate day of observation to those conflicts that we do with WW2.
If I may diverge a little which may stir up some comments, IMHO again, if we keep observing anniversaries ad infinitum then the anniversaries become more important than the original conflict and eventually become an object of controversy themselves. Two examples of this is Germany's far right making political demonstrations at VE day and more perversely, the Orange order's obsession with the Battle of the Boyne. Both examples here are a complete powder keg of civil unrest that will become a day of hatred for evermore, unless something is done about them sooner rather than later.
FoosumBrute
08-May-05, 22:50
Surely the fundamental difference with all modern wars in which Britain has fought since WW2, is that the common man in the street was not conscripted into these.
WW2 and the Great War was mainly made up of ordinary people forced into active service - no bloody option. Whereas nowadays people join the army of their own free will - mainly people who would otherwise probably end up in borstal or prison if they stayed in civilian life.
I raised the point of the Iraq vets because during the Remembrance Sunday Cenotaph ceremony there are Falkland veterans. And Korea vets.
As de facto custodian of Remembrance in the UK, the Legion is charged - under the terms of its 'Royal Charter' - with organising 'Festivals of Remembrance, services and parades to perpetuate the memory of sacrifices made during service with Our Armed Forces in war and peace'
Remembrance Sunday will probably always be linked to the World Wars ( it was created in aftermath of WWI) and the relatives of those who died in the conflict will probably always visit their graves if the have one.
I doubt if we will have a VI day - I would hardly call what has happened in Iraq a victory and the History Channel may run programmes on the Falklands War on the anniversary of the liberation of that far off isle...
As for observing ad infinitum, you and I will not know what goes on after we have shuffled off to whatever awaits us.
But if Germany does not remember their history then they may well repeat it - as the saying goes "Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it".
They may eventually just observe a minutes silence every ten years, but at least the kids might ask "Why?"
As for the problems in Northern Ireland I fear they will be festering for many years to come, until the two communities have shed their hatred of each other and they can live in peace next door to each other.
One of the main reasond for remembering is lest we forget. Mind you, remembering doesnt stand the test when I see how readily countries will stilll fall out with eachother and randomly kill anyone who gets in the way.
Theres no reason why WW11 should get any more respect than the Falklands or Ireland or Bannockburn apart from the numbers and the methods involved.
Every war whether big or small is catastrophic for the people involved but it seems to me like no amount of remembering history stops the killing from happening.
If we are to stop killing, remembering is not the way to do it. That doesnt mean cermonies like todays shouldnt happen but other means need to be explored before the killing will stop, if ever.
I expect if killing ever does stop remembering will have played its part in the process.
PS Whats IMLO? :confused
It's IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
Orange order's obsession with the Battle of the Boyne
Did this battle not ensure Civil & Religous liberties for all?? Maybe more than the Orange Order should celebrate it.
Gleeber, off course WW2 gains more respect rather any other war, have you ever spoken to anyone, or read anything about what those young men & women did for this and other countries. They gave us the chance to carry on freely and freedom of speech. Take this forum for example, if we hadn't won the war we would never be on it speaking our minds.
All wars are devastating, but never again should we see the atrocities that WW2 gave the world.
Countries will always go to war especially when money(oil) is involved. I do not agree with war but I do agree with remembering as in the furture it will be our sons and daughters who go and fight whether we agree or not.
You seem so sure of yourself about that Alli. Mind you thats how wars start. :D
I would probably have agreed with you until a few years ago but not now. I dont want to take anything away from WW11 veterans or any of the traditions involved with that war but the truth is all that stuff detracts from the sacrifices of thousands of others who have fought in wars or conflicts since and even before then.
I believe they are all due equal respect for their actions.
I remember being in Top Joes one night when this old guy was gurning at 4 German Tourists, I asked what his problem was and I was told that he had to fight those b@$t@rd$ during the war and he didn’t think they should be in the pub. Now my Grandfather lost his leg in the 2nd World War and never had a bad word to say about Germans……….it seems the reasons that they were fighting have been lost on some of the veterans.
If we dont remember all conflicts we run the risk of forgetting what terrible things war is. That means we run the risk of forgetting the horror of war. As our children and their children grow up there is a danger that they will forget the 2nd world war and remembering others who have died in other conflicts will make it more real and recent for them. Everyone who gives their life in the service of their country should be remembered in an act of rememberence
Scotsboy, maybe the horror of war left that old man bitter with all he saw. I for one don't mind the Germans they were the same as any other soldier, doing what they did under orders from their superiors. Not every german soldier was Hilter.Some german soldiers also suffered under the hands of their leader.
Gleeber,as l said before, freedom of speech etc. I am very sure off myself. I'm Moselinis sister!!
I am not taking anything away from the wars since WW2, but, if we remember them, then maybe lessons can be learnt. I take it you don't have any family members left that were in the WW2. :~(
Orange order's obsession with the Battle of the Boyne
Did this battle not ensure Civil & Religous liberties for all?? Maybe more than the Orange Order should celebrate it.
You are right it did not
[evil]
Really, would you care to ellaborate our Keltic friend? Maybe you could point us in the direction ofa society with greater political and religous freedoms? Please say the ROI :roll:
Mmmm jumping to conclusions there about my Celtic (spelt with a C not a K that’s the English for you can’t figure how a C can sound Kish) persuasions, could also be Native American??
The BOB was an oppressive battle it was to make sure that Catholicism was forever thwarted in England. As you probable know it was part of the Glorious Revolution, which to simplify was all about uprooting James and installing William. Get rid of the Catholics put the Protestants back in power. Oh and lets not forget the call for the abolishment of Episcopalism, great one that turned out to be where the Presbyterians launched an all out vendetta against the Episcopalians. Yes and then there was the little bitty that allowed freedom of worship to Protestant Nonconformists; Catholics, Jews, and Unitarians were excluded from its benefits and Nonconformists were not allowed full civil rights, including the right to hold public office, until 1828. Yes I can see all the freedom and liberalisms that you talk about here.
What about BOB itself, it was a great chance for the invaders into Eire to make sure they controlled the country and the lands that they took from the native people. It also represented the subjugation (so they thought) of the Catholic Church in Ireland and the Irish themselves by these invaders. Yip Ireland enjoyed so much freedom at the hands of the English and the Protestants. I suppose if you call killing and stealing and religious oppression of other peoples properties (and their country) will and freedom, then it is well represented by the “BOB”
[mad]
A wee bit mixed up and confused there Setanta - don't want to bore everyone with the details, but I think you may find that "Protestant" was narrowly defined as Church of Ireland (which is Episcopalian by the way) by the1692 Penal Laws, which actually had effects on Presbyterians, Quakers, & Unitarians..........now what was the name of the Pope that backed William III :roll:
Not as mixed up and confused as you may think Scotboy, just trying to keep it simple. But maybe I should have read it more closely and not rushed it. I was actually referring to episcopacy. I was also referring to Presbyterians. Remember we are writing from completely two different takes on this time in history, what you see is not an indigenous Irish view. I also don’t want to get bogged down in details but the rest stands :cool:
Fair play, and I was referring to the good that came from the BOB with reference to a Constitutional Monarchy etc, rather than sectairian divides that came out of class and political conflict rather than religion.
Fair play, and I was referring to the good that came from the BOB with reference to a Constitutional Monarchy etc, rather than sectairian divides that came out of class and political conflict rather than religion.
Yes I guessed that was where you were coming from. But mention BOB (in your context) to any one of those people marching in July and you will get a very confused look, :lol: Another way to look at it is anything that was noble happened in England only. The Scottish and Irish takes were a lot different.
He he don’t you think the whole episode was pure treason and of course the victors wrote the history? :evil
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